Trending With Dr. Pam – Charlie King, Dr Mariette Jansen

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr here on men's and women's radio stations. Now, every fortnight I want to tell you what we're going to be doing. We're going to be doing a show that I've called trending with Dr. Pam. And I want to take the trends that actually can relate back to our lives. It's not just all about the politicians and the celebrities who are trending, but so many of the issues that they're trending about actually impact us. So that's going to be the main thrust of the show. And a little bit about myself. If you haven't met me before anywhere, I'm a psychologist and self help expert. So with that broad brushstroke, I can actually tackle sort of a wide range of topics. I was in the NHS for quite some time working at hospitals, but I work privately and in the media now, so I hope that we can get lots of personal stories, lots of advice and comments on the topics we're going to cover. Now, I have two fantastic guests joining me for every show and today I have someone that you'll probably recognize from TV and I also have an author of a book on narcissism. So if you have a narcissist in your life, you definitely want to listen up for that one. So as you can probably hear, I've got a head cold. Yes, I hope you're all well. Everyone who's listening and not struggling with a cold like I am right now just have to hope I don't lose my voice during the show. Now, I'm so thrilled to be here and I'm really delighted to welcome my first guest who is a dear friend. And as I say, you've probably seen him on TV things like MTV's Body SOS and on ITV this Morning and many other shows. You'll see him across a range of radio shows and podcasts and magazines. He never stops working. But what I love about him is that he's got such a, I guess I say soulfulness. And he can talk about any subject from the heart, from his own experience or he often has really great things to say about them. He's Charlie King and I want to tell you about his social media before we actually start getting into the topics. You can find him on Twitter arlieking85, on Instagram charlie_king85. Hello, darling. Hey, Pam, how are you? Oh, I'm really well seeing you. You're going to do all the talking. I'm going to be here to save you. Don't worry. Now we've done so many shows together on Instagram Live. You've hosted me on those. I've hosted you on radio stations and we've talked all sorts of well being and sort of mental health and relationship issues. And I know you always seem to, you really are so thoughtful about these things which is why I love talking to you on shows. Thank you. And where do you think that sort of thoughtfulness comes from? I think it's just a case of being very aware and I've always been that type of person, very thorough, like to explore whatever it is that I'm interested in. Whether it's about myself or other subjects that are close to my heart or things that interest me. I've always just been someone that wants to get to the root of things that makes me very inquisitive and I always try to search for the answers whether it's internally or externally. And that's just led into my career and everything that I do in my day to day life. I know and I want to come to things about your career after we hit the trending topics because what we're going to do is every show I'm taking things that have trended in the last day or two and the first thing I want to put across to you is something a lot of people will have been through. Now it's alleged that the actor Dominic west got a little bit close maybe to his co star Lily James. They were working on a film together. Now he's stood by, you know, he and his wife Catherine Fitzgerald went out and did a sort of piece to camera about their marriage is strong. So using them as a headline. I don't want to talk about them because we don't know what's going on. But it's about that whole thing of people have something like 40% of people have been cheated on. People have got very confused about what's the difference between a full on affair or maybe flirting online. And I think this is a big thing. It's trended for a long time. I wonder, have you ever had any personal experience of being cheated on? I have, I actually haven't thankfully. But I've been around people that have and obviously I, I can recognize and see the damage that it can cause in so many different ways. And it's a very challenging, upsetting, emotionally turmoil thing to have to go through even from just an observation point of view. So I can understand the impact it can really have on an individual. That's the kind of victim to it. Yeah. And, you know, my experience goes way back to when I was 18 and I was going out with someone who was 21 and we were very serious. And, you know, I actually showed up at his flat one day to find that he had someone in his bed. Oh, wow. I mean that because he had thought I'd flown back to America for Christmas already. He'd got the date wrong. He'd sort of said his goodbyes to me and I thought, oh, shut up and just say one more goodbye to him. Knock on the door. You know, he eventually gets to the door and it's like the look on his face. He didn't even have to tell me. Now, I was only 18, but I still remember it now. I felt horrendous. You know, it really just broke my heart in pieces. And it took a long time to trust after that. So I think a lot of people going through this, you know, feel it. It takes a long time to heal. And if they want to stay together, you know, how do they heal that broken Trust? Now, evidently, 60% of couples do survive, you know, affairs and they do decide to stay together, but I often wonder how happily they do that. Really, it's because it's such a. It's such a big deal to a relationship. Now, what I want to ask you is, what do you think about flirting? Where do people draw the line with flirting with someone when you're in another relationship? I mean, it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because there's always that fine line. And especially in this day of social media and the fact that even being bombarded with people's images and life every day, by following them on social media, you kind of get to see a little insight into what other people are up to. And you can start really getting caught up in the liking of the photographs and purposely searching for people and watching their stories and seeing them on their holidays in their bathing suits and exercise gear and whatever it is that you like about that person. And I think it can get into really rocky grounds very quickly. For me personally, if I was to be in a relationship and my partner was liking individuals all the time and commenting on photographs or being a bit flattery, bantery with them if it's. Especially if it's someone that we don't know, even that would affect me. I'm all for a little bit of a cheeky giggle here and there. I think it's quite a nice thing when you're socially out and about, when we're allowed to be a little bit Cheeky here and there. I think that's fine if it's part of your personality and it's very harmless. But you've got to make sure it doesn't impact the person that you're with. Or your relationship is so solid and strong that you can almost just be like, oh, we'll get on with it. And that the kind of way that I have been in the past when I was with a partner that was very outwardly flirty and had that real cheeky chappy way about him. As long as, you know, they're not going to, you know, actually act on that. Because a lot of people use that, oh well, I'm a cheeky chappy thing. You know, straight men, gay men use that sort of, you know, oh, it's just a bit of harmless flirting. And I suppose if they repeatedly do that, it undermines someone's self esteem. I think. Me, I would turn around and say, let's stop doing that. It's not making me feel good, you know, and I would air that personally. So I think it's all about the respect aspect, isn't it? Yeah. And I think a good rule of thumb is if, when you're online and you flirt with someone, if you'd be happy if your partner saw that, that would be the rule of thumb. So if you know, in your mind, uh, oh no, my partner really wouldn't be happy with that kind of flirting, then it should be a no go Z. But if, as you say, you're quite a cheeky person and you flirt with everybody, you know, the postman, you know, the grocery delivery man, whoever, you know, that maybe that's not so offensive. But I do say if it makes you feel guilty, then you probably shouldn't be doing those flirtations online. Now, one little, one final bit before we go into the next trend. What would you advise a friend if they'd been cheated on? I mean, obviously everything's very circumstantial in the sense of I've been around people that have been cheated on and their relationship was job done and I've actually witnessed very close to home a cheating scenario and they actually worked through it and they, they carried on for another 10 years, you know, happy. So I think it's all about what those individuals involved can do to try and make it work. I've realized as I've gotten older, and I think that is the beautiful thing about getting older and wiser is I'm not so quick now to come to my conclusions. I think it's really important to weigh up everything. I'm not for cheating. I don't like it. I'm not a fan of anyone that does it. I understand now, though, that it happens. And as we look at the statistics, it happens a great deal. It's easily done. But at the same time, in the bigger picture, I like to really try and weigh things up and try and figure out what led to that, what went wrong? Does this mean that this is totally over? Or was it a slip up that we could potentially work on if both parties were really invested in building that trust again? See, that's what makes you a great friend, because you would be looking at as I would do to a friend, you know, looking at, well, what was this all about? Is it worth saving? How can you save it? And anybody who's watching and listening now, I'd love to know what your experience experience has been. Please do send in those comments to the men's radio station, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and we can get those comments out and talk about them now. The next trend that I wanted to tackle was Billie Eilish. You know, the American singer was body body shamed terribly on Twitter over the last day, where some awful man who's like 30 and she's like 18 said something like, she's now got the body of a 30 something wine mom. Like a woman who's been drinking too much wine has let herself go. And I just thought. And it trended with people on both sides saying, oh, come on. It's just a bit of banter and other people saying, how can you body shame an 18 year old or anyone? And I just wanted this whole thing about shaming. I think we get shamed about a lot of things. I've had friends who've come out who feel that they've been shamed by some of their family about that they come out as gay or less lesbian, you know, lgbtq, whatever it is. I've had people shamed. I wrote a book on emotional eating and I know people have been shamed about their body weight, shamed about all sorts of things. And I wonder, have you had an experience or any close friends who, you know, who've been through this sort of body shaming? Yeah. I mean, I have a friend in the media who's constantly under fire about her weight and people are always commenting on the weight loss and the weight gain and everything else around it. Obviously, working in the fitness industry as well as everything else that I do, I hear stories all the time which spurs people to come and meet a fitness professional or expert, because something's been said that's left a lasting impact on them and their confidence and self esteem. So it's something that I'm very aware of and I'm very passionate about in the sense of I do not like it, I do not tolerate it, and I can't stand people that feel they've got the right to publicly comment on someone else's aesthetics, body shape, body composition, whatever. And this is where, yeah, social media is an absolute curse. Because the problem is now everyone feels that they've got the right. And on one hand, you do have a right to an opinion or a point of view, but at the same time, everyone feels that they can just say what they want without it having any real repercussion. And once you put it out there, you're putting it out there to the universe. And it. You might think that it's only gonna go nowhere, really, to be honest. And then as soon as the fans or the armies behind these artists or someone starts retweeting it or tweeting it or reposting blows, and then it goes massive and it becomes a massive thing. And then what you've said has caused a lot of damage and a lot of opinion. And it doesn't just happen to celebrities. This is the thing. It's. I know people, having worked, you know, as a life coach and psychologist, I know people who. And having written the book on emotional eating and where I interviewed hundreds of people literally about their experiences of emotional eating and why they emotionally eat. And there's a horrible cycle that when you're shamed, you head back for the biscuit tin because it's your go to kind of gut response. And people can be shamed about all sorts of things. They can be shamed. I've seen people, like on Twitter, where I'm most active, rather than Instagram, I've seen people shame someone for being stupid. And with my dyslexia, I've had people say to me, you've written that sentence back to front. I mean, I've had that happen so many times on my eight years on Twitter. And I always fire back, I'm dyslexic. Hey, that's what happens. If I don't correct it before I tweet it, it will often be back to front. Yeah, very nervous, can't it. And this is the thing I don't like, is that people can have that impact on you, especially strangers and people that are just the keyboard warriors that we call them, that have nothing else better to do than try and bring down someone else. And so the body shaming thing I feel is really damaging and it's damaging, it's just not on. And people need to know and respect the limits. Exactly. And why even as a psychologist, I wonder the motivation why someone even would post about an 18 year old who looked to me like just a shapely, gorgeous young woman individual, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. It says so much more about the individual than the target of their, their post. Now what advice do you give? Because I mean I always say to people and on the whole I ignore those comments myself and I'll block people who are really rude. I've just blocked someone today funny enough. But about my comments on lockdown because I'm furious with all the covidiots who have made brought more lockdowns when you know, people like myself have been going by the rules and we're the ones who then suffer too in the lockdowns. But some people just can't resist. They want to then like get involved and defend themselves. Where do you stand on that? Do you think it should be people should ignore these people, these nasty posts, they're body shaming or whatever. Shaming. Or do you think they should come back and say, you know, how dare you or whatever? What, what position do you take on that? Yeah, I think it goes back to what I said earlier, is that I don't think that anyone has the right to comment on someone else's looks or whatever it is. If we're just talking about shaming someone, it's not your right to do that. And even though social media is a public form or social form, it's got to be regulated in a way that these sort of comments can be taken down straight away or that there is that system in place where you can report anything and it gets sorted out immediately because it does have psychological effect on people. And even if I've been shamed in the past, but weirdly because I was too muscular and people were saying, oh look at you now, looking like you're on steroids. And okay. And I used to think like my God, like and even though I would just be like oh, drown the noise out, there was still that element that I was a bit like, is that what I look like now? Like, do I look like I'm, I'm taking enhancements or something? I wasn't and if I was, that would be my business anyway. But because it was going like a lot of people were saying it and people were starting to say you're going too far Stop it. I was a bit like, oh, my God, why am I letting these people's opinions affect now what I'm doing? And at the time I was working for a magazine that I was doing fitness every day. So it just so happens that my body was just really ripped. Yeah, right. So it's. It had. It had a thing. And it's really hard, I have to say, it's really hard to drown out the noise. But I think if we're looking at regular people, we just got a block delete. And obviously when it becomes famous people, and there's such an abundance of people around them, like fans or not fans, but people that have got an opinion on you because you're very well known, usually you do have a team behind you that can kind of get rid of things, but we mere mortals, we don't have those teams. Darling, don't you be fooled. I wish I can have you as my team. I'll be your team, no worries. You can bet off those people criticizing the way I word things and say, she's dyslexic, leave her alone. We all need someone to root for us. Yeah. I think my biggest point on that is on the whole, I believe in ignoring and not engaging. Because the thing is about these people, and I've seen documentaries on the minds behind the keyboard warriors. They simply don't care. In my mind, probably a lot of them are quite sociopathic. They literally have no remorse, they have no empathy or they're really emotionally infantile. Yeah. So they don't. They don't. Even if you get back at them, they won't care. They're probably just laughing your face, basically. So on the whole, I say disengage and don't get involved. Yeah. And did you ever say to someone who told you you were too ripped and what were you doing? Did you ever comment back or did you just. I had clapped back in the past and I think Jesse Nelson did a documentary for the BBC not so long ago when she was talking about being trolled and body shamed. And it's caused her a lot of problems, horrible problems. You can't help but clap back at times because you almost want to. Like, just who the hell do you think you are? But on the whole, as you just said, I think a lot of these people, they write these things and it just kind of goes into cyberspace and they don't really give it any more thought. They're not really that switched on enough. So I even write these comments. Shows what the sort of person they Are. And then B, I think that they just put it out there and they forget that it could actually go anywhere. Yeah, I think, I think you're right. Some people do forget. They actually don't think it's gonna, they're ignorant. That perfect way of describing it. They don't actually know how much pain it might cause someone. Yeah. I think in, in general, like the rule of thumb, you are right is, is to try and ignore. But there would be absolutely no denying that negative comments affect anyone. Yeah, I know because someone I was reading about someone recently who said that they can get a hundred comments after doing a show and if one is bad, they focus on that. Absolutely. I think that's really sad. You know, when I've done shows and if I, you know, have 100 comments and let's say 20 are bad, that yeah, I think you'd focus. But I would like rather focus on positive comments, you know, just, just get rid of the stuff that people are just trying to have digs or whatever. Now the next thing I, I was, I was looking at on the trends over the last day. Yeah. And this thing about Hunter Biden, Joe Biden's son. So Joe Biden, ex vice president under Obama, now running for president, leaked. There was a leak that allegedly Hunter Biden had pressured his father to do something about some business in Ukraine. So this is all alleged, as I say, but the embarrassment to the Biden campaign these last 24 hours, as you can imagine, like we have to deal with this, we have to damage, limit. And it just made me think that don't we all have someone in, say our immediate family or close friends who can be in an embarrassment or who does something that really rocks the family boat? I think this is such a kind of profound thing for most people. And I'll hold my hand up and say that in my extended family there was one person who was so rabidly political and extremely left wing that when I got married I asked him specifically not to discuss politics because he was one of those people that if he got onto politics, it doesn't matter where he was, he would cause a row. And I did not want that at my wedding. And that was really hard to have that conversation. But at the same time I thought, I don't want one of the tables at the wedding exploding because of politics. So that's my personal experience and I've had to be very careful with that relation who's in the kind of extended family, not the immediate family over the years with things like that. When we have Some sort of celebrations where there's a lot of people reminding him of that conversation. Do you have anybody like that? Yeah, I think, to be fair, every person, every family story has a person or persons like that that they just, as soon as they get their moment to stand on their soapbox, they will. And that's usually, you know, their personalities and they're very passionate about what it is that they want to say and they believe that they're right nine times out of 10. And it's always their way or what they say goes. And it is always a little bit tricky trying to, as you say, position them in family events or trying to be gentle about how they're perceived to them when you're trying to give them a bit of a heads up, like, well, look, we want you here, but we don't really want to necessarily discuss X, Y and Z. Yes, it's a hard one because I have, there's a couple of people in my family like that. And it gets to the point where you're like, I really don't want to invite them because give them a couple of red wines or something and they start going on or they hear something and then it's their ears prick up and they go straight in and then they want to get their view across and try and endorse their point or their view. So I think it's part and parcel of families and certain people, family life. We all have them in families. You know, one thing, we're sort of turning the corner towards Christmas now. This year, of course, family gatherings looks like they'll be very small with the new lockdowns, which is really tragic. But every year some newspaper will ask me, what are your tips for heading off, you know, rows at the Christmas dinner table? Because there's always one person who causes a problem. There's always someone, as we've been saying. And you're right, it's always about heading it off. And I also think, like, when I had the conversation with this family member about my wedding, you know, I started with the positive about how much I loved X, Y or Z, that, you know, don't we. We have great times when we go and do this, that or the other thing. But I do feel concerned about your passion. I use that word just as you said, your passion about politics. And that I really don't want any guests at the wedding who may not feel like you do, may not be a rabid left winger who, you know, I don't want you to engage in a political conversation. And actually, he took it pretty badly. I thought the conversation was going to go well. I thought that because I was flagging up, which is what I always advise people to. To flag up the positives. Yeah. With some, like a family member or a best friend who tends to do these things, who causes chaos, you know, or arguments. Yeah. And he didn't really take it very well. It took a couple days before we were kind of back talking and in the build up to the wedding, I was a little bit concerned, you know, what will he do? When he listened to me, it's my wedding, his wedding, I would do what he has, you know. It feels quite embarrassing, isn't it, when someone has to raise an alert and you're, in a way, you are kind of, you're not making a dig, but you're having to approach a subject which is really coming for them in their personality or how they might be perceived. So I think it takes a little bit in the ego, especially these sort of people tend to think that they're quite, you know, when they've got so much to say. Yes, very important. Therefore, when you kind of try and bring them down a notch or ask them to be a little bit wary of what they say or what, you know, their approach is to certain subjects, I think it takes a little bit of their ego that they have to kind of lick their wounds for a moment and get themselves back into their high and mighty position. Yes, high and mighty. Listen, we just have time to do that. Other trend I really wanted to get on to now, this is the oncologist, Professor Angus Dalglish came out highly, not just highly critical, but scathing about Matt Hancock, calling him shockingly ignorant in one of the papers today and saying, you know, how has he been in the job? And it made me think, looking at that story and that trend of, haven't we all worked with someone where we think, how are they still doing their job? I mean, I had an experience, I've worked in many places, hospitals, anywhere, NHS situations, across media companies, across private consultancies. And I had one person who I had to work with for a number of years who literally could never meet a deadline, could never carry their share of the load on joint projects. And it caused a lot of stress. And I tried to deal with that repeatedly. And they eventually lost their job, funny enough, not due to me, I moved on and didn't work for that company anymore. But then I heard they had eventually lost their job and doubted because other people had started to complain. And you think, how, why are they still there? You Know, it's so frustrating when you've got the stress of picking up their workload. So have you ever had to deal with that, you know, that sort of, you know, where someone is not doing their share and they're not getting back to you on time, they're not meeting deadlines, you know, that sort of thing? Yeah. I think I'm quite fortunate that I've always been my own boss. So I always set the tone of what it was that I, that I wanted to do. And then obviously I tried to lead by example and then if anyone wasn't kind of picking up their slack, so to speak, I was in a position of authority to be able to get them to, you know, dust up and get cracking and doing what it was that I wanted them to do. But I have seen it many times, I think, especially with this topic in particular. The thing is, it's really hard, isn't it, in the climate that we're in just as a general thing at the minute that no one really knows what they're doing. So everyone going back to this opinion of this one's incompetent, this one's not doing the job right, this is say, you know, the, the version of events could be handled better if X, Y and Z. It's, it's really tough this, this certain topic because I don't think anyone really knows how to handle it because we've never really had to handle it before. Not for a long, long time in, you know, in our generation, so to speak. Such a difficult situation that we're all in. But in regards to just general day to day life, I think that again, it always goes back to individuals. And this is why the one thing that kind of baffles me at times is when people, they moan about hierarchies and things like that. And I think it just goes back to individuals and their kind of assertiveness, their duty of care, their passion into their jobs, how they want to be seen, how thorough that is, that they want to be, how attentive to everything. And going back to me as a person, I've always tried to think of everything. So I know that every box is ticked and I'm not. I'm very similar in that I know you and I, when we're planning a show or whatever, we are both covering it. Yeah, we want to be thorough and I like to lead by example. And unfortunately, or not even unfortunately, but I think that's why we sit here now and we get to do amazing jobs and we get to do all different things is because we're a testimony to our work ethic, how we are, how people like us. And then when we're working with, you know, different production companies and radio stations and magazines and on television or even in our jobs, in gyms or in clinics, we. We speak, we hold ourselves in such a way. And I think that that's why we are where we are. And then there's, unfortunately, are people that like to shortcut, that don't really have that due diligence, that don't really have that, that attention to detail. Yeah. And you think with the case of Matt Hancock getting coming under this scathing criticism today, and of course, his boss is Boris Johnson. You know, what's Boris thinking about the way Matt has handled it? What's Matt thinking about the way Boris has handled it? Back to what the situation I was in. I actually, you know, had felt that the manager just didn't know what to do with this person because apart from that, it was, you know, she was a nice person, but she couldn't do the job. So I think you're kind of stuck sometimes with professionalism and the personal side of someone that you like, but professionally you don't like them. Yeah, just a quick one for you. I mean, I. Because we're running out of time quickly. I could talk forever about this. You have such a holistic sort of approach to your training, and how do you bring that to your clients? Well, the thing that I always try and do now, and as we move forward, especially from lockdown and where we are now, is that we don't want to take exercise especially and put pressure on it. We just want to look after ourselves, and that is doing the right things every day to make us feel better. And it's not a case of feeling like you've got a gun to your head and that you've got to do X, Y and Z. So I try and get this more of a calm approach to things. And I find that when especially my clients and what I do on social media is with that approach, people seem to really engage because it takes out that fear and it takes out the pressure element to it that, oh, my God, I've got to do this, I've got to do that, and I'm done if I'm going to be able to do it. Whereas I'm like, let's see what we can do. We're going to work to the best that we can, and we'll obviously always try and improve as time goes on, but ultimately we want this to Just to be a bit sorry, to be a positive experience as something that you bring into your life day to day. And I think that when people have that light bulb moment, they're like, actually, yeah, it doesn't, we don't have to compare ourselves to anyone else. This is just about me, my body, my ability. And it just seems to be working, Pam. So I love it. I love it. And of course, Pete, you've got a huge social media following and people can find you on Twitter arlieking85 and on Instagram charlie_king85 and you show such responsibility to your followers and I think that's fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me today on trending Dr. Pam, thanks for Charlie. Thank you. Now I'm going to be moving on, saying goodbye to Charlie, to my next guest. I've got my very official looking clipboard here because I want to make sure I get her introduction correctly. I'm going to be joined by Dr. Marriott Jansen. She's a life coach, psychotherapist and the author of the best selling and award winning self help book From Victim to Victor, the Narcissism Survival Guide. And you can find her at Dr. Distress and on Twitter and on Instagram mariettejanson and on Facebook again, she's Dr. Distress tips and I'm delighted to welcome her to the show. Hello, Mariette. Oh, hello Pam. How are you? I'm really well. I'm really well apart from a cold. So if I lose my voice, you keep talking, no problem. I can talk for England and I can talk for the Netherlands on top of that. That's fantastic. I love your accent. It's beautiful. So you have written this book that has been a real hit. Now often in my work I have people who talk about narcissism and they wonder if there's a narcissist in their family or their partner. Now you came to this with personal experience, so could you please share that? Yes. I think what shaped my life also affected my mother was a narcissist or is a narcissist. I don't know if she's still alive. So let's say she was a narcissist. And really my whole life was focused around the desire and the hope to please her, to get her love, to get confirmation from her, to have a relationship with her. That must been really painful to feel that you were always trying because we like to think of our parents giving us the unconditional love that everybody talks about. So do you have any particular memories of you know, what you would try and do to gain that sort of love and affection. I think when I was really young, I didn't understand what was happening. And in our family, everybody ran around my mother to do things for her. She was the center of our family. She dictated what everybody was doing. And if you don't know anything else, that's just normal. So I thought it was really normal that when I had my first job, I took money home from that, which was very, very exciting. But at least a third of that money was spent on a present for her because. Because she asked or you, or you felt you needed to. It was a bit of a double thing, you know, it was. There were lots of times that it was being said, oh, your mother is doing so much for you. It's just normal to do something back. And, you know, when you come back from your work, well, she has cooked for you and there's food in the house and, you know, the least you can do is make a big effort or make a big statement in the thank you thing. Because the thank you thing couldn't be on the way home. You were picking flowers in a park or in somebody else's garden or something and you came home. Is that because there was no money involved? There was no status involved? That did. That didn't count at all. So that doesn't come into your heads. Do you have. I was going to say, do you have any memories of her being affectionate? Like, was she affectionate when you would present her with these offerings of status or. It's typical narcissistic that narcissists don't say thank you and they don't appreciate it. They are not appreciative because they. They think they are entitled. So for them, if you do something for them, no matter how special it is and how big the effort was, it's just like, oh, well. And the attitude is almost to look for faults in it. So I've got an example which is like I was a student and my parents were having their wedding anniversary, a big one, I think 25 years or something like that. And we didn't have any money. My brother, my sister, me, we didn't have a lot of money. So. And I was always the person who came up with solution. So I thought, you know what? I'm going to embroidery a big sort of family tree type of thing. I'll tell you, it was a bloody nightmare. It took a long time. I embroider. I know how difficult it is was in my student room, you know, doing all these sort of old lady sort of embroidery stuff. But anyway, so it was a big effort. It was a very original and personal presence. So, you know, we got the money together to put it nicely in a frame, and we presented that present. And the first time she said, oh, there's a spelling mistake in my name. Oh, my gosh. Did you feel crushed or how were you quite used to it at that point? For negativity coming back, I think it numbs. I was numb to all that sort of stuff. You know, when I talk about what happens and how I survived my childhood is really. I switched off from thinking because the moment I started to think, then life didn't make sense. There were things that didn't fall into place. So. And if I wanted to discuss it, there was no space for that. I always got, you know, the treatment. So I stopped thinking, I stopped feeling because it was so painful to be dismissed time and again. And also seeing that happening in our family. My brother was mentally disabled. It was sad. Or a challenging narcissistic treatment he received. Or he had mental health issues. He had mental health issues and learning disabilities. Okay, so. And he received a narcissist narcissistic treatment, possibly even more than I did, because he didn't live up to any expectation. He was. He was a dark cloud in the sunny sky of. Of what should be the sunny sky in my mother's life. So it was it. I stopped feeling because seeing that happening, if you engage with your feelings every day, life is very, very dark. And I developed this sort of real positivity, positive outlook on everything, which I still have. But it comes really natural to me. And I think that's one of the gifts that I take away from that upbringing because it was one of my survival mechanisms. Well, I wanted to ask what you see, what you're describing, some people will really identify with. And other people say, oh, well, that's just a strong matriarch who runs her family with an iron fist or whatever. But bring it more generally, how do people identify? Let's say anyone who's listening, watching, and love to have your comments on our Twitter for men's radio station, Instagram and YouTube, Facebook, whatever. Love to see if you've been experienced what you think is narcissistic treatment. But thinking more generally, what signs should people look for? Let's say they've started a relationship with someone and they're just. Their intuition is saying something's not right. But I can't put my finger on it. What should they look for? I think There is this overall feeling that you're not comfortable in the presence of that person. And you don't even have to pinpoint exactly what it is, but they make you feel uncomfortable because you can't be who you really are. You are being manipulated. But sometimes it's so subtle that it's difficult to see that it's not possible to have an emotional connection with a narcissist. There is no. Don't think if false. A false sense that they're giving you emotional connection. Or am I getting that slightly wrong? Well, some narcissist. Very charming. I'm thinking of someone charming. Charming is behavior, is smiling, is saying. That's what they do when they meet someone. They're very interested and they say, oh, talk about you. I want to know more about you. So people then think, oh, that's a lovely person. But that's not an. That's not an emotional connection. An emotional connection is where you give and take, where you can show yourself for who you are and where someone else is also showing them for who they are. So in a new relationship, a person might have felt very charmed, but then they get that sense of something's not quite right. And as you say, the narcissist is actually not making a genuine emotional connection. I'll tell you, Pam, when it comes to a romantic relationship, the starting point there is just so fantastic, you wouldn't believe it. We are both in the London area. There would be a plane and an invitation to go for dinner in Paris. How nice would that be? Yeah, things like that, flowers all the time, text messages saying, oh, you're my soulmate. At last I found a person I need in my life. You're so fantastic. So it's all this bombardment of positive messages which is not an emotional connection. It's the game they play. And you know, it will swipe you off your feet. And the moment you think it's too good to be true, red flag. Red flag. Because exactly that. If those are the keywords, aren't they too good to be true? True. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And they can't hold that up for too long because they play the game. So the relationship needs to develop very, very quickly into, yeah, let's live together. I'm proposing you for marriage. You know, there's one person I talked to, this lady was being proposed within three weeks. Wow. You are the one for me. I have been waiting for you. I. I need to sort of confiscate you. I need to secure our relationship. And then. Then that would make Me, run a mile, perhaps respond to that. Why do you think some people respond to that? Because they perhaps have. Are quite vulnerable in some way. And so they think, wow, okay, you know, this is great. I've got someone who really wants me. Is that the problem? Yeah, there's. Narcissists are very much attracted to empath. Empathic people who are quite soft, who are willing to forgive, who are not too snappy, who won't lash out, who are willing to take up with a lot of crap, really. And, you know, that works really well for the narcissist, for an empathic person, they are actually looking to rescue someone or make their life better, make them feel better. So. So it's a. It's a project for the empath, and it's like a target for the narcissist. Interesting way to put it. Well, it's really interesting to think of it that way, that they both have a certain need, that somehow. The sad thing is, in that whole process, the narcissist is the winner because they. As the prey. So it's like they have their claws in their victim and they will break them. If you are a victim of a narcissist, you will lose your confidence, lose your sense of self. In the end, lose the joy of life and become a nervous wreck. Really? Yeah. And gaslighting. People talk about gaslighting nowadays, and I think it's a great term, and all based on the original movie about. I think a narcissist must be a great gaslighter who then tips it into, you know, oh, you're the crazy one. Hey, I've been so good all along, and now, you know, you're not giving me back or whatever. Do you find that's quite common in the people you've worked with, that they've experience that gaslighting, that. That undermining all of them. Yeah, yeah. And what it does. And this. This is the strategy of the narcissist. They are never to blame. And they communicate in a way that their victim takes the blame and thinks it's my fault. Every single victim thinks, if I do things differently, how could I do. How could I do this? Wrong. How was this? How was that? The moment you say to a narcissist, I think you were not very kind to me. Critical. Yeah. Give a little bit of critical feedback. They look around and say, how dare you even think something like that about me? Yes. So that then leaves the person who says, you were not very nice to me thinking, oh, God, was that not very nice? I Think it was just my experience. It, I just sort of was almost there. But you start questioning, don't you? You start thinking, oh my gosh, am I wrong? You know, am I expecting too much or something? Yeah, yeah. And there's this, this other thing that narcissists do. They recruit an army around them and they call that the flying monkeys. Tell me about that. Like from the wizard of Oz. Oh man. Man. What they do they. So they're very charming. You were saying. You know, a narcissist can be very, very charming. So imagine a man of 30 in the pub, good looking, very sort of upbeat, buys drinks for everybody and his girlfriend is there as well. And he's then starting to say to the girlfriends, the girlfriends of his girlfriend said, oh, don't talk to her about it. But I'm a little bit concerned because lately she has come up with all this weird stuff and I was thinking of making an appointment at a psychiatrist because I'm really concerned. Can you please keep an eye out on her and let me know when you notice something? Wow, that's great. Can you imagine it? And I have heard these stories not once, but, you know, quite a few times. So then the girlfriend with the narcissistic partner thinks it's, I've had enough, I need to talk to someone else. And they go to one of their girls and say, God, listen, he is such an at home. And they look at her and think what a man who is so caring and wants to look after her. And she comes out with this trifle. Can't be right. So again, the doubt then spreads to the group of flying monkeys, as you say, you know, and so they then become a flying monkey. They start working on behalf of the narcissist. Wow. Wow. Because I've never, you know, I am a psychologist but I've never worked in that area. So I'm finding this fascinating. What do you think in terms of handling if you suddenly realize you're in a relationship like this? Two questions. One, can you ever get a narcissist to behave well and, and, and really genuinely connect and own up to some of this behavior? Or do you just, do you advise extricating yourself as soon as possible? What, what, where does some, someone go with this? Because I think this happens a lot. Of course, as with all conditions, there is a spectrum. Yeah, exactly. There'll be people who will have slight narcissistic behavior. There will be people who are sort of the full blown ones, like my mother. Now what I have done, you mentioned my book Earlier. But what I have done in my book, I've put 50, a checklist with 50 traits. So that brings really home in how many situations your narcissist presents their narcissistic traits. So it might be in specific situations, it might be in a specific way. But what. List a couple of those. Yeah, I would say double standards. So what you get criticized for is what they do all the time, but that doesn't work. Yeah. Oh, I can't stand someone with double standards. You know, it's. I can do it, but you can't. Hey, half of our government right now, I have to say, they are getting away with breaking lockdown in the past, it's a different subject. But, yeah, who knows? That is. That is a narcissistic trait. It doesn't make them a narcissist, but, you know, it is their sense of entitlement. So what. Whatever you do for them, they expect you to do it. And they will never say thank you and you will never get a thank you note from a narcissist. Just. And what about, though? I mean, I think all of us in some ways have narcissists. As you say, it's a spectrum, a narcissistic tendency or side. I mean, you know, hands up. I took up painting again a year ago, and I really love it when someone remarks on one of my paintings and says, wow, that really speaks to me about something that really touches me. Does that make me narcissistic to hope for those sorts of comments? Because I kind of think that all of us in some ways can but have a sort of choice look. You take it as a bonus. Yeah, it's an external validation and it makes you feel good because something that is close to your heart is being experienced by somebody else as positive as well. Yeah, it's nice you share that at that moment and maybe you grow a little bit. You think, oh, well, you know, that's. I'm a good painter. But you are not campaigning to get those remarks. You're not saying to me, mariette, I'm gonna send you, or I'm going to post something on Twitter. And I think you and you and you, you should all say that. It's really, really wonderful what I'm doing. Yeah, you wouldn't think of that because that would take the value away from the compliment because it wouldn't be genuine. A narcissist doesn't care. They just need to hear continuously that how fantastic they are. So we, for instance, as children needed to thank our mother every day for A lovely, lovely meal. And it was bloody boring what she gave us to eat. Yeah, but it. We still had to say it like that. And if we were honest, that was not on. So we needed to make those false compliments. So a narcissist also then to be successful in their eyes, you have to keep feeding them. Is it often about physical looks? You know, because of course, going back to the mythology about narcissus, it was all about the physical. So is that, is that kind of a shallow version? Should we really be thinking about a narcissist? Much more broadly, it's not just about someone who it's. It has to have you, you know, idolize their looks or whatever it is. It is everything about external presentation. So it could be status, it could be education, it could be looks. Money is important. You know, a narcissist who has hardly any money to spend would happily go on holiday to Saint Tropez to mix this, you know, the people they belong to and present it to everybody. I know I went to Santa Fe, as you do, you know, not revealing that it was actually a real struggle, money wise, because they want to give that impression. So whatever external stuff rocks their boat. And so for my mother, that was education. I know for others it's money. They sit on millions and, you know, they want to sit on more millions or they can't get rid of anything of it. So I kind of interrupted you when I'd asked about if you find yourself in this kind of relationship, do you think it's worth trying to talk to and see if a narcissist can change, or do you think it's important just to extricate yourself and get out before your self esteem is totally damaged? What I tell all my clients all the time and what is a strong message in my book as well is they will not change. Because what is also typical of the narcissist is they are never wrong. They can't take negative feedback or criticism. When you meet the narcissist and when you are in a discussion with them, they always have the last word and you always have to agree with them. If you go against them, it's hell. So an open discussion about changing or whatever it is is not possible because their starting point and end point is always pointing the finger at somebody else. Yeah, but you talk about the spectrum. So let's say someone's in a relationship with someone low on the spectrum. There would be more hope there that you could maybe perhaps have genuine change between you. Or you don't think so if you want to change in how you deal with each other, then it's important to recognize the traits of your partner and say, okay, he or she always needs to be right. Now I know that. So in order to avoid flare ups and arguments and big rows, I just give in. So I'm prepared to give in for the peace. So we can have a relationship. Yeah, sort of a relationship. Now it sounds like. On the whole though, people need to get out of these relationships. So how do you. When a narcissist has had their claws in you and perhaps even got your social group looking at you with new eyes like you've got a problem, you're the one with the problem. What do you recommend? How does someone sort of escape that situation and then heal? Because it would take a lot of healing. Yeah. And building up of yourself again. Yeah. Prepare your. Prepare. Leaving. So make sure everything that's important for you. So if I'm talking now, when, if you live together, if you don't live together, prepare and keep yourself safe. So. So go and live somewhere else for a while or make sure you are surrounded by other people. If you live together with someone and you want to leave, make sure that all the things that are essential for you, your passport, maybe your jewelry, your bank papers, your university degrees, you know, all that sort of things, make sure that they are in a safe place where your partner can't. Because we don't, we don't have much more. Much time. I just want to check. So you know, this is rampant emotional abuse, but what you're suggesting, does it sometimes cross into physical abuse, particularly if someone says they want to leave? Yeah, could easily be. Yeah. Not saying that every narcissist will do that, but it could easily be. And then they lose control then. And it's called the narcissistic rage. That is that extreme, violent angry reaction. And when people see red, you don't know what they're doing. Yeah. You know, and when they are strong and when they're motivated by their anger, they. Well, you just don't know. You have to keep yourself safe there. Yeah. So I would say prepare your exit, find your alley. Who will support you? And that are not the flying monkeys. And that's difficult sometimes because when you talk about situations like this, it's difficult to understand that people could do things like this. And it's difficult to imagine that people who come across charming and nice and normal are behind closed doors, you know, turning almost into. Yeah, but not almost into a type of movie monster. So it's Difficult. It's a lonely journey to get yourself out of that relationship because a lot of people will not buy into your experiences. Do you think people who end up in these relationships have had it like you did with a narcissistic mother or father or sort of a family, sort of whole dysfunction around this? Do they tend to then repeat this or is that not necessarily the case? They can end up with a narcissist even though they didn't have experienced narcissism in their family. Yeah, it can be totally fresh, it can be a total surprise. But lots of people who grow up as a narcissistic parent end up in first instance with a narcissistic partner because it's a familiar pattern and this is where it's love. And I had a boyfriend who called me. I was at university, he wasn't, but he called me dummy. And he sort of was really nice to say. I thought it was very cute because no one ever had given me a nickname. In retrospect, you think that's not a very nice. I would not accept that anymore. But then I thought it was fine and I tried to repair the relationship with my mother through my partner. And that is in general a pattern. So not necessarily with narcissists, but if things don't work in your life then and you want to make it work, then you just displace it somewhere else. Well, it's been fascinating. So I want to again mention your book. I've got my clipboards, I've got the name exactly right. It's the best selling and award winning self help book from Victim to Victor Narcissism Survival Guide. And people can find you on Twitter and Instagram Mariette MarietteJanson and on Facebook Dr. Distress tips and your website, drd stress.co.uk thank you so much. That's been absolutely riveting. I'm glad to have met you. And now I just want to thank everyone who has listened in or watched today. And we'll be back in a fortnight again with two wonderful guests looking at trending topics. I had wanted to get a few of the trending topics across to Mariette, but we stayed with the narcissism because it was so interesting. But each show will be about the big trends and what they relate and how they relate back into our lives and reflect with us. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr here on women's and men's radio stations.