In March 1959, John Friedman filmed and presented a much-talked-about interview called Face to Face with Carl Gustav Jung in his house in Kusnacht. It really was a magnificent interview, so please watch it if you get the opportunity. Yet similar to a number of high-profile interviews, there was one sound bite which became Jung's most controversial TV moment. The soundbite was after he was asked if he believed in God. He replied, 'I don't need to believe, I know.' His reply caused some furore at the time, and in the decades since, it has been quoted by many, including Richard Dawkins, as an example of blind faith. Jung immediately regretted his answer because of its controversial, puzzling, or ambiguous nature. A few years earlier, Jung said, 'All that I've learned has led me step by step to an unshakable conviction of the existence of God. I not only believe in what I know, and that eliminates believing, therefore I do not take his existence on belief. I know that he exists. This is not a blind faith, but a certainty that is based on evidence.' His practice as a psychotherapist and his mythological research had convinced him of God's existence. Thomas Moore, also a psychotherapist, wrote his world-renowned book Care of the Soul. He said, 'Soul is not a thing but a quality or dimension of experiencing life and ourselves. It has to do with depth, value, relatedness, heart, and personal substance.' For him, the soul is the seat of emotions and the hub of our lives.. He claims that a loss of soul lies beneath the restlessness, addiction, insecurity, and frustration of so many contemporary men and women. With lives devoid of meaning and purpose, people yearn for something to nourish their souls. He proclaims that soul cannot be separated from body, family, work, love, or power. James Hillman took Thomas More's book as the source for his utterly compelling 'acorn theory' in which each life is formed by a unique image, an image that is the essence of that life and calls it to a destiny, just as the mighty oak's destiny is written in the tiny acorn. Hillman urges us to discover the blueprints particular to our lives. Certain that there is more to life than can be explained by genetics or environment, he says we need a fresh way to look at the importance of our lives. All this leads me to my guest Albert Botell, whom I met in a part of London where concrete buildings border the canals. The streets were empty and felt desolate. I was there for an interview and couldn't find my way through the iron gates to the TV studio. At that moment, Albert came from the other side and opened them for me. We spoke briefly, and instantly I knew he was doing such profound and important work, which is directed by his soul and his faith. He is a street pastor. And now let me introduce Albert Bartel to explain his life, his work, and his calling. Welcome, Albert. Thank you, Maria. How did you begin your work? How do I fit in? Um, how did you begin? How do I begin my work? Well, um, it was, um, 1984. I became a Christian, a born-again Christian, and, um, I found Jesus and, uh, I went from there, uh, if you like. Pretty simple. But I, I, um, was— I went to Mozambique for, for 7 years as a missionary there, and, uh, that was quite, uh, encouraging for me because I survived. Yeah, it's not an easy place to live, I'm sure. We'll go into it at the time. No. The war was on, the water was very scarce, and there's malaria and all sorts of things, and cockroaches as big as golf balls. Um, yeah, but you, you— I felt that that's where God called me to go, and, uh, he sustained me through that time. What made you, uh, what made you go to Mozambique? Sorry to interject here, but Mozambique is such a departure from— where were you born, East London? Um, no, in North London. North London, which part? Yeah, at the time I was— I'd just become a Christian and I was in a community church who did a Sows and— did a, um, a Seeds and Hose program for Mozambique. So they supplied money and what's it to a group in Zimbabwe who then passed it on and gave them the tools and the seed to grow crops in Mozambique. And that's actually where it started and I became a prayer pastor for— prayer partner for the group. And I used to just receive their newsletter. It was fairly new to me at that time. You obviously only just be coming into my faith. But I carried on with that. And it just one day the newsletter came saying, oh, we'd like a picture of a house all broken down on the beach. In Mozambique, and, and the, the newsletter said we would like to have people who are skilled in reinforced concrete. Oh, and my job at the time, my trade is a steel fixer. Really? In dealing with reinforced concrete. Did you, do you think that was meant to be then? Oh yes, because my claim to fame, of course, is I, I worked on the London Bridge the, the latest London Bridge. Wow. Helping to build that, so I, I know what I was doing of. Um, yeah, so I wrote to the guy and said, yeah, I can come. He wanted us to re-do the foundations at the back of the house. Well, it's actually 4 apartments originally, and that's what I did. And I felt God called me to that. And although I went for 16 days with some other people in a group of local labor. We did, we did, uh, renewed the foundations, and, and some other people come and did the rest of the work to restore the building. And, um, that was actually the mission house I went back to after— that was in 1989. And then it wasn't until 1992 that I went back, all in God's timing, of course. We don't understand that, but it's how things work. Yeah. So can I— I'll come back to that. Yes, all in God's time. Where did your life start? Where were you born? What was your family upbringing? Oh, okay. I was born in Edmonton in North London. Uh, I was one of 7 children, although 2 died at very, very early ages. So there's 5 of us, 5 boys, all boys growing up. And, uh, I was evacuated to Redcar in Yorkshire in 1944 for about a year. How old were you then? About 6. So that was in the middle of the Second World War? It was near the end, rather. It's 1944. Yeah. Um, And then I came back from there, and I remember we went to Sunday school in the Anglican church near where we lived. But my family were not Christians, not Christian, although my great-great-great-grandfather on my mother's side was a missionary in Guyana in 1840. Yes. When did you find that out? About, about 6 years ago. There you are. Do you— that is amazing because I hear this a lot, you know. I'm a psychotherapist as well. And when I talk to people about their ancestry, there's often a link somewhere between somebody's ancestry and their lives. You know, fascinating. Because I know, as you know, um, in those days, those early days, most people were baptized as children, or Christians as children. And although they didn't go to church, they presumed that they were Christians and, and so on. Um, but yeah, so I, I enjoyed the— I used to enjoy this, the Sunday school. And, uh, also at school we used to have the hymns and etc. in the, in the assemblies. I always enjoyed that. One of the things I can remember about that. Um, but other than that, we just went our own way, you know. We just grew up as like many ordinary families, really. We didn't have lots of money, was fairly poor. We never ever went on holidays abroad. In fact, my first trip to abroad was when I joined— I was in the national— doing my national service, um, at 18. I, I was flown over to Malta for 18 months. Ah, nice, nice posting actually. Yeah, because it was hot. At least it was warm. It was warm, and I, I learned to swim there. Did you? What, what was your— which, uh, part of the military were you in? I was a gunner in the Royal Artillery. Ah, amazing. I was a signaler, actually, a radio operator. And do you keep in touch? Oh no, I don't. I haven't heard from anybody now. They just sort of disappeared. Yeah, over time. So that was what, in the '50s? That was, um, yeah, '57 to '59 I was in the military. Yeah. And, um, so what did your father do and what did your mother do? My father, he was, um, what's known as an electroplater. Ah, okay. And he worked in a factory down in, in the, in Tottenham, the Angel Colony it was called. My mum was just a housekeeper, although later on she used to take in, uh, she was good on a machine, she had a machine and she used to make clothes and for us. And also she would take in outside work doing things which, and earn some money, like, you know, Bit of slave labor, really. Yeah, but at that time you do what it takes. Oh yes, yeah, I didn't get paid a lot, but anyway, it helped the family income and that was good. Yeah. And what were your brothers like? My brothers? We was always fighting like brothers. Yeah, that's what brothers do. Yeah, yeah. Um, I've got a twin actually. Have you? Yes, he lives up in Saltryn in Cambridgeshire, and there's only myself, him, and my younger brother who lives in Southampton alive now. And what do they do? Um, well, my twin brother's retired. He doesn't seem to do a lot of anything. My younger brother, he's, um, he hasn't done a lot for some time. He'd been, um, looking after his wife who's got lupus. Ah, that's tough. So Albert, at what point in your life did you turn, uh, to becoming a born-again Christian? What led you there? What led me there was, um, my first marriage broke up and, um, it wasn't very nice, but you know, you had to cope with things there. Um, and then during that time I became a part-time youth leader. With the Borough of Haringey, and I did various courses too. And it sort of became a paid income at one time. And it was there where this young lady was a Seventh-day Adventist, or she went to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and she asked us as a group of youth leaders, would we like to go to the church and explore, if you like. So I went along, and then I went back a couple of other times And then I started having Bible studies with her father and some other people from the church. Wow. And, um, that was my sort of— although I've always been spiritual and I've always believed in God and I've always believed in Jesus, um, but that was where I was heading from. And that's where, where it really— I think it started and led me to Although I didn't stay with them, my next-door neighbor was a Pentecostal lady, and she introduced me to Jesus. And what was it about these two women that made you say yes as opposed to not likely? Um, what was like— what they— well, certainly, um, they both had a godly appearance and godly ways, actually. And, um, one was a young lady, she was one of my youth leaders when I took over the running of the club. And, uh, and the other one was my neighbor, and she was also a teacher. She's a religious instruction teacher, and she worked at school in South London. And it wasn't until she asked me— I didn't know much about her really— until she asked me to come and fix a window while she went off to Cameroon for 6 weeks, right? So I made it safe for her. I said, 'No, we can get in now.' And there she talked about Jesus, and, and one thing led to another. When she came back, we had prayer meetings in a flat, and I met a flatmate, and we went— I went to church with her, or I took her to church in my car. And that's where it happened. Um, it was the quality of the people rather than— it was really, yes, it was quality of people. Yeah. And And I was amazed because I, you know, I like to tell a little story about my neighbor Joan. She, um, she called me into her house one day and said, Albert, um, now I've been a Christian a little while, not long, so it was all pretty new and I'm feeling my way still. I got baptized, baptized in the Spirit, baptized in water, you know, um, I wanted everything, and, uh So she said to me, Albert, God has called me to go to Africa. Oh, I said, well, whereabouts? She said Zimbabwe. And I didn't know where that was because I hadn't kept up with my geography of the name changes because it was Southern Rhodesia, the old Rhodesia. Yeah. And I said, oh, okay. So then she went off as a VSO, actually. And I said, well, service overseas, wasn't it? That's right, voluntary service overseas. And she was teaching in a school in Harare. And, um, and actually, in fact, in— that was in 19— about '85, '86, '85. Yeah, I just joined Air France then, working in the offices in Bond Street, and, um, just doing maintenance work and security stuff. And I said, I'll come and see you when I get my staff travel. As you know, with airlines, you'll get staff travel where you pay very little for your ticket. Yeah, that's lovely. And it was really nice. So I went to see her. It wasn't until 1987 Christmas, I had 4 weeks. I took 4 weeks, my leave and leave days, and went to see her in Harare. It was nice because we spent Christmas Day up in Niagara Falls— not Niagara Falls, Victoria Falls. Victoria Falls. Yeah, yeah, it was lovely. And, uh, was there. I met the man, Ron Davis, who, who sent me the newsletter about Mozambique. Ah, and so that's another link, if you like. And so I said, when can you come back? I said, well, we'll have to see. And it wasn't until, um, 1989, a couple of years later, that I went back to do— restore the house, built— restore the house. And then went back in '92 because I, I said to God, I don't want to come back here because it was the pits. No one wants to go there, and it was like a dry land. And, um, but I went to Bible school for a couple of years part-time, and then I— after that, I just went— I went on a trip to Israel, and, um, it was there in Israel in the Church of All Nations that I went on my knees and said I would go back to Mozambique. It was God's will against mine, if you like, but you're fighting this thing. And so I gave in then, and I went back in '92. Okay, can I ask you about that? Because as I said in my introduction, you know, C.G. Jung, who is the founder of analytic psychotherapy, psychology, and a lot of work with the mind, said, you know, don't ask me, don't ask me to believe I know this. You've got What is— sure, what— because we're going to talk about the work you do, because it's not just the essence of God or whichever religious belief, it's how do you put it into action. But for you, what is the essence that makes you— activates you into acting and doing something worthwhile and something good for others? How does that feel for you? What is it? What is it? Okay, well, I, I believe in the Holy Spirit, and, and I believe that's, uh, Jesus. I believe— well, what it is really is that I have a hope in Jesus of eternal life, and I'd like to spread that to other people. Not force it onto them, but, you know, share my hope. And also, I have a— I think I've got a community spirit I like helping people. I said I spent 7, 9 years as a youth leader working in the youth clubs, mainly with young people with learning difficulties and physical handicaps, right? Um, and that was quite testing at times, but I loved it, you know. Yeah. And I thought, what was your relationship like? How did you make that relationship happen? Because with Jesus— yeah, but not just with Jesus, but Jesus, let's say he is the motivation, the impulse, the impetus to make you do it. Your work comes from your behavior as well. What is it in your behavior that enabled you to work with these young people? Um, well, I think it's just I have a caring nature, right? I've come to discover that really, yeah, through working with people and something I've never done before, and I felt yes, this is something that I like doing and I have the skills to do it. Obviously I've had training. What's— yeah, of course you have training, but not everybody has the caring or the skills even with the training. So what was your work like? What was it? Give us an idea of your day there. When? Now? With the children? Oh, with the youth club. Okay, well, it was on I started off on a Saturday in what was used to be called the, um, Fab Clubs. They're not called that now because of political correctness or whatever. Um, but, um, so I started working there and I wasn't sure whether that was really for me. It was quite daunting at times because not— I hadn't had that, um, interaction with people. In that way. But I— when I came back after the September break, the, the chief of the, the youth service, man, he said to me, Albert, you, you feel like coming back? I said, yeah, I think I'd like to come back and do some more work. It's all voluntary, of course, then. And, um, he said, well, would you like to come to Los Angeles with us? We're taking a party of 18, I think it's 18 young people. They're all young people, not children, with various difficulties, mental difficulties, a couple of people in wheelchairs, and all 3 or 4, and, and that sort of thing. Some had bona fide— bona fide, yeah, yeah. They had, um, all sorts of problems, mental illness of course. And so that's why I went. So I went for 2 weeks over to Los Angeles which I had to pay for, of course. I had to help pay. Um, and it was a really, really, um, eye-opening experience for me. I remember taking this young man who'd never been in a sauna in his life, and he probably wouldn't go in on his own, and he was overjoyed. He said, oh, thank you for bringing me in this sauna. And I thought, well, I hadn't done much really. No, but I thought— but this is what this is your work, which we're going to go into a little bit more depth and detail. But this is what makes a difference— those who go in and actually do the work. Because there's a lot of work— people at the moment that give money to charities, and charities raise money, but they give it to people to do the work. And that's where it counts, to actually be there with somebody so that if they have a physical disadvantage they've got somebody they can rely on and trust to look after them in that moment, so they can have that experience that everybody else does, you know, every day, or can do every day, but that you are there to help and serve and protect them. Yes. And that makes a big difference, to have somebody you can trust. And make— and you make them feel safe, I presume. I, I hope so. I hope that that's— feedback. Yes. Even now, I I believe so, yeah, yeah. Because, you know, with these young people, for them to travel— and yes, you paid for yourself, that's a very big difference than, you know, somebody else paying you to go. So you've chosen to look after these young people on a trip to Los Angeles, which must have been magnificent for them. At least they know where all the big films are made, and it feels good for them. Yeah, and but you— we did get paid for that. Yeah, you're right, Maria, we didn't, we didn't get paid. We had to pay our— and that makes a big difference, you know, as well. So you do it out of your own, the kindness of your heart and your own skills and your ability. But do you think your upbringing helped you relate to these people more? Yeah, it is possible because, you know, we, we didn't have anything at all, um, as such, you know. We didn't even have books in my house. To read, you know. We'd have newspapers probably coming, magazine maybe. But I went to a selected secondary school, I passed 11+, and for me it was marvelous, you know. I had books from the library and bought home and stuff, you know. But yeah, so I suppose we were, um, disadvantaged. And growing up as a disadvantaged person, maybe that's what's given me that heart for other people. Yeah. And do you feel disadvantaged? Do I feel disadvantaged now? Yeah. Oh no, no. Okay, so you have materially disadvantaged? Yes. Yeah, sure it is. Yeah, yeah, because you didn't have things. So if you didn't go on holiday, I presume, you know, you struggled to have clothes. Did you have hand-me-downs and things? Um, yeah, my mum used to have to make up our clothes and patch them up a bit and that sort of thing. So yes, yeah, we, we have to do that. Yeah, so you had a lot of that. I understand that. I was brought up on a council estate and my parents didn't have anything, so I understand, uh, exactly what it takes to live in that life. But it does give you an understanding of what the basics of life are, potentially. Yeah, so, um You did that work and you came back from Los Angeles, and then what was your experience in Mozambique? Oh well, obviously that was— it's a different experience, although, um, one of the things I did was I joined a part of the youth work. We set up a club for young people with learning difficulties, uh, with ordinary so-called all the youngsters. And the only protection we had— they had— was the, the skill of the youth workers. There's no other protection, um, whereas opposed to other clubs which have protection of the parents and so on, um, but what we wanted to do is them to experience life so that when their parents died or the guardians, they would have an experience of what life is really about and be able to cope much better. Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah. So can you go into that a bit more? What did you— how did they experience that? What were some of the lessons? Well, one thing, so I always remember this, since a young lad called Gary, he was, um, he was playing pool one day, and then he come up to me and he said, Albert, he said, they've taken all my money off me. And so I had to sit him down. I said, Barry— his name was Barry— I said, Barry, you've got to be a bit wiser than that. So that they let him win a couple of games as usual, and then they, they took all his money. But I said, you've got to learn that this is the things that happen and learn not to, not to be, you know, waste your money on that and not be foolish, you know, try to. So that's one little incident. There's another incident where we did a trip to Spain. It was an exchange trip. It was 18 of us with a big minibus, and we drove from Hornsey in London down to Solsona in Catalunya, and we stopped on the way camping. But there was one young lady there who I knew very well. I remember we started to go off on the minibus, and her father came up to me and said, oh, Albert, here's, here's the girl's here's the money, here's a passport, and so on. I said, oh, thanks very much. So Susie gone, I said, Susie, here's your money. I kept the passport because we had to use it, go to France. But as soon as we got to France, I gave her back her passport and said, it's your responsibility. And she loved that. Yes, they're not given that responsibility, and too much, they have to learn sometimes mistakes go wrong, but they have to learn from them. Yeah, everybody has to learn. It's not just them, but it's easier for us, I presume, you know, when, when you have— when you're more able, let's say, when you've got everything in that respect to your advantage. Um, Mozambique, what was that like? Well, Mozambique was a bit strange because I'd been to Zimbabwe for, for the, like, 5 or 6 years since 1987. I went— I made some friends in Zimbabwe, and I used to go back every year and, um, go for holidays really. And it was really nice. And, um, and I got on quite well with people. And, um, coming from London, which is a multicultural city, I had no problem with the people there. They were like— I just treated people like as all normal would do. But when I got to Mozambique, I found out there was something, there was something missing. From the people there than they were in Zimbabwe. And I think it was— and what it was, um, having been cut off for 26 years of civil war, they weren't allowed to travel, uh, whatever you— they couldn't travel, and that they were sort of cut off from the world. And then there was another factor where they wouldn't talk very much. It was— I taught English there as a foreign language as well as my church work and, um, that they couldn't— they found it very difficult to explain what things were simply because they hadn't had that skills. And, and it reminded me then of the people, young people with learning difficulties, that— and I learned from that, having the patience with young people like that, to have a little bit more patience with the people in Mozambique, if you'd like. Yeah, to help them take a little bit more time to help them learn. What did you pick up? Because they'd been in this intense war, what did you pick up from them? Were they very, were they very defensive? Yes, they were defensive because they weren't sure. It's though, like my name, I live, I lived in the community and my neighbors was sharing me that um, they were afraid to— didn't know if any of their neighbors were spies for whatever side they were on. And so they were very— they would say, hello, good morning, how are you, fine, and that's it. So to get them to explain a little bit more was quite difficult. Yeah. And how did you— yeah, how did I do that? Well, by through my teaching, but also encourage them to— and me sharing my, my experiences, my family, and what have I gotten, what I've been through. Yeah. And was it because you've got a more open nature, more approachable nature, that that made it a little bit easier for you? Yeah, I think so. So everything that you'd learned had taken you to that point there? Yes, yes. I mean I had to learn the language, of course. Sorry, how long were you there for altogether? Um, just over 7 years. Ah, so it's quite— in Mozambique, but Africa alone, yeah. And you were there for 7 years, and, um, what did you do on a day-to-day basis there? Well, in Mozambique, well, if I was teaching, I would go to— they set up a language, um, language, uh, what they call it, a language course anyway, language, um, institute to teach English. Yeah. And I, I first started, I did some first year courses, but at the same time had a group of young men, mostly men, some young women came, of my own. I taught separately. And, um, and then I taught another group in the Baptist church higher level, um, as well as doing the church work. So my day would get up, if I was going teaching, I'd go off to the institute for a couple of hours, or then I'd come back and do other work, meet the church people, shopping of course, going to the shops and the bank and all that sort of thing, all the businesses you have to do normally, um, and I had to do language learning because they speak Portuguese, and I hadn't— I'd learned French, but I hadn't learned Portuguese. So you learned Portuguese? But I— yeah, so I had a tutor who taught you, who was a school teacher. So it was quite interesting because I used to go down on Sunday, go to different churches, and they would ask you to preach, and I'd write all my sermons in Portuguese, and my tutor would correct them, make them— they were grammatically correct, but actual fact, I don't think anybody understood because the people I was with were from the Renacora churches, from the rural side, and many of them didn't understand Portuguese anyway. They spoke Sena or whatever other dialect they spoke, but we had interpreters, and I'm not sure if the interpreters interpreted right because I never got any response, much response until one day I went— I had no notes with me, I forgot them, I left them at home, and I just had my Bible. So I just spoke in everyday Portuguese that I'd learned, and that made a difference. Oh, okay. Because I spoke— I remember reading that how Jesus preached the gospel, and he preached it in easy terms, simple terms that people knew about. Like talking about bread and wine and stuff like this. And so that's what I did. I talked to them in that sort of simple story-like way, and they responded better. Yes. Yeah, with some actions as well, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're bringing it all to life, really, how you would use it every day. Uh-huh. Were you afraid out there? Was it, you know, was I afraid? Was it violent there? And no, the war— well, the war had finished in '92, the end of '92, the war had finished. But there was still some bandits and things around, but it wasn't that because I was in one of the cities. Out in the country it might have been a little bit more, but that all quietened down after a while. I was never afraid, no. Ah, because I got on my side, or I'm on God's side. I don't know what it was. So is that what you believe? How much of your faith do you believe impacts on your, obviously, your day-to-day life? But do you think that is part of your protection? I think, well, yeah, um, for me, that's how I live. My faith is how I live. I don't I don't separate it from my everyday life. It's all part and parcel of my work now, you know. Um, as I say, I believe in the Holy Spirit who speaks to us. Jesus said he left a comforter and someone to guide, and what's— and I hear his voice quite a lot. And, um, is that your sort of guide to your everyday life? Yes, and, and through his word, of course, and what we should be doing, the way we live. Yeah, because each religion— each religion— each religion, doesn't matter which religion we're talking about, has a way to live, doesn't it? Yes, yes, yes. Um, here we have a very profound way to live, and it's quite simple, isn't it? It's quite— yes, I mean, the thing is, Jesus made it simple, didn't he? Yeah. He said, love your God with all your heart and soul, love your neighbors as yourself. Yeah, but it's not covered the whole Ten Commandments. And, you know, people don't realize that he made it very simple. Yeah. And, you know, love your neighbor as you would love yourself, or, you know, do to your neighbor as you would have been done to you. Yes. People don't think about it in those terms. They've swiped away religion and— well, let's put religion to a side because I think churches have lost their way often. That's right. They have lost their way. But these are profound, just little bite-sized statements that will say— if you just said, look, you know, let's treat everybody as we want to be treated, that makes sense, doesn't it? So, um, can we go into the work that you do now? Okay. You now tell us about what you do on a day-to-day basis. You're a street pastor, aren't you? When I looked this up, actually, you can tell me if I'm right, or wrong here. He says it's about Christians rolling up their sleeves and getting involved in practically responding to the problems of crime and safety. Uh, yeah, working with the nighttime economy mainly, right? Obviously we're out in the streets for the people. I believe I'm out when I'm on the street pastor's role. I, I'm, uh, the church out in the streets. We're there for the people, everybody. And it's quite often we're just a listening ear sometimes, or we might talk to people who've not had a word, talk to anybody all day, especially among the homeless and then the different people. Yes, so that's— so you were— when I met you, as I said, you were, you know, there down by the canals and so on. And that particular part of the world felt quite desolate, although there was lots of flats and houses, there weren't many people wandering around, and that was sort of felt quite empty, quite stark. And obviously you came along, is that what you do? Do you wander around the city and talk? Oh yeah, as a chaplain, I'm a Waterways Chaplain. Yeah. I'm also a rail passer, which I like to talk about. Um, my chaplaincy work is that I go out once a week or twice, whatever I want to, and I'm engaging with the community on the towpath. A lot of it's to do with a boating fraternity, but anybody who's working or walking or cycling or whatever along the towpath, I'm there for them. And do you stop them or do they stop you? How does that work? I think it works a bit of both, actually. Usually I engage with them, so I've got to know lots of people. In fact, when I walked along with Luke, when I showed him to the ironworks that day— to the ironworks in Oshkosh, yeah, just to make it clear— yeah, I met one of the boaters I know quite well, and we had a nice little conversation, hug, and Yes, I built up relationships over like 5 years with people in my patch, if you like. This is my, my local patch, um, although I travel other places in London. But yes, it's for them and they get to know. And we also have a website which people can get referred to us and we will go out, help. If it's— it might be help them with coal or wood if they've got if they're running short of money or whatever, um, we can do that. We have a fund. You have a fund that actually helps people if you, if you know that they have— yeah, if they need— yeah, it's only a small fund, but it's, um, it's a meaningful one, isn't it? Yes. Yeah. So if you need something then at that moment that you, you're deprived of, you can just help, and that can make a big difference at that moment in time. Oh yes, at that time. I remember a couple of years ago, just at the beginning of the lockdown, I think, was at the first year of the lockdown, and I was able to go out on lockdown because I'm— I was an essential person. And, um, we had this man down on the canal, and he, he had no boat. It was very cold. It was Christmas, day before Christmas, or Christmas Eve, and he'd been on a week on his boat. He— it was cold. He had no wood, no coal left to light his fire, and, um, and hardly any food. So I was able to go down there, take him and take him down to the— with another, another guy, another boater. And we got him coal and food and food, addsters. And, uh, so that was Christmas Eve. It went down there, it's like— and it reminded me of, um, The Christmas Carol, you know. It was, it was, uh, the guy with no food, and along comes, uh, what's his name, and he says, there's a big turkey, and that sort of thing. It was like, yeah, it reminded me of that. Yeah. Gave him something and his Christmas Day was gonna be Tiny Tim, a different day. You know what's so interesting about that, to hear, and we'll talk more about this, but what's so interesting is that we assume with all the social help and the social welfare that it's easy for people to get that. It's not that it's not easy to get, it's just that sometimes you need to recognize who needs what, don't you? Yes. Yeah, I have to recognize that need. And, and quite often sometimes we get referrals from other boaters about someone because it's quite a big community there. Um, and then we'd go along and help them to get online, or if they're online, you know, to go through the procedure of Universal Credit and, and how to get housing benefit, because you can get housing benefits to pay your license fee. A lot of people didn't know that. So like, which type of license fee? Well, the boats on the canal have to be licensed. Okay. Um, it's a year or 6-month license, whatever license they've got. And, um, but they can claim that as a housing benefit, like paying your rent. So you helped them do all the forms? Yeah, sometimes they need a little bit more help than others. Yeah, one or two One or two chaplains I know had been to help people when about to go to tribunals and stuff like that, um, and they've spoke up for them or supported them. Yeah. And so we do that sort of work, and but there's also the general building up of relationships and that sort of thing. So it's, um, it's quite varied really. And what about— you mentioned the railway work, right? The railway passes. I became a railway pastor because I met a young lady, or she's younger than me, he's not young, but I was at London Bridge when the terrorist, um, attack was on. Um, just after that, I was a— I'm a response pastor as well for Ascension Trust. That means we had trauma training on how people need to deal with that. And, um, so I was there for a couple of days and I met this young and later on I met her at Grenfell Tower. I was there for 3 days, um, listening to people and helping, you know, some to come to terms, if you like, and we prayed for people, etc. And so she introduced me. She said she was the coordinator of the Rail Pastors and the Street Pastors in Havering. So I said, that sounds interesting. And what we do as Rail Pastors We have to do some training with the Samaritans, and we're on the lookout for vulnerable people who might want to jump under a train, to be blunt. Yes. So we've got— there's certain things you can see. Um, if someone's like sitting on a bench and maybe he's allowed like 3 or 4 trains to go by, you think, well, what's going on here? Like, you know. So we approached it gently and sensitively, and, uh, you know and we may intervene in what they're going to do. We may not stop it completely, but— and then we lead them to other agencies, etc. So that's what we do. But we also talk to people on the road, on the stations, to say, look, what sort of day you're having, have you talked to anybody yet? And trying to encourage them, when you come, just to say hello to someone would change their what they're going to do that day may just change them and stop them doing something. Just to say hello. People don't want to talk now. We've got— we're in a mode of telephones and phone, mobile phones and earplugs and everything, and people don't talk to people. I think that's always been the case though. Yeah, so that's what— that's part of what we do really, you know. We work on the TfL at the moment from Romford to Ilford. We were on the Great Anglican, but that stopped when the COVID came. We haven't been back with them yet, but well, we're just hoping, you know, we're trying to recruit more rail passers actually to go out. And as you say, you're looking for signs. Can you go more into the signs and the people, the examples of the people you've helped? Yeah, it's a matter of, um, seeing what's happening with people. They come on the stage, they've already planned what they're going to do. People don't realize that suicide is not something— it's not a spur of the moment thing. It's something that they've planned to do over time, and then they've come up on the station and they've Um, I mean, one of the rail staff was— he didn't intervene because he couldn't, but this guy had come to the station a few times and he told him his girlfriend had died. So, and he'd come up the station, got trains, gone wherever he's gone. And then one day he came, come up the station, and he knew what he was doing. He waited for time to train, he just went in front of it, you know. And so, you know, you can't always save people, but you can try to intervene if you see the signs of someone unsure of what they're doing. Well, they know what they're doing, but you've got— you see the signs where they're, they're hanging about, maybe at the end of this platform, maybe they're all on their own and this sort of thing. And I mean, what I think one of my guys, we, we went to Some guy come up to us, yeah, I'm going to jump on this train. And so he grabbed him and said, no, no, you're not. And we're able to lead him, give him to the staff. Mainly we get the staff are involved here. We have to report to them and they get people to come and see him, etc. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember like one, one time I was with this man and we, we went along the station and I stopped talking. He said, oh, Albert, come and meet this young lady. And I said, no, And it turns out she's really down because her boyfriend or husband— I think it was her husband— was going off and marrying someone else, right? And she was really in a real state. But, you know, we allowed her to talk, we listened to her story, and when we left, we, uh, she was in a much better state than when we met her. Um, and obviously we share our faith with people, ask them if they've got any faith, and, you know, and share this way, a way out, if you like. Um, I remember giving her a New Testament, and, uh, the Gideon's New Testament, and, uh, she was really pleased with that because it had some parts. She turned to the Psalms, 'Oh, this is poetry! I write a bit of poetry.' And we left her in a better place, you know. That wasn't really drastic, but it was something we do. Yes. And, um, When you deal with people from Grenfell and PTSD, tell me about that. What is your— you now go in, you meet somebody who's just experienced a terrible tragedy of Grenfell. What do you do? Well, I think first of all, they need someone to listen to them. And quite often people don't realize it's about listening. Yeah. Rather than speaking. Um, you know, I met one of the two people down in the— people lost people, their families down there, and, and I was able to pray with them. And I'll just hug them, give them a hug, and let them talk about it all. You know, um, part of trauma, you need to talk it out and get it out of your system. It takes time. I mean, we're only there for a little while, but at least it's the initial, uh, thing. Um, the initial experience is to do that. And the whole part, even in, you know, psychotherapy, is part of that. Psychotherapy is— yeah, I guess so— talking cure, is to continually let people revise, relive, revise, repair, relive. Yes, I mean, I, I do it quite a lot actually. Um, I have a cousin who lives in Chingford. Um, we lost contact with her for 70 years. Wow, that sounds astounding. We actually— she was evacuated with us, although she's about 8 years older. She's actually 91 now. But I actually first met her in like 2018. I was at Grenfell Tower that weekend when she went to see my brother up in Cambridgeshire, so I couldn't go, but I, I went to her house. She lived in Chingford, and from that day on I've been helping her. And, uh, but I've also been counseling. I've allowed her to talk through her life, what it's— what was happening in her life. Even now, I was here last week, I went, took her down to— we got the taxi down to Morrison's to get some shopping, have some lunch there. It's getting her out the house and getting her to, you know, get a life back, if you like. Yeah, because what your, what your faith is giving you is your own support, I take it, to do the work. Yes. Yeah, because you, you know, it's not easy to do the work you're doing, to take somebody else's. It's not— I'm not saying that you take it on, but it can be a case that some people's troubles are so difficult, so hard, and yes, instinct is to do something but also just to listen is so powerful, and your faith helps you do that. So there you are, but you're also practically helping somebody, and that community help is what you do. But yes, can I just ask you before we— because we haven't got a great deal of time, but you've done so much in the realm of one-to-one care, which is so immense, so powerful, so important. Um, I just want to talk about the homeless. And you sort of said that you also deal. So here it says, um, one of the quotes from Thomas More, who also was a pastor, a priest. He says, when soul is neglected, it doesn't just go away. It appears symptomatically in obsessions, addictions, violence, and loss of meaning. Is that what you think happens to people? They lose meaning? They become violent? I think so. I quite often— I think they, um, and it's so sad because we, we don't have actually— I wish I had a phone number I could phone someone up and say, look, I've got this man or woman here, can you get them fixed up for the night or whatever you— um, I think they do after a time, they do lose hope. One of the things I, I, part of the, uh, um Grove Night Shelter. Well, over the last couple years have been in hotels, but the Grove Night Shelter in Tower Hamlets, they don't just put people in rooms for the night. They also have a program where they try to bring them back into society, help them with their problems they need, and also accommodation as well. So I, I think that's the way forward with people are homeless, and it isn't— it's not an easy task, but it's a long-term thing. Um, and I, I— the other week I was out in Street Pastors, about 2 months ago, and this man came up to us and he looked quite well dressed. It wasn't scruffy. He just had a case and a bag, and I thought he was going to ask us, because we was near the station in Stratford, what train to get. And he says, oh, I said, I've been told if I want some help, see the boys in blue. That's us, we have a blue uniform. And, um, I said, okay, how can we help you? And, uh, and he said, oh, well, I've been homeless for 2 weeks. And he told us his story. And my name is Albert, and I said, my name's Albert, what's your name? And he said, Nick, I'm Albert, Naomi, and so on. And he said, Albert, my son's name was Albert. And then he said to me, My father's name is Albert. He died when I was 12. Already that told me, here's a man who suffered grief early on in his life with no, um, you know, no role models as a father, etc. And he's going through. So we took him into Preta Manji, gave him coffee, and listened to his story, which is more important. He won't— I— it took me back 46 years that night when my first marriage broke up, and I know what he was going through. I wasn't actually home as such, I, uh, but it was the questions. You want answers, you wanted to talk things, you wanted to talk to people, but no one will listen. So I'll give you a sandwich or a cup of coffee, but okay. What are those questions that you want answered at that Well, it's the confusion. It's right, why, where did it all go wrong? What, what's happened to me? Why, you know, why, why, why, you know? And you need to talk them through it because you're in trauma. I didn't realize at that time, but you're in trouble and you need to get— and you need someone to talk to. But of course, you've only got this one story, and people, people get a bit— move away if you're telling the same old story. But people— but that's what you need. But it's true, in a small community you would be telling that story and they'd know and they'd understand. Now everybody thinks you go on to a video and you can solve your life's problems, but this is where we're coming unstuck. It's not as easy as that. But do you think— you're right, Maria, about the community. We— the community has disappeared. Yeah, people, you know, and they unfortunately they want to put you— oh, go and see this agency or that agency and that. But really you need the community around you. Yeah. And, um, you know, people who are on the street, um, do any of them just get fed up with being, you know, told to go and live your life like this, or go and live life like that? This is what you should be doing, that's what you should be doing. Do some people just want the freedom I think, well, yeah, some people are quite happy. Well, when you say happy, they've got used to it. They don't mind, they'll sleep there and what have you. And I don't have to pay any rent, don't have to pay this, and drop out of society really. Yeah, yeah. But generally speaking, I think it's a long term where they, they start off, oh, I'm out on the streets with only a couple. Like this man was okay. I wish I'd, you know, had a place to put him. Um, because he'd only been 2 weeks out on the street and he was sleeping on the buses. Um, if you can get people like right from that beginning and change their life to help them that way, I think it's a good thing. Yeah, generally speaking, from my experience, most of the homeless people are— it's crept over them, you know. They've— it's not their fault they've had this, whatever problems they've had. Um, and they've just got used to it. Yeah, it becomes part of their life. They have a community. Yeah, and also in this country, in most countries, if you don't have a home address, you can't get a bank. If you can't get a bank— well, that's changing, because you can get bank accounts now, and you can— there are some things changing in that sense. But you think also we're becoming a society where they expect the individual to look after themselves so well without any help. And that's where your work comes in as such a powerful sort of Samaritan. This is real Samaritan work. I've been a Samaritan, uh, on the phones, but the real Samaritan work and the whole premise and the story of the Samaritan, the Good Samaritan, was that he actually did something for somebody. Yeah, I mean, that— not— yes, I agree, I agree. That's what, that's what's needed, doing of something. And that's what you do. How can people, if they are in need and happen to be listening to this, or if you know somebody and pass it on, how do they contact somebody like yourself, or to become somebody like you? We're out on the streets, but we— there is a Street Link. We've often referred people to Street Link, and they have been picked up and they've been put in hostels, although the hostels may not be the ideal thing. I spoke to homeless people who said, I don't want to go back in that hostel, it's like drugs and drink going on. You see, you've got to understand, this is— they're very vulnerable people. Yeah. And these drug dealers, etc., prey on those vulnerable people. I know, it's terrible. But if somebody's got hooked, you know, what if they wanted to do the work you do? How do they start? So If they want to do the work I do, which is join an organization like either the Street Pastors, uh, although it's a Christian organization, and, um, or, you know, what I do. But there are other organizations all out there on the streets doing other things. Um, people probably don't know about them, you know. Um, but most of the people I see, lots of over in Stratford, quite regular They're regular people out on the streets. They're sitting there begging most of the time. And you've got to realize, not all homeless— not all people out in the streets begging are homeless. Some have got flats where they live. Yeah, that was one when I was in Shoreditch. There's one guy in particular, he was good, he's a good artist, and he used to come out and he'd say to us, oh no, it's okay, I've got a place to stay. I just come out here because I like the company. Yeah, because it's isolating. Isn't it? Yes. Yeah, yeah, they're on their own. Yeah, but when they're out on the streets, of course, sleeping rough, they build up a community. Yeah, they've got friends there, the same boat, if you like. So if there was— yeah, if there was one thing you would change, what would it be? Because we're coming to the end now, but what would it be? What would I change? Yeah, what would you change? For the homeless, for anybody in our life, you know, to enable people not to feel so isolated and homeless. It's the turn— the only hope is to turn to God, turn to Jesus. That to me is where, you know, I, I often say to myself, I could have been there on the streets, I could have been here, but Jesus saved me from that. Is that— you're giving me future. And did that give you community as well. Did that give you a community? Did it give you people to turn to? Oh yes, yes, of course. The church is worldwide, and I— and as I've traveled a lot, I'm a worldwide Christian, if you like. My church is worldwide as well as being local. So that, as you say, you could have ended up on the streets, but that gave you a, a way, a route, did it, to find your way back again? To face your life. Yeah, yeah. And hopefully, if, and if the church is doing its business, it, it should be able to help people like that. Yeah, so you've got somebody to turn to, to give you hope, to give you help, and it— again, you become part of the community. So Albert, Albert Bortel, thank you for all the work you do in our community. Thank you for speaking to people. Who need help. Thank you for helping those who can't help themselves, and thank you for this interview. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. This is Your Mind Matters. Thank you.