Your Mind Matters – Dr Anastasios Gaitanidis, Gold Makes A Fool, Kind Midas

Welcome to Mythology. I am Dr. Maria Kempinska, and my guest and, uh, my partner in this particular series of mythology is Dr. Anastasios Gitanidis, who is also a professor. He teaches over here in Regent's University in London and in Greece, which is very exciting. That's why he's brown and I'm pale. I've just come out of the winter sun and Anastasios is going into the winter sun, which is lovely for him. And it's wonderful to have you here again. We're talking this time about King Midas. Yes, King Midas. Yes. What a, what a great myth for our times, right? Absolutely. And we have so many to choose from. And we decided that King Midas, it might be the perfect time to talk about King Midas. So what I'll do is I'll give a very, as brief as an introduction to the story as possible. Midas, who was, of course, as we know, the man with the golden touch. Yes, this was the king who absolutely was a pleasure-loving king. And they say that he ruled over Brigians. Now, this was in Asia Minor, which was, yeah, You know, sort of— Attolia, yes, that's the area. It's always, you know, sort of— it's changed so much that you have to understand the geography. And he was the first person to plant a rose garden, and he loved spending his days feasting and listening to music. Of course he did. And, you know, he was a king, so why shouldn't he? They say that his mother was Rhea, or Sybil. Do you call her Sybil? Sybil. The mother of the gods. And when he was a baby, it is said that a procession of ants was seen carrying grains of wheat up to the side of his cradle and placing them between his lips as he slept. When the oracles were asked to explain the omen, they said that Midas was a special child who would amass great power and wealth. Aren't the oracles wonderful? So let's bear in mind that most of the myths were so impactful because they were around God, around kings and queens, those people of power. And it's about power, and it's about people in high places. Um, King Midas had a rose garden which was celebrated, and on one particular occasion, Dionysus, who was the god of wine, otherwise known as Bacchus in the Roman, as a Roman god, he and his army were going to India by Asia Minor. And part of his army, he had some satyrs, which were half men, half goats. And one of these satyrs was somebody who was sort of his mentor, who's educating him, was Silenus. Yeah. Now, as we know, the god of wine, Dionysus, was a god of wine, of lust, of sexual favors, of gates of just having fun. He was the big party god. And on this particular occasion, they were close to King Midas's palace, and Silenus was drunk. He'd drunk too much, and he wandered away from the rest of the army and fell asleep in King Midas's palace. The following morning, when he was waking up, King Midas's retinue found him and took him to King Midas. And he spoke to King Midas and regaled King Midas with stories about Dionysus' army, and where they traveled and the great accomplishments that they'd had. Took him 10 days to tell these stories. After 10 days, he was now sober. He— Salinas was taken back to Dionysus. Now Dionysus was so dependent on Salinas, Salinas, that he was delighted that Midas had looked after him and called all his retinue to get Midas to come over and meet him and offered him a prize and said, what would you like? I would like to give you a gift for being so amazing and looking after my friend. Hmm. Because Dionysus couldn't have continued without him. It was much like, um, in those days, uh, you know, sort of Alexander the Great had Aristotle with him, so they would have one person that would guide them, make sure they were okay, making sure they made decisions in the right way. And this is Silenus. When Dionysus said, I'm going to give you a gift for looking after my friend and rescuing him and making sure he's okay, King Midas, being the impulsive man that he was, he said, "I would like to touch. Everything I touch would turn to gold." And Dionysus said, "Are you absolutely sure?" And Midas said, "Of course, you know, I've got my bed of roses, I've got a daughter who loves me, my kingdom is thriving. What else do I want? Gold, of course I do." And so Dionysus said, Okay, let's go ahead. And he gave him this wonderful gift of everything that he touched was going to be turned to gold. Dionysus— Midas then went into his rose garden and picked up one of his roses, and it immediately turned to gold. That's wonderful, he thought. And then he sat down by an apple tree, reached up for an apple, and it turned to gold. And then he saw a nightingale, reached up to touch it, and it also turned to gold. After a period of time of doing this, he decided he was hungry. He went to his banqueting hall and sat down to have something to eat, and it also turned to gold. Decided he was going to have something to drink, and that too turned to gold. So suddenly there was this man where everything that was going to be a luxury and everything that was going to be golden, but suddenly he couldn't eat or drink. So his own nourishment had gone. His daughter noticed this and she was alarmed. She rushed over to her father and thought, "My father, he's not going to be nourished, he's never going to eat." And as she wrapped her arms around her father, she too turned to gold.. And at this point, King Midas realized he'd made a mistake. He was totally heartbroken. What can I do? So he went over and he found Dionysus and said, thank you so much for giving me this gift, but I've made a mistake. My, my daughter has now turned to God and I want her back. Dionysus, who is actually a nice god, a kind god, reckless, fun-loving, lustful, but he was a good god. And he said, I realize what you've done, so what I suggest you do is I— you must go to the river which was called Pactoklis, and you must bathe in the river, but also take your daughter. And when you bathe, the gold will come off and you'll be restored. But more than this, he also gave him because he was so pleased that he had, you know, Midas had helped him find Silenus, who was very important to Dionysus. He said, "I'm going to help you become king of Phrygia," which actually was a place. And he helped Midas become king of Phrygia, not through any untoward reason, but the king of Phrygia at that moment actually died and Midas took over. And it was all very amicable. It wasn't done in a bad way. It wasn't done through death and destruction like some of the other myths. But he actually found his place there. And it was all because of the goodness of Dionysus. Hmm. And as time went on, Midas then became the king with the psychology of somebody who is the king. And as time went on, there was a very famous, sort of, let's say, battle of the bands. And this time it was between Apollo and a normal mortal called Macirus. And Macirus had found a flute that Athena had created. And this flute, whoever played it became an accomplished musician. And Apollo decided that they would have a competition. And the judge happened to be King Midas. Hmm. And this is where King Midas became the normal human being. He had become a king. He could now decide between Apollo, who is a god, and Osiris, who is a normal mortal who had been made, given the gift of being a fabulous musician. By Athena and the flute. Both of them played, and Midas decided that Macerus was going to be the winner. Apollo wasn't happy with this and called him an ass and gave him asses' ears. Hmm. King Midas decided he was going to hide his ears, quite rightly, and his barber was the only one that knew about his ears because he put on a cap. And there was a name for the cap, the Phrygian cap. That's right. And but he told his barber never to tell anybody. As long as he wore the cap, nobody could see that he had these hairy, long, dangly ass's ears. And however, the barber, true to human, the human psychological condition, couldn't hold in this story. And he decided to tell it to the Reeds. But the reeds, much like social media, decided to tell everybody, and they amplified the story. And soon everybody got to know that King Midas himself was an ass. Hmm. So most of us know the story, so we'll end it there. There's a little bit more to it, but most of us know the story of King Midas and the Midas touch. And you've even got Forbes you know, 100 Midas, 100 or 200 Midas. And we often talk about the Midas touch. They can turn something from nothing into gold. And yet what happens when you start believing in your own power? And we see this over and over again, don't we, in mythology? Yes. All for that moment of hubris, that moment when you become bigger than the gods, you are taken down and you're made a fool of here. And I think what I like about the story, although it's almost like a child's fairy tale, it actually tells you exactly how the gods felt about it. Yes, yes. But also it shows, you know, that something about human impulsivity and the sense of deciding on the spur of the moment, this is, you know, This is narcissism in a way, and greed. Great, you know, he gets everything and he wanted more. He wasn't satisfied with, you know, with actually using his wealth to benefit someone else. He had everything, so he wanted more than everything. He could have been satisfied and content with what he had, but no, it wasn't enough. He wanted to be the richest man in the world. That's why he decided that he, every, everything that was, that he was touching, that he will turn into gold. And that's, that's perhaps his downfall in a way. It was his downfall until, of course, Dionysus took pity on him and restored him by telling him to wash himself in the river Pactolus together with his daughter. But fundamentally, there is something about this impulsivity, so the sense of I don't care about anything else, I just want everything for myself. And that's the nature of greed. Greed doesn't care about anything and anyone. It only cares about myself. I remember, I remember, you know, and in that sense it's very destructive because in many ways it doesn't take consideration of the other as well. I mean, it's different from jealousy and it's different from envy, but it's equally destructive. It's equally destructive because it's a relationship with one, greed, you know. It's interesting because Melanie Klein talks about greed, doesn't she? Yeah. And there is— he distinguishes it between jealousy and envy, for example. He says that greed is a relationship that involves only one, the person who experiences the greed. It doesn't— the example that I give, you know, and it's actually an example of my own greed. I just, I remember having this beautiful tiramisu made for me, a whole, a whole tray of tiramisu, right, made by a friend who's makes an excellent tiramisu. And of course, you know, we kept it in the fridge for tomorrow morning. So we have, you know, me, my wife, and friends will have, you know, a piece of tiramisu. So I went down in the night and I opened the fridge and I saw this beautiful tiramisu and I couldn't stop myself, you know, and I ate, I ate most of it. I left only one piece, right? So, you know, in that moment, the impulsivity was like I'm only thinking about me and my own desire. Yeah, the, you know, my wife, my friends, and nobody existed. It was only me and my greed. I want it all and I want it now. That's what greed is, right? But this is so interesting, you saying that, because we still have that as grown-ups. But when Melanie Klein talks about it, it's actually as a child. It's almost as if that isn't— if you're not given that food as a child, if you're not allowed to experience your greed, and if it's not moderated at that age, it will develop into narcissism and overwhelming self-importance and desire. It's not regulated, along with envy and jealousy. Or if it is encouraged, like in the case of Biden, right? That he was encouraged, was special, you are special. Yeah. When, you know, people, when the kids, I said, you know, it's interesting because it's almost like we We deal with like babies. His Majesty the Baby, right? Yes, the baby. And if you start treating it like that, then it becomes, you know, does things that the world owns, you know, owns him. The world is there as a resource instead of something that he needs to be in a kind of a relationship with, uh, as a supply more more or less, and as a narcissistic supply for one's own greed. That's why the other doesn't exist. The other becomes a narcissist, you know, they become really dangerous people. Because, you know, not because intentionally they want, they use others as supplies, not as, you know, other subjects of their love. There is no love, I just want it all and I want it for myself, you know, and you don't exist. And as long as you stand in my way, you also, you know, you're gonna be turned into my enemy. Yeah, but that's on the extreme. And this is such an important point because we talk about the attachment period, first 3 years. And this is where Melanie Klein and all of the, you know, sort of psychological thinkers talk about this, is that very early period of attachment. And also, but that period is not just attachment, it's seeing the other. Who is the other in our lives? How do we as parents or How does the caregiver relate to the child? And as you say, you know, there is the golden child, the special child, and do no wrong, and how dangerous that is. But if they're not taught to empathize, if they're taught that the parent is a narcissist, they have to serve the narcissist, what do they turn them into? Or when it, um, if they are You know, if anything can happen, the Machiavellian notion also, does it start at that age when they start manipulating to get what they want? Mm-hmm. Or becoming, you know, psychotic, or, you know, sort of without any feeling for the other person. At what point start? And is it an omen, you know, like the ants that come and actually feed the baby to make them special? Ways that the person is born and the ability to empathize is taken away, or is it there naturally? Do children need to be taught to empathize, you know? And how bad do you— does your child have to be for you to lose that ability to empathize? I think, you know, empathy is something that, you know, in my view, is something that is developed. It's something that you acquire, and it's something that comes out of contact with, with an empathic parent who keeps you in mind, but not, you know, but also not spoils you, not treat you as special in order to use you as a kind of narcissistic supply for their own needs, right? Because that's when to treat you as a special kid, as a golden child, it's almost like, you know, they treat you like that because they benefit out of of, you know, if you are special, you're special for them. Yes, not because you are special, right, as a separate child, as a separate individual. You're only special in relation to their own needs and what they need you for. So you already learned that you are simply a kind of narcissistic supply for your parents. And of course, you know, you either develop a kind of either kind of submissive personality that becomes like becomes quite subservient to someone else's needs, or you identify with the narcissist and you become narcissistic yourself. And that, that can be very dangerous because, you know, in many ways you start seeing others only as things that can give you, you know, what you need and not as separate individuals. And that can cause— can cause a lot of damage because the moment— it's almost like they use people as drugs, as a drug. Yeah. You know, you are used as a drug, as a supply. You are not really exist there as an individual with your own needs and desires. And that, the moment that you are not performing that role, then they either dump you or they, you know, they move on to the next supply. You know, and also I think what is so difficult, and I really, I don't like, um, pouring the power onto parents so it scares them to the point, but there is that scary element of how important parents are. And I think at the moment, because women's lives and men's lives in many ways has become easier the child becomes so important. And I heard when my children were growing up, you know, certain mothers saying, oh, my child, he's 5, he's reading, he's going to be the next Einstein, and so on, you know. And then it all sort of comes out at 13 that they're quite normal. And I think this is the danger if somebody doesn't have their own sense of themselves or have their own entity, their own agency, as you say. If they don't develop themselves and they depend on their child to be an expression of themselves. Or if a child isn't a good enough expression of you. Yes. You know, a child could be identified with a parent or a person in your life that you didn't like. Oh my God. God help the child. But there is the traumatic element that is involved in in kind of the criticism, disapproval, the rejection. So I think there is, you know, there is pathological narcissism and there's also traumatizing narcissism that the parent can exhibit, which is the one that, you know, leaves the child in a kind of double bind, which is on the one hand, you know, they make the child feel shamed and ashamed and embarrassed for wanting to depend and need, you know, neediness. In the child is recognized as something shameful. So they shame the child for feeling needy. Stop being so needy, right? Stop, what do you want from me? But then the moment that the child tries to move and find something else or somewhere else to be independent, then, you know, then they become angry, rejecting, you know, no, you can't do that either. So you can't be dependent, you can't be needy, you can't be independent either. So you are stuck in this limbo. It's so interesting because RD Laing wrote his book about the double bind, the divided self, and also he wrote a play called Knots. Yeah. And that's all about I love you, you love because you love me, and you love me because I love you. And it's that, as we're talking about, into which can happen in later, obviously, in relationships, but in the mother-child or father-child as well. You know, sort of who does the child represent? And as long as the child loves you, they're there for you, but they are only there if they do what you want them to do and cannot be an expression of themselves. That is so dangerous, very dangerous. And of course, you know, I want to say that, you know, treating the child at the beginning of its life as something, you know, important and special is significant as well. But if you carry on doing that without, you know, there is something about you that want to maintain that specialism. It's not about the child anymore. Yeah. Because finally there needs to be disillusion from that sort of initial stage of omnipotence or stage of, you know, to realize that there are other, you know, human beings like the mother, the father, the siblings or others, that they have needs and, you know, and is, is, is important, but is not the only important person in the family, right? It's not the center of the universe and his needs are not more important than others. And of course, to make that, make that, to socialize someone into that, it needs, you know, it needs a kind of optimal frustration and an optimal disillusionment instead of a failure in provision, which sometimes becomes very impinging and very traumatizing, you know, which of course leads to the, you know, I mean, narcissists themselves, you know, Midas, Midas, they, and greedy person, they don't become greedy out of nothing, right? They become narcissistic out of nothing. They become because they are very traumatized and deprived people themselves, right? And they want everything and anything right now, and they cannot wait. They are impulsive. They don't have any— they feel rage when there's not given what they want. No, I want it now. And if you don't, if you withhold it, then they become enraged with you. So there is something about that that shows. But there is something in that story as well that, that in many ways makes Midas, uh, makes Midas, um, a little bit more— is the love for his daughter. When he realizes what happens to his daughter, then he really repents. But he's not, you know, he doesn't keep this repentance going. He doesn't feel remorse. I mean, It doesn't count. He's lucky stars, you know. I think Dionysus has been too good, actually. Yes, I agree. You know, he should have— he's too grateful. He's too grateful, and he shouldn't have given him everything back, you know. He gets everything back, he becomes the king, he enjoys his kingdom, and then, you know, he becomes hubristic again when he chooses, uh, you know to, you know, when he becomes, when he praises, he chooses the model of Apollo again, right? And so he's, you know, he feels that he's important enough to pass judgment over a good, right? That you are not as good enough, I choose someone else, you know, a simple sort of mortal or in another version of the myth is a kind of satire again, you know, or pan. Pan. Yes, another version of me, that Pan, who is like a semi, semi-god, right? But he's not as important as Apollo, who is the, who is the god of music, by the way. Exactly, exactly. So there he is telling the god of music that he's not good enough. He's not good enough. I mean, it's, this is hubristic and is considered to be, you know, but then, but so he doesn't learn his lesson again. Right? He's going into, and then he's punished again. And this time he's punished with ridicule that he cannot, you know, quite, he hides it, but you know, eventually, eventually he cannot hide it because, you know, the secret will out. But can you think that's true? I mean, without taking it, which I like to do, you know, sort of about how narcissism can turn into something psychopathic. Because it is on that spectrum. But just on the narcissistic spectrum, eventually you are going to be, you are going to be made to look a fool. Because what narcissists forget to do is fill themselves with skills and the real knowledge. They just assume it. They will steal from other people. They will just need that adulation so much that they don't care how they get it, and they don't care— actually, it's not relevant that they are full of knowledge. They don't work, they just take it, they just steal it from somebody else. Yes, yes. In a way, that's the hubris that Midas did in the end. It's like, I am this god, I am the person in charge, I am the judge here, the judge and jury. But also what's so powerful is that it is his daughter that showed him at that initial point, you know, sort of what happens if you are too narcissistic. And then his daughter can end up him not being able to have his daughter's love. But I do think that's the power of children. Yes, yes. Parents very often where they're going wrong, where they're going right. It can be painful for parents as well if they don't understand. But I think what you mentioned, Maria, about knowledge and how they are in many ways, they don't want to work hard to gain the knowledge. They want to study, they don't want to engage with knowledge, they don't want to ask the questions, they don't want to make the, to put the work in a way, to make this, to own it and work it and, you know, process it. So they much rather, you know, instead of, for example, reading a full book on Freud, they will read the Wikipedia entry, right? Yeah. So they will get the kind of knowledge and then they will— it's almost like they will get the supply they need so they feel— or if they find someone who is very knowledgeable, then they admire them and they really appreciate them. And they just stick to them as, as, you know, as kind of leeches that they get them the blood supply they need from another because they cannot provide it themselves. So they— that's why you see a lot of, um, narcissists, you know, being attracted to, you know, admiring, but they're not really admiring, but, uh, you know, very identifying special people because they, they need to get the knowledge out of them, but without them doing the work of getting the knowledge, you know, that somehow they will be infused with knowledge by the other. Yes, totally. By simply by, by osmosis. Yeah. By being related to another who is knowledgeable and done the work and feel special and intellectual, then they can, then they feel they can relate to, they feel they're special themselves by relating themselves to them. Don't we see that a lot with celebrities and everyone works with the celebrity? They're in that halo, that narcissistic halo, you know. Oh, I work with so-and-so, and they are deemed to be even more special because they work within that sphere of celebrity rather than gaining something themselves or doing something that gives the status themselves. And I— but that is again what happens with parents who don't fulfill their own lives and If, say, a father wants to be a footballer and their son shows great football potential, you know, then that child becomes his— the apple of his eye. So he— the child becomes his footballer. And so the weight on that child, the burden, great if the child can live it out, but what if the child can't? Yes, absolutely. We see it a lot with examples of celebrities and singers and, you know, performers who The parents, in a way, they were the managers and coaches, right? I think, I think, you know, I was reading somewhere about Beyoncé, for example, that— oh yeah, her father, her father, right? There was, there was this sort of— which of course invested all of this, and but then, you know, Beyoncé was simply an extension of his own ambition. It wasn't, it wasn't separate, you know. And then it took quite a lot to be able to separate and make yourself, you know, to identify yourself as separate from, from from her father. But this is what I mean. There is something about, you know, especially quite a lot of performers who start from a very young age, you know, with encouragement of the parents, there is something about fulfilling the parents' ambitions as a narcissistic extension of themselves. Which, you know, by having a child who is very talented and, you know, performs well, then you feel that, you know, you validate your own narcissistic, you get your own narcissistic supply. But you don't recognize the child as different, like having their own needs. And that is— and of course the children, because they want this love from the parent, they think they get this love from the parent, they will do anything to please them until, of course, a moment that they cannot do that anymore. And but don't you think if you look at somebody like Britney Spears, her father was her manager, and I think both her parents were, and then but it gets to a point where the child can't exist without somebody like that. You know, I remember being at a dinner and, um, somebody came up and he was quite a well-known agent, and I was talking to somebody who'd been on one of those TV programs, and, uh, he said, I'm so sorry I've left you for 2 hours, but it was a dinner, it was a charity dinner. I said, oh, it's okay, you know, he was fine, we were just chatting. But he sort of imposed his will on the artist. You need me, you need me to be your agent, you need me to look after you. They infantilize people. And parents can keep their child in an infant-like state, state, but the child themselves finds it very hard to grow up after that because this growing up period with a parent is so important. Because the parent, they know the good enough parent— we're not talking about the special parent, we're not talking about somebody who's amazing— the good enough normal parent will enable the child to fall over, make mistakes, do things wrong, and bring them back to the center point, which is right. If they're not given that, that child will be an infant for the rest of their lives, potentially. Yes. So can a narcissist— and this is the big question— if they're brought up through a narcissistic parent or as a narcissist, you know, where they are dependent on their parents, can they ever grow up through that? I wonder if that's going to be far too difficult as an adult to work their way through that without therapy. And without— we're not talking about counselors, we're talking about deep therapy that has to happen here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not always that the narcissist can actually benefit I mean, there is some hope, there is some sense of benefiting from therapy and making sense that where the other starts to register. And there is a sense that you can exist independent of that sort of dynamic, of the narcissistic dynamic that is established between them and the parents, where they don't need to be, to remain in this infant state of constantly needing to be satisfied by the other or provide the kind of narcissistic supply to them. Parent in a way, because to be in this relationship of neediness, mutual neediness in a way. So it is possible, it can happen, but it's a very difficult work, very difficult work, and it's sometimes exhausting. And it is possible, but you know, usually it happens when the narcissist arrives at the point where he runs out of narcissistic supplies. Or there is a sense of his or her own image that starts to crack and not to be able to maintain the integrity or the appearance of integrity, because there is no real integrity, the appearance of integrity that presents to others. And that usually comes with age, old age, right? So a kind of midlife crisis. Usually happens around that. It's very crucial, you know, with old age, or it happens with, uh, because youthfulness is also another, you know, time is not something that registers. They have to remain always infant, you know, in this infant youthful state. And, you know, beauty and infancy and, you know, appearance always valued as being quite doll-like. And, you know, having the admiration of others is very important. Right? To feel that you are admired and feel that you're beautiful and attract the attention of others. But then, you know, once this starts to go, then there is a big— the narcissistic wounds start to appear. And then perhaps the pain of what happened and what, you know, and the choices you made in life start to come through. And in a way, the story— what's so interesting, as you say, you know, he had everything. So that is like a child, if you take it from a child to an adult. He had everything. He was given the golden opportunity to have more. He then realized by having more, it could also ruin his own relationships. And then growing into adulthood, he didn't quite understand, you know, sort of where the gods were, what the right, the, the way of the world, let's say, power. The importance of power. And I do think people are missing that when they make money. What we're seeing over and over again in the corporate world, and you see it on Wall Street and you see it here in all— globally, people think that's the be-all and end-all. They buy it, they buy their watches, they buy their houses, everything they want, their yachts and so on. And then suddenly, what else is there for them if they don't have a decent relationship?, or if their children have left them. Yeah, yeah. And they realize that, you know, with all the money and all the, you know, at the end of the day, you left with your golden children, but you feel very empty and deprived yourself. Like King Midas, now he's going to die from thirst and hunger, right? Yeah. And, you know, he lost his daughter, he lost the connections with his old kingdom, they everything into gold, but all the gold in the world cannot bring back what is important in life. And he's gonna die, you know, from his greed, because that's what greed does. Greed does— it destroys, is destructive, you know. In the attempt to turn everything into gold, you destroy it. You destroy the object that can keep you alive. And that's where I, you know, and I know religion has bad press, And I'm not talking about that religion. I think religion needs to be transformed at the moment. But let's talk about the principles of a higher being that you aim to become better, you know, as an archetype. You know, the, the concept of God and the devil are good and very important for us as human beings to remember, to keep us in check, actually. And it doesn't matter how you look at You know, but to have somebody else that's bigger and better than you in your mind's eye and in your soul and in the depth of who you are is so important to know that you're a god. Because that's what he did. He became the judge of a god and he became a god himself. He was more important than he was, became more. That's exactly what, you know, narcissist, pathological narcissist— because let's, let's be clear here, narcissism is not is pathological, right? We need a certain level of— We need to be narcissistic to a great extent. We have to, it's important for our survival, for our development. There is a healthy narcissism which has to do with accepting with self-esteem, self-worth, being able to share one's sort of, to receive praise and give praise and without feeling ashamed or embarrassed about this, to be generous and to receive generosity. And I think all of these are part of a healthy narcissism. But there is some part of narcissistic sort of development that can go really wrong, really wrong, and that, that can lead to something which leads to, you know, a very pathological and traumatic, traumatic narcissism, which can be horrible for, you know, for relationships, for the individual. And, and fundamentally is built on an idea of an ego which is very fragile and very weak, and not a strong one, not one that relates, able to appreciate others, and, and feels in many ways godlike, you know. The idea of being omnipotent, omnipresent, outside time, you know, uh, not affected by death. This is the— this is immortal in a way. All of these are attributes of the gods, you know. So as mere mortal, to think that you are immortal, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient— this is happening at the moment. All of these, all of these are characteristics of how mortals start thinking, you know, they are gods. Right. And, and then of course, having this idea that we are mere mortals, even without the idea that there is a Godhead, right. But we are mere mortals and we are, you know, we are limited. We are, we are lacking. We are not, uh, we are not gonna be always, you know, uh, always around. And, uh, death is part of, of our existence. We cannot just avoid it. Right? And actually, we might not want to avoid it, you know, necessarily at some point in our life, but towards the end of our life. But there is something about this which is, which is very crucial to limit our powers and feel ourselves that our powers exist within the sphere of what is possible. And what is, what is possible is quite wonderful. If you, if you make, if you take advantage of it, you know. But I think there is, I think there is something about this, you know, turning this life into this perfect, you know, life of perfection, impossibility, omniscience, you know, can lead to, to very traumatic aspects, both for the narcissists themselves but also for others who are related Mm. But also, what money does at the moment, it can feed the minds of others who want to become gods. You know, we saw that with COVID where scientists were saying, I am science. Like, instead of I am God, I am science. I am the bestower of all knowledge on the world. I know what is happening. I know how you can live your life. And I do think we're moving into a world where there's going to be this big disruption, where ordinary people who actually are not quite so ordinary, who know what the value of life is— and life is not money. Money is a way of living life, but it isn't everything. And as you say, and this is where Midas comes into play here, what is the cost of having all that money? Without the knowledge of the value of it. And that's why Dionysus said to him, are you sure you want to touch everything and make it into gold? Are you sure you want to? And yet nobody listens to that voice of, are you sure you want this? And the daughter, once the daughter was lost, once he had turned his daughter into gold and she couldn't hug him anymore, that human contact is happening in life at the moment. And people, certain people recognize that and they think, no, this is the value for me. Because I'm sure like you, you hear about lots of people who are on their deathbed. And like you, I'm sure neither of us have ever heard somebody say, I wish I'd bought another yacht. Yes. It's always, oh my goodness, I need to reconcile a relationship. 'Um, I wish I hadn't spoken to somebody like that,' or, 'Oh, you know, can you tell so-and-so?' And, you know, you heard it— we'd hear it over and over again on the fields during the war. Lots of young men would call for their mothers. You know, it was, 'Where do I go back to for safety and security?' But also for that love, what becomes so important. And I do think that people have started recognizing that money is not everything. And that need and greed for money, just where does it send you? We had The Wolf of Wall Street, so that was a great film, just indication of what happens in the world. But lots of people do actually sell their soul to the devil. Yeah, say, I will do anything to make money. Yes, yes. I agree, and there is something about that that we experience now. Of course, you know, for people who don't have money and they are really starving and they find it very difficult to make ends meet, especially during this cost of living crisis, of course money is important and it is important to remember that. But I think the people who have so much that they cannot have any more, but they want even more because it becomes— this itself becomes a religion. I think, you know, Walter talked about greed and especially, you know, the kind of the financial greed that we experience nowadays as another form of religion, you know, how much is enough, right? I think in our world we're just beginning to experience that. We've never had, we've had kings who've had money, i.e., King Midas, and it was a true story. He did exist, and there was that essence that, um, that his reign was, you know, sort of very successful, very productive. But now this is global. Your power can be global, and we're seeing that what happens when people become global. And I do believe that the power really lies within the ordinary person. I agree with you. I think We should never be in a position now where people are hungry or needing financial support or without somewhere to live. That should be part of who we are as humanity. Just make that as a basic tenet of global humanity. Who are we as a race of people? And as a human race, we must look after others. And that's incredibly important. And as you say, everybody needs a certain amount of money. I mean, that stress off people, especially when some people are overwhelmed with money, but the wrong way. They look the wrong way. They want to make themselves either more powerful financially or more powerful in terms of how they treat the world. Yes, yes. Making food, you know, sort of in a different way. So now they're talking about making meat in a laboratory. Yes, they're trying all sorts of AI and everything like this, and it's becoming so robotic, so detached. Actually, it's almost psychopathic. Yes, it is. There is, there is that. I mean, it's removed, you know, the more that you live in this fantasy world, that you feel that, you know, you can create anything in terms of your own power and your omnipotence, then you lose touch with what is real. And it becomes, you know, it becomes psychopathic, becomes a sense of, you know, almost psychotic, right? The sense of, you know, being detached from what is real and what is possible. And then you create, you feel you can create the impossible. And then sometimes you might wonder, I don't want this impossible. There are things that are real, things that we need to be concerned about. I don't want to achieve the impossible. Impossible, you know. Let's leave the impossible for another day. Let's deal with the issues we have where people are suffering and are really struggling, right? And I think this is what we're facing today. And it's really sometimes, you know, it's okay. We know we don't want to achieve another sort of billionaire in the, you know, sending in the moon, right? Or on the orbit of the moon. I don't care. Yeah, exactly. You can have your tea. If you go with the moon, you know, whoever, Bezos or whoever this is, you know, I just want, I just want, you know, I want something which is possible. And, you know, which is possible with the amount of money and the amount productivity and the level of production we achieved in the world today that, you know, nobody should go hungry, you know? And I think this is, this is, this is a possibility. Mm, it is, it should be. You know, and, and I think this is where Midas, you know, comes to remind us of, you know, of, of that greed, of that sense of, uh, and also it's interesting because in many ways he wrongs both the god of, of entertainment, music, and fun, and, you know, and Dionysus, but also the god of, uh, of knowledge, of music, of, of, of, of culture. So You have, you know, in many ways the combination of the Apollonian and Dionysian is what creates the Greek tragedy, right? It's actually the Greek culture, you know, the Apollonian and Dionysian is the thing that brings a kind of balance between a life of pleasure and a life of knowledge. Absolutely. And between truth and desire. The two, between knowledge and desire, between the sense of these two, they need to coexist and there needs to be balance between the two. And Greek tragedy is created out of this combination. And Greek culture, in a way, in ancient Greek, created a kind of the means, the Aristotle, you know, mean is the definition of tragedy is by bringing these two together and creating something beautiful in order to express the truth of tragedy, but the truth of the tragedy of life, but also to be able to bear it in a Apollonian kind of way. But the thing is that Dionysus and Apollo exist side by side, and Midas, you know, goes, you know, he pleases Dionysus, but he also offends him, you know, by using the power that was given to him for fun in a very abusive hedonistic way, in excessive way. In this way. And then he offends Apollo as well. So he's offending both the principles of Greek life. And of course, you have to remember that he's not Greek. You know, the Greeks have chosen a king who wasn't Greek. He was from Phrygia, who wasn't Greek. He was an outsider. He was an outsider. He described that he doesn't live, you know, everything according to moderation. Something you've said there is so important, you know, the truth and the desire. But don't you think this is where I think Freud went wrong in his theory? Because he had an opportunity to create an impact with his theory and he skewed it incorrectly. He, instead of sort of giving it to the parents and, you know, sort of saying to parents, you've got to look at how you influence the child, blah blah He says it comes from the child. And of course the child's going to want everything. That's what we're talking about. That's the nature of a child. I need, I want, you know, oceanic, it's omnipotent. I want everything. And a parent has to teach a child, no, this is the real life. This is the life that you should be leading. And truth comes in that. And there has to be a universal truth. Because at the moment there's this idea of my truth. No. Yes, there's your view of an accident, but there's a reality in that accident. But I think with Freud, you have a version of that, but it comes with the Oedipus complex, the no of the father, right? There is the sense that, you know, you can't have everything. You can only have what is— you can't have your mother, you can't have your power. There are differences between genders and between generations, right? This is what the Oedipus You can't be everything, you can't have everything, you can't want everything, you can only want what you can want. You can't get what you want, you can want what you get. Yes. And what you see. What you see. Because we start, we want, we can get, I think if I want it, I can get it, you know, that's another thing, right? I can get what I want, you know, always. 'But you know, it's different, you know, let's see what you can get and then you can start wanting.' You know, and I think this is the task of our lives. Whereas the narcissist remains in this, 'Well, I want it all and I want it now.' Yeah, but don't you think our culture is a bit more Dionysian at the moment? That it allows people to get what they want financially? So they give them that. But not really, you see, this is the problem. It's not really Dionysian because, you know, Dionysus doesn't exist in isolation. He also exists with the pantheon. And I think, you know, for Dionysus to exist, he needs to be with other gods. He cannot be on his own. On his own, you know, a purely hedonistic culture is not really Dionysian, you know. Dionysian festivals were arranged throughout the year in order to be able to give, you know, to experience pleasure and hedonism as part of life, because we need it. As well. You know, we shouldn't be puritanical about this. Yeah, you know, we need to honor the body and its desires. And I think that the Greeks knew that, and that's why they had Dionysian festivals. And actually, the tragedies were performed during the Dionysian festivals, right, to honor Dionysus. But, but you see, the, the thing there is that, you know, if, if, if there isn't This is seen as moments, opportunities for something to come into the— but life as well, the Greeks realize it's not just fun and enjoyment, you know, there's also suffering which is unavoidable. There is loss, there is death, there is suffering. So, you know, you need these moments of catharsis, you need these moments of, you know, but then you need to put it within the context of a larger life. Of Apollonian knowledge and truth in order to matter. Otherwise, it becomes simply hedonistic. So the life that we live is not Dionysian, it's actually, it's a perversion of Dionysian. Yeah, exactly. So I agree because they're making it, they're trying to isolate that without the whole context of the Greeks were intending this. And I totally agree with you. And I think this is where people are suffering because they're not contextualizing it effectively. Pleasures, the pleasures of the body, of food, having good food, good sex, good life, I mean, they are important to us, you know, we shouldn't, we should have them, but they come within the context of, you know, our responsibility to ourselves and others, you know, and to the suffering and, you know, and all the other Truths of life, you know, our desire and truth and desire, they should work hand by hand, right? Truths, the multiple truths we have about our lives and desires, they should work hand in hand and they should be either in conflict but in tension with one another instead of giving, you know, rise to one or the other, right? A life without pleasure is also a very austere life and we don't want right, right, but a life only of pleasure, then it misses out something very important, which is, you know, our responsibility to others and our responsibility to— that we cannot exist just on our own. We cannot just, you know, like with Midas realizes, if I turn everything into gold, there's nothing remain. I will be on my own, and then I will— there is nothing. I will die. Yeah, totally. There's nothing, there's nothing left for me here. That's this exactly. He can't nourish himself. And actually, he won't have anyone to be able to exhibit his wealth. And, you know, and nobody will tell him how amazing he is. That's right. Even, even in that, you know, the tragedy. That's why narcissists, you know, of the Midas type, they are quite, you know, they end up, they end up being very miserable. And, you know, that's why the old age, real that they have cut all the links that keep them alive and keep them sustained. And since the narcissistic supply start to die one after the other, and then you're left and you can't use your influence, your beauty, your— you can't be seductive, manipulative to do that. You end up, you end up very, very quickly realizing that, you know, you need others. And once you start feeling that, then you become very miserable and very They, they're afraid. And, uh, and I think, you know, some of them get there earlier than others, but some of them that also never realize. And it's a waste of life, you know. You know, for, for a narcissistic, pathologically narcissistic individual, let's put it that way, there is a certain level of sadness, you know, of a waste of life, you know. It's a wasted life. It's a life, uh, wasted on something that is not fulfilling and is not nourishing. But don't you think that, um, people aren't taught how to look at life? I mean, we are here for a small period of time in reality. I always look at timelines in different lengths, if you like. So we have the instant where great things are happening, and, you know, that goes quickly, and terrible things happen, and that goes slowly.. But suddenly, you know, sort of when you're 10, like, you're never going to be 20. And that, you know, sort of that 10 years is eternal. And then suddenly from 20 to 50, it's like, where's it gone? And then so on. And time changes. But suddenly you are, you realize you're only here for a short period of time. What are you going to do with your life? How do you view your life? That's why I love mythology. It gives you an opportunity to review your life. Every opportunity. That's why I love theater. Correct. You know, when it— because Bruno Bettelheim did a lot about this, the uses of enchantment, and talked about a lot of this. And he had his followers at Marie-Louise von Franz. And of course, dream work does that. It becomes your own internal theater where you can review your life. What is the value of what I'm doing here? And to find your value, to find something that really excites you that isn't financially led necessarily. It could be, that's great, but what do you do with that when you've got it? How do you use it productively to make the world a better place? That you're not just here for yourself, but as you say, it is a relationship. You are in relation to the world, you're not in isolation. So when you think about As I said, you know, nobody says I want another yacht. And what does a yacht signify? You're out at sea on your own, basically. Who wants that really in their lives? You have no relationship with anybody. You're not there amongst the community. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the narcissistic fantasy is that I will create a community which I will rule and everybody will admire me because I give all this money so I can buy the love and admiration. So I don't need really to relate truly to others. But you know, that's, that's one thing that is very easily recognized by that, that if you, if you use or manipulate or seduce others into admiring you and giving you what you want, you very quickly realize that this type of love is not worth its salt because it's taken out of seduction and manipulation or out of buying, you know, buying, buying it, you know, through your money. But it's not something that is, is, is worth the shot because you're not giving freely and spontaneously. The subject, it feels like you have controlled the other giving you what you want. It's not same thing. It's almost like you make them need you, want you in a certain way.