Your Mind Matters – Gayle Hiller, Power Of The Absent Father

Father, oh Father, where art thou? The father, both actually and symbolically, plays a vital role in the life of every child. When a child is born, ideally the father is there to protect, guide and oversee the mother who is nurturing the baby. In the past, the father was the hunter, gatherer and protector while the mother nourished and cared for the baby. Now, here in 2021 in the Western world, we are moving towards a very different, caring, hands on father. The role of the provider is being taken up by society or equally distributed with the mother. And it is so welcome for today's children. Andrew Samuels has written a book called the Father in which he discusses the role of the actual father and the symbolic father. In C.G. jung's theory, he identified the symbolic father, which he named the animus. It's an archetype or image which resides deep within our collective unconscious. This is an understanding of who the father should be. It is that part of ourselves which at first is represented by the actual father. He is the masculine nature within the feminine. As a therapist, I aim to identify this masculine nature within the feminine. It is the action taker, whilst the feminine is the feeling nature. We all have the masculine aspect within us and it is this that enables us to drive forward and make our lives productive. But what if the father is not there? Or if the father abandons the child? How does this affect the child? The emotional residue of an absent father, that is the father who emotionally betrays his children, is being observed by many children in our society. They in turn unconsciously replay the absent father in their relationships and in their children's relationships. There are also times that the father who was present and who showed love is suddenly gone. He has given a sense of who he is and taken it away. The child is left searching for the father and this betrayal is profound and severe. The betrayal becomes a wound. If we have been overwhelmed by the wound from the father, the feeling nature can overtake our lives. I am Dr. Maria Kempenska and this is yous Mind Matters. Today my guest, Gail Hiller is exploring her experience of the loss of her father, not through death, because that came later, but by the emotionally damaging effect of neglect. Gail has called her book no More Kisses for Me. Welcome Gail and thank you for joining me today. Your successful book is called no More Kisses For Me. So can you tell me why did you choose this title? Well, I. Hello. I chose the title no More Kisses For Me because my father wrote the biggest Eurovision winning song with the Brotherhood of Man and it was entitled Save All Your kisses for me. Two days after he won the Eurovision contest, he walked out on my family and myself, leaving me absolutely broken and devastated. And you're right to say that when the father leaves, it leaves a terrible wound and a lot of hurt. It also brings. It also brings a load of problems for that child, especially when they become a woman, a young woman, you know, the typical father daughter relationship. I had all those symptoms and it has been really hard for me. It's. I've. I've really had that hurt all my life. But parallel to that, a year before he won the Eurovision Song Contest and won, I was in a terrible accident. I was in a coma, fighting for my life. So, you know, I had to learn to walk and to talk again. I walked with a limp. I had brain injuries. So to have two traumatic things happen to you within two years. Gail, how old were you? Well, I believe I was 15 when my father wrote save your kisses for me by the brotherhood of man. So it was. I was like, about 14, 13, nearly 14, when. When I had the accident, it was coming home from school and I actually remember I'd been cooking and I had this. You know, those orange tins, I think would be quite classic now. It's like an orange tin with a pattern on and my brown briefcase in the other hand. And in fact, now I can see walking out, because I went to convent school, walking out to the gates and my mind, even to this day, has gone blank. Oh, thank you. Yeah. So that's when the accident happened. Yes. And how. Yeah. And you said you were in hospital for how long did you say? I really don't know. I really don't know because I was in a coma. And then I remember being on the ward, I. I felt that I was being abused on the ward because they used to tie me up. I. I mean, I never want to go there. And this also has affected me all my life. I was actually a living hell. I remember being on the bed and sort of being conscious, not being able to move my body. It felt like cement. And I used to say to myself all the time, if I close my eyes and I open them, I'm going to be home. And this is all a dream. And this became like a mantra. This went on and on and on. It was the worst time. In fact, I say, it's like a living hell. And even affected me now, of course it did, because at that time, weren't you going to dance and drama? Weren't you aiming to be in the theatre? Yes, yes. I used to Go. I used to. Yes. And I remember I always used to go to Covent Garden. I used to take ballet, tap lessons. And then we all used to go to the bar where this lady called Maria made the most wonderful milkshakes in Covent Garden. Did she? Yes. Fantastic. And then, not only did you have to get through that, which must have been really incredibly difficult. So there you are, young teenager, coming into your life. You have this terrible accident which paralyzes you. You come out of a coma, so you must have been totally devastated. So not only did it affect your personal life as a young woman, but also your ability to, you know, move forward in the theatre world and also in your school world. Because it's such a pivotal age, isn't it? Teenage years, as you know, because you're a mum now and a grandmother, which we'll come to, but, you know, And a wonderful grandmother. I know that, Mother. But, you know, it's such a pivotal age for you to have something as terrible and devastating as that to happen to you. It is, because you're moving from a child into an adolescent. So that brings with it all the emotions and everything. But also I had to have a year off school because obviously I remember in those days, you know, the doctor used. She was in a lovely Irish man. He's just. With really strong accent. He used to come to the house every day when we lived in Hadley Common. And he used to make me try and write because I couldn't write, help me with my talking and obviously with my limp. And I remember I used to. I don't know if it was a frustration or the trauma of the accident, but sometimes I just used to scream. It was almost like Exorcist. I don't know why it just. Just screamed because the. You know, any form of that severe nature of an accident would leave you wanting to scream. You know, whatever happens, you were totally. I mean, in a coma. You must have been, you know, as you said, you were physically affected and you had a year off school. Of course, that's how your whole life has changed in that one moment. And I've spoken to people who've gone through car accidents in the past and actually it really affects them very, very severely. So it's understandable you feel like that. And also when you say the screaming, because I suppose I did it because I could, because I remember lying in the hospital and I was that petrified young girl. Nobody explained what had happened to me and. And there were times when I used to lay on the bed, not being able to move my body and scream out for help, but it was like no voice came out. It was almost like I was screaming in my head. It really was the most awful time. And up to now it has affected me. I mean, there's been times where I haven't wanted to sleep because I've been scared that I'm going to go back to that time. Right. I've basically handled a lot of things on my own because I wasn't able to tell anyone, even my parents, how I felt when I had that accident. And was that because your father left soon afterwards, that you weren't given that space to say anything? Yes, because obviously after the accident, with my father leaving, that took over. I didn't sort of think about the accident so much then because I had this awful other trauma of my father who. And I must say I love my father and. But I put him on a pedestal. I call his family and peers and, you know, after he walked out, I was so devastated and I did anything to see him, seriously. I just wanted to be with him. And I even cut my wrists. And were you still a teenager when you did that? Yes, well, it was a year after the accident. I was, yes, it was. So immediately then. Yeah. And how was your mother? How did she cope? And how did she manage to look after you? Or did she manage to look after you? No. Well, I was told she had a sort of breakdown because when the day of the accident came, she used to meet me with her Yorkshire terrier major and she came over to meet me from school and apparently she saw that there was all these people. It was near the lamppost and there's all these people. And she went to have a look and she said to someone, what's happened? And she looked down and there was a jacket on, on this person and I think the jacket had moved and she saw it was me. So obviously she was in shock as well. So apparently my father's sisters used to come and make food and everything. So my mother had the most awful shock as well, and I don't think it could have been easy for her. And especially. And especially when you're in the way that your father left as well. So there you were, you're just getting over your own accident, sort of trying to come back to yourself. And then your father left in a very abrupt way. Yes, he. Apparently my mother's, because I was staying with, like I call my auntie and uncle. She was like another mother to me. And I absolutely love staying, staying there. I was really happy there. So I was there In Loudoun. And I remember, you know, my auntie had one of those big phones, you know, like the phone boxes on the. And I remember my aunt saying, you know, your mum wants to speak to you. And she. And I remember the word. She said, gail, your father has walked out and I want you to come home. And I said, but I don't want to come home, I want to stay here. Please can I stay here? She said, no, you've got to come home. And she told me later that my father came down the stairs with a suitcase. He hadn't said anything to my mother before. He put £5 on the table and he just left. And my mother had met him when she was 18, you know, and she'd stayed with him for 20 years. He was like the only man she'd been with. So I mean, now that I'm older I feel the pain that my mother feels because even now when she talks about my father, I can see that she's got tears in her eyes. It's a very callous way to go, isn't is? Such an abrupt way without explaining. And then you went home and did you have to look out? Did you look after your mother? You know, I don't remember because also my memory is a bit. I don't remember. I remember that they had private nurses for me. I had a private nurse, her name was Josie, Lovely lady. And she stayed for about six months and then I had another nurse who was looking after me and can you believe she used to let me smoke. That's funny. As they did in those days. Yeah, I used to go into the study, the spare room, she used to give me cigarettes. Oh, that's funny. But you're not that old, let's put it into perspective. But that's funny because it's, you know, things have only changed recently. But you've actually. You've written this book in such a beautiful way because they're all a series of letters, aren't they? Yes. When my father died, I couldn't grieve. I think it exasperated all the issues I had, all the past, you know, and all the hurt because I had to love my father from afar and I think it brought everything up. And when I could, I used to go to my local coffee shop and as a catalyst to self healing, I used to get my phone out and I used to write on my Samsung notes and I used to write to my father and I mean, many a times I used to sit at the back of the cafe and my tears used to mix with the coffee. And how did you come about publishing it? How was that decision made to actually put these letters, which are very deep, very moving, very profound, into a book? What made you decide to actually publish them? Well, the thing is, it was never going to be a book. I didn't write it as a book. And the publishers decided they've left it. I mean, I think there's some things that are slightly repetitive, but they, you know, the publisher said they could have edited it. You know, they would have edited the life out of it. So they've just left it really raw, really emotional. My cousin, obviously, we were really close to each other. She was like my sister. And she really. Her and her husband really helped me with this bereavement. They were like my counselors. And I used to read them, the letters to her. And, you know, like, one letter became two, two. Two letters became three. And in the end, she said to me, you know what, Gail? She said, I'm riveted by those letters. You know, it could be a book. And I said, I don't think so. And they're very personal, and I don't want it. And then she said, well, it could help other people. People could resonate with it. People that have gone through a bereavement or a breakup, you know, with one of their family divorced. So when she put it like that, I said, okay. So she knew a publisher, and the publisher said he was really interested in, you know, in publishing this book. What's your cousin's name? Sorry? Just so that we get that we can refer to her with a name. What's your cousin's name? Caroline Stevens. Caroline. So Blaine. Caroline. That's Eric's. Eric's sister. Eric Hall's sister now. Eric hall, the famous Eric Hall. Yes. Who passed. Was it a couple of years ago now? Yes. Yeah. So he is. This is his sister, Caroline. So that's how she understood this. Now, we can give a bit of an intro to Eric, because he is the famous bubbler. Bubbler. Eric Monster. Monster Hall. Now, tell us about Eric. A little bit. A wonderful man, wonderful character. I worked with him in the past. Absolutely. The thing was, I think him and my father had a bit of a falling out. And when I knew that, you know, my dad had liver cancer. I mean, he was 91 and he was dying, I said. I actually phoned Eric up. I said, you know what, Eric? I think you should see my dad. You should see him, because he hasn't got, you know, because he kept saying, how's your dad? How's your dad Ninja. And I said, look, Eric, whatever's happened between you and my dad, you know, just forget about it. I think you should go and see him. So it's a bit of a story, you know, there's a bit of a strain with my father's second wife. And actually she said, oh. I said, oh, can I come? Because I still had to ask when I could come to see my dying father, like make an appointment. So I said, I'd like to come this day. And Eric said, well, don't tell her I'm coming. She said, you go there and tell her that I'm going to come and, and then you come and meet me at the station. So I said, okay. So I went there and I, you know, I saw, saw my dad, the, the Marie Curie lady was there, the carer was there and everything. And then I just said to her, I said, oh. I said I'd hardly been there. And Eric phoned me, he went bubbler. He said, I'm here. He was really early and we were to meet at Lancaster Gate. He said, can you come and meet me at the station? I said, okay. So I seemed very weird, so got there for a few minutes and I said, I've got to go now. I said, but I'll be back. So she said, oh, you don't have to come back. I said, no, I will. And I didn't want to say that I'm meeting Eric. Of course, after five minutes I left and I, I walked, you know, about 10 minutes away to Lancaster Gate Station. Suddenly Eric phones me, he goes, you know how it goes. Oh, what a schmuck I am. He said, I got off, I'm at Paddington and it was a from Lancaster Gate to Puddington and we're like looking for each other. So anyway, eventually we, we saw each other and then we walked back to my dad's place. I didn't say anything, you know, so, and. And that was that. And he went to see my dad and there was loads of people there visiting my dad and he really made my dad laugh. I mean, that was time before my dad lost his voice and couldn't speak and was sort of gone. But he really made my dad laugh. So that must have been a very proud moment for you as well, because you made that healing happen. Do you know what? I do feel good about that, yes. Yeah. Because that's such a profound moment and Eric was a funny man. We lost Eric, as you said. Well, he's your related to you, but you know, he's a Very, very funny man. So I can imagine he made your dad laugh and everybody else laugh with all his stories. Yes. It must have been a wonderful moment for you. But you said, and I think this is quite an important part of your book, about the woman that your father married that left your mother for. Left you for. And you call her she or her throughout the book. Do you want to explain why you chose to do that? Yes, I called her she because she is just a pronoun and it's a naming word. And she never had any children. She didn't want to be called grandma, nanny, or anything of that. And she was just, you know, we used to see her. We used to have to make an appointment to see my father every month for every four to six weeks. And, you know, she was very sort of verbal in when we could see my dad. So I don't think that she should be called anything she doesn't deserve. Also detaches you from her, doesn't it? It gives you that detachment because there wasn't. You felt. There wasn't a closeness. No, there wasn't a closeness at all. I really tried. I tried to be close, but there just wasn't. I felt that she just didn't like me. And I felt almost that she didn't like the closeness at the beginning that my father and I had. So do you want to go into that a bit more? Yes. I remember one of the first conversations I had with her. She said, oh, your father told me that when you lived with him, they were the worst times of your life. I mean, what a thing to say to someone. Definitely. And, you know, she was always commenting or when we'd sit around the table at my dad's, you know, I'd really try, because I'm not a bad person. I'm really not. And I'd try to make conversation. And whatever I said, I sometimes saw it. But then my daughters told me she'd make a funny face, you know, if I'd made a remark about something, think, or. But those times that I did go and see my dad, I mean, at first we used to go to. I used to meet at an Iranian restaurant. And then after, like, the past year, we used to go to the house and she used to make us a meal, and it was very strained. It was really strained, what with her and my dad, it was awful. I mean, I used to say to my children, I used to give them a pep talk like a manager gives to his football team. And I used to say, whatever has happened, please do not Tell Puppy anything because she'll say, you see, Tony, I told you. Just say that everything is lovely. Right. Don't bring your problems to the table. You just say, everything is lovely. Right? Yeah. And so she distanced you from. But before, you said that you were close to your father when she first met you. Yes. And in one part of the book, you talk about yourself being an IT girl, the first it girl, which is too exciting for me to go to. Just ignore. So let's talk about you being an IT girl, Gail. I was one of the first IT Girls because obviously I had. You know, I love dancing. And, you know, I trained to dance, so I used to go to all the West End nightclubs and I used to do my. My moves. You know, I used to love it. I didn't really drink alcohol. I was happy. I used to have, you know, that peppermint cordial was so dull. It's a really touching thing. So I used to go a bit crazy on, you know, and that's. But also I used to feel at some stage that I couldn't stay in. I always had this urge to go out. Even now I have to get out the house or I feel that I can't breathe. But you had some nice experiences, didn't you, as an IT girl? And that's such a wonderful term, isn't it, for that period of time? I'm just sort of entering your world for the moment before your stepmother really took over and you were meeting some really exciting and interesting people. I did. I mean, I used to go to all the show business parties with my. With my father and Eric. We used to go to so many places, so many lovely restaurants. I remember going to a restaurant with my father. I forget the name. And he said, look, there's Elton John over there. Couldn't believe it. Yeah. So I used to go out, you know, I was a night owl, go out to the clubs. It was great. And because we used to live in Cockfosters, the black cabs didn't really want to give us a lift back because it was too long for them. They couldn't pick up a journey. So instead of getting a black cab, I used to go with my friend. We just used to go on to a bar. Sorry. Like a restaurant that had live music and we used to get the. The first morning train home. What fun. What fun. You also. You also mentioned Olivia Newton John. You said she was very kind to you. Yeah. When we lived in Hajj Common, Bruce Welch of the Shadows was my next door neighbor with Olivia Newton John and Olivia Newton John was so sweet and so lovely. She was very skinny and I've always had a bit of a weight issue and even though I was a teenager, I always remember she gave me these. Do you remember? They were trendy, those up to the knee. Black suede platform boots. Oh, fabulous. And even then I couldn't quite do them up. So what did you wear? Give us an idea of the outfits you used to wear with your black suede over the knee boots. Oh, I used. Do you have a mini skirt and things? Yeah, of course, I used to have a mini skirt. I used to have also what was very popular and Olivia Newton John wore as well. Used to get them in a pack and I don't know if you remember, they were the shorts and over knee socks. Yes, I remember the over knee socks. Yeah, lovely. Yeah. And when, when I used. Well, when I used to go to clubs, I used to have lovely like sequin dresses with splits. Oh, fantastic, fantastic. So you really actually played the part. You know the girl that was out on the town. How lovely. Because was this before she did Greece? So I presume she went to America and did Greece out there. This was sort of after, yeah. Because remember she did Greece and she gave my parents tickets to go to the premiere. Oh, wonderful. Not my parents, sorry, my mum, because my mum was with my dad and my mother couldn't go. So I went with my best friend who lived a few doors away from me. And I didn't realize it was like a red carpet event. And I wore this, I wore this dowdy dress with like white lace, like a granny dress. I didn't realize it was, you know, a really big event and we went to the after party. Yeah. And was it fun? It sounds great fun. Yeah, it was really fun. I just felt really awful wearing this gray and black dress you might have, I always remember in like a paisley design with a white lace collar. Yeah, I'm sure you stood. You felt you stood out, but you most probably didn't. This is what happens when you're a teenager. You think, you know, everything's exaggerated, isn't it? Oh, I look the worst and. But you're not necessarily that. So from that and from the world of you also becoming, you know, coming into your own and wanting to be in that world because there was a moment that you also. You were asked to help your father with finding clothes for some of the band, dressing them. That's right. I remember I was in his office in 80. His office was Native Music, 25 Street. I mean, that sort of tattooed on my brain. I had some great times there and obviously Eric worked there as well, so I used to love going there. And I remember one day he said, listen, gal, I've entered. There's a group, four people going in the Eurovision. I see. I still can't remember their name, but I believe it was two boys and two. Well, two men. Two. Two women. He said, listen, you had a wad of cash. He said, I want you to go and get outfits in this size. And I remember I went to Christopher's place and I got them all this gold leather outfit. They. They were all gold leather, but they were all different, you know, different styles. And my dad was really pleased with it because he said, you know, I was very trendy. Even my friends say, now for my age, I dress really well and I'm quite good at decor, you know, doing that and fashion. You're very fashionable, you look lovely. So. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And he was very pleased with you. Yeah, he was really pleased. And that's where my opinion counted. But it's like, you know, going back to the father daughter thing, it's like almost I felt like I was a rag doll abandoned. Because I do believe that once he met his second wife, slowly and slowly I was excluded. In fact, it came to a time, I was 18 and, you know, she'd sort of. She was staying there all the time and, you know, it's all about him and her. I mean, that's together in their dressing gowns, in the morning, kiss each other. And I felt, you know, I felt that I was. What's the word? Almost an outsider. Yeah. So I decided I'd have enough. I'd always wanted to go and live on a farm, etc. But I ended up going to Liverpool. I was only 18 and in a way, I'm sorry I did it because maybe she wouldn't have become his wife. On the other hand, for me, I experienced another culture, you know, and I had a great time. Yes. Is that when you went to Israel? Yes. I went there because I wanted to go on a farm. I thought someone said to me, you want to go and live on a farm? Why don't you go on a kibbutz? I thought, well, that's good. But it was really hard work. I mean, I remember in the mornings I used to work in the kitchen. That was my duty, cleaning out those great big pots and everything, and then going in the dining room and empty the, like they call it the trash can. But I used to go in the dining room and I used to see everyone and I used to sit down and eat with them. Oh yeah, but we're very famous for people going out there just to have a, a different lifestyle. But your background is Jewish, isn't it? My background is Jew, but I say that we Jewish, we're Jewish up to the point where we smoke salmon and bagels. Eric would tell you it's a food. Because Eric, I remember the last few times I saw him, he was always, in fact, can I tell you a story? Yeah, please. One of the very last times I saw him, he had been in hospital and he came out and I remember he phoned me up and he was really frustrated and he went, gal, he said, I've got nothing in my fridge. He said, and you know, he lived in South Woodford and I lived in Cockfosters and I don't drive. And he says, I want you to come over and get me some food, gal. He said, there's nothing here because, you know. So I said, okay, Eric. So I was lucky that I got my mother's partner to give me a lift. I went with my grandson and because of COVID those two unfortunately had to stay in the car. And I went to Eric's and Eric didn't want me to leave. And I said, I'm sorry, sorry, Eric. I said, but I've got, you know, I, I've, I've got my grandson and I, I've got Max in the car anyway. And I, I, I walked to the local Tesco's. He gave me a shopping list, so. And when I spoke to his sister Caroline about it, she said, but his brother bought him food. It's just that he was greedy and he ate it all up. So he went yesterday and bought him the food. Oh, that's so funny. But that was him. But one of the lines you say in your book, which are lots and many and moving, was I was so in awe of you to your daddy. I put you on a pedestal. But you used me as your weapon. I remember, yes. I remember I was, I was living in a bed. I couldn't be. I remember I moved out. I just didn't want to be at home with my mum because I think as well from a, from a little girl, my, my father used to tell me my mother was mad. And I remember him speaking to one of her cousins about my mum. So to hear that from a young child, it was like, daddy is right, my mother is mad. You know, she's mad, she's bad and everything. So sorry, I forgot the question. Yeah, that he used you as a weapon. That's right. Because I couldn't live with my mother anymore and I went to my first bedsit which was in Highgate Hill. So I remember he actually, I think I've still got the note, I kept the note and he was getting a divorce from my dad and he said, well, would I, would I come to the court and if need be, I'd be called on as a witness, I mean against my own mother. And my mother said to me one day, years and years later, she said, gail, I will forgive you, you're my daughter, but I will never forget. And I don't, but I don't think I really knew how, how terrible that was that my father wanted me to go up on the stand against the. My mum. And I don't think by me agreeing to do that because I just wanted to please my dad, whatever he told me to do, I would do that. Psychologically that's wrong as well, isn't it? Yeah. Because what was it about him? He was clearly talented. Just give us an indication, give us a description of the man who's your father. I know you show photographs of him in your book, but tell me who he was to you because he was talented, he was in the theater, he wrote the amazing songs. But tell me a little bit more how you saw him. I think I've got to be. I mean my father was really charismatic and you know, when it was just me and him and everything was right, he was a, to me he was a loving man, he was everything. But I think that I didn't love my father as Tony Hill of the father because obviously he'd walked out on me and then he sort of cast me aside for his second wife. But I think I also, I, I idolized him and I put him up on a pedestal. I mean he could no wrong and I think by him being famous, you know, and I think that's how I was so in awe of him too because really to do that after your daughter has had a life threatening accident and to leave your family because you've just won the Eurovision contest, that is not a nice man. He was a bit of an egomaniac as well. Self importance. I mean, I remember going with the children and he always used to go into a whole thing about. I only got where I did because of hard work. Whether that was to motivate us, I don't know. But it, it sounded very sort of me, me, me, you know. But also wasn't it because you were Sort of given a lot of distance that his wife just didn't allow you close to him after all, at the end, you know, sort of whenever you went there. So you were always struggling to get his attention. The thing is, I mean, the only way my father and I had a relationship is he never called me. The only time he'd ever call is to say, oh, he used to say, oh, you're coming to me so and so, date. But if I'd say, well, on that date, you know, like one of the kids had a birthday party, it was, well, you can't come and see us. You can't come and see me. It's like we had to snap to his tune. It didn't matter that I had a life. He didn't seem to respect that. You know, it's like you either come to me or you don't come to me. And do you think men are learning? Because that was a way men were. I mean, he. In your book, you said, when you died, I fell apart. I couldn't grieve. I'm still at the angry part, but everyone has told me because of how you and she had treated me, it's acceptable for me to feel that way. Do you still feel angry about it? Listen, it's been. I've been in a really bad place. When my father died, I couldn't grieve. Very depressed, I felt suicidal, I took pills. Do you know something now, it is what it is, Maria. It's like there's no point because me feeling angry, it's only going to disappoint, destroy me as a person. I mean, at the moment, you know, I'm. I'm just, you know, managing. It's a. Financially, things aren't wonderful, but they will be soon. And. But I'm. I'm managing, you know, I've got my kids. Which comes with trials and tribulations as well, of course. Especially, as you know, I've been a single parent to them. Yeah. So how many children? Give us an idea of your family life. I have three children. One of them is married. In fact, they came over last night and we ended up having like a poetry evening. Ah, fantastic. I was reading, reading some poetry and my. My daughter is always very. Is a bit critical. She went to art school. So, you know, I paint. I also did a painting for Stormzy. So I paint. And my daughter has always been a bit critical about my art. And then, you know, when I was reading out the poems, she actually said to her husband, do you know what? My mum is Such a, such a great poet. You really. She said, you really should start performing it and being out there, Mum, because you're one of a kind, you know. I think that's true. Do you want to give us before you read the poem because you wrote this last week we were talking about, just as we were getting to know each other, we discussed you writing a poem and you did write a poem, which I absolutely love and I'd love to hear that in the moment. So you've got three children, a daughter who's in the arts. Yeah, two girls and one boy. And I have my grandson who lives with me as well, so. But my oldest daughter doesn't live with me. She's. She's married. But you know what? Even if I had room, they could all live with me. No, I know you're that you're that sort of warm and welcoming mother and grandmother. Yeah, I mean yesterday when they were coming over because my son in law, he's a seed. I mean, I believe very firmly in multiculturalism anyway, and so I literally nearly all day I was making curry and dal and different dishes for him and he said to me, do you know what? It's really delicious. And I said, well, you know what? That's the biggest compliment. And when you were married, did you get married? Did you decide to marry or did you not marry when you put off marriage? You know, I've always thought that I wasn't successful in relationships and I couldn't have a relationship because in a way it was like with my, with my parents. Divorce. Like most people who have gone through divorce, love is painful. You see your parents and you see them arguing and the fights and the atmosphere and you think, well, even if I love someone, it's never going to end anyway. So basically if I was with someone in my mind, I just used to sort of push them away because I thought, well, this is too good to be true. I'm in love and it's not going to last. And this is how it affected me all my life with my relationships. But I even, I did manage to, to marry twice, but the, the guys were absolutely useless. And to be honest and frank, the only reason I married them was because I was pregnant. Right. And they did not help me emotionally in any way, shape or form. And I was basically left holding the babies twice. Three times. Twice. Twice. Twice. And also you weren't being given any financial help from your father and his wife? No. No. So your father didn't step in? No, not really. It was, it was really hard for Me. And he used to say, you've got a wonderful life, you know, and it's like, I. I used to go to. He. He lived in Westbourne Terrace before he lived in Westbourne Terrace Mews. He's now Westbourne Terrace. And it was like a different life. Sometimes I used to see him and I hardly had the money, you know, the fares to go there. And it was like a different world because where he lives, there's a hotel next to him, you know, it's quite a rich area. And then, you know, we'd go to. When we did, we would go to a restaurant and we could have whatever we liked off the menu, you know, and sometimes the bill would come to, like, £150 plus he'd give a £20 tip. And it's like, wow. I don't, you know, I just about live on that money for the whole week. Raising your children by yourself. And who did support you? Did you have any family support? I mean, my dad used to give me money sometimes, but then, you know, he used to say, well, you've got to pay. Used to insist I pay him back. My mum helped me a great deal. She used to help me a great deal as well. I don't know what I'd do. You know, it's very hard to raise children on your own. And I think that's, you know, particularly for a woman who's got to try to raise her children and it's very difficult to earn money and then, you know, make sure the children are growing up well and they're educated and they're looked after and behave well. There's so many things that can go wrong, as we know, with children, but they didn't. You, you know, you've raised three wonderful, wonderful children. I mean, they're all well grounded, I. From what you were saying. I remember one day, my oldest daughter, she was young, I was in bed and she was at the bottom of the bed and she was crying and she says, mummy, we're so poor. And I said, well, the reason we were poor is because she didn't have a laptop. But I didn't want her to have a laptop. At that time, she was my oldest child. So for her not having a laptop, she thought, well, we were really poor. Well, we weren't rich anyway. But I said to her, listen, darling, I said, if you've got a roof over your head, a parent, you know, two parents or one parent or somebody who loves you, food in your belly, a roof over your head, then you're rich. And I Think people need to be more grounded about this. And I think you've got to live your life with gratitude, you know, every day. Every day I do pray to God. I also chant and I think things could be worse, you know. So you say also that there's no one that can compare to you. You say as your father, but who is your ideal Prince Charming? Who is my ideal Prince Charming? Yeah. Who is the ideal man? Well, I. To be honest with you, Maria, I think I'm a bit old and I. But I'm still hoping that I'm going to meet him. I sort of thought I met him, but that. But only a part. He would have to be sexy, you know, he. When I said, you know, look good. Yeah, I. I like big guys, muscly. But he would also have to be attentive and he would have to understand what it's like to have a family. He, you know, not to feel, oh, you're, you know, you're giving your kids so much attention. I would. He would just have to come and he'd just fit in and he'd sort of get me in and. Do you know what I mean? Belong to your family as well. Yes. Because your family is so much part of you. Yeah, it is. And, you know, they've been. Sometimes when I felt down or suicidal, the only reason that's brought me back to reality is because I'm a mother and they're my kids and they need me. Well, especially when they're younger. And that's what's always pulled me back from that dark, dark sort of state. And it's. Well, you know, I've got these kids and I've got to, you know, I've got to be an example for them. And I know you are, which we're going to talk about, but so was your feelings of, you know, sort of wanting to leave this world, you know, your suicidal feelings, was that a sort of punishment for yourself? Or did you just want to get out? Had you had enough? You know, sort of of the world itself, to be honest. I just felt that I was. I was in water and I. I just. I was drowning, you know, especially when I was grieving for my dad and also when I was loving him from afar occasionally. I used to have these very. Which. A lot of people have these very dark moments. And also financially and. And the pressure on being a single mum, I just thought, I can't. I used to cry and I think I just can't handle it. There was nowhere to turn and I just thought that maybe If I wasn't here, then it would, you know, I wouldn't have all these problems. Yeah, no, that's. That's understandable. And I do think that, yeah, obviously death in itself is very painful death of a father. And especially. Did you manage to resolve your relationship with your father? You saw him before he died? Before he died, I mean. And I must just say, you know, I still had to tell her when I was coming or if I was coming with one of my children. But I remember the very last time I saw him. I mean, I think that given him a tablet or something, I don't know, because he. He was dying. And I remember I was sort of. There was actually no one there for one of the first times. None of the show business friends, no one in the room. There was. There was like, the carer. And I sort of looked at him at the bottom of my bed and I noticed that his. His mouth drooped and I'd never noticed that before. And he had, like, a napkin on the side of him. And I actually went up to the front of his bed and I felt his head and I stroked his head, which is. I could never have done that before because he'd have thought I was mad. He was a very demonstrative and loving person, though, I must just say. He used to kiss and cuddle people. You know, his family were all like that. But I could never have just touched his face. So I touched his face and he was, like, down there, and I was high. And I just said to him, I said, dad, I could never, ever forgive you for only seeing me and the children you know, once every month, once every six weeks. And I just felt, you know, so glad. I don't know if he heard, but I had to tell him because, you know, that was one of the reasons I wrote these letters because there was things that I just couldn't talk about about with him. I mean, obviously, like after the accident. I mean, my claustrophobia. I have terrible claustrophobia. And that's, I believe, from the accident, from being tied up on the chair. Of course. Of course. And he used to say to me, oh, well, when you gonna get over your fear? And it's like, you know, I'm not crazy, dad. It's. You know, I never really had help. I mean, after the accident, I didn't have counseling or anything. It wasn't till a few years later that he sent me to a friend of his that was a psychiatrist and another one in Highgate. And he was really. I just didn't like Him. And in the end, because I was always on diet, I said, could you help me with my weight, please? And I remember he gave me this tape and he said, I want you to lie on the bed and you listen to the tape. And the first time I did, I laid on the bed and I listened to the tape and, you know, I went straight downstairs into the biscuit tin. So that worked. Yeah. But you've reconciled. You're very close to your mother. I. I'm close, yes. Because she lives very clear. Yeah, she lives a few doors away from me. Ah. You know, so I'm always going in to see her, but, you know, she has. Has a wonderful partner who looks after her, you know, is younger than her. In fact, my mother's had more luck than me. She's got a younger guy. Well, you never know, Gail, how the wheels of forging will turn. And it's time they turn for you, and I'm sure they will. But let's move on to. You are now an artist and you've painted Stormzy. And you've met Stormzy. No, I didn't meet him. I've been called. I was called. What happened was my paintings were displayed at the Hugh Corbett Centre in Islington. Now around it is all council estates. Anyway, I did a painting of Stormzy amongst other paintings which were displayed. Anyway, a few months later I was told would I come down and sign the painting from Stormzy because his producer wants to buy it because apparently they'd gone to. There was a cafe there next to door to the community center, the Hugh Corbett community Center. And they were alerted to my painting. Anyway, I. I said to them, I said, well, you mean this Wednesday? They said, yes. I said, I'm sorry. I said, I can't make it because I've got a doctor's appointment. And I put the phone down and I thought, you stupid girl. This is. This is Stormzy. You know, I'm so saying, oh, I've got a doctor's appointment I'm not going to sign. And I quickly phoned them back. I said, you know what? I said, forget about the doctor's appointment. I said, I'm coming to sign the portrait. And. And I did, but I didn't see him. But the producer was there because they were filming, you know, blinded by your grace. They were filming. Actually, sorry, it was the director because I was told that the producer wanted. So the producer wanted to. He loved your work. Yeah, he wanted. He. He wanted to buy it for Stromsey as an inventor today because they were Filming in a council estate there. Blinded by your grace, the producer said, wanted to talk to me, would I like to be in the video and handing, you know, the painting Stormzy. But that never happened because the director had different ideas, which is a shame. Yeah, well, that maybe he'll listen to this and maybe he'll organise to meet you. But you were called Grime Grand. Yes, because I was advertised in. I was told in a paper about what happened and Stormzy has my painting and that I'd only been painting for a year or so because I was doing arts and crafts with my grandson and he had all these canvases and I decided to do these pictures and at first it was collages with tissue papers. Then I'd do a face and I colored it in and then he had the paint and I started painting the face. And that's how I did my first painting. In fact, I was really shocked. So I started. At first, if you look at all my earlier paintings, I don't know why, but I did them of like, grime artists. So, Gail, we are about to tie up, but before we do, I want you to read or mention your. Or just go through your poem, if you would, because I don't want to lose that. Now, this is what you wrote very quickly because we spoke last week and within almost a day or two you'd written a wonderful poem. Can you read it now? Right. It's very, you know, it's a small poem. It's because you said, would I write a poem? Who am I? Yeah. So, yeah, quickly went to work on it and I just put as quickly as you can. That would be lovely. I am a woman that carries around that traumatized child in me. The one who experienced. Experienced a near fatality. Trapped in my body, Shackled to the bed Shouting out in silence Comforted by thoughts in my head I fought back with words they captured my imagination Food for my soul when life took its toll I am a mother, grandmother, single parent, divorcee I gave all my love to my children with no man to support me But I can paint rainbows after the storm I see beauty all around me in art form I am a survivor I have to believe Chanting my mantra Adjusting my crown Nothing for no one will ever bring me down and Gail. What? Amazing. I can't believe. And that's the poem your daughter was talking about? Yes, and my other ones that I've written and that is fantastic. And your book is actually on sale. No more kisses for me I On Amazon. Yes, you can get it online at Amazon and Waterstones and Mooney and Lambert. Fantastic. Gail Hiller, thank you so much for spending time here on your Mind Matters. A wonderful interview and wonderful to get to know you.