Your Mind Matters – Jay Kamiraz, Mr. Fabulous

In 1897, Oscar Wilde was incarcerated in cell number C.3.3 on the third tier of Reading Gaol because he had been found guilty of gross indecency. His prison experience moved him to put pen to paper, expressing the deeply emotional words of his fate: 'The love that dare not speak its name.' He wrote his profoundly soul-bearing work 'De Profundis' 'From the Depths,' written to his love, who we know as his blonde-haired, blue-eyed boyfriend Bosie, or Lord Alfred Douglas. It is a remarkable work of literature in which Oscar Wilde addresses the pain of punishment for living a true life. He wrote these words: 'When first I was put into prison, some people told me to try and forget who I was. It is only by realizing what I am that I have found comfort of any kind.' It would mean that I would be haunted by an intolerable sense of disgrace, and that those things that are meant for me as much as for anybody else—the beauty of the sun and moon, the pageant of the seasons, the music of the daybreak and the silence of the nights—would all be tainted for me and lose their healing power and their power of communicating joy. To regret one's own experience is to arrest one's own development. To deny one's own experiences is to put a lie into the lips of one's own life. It is no less than a denial of the soul. But that is over a century ago. Why is this still relevant and part of our discussion today? We are still, as a global society, wrestling to accept everyone's differences. It is during that struggle that we see the dark side of human nature emerge. But you may say it's not Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia, by whom Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, as one of the most celebrated writers of the 20th century, wrote about his incarceration in a Siberian prison labor camp for speaking his political truth. He tells us, "If it were all so simple, if only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them." But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being, and who is willing to destroy his own heart? I am Dr. Maria Kempinska, a psychotherapist and businesswoman, and this is Your Mind Matters. Who judges our behavior? Do we all have evil within, and how do we control that intention and stop it turning into a behavior? As we know, when there is an action, there is always someone who receives the effect of that action. The evil action will contaminate the soul. But what is the soul of a person? The person who acts in malice, who harms another, who wields their power against the other, what is the soul of that person and any person? It is the material aspect of the essence of a human being, that which confers individuality and humanity. According to Plato, there are three parts of the soul. He identified them as the rational, the spirited, and the appetitive. The rational is driven by the mind and our conscious awareness. It is represented in Plato's metaphor by the charioteer who guides us. This is the part that thinks, analyzes, looks ahead, rationally weighs options, and tries to judge what is best and true for us. The spirited is not to be confused with the spiritual and embodies emotion, passion, and being hot-blooded. This is the part that is angered by injustice and cruelty. The appetitive is the appetite for pleasure, security, comfort, satisfaction, sex, food, safety, and notably Plato believed the appetite for money. But I will also add the appetite for power. Plato, along with his followers C.G. Jung and Freud, believed that the soul was the essence of our society. Soul— Jung called that part of the psyche which contains society's soul the collective unconscious. What happens when a wrong is done to a person, any person, and what if that wrongdoer is not punished? It is only the one who is on the receiving end of the wrongdoing that is forever punished. The shame and internal bruising of that act lingers within the soul of the victim. I believe it lingers forever, and it resonates on the soul of society. The essence of life, and my work as a psychotherapist, is to review, remember, and transform within clients and society that part of every human, the soul, which has, as Freud stated, that psychoanalysis is a part of psychology which is dedicated to the science of the soul. Today I'm delighted to say my guest is Jay Kesmiraz, and his stage name is Mr. Fabulous, and believe me, he truly lives up to his name. Please welcome— I would like to welcome you, Jay, and let's you know, discuss these themes which are so profound and almost the antithesis of your name. But as we go deeper into your background— and we'll talk first of all about your background— we will find why this theme has come up today. So welcome, Jay, and thanks for joining me. Thank you, Miriam. Thank you for having me. So can you give me just a little bit of an insight into your background? So, uh, going Let's just go straight into the deep end. At the age of 17, I was— I had a music career already pathed out for me, and everything was looking rosy and beautiful and bright. But sadly, some people took homage to it, and they didn't like the fact that I was living my truth and I was living my creativity, and I was I was attacked, brutally attacked by 7 men, which left me in hospital fighting for my life. I was pronounced dead on the hospital surgical bed, but I was revived, brought back to life, and I had to live with a few little conditions for a long time. And that was just because of me being who I wanted to be and living my truth as a creative and as a musician. People to come after. It was also an unprovoked homophobic attack as well. But what people forget is at that young age, I was still discovering my sexuality. I didn't yet, you know, know what my sexuality was, but other people had already made up their mind. So as they saw you— so if I can, because people can't see you, Jay, if I can say that you are a very beautiful man and you have this light— because obviously we've met— and you have this light of being around you, you know, sort of this joy, the joie de vivre, and people gravitate towards you. And I'm sure at the age of 17 that was the same for you. So there you were, a 17-year-old walking through, walking home, and brutally you were attacked by other men. That must have been such a shock to your system, unexpected. Not that you were doing anything, as you say, it's not as though you were in the middle of doing something. You were just who you were, and just by being who you are, people saw you and attacked you. Do you know— do you know anything further about the people who attacked you? Did you find out? Yes, I did find out. However, you know, you, you learn, you learn this thing called forgiveness, and And that's something that a lot of people find hard to understand is why did I not take it any further? Partly also because I wanted to protect my family. Because it was done by certain members in the community. And secondly, I was brought up to forgive. I was brought up to understand. And some people think, well, how can you forgive people? For doing such, such a horrific act on you. But it's just, it took time, but I had to forgive. It was the only way that I could let go and I could find healing, is by forgiving that situation and by forgiving those people. And funny enough, you know, I did, I have, you know, since the attack come face to face with one of my attackers who actually did apologize to me. Oh wow. So that was kind of a, kind of a big, big deal, you know. And, uh, and, you know, my, my thing, my thing to them was I, I, I took him to a side, and they're married and they have children, and I said, you know, I would like you to look at your child, and I want you to remember what you did to me, and would you ever want that ever to happen to one of yours? And, you know, he actually did. He actually broke down. And, and I left it there, um, because, you know, uh, the world has a way of teaching people what they've done wrong in their life. It has a way of coming around, you see. It does, it does. I, I agree with you, and I know that what you did was so profound, Jay, but there was that period of time, and I'm so, you know, in awe of the fact that you could speak to this man. And I'm not advocating punishment that you should punish anybody because you are the person that's in the middle of this. You're the one that's receiving the action. But between that moment of receiving the action and the moment of forgiveness, you went through a horrendous— I don't want to minimize the horrendous time you went through. Not only just the horrendous time you went through, but how to pick yourself up. The self-talk you must have had. You know, the understanding of what the hell has gone on here. And did you ever— and I'm going to ask this because, um, it's something that most people would feel— did you ever feel, gosh, I would like to have some revenge? Or, you know, how could I protect myself better? Or did you blame yourself? If only I hadn't done this or hadn't done that. I, I, I, I, I, I never wished revenge on anyone or anything like that. However, when a situation like that happens, it does make you question yourself. It makes you question your identity and makes you wonder, you know, have I done something wrong for just being myself? You know, you're young, you don't realize, you don't understand why these 7 men decided to beat you to the point, you know, nearly lost your life, and you ask all these questions. And I'm not gonna lie, you know, I was full of life, I was flamboyant, I was happy, you know, I just wanted to live life. I didn't, you know, I didn't see problems, I just saw opportunities, and I just wanted to grab every opportunity and learn and grow. And the next thing you do is you question why would anybody want to take that away from you and put you at a point where you feel worthless. You feel that you, you have no worth, you have no value. They strip you away of all of that flamboyancy, all of that, all those things that made you who you are. And probably, you know, you would have grown on to do lots more with it, obviously, which I did later on. Um, you, you question, you question everything. And I'm not gonna lie, a few times, um, it took me to a few dark places, you know. At some points, you, you, you wanted to end your life because You just felt like nobody understood you, and probably the way you should be treated because this is the identity that you relate to. And then you watch, you see the hatred of other people and the way a lot of people, say for example, see homosexuality and they see it as being wrong. And you start questioning and saying, you know, why me? You know, but gradually, like you say, through self-healing, you, you, you learn that to accept yourself. You learn that things happen for a reason, and some people, you know, find it hard to deal with. Others end up becoming leaders who end up going to inspire other people. And I, I just had this resilience where I, you know, the thing about— I always even though I felt like I had— I felt a bit worthless and I felt like I was in a dark, dark place, I still got up and I still fought, I still soldiered on because I was not going to let these feelings, let these ideologies conquer my head as such. I wanted to eradicate them and so I took the conscious decision to leave East London I, I left the community that I believe didn't love me, that didn't understand me, and no one— and I went out to the big worldwide world out there at the age of 17, did not know what to expect, but I took that leap because, uh, I wanted to see what else was out there in the world. And yes, I'm not gonna lie, I wanted the world to love me because I wasn't being loved by the very people that I grew up in and the very community that I grew up in. And that must have been devastating. And betrayal. Did you feel betrayed? Big time. Absolutely. I, I felt betrayed by the very people that love me. I felt betrayed by my very own community, you know. I thought I was doing everything right, and, um, and just for having a feeling, an unconditional feeling, you know, a feeling that was never forced on me, you know. Those, those feelings of being, you know, having— being attracted to a man, for example. Those feelings of being flamboyant and being colorful and being full of vibrancy, all those things you think is, you know, unconditional, you think that are right and, you know, makes you a good person, you start to realize that other people see it as— they condemn you for it, they put you down for it, they belittle you, they make you feel so small. And I did not want to feel small, I did not want to feel belittled, I did not want anyone to take away my worth and make me feel the way I did. So I had to leave. I had to go out there. And had I not have left, God knows if I'd be here talking to you. But I had to take that big leap of faith. And at that young age, you know, it's like, you know, I didn't know what to expect. But I took that leap. And I have no regrets for making that decision because that decision took me to a place where I educated myself. I learned a lot. I built up resilience. I built up strength. And, um, yeah, I'm very— I'm happy for— I'm humbled. Well, you're humble because you managed to do it, but I think at that time it must have been quite terrifying. It was terrifying. It was, it was, it was a horrible experience. Then you leave, then you leave, you have, you know, you have nowhere to live and you try, you know, trying to work out what you've got to do. Thank God some people came to help me out. And you know, you start, you start seeing, um, you know, it restores your faith in people. There are some nice people out there, um, but you know, but gradually, even, even amongst that, you know, when, while, while you're growing, when you're leaving, you still have that sense where you still feel that, that you don't belong. You still feel like that this is the way that you should be treated, you know. Yeah. And you fall into a trap where there are people that pick up on those energies and then take advantage of you. And, and don't get me wrong, Maria, I've had my fair share of people who've taken advantage of, of seeing me at the most, at my most weakest. Yeah, I know, Joe, I know, I know. I— and people are like that. It becomes very animal-like. It's the beast that takes over. They come and they're predatory because they sense your vulnerability. But that's the trouble with people who are spiritual like you spiritual and gifted, you know, you're an artist, we'll come on to that, but also that you've been made vulnerable, you've been betrayed, you've been humiliated, you've got shame, you now need to find somewhere to anchor yourself away from your own community and people see that and they become predators. They are the vultures. That's correct, yeah. So you didn't step from one area and go, "I'm leaving that behind, this is easy." That again was hard for you. It was hard because, you know, at the same time when you walk away from the situation, you know, I, I still loved, you know, the, my family, and I wanted to, you know, you know, go back and see them. It was tough, you know. I wanted them to love me, and gradually it took a long time, and, um, and they do. And I'm grateful for my resilience. I'm grateful for the fact that I never let go of that hope. And I think the word hope is something that's carried me through because— and also I've always been an optimist as well in the sense where I always said there will be a day that they will understand, or in small doses, and they will come to a point where they can accept me for who I am and let me be. And, uh, and that's gradually— and, and that gradually— and that gradually happened, you know. So during those times, how did you protect yourself, both physically, mentally, and actually, you know? Who— how— what jobs did you do? How— where did you live? How did you make sure that you didn't encounter that experience again? Well, I think I think you continue to grow as a person. You're always going to be put in front of challenges and situations. I mean, I just, I mean, at that young age when I left and when I moved to North London to set up my life and so, you know, I had to get myself a job and, you know, and work and, you know, and then by getting the job you start building your confidence around how to be with people, how to understand people, trying to understand why people do the things they do. Thankfully, I knew the signs of what bullies were like, what people who just enjoyed the power of making you feel bad. I saw those signs and I picked up on those, and I tried very hard to protect myself from that. At the same time, I also stood up for myself. I learned that there are ways of standing up for yourself, not in the sense of fighting with anybody, not with anger. I stood up for myself with goodness. I tried to make people understand that what they were doing was wrong. And even though they came back at me with like, you know, ammunition, you know, like almost like gun pellets like hitting you, I told them, I said, listen, I've been through enough in my life that I'm not going to let 'Your words and your sticks and stones hurt me. I will speak my mind.' And I think those are the things, I think having that resilience and being able to just stand up for yourself has helped me through in life. Where did you get that ability from? I think that's what— once after the attack, you know, you lose all confidence, and but then when you rebuild that confidence you start to realize that you've been given another chance, or maybe you've been given another chance to, you know, to understand, or maybe you are meant to go out there and inspire others. I thought to myself, there is a reason why I'm alive, there is a reason why I have overcome this big hurdle, you know, that I didn't die, that I, you know, and there is a reason why I have this resilience to to not feel defeated. You know, once knocked, I'll never be knocked again. I had that attitude where, you know what, I will keep going through different doors, and if they keep getting shut on me, I will keep walking until one door opens for me. And it did. And that's the resilience, that's the perseverance that I've always had and that I've always kept with me. I said, I don't want to give up. I never— like I said, Marie, I never had any role models. People that I looked up to. So after the attack, you know, I thought, right, it's my, it's my calling to, to go out there, maybe educate people, maybe be a role model that I never had. There was no South Asian role model who are like me, so maybe it was my calling to go out there. Some people laughed at me because I wanted to be a role model, but look at me now, I am a role model. So Jay, can you just go into your heritage, your background, so that people who are listening can get an understanding of who you are, where you come from. My background is Anglo-Indian, but I was brought up in a Muslim family. My family weren't Muslim to begin with, but however, you know, once they moved to the East End, they became very religious, and that's the life that they chose, and that's the life that they tried to, you know, get their children to live, and And I was, I was, I was practicing. However, what happened obviously made me lose faith in, in my religion, made me lose faith in my community. And understandably, um, you know, I, I love them. I, I, I have no issues or qualms with any religion whatsoever, but I— that, you know, the faith failed me. Um, that's why I left, and, um, I seek other, other other forms of salvation. I mean, don't get me wrong, I went to the church and I prayed for— I, I thought I was a Christian for a while. Um, um, then I, I tried all sorts of different things until I came to the point of where I started to chant and Buddhism came into my life. And, uh, and this is where I've, I've found the most, the most happiness, the most peace. And I'm, I'm so happy for that, for that journey that I've been on and, um, and where I've where I've come to, because I've learned so much and I'm still learning so much, and they, you know, and I've made some wonderful friends along the process. So great. Jay, you were on your bed, and as you say, you almost died. So that was such a severe beating you took. Did you, do you recall laying there and thinking, this is not going to get me down? What were the words that you had? You know, how did you actually make sure that you got out of that bed, that that beating didn't cripple you for life, that you got through that? How did you do that? What did you sense? Did you get a spiritual understanding? You know, did you get an out-of-body experience? Did you see the other side? It was— I wouldn't say I saw the other side. It was, it was more when you, you know You wake up and then obviously because of the operation, because it was so severe, I had, you know, I was bedbound for a while. I had to learn how to walk again. And I think the thing that got me through was also humor. I don't know why, but I just kept making fun of everything and seeing the funny side. Maybe that was just a mask to cover the real pain that I was going through. And then one day I remember something one of my teachers from secondary school and, you know, her name is Miss Simon and I will always remember this and I actually remember this and it resonated with me one day at the hospital and she said, Jay, never ever feel like you are a victim of what happens to you or your past. You are, you are your own master, and you have to go on to create, you know, create things. And, and I thought to myself, well, I'm not going to be a victim of what's happened. I'm, I'm going to learn how to be a master of myself, and I, I'm, I'm got— and I'm going to get through this. But do you, you know, sort of— I had, uh, an attack in my home And a couple of days after the attack, you know, somebody forced the door in my face, stormed in, blah blah blah, nothing like yours. But, and yeah, I'm very resilient, I've had all sorts of things, you know, sort of, but attacks are quite fierce because they attack you physically. And a couple of days after the attack, 2 or 3 days, I found myself having a panic attack. But also, you know, that PTSD that triggers you physically, physiologically, where suddenly if somebody rang the doorbell, I would run upstairs, and then I had to talk myself out of it. Do you get any of those reminders physically? Yeah, I've had those experiences where, you know, certain things remind you of things that's happened. And, um, but, but I think, um, when you— when somebody goes through traumatic experience, they learn how to channel things and they learn how to acquire a sense of strength. Not everyone, you know, some people find it very difficult to cope and they can't cope. I just, maybe it's from, maybe it does come from my mother's side because my mother is a very resilient, a very strong woman, you know, who loves her children to pieces and she'll do anything for children. And, um, maybe that's, you know, sometimes I look in the mirror, I do think, and my partner David keeps telling me all the time that you're turning into your mother. So tell us, so how many brothers and sisters do you have? What is your family setup? Yeah, I come from a family of 7 and I am the first, second, and the fourth, um, I'm the fourth, um, in the, in the family. And then I've got, and then I've got younger sisters, um, and that's the other thing, Maria, um, you know, um, and thank you for bringing up the family, uh, what makes, what makes a person strong, what makes a person resilient, what makes a person determined was, um, and that moment where you say to yourself, you know, what was that moment that changed you, what was the moment It was, it was, you know, my younger sisters. When I looked at my younger sisters, I thought to myself, I don't want my younger sisters to grow up in a world of hostility. I don't want my younger sisters to have those type of ideologies, those type of thoughts and beliefs. And so I said, you know, I want to be the one to help somehow unconditionally be there for them as a brother and educate them and make them understand that, you know, that's not right, you know. And the most amazing thing is that, you know, all my sisters, um, they all work in a caring profession, you know. They've gone on to, um, helping others, being there for others. And it's funny, not long ago I had a conversation with my sister, um, you You know, one of my sisters has gone on to become a cognitive therapist and works with young children who've gone through trauma. And, you know, and the funny thing is she always says, you know, sometimes it's a trauma, you know, that always leads on to your adult life. And if you've not dealt with that trauma, you know, it's amazing, you know, when I— here's me looking at my younger sister, it's like, oh my gosh, this is my baby little sister telling me. Yes. I'm so proud that, and she said, actually, it's because of you, she said, Jay, because of you, because of what you went through, I went on to learn more. I wanted to understand people. I wanted to know what goes on in people's heads and what goes on in people's conscience. And she, you know, and that made me think like, well, that probably was the reason why I always stayed around, because I wanted to make sure that my— I call them my girls, um, gonna grow up to be wonderful women, strong women, and always there for others, you know. And, you know, I've got my other sister who, um, she works in the school as a school teacher, and she looks after young children as well. And so does my other sister. They all have this caring, nurturing side, and I, you know, feel that because of my experiences, they saw what happened, and, you know, um, and they saw how I've, I've come out the other side, that they wanted to go out there and, you know, give back and be there for people and then protect people, because, um, they did, they did not want that to happen to anybody else. I don't know if that makes sense, Miriam. It totally makes sense, Jay. It totally makes sense because you've inspired, as you said, You know, you're leading your life because it's very difficult to go back to that moment, the moment of that terrible, terrible place you were in. I can't— most of us have never experienced that. It is a war scenario. You know, my parents were in the war, my mother was in front of the firing squad, and, you know, my uncles were beaten up and murdered. I— but you were there and you were meant to be in the place of safety, but you felt that. But your sister have been inspired. How did you control your anger? How do I control my anger? Well, in what sense, Mira? Well, you know, instead of being angry with the world, shouting and screaming— and lots of people do, they come out of these situations and the post-traumatic stress— what they— in a war scenario, they used to have what they called shell shock. And a lot of people that were shell shocked would come out angry, devastated, and firing and feisty with everybody. With me, I, I, it's not anger. I try to understand it. Oh wow. Try to understand why people are the way people are. It's very funny you mentioned this, Mira, because a very good friend of mine called Miss B Constable, and so she's from the Thai community, and I've built a phenomenal relationship with my friends from the Thai community who are gave me a couple of books actually during my film premiere, and she said, whenever you have a situation one day, whenever you want to, just open up any page and there'll be something for you to read. Now this is quite bizarre because we are talking about these things and this verse came up, and if I can read it to you. Please, please. And it says 'One who repays an angry person with anger, thereby makes things worse for themselves. Not repaying an angry person with anger, one wins the battle hard to win. One practices for the welfare of both one's own and the others. When knowing that the other is angry, one mindfully maintains one's peace.' And that is what— that's my answer to that question, because you're What happened to you, and this is very quantum, this is the metaphysics of life, the psychology that affects us all, the collective unconscious, that what happens to you in some way affects the whole world. And how you respond to that, you've got to be strong because you've got to survive, but also not to show your anger, to be intelligent, to be able to be more than resilient. There is something so profoundly, you know, it is, it's so strong, so courageous to actually understand that to fight anger with anger is the wrong thing to do, but to also stand up to it with that strength, that mountain strength that you know you're not going to be shaken because your true belief is that you will fight this in a different way. It is almost spiritual, like the spiritual warrior, you know. And people don't know this, that there are various monks in various sects of, uh, other religions, particularly in the East, that were warrior monks that fought for the spiritual righteousness. And the air of righteousness has to be fought for. But as you say, it doesn't have to be through anger. It can be through that steely boldness, understanding that this is who you are, that strength, that courage. Also, I will speak my words, but also through kindness. Exactly, exactly. By, you know, uh, you know, once I was told, you know, sometimes, you know, people, people are angry and, um, might snap at you, and there might be situations that are horrible to you and stuff. And, and, you know, luckily when I— luckily when I was young, my mom told me, you know, she She said, sometimes you just have to sit back and say to yourself, you know, what is that person going through something? It could be that, that, you know, they're probably not nasty people at all, but that particular day they decided to pick on you, but they might be going through something in their own lives that they need to just unleash their anger out onto the world or someone. And I've always kept that with me, you know, I try to understand if someone's being horrible, whether they going through their own grief, their own, you know, their own self-doubt and stuff. And I try to be as calm as possible, you know, and that took a while. I'm not gonna lie, it took a while for me to get to that stage because there have been times where I have, where, you know, just like everybody else, I have been irrational and those irrational thoughts have not been good ones. And I learned to acquire that knowledge of understanding people, being kind to people, being gracious to people, being humble, and living your life with a bit of humility in your heart goes a long way. Because at the end of the day, what tends to happen is people that are either nasty or malice or have an agenda with you will have— at the end, can't help but they end up liking you. And then it's their guilt. It's in their conscious that they start to realize that I'm treating this person badly. Yeah. And that's that they got to deal with. I always say, you know, I'm going to live, live my truth. I'm always going to be me. I'm never— I'm not going to change anybody. If people want to conflict with me because I'm, I want to— I'm living who I live, I'm living who I want to be, then, then there's an issue there, an underlying problem or issue with them, and that's something that they need to deal with. I will always maintain and remain gracious. And it's funny how the world turns around because there's a lot of people in the past that were horrible nasty, that, uh, that have grown as well. And, um, and I think they've learned, and a lot of them are better people now. And, you know, because of your response, it's helped them. But there are times when society must step in and stop them, 100%. And I totally agree. Yeah, there are those, there are, there are those that are, you know, I, you know, the hate crime needs to stop, the attacks on all identities, on all religions. That hate needs to stop. And yes, you're absolutely right, that's where we need to, you know, inject some strong ground rules and need to protect each other. I totally agree with you there. And is there a part of your life that haunts you? Is there a part of my life that haunts me? The attack will always haunt me. It will always— it's something that, you know, sometimes— I mean, I find it a lot easier to talk about these days to everyone. There are times when, actually, especially during the filming, Mira, when I filmed my— you know, it's a short story about my life which was recently screened at Leicester Square. And it is called Mr Fabulous. It's called Mr Fabulous: Behind the Glitter Wall. And what people don't a small little synopsis of the whole show. People build perceived assumptions about what they see. They see a glamorous man wearing makeup who's not afraid to wear dresses and who's living a flamboyant, fabulous life on red carpets and what have you. They judge you straight away by the COVID but what they don't realize is if you get to know the substance of the story behind a person, then you start to understand that person. So Behind the Glitter Ball was all about getting people to understand who is behind Mr. Fabulous. And behind Mr. Fabulous is a young, you know, I will always be young, so I'll always call myself young, a young man called Jay, you know, who went through different stages in his life, who now, all he and all I want to do is, you know, help inspire others and I just want to be a voice of visibility because right now there is so much in the world that's happening and we just, we need more people that are visible, that are promoting kindness, that are promoting humility and goodness. That is what we need out there and the more of us that there is out there, the more I feel like the world will slowly but surely become somewhat a better place. And in your, um, there's a couple of things here that your role in life— once you recognized that you have— there's nobody else like you, that you— there is no model, so you have to be the model. Once you realize this is your role in life, this is your mission, if you like, this is the mission of your life should you choose to accept it, there must have been that point where you say, well, there's nobody else out there, am I prepared to do this, take on this mission and run with it. Do you remember that moment? I do actually remember that moment because, um, while obviously, um, we touched on music— well, you touched on music very early on in my, on my introduction. So music has always been a massive part of my life. And, um, and, um, as a choir director, there came a point where I started to see that there were certain members who wanted, who felt that they can do it better and they wanted to do it more and, you know, wanted the business model as such. And I sat back and I just thought, do you know what? I'm going to let you have the business model. Yeah, off you go. I'm going to teach you. That's what I say, off you go. I'm going to teach you every everything that you need to know from the beginning to the end and everything in which I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you, let you know, but the one thing that's always going to be missing from that formula that works is me. Exactly. And that was, and, and, and you know what, Mary, this, this is, I've always kept that in me, you know. I'm a brand and people are, are, are buying into who I am. I will happily share all my philosophies in life and how to be and what to do, but I always say to the person, it's you that— it's you as a person or you as an entity that people are going to be buying into. And what— and so, you know, it, you know, it, it doesn't matter. And the world, the world is everyone's oyster. I don't believe in such a thing as competition. Um, I believe that there is room for everybody because everybody will do it differently and they will make it work for themselves. And that was that pinnacle moment, um, where I, where I realized that, you know, um, it's, it's okay, it's okay to let go. It's all, it's all right, you know, that I'm, I'm going to be okay. Then after, you know, after 15 years of running choirs, I decided to, to let go of that, and I decided I'm going to do Mr. Fabulous. I'm, I'm going to, um, pack my corporate suits and my short back and sides, and I'm going to take that leap of faith like I did once before, you know, I'm going to take that leap of faith and I'm going to rebrand myself, acquire all the knowledges and everything that I've learned in the past and create Mr Fabulous. I thought, I thought it's a bit cheesy, the name Mr Fabulous, but then everybody calls me that. Traditionally, when I used to go, when I started going to red carpets, this is prior to the name being, you know, discovered, everyone said, "You're Mr. Fabulous, you look fabulous, you look fabulous," and I'm like, "You know what, I'm going to call myself Mr. Fabulous, and why not?" And I'm grateful that people in the industry don't see it as cheesy, they see it as as a good thing, they see as a, as a ray of hope, um, and, and that's, you know, and as, as some form of inspiration, motivation. And that's something that I, I just always want, always want to do and always want to keep. And it's interesting because you have this— you are a multifaceted, talented man, and, uh, as I say, you look fabulous as well, and you wear the clothes so well and the makeup and the whole design. Anybody listening, please, what website should they go on just to see you, by the way? Let's, let's get that out there. On Instagram, I'm Mr Fabulous Official, and then my website is mrfabulousofficial.com. Great, because once they see you, they will understand why the name has been given to you and stuck with you. I'm just being, uh, myself. I'm, I'm very androgynous, and, uh, you know, I'm a queer gay man and I'm proud. Yeah, and it's taken me a long time to come to the point of, do you know what, you know, I have some wonderful, wonderful circles of friends around me that love me. I don't need— you know, there was a time where I expected the whole world to love me, and I, and I know why I felt like that. It's because of the, because of the pain and the attack that I went through, and I felt so low. You went out, and I went out there expecting the world to love me, but then you start realizing that you don't need validation from the world. All you need is a very small group of friends that will give you the assurance that you always need. And that is something that I'm so eternally grateful for. And it's that small group of friends that are with you always. And I know your partner David is always there. But coming back, you did that great TV program where you were fabulous. And you, you— let's not, uh, let's talk about your music. And how do you express, and do you express your pains through music? And if so, which song would you say expresses you mostly, or is there a group of songs that do that? There is one song that I, I sung, um, during my show, um, that was just before, um, just before lockdown. Bonnie Raitt sang a song called I Can't Make You Love Me. Oh, that's an amazing song. And, and it made it in, in In my case, it's basically telling the world, you know, or people, certain people who just judge Mr. Fabulous for who, in the first instance, without getting to know me, you know, I can't expect you guys to understand me, I can't expect you guys to love me, but I'm just going to just be me, you know, and one day you'll understand me, one day you'll accept except me. Um, you know, my, you know, my muses are people like Prince, Usher, James, Tina Turner was one of my biggest inspiration, and I love her to pieces. Her resilience, what she went through, and what, you know, she's been through. And people don't realize, just because you're on stage— and let's talk about this, because, you know, the stage is such another world, the energy that you need to be on stage, the energy you need to perform— but you do have an exquisite talent. I've heard you sing, I know how brilliant you are, and I know that the Bonnie Raitt number 'I Can't Make You Love Me' is a wonderful, wonderful song, and I can hear that with you. But the outside world doesn't see that very often, and I'm so pleased that people like Tina bared her soul, and that's why I opened with the Oscar Wilde, the bearing of the soul, because it's so difficult to to be that person. People hang so much on your image, on who you are, and they want all that joyousness. And they get— sometimes people get envious, jealous, and they can be all sorts because of it. But they don't realize quite how difficult it is to be that person, to maintain your own talent, to keep performing in such an energy. But also underneath that, you've got a mission, and you're still wanting to do that mission. So it's not all about you, it's what you bring back to society. And isn't that the greatest gift you can give the world? And that's the greatest gift of a human being, is to be able to do that. There is a saying that behind every mask there is a story, and sometimes people have to put on a mask, a lot of performers put on a mask, you know, my Mr Fabulous is my alter ego, you know, but you know, some of us, there are some out there who don't bare their soul, but I made the decision to do that, because I want people to understand, I want people to realize that, you know, the world ain't paved with gold and it's not paid, you know, opportunities don't come knocking on your door, you know, you have to go and create your success, you have to motivate yourself, you have, you know, you have to go through a lot of criticism and a lot of setbacks and knockbacks, you know, and, you know, not everyone's going to understand you and this is where this is your calling to go out there and and make people understand and show people that, you know, you are no less or no more of a person. You are just as equal as they are. And a very good, a very good saying that, you know, it's a mantra that I've always kept with me. I always repeat it everywhere I go, and that is motivation brings conviction and conviction brings movement. In life, you have to, you have to be motivated. You have to, in whatever situation, whether it be people, career, training, whatever it is, you have to be motivated. And you have to convict in that. You really have to have that conviction, that fight to be successful. And that drive, that fight then brings about a certain movement, you know, and that— Absolutely. —becomes your vehicle that allows you to move forward and allows you to just be that person you want to be. And I always say to people, please don't step back, don't go backwards, just keep looking forward. Because, you know, the world is your oyster. The only person that's going to disappoint is going to be you. So do you have an image? So when you wake up on those days that you get tired and you've been out, or, you know, you've had something that's knocked you back, what is your image that you refer back to? Or are there words that you refer back to that gives you back your drive, your motivation, and that moves you forward? I use the affirmations that, you know, that I wake up, I have to wake up and I have to remind myself that, you know, I've overcome. That's the first thing I say. I've overcome. I've acquired, which means I've acquired a lot of knowledge. I'm beautiful and I can do anything. And those, you know, and you know, you have to. When I say to yourself, it's not being vain when you say I'm beautiful. You have to tell yourself you are beautiful. Of course. Because if beauty starts by understanding how beautiful you are, it's not just in look, it's the person, the spirit. That's what you're telling each morning, that you are beautiful. And that's what you carry through to the world. Exactly, and that's what you give off to the world. And if, you know, if you can change somebody's life, you know, the most amazing thing is sometimes I too have my moments, but people always look up to me for inspiration and stuff, and I too sometimes feel a bit sad and low, but then I get messages on Instagram where people who I don't even know send me messages from all over the world who've either seen something I've done in their country and tell me how much they inspired me. And the The funny thing is those messages pop up at some of the times where I'm feeling down, and I have to thank that. And it makes you realize and say, you know what, Jay, you're doing something right. You know, look at the amount of people that message you and tell you that you're helping them. And, you know, some I've had the privilege of getting to know and building profound, wonderful relationships. Others I will never get to meet, but at least I know that I can still be there for them. I send them messages and tell them that they're going to be go, right? And it's just that selfless, selfless act of kindness can go a long way, and it can really make a magnitude of difference to others out there. Totally. Because what you're doing is seeing your own pain, everything you've gone through, but also you see in others. And I think the disaster of our world at the moment is so many people are very narcissistic. And what I mean by that is we're all— we all have that. We all grow up being narcissistic. We have to find ourselves. But people are to a point where they don't see how they affect the other. The joy of who you are is you're not only— you're doing it to be yourself and to express yourself to the best of your ability, to show your talent, to show your beauty, to show your conviction and motivation in life and your future, and you help bring people in. But you also— you do it for others. And you see the other person and you see the pain they go through. You'll recognize that. But also you recognize that you can affect them. So you actually have tempered yourself. You know that being angry will affect them detrimentally. You know that if you go into, as you did with the choir, if you're back in that moment where you are saying, "No, no, don't go ahead," and you're not going to teach them, and you buy into their envy or wherever their mood is, that envy, greed, that sort of point where they want to be you, you stood back. You didn't say, right, you're not going to do that, I'm not going to teach you. You stood back and say, right, off you go, do what you can do. But the reality is they're not going to be you. That's right. So let's go to which— whose clothes would you love to wear? Whose clothes would I love to wear? You are the perfect model for clothes. Oh gosh, there are so many. Do you know what, I have a love for many young emerging designers. Yeah. And I've helped a lot of young emerging designers go on to doing really well. Some have now been featured on Tatler and Vogue and done Helsinki Fashion Show, which is amazing to see. I don't know, I would— there are so many amazing. So you want to inspire young designers, so that is fantastic. I would love to. I think, I think, you know, I, I was once given an opportunity by the Prince's Trust, um, to, to, to set up my, my music career, and they, they took me on board, and they were like a family to me. They understood. They're still very good friends of mine. I went on to becoming an ambassador for them, you know, built a very successful business, you know, helping and developing other singers and musicians and performing all over the world, including Buckingham Palace and you know, um, and then, you know, the, the reward from that came from winning a Pride of Britain. And that was another point in my life where, you know, you, you say at what point you look back and you, you, you, you see, you know, that gives you strength. That's another moment. Yeah, because it identifies you, it gives you, it validates you. People are witnesses to who you are. We all need those witnesses. People need to be heard. But it's not just— you don't go around saying, "Poor me." You don't just spill the beans. Today we're doing this because I've asked you to come on to express what you've gone through, because I know you and I know how you motivate others and how brilliant you are in that, and that you care for others. But unless you're validated, the trouble is lots of people just go around sort of moaning and whinging and saying, "Oh, my life is terrible." but you actually take that further. I'm not saying that people's lives are not terrible. There are people who go through such wretchedness in their lives. But how do we take it further? And you're forever learning. How can I take this further? What can I do? How can I make my life better, enjoy my life, and by the same token make other people's lives better? So if you had a magic wand, Jay, what would you like to change A, in your past, and what in the world would you like to change? If I had a magic wand, um, I wouldn't— to be honest, Maria, I wouldn't change what happened in the past because the past is what's made me. The past shaped me into the person I am today. I might not have been that, you know, that person. Maybe my, my cards would have been dealt differently, um, but, um, but I, you know, that's who's made me. That is what's made me the person I am today. And for all of those chapters in my life, whether they're good or bad, you know, I've learned from them and some I'm grateful to, some have been painful, but I feel as though that I had to go through that pain. If I had, you know, the wand, I'd probably make myself a little bit taller actually. There's always something, isn't there? We all— we're all the same. But, you know, but, uh, Alex, Alex, accept the fact that I'm a little fucking rocket in Cuban heels. Yeah. Um, no, um, this— what I, what I would love is I just would love people to just have a little bit more peace in their heart, a bit more faith, you know. Um, that, you know, that's the one thing, you know, just, just a little bit of kindness, you know. I think, I think we need this in the world. I think it's like at one point when we think that we're really doing well and everybody's coming, you know, like the, the, the pandemic really brought us together and you started to see a sense of community. You started to see that people coming out and clapping for the NHS and what have you, and then all of a sudden, you know, it's like all of that slowly is getting lifted and people just seem to just go off on a tangent and start forgetting all those wonderful things. And I keep saying, if we can just, you know, go back and just see what kept us together, I just say a little bit of kindness. You know, we just need to remind ourselves to be kind and what kindness means and think about what we, you know, we all went through it. So every single person in this whole world went through the pandemic. So that's something we share, and what got us through, you know, we had social media and FaceTiming, talking, you know, we started to understand, we started to communicate with each other more, and we started to be more kind with each other, and, you know, and it started to make things look and feel really nice. Some people saw it as as the worst thing, you know, I lost a lot of work out of it. But, you know, but the one thing I love is the fact that the friendships and the connections that I built at a time that was so, so difficult for us. That's something I would love each and every person to just hold on to, just hold on to that little bit of kindness, a little bit of humility in your heart, because that really does go a long way. You know, no one's perfect. I'm not perfect. We will never be perfect, but we at least can be kind in an imperfect world. Yeah, and if you were now, you know, sort of, this is a long time to go yet in your life, but what would you like to leave behind in your life? Is there an action? Is there a behaviour? Is there a memory? Would you like people, would you write a book? That's something we've discussed in the past as well, Miriam, about writing a book. And I think, you know, it's really funny actually, last night I watched the film adaptation of Jamie, Being Jamie. Yes, yes. And it just made me think that maybe it might be an opportunity for me to write a musical. You know, um, yeah, yeah, about a young South Asian man calling in life. Do you know what, Jay, this is such a good idea, and I think those are the things you really must write down because you have such an extraordinary future ahead of you with so many people that love you, and you do give that off when people see you. Not only are you gorgeous and you have this swagger and you have sass. And anybody who watches Mr. Fabulous Behind the Glitter Ball will see that side of you, but also that depth of character, the depth of your soul that resonates with the soul of the world. That's what I wanted people to hear from you today, because you have been through it and you've picked yourself up. And you could have been just left there, you could have been vile, you could have been angry, and you're not. And you are one of the most wonderful people out there and a great role model for people So, Jay, Mr. Fabulous, can I just say thank you so much for joining me today? I cannot tell you how joyful this hour has been. Thanks so much.