Your Mind Matters – Julia Fisher, The Creative In Business

Hello, my name is Dr. Maria Kempinska, and I am absolutely delighted to have my guest, a very special— not only friend of mine, colleague, but, uh, somebody I respect immensely in the world of psychotherapy and healing. Her name is Julia Fisher. She has an MA in psychotherapy and healing. She has been a psychotherapist for a number of years and deals with highly successful artists in psychotherapy, but also other people, not only in the world of business, but obviously when people come to Julia as a psychotherapist, they come in with their personal problems and dilemmas. And for her, she gets a story that most of us would never hear unless you're in the world of psychotherapy. Um, she's also a colleague of mine, as I say, and we both trained together, so I'm delighted that we had similar training. However, as is true with all training, we end up being very good at certain areas of our work. And Julia attracts a lot of very successful creative people, as I've said, and I really wanted to discuss with her the pitfalls and highs of the creative in business today, because this is particularly for the world of business. So Julia, thank you so, so much for joining me., and it's wonderful to see you. Thanks, Maria, it's lovely, and thank you for inviting me. So, Julia, can you— the world of psychotherapy, actually, let's just put it, make it clear, what is the world of psychotherapy? Because there are so many counselors, there's so many therapists out there, you know, even, even somebody who massages dogs is a therapist. So the term psychotherapist gets confused for a lot of people in their own minds, and a counselor. And then you've got sort of a hypnotherapist, then you've got a psychiatrist, and you have a psychologist. So can you just give us the definition of what psychotherapy is? For me, the definition and distinction— and also on top of all that, Marie, you have the different methodologies. Yeah. And a different way of approaching in therapy, and even sometimes mixing them. But I think the essence is to help someone reach their present potential, to feel comfortable in their world and their internal world. And I think with psychotherapy, it's not just fixing the radiator. Sometimes we need to go to the boiler. Staying focused is okay with certain disciplines like CBT are useful, but I do see it very much radiator-based. Yeah, I love that analogy. You said— I— you've just reminded me of you telling me that many, many years ago, and I think that's so profound because, as you say, if you can't fix the boiler, the radiator is constantly going to get broken, and different ones as well. Yeah, and so you don't know which component is going to be broken. But also, I think the art, the art of psychotherapy, so it is, um, combining the two, keeping the focus but also looking at the underbelly of the psyche. So, and that often comes with dreams. Yeah, I love that. I love the area of dreams, which we'll come to. But also, you have to build up immense trust. So it's not just a 6-week program. It can be for some people if they've got— if you've got no choice. But the area of trust, and you almost become like the— I don't want to say priest because it has too many religious connotations, but the soul— you enter into the world of their soul, don't you? Which is the exact meaning of psyche. And you enter it by invitation, not by battering down. It has to come at the client's pace as well. Yes, you can challenge certain belief systems which aren't true, but nonetheless, if they're believed to be true, you have to be patient with that process. Because in a way, I have found, especially with the creative, going back to early peer, 6, 7-year-old expectation and in the system, often the creative would turn to the joker or become withdrawn or find other ways because they're not creative in the sense of routine at that age or organization. And so their minds and expression is very spontaneous. Well, of course, that's not in the system. Yeah. So often with the creative, it's like a rebirth with psychotherapy. It gives them permission to go back because, as you know, Maria, the unconscious has no time memory at all. An emotion will pop up if it's triggered.. And if that behavior is the same as, say, at 7 years old, it needs to be rescripted and understood and embraced. That's the difference, I think, with psychotherapy. And you mentioned dreams. Let's talk about that as well, although I'd like to do a bigger podcast on dreams with you because I know, I know how you understand imagery. Symbolism is very big in your work and for yourself. You understand that world with just such great intensity. And, um, but not only the intensity, you understand how one relates to another. And there aren't many people, I believe, in the world of psychotherapy that understand symbolism. But let's focus just on dreams for the moment. Do— how often do you use dream work with clients, and how soon do you introduce it? Ideally quite early, with a journal, because often with the talking I don't record, that they can take their pertinent notes, just notes, or I can scribble a few notes down, then they can copy them in. But with the dreams on the opposite page, when there is a dream— and as you know, there's different types of dreams— but it's the one they remember, they bring, they learn to bring. And in many ways, that's the creative of the work, because you're exploring with them. Because I don't sit there and interpret the dreams per se, I ask them, how does it feel? What does it feel like? Because as you know, the symbolism isn't literal. And how quickly do they engage with you, particularly the artists? Are they resistant or are they willing? They're very willing. Very willing. Usually there's this outpouring of the life story very quickly. Yeah, amazing. Is it somehow because somebody who knows understands them? Totally understands them. They want to regurgitate every trauma, often as quickly as possible, to get that bit out the way. To get to the why. And the whole point of the creative isn't the what, it's the why. Right, to understand. Yes. And do you think, let's talk about the creative. What is your take on it? I was just looking to remind myself about all the different theories, as you know as well. You know, like Freud said often, it's escape from reality. I mean, Jung actually talked about the process of individuation, which is what psychotherapy helps you do. Who are you in as a separate from the world as also being creative. We recreate ourselves. But there's some people who use creativity to form isolation around them, as, um, that's one suggestion, that it creates a sort of barrier and a security for them. It enables them to be isolated from the rest because they've gone through a trauma. And yet there's another aspect of the creative which has the conflict that they feel internally, and that's between themselves, how they live their lives and their immortality. You know, I create an artistry because it's going to be there forever. So that's sort of given a number of different understandings for the creative. And I presume when a creative comes to you, they have all these ideas in their minds that they have to deal with, all these aspects of their own personality that they don't even know that they are in conflict with. Indeed, I like the— the isolation is an interesting one because sometimes the isolation is born from the fact they haven't given up with the pressure, yeah, of not to be a creative. And so on that level, they may have felt isolated most of their life but feel safe. I don't always see it as an defensive thing. No, I agree with that. Um, and coming back to the creative and what they're passing down, I think you only need to look at some artists in the past who weren't recognized. That's also very much in the psyche. Well, I might be not recognized in this lifetime, but afterwards I might be. So it's the longevity of it, it's not so personal. Do you— do they bring in their work to you as well? Are you— do they sort of show and tell, if you like? Is it part of their exposure to you when they show you their work, whatever their work is? Well, the first time that happened, I was a bit surprised and I didn't know how to behave, actually. They unpacked their car and guitars came in. Okay, is, is this another way of expressing yourself, but you can't express yourself by talking? Yeah, but all many thoughts and assumptions went through my mind. Actually, what they wanted to share was what they were talking about, right, their process. And sometimes it is semi-autobiography, in— not totally, but the dreams are there, other people in their lives are there. They're not named, they might— may not even recognize it, but it filters through. So yes, they do sometimes bring it in. Yeah, that's so interesting because it teaches me to sit and listen. Yeah, because that is what you have to do, isn't it? Because you're so As a therapist, you are there also to support and enable that journey, but you also want to make sure that they don't keep falling down or going into a bad space for themselves, that you understand and they see that you understand. So, but I can see in your manner, and I know how good you are, so I know how popular you are as well, so I'm delighted with that. Can I just ask you about the Sorry, go on. Sorry, the introvert, the introverted nature. Do all creatives have an element of themselves that is introverted? Not all, and we go back to the Jungian functions, I think, which I think you should do a podcast on, which we will. Yeah, I, I, I, I think the introvert has a bigger problem of expressing So they may— if you even take it into a business boardroom, everyone's sitting there, they're sharing their thoughts, ideas. The introvert will be processing internally first, then will come out with the question, but it usually is the question no one else will ask. And they also have knowledge stuck in that conversation. Yes. So it's such— so let's, let's move into business because now that you've sort of— let's talk about the creative artist in business and then the creative per se in business. So the artist in business, um, they get into the world of business, they, they decide they're going to be a musician or an artist or a chef or somebody in that world that has to, that wants to make money, and they find they have a talent for making money. And then suddenly, let's focus on the artist who is a musician in some way. Suddenly they are picked up by a management and then a label, and they're guided into the world of fame and success. That's how we see it. But the reality is quite different, isn't it? Because they also have to go over certain hurdles to get there and certain compromises. And I think for the creative, that's very difficult because what people won't often— and why should they? Because they're dealing with the present and fame, but the past of the struggle of them trying to do everything, manage themselves, etc., and then having to trust— yeah, the management is one of the big hurdles. But often with the creative, um, it's not always, but they need to delegate certain things because with their mindset, dealing with the accounts, the negotiations, and sometimes a very cutthroat nature of the present, and it's highly competitive, takes away from the creative innovation. Yeah. And if— how— say, how did they learn to delegate? I know that they have managers and they've got to learn to trust managers and so on. Let me ask you, for me, the most pertinent question is, should every creative in the world of business have a psychotherapist, a permanent psychotherapist? I think every person in the world should. Yeah, so do I, but you know, the business should pay for— that's what I'm thinking. I think it should be there as a support regarding the trust, because often even with the trust issue for the creative, that as you say, the compromises are made. Well, this is their baby. Yeah, totally. And now it's being dressed in a very different way. And they can take that in a very personal, very protective way of loss. And so then that can mar the trust. Will you look after this as I want you to? So I think with that, like any mediation, psychotherapy can help that. And if that were to be the case— and I'm sure people would ask argue this from the world perspective of business, whose side would the therapist be on? Do you know what I mean? Who does it represent? The artist in relation to the business, or the business? Or do you act as more than a mediator, a sort of psychotherapeutic mediator? Because mediators don't often have that psychotherapeutic understanding, the depth of knowledge. They wouldn't have had the client bare their soul to them. You wouldn't necessarily have built up trust. You'd have given details of what you want the outcome to be in a contract, but the trust— so who do you see the psychotherapist as primarily representing? I think it's not only representing the support, it's also helping the creative to voice, because the psychotherapist does have that knowledge. And helping them develop, for instance, to say no or yes, but can you explain more? Yeah, rather than going on this roller coaster of emotions and not voicing it and being stuck in the protective. So I think what the psychotherapist can do when that relationship has been built is to help them, their client, to represent their voice better, not just creative voice but internal voice. And should they be on call, you know, sort of as, um, on permanent call? Because there was a band, and I can't remember which band, and one of the singers was so, um, unstable at certain points, emotionally unstable, very creative, very able to perform, but emotionally he felt that he'd lost his center, which is understandable. It's a big deal to perform. Um, and so he took his therapist with him everywhere. So how on call should a therapist be? I think that's a very personal decision for the therapist. I have boundaries, and they're boundaries to keep me safe as well. Do you want to go into that a little bit more? How— why did you choose that? Because I think the being on call doesn't contain anything. And with my work, I try and give not just the psychotherapy but actual tools so they can become their own mini therapist, if you like, at certain times. But I do think it should be available like a retainer on any advisor. So that— I totally believe they're undervalued and not used wisely. What is the most common problem that creatives come in to you? And you might have different sort of styles of problem, but what is the most common problem that creatives do you feel face in business? I think there's two. I think one is relationships, and I think the second would be regarding their own value regarding negotiations. Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah, because as a creative, it comes so naturally. Yeah. Like any artist, it's often difficult to learn to put a price on it. And then, so how hurt do they get when a price is put on their, their artistry, if you like? Well, most of the time at the top it's kind of okay, it's okay, but the journey up can be difficult. For them. Because it's quite rare they overinflate, but when they do, just down to position, not talent, that can be very difficult. And also for the management. And is it to guard themselves? Is it a protect— is it a defense mechanism as well? I think it is. Yeah. I think it is. Yeah. And depending on their history, of course, how those defenses are playing out. Yes. How strong an army that defense is. It can even lead to non-negotiation. Yeah. Yeah. Coming back to that, I've experienced that with people in business per se, that very early childhood relationships— we'll talk about relationships and partnerships, but particularly their early family relationships play out in the workplace, in the business. And the person— I think this is, you know, sort of typical. This is typical of what happens in life, but recognized by psychotherapists that the stuff that you didn't play out, the world that you encountered as a child, still plays out in the workplace with the father, the dynamic of the father or the mother. And I've seen various businessmen play things out with a female in business who's in power. Or a woman who plays out aspects of the male in power. And when I was, as you know, I ran John Bliss Comedy Clubs, and when I had somebody working for me and he had a baby, a baby was yet to be born, so he was designated time off afterwards, but beforehand he had already taken time off to prepare the home for the baby with his partner. And then he asked for extra time, and because it was Christmas, and I said, oh, we're really struggling, I really need you to come in. He was really upset because I'm the woman and I should have been far more benevolent to him because I was the woman in business, and that carried different symbolism to him. So what do you see in that world in that way? Do you— is that the type of thing? What I tried to do, I like to give um, pictures, mind pictures really. If say there was a trauma at 7 or something taken in as a negative and the person I'm speaking to is say 25, 30 or whatever age, I ask them, would you allow that person, that child, to be in the relationship you're in? 'Now the first answer is no, quite rightly. Would you allow them to run your business?' 'No.' I said, 'But they are in these areas.' But as you know, the unconscious doesn't know time, and it registers as a similar— but also in healing, the unconscious doesn't know time. So I work on, if you like, the younger trauma to develop it and bring it up to the present. But I also ask the client to take responsibility for that, not rely on external. Yeah. And do you think by you recognizing it and verbalizing it and putting it into words— and that symbol is brilliant, actually, and I hope that people when they watch this, they recognize how brilliant that is because it's a concept of yours. You know, when you say that, to bring in that 7-year-old to negotiate on your behalf, do you think that gives them much more of a focus and it helps them with that imagery? It gives them the focus, a sense of power and responsibility. Yeah. And I'd love to say that was my concept, but my analyst when I was training for years, 4 years compulsory, as you know, we went weekly. And when I left, I asked him, you know, he said to me, what won't you eat, Julia? I said, a boiled egg. He said, why the hell not? I said, because my mother could not cook a boiled egg properly and the white was chunky. He said, how old are you? And I told him. He said, go home and cook your own boiled egg. Because your mother's still in charge. So I call that my boiled egg syndrome. Yeah, that's brilliant. I put it out there in different ways. So yeah, but that's brilliant. If you put it in a story, the creative understands, the intuitive understands. Um. The inner child. There's a lot of stuff being done on the inner child, isn't there? It's almost like the inner child knows best. But I think what you've hit on there is also the responsibility of that inner child. You're— it's not just to awaken it, it's to be reminded of it, but to bring it up to adulthood. Because I think it embraces it, look after it, and give it the responsibility. What would it do now? Not just because often you have Oh, you know, you— let's go back to your inner child, which is— I'm not talking about your therapy, I'm talking about the general, you know, cliché therapy. You know, we've got to explore our inner child, but they don't give it boundaries, responsibilities. They don't bring it up to date. They don't bring it up to age. They just let it free as if that is an omnipotent, all-knowing, all-being Well, I, I take the attitude that ideally everybody should have a very good childhood. The reality is very far from that. So rather than waiting and projecting that outwards and that destroying other relationships because of a past need, that the person presenting it It's all grown up now, but make it— helping them understand that they didn't have that logic as a child. It was pure emotion. And to visit that emotion and to actually look after it on a daily basis so it neutralizes. It's not let free, it's allowed back in. It's not separated off, it is part of the person. So I use the word embracing it, holding it. Now that you've engaged with the client, with the element of that child in negotiation and so on, Um, and you talk about trust, but let's talk about partnerships. You mentioned partnerships, um, relationships as a whole. There could be a whole history of why relationships aren't working, but once that person becomes recognized or has a different value, again, the history is still there, and they may be testing, over-testing the relationships or attracting negative relationships because of the past. And that can also, with the creative, add to the aloneness. Yeah. And you, you mentioned aloneness as opposed to wanting to be like an introvert has to have time alone. Yes, on their own. Being on your own as opposed to aloneness, forced aloneness. They are forced into an area where they can't trust anybody. Excuse me. It's all a matter of having that choice. Yeah. And for me, what psychotherapy is about, deep psychotherapy, is the person to be able to choose, not be driven by history. Yeah. And often if they replace— so now we've got an artist who is successful, and there's the joy of success, but also there's the burden of success. People like Amy Winehouse and a number of, you know, the 27 Club, who get to 27 and they die. They often— let's talk about somebody like Amy, and I always feel sad for the solo artist that has to carry so much on behalf of everybody. The manager, the label, you know, the organization, and the, the all, the all-important partnership, which becomes so dependent. Yeah, because of the aloneness. Alone. Yeah, because, but also, you know, Avicii, if you remember the DJ, the young DJ, he was about 27, 28 when he took his own life. And I remember, you know, so I did write a blog about that, about saying, oh my goodness, if he had had his own psychotherapist, he could have turned to that person in that moment of need, because although they travel with people that allegedly support them, they support them on behalf of the business. They don't necessarily support— There's agendas. There's agendas. Exactly. However— It's agenda-driven. Yeah. You know. Yes. And that's why often I think artists need their partner, I mean their love partner, their husband, wife, you know, whoever they are in that way, to be part of their world, that they can actually have that true support. And that's why I think a therapist stands outside that is absolutely vital in those roles when everything gets too much, when you're overwhelmed, and you know that— what does the world want me for? Is it purely for my talent, or is it for me? And go— and going back to the partner, they have good agendas, obviously, but is it fair for the partner to take that role on as therapist, because often in families one person will become that person, and it actually robs them of that— the other full relationship they should be having. Yeah, very, very— actually, that's such an extremely important point, which is relevant, I think, Julia, not only to artists but generally in life. But businesses— while we're talking about businesses, and why I'm so pleased that you were willing to come in and do this podcast, particularly for businesses, because we know they can make an impact. We know that they can, you know, make a change that will actually be a model for everybody. Look, if we can do it, you can do it. Well, I think what the creative can offer business is they can mobilise fast. Yeah, very fast in a very, well, highly competitive changing world we live in now. They will challenge assumptions to resolve and use innovation, but it pays off because if you look at the companies that have folded down to ignoring change. Many have gone. It's fast changing. With the creative, if you're employing a creative, really you're employing a mini entrepreneur. Absolutely. And often quite cheaply. Listen to them. Yeah, yeah. And the reality is— but also the creative. I was just saying the reality is that most mentors have never ever been entrepreneurs. They've never experienced that. No, no. And self-employment is a creative path as well. Absolutely, yes. And the creative will struggle with what I call the mundane. But they also need to understand their organization and routine is paramount to manifesting anything. Otherwise, they will be robbed. I say record, record, record. Email ideas, write them down on paper, because it's huge plagiarism. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And the whole of the music industry is— there have been so many cases of plagiarism, and there's plagiarism totally. And you know, and I know, when we wrote our dissertations, the nerve-wracking thing was we had to sign a form saying no unconscious plagiarism. I began to worry even using the word the. Yeah, such a good point. Um, so let's talk about, as you sort of touched on also, the creative temperament in a business. If you're— I remember having a client who struggled working in a very large corporate business. He was in the sort of, uh, he was in the training section, but he realized some of the training wasn't effective. He wanted to bring his own strain, if you like, to the training, but he wasn't allowed to. But nevertheless, the corporate gave him the sustainability in life, his money, his kudos, you know, everything he needed otherwise. How does a creative reconcile that? If they find it impossible in that environment to be heard. And it's not for ego, it is because they can see the obvious down the line. They might not have the details in place and the what's, but they can understand. If that is impossible, then the creative needs to find the event outside side. Otherwise, they will become quite questioning and try and mimic what they're not and struggle. And I presume— sorry, they can— I presume they can also be unconsciously rebellious as well. Well, they can, but What I've experienced more with clients is frustration and this job is not for me. Yeah, but practically, practically they need to pay their rent, their mortgage, etc. Is to try and find, um, if it's very difficult, I change the language. You know, most people will say I have to go to work. I take it to extreme and say, no, you don't. You choose to. You choose because it pays the rent. You choose because you want to eat. And that even in itself empowers and takes away from what they see as the hamster wheel. Yeah. No, you're choosing to get on it temporarily. Go on it, it has a purpose. But the creative also needs to find— well, also the company is required to listen. As I said, companies that are not being adaptable and flexible and growing, which are all creative tenets, are struggling. So do you think, and this is just off the top of my head as we're speaking, in big corporations, as you know, they have different sections, you know, so you have all the required aspects of in the boardroom. So you have the chair and you have the CEO and you have the financial officer, but also then they have HR and so on. There's no creative department whatsoever that recognizes the creative. I wonder if the psychotherapist could sit within the creative department that we've just created, frankly, here, because I can see the value in that. And I do know that a lot of big, even banking businesses, are approaching the psych— you know, when I was training at Essex, somebody came in to find out the process of absorbing the anomaly in life. And that's— he had to study Jung in order to do that, because they are used to paradigms that are logical and rational. But life isn't logical, life isn't rational, nor is the psyche. But by doing that, they were able to understand that things can go wrong, and they have, as we've seen. But so do you think a creative psychotherapeutic aspect to the business could be the answer, so that the creatives can come in with that idea and say, look, where would I put this? How would I express this? I think as a psychotherapist, my dream is that business have the psychotherapist also as a mediator with the CEO. Yeah, exactly. Of making space once a week even to sit there and listen to the creative, because that, that energy, those juices won't dry up. They won't be withheld. They will be flowing. And if there's 100 ideas, there might just be 2. But it's two that the rational would not have thought of. Now, we also need the sensations, the rational, because they often do the detail. The creative isn't usually very good in the detail. So it's also making sure that the creative doesn't compromise who they are. Yes. In relation to the work that they do. Yes, play to your strengths. Play to your strengths, but also find a way, or companies can find a way, to accommodate the artist because the artistic temperament, let's say, because if you're in the world of theatre, or whether it's comedy or theatre or music, or even if you're, you know, or a chef, any form of performance, if you like, there is that section that's the artist. The artist has certain needs and requirements and a temperament, but it is put in a silo. But I'm talking about the artistic temperament within the structure, within the corporate corporation, that is very effective as a worker, but also what you're saying is open up that door to the creative temperament and be heard. Because where do they go at the moment? And that's not— well, in the world at all, in the corporate It's often seen in the media or the marketing, but it's bigger than that. There's a creative in the accounts. Yeah, exactly. It's a very creative area. That's overlooked. Yeah, often seen as a boring job. It's one of the most creative in any company. Yeah, but it's also about reviewing. Same with relationships, you know, businesses need to sit, review, and bring in the new things, and that does include recognizing the creative. Yeah. Now I also want to pick up on what you said about the rebel in the creative. That is often seen quite early as being rebellious. If in early school someone's talking about one subject and the creative creative starts expanding, it's been brought back and they continue, it's seen as being rebellious or not being focused. Now those messages go in and they'll often come in the creative and announce them. It's not true. It's not true. How do they carry that? So that it's How did they reconcile? They actually play out the role of the rebel. Yeah, they inflate it, and I think that leads to many problems of behavior, including drugs and drink and all kinds of stuff and excesses. And how does that begin? Absolutely. But how did they— in this world, I think the post-COVID world is going to be as we've already recognized, going to be very different. But, you know, that whole aspect of the artist was always looked after with drink and drugs, and that was part of the Ryder system, if you like. How do you think the artist now is going to work with the knowledge that— how do they work with the knowledge of their power within a business? How do they work within those truly successful that you've had? You know, yes, they have, they can replay a certain type of partnership problem, but how do they reconcile the yes syndrome that is around them all the time, and how can businesses help with that? I think they recognize it as part of the business. And it is separating that. It's part of the business, and it's very important to have a very strong foundation away from the business. And if it's not in family, then psychotherapy can offer that, unless the whole family becomes like the Kardashians or some other reality show where everybody is vying for that role in the world, and they fly too high and they can fall without having— that's, that's a family dynamic, possibly. Yeah, exactly. And that can be really damaging everywhere. Um, stress. How do they deal with stress? Because they must be, particularly again if the artist is a lot more coming to psychotherapy I find the creative taking more interest in their health as well in lockdown. Being a creative, I don't call it lockdown at all, I call it incubation time. I'm incubating. But in that time, They're checking out their health, they're checking out what can they do to improve their fitness. Remember, innovation is the key, so they're trying to find ways around things. So the creative, I think, has done well, not necessarily working-wise, but in other ways. Yeah, and I found, and I'm sure you found this because you're so open to this sort of conversation, that I found people were having much more in-depth soul-searching conversations from people that I had worked with that you would never dream would bare their soul, their hopes, their dreams, their reflections. And being able— in many ways it's been a level up. Yeah, yeah, we all share. Yeah, it's like a unit, school uniform, we're all wearing it. Yeah, there's no free choice on that, and I think that's given the ability to share things they probably wouldn't have done before. Yeah, exactly. I just think it's such a powerful time for people, but what are— how do you help them accommodate their stress? And are creatives— do they feel stressed more readily than anybody else? I think their stress is based on their creativity won't fail them. It keeps coming. And so then we look at areas where the mundane, if it can't be delegated, can be accommodated, but it doesn't overwhelm them. Yeah. That creativity is a fear it's going to stop. Yeah, stress. Yeah, that's really powerful. And also because creativity isn't rational, it's chaotic. And so do you find that you help them understand their chaos, make sense of it, bring it into the light, if you like, and how to convey, manifest it in the here and now as well? Yeah, I'm more manifesting it and bringing it into the light. You're manifesting it. It's already in the light. Yeah, it's about manifesting, making it real, and accepting failure as well, as they see a failure or struggle as part of the journey. So it's a learning journey, it's about transformation as well. The creative, not being stuck. And what happens to the creative when they are stuck at work? So again, a music— the music industry is slightly easier because to deal with. And if they're in music and they have been— they've had money poured into them to make an album or certain amount of music tracks, and they now have to the business has to recoup the money that they've invested. The artist then is on standstill. Is there a better way of doing this, both for the artist and for the business? Because fundamentally, I think the tragedy very often in the arts is that the business doesn't know how to negotiate with the artist to keep, as you say, the juices flowing. Flowing, to keep that going effectively. And by stopping that, it can also stop the artist from being truly productive. But the business equally has to make money, but there's a missing link between the two areas sometimes. That business just sees, I've got to recoup my money and this artist hasn't sold enough albums or, you know, enough music on Spotify or wherever, or hasn't got enough live shows for me to you know, sort of bring that money back in, to recoup my, you know, sort of money from them. But the artist is stuck now. Well, they're tied into— they're both stuck. They're both stuck, exactly. And that, to unstick that, requires communication on both sides, because the money is what puts the roof over the artist's head as well and manifest the physical world for them. But the unsticking of it is about understanding each side, not just the artist's side but also the management side. And I think that's where possibly even yourself, with your experience in business, can help negotiate that, mediate that. Just to find that a glimmer of unstuckness. Yeah, and that whole area that we're just talking about, the creatives, the mediation, the ability to, the voice that needs to be heard everywhere effectively, that can, as you say, unstick the label, because they are then seen as being purposely resistant to the creative, and also the creative who is feeling like this and feeling that they're not being heard and their own temperament and their own ability is me— is, um, not being expressed. Exactly. And I think that mediation opens things. It's about reinventing again. Yeah. Not to stay in the stuckness of it. So that does two things. It builds huge resentment on both sides as well. Exactly. And that resentment can actually be, you know, it can actually change somebody's life. It can help somebody take their life unconsciously. Yeah, because they feel unprotected. Um, let's talk about competitive jealousy. Should businesses do more to protect the artist from jealousy? And if you take it a step further into social media, all those areas where they are being attacked? I think the jealousy— I'm going to change it to envy. Yeah, because jealousy is different. Envy is often unlived. The person who's feeling it hasn't lived what the other's living, and maybe they need to look at what they're not doing in their life. And that can be explored creatively and in a positive way. Mm-hmm. Um, I find the jealousy is not as big in my practice, but the envy is. Someone feels they should be somewhere or doing something, then Get up and do it then, and help them do it. Yeah, okay. Then you find the envy disappears. Yeah, quite, because you've actually lived it out and find how hard it is. Yes. So do you think that there should be more conversations on this level between business management and the artist? But do you think the management should look at having, you know, therapeutic support themselves as well in order to listen effectively, or just to understand how to listen to themselves and, you know, to both sides, and perhaps to learn the art of mediation themselves. I think the management can gain so much because they understand their business, no question, but they're also dealing with people. Yeah.— and where I think psychotherapy can help the management is in that approach. Yes, it is a business, but it's a human business and it's being sold to human beings. Let's not forget that link. And the manager becomes such an important role in these massive organizations that deal with a number of artists, don't they? So without that understanding of what's really going on under the skin of behaviour for the artist that could be unconscious for the artist and how to recognise that. So when you deal with artists and you deal with people very high up in that world, what are the telltale signs do you think that managers and people in business should look out for with an artist that tells you that they need to be listened to or they're in under deep traumatic stress and they need help. I think one of the key words, first words, is the artist is being awkward. Okay, what— you know, we're going into Socratic questioning. What does awkward mean? Well, they don't want to do that. Have you asked them why? No, but they need to. So awkward is one word. The other one is being forgotten. Yeah, if they feel they're being forgotten, that brings up all kinds of different behaviors for individuals, that it can almost paralyze the creativity because that person yearns for that recognition. Because as you say, the management become a form of, in Freudian terms, parental authority for some, and now they're being ignored. Now they're being ignored. So here we are with artists that have been successful, and yet there are artists who have been successful and then they lose their success in terms of what society wants from them. And very quickly people come and go, don't they? You know, they're the flavor of the month as a musician or a comedian, and just the world itself can change the needs. So comedians aren't working today, you know, um, somebody really makes it in the world of being a chef, uh, other chefs just don't make it. How, how can the business help them? Deal with that transition into a new world, and should they take that responsibility? I'm not sure if they should. I think it comes back down to the artist first, to recognize it's not definitive. It is in joy, but it's not the end either. They're bigger than— they're bigger than their song, their skating, their tennis, the football. They're bigger than— and it's to look past into a different transition of life, which they can still contribute, but also recognize other people will be coming up. There, there are— there is some lifelong talent, always. As you say, the transient— if the artist just hangs on to that 5 minutes, they have stopped the rest of their self growing in different areas. And I do emphasize that. And I think that is You cannot do that without a therapist, a psychotherapist. And I'm not talking about a counselor, because a counselor has got their place. I think they're a good door opener for people, but it's a psychotherapist that delves into the depth of somebody's being and can help them really understand their artistry, their soul, their creativity, and help them transform that through the stages that they need to. Indeed. And also the sadness of that. It can be very depressing. Hmm. Well, we use the word, we use the word reinvention, don't we, so much in the creative world. And some people are masters of reinvention. But actually, it's just a self-developing. I say just a self-developing. It's open because it has a broad and open mind. It's not stuck. The creative should not be stuck. I know people that have actually been very famous, their work has helped them develop into this high status that they're known in their industry, suddenly their industry doesn't want that style anymore, whether it's a disco style or rock style, that's not needed anymore. And they turn to a psychiatrist for medication. Should they rely on psychiatric medication alone? I don't know the individual cases. Sometimes medication can help, but I do think the talking cure, the talking, is vital. And sometimes the medication holds it for that talking to take place. Yeah, hopefully. Yeah. And it's just not meds. Yeah, because I don't, I don't know. I know a few psychiatrists that also have trained as psychotherapists, but the whole of the psychotherapeutic world, psychoanalytic world, was born out of the world of deep mental trauma, psychiatry, and psychiatry. Yeah. So, but do you think psychiatrists have, you know, need to also recognize psychotherapists themselves and recommend psychotherapist, particularly in this world, because as a performer, that moment on stage, as you've seen with people like, uh, Robin Williams, 2 hours to be a comedian on stage is totally exhausting, and his mind is going 10 to the dozen, as a comedian does. And then they come off stage, and who am I when I come off stage? And so they use sometimes recreational drugs, and then they might use medication, but they often need somebody who can bring them back to the root of themselves. As you say, who are you underneath? And I think this is such an important key with psychotherapy, because with all the creatives, it's who are you as a whole. Not just the comedian, not just this, this, but who are you? And that is the grounding. And I do think psychotherapy can offer that. Who are you and what is your story? Yeah. And how far are you in that book? And does the chapter need rewriting? Brilliant. What are you predicting? You know, we make our predictions, check them, change them. Wonderful. So Julia Fisher, MA Psychotherapy and healer, I want to just thank you so much for joining me in this Zoom concerning the pitfalls and highs of the creative in business. Thank you for the opportunity, Maria. Sweet tea. Bye now. Bye. Bye. Bye.