Your Mind Matters – Katherine De Paul, Star Manager And Producer

All great art shines a light or gives a glimpse of a situation that when spoken about opens a portal to an event with feelings that are deeply profound. At times the art in question, whether it's a play or a painting or film, book, music, or comedic line or poem, explores themes that are very personal and extremely complicated to speak about. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. I'm a psychodynamic psychotherapist, and I've chosen a poem to indicate the theme of today's discussion. It's a poem that has haunted me for many years called Breakfast by Jacques Prévert. He poured the coffee into the cup. He put the milk into the cup of coffee. He put the sugar into the coffee with milk with a small spoon. He churned. He drank the coffee and he put down the cup without any word to me. He emptied the coffee with milk and he put down the cup without any word to me. He lighted one cigarette. He made circles with the smoke. He shook off the ash into the ashtray without any word to me. Without any look at me. He got up, he put on a hat on his head, he put on a raincoat because it was raining, and he left into the rain without any word to me, without any look at me. And I buried my face in my hands and I cried. I used that poem actually when I was a drama teacher, and I used it to inspire my drama students to see what evokes and what comes from that for them, because it's such a powerful poem in its own right that I think that it's very rare to find anybody who listens to the poem that doesn't have some sort of reaction there. And today my guest is a talented manager, a mother, wife, a theatre producer, and she is now producing an amazing piece of theatre called 'Mute'. So I wanted to use that theme, that poem, because it's very much part of the 'Mute' theme. What do you say at those times? And there's so much more obviously to her, and this is 'Your Mind Matters', and I'd like to please welcome Catherine DuPaul. Oh, thank you, thank you. That poem is just so haunting and so moving. I've never heard it before, No, it is a magical piece and somehow, you know, sort of when I sort of trained to do theatre many, many, many years ago and there are those particular pieces that you pick up and work with and suddenly you realize it's there forever inside you, don't you? And it somehow resonates with so many elements of your own life, let alone other people's, so You know, when we first met, and it's only a short time, but Catherine, you deal with people all the time, and now you're doing this production of Mute. But before we get into that, and everybody else you manage, which is quite a formidable group of performers, artists, and you have to manage them. And so how you manage them, not only in your behaviour, because you're in a very difficult, tough world, by the way. Anybody who's listening, if you think that managing artists is easy, think again. It is one of the toughest to be in because you not only have to make sure that the artist is happy with what they're doing, but also you have to negotiate with others who are not necessarily the easiest of people. So you're sort of a mediator, you're a negotiator, also at times a counsellor. You have to do so much and you have to think how you speak, but you've sort somehow managed to do all that, haven't you? So before you go into how you came to develop that ability, let's talk about who you are, what you do, and your background. Well, well, thank you, thank you. It's so interesting that you, you mentioned, uh, the difficulties around management. Um, it's not that— what's different, what's difficult about it is that there's a vagueness to it. What I mean by that is that if you were a publisher, that's pretty straightforward what your job is. You, you do the publishing accounting, you go out and get syncs, you work on the artist's behalf in terms of finding collaborations. And so there's, there's a guideline for that, as well as a record company and things like that. With management, you are much like an entrepreneur where you have to be self-motivated. You have to be able to be flexible and give the artist or whoever you're working with what they need. And everybody needs something different to get their careers off the ground. Yeah, but that takes a lot to do because, uh, were you trained or did you just fall into it? I was not trained. Well, I was trained on the job, as they say. I just fell into it. It was, it was not my path, but then it has become my path because I absolutely love I started out in college and I needed to get a job in college to pay for it because of— we all understand that in the US there is a large issue with people paying for college and hopefully that'll get remedied at one point. Anyway, I needed to get a job and one of my earlier jobs was with a music production company and I had no idea who the owner was, but I really sort of lucked into it. I answered an ad And I got hired, and the owner was Judy Collins, the famous folk singer. Yeah, for those who— and I can't imagine that there are very many who don't know Judy Collins— can you mention a couple of her songs that people might recognize? Well, Judy was the first to discover Leonard Cohen and the first to discover Joni Mitchell. Al Cooper from Blood, Sweat, and Tears called Judy Collins up in the middle of the night and said, I am— I'm here hanging out with this singer named Joni. She has a song, do you want to hear it? And she— he put Joni on the phone and Joni sang to Judy Collins, uh, Both Sides Now, and she went and recorded it and it was a hit. And specifically in the UK, it was one of the, the biggest hits. She was She still has the standing lead in terms of weeks on the charts with a song called Amazing Grace, which we all know. Absolutely amazing song. She has an incredible history and really had a knack for identifying talent in that era. But herself, so you've mentioned artists that I am incredibly fond of. Actually, I had an interesting conversation with somebody in the music industry yesterday, and he said, who would you pay a lot of money to go and see? And I was very fortunate to go and see Leonard Cohen before he died. Yes. And I have been a fan of him forever. And it was almost like an epiphany when he performed because he was— he became a monk, didn't he? He did, he did. And his manager— this is interesting from your point of view— his manager actually stole some of his money when he was a monk, quite a lot of it. But she was an ex-girlfriend, so I think there was a lot more to it than just a normal manager you know, sort of artist relationship. But when you talk about artists like Joan Collins, you know, when you talk about your artists and each of them, the lyrics were very much paramount to everything that the artist did. They were very much like Bob Dylan, you know, and that's why when people try to replicate their songs or cover them, it becomes something, you know, sort of like Amazing Grace is just phenomenal, or Leonard Cohen. I don't think actually many people manage to— oh yeah, they do Hallelujah from Leonard Cohen, don't they? They do that one all the time. So tell me about Judy and her songs. Yes, so well, I will. I wanted to— if I'll just— I will circle back to Judy because I think it's an interesting Leonard Cohen-Judy story. Judy's friend asked her to meet Leonard Cohen. And this is before— this is while he was a poet and brought him over to her house and said, oh, he has a couple of songs, but he's not sure that they're really songs. And he played them for her and she said, yes, yes, they're songs. And she encouraged him to record the songs and actually brought him out on stage for his first, very first performance in New York City or anywhere for that matter. And then years later, he asked Judy why she wasn't writing songs. And she thought about it, and she went home, and it really sort of kicked off her own writing, her own writing habit. She's become quite a prolific writer with songs like "Since You've Asked" and a song called "Albatross." She's really— and it's really developed in quite a later stage of her career, which is very interesting. Yeah, isn't that amazing? But I love the idea. And what I do like about the music industry that I know of, uh, is that people tend to work together. They love the collaboration, the inspiration from each other. Um, and especially then, and I hope it still happens now, and I know it does happen. I know Ed Sheeran works with a number of people, Adele, and so on. And a lot of music artists do need somebody else to sort of who understand the rhythm of music, how to make, construct the whole element, because you have to be very— each line is sculptured in its own right, and you've got to know when to add to it and when to take away from it, you know, when to make it just pithy and when, you know, so which ones you repeat and when you do repeat the chorus. So quite an art in its own right because there are writing workshops for songwriters, aren't there? You bet, you bet. And I, I do feel that the art of collaboration takes artists out of their box. It inspires them in some way, and you just never know. Some— sometimes it doesn't work, but oftentimes something even more special comes out of it. In 2015, I suggested to Judy that she meet a young singer-songwriter out of Chicago named Ari Hest and they hit it off. They loved singing together. They recorded an album, and in later that year, it was nominated for a U.S. Grammy. It was the first Grammy nomination Judy's had in 40 years. So it just tells you what kind of, you know, collaborating is a really special— it can be magic. Yeah, and not only did she sort of help performers along, which is just in itself, a gift, because I don't think that happens in many industries, does it? You know, where people actually say, no, it's okay, I am good enough, I have enough creativity of my own not to worry about you taking the limelight away from me, and to be that generous. Yeah, I think that's— it's an interesting thing, because I also think that that comes in different phases. We're— I think we are at the moment, we're at a phase where we're that kind of collaborating that we saw in the early '60s and '70s is not— it wasn't happening, uh, through the '80s and '90s, but now we've kind of circled back where you have all these kids who are sort of writing these songs together and writing top lines and all sorts of things. And it's just really wonderful that they're sharing the spotlight and having features and all this really interesting collaborations and actually making something new happen by the process of people. But, um, Adele, her first big hit, of course, which was a Bob Dylan number. Yep. Um, gosh, and I love the song and it's gone from my mind. I don't know if you can remember it. It'll come back to me. Uh, her big hit, which, uh, He talked about, um, it'll come back anyway. I've got to now look for it. Um, but with, um, oh, do you mean, I think you mean, uh, you Make Me Feel My Love. Make, yes, Make Me Feel My Love. Sorry, what a song. That's it, you know. And it's such an amazing song, and when somebody else covers it, he must be so proud that, yeah, he's somebody I would pay a lot of money to go and see, let's put it that way. So You know, for sure. So when, when you start promoting him, let me know. But coming back to you and your life, um, it's not that easy. You have to be on call quite a lot, don't you, to have the life you lead? But also the other aspect of it is that you are in charge. Correct, correct. Um, yeah, I, I think that takes us That's a personal choice to figure out boundaries and if you're okay with calls at all times because we're working in a global business. There are tours happening all the time. You have to really sort of set your mind that you're going to be there in the timetable that an artist will need you. And if that means that you have to sort of, retweak your schedule to say LA time for a couple of weeks because your artist is there, that's, that's what happens. And all sorts of things happen on the road or happen while one is recording, personal and professionally. You just, you just never know. So, so it's, it's a, it's a choice. But the other side of the coin, which is, is, is the, is that you are running your own show as a manager. That's, that really speaks to me. I think that that's where I It's— I'm okay giving up a little bit of flexibility in my own timetable for my own sense of being able to plan out and see my own vision come to fruition. Yeah, so here you are, you're a young woman in university. Give us a little bit of your backstory, your parents. Where did that idea— how did you get to be quite able to be in control, to manage somebody else? At such a young age? Well, I think, I think it came from sort of having to, to do it. I, I come from a parent— my parents are divorced, were, and they divorced while I was starting college. So I, I started college with the anticipation that it was— I was going to sort of go the normal route and go through college and then even go on to grad school because I was interested in art history. But then that quickly came to light that I had to sort of financially pay for this myself. So I needed a job. So I started to sort of make a plan and put it into action. The plan was not necessarily to go into the music business. The plan was to get myself through college. But I happened to find a job at the same time that I very quickly learned to love and Specifically, Judy and I had a really great partnership. It came on the heels of Judy sort of leaving the major labels or being asked to leave the major labels, not, not willingly. It was, it was a shift in the industry at that point where, where labels were sort of getting rid of some of their, not their biggest sellers, except even if regardless of their legacies, it was about the numbers. So which, which gave, which opened up a huge opportunity to start our own label. So we decided that we were going to start Wildflower Records, and that was quite an adventure. There was all sorts of other artists doing it. We were one of the first, but artists like Ani DiFranco, she was— she had started her own label around the same time, and we had a ball, and it did wonders for her career. We were able to sell even more albums than the majors were because we could pinpoint just Judy Collins fans. Yeah, but also if she's got this talent where she recognizes talent as well as being immensely talented herself, and you backing her up, you know, so you must have had to learn how to do the other bits that, um, needed to make the label happen, because it's quite intricate, isn't it, to make a label happen? Absolutely, absolutely. It was, you know, we Labels are a learning curve. So, so we, you know, in the '90s we had a wonderful distributor who was a great partner, so they were incredibly helpful. We were with a company called Navarre out of Minneapolis and they were incredibly helpful in, in sort of the learning the nuts and bolts of how to run a label, which, which was great. And then at one point we decided that the label was growing a little too much, that we needed another partner. Partner. So we, we partnered with a label, Cleopatra, out in LA. And in fact, uh, this Cleopatra still to this day, 20 years later, releases all the Judy Collins albums because they've done such a great job. Ah, so they do Judy's while Judy does everybody else's, is that correct? That's correct. Oh, brilliant. Yeah, so there's a, there's a label out here that does, um, more established artists and they re-record all their old material and just distribute that as well. So I think there's golden opportunities for people, but equally it's a tough market out there, isn't it? It is, it is, especially with labels. I mean, you— I think that many artists are moving to focus on streaming, uh, especially I. The one thing that your audience members won't know is that I spend most of my time in Norway, and the Nordics have been completely focused on streaming for the last 5 years. So there are no— there's no physical product, it doesn't exist except for vinyl. Yeah, vinyl is big and it's coming back, quite right, because you've got something and you can work on the COVID and the COVID is a piece of art and the vinyl itself is— it almost becomes a ritual, doesn't it? You take the vinyl out, you wipe it down with a cloth, you put it on the, you know, sort of on the piece of the cabinet, you know, and then you play it and you can actually sit and listen to it in a totally different setting rather than from your phone or whatever other sort of system you've got. I still love vinyl and I think, you know, lots of people are back into that, which I'm so pleased. So it gives everybody an option. Of how to listen to everything. Absolutely, the listening value is so amazing. And plus, for the artist, it gives them a tool to— they can, they can make it very— they could be very creative with their vinyl, uh, what— down to the color of the vinyl. But most, you know, they can design a package that they really want their fans to have. So it's, it definitely is a way for them to give back to their fans. Yeah, and it's also— they're more in control of their whole own creativity. Absolutely. Because, you know, sort of, I know that it sounded all fantastic, and I've watched Playlist, which was the development of Spotify, and, you know, they promised, uh, lots and lots of opportunities to music artists, but in the end, you know, the business side took over and the costs were too great, and music artists weren't getting the, uh, money and payment from Spotify that they thought they would get. And then it's down to the artist to promote themselves. How do you make sure that you're the one that is seen so that you can be heard on this layer, this portal, this platform that has millions of performers on it? And how do you stand out is a big art in itself, isn't it? It definitely is, it definitely is. And I don't think anybody has, outside of being on a major label, it's It's a tough world to navigate without a team around you. Yeah. And you do— do you have to do all the organizing of that side of it as well? As management, typically we work with how— which— whatever an artist is, if they are on a major label where we're working with the label. Many of our artists have their own labels, so we're helping them work, talk to their digital distributor, and that's how they sort of pitch for things like Spotify playlists. Aha. So there's so much more to know and so much more to understand that people who are receiving this on the receiving end of music, when they go through their Spotify or what, you know, even if they were using iTunes, or when it's on YouTube, you've got to make sure that you've got a video. And some people think that's enough, but it's not. So you're quite— you're quite— or you and the style of work you represent is absolutely paramount to an artist, isn't it? I think so. I absolutely— I think you're, you're very— you're correct. And I— we try to find artists that mirror our hope and expectation for them. So we want to find artists that are interested in the new mediums, who want to be on TikTok, who want to be on Instagram, who want to pitch for Spotify and will work with us to help give the tools we need to make to help their visibility. Yeah, and that is crucial. So let's just flip back a little bit, go back to your parents. What did your parents do? Oh, my mother still to this day works in a jewelry shop, and my father is now a retired military general. Ah, so tell me about them, because where did you learn your skills? Was it from your— was it from both parents, and which ones did you learn from whom? You know, I think that, that I, I clearly I have, um, if I guess if you ask my husband and my artist, I'm pretty organized and I have a lot of drive. So I'm going to say that comes from the general, but the other side I think comes from my mother. And we actually live next to our, um, my mother's parents. So I had my grandparents in my life up through, through high school. They literally lived next door to us, which was just wonderful. And I think that I learned a lot of empathy and the ability to, to have conversations with people and to, to listen with, through, by my, from my grandparents. And what did they do? Oh, my, my grandfather worked at a paper mill and my grandmother was a secretary. But they both, you know, came of that era where they were— they could retire early. So when I knew them as a young person, they were both retired. But they, as you say, you had somebody else. Do you think it's— I actually, let me just preface this. I hear a lot of stories in my therapeutic sessions, and I'm not a full-time therapist, but I love my work. And I hear of people who've almost been saved in their family, and that doesn't mean that the parents are terrible, It's just if parents are busy or something else is going on, they've almost been saved by their grandparents, or they learn a skill from their grandparents that they wouldn't otherwise learn, or they learn to cook through their grandparents. Because grandparents have got that slight distance, that slight— the less emotional tension, but also the joy. They understand the joy of a young one. And it sounds as if you got that as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I had great parents, as you just mentioned, but I had even— I had just amazing grandparents and they were there and they had the time, which was, you know, that's, that's a remarkable resource, having the time and proximity. I lived, as I mentioned, next door to them so we could just walk across the yard there. So, so I think that It gave them a chance to— and they were in a different phase of life than my parents, so, so they— it just, it just blossomed for me, and they were very helpful in terms of me growing into the person I am now. Yeah, but also you've got this ability to manage. Now, your father being a military general is, wow, very high-powered, and also he would be able to make decisions because you make decisions. Don't you? I do, and I can make fast decisions. Exactly. I don't like to beat around the bush. As I perceive, your father was the same. Did you have to do that with him? Was he quite exacting when you spoke about things? Oh, at times, absolutely, at times. Yeah. And, um, how was it when you were doing your schoolwork? Were you just a natural at school as well? I, I was very good at school, and I had no problems, uh, studying on my own. I was quite self-motivated. To the point where I actually enrolled myself. I got myself a scholarship as a teenager to a British boarding school. So, so it was, um, I've always been quite keen on, on sort of learning. Yes, but also if you do that, you know, I— how old were you at that age? Uh, I was 15. Yeah, so it's quite, you know, what I find quite interesting is how much young people, young teenagers, know about life or what they want from life if they're given an opportunity to blossom, if they're not dampened by the pressure of their lives, external lives. Often people make a decision towards their life that they— this is it, this is who I'm going to be, this is what I want to do, I can take control of my life. I can do this and I can do that. And it's quite remarkable how quickly and how early these decisions can be made. And clearly in your case, it was absolutely the right decision as well. Yes, I mean, I really lucked out when I went to boarding school. I, I have to tell you, I didn't really like British boarding school, but that's besides the point. That's interesting. What was it? What, what was missing for you? Um, it was a little too— I wasn't used to the, uh, It was very regimented in a way that I am regimented, but I'm— I can— I can— it's guided by my own sense of regimen, like, of own order. There I had to adhere to somebody else's sense of order, and so that was a little tricky for me. But I very much lucked out, and I met— it was my first sort of introduction to the music business, so it was almost a precursor. I, I ended up meeting this wonderful couple who were into the— were into blues. And that was my sort of first sort of— it wasn't my aha moment because I didn't really put it together until later. But my first concerts I went to, they took me to concerts in London. It was really sort of an awakening to there was more out there in the sort of world of entertainment. Were you aware of how easily you made decisions? Oh, back then, no, I, I don't think so. No. And I think that often happens with people. So as they come to me in therapy, what I often do is identify with people who they are. You know, this is what I see that you can do. Do you know that you can do this? Look what you've done as a pattern throughout your life. And it's quite fascinating that people just— of course they're not aware. I'm not saying that they should be and they've missed something. No, it's just that you know, people often start the patterns of their future, uh, quite early on. I mean, there's that saying, you know, show me a man to the age of— show me a child to the age of 7 and I'll show you a man. I think it really starts coming alive as teenagers and what people are really able to do. I mean, I ran a social action group at 17, and I found— I found details of that the other day, and I used to put on shows at 13 and 14. So, you know, these are things that you end up doing in your your life. And you don't realize that that is something that's born within you. And if you're in the right sort of garden, if you like, psychological garden, you can actually blossom. And this can happen. But, you know, a little bit of difficulty and a little bit of a struggle can make life a little, you know, sort of is necessary. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I, I wouldn't change my path to, to save my life. I was on the path of being an art historian, and I couldn't imagine in my life being in art history. As much as I love it as a pastime and an interesting thing when I travel, it's not something I could ever make a career out of. No, and it's interesting because it was your parents' divorce that made you look into getting a job, into something that would provide you financially. But because you had your abilities, the ones to, you know, organize, to make decisions, you actually found something that's become your career. But had that struggle not happened in your life, that moment where you're thinking, oh my goodness, what am I going to do now, that you would never be where you are today. No, I would be at a medieval church someplace. Not a bad thing, but still interesting. So I suppose your journey around the world is much more interesting because you could go to all these places. And you know, that's quite fascinating. And let's talk a little bit about language. I really want to get into that, and you can talk because you're a mother and a wife and you have to negotiate so many areas. But let's start the conversation with your production of something, a theatre production called 'Mute'. But I also want to say that Judy Collins did the song "Send in the Clowns." That was Stephen Sondheim. Yes, yes. So that was a theater number as well. Yeah, yep, it was one of her biggest hits, and I think she has one of the most beautiful versions of that song. Absolutely, yep. I've seen it on stage, and you always, always hear Judy's version in your head, and you always compare it to Judy's because it is such a profound song. And that's the difference between theatre and, you know, other music. It has a different tenet to it. But tell us about Mute and why you chose this piece to produce. Absolutely, absolutely. So we have a theatre production called The Mute, and what it is, it's a silent love story, which is just remarkable. It is the story of a man and a woman named Tom and Jenny Yes, it's a play on words. And Tom and Jenny, they— we follow their lives from when they first meet to the arc of their romance. And not to spoil anything, you know, they have— like all romances, there's always some moment, or often there's a moment where you question your romance. And sometimes there's even a person that comes in that obsessed with the romance, and again, I don't want to spoil too much of it, but the story follows the arc of Tom and Jenny. And what's so interesting about this piece is that when the creators, Christian Erikson and Yunova Ottosson, came to us, they wanted to do a production where they've removed language, and they wanted to explore What would happen? What do you do with that void? How do you fill that void? So how they filled the void of no words is that they have an orchestra on stage. Orchestra plays everything you hear, plays the street noise, plays the raindrops, plays the bar crowd when Tom and Jenny are at the little cafe and he's about to propose to her. And the, the two actors who play the lead are the most incredible physical actors. So if you think of a modern-day Charlie Chaplin, this is sort of the vein of this. And it was such a unique experience for theatergoers in Norway that in 2019, right before the pandemic, it won the best Best Show of the Year. It won Best Costuming and Best Staging. And it's so exciting for me as a producer because we can take this now around the world because there is absolutely no language barrier. No, and I saw you kindly sent me just a little preview, and that's what I thought, and that's the masterful approach that it has. It almost brings those old silent movies to life. And it's also like, you know, Gene Kelly or Fred Astaire and Ginger on the stage, or Gene Kelly with his partner on stage. And I love that sort of music, I love that sort of movement and music and art and dance that actually is so expressive, and yet it's incredibly difficult to do. So I know some mime artists that used to perform in opera because there are artists that are the— they don't sing, they're not part of the choir, but they are part of the actors, the silent actors on stage in opera. Absolutely. They've learned in Europe mostly because mime is very big in Europe but not quite so much over here. But I do think what the joy is of what you've produced is that it will appeal to any nationality. It crosses all those barriers, doesn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. And right now, since it's still quite complicated to get in and out of China, they are actually playing the film version of The Mute in theaters so people can see it. And the hope is that in 2025, that people like the Shanghai Orchestra will— excuse me, the Shanghai Symphony will then redo the production in, in real life. So, so we're, we're making steps to, to take it around the world. And how long does it take to prepare? Because you do have this amazing orchestra on stage, and to have an orchestra per se on stage is phenomenal in its own right. Absolutely, absolutely. So I, I'm going to answer your question, I think, a little differently. So When we started this production, we started in 2015 and it took us 3 years to create. And then we partnered with the Stavanger Symphony Orchestra here in Norway. But now that we have it, now that we have all the pieces, we could go into different cities around the world and set up within 2 to 3 days. It's not a complicated setup. So do you then bring in the orchestra from each country, or does the orchestra travel with the production? We are going to be using localized orchestras from each country. Yeah, it's phenomenal, isn't it? Absolutely. And it's wonderful because it also gives the people, say, let's say Australia, they want to hear the, you know, they want to go to the Sydney Opera come to the Opera House and hear the Sydney Orchestra. They don't want us to bring an orchestra in. So I think it's a win-win for each market. Yeah, do you take the artists— what do you— are they actors? How do you perform? Are they actors? Are they dancers? How do you turn— Well, they're actors. So there's 3 actors in this piece. And the cast, we're going to bring them to most places. But for example, in China, we're going to use a local cast, so a group of a Chinese cast. Lovely. And we know how brilliantly talented— and in fact, in Russia, that would be another place that they are so brilliantly talented, aren't they? Regardless of what else is going on in all these countries, the artistry is phenomenal. Absolutely. To watch them do their own version. And do they add a little bit of their culture to it? That's a very interesting question. I think that the production itself will not change, but for example, we would probably use a key actor from, say, if we were going into France, somebody who was known in France. So, no, we won't— they won't be bringing in their own culture, but they will have people, an actor that they know. Yeah, that's going to be quite amazing. And as I say, you know, having watched just the clips that you've sent me, which is amazing, it's one of those that will be enjoyed by every member of the family. Absolutely. There's no barrier, is there? No, it's definitely a family piece, although, you know, it's not a child's piece, but it is a family-friendly, uh, production. And it runs for 70 minutes, so it's not long. There's no intermission. There's a wonderful little holiday scene at the end, a Christmas scene, so it kind of feels like it should be sort of seen in the wintertime. We're hoping it becomes a perennial and every— people go see it more than once a year. Yeah, because I'm sure you can do all sorts of things you'll add to it, you know, to make it rich, more rich in just the stage set. Oh, things to it. Yes, yes, and we're already talking about doing sort of a second version, you know, not necessarily the same production but something inspired by this production because it's gone so well. So, um, mute. I come back to the point of conversation, association, managing, talking. How do you ask the right question? I mean, therapy is all— psychodynamic psychotherapy is all about the relationship, and the relationship happens at times without words, but mostly is the right words, the right conversation, the right term, the right message. Am I understanding this person? How do you manage all of that? Because let's start with your relationship to the artists and Apart from Judy, you've got other artists which you've just mentioned. Are you different with each of them? I think the answer is yes to that. I think that everybody's different with every relationship. I think the core of me is always the same. I don't think I'm very different in personality, but I— where it's different is that each artist needs something different. Like, they might need more time, they might want to have a lot of coffees, they might want to talk through the process. Another artist just wants the facts, like, okay, here's the plan, okay, let's, let's go with the plan. So it's, it's very specific to the, the artist's personality. And how do you manage that inside your own head? Do you have to be? So if somebody was saying to you, how do I become you? Which is, um, you know, a big, a big ask because you're so supersonic. As I say, you're a mother, you're a wife, you travel, you look after some very talented artists. So if they were to become you, what gifts would they need to become you? Um, well, I think that you have to be flexible You also have to know when something's not working. A lot of— there, there's a lot of— I like to call dating with art, and it kind of feels like dating. And sometimes it takes a year, sometimes it takes two, but you shouldn't go longer than two years without knowing if it's going to work or not work, quite frankly, in my opinion. So there's a lot of that. I like to I like to— when I'm thinking of working with an artist, there is a time period where I will say, okay, well, here's what we're going to do for an agreed amount of time. And if we hit our goals or we both feel that the expectations are being met— and it's a two-way streak, it's not just a one-way streak, because I also have to be happy with the relationship with the artist. It can't just be a one-way thing because I spend my time and my energy and my thoughts on them, I want to also get a really positive sort of response. So, so it takes a while. So I think to answer your question, uh, I think you need to be able to be flexible. Uh, you need to, uh, you need to be able to read a person to kind of see what they need, um, and be consistent with, with giving them what they need. If they need a phone call every week or every couple of days you do that, you know, that's what you have to do. How do you work it out? In terms of scheduling? No, how do you work out whether somebody needs a phone call or not? I mean, when I was running my comedy clubs, I had 16 comedy clubs, and at times there, on each night when the comedians were performing, I would have 4 or 5 comedians. Sometimes those acts would change, so they weren't one show that would move from one place to another, and I would have to manage them. I would have to phone them regularly. Obviously then when it grew I had staff, but basically it was like I would make a number of phone calls to keep them on track. How do you decide who needs phone calls and who doesn't? What's your decision-making process? And the decision make— for me, as I prioritize, I don't prioritize in the sense that some artists are more important than others. I prioritize about what's happening around the artist. So if, say, one has a release happening or one's in the middle of a project, they will tend to get the sort of higher priority at the moment than somebody sort of in a more creative phase where they're not necessarily active. So, so that's how I prioritize. So, um, How do you deal with sensitive issues? So you've now taken on an artist, or you're just deciding. How do— what language do you use if you— if it's not working out? What do you say? I try to be as clear as possible. I'm— I don't enjoy being so forthright, but I think you have to be in these kind of situations. And you can't— if you're going to close the door or say something's not working. I think you have to come out and say it clearly and be understood and ask for feedback. But just, I think you need to, to approach it like a Band-Aid. You have to sort of rip it off and say what you need to say, hear it back, and come to some sort of mutual understanding of what makes you both feel good. Give us an idea of the words you might use. Oh, that's a, that's a good one. I think what I would say in some of these kind of circumstances, if it's not working out, you know, how do we, how do you see this, you know, what would be your best, what would be the best outcome for you right now? Because you don't seem happy and I don't feel like you're happy. 'What should we do?' My suggestion would be, 'We've tried very hard, we've accomplished this, but I think that the next steps would be better off dealt with by somebody else that fits you more like a glove.' And how perfect is that? I'm sure people listening to this will have that as a takeaway. They will actually write it down. Do you know, you'd be surprised, something that you take for granted, and that's why I'm being specific about the script, how much a script is so useful as a starting point for people. People can struggle and become anxious about what are the words I say. I often give scripts, and when I was working, I give scripts to clients, by the way, as a starting point. When I was working and I was dealing with lots of people in the audience who'd get drunk, who were very occasionally rowdy, so you'd get sort of out of all the years I was doing it and go in and I would split up on very rare occasions fights. Sure. And things like that is what do you say, but I would give my staff scripts to begin with and then they would make it their own. And I think what you've actually given there is just a very good starting point that you take for granted because that's who you are and what you do so well. And then now you're working with artists what happens when they get into a problem state? Like, there was a, um, a film made not too long ago of a therapist that traveled around with— sorry, it may have been made a while back— but a therapist that traveled around with a group that were struggling and, uh, going through their own problems. How do you deal with that when people are not getting on? How do you negotiate those relationships? Well, I mean, we've— I've had tours where personalities and things like that haven't worked. It hasn't been the artists on stage. It's been conflicts with sort of artists and other people within the sort of the touring group. So oftentimes I try to, you know, try to either come up with a solution, and sometimes that solution is to swap out one of the people on the tour with somebody who is a little more agreeable. It can be as simple as that. But, you know, we have dealt with artists who have had struggles with drugs and alcohol, and that's a, that's a complicated one because, as you know yourself as a therapist, there's not much we can do to help them if they're not willing to get help themselves. So we've had an artist on our roster for a while who had struggled with drugs and alcohol and finally went into rehab, and now we have decided to sort of bring them back into the fold, and that was our deal. We said, you know, if you do this and you get your life on a path that you're happy with, then come back and talk to us. So that has happened, and we're very happy with that. Do you know, I absolutely agree. I did the same with a number of our performers. That I kept the door open, and I think that's a really generous, constructive way to deal with artists, because they know if you're brutal and you bring down the sword and you close the gate and the drawbridge comes up, there's a resentment that builds up, and sometimes that can affect their recovery. But most of my artists, if we said, look, you know, things are going wrong, take time out, fix it, come back when you're ready, they often do. And it's happened to you as well, hasn't it? Yeah, and it's— it's— it— I agree. I— first of all, I think it's the, the best way to approach a specific problem like that. Um, I think it's the most humane way to, to deal with a problem like that. But I also think it's helpful for the person who is struggling to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, uh, you know, if they are making the steps that makes them feel good. So, so that's— I think it's the right thing to do. Totally. And, uh, yet in many other businesses they don't do that. And I think, you know, so I often talk to people in, in their business that they can set up their business to work for everybody's benefit. So that's why I'm really keen to know that you're— that you can explore with me and tell people about your— how you successfully manage people that can be, you know, it's very sensitive, it can be volatile, the areas you're in. You know, there's a lot of pressure on a performer to go on stage. So for example, I always felt for Amy Winehouse when you saw her in her last days where she was performing and she was really, you know, had taken too much drink and too many drugs, and it was so sad. She was so vulnerable on stage. She needed somebody with strength to actually fight her corner and to look after her. How do you feel about that? Is that the type of thing you can do as well? I hope so. I hope I could do that, and I think I could do that for one of our artists. We— I think we've gone down that path, my husband and I, with our artists, and it takes a long time. Like, we're not— this is not an issue that goes away in a year. It can take a decade, and you have to patience. So, so, um, I, I— your Amy Winehouse example brings me to— over the weekend I went to see The Libertines, and it's so wonderful to see Pete. Yeah, they're sober, and it just, it just made me smile because he seems so happy and he looked so incredibly healthy. Yeah, because he's remarried, hasn't he? He's married And he's clean and sober, which is fantastic. And it's one of those— I saw him going down the path of Amy Winehouse, and I'm glad he's not that story. Yeah, and it's such an important part. That's why I wanted to talk to you, wanted to interview you. You don't realize yourself because you are who you are. Um, how much of an impact you make on other people. To have the best manager— I mean, Russell Brand had a manager that locked him into his room for 3 days to help him get off drugs, and he actually says, this is my manager that actually stopped me from killing myself, you know. And the role that you play is absolutely vital. But we haven't got long, so I do want to ask you, how do you switch then from being a manager, touring, coming home and being a mum? How do you switch languages to being a mum language or a wife language? You said you and your husband work together. We do, we do. So the— we navigate that pretty well, my husband and I, Ivan. He— so we have times where we have like a no work zone policy in terms of dinner conversations and things like that. Although, you know, when you, when you, when this is your life and it is our life, it naturally gravitates to the occasional question. But we do try to put it aside on the weekends or when we're together. And for our little one, she's, it's just so, it's so easy to switch into mom mode. It's because it's something that I love and I'm a mother late in life. So I've actually have tweaked my professional life around her versus the other way around. So I don't travel as much as I do— used to. And it works. It totally works. And what's the best bit? How old is she? She's still very young though, isn't she? She's 7. She's 7. So she's a lovely age. Yeah. She really is. And does she love music? She does, she does. She's very intrigued that, you know, Mommy and Daddy don't really— but we have an office, of course, but she doesn't see us going to the office. She sees us going to theaters and to concerts and to festivals, and she thinks that that's, you know, our office. So it's so interesting because my children are a little bit older Uh, a lot older. And my music— my daughter's in the music industry, my son is in my other sort of industry, he's in marketing and healing. And they both used to come with me to work as well. I used to work from home as well at times, and then in the office. And, you know, people used to say, oh, you can't take your children to work, and there's this big sort of question over it. I think it was the best thing I ever did. Oh, I agree, I agree. I, I flew with my little one until she was 3 years old. We were going to the States because at the time we had a couple of big tours. She flew back and forth with me. I had her in her little like carrier and or on the, in the backpack, and we just went. And I, I planned it out and, and she doesn't remember any of it, but that's okay, you know. Yeah, she does in a sort of more, let's say, pre-verbal way. You think they don't, but it's in those early foundational parts of the mind. The psyche that you have made an impact. And that is exactly it, you know, that foundational— yes, you're here, you're with me, with me, I'm taking you with me, I look after you. So you are phenomenally well organized. So talk as a mum to other mums or dads who are looking after their children, you know, you— because you're naturally well organized. And is that what it takes to be organized, to look after babies when you work? I think it, I think it does. Somebody needs to be, because my husband keeps everything in his head, as a lot of people do, and I, one of my tasks is to get it out of his head and into our master schedule. What's happening? So I think that if you have a partner who, I think somebody, it doesn't matter which partner it is, needs to be organized if you have two working parents and an active child or children active these days, and they, they're doing sports. And yeah, so, uh, coming back to that point again about, uh, partnerships as well, uh, it's also somebody who's more gifted in one area actually taking on that role. You mean in terms of organizing, or— Yeah, because you, as you said, that your husband doesn't, you know, sort of, he keeps a lot in his head, but somehow that came out of your relationship, did it, that you took on the organisational ability? Absolutely, absolutely. In fact, in his wedding speech, he said he made references to the lists I make, so which made everybody laugh. So he knew right away what he was getting when he met me. Yeah, but isn't that wonderful that you complement each other? You know, I also do psychological types when I do my work, and the list is the J element, which they call judging, but you're not judging, you're actually just organized. And if you can find a partner that will allow you to bring out the best of yourself, you can really help each other and balance each other. And I do think a lot of couples struggle because one doesn't allow the other to just take over that role. Yeah, I, I think that we've— it's taken us a while. We've been married for almost 10 years now, but, uh, we, we, we are okay with the roles that we're, we are now in, and, and the ones that I take the lead on or he takes the lead on. It's, it's worked out well. Yeah, and I think that that takes time, doesn't it? It takes time. It takes patience, and you have to negotiate. I mean, marriages nowadays, if both partners are working, is a means of negotiation. And trying to negotiate without losing your temper too much or getting frustrated too much— frustration is going to happen, you know, they— you know, that's your boundary. Or when you get angry, you know, that's the boundary, as children do. So then you've now got to talk it through. Yeah. So that's amazing, Catherine. You've given us such a great insight to your life as a Thank you. Well, a really modern woman. But before we go, can you just go through your artists and what they're doing? Because we're just finishing, and I'd just like everybody to know, should they want to contact you or look on their website, where do they go? You bet, you bet. Well, our company is called Artist Vision, and we're at artist.vision. And I'll just go through a few of them because, uh, there's a couple that are actively working right now. Um, Tuva Band, she's she has a new album coming out in January called New Orders. Uh, we have a classical crossover artist named Tomina Mikkalina, and we're so excited because she's on Calabro's Farewell Tour. And one of our other darling artists is named Fai Vildhagen. She's signed to Warner Music, and she's currently writing her, her next album. So we're, we're hoping upon hope that that will come out in late 23. So I know I'm missing others, and they're all so wonderful, but I won't— you can look on the website and see if anybody else sort of piques your interest. Yeah, amazing. But I do think that, you know, thank you so much for giving us this view of your work, because I do know how important you are. And thank God that you're so well organized, because it is so crucial for artists who sometimes just lose their way. So, um, I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. This is Your Mind Matters. And Catherine DuPaul, just an amazing modern woman, thank you so much for joining in this conversation.