Your Mind Matters – Lauren Waller, My Music And My Depression

Jung created a topology or spatial framework for our psyches in terms of archetypes within the various agencies of our mind, the agencies being the conscious, personal unconscious, and collective unconscious. The archetypes, or symbolic primitive mental images, reside within us all. These symbolic images help explain and contextualize for the therapist and client which area is activated and how they affect our thinking, feeling, and actions. I think the major archetypes in Jung's theory are the shadows, the self, the persona, the anima, and animus. These profoundly deep and psychological theories should be taught to everyone, and that's why I do these interviews. To explain within the context of each individual person's internal struggles for identity. Because frankly, without an identity or pathway or recognition, we all become lost and can fall into the abyss of nothingness, as Jung called it, the pleroma, that deep dark recess of the world where we just totally get lost. And lots of people getting lost today. And as a psychotherapist, I deal with that every single time I go into therapy with somebody. So we all aim for identity, and in our world today, it is more apparent that the fight to be seen and to be known is explicit. Before, people used to hide that side of themselves. They would do something that was important. Now it's just enough to be seen, and social media is the medium, and our internal drive is the intention. When we are born, we're given an identity, a name. Our identity defines us within our family and helps cohesion and belonging. During the formative years, the child is taught their own value. The mother or the carer reflects back to the baby the value of their existence. I have reminded people very often that if a baby is not given feedback or tender loving care, the brain wiring struggles to develop, or in many cases doesn't develop at all. The brain is left with a black area. A parent's love is shown by response to a baby's cry. The parent responds— the parent's response will tell the baby that they're being heard and that they are important. They encourage the child to learn mental and physical skills, physical skills like walking, talking, climbing, and building. The child internalizes the goodwill of the parent or the caretaker. The ability to make choices and develop their own creativity often stems from that early age when they paint or create something, often as a gift for the parent. Does this have value for the parent or is it being dismissed? The ability to create is unique and within us all. How we express that is a matter of developing skills, just as cooking is or gardening. All great creatives spend time on their creative hobby, which it is until they can monetize it. A comedian, a musician, a singer-songwriter has to spend hours honing their craft in their own time. I have seen many wonderful performers who through their dedication create the most beautiful work, but it is during this apprenticeship that the internal, often contradictory, intrapsychic voices debate. Do I continue? Am I good enough? How do I value my work? Does anybody else value my work and how? These are questions when the creative or anyone falls into the liminal world between uncertainty and success ask of themselves. My guest today is Lauren Wallen, a young singer-songwriter in Los Angeles, and she's in Los Angeles at the moment, so it's very early there, and she's heading for the top. She's heading for a brilliant career, but what does she feel? How does she cope with the uncertainty? How does she juggle the process? And how does she make decisions? Well, let's find out. So welcome, Lauren, and thank you for getting up so early in Los Angeles to come on to this interview. How are you today? Not a problem at all. I do so well. It's a really— I'm really just excited to be here. Oh, that's fabulous. Now, Lauren, what's your background? You're, you're young, but you're established enough, so you're not a sort of 16-year-old which most record companies avoid. Not because they're not good, it's just that they know that life changes so much that they may change their mind and their direction. But you're still young in terms of a singer-songwriter. Give us a bit of your background and how you got into that world? Sure. Um, I honestly didn't even start— it's funny that you say you're not a 16-year-old artist. I didn't even start singing in front of people until I was 17. I have always been surrounded by music. I grew up in doing choirs, and my father is a hobbyist musician, and he always had music on in the house. So music was very much a part of my life, but I was also incredibly shy. So I never really felt confident enough to start singing in front of people. And then one day I kind of just said, "I think I want to audition for something. I think I want to do like a school performance." And it was like that moment my parents both were like, "Oh my gosh, like you have this hidden talent that we didn't even know about." And I really started to focus on music after that. I got really excited about performing and about my own music and everything kind of just took off from there. Ah, fabulous. And what made you realize that you wanted to get into this? Was it because you were surrounded with music? Did your parents encourage you? Yeah, I mean, they honestly, they did not know when I first said, okay, I want to audition and start singing. They didn't know that I could sing. They hadn't really heard me. I always say, it's so funny, when I was younger, I think I was 6 years old, my brother and I, we both grew up playing the piano, and he told me one time, he's like, you know, Lauren, you can't sing. And he just was making fun of me. And as it turns out, he can't sing, and I think that's why he told me that. And so that projection— yes, yes. Yeah. And I was like— and I— so I still make fun of him to this day for something that I'm holding on to from when I was 6 years old. Um, but it, it really just was I can't even blame him completely because I was super shy when I was younger. But my friends were really encouraging in school and my choir teacher was as well. So I thought, okay, I want to start this. And then after I told my parents, like, I think I really want to focus on music, they were so absolutely encouraging. And I used to play with— my dad has a band and I used to play with his band and do cover songs. And that just— I'm It was just a really fun experience for me. I'm really close with both my parents, and so I enjoyed getting to hang out and have this like fun, cool experience with my dad playing shows. Ah, but when you were very, very young, what were your— how did you express your creativity? As you know, it's so interesting that all babies, all children express creativity, don't they? Right. Paint or whatever you give them. I mean, my kids used to play in the kitchen eternally. Mixing things and putting them on paper and just messing around. And that's all part of their, you know, sort of re-representation of themselves in another medium, because it's quite self-reflective, isn't it, the whole process of creativity? What did you do, do you remember? Yeah, I, um, I actually was an artist, um, painter for many, many years. I, um, wish— I honestly wish that I still did it, um, but I loved drawing and painting, and I eventually started doing oil painting, and I would duplications of like the masters, like the Vincent van Goghs and the Monets and the Manets. Yeah, I would duplicate their photos. And that really was— I was always known as the artist in my family. Ah, how lovely. And so do you still paint as well? So you're a natural. I see. I wish I did. It's— you know what it is? It's a little bit of an expensive hobby. Yes, it is. It is for sure. I definitely— I'll still draw. And I actually, I ended up going to college or university for, for theater. And so I did not act, but I did production and design, back, like backstage stuff. And I actually discovered that I really enjoyed painting these larger-than-life sets, and I, I have gotten to do that in my early adulthood. But, uh, no, I honestly, I wish I painted more, but I don't. No, no, but that might happen later because The reality of life is you've only got so much time in the day, and when people say that, you know, oh, you know, lots of people get bored, don't they? I can't understand that, because when you are creative, you make things happen. There is not one creative I know that doesn't have to do the work. You have to put in the time, don't you? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, you're now experiencing— you— when did you write your first song? What was that like? Did you, and when did you perform? What was that feeling? I probably didn't. See, I always, I always say, I don't really know. I didn't really start writing until I was 18 or, yeah, 18 years old. But when I look back at kind of like just journaling that I used to do as a little kid, there's definitely aspects of lyrics or something, and I just didn't even realize what I was doing. But so the first, first time that I sat down and was like, okay, I'm going to write music, um, I was about 18 years old and It actually all started as I wanted to give my mom a gift of my songs. And so that's like kind of, it was one of those things where I was like, I don't know if I'm going to be good at this, but I could give my mom this nice thing and she's my mom, so she's gonna love whatever I give her anyways. And it turns out I just absolutely fell in love with songwriting after that. But do you think it's because you live in LA? And in LA, everybody is, you know, sort of creative. Everybody has, you know, wants to be in Hollywood, or is that just an English take? You know, so you go into a cafe and somebody's serving tables and you think, oh no, they really want to be an actress, or they want to be a comedian, or they want to be something else. Do you think you live in the right place and, you know, so it's quite natural to be an artist in some way? Yeah, definitely. I think, I think I have been really advantaged in that fact, um, and the fact that it is a little bit more normalized. Normalized than I guess if I was living in the middle of the country, my parents probably would be like, okay, what are you doing? I think it is, it definitely is normalized and it's definitely, I have to respect and admire anybody who is either from Los Angeles or who's coming to Los Angeles chasing a dream because it takes, it takes a lot of perseverance to to keep up with it. And I never, I never wanted to start songwriting or, or singing or performing, um, with— I, I never wanted the— I don't know, it's weird to say you want the recognition, but I never wanted like that stereotypical 'I'm chasing fame.' That's— I'm not really interested in that. I'm more interested in getting to share my story and connecting with people. And what was your first song? What was the theme of your first song? Uh, well, most of my first music all surrounds from— because I was 18 when I was writing them, so it was all about when I was, you know, a teenager. I, I like to tell stories, and a lot— I mean, all of it, basically the inspiration comes from my life. And, um, I struggled with a lot of like heavier topics when I was in, um, when I was a teenager. I struggled with depression and I struggled with really severe social anxiety, and I wanted to kind of explore those themes, um, and explore self-love and self-worth. And so that's kind of— that's honestly the first few songs that I wrote. That's basically what they all surrounded on. And can you remember— I know this might be— sound like a weird question— can you remember some of the lines that would express that? Yeah, um, definitely. There's one song that comes to mind immediately, and it's song called Blame and the very first lyric I think is people change, they never stay the same and people leave. And that was really about a feeling of transition in life, leaving high school and teenage years and moving on into a university setting and struggling with differing friendships and relationships and just trying to figure out like where where my place was in the world. And that kind of is what inspired that song. Ah, and so this is interesting, isn't it, that from my perspective, and perhaps for the listeners, you can come from the most supportive family and you can still end up with depression? Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, so that there you are, you're a good-looking young woman, you've got talent, and yet, do you know— and social anxiety you said you had Do you know now, in looking back on it, what precipitated that? What happened? I appreciate you saying you're a good-looking girl, but I mean, teenage me would wholly disagree. That kind of is what happened. I became incredibly insecure. I mean, I was— it's hard enough being like a teenager, let alone being a teenage girl, and also having these influences of living so close to Los Angeles where I mean, while there are a lot of like beautiful things that you can aspire to be in Los Angeles, there's also a lot of just dark, like darker and sadder, like expectations that society places on being a young woman. And I just was so incredibly insecure about everything. I was insecure about the way I looked and I was— that in turn made me insecure about just who I was as a person. And I kind of always felt like a little bit of an outsider, even though— and I had wonderful friends at the same time. I had a wonderful family and I had wonderful friends, but sometimes, you know, once it gets in your head, you can't really shake it that easily. Yeah, and this— you're not the first person I've spoken to like this because, as I say, you are striking looking. And I think, uh, we all fall into the social media trap. And I mentioned social media, and my, you know, I've got interviews coming up with social media, uh, sort of people who deal in social media. And the biggest problem— everybody uses filters, don't they? So, and When you were at school, was there— was it from school? Was it social media? Was it from the outside? What was it? LA, the whole existence in LA is to be gorgeous and glamorous and fabulous. Where do you think it came from? Because I think you can't just blame LA because it happens over here, but where do you think it stemmed from? I, I think I was in a very interesting position because of my age. Like, I was in high school and I remember Instagram coming out And so I really was born into the age of, of social media and social media standards. And that, like, I don't know, it was definitely— I definitely was in the age of everybody was fixing the way they looked on, on pictures and absolutely throwing all the filters on. And it really just leaves you with this You're just confused because you're like, what do people actually look like and what am I supposed to look like? So I definitely think social media, uh, definitely affected that. Um, but I mean, you don't need just social media to be insecure, you know. It's— I think it was just a combination of, of who I was as a person and kind of being a little bit— because I was so anxious and because I was so insecure, like a little bit I guess, is more vulnerable. And I think that happens, you know, the whole point in growing up. I specifically talked about being young, so I always sort of imagine life— I, when I try to give a metaphor for life and who people are, so a child is born and they're like a sort of wonderful flower that hasn't blossomed, and the parents are like the petals, and the petals eventually come away towards teenage years. And this— suddenly this flower explodes, and you don't really know what the flower is going to be till it starts showing itself. And that's teenage years. And the reality is most children come into their own potentially at teenage years. They start saying, well, this is me, but who am I? So that whole dilemma that young people have nowadays is much more, um, yeah, much more exposed to the outside forces than ever before. You know, of how they look. And it's the worst time to be questioning how you look, isn't it? Yeah, because you are developing. And I guess, I mean, you just saying that, I also— there was another point in my life where I just felt so unsure about who I was because I actually— and I try to be really open about this now, but I was diagnosed with polycystic ovarian syndrome, which PCOS for short, and that's a chronic lifelong condition. It's incurable. And I was diagnosed with that when I was 15 or 16 years old. And I used to be so ashamed of that. I never ever wanted to tell anybody that I had this condition. Um, I, I really just think I was embarrassed of it because, I mean, this is like, people, you, you immediately say like, oh, I have, I have like this lifelong condition that's not going to go away, and people automatically kind of have preconceived notions about it. And so that really just also added on to my fear of judgment and fear or insecurities where I was like, I don't, I don't want people to know that I have this. And then I thankfully have realized later on in my life, I think it's so important to talk about. I think it's important to talk about mental health. I think it's important to talk about physical health like this because I've been able to meet friends now who, who also have this same condition. And there's a lot of camaraderie in being able to find that community and talk to other people who may be going through the same thing as you. And I was— I didn't have that when I was 16. I was kind of young to be diagnosed with this. So I really just felt alone. And as it turned out, I had a friend who just didn't know that she also had this condition at the same time. But it's really nice being able to form a community later on. I didn't know we were going to talk about this, but can I ask you to explain what it is for those people who really don't know? Yeah, it's, um, it's a condition where you can form cysts on your ovaries, and the risk is obviously that they can burst, and that is an incredibly painful experience. Um, and there are other factors. They all— there's like a list of symptoms that you can have, and they look different on everybody else. Um, but for me, the reason why we found out is that I stopped getting my period. I got it maybe once or twice in my life, and then I just never got it again. And when I was— and I've since been able to be on treatment and, and seen specialists and got the treatment, so everything thankfully is working okay for me. But it just, it can affect your whole life, and you can have just some really horrible symptoms that are associated with it. And what's interesting, it's not It's not the most well-known condition. And so I think people really struggle to find a diagnosis to it. So as much as I can complain about, oh, like I have this condition, I think it's also really important for me to say, like, it's an absolute privilege to, to have this diagnosis just because there are so many barriers, barriers to access of health, at least in America. Like there are so many barriers. So the fact that I had parents who were able to take the time for the better part of a year and a half to find me this diagnosis and see specialists. Like, it really is. I'm— I think that I'm lucky to be able to understand what's happening in my body and be able to get the treatment I need. You know, Lauren, I'm so grateful to you to open up about that because there is so much about the female body that people just don't understand and they don't talk about it as much over here as you do in the States. And I know young women that are going through terrible times during their teenage years because of their menstrual cycle really having a profoundly deep effect on their world because it's not working. Things just aren't working well enough, and they have pain. It overwhelms them. Their hormones change. Everything's going crazy, and yet nobody talks about it, right? Ready to be a young, young girl. And then yes, things like this. Absolutely. So for you to actually talk about it is fantastic, and thank you, because, you know, I hear— I have some young clients that are going through a terrible time because of it. And of course, people don't understand hormones, and they talk about the female hormones, but we— every month there is a cycle, and the hormones are activated, and they're activated in one way or another. Now If you're lucky, they don't overwhelm you as a woman, but it's not the same for a man. And let— we're not talking about transgenderism and all the rest of it, or false hormones or anything like that. So let's put that to a side. We're literally talking about the woman who has her periods and how that can be overwhelming in itself. But you don't really want to sort of carry a badge to say, look, you know, I'm going through a difficult time. And I owned comedy clubs, so comedians used to talk about women and their behavior and In the old days, old comedians used to talk about that, but they never used to attribute it to something that was physical. And now I think fortunately it's coming out for the first time. Yeah, definitely. It's definitely— yeah, no, and that's fantastic that you're able to talk about it and actually explain to people what it is and how that sort of impact it can have on you as a young woman who is, as I say, you're good-looking, you're talented, And yet that alone would give anybody a hard time. So how did you get on with your work as well? Did you manage to concentrate and do all your studies as well? Uh, yeah, I actually, I was basically just a complete nerd. I love to learn, I love school, so that, that has never really been the issue for me is to focus on my studies. Um, I guess, I mean, definitely like it made things a little bit harder, like dealing with depression. Like, like you get to the point where you just, I don't want to do anything. But I thankfully have always really enjoyed learning and I really have always really just enjoyed school. So, so that thankfully was not an issue. And you did well. So there we are. You come out of school. Did you go to university? What's your next steps? Yeah. So I went to university. I went to Pepperdine, which is in Malibu. So I've always stayed. I've always lived in California. Virginia, um, basically in the same area. And that's where I studied theater production and design. And I actually recently made the decision to go back to school, and I'm going to, um, I'm pursuing a law degree. Yeah, because that's because I'm not busy enough. I love that. I totally love that. Now, a law degree with music. Now, they do say, um, when women have babies, you should play certain Baroque music because, uh, it enables that part of the mind. And mathematician— it helps with mathematics and it helps you learning and everything like that. But law, you cannot live without law nowadays. So I think it's a very smart idea. But tell me why you've chosen the law. I really just— because I've been working on music for so long and kind of running everything and trying to manage a business for myself, I think that it's so incredibly important to be as informed as possible. Um, I really love entrepreneurship, and I think that there's a lot to be learned from law school in that. And to be honest, it's because everything, everything in the music industry is a little complicated, um, when it's coming down to just any, any contract that you sign or music splits and all these different things. Like, I just I want to be as aware as possible and be able to equip myself to really, um, like do whatever I want to be able to do in my life. And I think that my music career can really, really benefit from me having that added knowledge. Oh, it's an amazing knowledge because I, uh, also, I mean, you know, sort of more a promoter in music. I always wanted to sing and everything. And in those days when I was singing, because I worked in the theater as well, it was, you had to have a certain sweet tone to your music, to voice. Now you can have a little bit more of an eclectic sound and voices don't have to be too spot on, that's for the theatre and so on. So it's quite an interesting world, but also every artist that signs a contract with a label also has to have their own legal representation, don't they? So to make sure that that artist is being represented correctly. And understands the legality of every single contract they sign. And there's so, as you say, so much in the music world to do with contracts. Everything you do has to have a contract practically, doesn't it? Right. Yeah. And that's both my parents. They actually are both lawyers, but neither of their specialization is in music. And so they said, they were like, why don't you like equip yourself to know as much as possible? Because like, that's how complicated everything is. Like, they're, they're, focus is actually in family law and divorce, so it's completely different than entertainment law. And I, I just never really realized how much effort needs to be put into— I mean, that's unfair to say. I know how much effort needs to be put in, but it really is. All these different fields of law are also different from one another. So I was like, okay, yeah, I think, I think that definitely to just better protect myself. And, and as I said, like, I love to learn. Like, I'm— I really am a lifelong learner. I, I love that too. I really understand. So that's the inspiration. But let me just explain for anybody listening about the music law. So it's very different to theater over here. I'm not sure if it's the same in the States, but here, if you are an actor— and I worked as an actor's agent and acted as well— if you are an actor, you have what's called an agent who will get you a job in, uh, theater or on television. And, um, film, and they will do the law, they will sign the contract, they will negotiate a contract for you which you countersign. But that is an agent over here. If you are in comedy, you have an agent, unless you're very big, again, who organizes all your performances, where you perform basically. If you're a musician, this is where the difference comes, you have both a manager and an agent. So the managerial role is much more hands-on, making sure that you arrive on time, all your equipment's there, you know, your guitar, the backline as they call it, and all the musicians are in place, and, you know, basically hand-holding much more. And then the agent organizes your tours and all your gigs. Is that the same in the USA? I think for the most part, yes. Um, obviously there can always be like just people handling different things or, or using different titles, but for the, for the most part, that, that does sound familiar. Yes. Yeah. So for you now to learn the law, as you say, there's so much to it because for you, uh, and go through all the legal aspects of being a musician. Tell everyone the legal aspects that you have to go through as a musician. I mean, you have to consider if you're writing music, are you writing with other people and what is that split going to look like? Because obviously then if you release the song, it goes into copyright law, it goes into like, yeah, copyright. So you're worried about copyright. You wanna be protected for that. If you're going to go play at a venue, you have to consider contracts between yourself as the artist and the venue. Payment for that, how many people that you are bringing in, just things like that to consider. When you are doing just photos, if you are hiring any— basically, if you're hiring anybody to do anything for you from music related or photos like album art or cover art or just photos for your website or video, you have to consider who is going to, at the end of the day, own that. And for the most— like, or, and, and how can other people use your work if you don't, you know, if you, if you're not really making sure like everything is good and happy and kosher, basically. Yeah, totally. So it's so interesting. So there you are. And let's go back a bit. In 2000, when the World Wide Web started taking over, as far as I understand, I don't know whether it was— who went into EMI and all the big record labels and said, look, we are going to do iTunes and we are going to put a lot of music on iTunes and we want to work with you as labels. And all the labels said, there's no way you can work with us, you know, we have got the upper hand, we are the powerhouses, which of course they were. Now a label is the one that will take you, do all your marketing, they pay very often for a performer in those days up until about 2008, and occasionally now they gave a performer an advance to do so many albums or so many singles now. But iTunes came in and there was this sort of transition period. So iTunes then morphed, has morphed into Spotify really, hasn't it? And people now do Spotify, which is sort of radio/itunes. And so the audience, uh, the performer was given this option, like, you don't need your— they were sort of tantalized away from the big labels. You don't need a label, you don't need this, and you don't need that, because you can record at home, you can record all your stuff yourself and then put it on Spotify, and you don't need a label, you don't need anybody else to look after you. Now, my— always my question about that is, where, if you're dealing with all that, do you find time to write? To produce, to make sure your song is okay, if you don't have that home, doesn't it actually create more stress, more anxiety? I mean, absolutely. I, instead of letting myself, because I learned when I was younger, I can become very easily overwhelmed. I've always tried to focus on just taking everything step by step and saying, and carving out time and I, I, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm like, okay, I have to write down what I'm doing basically every hour of the day. And if that helps me stay on track, that's what happens. But I always try to find any spare moment I can to write. I have been really trying to let go of perfectionism when it comes to my writing. Nothing needs to be perfect the first time you do it. So I don't think a song needs to be perfect the first time I take a stab at writing it. So if I have spare 5 minutes, I can sit down and I can write in the Notes app on my phone. Or if right before I go to sleep at night something pops in my head, I can— it's— this technology is just amazing. I can lean over and hum a melody or lyrics or anything into my voice recording app. And I just really— I— and that's all the things that you— all the things that we were talking about of balancing everything and having to be, especially as an independent and an artist being on top of all of that, that's the work. But getting to write and getting to explore themes and new creative ideas, that's still work, but it's what I love to do. So it's the fun in that half of it. And the thing is about creativity is that it can happen any point, any time, can't it? Yeah. You know, it's not streamlined. It's not like I have to make a call at 2 o'clock or be on a Zoom at 4. Or like this, the recording, you know, it's, uh, very spontaneous. And I remember a big case actually that happened from the States that everybody was talking about, when a woman was talking about her work and she said, but I have— I think about work in the bath, you know. So because I'm employed by this particular company and this is my role— I think she was doing strategy or she was a CEO— she said, I work 24/7 because my thoughts are to do with my company that can happen any point, any time. And I think that's the same as a creative. Yeah, absolutely. I'm— and I mean, that's what is frustrating, that it is so spontaneous. Like, I, I've sat down so many times before where I had— I— it's a weekend and I have nothing to do, so okay, I want to write, I want to write some music, and I sit down and I have absolutely nothing. Not force it if it doesn't want to come, you know. Yeah, just write. Just So just for anybody who is the budding creative artist, know that this is the problem and this can always be overcome and just be prepared to take notes. It's the same as comedian. Most comedians walk around with little books in their pockets or as you say voice memo and you write something down and then you work on it, you craft it to your own sound. So when you get this idea, do you— obviously you play, do you play the guitar? I take it you do. No, I don't. I play, I play the piano and I play a little bit of ukulele. Oh, the ukulele, amazing. Yeah, my dad would absolutely love if I learned how to play the guitar and I've tried a few times before. It's a little bit harder for me, so I don't play the guitar, but basic, just basic piano, like enough where I can sit down and play chords and really just start to build out a melody. Okay, so then what? Who do you take that to? I have been so lucky to have found people who really understand me as a writer, and I've worked with them for a while now. And I work with two guys named Ryan Bagnio and Monty Malone, and I just adore working with them because they really know me and they know exactly what I'm looking for. And that just, you know, it just makes everything so much easier. And yeah, that's who I work with. So is it like A Star Is Born, you go into the production in to see them and you're sitting in the sound studio and you go, I've just had this idea, can we put some more notes to it? Or do you— where do you go? Do you have a rehearsal room? Well, this is— so this is embarrassing, um, I've never seen A Star Is Born, so I'm not going to— well, any, any, any of those music films. I'm trying to give an image to people. But typically, I mean, it sometimes is different. Like the last, the last song I wrote, I actually, um, it was Ryan who— Ryan said, hey, I've been working on these tracks, like, would you be interested in any of them? So I went over to his studio and he played me all this music that he had in mind for me, and I said, okay, I want to go home with these and, and work with them. So I actually ended up writing to his track, writing just lyrics and a melody onto it. And so Then at that point I go, okay, like, let's, let's get the gang together and let's see what we can, um, what we can do and how it sounds. And we all get to collaborate together. And sometimes they'll come in and say, I have no idea what I want right here for the bridge. Like, I really need help with this. Um, which that's like another thing where it's like, it's big for me to admit that I need help because again, like, I used to really want to be like perfect the first time I write something. But yeah, it's become a very collaborative process between us. Oh, so you'll trust them. It's interesting that we were talking about contracts and things, and those come up much later very often if you don't get the contract right and the deal right. It comes up much later on with artists who do well. You know, Paul McCartney, it was Lennon and McCartney, and McCartney took that Lennon and McCartney to court and said, no, it should be McCartney and Lennon, didn't he? And that can happen many years later. So this foundation, understanding how to negotiate between people, is super important, right? And I think definitely that comes from having, um, two lawyer parents who are trying to look out for me. And so as much of trust and just like enjoyable friendship that I've developed with them, like with, uh, Monty and Ryan, like we still we sign things, we, we say like, okay, this is what's fair, let's do that. Um, so it's, it's like, I, I think it's nice though when you have, when you have like such a good relationship and trust, but like still, you know, just making sure everything's okay on the other end and nobody gets, you know, nobody gets there offended by it. Yeah, totally. Because they, in America they understand it. Here I think people are beginning more and more to understand for themselves. They get, you know, it's complicated because if you look at Coldplay they've been together and they split everything between 4 of them, you know, and that works for them. And I think that's fantastic because it makes them— there's no— then anybody can chip in with an idea because they're all valuable. But you're a solo artist, really. But then when it comes to PRS, so you've got the Performing Rights Society, then you've got mechanical rights, right? When you start distributing, it's complicated. And every venue has to write down— people don't know this— every venue, unless you're in this industry, has to write down which tracks they play in their venue, and that performer will get a percentage of that. So let's say that you get— you're played in a venue, you get a certain percentage that goes through performing rights or mechanical rights, and then you will get that percentage added up and paid quarterly. But on Spotify again, if people download and play you on Spotify, uh, you get a very small percentage. Now, this is quite different to what it used to be. Do you think the game has changed to the point where the onus now is so much on the artist to do absolutely everything without getting any payment? Because as I said, when does it switch from a hobby or you investing in yourself and truly are an entrepreneur and when does it become something that is your, not only your creativity, but also you're now being paid and it's your business? Yeah, absolutely. I think, I think that I love, I love being able to be an independent artist and I love getting to do all these different aspects of like, of just my career, but at the same time I think that pressure of saying like, well, artists can just do everything on the, like on their own now, that puts a lot of pressure on like an individual or on a group. Like if they're, if they're a band or a group, it just, it adds another complex, complex layer of, okay, this is all kind of on my shoulders. Um, which I mean, for me, I, that's unfair for me to say it's all on my shoulders because I have such an incredible support system. Um, but that kind of is the mental thought of it is how much pressure is an artist willing to put on themselves to keep to keep pursuing and to keep, and to keep doing what they love without burnout. You have to, like, that's the key is avoiding the burnout. Yeah, totally, because you have to do so much and you have to keep on top of it. And I speak to a number of artists over here who have spent fortunes on creating a label or paying for recordings and pushing themselves out there. And you have to do your own marketing. Let's not forget, people need to know you. People. So I'm delighted you're doing this, and I hope they will know you over here. So how far away from the big time are you, Lauren? Uh, honestly, I still, I still have a ways to go, I think. I think I have some very great connections, and I've been getting really, really incredible positive reviews, and I've been doing more radio interviews, um, there in the UK, and I've had the opportunity to open for some world-renowned artists. Like, okay, name drop, now's your time. I, I'll go right ahead. Yes, please. I love that. Open for like Flock of Seagulls and Missing Persons and Wilson Phillips and Jim Messina and, um, Anna Nalek. And that have— like, I've had all these incredible opportunities and connections, but I know that I can always do more, and I know that I can always go on to bigger and better, um, and better and better and better. But it definitely— yeah, it definitely is like, it's a pressure. But I think I'm really lucky that I get to do something that I just absolutely love. And I also get to kind of use songwriting as a little bit of— I don't know, I, I call it lazy therapy because I— it's just one-on-one getting to like write out my thoughts and feelings and emotions. So even with all that pressure and, and all the, the excitement, I can still kind of just come back to myself and say, okay, let's just make things simple. Like, what do you want to write today? Do you know, and the important thing is that music is so important, you know. To me, music is sort of the soundtrack, obviously, to my life. Music— and we all choose our own music to our life, don't we? That certain, certain bits of music, um, that give you that sort of impetus, that sort of will tell everybody what you're going through. So I remember going through quite an interesting time with my company, and there was a song, and I can't remember who was born, uh, who wrote it, but it was called, um, Shut Up and Give Me Whatever I Want. And I just loved playing that because it got me into that mindset. So music I absolutely love, and it is so expressive. But having said that, do you look back on your own work— and I think poetry is the same, so I love all that, and all that expression is vital— but do you look back on it and say, 'Ah, I was going through that at that time,' and it helps you create a sort of path of where you were and what you were doing? Yeah, absolutely, 100%. Um, I I would say my music, I tend to write a little bit more of like the doom and gloom, um, because I like to talk about those harder topics. And it actually is so interesting, um, to be able to look back and like re-listen to some of my songs and just be like, wow, wow, like, like, it's, it's not that dramatic. Like, and, and it's like funny in retrospect looking back on things about like some things that really severely affected me and, and But now I'm very grateful that I get to look back and be like, this is like such an interesting little time capsule for me. And just really reflect on like how much your life can change in 6 months, a year, 5 years, just how much your life can change. And so it's great to get to look back on that. I just, you know, think that when you talk about— when people talk about Adele, for example, They say that she only does those doom and glooms, and gosh, aren't they brilliant? Yeah. And yours is fantastic too. You've got such an amazing voice. I just wonder if that's quite a useful tool, actually, to get rid of the doom and gloom in something like that, and then you can get on with life, because you're quite cheerful, aren't you? You're not, "Oh my goodness me, Maria, the world is terrible," you know. So do you think it's a useful tool to write music and just get rid of it in that way, to write poetry, get rid of all your anxiety in that respect, and then you go, okay, I've got rid of that, now I can move on? Yeah, I, I, yeah, the answer is yes. Um, it's, it's, I think, the most successful outlet for me. And I don't think it's important to just drop everything and be like, moving on, like, I'm gonna forget that. But it's important to be able to have a little distance. And especially when something's written down on paper, when you're writing lyrics down, it's like, wow, okay, like, it's— you're literally getting it out of your head and then being able to share that with people. Because that's what I love about storytelling, is I have just always wanted to be able to connect with other people and let them know that you're not the only one going through something like this. Like, there, there is at least one other person on the planet who understands. And so getting to be able to, to connect with people in that way is very cathartic as well. Yeah. So, uh, you obviously know, as most people do, that, um, Adele had an ex-partner of hers who claimed he owed some of the copyright to one of her pieces of music because it was about her— about him. Have you ever had that problem? No, you know, funnily enough, my second EP, I named it No Names Here, and everyone was like, why are you naming it that? And I, and I said, I'm never going to share who any of this music is about. There are literally no names. Yes, yes, no names here. So do you find, do, do your partners, do your relationships, do they say to you, don't put me into one of your songs? I mean, it's like comedy, for example, comedians. I have worked with— I've never had that. I've never had that happen. No one has— no one has told me to. And I think, I think if anybody were to ever ask me, like, please don't write about me, that would have to be maybe like, um, I'm all about open communication. And so like, if somebody were to genuinely ask me and say like, this would really bother me, like, please don't, I think I'd have to really balance like my respect for that person and, and also the respect for myself as an artist. Um, but I think in the grand scheme of things, if it was going to negatively affect somebody after they have like so politely and nicely— like, if somebody— I think if somebody were mean about it, I'd be like, no, I'm gonna write about you. But if I think if somebody were to genuinely ask me and explain their feelings, like, I really would have to respect that decision. I remember doing stand-up for 10 minutes basically because I'd run comedy clubs for years and years, and I was doing stand-up for charity actually, which was an amazing experience. It taught me so much. And an ex-boyfriend of mine did say to me, please put me into your stand-up, which I thought was— I thought, okay, what do you want me to say about you? But I didn't actually ask. But I went to see Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle recently, and they were both— particularly Chris Rock, who's now Footloose and Fancy Free, who is one of my all-time favorite comedians, um, was saying that he is out on the market and was talking about dating. And it was so interesting and actually named somebody— I'm sure that wasn't her real name— but it was so fascinating that they do use— obviously you use your whole worldly experience to come out in your music. It's not just this pretend being. At times it is, but it is your real-world experience, isn't it, that comes into everything you write? Right. And I'm sure, I'm sure that some people have known that I've written about— like, I'm sure people know, but they, they've yet to admit it to me. Um, so I guess that's, that's their problem. If they have a problem with it but they don't want to talk about it, then that's, that's their prerogative. Um, but yeah, it's, it's— how, how can you not? How can you not if you're writing about your life, how can you not want to write about the experiences that are happening to you? And you don't experience things singularly in life. It's not just a solo moment. So you have to bring other people into it. But that's why I'm not going to write anybody's name in a song. But does it hamper your relationships? I don't think so, no. No, good. I'm good. Yeah. And especially with the doom and the gloom, Sometimes I'm kind of writing about things like after the fact, so, so there's, there's not, not really a relationship to, to worry about at that point. So here you are, you're— how far are you through your law? I just started. It's, it's a 3-year program and I am about 2 months into it and I'm really enjoying it and I'm loving it. And I definitely have had to work on adjusting my schedule and figuring out like fitting, fitting in a place to work on my music. And, and I'm really lucky and thankful that I have, and I have been able to do that. And it'll be interesting to see how much it affects you because the language patterns are very different. Law. Oh my gosh, creative writing. And I'm like, all I know how to do is creatively write. I know, you can't, can you? No. That will be interesting to see if it impacts on you, and that's a journey in itself. Because that's quite an interesting combination, law and creative writing. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's sort of— you almost have to switch your mindset from one to the other. It's kind of nice being able to turn different parts of your brain, you know, on and off. And everybody always talks about in law school there's so much stress, and I honestly, I feel like I feel a little bit of stress, but being able to work on my music and focus on that and just shut off my, like, the law school side is I'm not worried. I'm not worried about, about the stress because I, I really get to, get to work on music. And, and I have, even though I'm the doom and gloom queen, I have been working on some happier material as of late. Um, so, so I really, I'm really, everything is, everything is bright and sunny in world now. When I would go— I'm so happy. You know what's interesting about this is that if you're, if you're stressed, for example, you know, if you have stress in a certain area, if you channel not the stress, but if you— the stress can be transformed if you put it into something. I love learning for that reason as well, but I am very curious like you, and I learn all the time. I think I'll be learning till I die. And hope to live for a very long time because there's so much to learn. As they say, the more you know, the more you know you don't know, and the more there is to know. And you just keep learning and opening those doors. So when you are learning, and if you are going through a stress, I always think, unless it's a stress that totally paralyzes you, go and learn something. Learn something that is quite hard to learn, but that you love, because it really will grab your attention. And it will focus you. I did my PhD in a really very difficult time of my life, and the PhD, I had to work remotely on that, so 98% was remote, and it really focused everything I had so that the stress was stressful, but it was a different sort of stress. And so you could just work on the stuff that you loved and be totally distracted, but also you could give your attention and you knew the outcome was purposeful as well, right? It was a wonderful way to do it, isn't it? Yeah, it really— it just— it— I, I probably won't— doesn't— wouldn't work for everybody, but it just really works, I guess, for people like you and me. Yeah, but I do think it doesn't have to be to that level, does it? But there can be something that occupies your mind that you can just take up something, to learn something, doesn't matter what it is. We have so many more advantages with YouTube, and you've got all these different online courses and everything that comes out, and you can make those happen if you, um, you know, sort of just put your attention somewhere else. And we've got a lot of free courses here in the UK. We're very— we've got a wonderfully generous system in the UK where you can learn for nothing.. And I think just go and learn something else that you thoroughly enjoy and just wrap yourself up in that newness of something so that the other stress can— when it comes to you, you can just go, okay, it's not that bad after all. I've got a future, I've got something positive. Yeah. So what's your next steps in music? Um, I'm so excited. I actually am going to be releasing, um, my debut album in the new year. I have just really been focused on working on that. I just a few weeks ago released a new single called Lift You Up, which is one of those happier, happier songs. It definitely has this like upbeat '80s-inspired feel, and that's going to be on the new album. And I really have just been focusing on finishing that and kind of just figuring out a plan from there. Like, it's been really, really exciting to work work on an album, and it's going to incorporate some of my older singles, um, and, and some fresh brand new work, and I'm just really excited about that. So Lauren, when you do an album, did you have a theme, or did you— you have to blend the music together, don't you, to have to make it fit? This is definitely— I did not write with a theme in mind. It definitely is more of a blend, um, which is kind of exciting for me, um, because I, I I do love to experiment. Like, my first EP that I wrote, they were all completely different songs because I was finding my sound for the first time. And then my second EP, which is No Names Here, that, that all much more had a theme and sound. And, and I have loved to see how I've grown as a writer and grown in my music tastes as I've been working on this album. So the name of your album is I haven't named it yet. I have no idea. No name yet, but the song is Lauren Waller Untitled Debut Album. But it's Lift You Up, and we will be able to find it on Spotify. Yeah, Lift You Up is— it's out basically anywhere you stream, so like Apple Music, Spotify, Amazon Pandora, basically anywhere you want to listen to music, you most likely can find it. And yes, Lift You Up by Lauren Waller. Lauren Waller, W-A-L-L-E-R. You're on YouTube, uh, YouTube as well, aren't you? Do you, do you do videos for everything? Not for everything. Um, I definitely probably could be a little bit better at my YouTube, but I have some really great live, um, live footage up on there, a few music videos. Um, and yeah, like, it definitely is a good place to go check out. And do you— is it essential? Do you think a video for every musician is essential? Do I think a video for every single song ever is essential? No, but I definitely think being able to express yourself and really show like what your, I guess, aesthetic as an artist is, I think that really helps people connect. Like one of the music videos I did is so fun. It's this song called Night Stalker, which is kind of written partly about like abusive relationships, but it was more so the name comes from a serial killer from Los Angeles. Which is a little bit dark, but it's like this really fun, fun trap, like trapped in a dollhouse is basically what I told Tara Jenkins, who is a friend who she created this video for me. And it was getting to explore just like a really fun concept for a darker song. And so it really just shows off your personality a little bit. Ah, yes, I was listening to that. It's a great song. So if anybody wants to listen to Lauren, I hope you'll be coming over to the UK soon. And Lauren Waller, this is Your Mind Matters. It's been an absolute joy. I cannot tell you what fun it is to be talking to you and just listening to you exploring, you know, sort of this part of your life in so many areas and looking forward to where you'll end up. And just to say to everybody, we have heard Lauren first and she is on her way to future stardom. I know that. And it will be joyful. I am Dr. Maria Kempinska. Your mind matters. If you want to find me for therapy or just to have a chat, it's www.mariakempinska.com. And I look forward to hearing from everybody. Just please bear in mind that there are creative outlets for everything that goes on. And if you can just find something creative that re-presents to the world a part of yourself. It can be absolutely joyful and unique, and you can find something out about yourself that you thought may never have been there, whether it's sculpture or painting or music. And as Lauren said, having the voice that your brother thinks you didn't have. Lauren Waller, thank you so much. No, thank you. This is so lovely. Thank you.