Your Mind Matters – Rosie Smith, Jekyll And Hyde

Today's theme is the psychology of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. This fascinating book is still relevant and profoundly depicts today's social behaviour. The story symbolizes the potential of intention turning into a negative trajectory and onto uncontrollable evil. The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, a Gothic novella written by famous Scottish author Robert Louis Stevenson, is a narrative of the duplicity of human nature. Dr. Jekyll is a kind, well-respected, and intelligent scientist who meddles with the darker side of science in order to bring out what he calls his second nature. Stevenson contextualized the characters in a scientific setting to make them remote and at that time unusual, an experiment, but in reality his work is prophetic. Dr. Jekyll tries to control his alter ego, Mr. Hyde, and for a while he's successful. However, Dr. Jekyll gradually and scientifically, using various chemicals, transforms himself into Mr. Hyde, his evil alter ego. Hyde acts on this psychopathic attitude, and as he develops, he refuses to repent or accept responsibility for his crimes. Eventually Hyde dominates, which results in both of their deaths. The themes of power, drug addiction, and destructive attitude pervades this novel, and although this book was written in 1886, these themes are still relevant today. The story begs the question: do we all have the capacity to turn from caring to deceitful? Jung said that this side of our nature resides in our shadow, the part of the psyche where dark repressed side of our nature is hidden. But also let's remember in the psychotherapeutic terms that once we look into our darker thoughts and feelings, we can also uncover our gold. But if we do not, we allow that Mr. Hyde nature to fester and grow into a destructive power. The effect of Mr. Jekyll and, uh, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde character in our lives can surprise and wound us. This happens far too often today, especially with the acceptance of narcissism and individual selfishness above community caring mind. My guest today has turned her teenage experiences into music, and one of her songs is Jekyll and Hyde. And it's known that art can transform pain into a productive and healing medium. Music is that wide worldwide art which has a universal language with themes that resonate an impact on every human being. My guest today is Rosie Smith, an absolutely amazing artist, a brand new singer— well, not quite so brand new, but almost brand new— and she is really hitting the headlines and doing festivals, uh, with records on YouTube, and is going to make a profound impact on today's modern world. So Rosie, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome. Thank you. Uh, so let's start with that song because let's get deep, dive deep into how you chose the Jekyll and Hyde theme, which is— as soon as I heard that you were doing that, I thought, wow, you've really hit actually the zeitgeist, the psychological zeitgeist of today's, uh, world, actually, the theme of people being negative, turning against you. And being one thing on the surface and another underneath. How did that affect you and what happened to you? Well, I think it came from a sort of a combination of things, but when I was at school, there were— I was— I went to school and I got a sports scholarship, and in the sporting world it's very, very competitive, and I guess people will go to great lengths to make sure that they win, is what I sort of learned in in that environment. And yeah, there were some sort of unkind people, and I sort of dealt with a lot, like, put up with a lot of it, but sort of got to the point where I thought, I don't think I can quite carry on like this anymore. So I went and spoke to somebody and said this was what was going on, and before I knew it, my parents were called in and they were told that I had apparently said that I was hearing voices and that I was going crazy, which they'd taken everything out of context completely to 'keep this person safe,' I don't know, from any trouble. And within that, I thought, you know, I was about 11 maybe, and told that I'm crazy at 11 years old made me feel even more crazy. So that sort of stayed with me for quite a while, actually. And then also I had different experiences as I went into secondary school further up, and even in like sixth form, there was still lots going on. So I turned to music in terms of songwriting when I was about 13. I bought myself my first guitar mainly because my parents said they wouldn't buy it because it would be a thing I'd pick up for 2 minutes and get bored, which they weren't wrong because that's what happened the first, for the first few weeks. But yeah, I just, I turned to talk to an instrument than a person because of the experience I had when I was 11. I thought, well, I've come to you and confided in you and you've sort of, you know, taken me in and spat me out. So I knew that the guitar couldn't necessarily talk to anybody else. Um, this does sound like I'm, I'm bonkers, but, um, stay with me. So I think, um, in, in that, as you said about music, I think I— it became a very much, um, like a healing source where I was able to sort of get my feelings out in a safe way, um, and everything that I wanted to explore, um, you know, mentally, physically, um, and just, just thoughts that I couldn't quite articulate, um. And then within that, I've obviously written the song Jekyll and Hyde about the two things of, um, you know, am I— was I crazy, or am I going crazy, or, um— and I think there's something really lovely that I can put that out and not necessarily have to say, well, this was my experience and this was this, because at some level you can go, oh well, when I hear this song, I think of the relationship, uh, you know, of a father and son, or this or that. So I quite like that it had— it could also have different meanings. Um, so yeah, and also it's just a universal language, music. So whether or not, you know, you're from Japan or, or I don't know, Russia, you could you still understand the sentiment, and that's something that I like, that I'm sure everybody's had some sort of experience with someone not being nice, or, you know, things could have been done differently to you as a kid, or even now, or, you know, maybe you're 60 and working in an office and struggling with someone who runs a photocopier, do you know what I mean? It could be anything. But yeah, I think I've gone off track, Maria, that's what I think. No, you haven't, Rosie, no, you haven't. It's interesting that what you're saying, I think you have brought it to the outside world. You have said that music actually impacts everybody. They'll look at it and they'll make their own interpretation of it. But, you know, coming back to your point, you were 11 at the time and you expect people to protect you. You're still young. And the profound effect— I want to actually— a couple of things. One is, thank goodness that your parents were on your side, because can you imagine what would have happened as an 11-year-old? You have this dark, unpleasant experience from somebody who turns on you. You go to the teachers, you go, you know, sort of to, or somebody that should care, to confide in them the problem, which is what it's all about, as they say. And they turn it into something else, which is quite dark and quite festering and quite macabre. And let's face it, had your parents not trusted you and believed you, you could have been sent to all, for all sorts of problems, and you could have ended up on drugs that would have, you know, assumed that you were hearing voices and were going down the wrong road of insanity. And let's face it, I do think that we are— what you have, you know, sort of experienced there is not unusual for young people. And I think this often happens as a misinterpretation of a young person's cry just for help, to identify when somebody does something wrong to you. Now, as you say, here you are, you're older, but— and you can look back and say, well, you know, I could have done something differently. But no, you couldn't as an 11-year-old. We demand, and we have every right, that our society protects us. And I think, thank goodness that you were protected in some way. But also your own internal thoughts, how you turned that into something that is incredibly, um, healing for not only just for yourself but for others. And you chose that theme of Jekyll and Hyde, and as I said, I think it's a very prophetic theme because this is happening not only to you but a lot of people at the moment in so many ways. If you open the theme of Jekyll and Hyde today, which we're not necessarily going to go into straight away, but if you open the door to that theme, is what is happening generally, you know, to people that they seem to be accessing the Hyde nature and allowing that to come forth. And I know that happens on social media, but coming back to you, there you are, you're 11 years old. What were your feelings at that time? Because that's incredibly young to feel something— oh my goodness, what have they done? That deep betrayal must have been quite horrendous. How did you tell your parents and how did they deal with it? Well, I, um, I didn't tell them anything, uh, for— well, really nothing really came out until I was about 13, um, like properly. I would say little things, but I'd come home from school and they'd say, 'How was school?' And I'd say, 'Yeah, great, great, fine,' run up to my room. And it was sort of a thing that wasn't spoken about because I didn't quite know— well, I think I knew I was being treated unkindly, but I just thought it was a new school, it was a new environment, and I knew that, you know, it takes time time to settle in and find some friends and this sort of thing. Um, but in my life, even from a kid, like in nursery, I, I would say I was— I've always sort of been a social butterfly, never really having one set sort of group of people. Um, it's only really until now that I've been to drama school that I've, I've now got like a really lovely group of friends that, you know, that I can confidently say it's a lovely group of friends. Um, which is actually a strange sentence for me to say because I've never had that. I mean, my best friend my whole life has been my nan, which some may laugh and do whatever, but she's the only person in my life as a constant that I could tell everything to her and I knew she wouldn't, you know, utter a word to anybody. And that was lovely having that. But I think when I was so young, I just thought it would get better. Because I think, I mean, as you were saying, you know, as a kid, I think there's a lot of things, especially within school systems, um, that they're not trying to snuff your creativity or anything like that, but everything is sort of like, what's realistic, what's this, what's that, and it sort of puts a damper on that sort of innate child spirit. Like, you know, when, you know, you could say as a child, you know, you've— I don't know what I can and can't say, don't know what your audience is, but you know, you can believe in things as a kid. You know, if we've got, um, you know, the Tooth Fairy, for example, or the Easter Bunny, you know, you have that thing of, oh, the Easter Bunny, you know, he's gonna come and give all the eggs at Easter and this and that. And there's something so beautiful about that naivety, um, of childhood spirit. And I feel like when, when these, you know, I don't— yeah, bullying, sort of people being unkind, you know, these things happen and you're greeted with, um, you know, a person that you think you can trust and then they sort of shut you down and make you out to be something that you're not, um, can, can be absolutely crushing. That could completely crush your, your childhood, you know, your child spirit, your creativity, um everything. And I, I think it was very easy— it's very easy for people to, to be crushed by that. I don't know why I wasn't. Uh, maybe I was at some level and I, I'm yet to know it. Um, but I think being surrounded by the family that I was surrounded by, it was always a thing of— I think my parents did know that there was something wasn't quite right because I think I, um, you know, I went into my shell a little bit more. I was still very loud, very sort of confident, but I have always been, um, like, truthfully, at the, at the, um, the crux of things, very shy. But I put on a good front, I think. Um, that's the thing, and especially with my family, everybody, uh, may have these sort of feelings, uh, or, you know, maybe something that they're, you know, they're hurting, but they'll never show it. It will always be a good front. And it's only when you really sort of prod us that we'll say, oh, actually, do you know what, no, I'm not, I'm not doing, you know, not doing okay, or this or that. So I guess— No, no, it's great. No, it's lovely to hear you because I think you've touched on so many important things, issues. You know, one is the fantasy world, the imaginative world of a child. All children need that. They need to believe in the imagination because the imagination actually can rescue somebody, can heal, it can bring you into a better world. You know, and that's why, like, the Jungian framework for therapy is that one where you can access that part of your mind. What you do, you know, the arts are the imagination activated, and it's so important. And I love the fact that you've brought that up. And anybody who tries to bring children too far down to earth too quickly actually can cause them more psychological harm than good. You talked about that, but also on the other hand, the bullying aspect cannot be ignored because there's more bullying than ever going on. You know, when I— well, maybe not so much when I was growing up, we had a lot of bullying. I was the only sort of Polish family in the village, if you like, on our council estate. And, uh, but I had brothers and sisters and we all sort of dealt with that together. So, you know, sort of, so you sort of got used to it and you knew you were being protected. But I do worry that the system doesn't protect. But the, the moment you went through that, there are children out there that are bullied significantly, equally to the way you were, who find it very difficult to come back from that, you know. And they do suffer, and they do— their whole mental state changes to such a profound effect that they can never be the same again. And that comes back to you as a human being, you as somebody unique. So we all grow up with parents that sort of, in a way, direct us, help us with our skills, with human life, human behavior. This is who our, you know, personality is. But underneath it all, we have that ourselves, our intense character that comes through. And that's what's led you through this into your new world. But there's sometimes, I think, when you look back on your life, there are certain incidents in your life that are seemingly negative that really just point you, you know, swiftly. It's almost as if you're spun into a different direction. So if I can give you this sort of comparison, when Jung was quite young and he was writing, uh, work at school, he was a little bit older than you he wrote a piece and his teacher was reading out all these pieces in the classroom and he didn't read out Jung's work. And Jung in the end he said, 'And I've got one here that is, you know, head and shoulders above everybody else's, but clearly he's plagiarized everything, so I'm not reading out and I'm not going to give a mark because this is obviously belongs to somebody else.' Yeah, you know, and that can damage somebody. Alternatively, it can sort of repress that person's ability, that intellect, that skill, that creativity. Or as it did with you and him, it turns you into a different direction, which it did with you, and you turned towards music. And thank God you did. Yeah, I think, um, like when, when, when I was at school, um Well, no, I mean, when I was at home, my parents sort of made everything very fun. Uh, like, learning, um, was made fun, I think. I mean, I'm dyslexic, um, so I sort of struggled with, um, academics sort of quite early on because, uh, I don't know if they really were aware of dyslexia properly, um, or whether they didn't have the right things in place. Um, And so I struggled a lot with just sort of sitting and listening. I needed to either move about or, you know, draw pictures or do different things. So I mean, I used to— my mum used to come up with all these different like wacky stories, um, you know, if we're learning about geography, she'd say that, you know, talk about sheep or rainbows and unicorns or whatever just to try and make me remember things. I mean, sometimes the, uh, the analogies would be, uh, rude so that I could remember it, um, which great for a young person. Uh, and the same with my dad as well, like with all the sort of science-based stuff, like, you know, physics, chemistry, biology. Oh my goodness, I used to struggle. And my dad would sort of sit down and we'd come up with all these stories of like a journey that we would, you know, go through the woodlands and then swim in the sea, and all of it would correlate to, you know, um, waves in sound waves and in physics or this or that. And that really helped, um just by making it fun and a bit stupid. Um, it was, you know, my parents' way of encouraging me to, you know, to keep going with that. I would say as well, back to the, the bullying thing at school, um, that, um, because I, because I was doing sport, um, I was very, very competitive. I mean, I think I still am now, but at the time as a kid, if I lost anything, even if it were, you know, a running race down the street, first person gets the lamppost, if I lost, oh my gosh, I would be a horrible human being. I couldn't deal with losing. Um, I have got over that now. I did have a good— did you throw a tantrum, Rosie? Oh, oh no, I won't even go into it. The shoes came off, the t-shirt, like, threw my hat down. Oh, it was bad. But I, weirdly enough, in that, still had good sportsmanship. Uh, so I would still shake the hand of my cousin or whoever it was I was racing to the lamppost. Um, But within that, I think because I had such a drive to win, um, and be the best, um, that I didn't want to be taken down mentally or, well, sometimes physically by, by these horrible people. Um, and I think because I had that somehow injected into me, whether it was, you know, um, a, a DNA thing or if it was, um, you know, a nurturing thing, uh, I think because of that I am lucky now that I haven't let it completely floor me. Um, and I would say that even though those experiences, you know, I, I'd never want to go back to that place of being, you know, mistreated, but let me tell you, I am so grateful that they were so horrible to me. And it's taken me time, and if anything, I feel sorry for them now because at some level they must have felt so insecure that they had to be so nasty. Um, and also I am hopeful because I've written songs that can now help other people. So really it's a full circle thing, I guess. So tell me about your parents. What do they do? Um, so my dad is a, is a lecturer, um, and sort of talks about sort of, um, psychology, sociology, philosophy, and does a lot about sort brain study, I think. I'm not really too sure. And my mum, she is a landlord, landlady, property developer or something like that. And your nan that you're close to, tell me about her. So my nan, she, well, for my 21st birthday she said, what do I, what would I like? And I told her I would love a book, a handwritten book of her life. So she wrote me a book from when she was 5 years old until the current day where she's now 80, 83. Wow, 83. Yes. Uh, and in there she, um, so her and my granddad, um, they had many, many businesses. So my, my granddad came over from Ireland and he was a welder, and together they had businesses. They had bed and breakfasts, they had care homes, uh, they used to look after, um, like military troops, um They're very, very hardworking, but the thing that I just love about them is that they're just so giving. I mean, nobody could say a bad word about them, and, uh, the house, their house in Southampton, is like constantly packed with people. Um, I, um, I sadly lost my granddad earlier this year, um, in June, so it's been difficult to adapt that, you know, there's only one person in the house now because it feels like he's still sort of sat out in the conservatory with the football on way too loud, you know, reading the news. And feeding the pigeons sort of thing. Um, that's another thing actually, my granddad, he was like some sort of bird whisperer. The pigeons loved him. Um, I mean, he did feed them, um, but yeah, no, my nan, as I said, like, she's, she's always, um, been a constant. She's always been there, but now it's, um, I'm sort of having to be there for her as well, uh, which has always worked both ways. Um, but yeah, it's, um It's a time where it's time to reflect, but a time that I think I've really noticed that I'm growing up because things are changing and the things that were always the same won't be now, if that makes sense. Yeah, totally. Yeah, just adapting, I guess. Yeah, that's what happens, isn't it? And in a way, with our family, that's what's meant to happen in some way. And although it's painful, you know, our family, we grow up and our family we sort of remove ourselves slightly from our family, and then we have to find out, who am I? As we grow up in our teenage years, it's almost like that was a significant moment at 11 where you, as a unique individual, have to experience the world separately. You're almost unprotected in that moment when that happens. It's almost like this is now your world, Rosie. This is what you have to encounter. And that's what I think a number of young people struggle to work with is, who am I? How am I getting through this? And it sounds as if you had a very strong sense of yourself. And I love the fact that you are, you know, sort of, uh, you are a winner. You want to win. You like the competitive spirit. There's nothing wrong with that, and it's great. And throwing your shoes around— and actually, maybe it's an observation that people should think about when they're with their children, you know, that it's not a bad thing if a child gets a bit annoyed if they lose. It's not whether they get annoyed if they lose, it's how do they deal with that and how that can be socially, you know, that can be socially acceptable. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember a really strong memory. I think I was in year 1, so I don't know how old I would have been, like, is it 5 or 6 maybe? And there was a sports day at my school, my primary school, and it was, you know, the sort of standard sack races, the egg and spoon, the running around sort of thing. And at the end, I think I won most of the things. I think I came second in the egg race, and that's the one thing I do remember which I was a bit gutted about. Um, but why is that a useful skill? Um, anyway, um, when we were there, they did like an award ceremony thing at the end, and they gave everybody a medal, and I couldn't cope. Why was everyone getting a medal? Because not everybody won. And I had such an epiphany, um, of, you know, at such a young age thinking, well, how is it fair to give everybody a medal? And I remember my mom sitting down saying, you know, well, everybody, everybody participated and everybody did well and everybody— and I, I remember just saying, like, probably not in these words, it's definitely not verbatim, um, but, you know, surely they should award the people that, that won. Um, and I, I could— I just couldn't understand that everybody got a medal. I don't know why this is relevant now, Maria, but somehow No, no, I do think that, you know, I think there's— there is socially, uh, they are trying to force a change on human nature. We need to strive onwards. And some people— and I think this is— this actually is a mistake what they're doing, these— they— the people in our education system start with that, you know, where they say, oh no, everybody's a winner. No, they're not. And some people are stronger than others and The job is not whether you win, it's how you deal with winning. It's what do you do with that win. So years ago, when you had Cadbury that were really super successful, they used to buy their workers houses to live on, the Peacock Estate. They used to buy people houses to live in. And that's what you do with your wealth. It's not just for you. And in a way, that's what, you know, Jekyll and Hyde deals with. What is for you and what is for somebody else. Why are we becoming manifestly more and more like Mr. Hyde, that nasty, evil, selfish, you know, sort of, I want to control the world and it's my world and it doesn't belong to anybody else? And that's what you're saying, we should be praised if we win. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, you don't— not everybody gets to go to the Olympics and not everybody at the Olympics wins a gold medal. You know, it comes through, you know, hard work and striving and pushing past all these barriers and obstacles that are put in your way. Um, but yeah, I don't know, I guess there was a sort of thing. Yeah. Do you have a brother? I don't know. Um, I— well, my mum was told when she was younger that there was no scientific possible way that she's ever having children. She, she was told couldn't have children, right? Um, there was some thought that she couldn't carry boys or something because she was, um, pregnant before me, but obviously, um, it didn't happen, unfortunately. Um, but I always say I did want an older brother. Um, but I do have a younger sister, and, uh, and she is, is anything but, uh, a brother type. She— me and her are very, very different. We're like chalk and cheese. So I'm I've always sort of been the tomboy of the family, and she is the complete opposite, sort of girly girl. Um, she's actually just gone up to Leeds to study, um, at uni, and, um, I, I get updates that she's had her nails done and she's, she's going for a tan and she's, you know, got her eyelashes. I could think of nothing worse. Um, I mean, I can't get my nails done because I play the guitar and I would, I'd wreck them in seconds. But, um, it's actually, it's, I mean, a bit of yin and yang sort of thing where we're kind of complete opposites. And I think, uh, In a way, it's quite nice. I mean, we did the same things, um, when we were at school. She never sort of hit the music and acting side of things, um, as much as she loves singing. Um, I would, I would hope that she sort of keeps it in the house, um, because— but bless her, she, um, she does try. She can play 2 songs on the piano, and she, she will let you know that she can play those 2 songs on the piano because she'll play them on loop for an hour. Um, but, uh, no, it's lovely. And I think the fact that we are so different means that we can, I don't know, almost understand each other in a way that maybe others, others can't. Um, so she's got a very strong relationship with my parents, but— and she's got a completely different relationship but still strong with me. And I think that's, that's almost quite nice in some ways. Yeah, it's lovely because not all women I mean, this is where, you know, sort of I think women are getting lost at the moment, not through their own fault by the way, because a lot of times we're given, you know, sort of symbols or styles of men. But there are lots of very important models, idols, you know, sort of for women that have been ignored, you know. Yeah, the older woman that is wise, your nan, you know, the woman who goes out and go, you know, moves forward like Bodicea or Bodica. You know, we've got all these women in our history, and if you don't know your history, we can't translate that into the modern-day life of the type of women we have. You know, not— Bodicea wasn't a warrior, an Amazon. That wasn't her all her life. You know, she fought when she needed to, as Joan of Arc fought when she needed to. And some women have got that ability. Irish have that ability. I, you know, sort of really have a resonance with the Irish family, you know, being Polish. And when you need to bring that out, you bring it out. And lots of women are capable of that. So, um, you were first of all a sports person, and you were very successful. Um, yeah, yes, I am. I always say, actually, I'm a as you know, anybody listening might know that I'm a psychotherapist as well, and a practicing psychotherapist. And I say to my clients, please, please tell me anytime you feel that somebody has praised you for something, always write it down, be conscious of it, and always, you know, enjoy those moments of success because you've worked for it. Nobody is— most people are not successful without hard work, let's be clear about that. So You know, I love people not shying away from their successes, their, their skills, their gifts, and we can build on that, and I think it's wonderful. So you were very successful as a swimmer? Yes, so I, I went predominantly for swimming and then got into sort of hockey, athletics, and then I went to the World Championships. I competed for Great Britain in a sport called biathlon, which is essentially run, swim, run continuously. Wow. So I did that in Cyprus, the World Championships out there, and, um, it was, uh, very tense. Um, it was a heat, and then you had another heat, and then I think it was a final. I can't quite remember. Um, but my— I think my dad probably— it's just me and my dad that went out together. Um, I think he was probably more stressed than I was. I mean, I've never seen the man sweat so much in all my life. Um, but, uh, it was— it was a very intense day, but it was— it was definitely worth it. And, uh, there's one thing I'll never forget is, um, I don't think he's gonna hate me for saying this, but, um, at the end of the day, when once, you know, all the medals were given out and all that sort of thing, um, he said, where would you like to go for dinner? Like, because, you know, you've done well today and, you know, it's a treat sort of thing. And, uh, we found a Pizza Hut in Cyprus. Of all the places you could go and try, you know, the delicacy of the food bloody Pizza Hut. Um, but it was like all-you-can-eat, all-you-can-drink sort of thing. And, um, just, just as a preface, my dad is not an alcoholic, but this night it seemed like he probably was. Um, it was, as I said, all-you-can-drink, and there was all this red wine. So he'd had some red wine, and we were walking back to the, um, apartment thing where we were staying, and, uh, he was sort of walking me down in the morning, you know, to do the heat, and he was holding me up and doing things. And on the way back, I was, I was the one holding him up. So, um What it showed is that it was a very, very great adventure. Again, a memorable turn of events where it's, you know, suddenly you, what, you step into that adulthood step by step, don't you, with your parents? Yeah, you stepped into— now you've stepped into that with your nan, you know. And we do it gradually, and it doesn't mean it's easy, it just means it's a gradual transition. And we all have these moments, you know. This is our— they call it your journey. I think our journey is much more the Odyssey, where things unexpectedly happen, and it's almost like, uh, for some people it's Herculean. You've got to overcome so many obstacles before you get to where you're meant to be going, and for all sorts of reasons. Yeah. You now— do you, uh, are you still sporty, or have you given it all up for music and performing? Um, so now, I mean, I go to the gym and go for runs and, and do the odd ab workout here, there, and everywhere. Um, but no, in terms of the competitive side of things, I, I, I'm not doing anymore. I, I got quite injured, um, doing different things as well, like, um, different bones going and hamstrings, this sort of thing. Um, and I think, um, well, when I was, when I was a kid, uh, I mean, I started swimming from 9 months old, you know, with sort of mother and baby thing. So I think it was always a thing Um, well, I mean, the main thing was that my parents just wanted me to learn how to swim so if I was in any danger, you know, it's just sort of the standard thing. Um, but weirdly enough, I only found out quite recently that, um, I would never put my head under the water. Apparently I used to freak out, saying like I would just cry. Um, which is quite funny thinking about it because I was a national swimmer and, you know, doing swimming for Great Britain and all this sort of thing. So, um It's quite funny, but no, I don't, I don't do any of that anymore. Um, when I was at school, there was lots of clashes with, um, swimming and athletics and hockey and sport. I mean, on, on one day alone, I think it was a Thursday, was my busiest day. I'd have some sort of choir in the morning, um, then I would, um, train, then I would go to school, then I would train in the break time, then do the lessons, then train at lunchtime, lessons, train this, and it would be continuous. And I would probably be at school on Thursday at about 5 in the morning and wouldn't be home until 10 PM. So it was, it was a lot of, a lot of pressure on the body, I think, and on the mind. So I think maybe I burnt out, or maybe I think, I think the main thing was actually that my passion was in the arts and I just didn't know how to split that because I know that I knew that the swimming and the, and the sport made my parents happy, and I was happy up until the point where I was getting injured and actually it was just painful to sort of keep going. And I thought, I need to— and the thing is, my parents, they were never pushy. They said, you know, you do it until you don't like it anymore. And I think that's the correct attitude. It was a thing of, you know, um, I mean, I remember I'd go, um, I'd be asleep in the morning and, and my parents had to come wake me up for, for swim training at like half 4 in the morning. And, you know, my mum, my dad would come in 'Look, it's time for swimming. I've woken you up once. If you want to go, go. If you don't, don't.' And it was— I think that was nice that they gave me the choice. I mean, and always I said, 'Yeah, I'm going,' unless I was dying of the flu or something. That's the only time I wouldn't go. But I think there was just the right balance of, you know, pushy but also giving me the choice, and I think that's important. So they set the tone for the discipline, but you have to choose to engage in that discipline. Exactly. And I think that's really— we now actually, because I think since coming out of drama school, um, when I was at drama school, it was 9 till 9 every day, and you'd have, you know, you'd have a set timetable of class at this time, lunch at this time, class at this time. I mean, sometimes we'd only have half an hour half lunch in the whole day. Um, and then in, in my third year— well, even during COVID actually, I was at drama school during COVID— um, we still sort of had a timetable with the Zoom classes, but it was far more like lax, um, where you sort of had to create your own discipline. And then even now, now I've left drama school, I haven't got somebody telling me where I need to be at what time. And to begin with, I found that quite difficult because my whole life I'd been in school I'd been in education, I'd been in some sort of sports team to have timetables, or, you know, living with my parents to tell me, right, get up, you know, dinner's on the table, all this, that. And then suddenly it felt like I was thrown in the deep end and I had no sense of direction almost, because I thought, you know, who's telling me what to do? Um, so, and I, and I am very grateful that my parents did have that way of, you know, setting up a path of this is discipline and this is whatever. If you want to choose it, go down this path. If you don't, then that's on you. I'm glad that I had that because it sort of helped set me up in my adult life, um, in terms of how I want to live my life and, and what discipline I can put in place to, to make sure I can achieve, uh, whatever I set out to do. So it switched from them to you. So how old were you when you decided, you know, sort of the music— it wasn't natural, was it? You didn't come out with this, you know, you weren't— people believe, and I was led to believe that if you're going to be a singer, you don't need training. Um, but you know, and it actually, it's a big, it's a big misnomer for most people because most people need to be trained to be, to sing. What happened in your life? So, um, yeah, funny story. Um, well, when I, when I was younger, I, as I said, I was doing swimming, but I was also doing Irish dancing. And I, uh, did Irish dancing from age 3 up until I think I was about 10. And I had to make the decision whether I did sport or, um, like swimming or Irish dancing. And really, I have to thank my mum on this one because I think I really wanted to do the Irish dancing but wasn't quite aware the opportunity I was being given for the swimming, uh, because I was sort of scouted for this sports school. Um, and luckily I did go, obviously, the way I did and went to the sports school and did all the swimming. Um, but within that, I was also also doing singing lessons. So I, I grew up in Southampton and then moved to Somerset, um, to go to the school. Um, and when I was in Southampton, I had a singing teacher, and I can't remember her name. I think it was like Miss C or something like that. And I had a couple of singing lessons, and in the, in the report thing that she sent— I actually need to find it, but I do remember seeing it somewhere— um, saying, you know, this, this girl can't sing, please stop her having lessons. And I was 3. Yeah, it was bad. I do have— I know it's a yellow book and I know it's somewhere in my garage at home and I need to find it because it makes me laugh. Um, but it said something along the lines of like, don't even put her in for more singing lessons, like, wait, you know, she's hurting everybody's ears. So anyway, when I went to the school in Somerset, um, I said to my mom, I was like, please, please, please, can I have some singing lessons? And like, everybody was so reluctant. They were like, this girl can't sing, she never will. Like, that's that's it. Um, but I met this wonderful lady called, um, Viola Nagle, who— she's from Canada, um, wonderful Canadian woman— and she literally taught me how to sing. Um, she said that I could sing before I got there, but let me tell you, like, nobody was in the same room as me when I, when I started to sing. Um, and there was a year 6 sort of musical that was happening, and previously in all the other schools, I was always the sort of like comedic relief character that never got to sing, you know, I always got a few laughs here and there and everyone seemed to enjoy my performance, but I was always gutted that I couldn't ever go for, you know, bigger parts because I couldn't sing or seemed to, you know, be that I couldn't sing. So when I went to this school in Year 6, I thought, I'm going to audition for this musical. And I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's called Honk and it's a story of the ugly duckling. And the two main characters is the ugly duckling and the mother called Ida. And Ida, I think, had like 10 songs or something. Uh, anyway, long story short, I, I got the part of Ida and I had all these solos. And, um, as I said, you know, me and my nan had this lovely relationship and she was very straight with me, like saying what she thought of my singing. And I said to her, please, Nan, please come and watch my show. And she said, oh, you're not singing, are you? I went, yeah, Nan, I'm singing 10 songs. And she said, I went, not on your own. I went, yeah, I've got solos as well. And she went, oh God. Um, she came And she said, I overheard a conversation that she had with my dad, and she went, if that girl can sing, I'll eat my hat. And, um, and I went up to her, I said, now what do you mean you'll eat your hat? And she went, oh, oh God, oh God. And, uh, so anyway, she sat and watched the show, and after she came up to me, and, um, my dad was there, and she said, Rosie, I'm gonna have to eat all my hats. And I think it was such a beautiful moment that I realized, oh, like, wow, maybe I can sing, maybe this is something that, you know— and I really enjoyed it, it was quite liberating. Um, but even at point, um, music was not even a thing that I even thought of that I would be going into. I thought it would be, you know, sort of doing stage stuff. But I think as I got older, I— as much as I love the thrill of the immediate response of being on stage, I've always been a bit of a perfectionist in terms of I want to get everything, you know, just right. Um, and I would love to do something where— some sort of like dark comedy in like TV or film. Um, and then You know, an added bonus would be to have my music feature within that TV series or film. Sure you can. But developing that, that's a great story and actually very funny, um, because James Hillman, you know, another psychologist, psychotherapist, talks about— you know, I call it the daemon. The Greeks called it your personal genius. I often talk about this, and, uh, James Hillman called it your acon. That within us all, we have something that is unique And if you believe in reincarnation, I suppose it depends on which life you're in. But in your present life, you've definitely got the performer gene for sure. And somehow you know that. Somehow you needed to have that ability to strive through, get through, you know, to win. You've got that even as I look at you on, you know, because you've got videos for your music and you are very much confident with being in the public eye, aren't you? I, yeah, I mean, I would say that there, as I said, like, I've always thought of myself as quite of an in— like, well, I say I'm an introverted extrovert, which in that I don't really know what that quite means, but I've always sort of been quite shy, kept myself to myself. But when, when it's, you know, the time comes, I have to just go bam, like, I'm here. I think within that, like, when I was at drama school, I did my dissertation on, like, um, you know, ego and, and creating an alter ego. And, you know, you look at it even with, um, uh, like David Bowie. He's got, you know, David Bowie, and then there was Ziggy Stardust. He had to create that. Um, and I think it was his manager or someone said, you know, if, um, if Ziggy wasn't born, you know, David would have killed David. It was a thing of that wasn't quite the right line, but it was, you had to create that sort of split in personality. I mean, even going back to the Jekyll and Hyde thing, to almost survive. I mean, you know, one that I quite like is the Hannah Montana vibe where you've got Miley Stewart, who is, you know, the regular ordinary girl, goes to school, plays with her friends, and then you've then got the pop star when she puts the wig on as Hannah Montana. So I think you need to have that separation because I think, I mean, I know I was talking to my flatmate the other night and we were saying, you know, if you're in a room with someone who is, um, you know, maybe sad, you, as you know, you empathically feel that. You feel their sadness, and you start— the root— the whole room has a sort of energy of, of sadness, and that's coming from one person. And I think if you can feel that, you know, and you allow that to affect you— imagine you're on stage and you've got 90,000 people screaming how much they love I mean, you wouldn't be able to cope with all of that on you. So I think you have to separate yourself at some level, um, to be able to survive. I think it's such an important subject we're talking about. I mean, for example, in the world of comedy, if you take somebody like Al Murray, he chose to be the pub landlord. Before he was the pub landlord, he was an ordinary stand-up. Then he stepped into his role as pub landlord and he actually, you know, changed perspective on how people saw him. You know, he presented that character in a way, that persona, that mask as Jung calls it, you know. And the Greeks had that— what is the mask that we are exaggerating, that part of ourselves. But coming back to that point, you're now— just give us a couple of names of the songs, because you have a label, you're now doing festivals, people are booking you, which is a feat in itself in this day and age. You know, so it shows that you're on that success trajectory. Tell us about the songs you're doing, what festivals you're doing, where you're performing, and then we can come back to this point. So I, well, I played at Glastonbury Festival this year, which was an incredible opportunity and one that I will never forget, and that was where I filmed the music video for Jekyll and Hyde, which was very, very fun. I think it was the perfect location actually, because Glastonbury is weird and wacky but wonderful. Um, and the characters that you see just even on the high street there are just fantastic, sometimes scary, but you know, they're all lovely, lovely people. Um, but the festival vibe was, was wonderful. If you do watch the video, a disclaimer: I'm not on drugs, and I, and we barely even had time to have a drink, so it is just pure sleep deprivation. Yeah, but I, I get the sense, because I saw that, I get the that's a part of you anyway, that you have this high energy— not manic, but just high energy, exuberance for life. You want people to get on. You're quite positive, you know, you're thoughtful, you're quite philosophical. But equally, you have this wonderful 'let's put everything right,' this, you know, glorious warrior forward leadership attitude about life. And that's why a lot of your work is socially you create social statements. Yeah, in your work. Yeah, it was just a thrill. I think I was just so happy to be there that, you know, that probably came through on the video, that it was just, you know, having a laugh and just, you know, not taking life too seriously as well. I think that there's a lot at the moment where there's so many problems in the world, and, and, and it's just, just to be, just to be happy that you, you're alive and, you know, you've got all around you, or even if you don't, you're just happy with yourself, do you know what I mean? So there's that aspect. The other things I do— oh well, I'm going on tour next week actually. I'll be supporting Scouting for Girls, who I absolutely adored as a kid. I went to their concert as a GCSE, post-GCSE thing when I was 16, and I would love to tell my 16-year-old self what's going on right now because I think she'd scream and lose her mind. Um, so that's very exciting. I'm going to be performing on the 1st of December. I think we start in Manchester, um, and then the 11th is when I finish, and that's in Glasgow. But within that time, I've also got a new single coming out called Consent, um, which is all about, uh, like sexual, sexual assault against women and, and, and men, but especially women. Um, there's, there's so many things like, you know, statistics and stuff like the 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted, 1 in 6 children, and 1 in 20 men. So, um, I think that was on the Rape Crisis website that I found those statistics. But I think, um, uh, the video that I've made for it, it's, it's from a, a personal experience, um, from my friends' experiences who are happy, um, to have shared their story with me. And also from, um, there was Jodie Comer did a— who's the actress, I think most known from Killing Eve, who played Brunel, she did a one-woman show called Prima Facie by Suzie Miller, who's an Australian playwright, once barrister, and it's all about sexual assault and how she used to get people off of the assault until the tables are turned and she's assaulted herself. And I remember watching the play earlier this year, and after, I mean, there were people crying around me. I just couldn't feel anything. I was completely numb to the fact of what I'd watched, which in— I think for me was almost a shutdown mode that I maybe couldn't cope with, like, how— well, her performance was phenomenal, so that was probably a part of it. But I, on my way home, it was like I'd sort of switched off and gone to sleep. And by the time I got home, I woke up, you know, figuratively, and I'd written this full song called "Consent." And I think it's important because I think these conversations are had, but they're not listened to, maybe. And that's, that's why, you know, not a lot of change has been done. Um, and I think we're getting there. There's still a sense that we are getting there. But, um, I did a lot of research on, um, Joan of Arc, um, in terms of, you know, she was betrayed by her countrymen and this sort of thing. And I think there's a parallel there where, um, you know, as women, sometimes, um, women don't believe other women. And this is where We Fall Flat. And the video that we did, uh, we explored the Joan of Arc side. So there was a sort of a parallel, um, that we did the modern world and then the sort of medieval side of things to show that really not much change has been made from that point. Um, so in the video there's things where, um, you've got sort of a man dressed in a hoodie, a modern-day hoodie, and then you've also got a man in a robe, you know, like sort of like a monk's kind of robe. Uh, and I don't know what it's really signified, but, um, it is, as you say, it is that time has elapsed in one level, but it hasn't on another level. And I think what I love about your music is that you haven't made it into a hard-hitting, you know, difficult to listen to music. It's very easy to listen to, and I think that's why you're going to be— and you are super successful. That's why people want you to be on the stage because you haven't forfeited music for that sort of, you've got to listen to me, I'm telling you. You're not brutal, you're not blunt, but you have a very important message that comes through which is incredibly powerful. And I think that's the gift that you've got, that you've blended the two, that you actually suddenly, you're drawn into the music in its own right and the song, and suddenly you realize what it's about. And you get, wow, that was very deep and incredibly important. I think I wouldn't ever say that I'm the best sort of speaker. I think, you know, my words are quite clumsy sometimes, but when I can sort of have that moment of, as I was saying, the sort of almost dissociating when I write, it's like it doesn't come from me, it comes from somewhere else. Yeah. And in those moments, I know, like, you know, this feels right, but When I think why I write songs is because, as you say, I don't want it to come across as I'm preaching this message to you and you must believe in this and you must believe in that. Because if someone did that to me, I'd say jog on, mate. Like, I don't, I don't like when people sort of, you know, throw things in my face or shove it down my throat, because it's like, you know, everyone's got their own belief systems or, or their own thoughts and choices. Um, but I, I think these sort of top— I think I like challenging topics as well, um, to write about. And sometimes I don't even know that that's what I'm writing until I sort of get halfway through the song and think, oh well, this is what's obviously wanting to come out. Um, but I think with the consent song that I've written, there's a big thing as well of, um, that I've seen in certain interviews, and they said, well, you know, she, she decided to wear that, that mini skirt, and she decided to drink loads, so, you know, it's her own fault. Which, you know, you think it's not— it's how you raise people, it's how, you know, people are brought up, and you need to teach the lessons. But within the song, I, um, I'm sure when you hear it you'll see what I mean, but there's a thing of, you know, was it— did I make— there's a line in it saying, did I make bad decisions? And there's a thing of, of course you can make choices, you can make better choices, you can make worse choices, but whatever you decide to do, nobody has the right to take advantage of you. And I think this is— do you remember song Blurred Lines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was what that song was about, you know. But also, I think, you know, in your song— I have listened to it— and in your song you do say that, because that's the problem everybody ends up with, the victim. And they are often a victim, sometimes unwittingly, naively. Women can do certain things, or men can do. And as you say, men are equally raped, and children are They are so vulnerable. They are innocently in a situation where they're taken advantage of, and they end up with the brutal consequences of that psychologically, which never leaves them. I know people that have been raped, men who've been raped through various, you know, sort of sports associations, of people that they trusted, coaches and so on, and it never leaves them, you know. So I think what you've said is absolutely profound and clear. And I think that what is great about your work is not only the quality of your work that stands up in its own right as a performer— you're a fantastic performer, a great singer, your music is also very infectious— but also you cover these topics, as you say, without hitting somebody on the head with a sledgehammer. Suddenly you're drawn into a theme that equally you'll be exposed to. And when you talk to people, which they will— you'll get more and more interviews Rosie, for sure, that you can talk about this. And it is a problem of our time. It's a problem of time, as you say. It's not just this time, it's any time. Not to take advantage of the vulnerable, of the weak. And that's why it's great that you're strong. It's great that you're a winner, and winners should get, you know, medals. And I love seeing women move forward, as I love seeing men move forward and being winners. But I think, you know, as, um, we should cling on to the coattails of those who are super successful, and they have to carry the moral code that is correct for all of humanity. And that's what I want to see, almost a mental health, well-being, and moral code that needs to be designated for the whole of the globe. And one of them has to be not to violate the, you know, individual, the weak, the naive, the poor, the lonely, the homeless, and those that cannot look after themselves. Definitely, you know. And I think you're going to play a big role in that. And I think what you're doing is heading on to that bigger stage where you can become that spokesperson, as I say and as you say, without using a sledgehammer. So, um, what's your next song? Do you have a song in mind? Do you— how do you do it? Uh, what do you mean, what I'm writing next? Yeah, what are you writing next? Oh, Maria. Oh, okay. Uh, next, um, do you know, I, I did write a song, um, uh, actually a couple of nights ago, um, called Magic Beans. Oh nice. Yeah, and I can't really tell you what it's about, but there is a little section where there's sort of some spoken word. I don't want to say rap because I feel like, um, that sounds strange coming from me. Um, and I think if I said— if my friends could hear me, they'd be wetting themselves. Um, but, um, there is that song which I'm not really too sure what it's about yet, but, um, it's— I think it's just a feel-good, fun, random song. Um, but I think at the moment a lot of, um, a lot of my writing has been quite slow. Um, sort of, you know, slow-paced songs. Um, there's some that are quite upbeat, but a lot of it I think has been to do with with, um, again, like grief, uh, because as I said, like, my granddad only passed away at the end of June, um, and at some level I think because I had festivals and I had all these different interviews and tours and whatever, I didn't allow myself to, um, to stop. I think I, I didn't allow myself the time to just sit and think, um, because I think I was actually scared to, to be honest. Um, I didn't as soon as I'd stop, then it would be real. Um, I think I had a real disconnect with myself, um, during that time, um, because I thought I wouldn't be able to continue with what, what had, you know, was planned in the diary, or— and I didn't want to let anybody down. So I thought, well, I'll keep going, keep going, keep going. And then I did stop, and I hit a point and thought, oh, oh dear God, well, this is, this is what's happened. So I think, um, A lot of my writing at the moment has been to do with that. I don't know if any of it will be released or will come out because I think it's more of a, I guess, a personal diary, a sense like, you know, people have journals. I think that's what this is. So, Rosie, we have to finish, I'm afraid, because we could talk as we have in the past for a long time. How can people find you? People can find me on Instagram @RosieSmithOfficial, on Facebook @RosieSmithOfficial, on TikTok @RosieSmithOfficial. Rosie Smith Official, um, and on Spotify, Apple Music, um, is, is again Rosie Smith, um, or Rosie Smith Official. It's been an absolute joy talking to you. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. You can find me on mariakempinska.com. I look forward to my next program, and it's been an absolute thrill talking to you, Rosie.