Your Mind Matters With Maria Kempinska – Scott Wright & Taryn Johnston, Overcome Personal Assault

Welcome to your mind matters. I'm Dr. Maria Kampinska and I have studied mental health for many years, not only to help individuals understand themselves, but also to help prevent destructive behavior. Before I introduce my guest today, who will join in the discussion of what does it take to stop and overcome personal assault, I'd like to tell you of an amazing offer that men's radio station, along with women's radio station who are in collaboration with Mental Health Solutions in business, are offering £100,000 worth of mental health courses for the amazing NHS and frontline workers. So any NHS and frontline workers who want to go to one of the sites and enter in the code, you have a choice of a number of mental health courses that will help you in your future, future development. And now I'm pleased to introduce two very successful guests. Taryn Johnston, who has an independent publishing company, is a lecturer and a speaker and many other wonderful talents. And Scott Wright, actor, singer, producer and well known for his role in Coronation street and many top films. But before we can start our discussion, can I ask you both to tell your stories? And first of all, we'll start with you. Taryn, good morning. Actually, good afternoon now. Thank you for having me on. So, looking at abuse, it has so many different faces. And throughout my life, to be fair, it's been a factor in my life from before I was even born. And it's quite interesting. I was chatting to my partner over the weekend about how my own life has mirrored my mum's. My father was an alcoholic and was abusive and he beat my mum very, very often. As soon as he'd had a drink, he would become violent. And quite interestingly, he beat my mum while she was heavily pregnant with me. And once I was born, he could never hold me. I would cry and become very, very distressed if he even picked me up or came near me. And he always used to say to my mum, what's wrong with that child? Why will she never connect with me? So I had no relationship with my father at all. He left when I was one, much to the whole family's relief. And so I was brought up with a single mum, which in the 70s was still very much frowned upon. But my mum worked two jobs to keep a roof over our heads, to pay the mortgage, sometimes three jobs if she could manage it. And she brought my brother and I up to be incredibly independent, because on one occasion he'd beaten her so badly they thought she wouldn't recover. He damaged her gallbladder. She had gallbladder removal. And he Broke her jaw, her nose, several times. But in this one occasion he beat her so badly they actually had a priest next to her bed because they didn't think she was coming out. And it scared my mum, it scared her a great deal. Not so much of violence, but the fact that she could have left us and we weren't prepared. So throughout our upbringing it was very much being taught how to be independent, how to cope if she wasn't there. So from a very early age, you know, we were taught to cook and clean and iron and be self sufficient very much. I was lucky. I spent my weekends with my grandparents who were very, very loving and gave me some of the, I suppose, fun aspects that Mum couldn't because she was always working. And as I got older, my mum remarried when I was 11. She met my stepdad when I was 11 and he's the only man who's ever been a father to me. I call him my dad. As totally different to my own father as you could possibly get. But I watched my mum's relationship. She'd been on her own for 10 years at that point. Bringing us up and letting somebody close to her was very, very hard. And even to this day, if they've been married now 30, gosh, 35 years, I think, been together almost 40, and she'll still say if they have a big row, do you know what? I'd be better off on my own. I liked it better than I was on my own. And it's quite funny that she's never been able to let go of that need for independence. So through my own life, whether or not I was seeking some kind of male approval, I don't know. But very early on I encountered all the wrong sort. My schooling, I didn't perform as I was expected. I was, I think they put me down for 13 or 14, zero levels and I scraped through with four, spending too much time in the pub and nightclubs and doing all the things I shouldn't have been doing at 15 and I got involved with the wrong people. I suffered abuse at a very, very young age. At 13, in fact, I was raped over a period of seven or eight weeks. He was my mum's boss's son and I didn't feel I could tell my mum because I knew she would lose her job. And I also knew I couldn't tell my brother, who's four and a half years older than me, because he was just going into the RAF and I knew if I told him he would have gone after this chap and he would have probably lost his chance to join the raf. So I didn't tell anybody and I allowed it to continue because I didn't. I was 13 and I didn't know any different, but I thought it was my fault. Looking back now, I can, you know, I've managed to put that to bed in my own head as it not being my fault, but it set me on a path that was very, very damaging. It totally affected my own self worth, led me to believe I wasn't. Wasn't of any value unless it was for a physical sense. And I got married at 21. That relationship broke down after we've been together five years. We were married 17 months and I found out I had a phone call saying he'd had an affair. So again, that has kind of hit my own self worth. Interesting with that one. I didn't feel like I was appalled that my marriage was over. I felt that my best friend had betrayed me. It was a very strange state of mind. And in a short period I met my children's father and I think I was going through quite a traumatic time and hadn't realised and didn't see the signs. And I ended up in a very abusive relationship. And interestingly, my children would say they'd wished that their dad would give them a good hiding rather than the two hours that he spoke at them about what the problem was. And he was a master manipulator. He could tell you things, make you believe things. And over the course of the five years we were together, he managed to make me believe that I was of no value whatsoever. And I'd gone from having a really serious career in London. I was one of the youngest project managers of a global international company. I was earning a phenomenal amount of money for the time I was there. And I went from that to being an administrator in a factory, gaining two stone and believing I had no value. It came to a head when my youngest was three and I discovered that he was trying to take the children from me. We had a massive row one night and I'm ashamed to say that I lashed out at him and I realized that he had driven me to his level. You know, I'd been used to the abuse from him, but for me to do it back showed that I needed to get out. The final straw came where he. I had my eldest in my arms and he hit the wall next to my head while my son was in my arms. And I just knew it was escalating and I had to get out and I left one day with my two boys and my handbag and their teddy bears. And I realized that he had put things into place, should I go? And he put the injunction out against my mum, my brother, my best friend. So he cut off all avenues of places I could go for safety. And I remember finding a caravan in the middle of a field that was kind of a let out and spending the night in the caravan. The boys had got very little money, got no change of clothes, and sitting there in the dark waiting for the police to knock on the door to arrest me for taking my children. He'd managed to convince a judge that I was going to take them to Australia. I didn't have a passport. They didn't have a passport. He knew this, he knew that I had no way of taking them out of the country. I certainly didn't have any enough money to take them out of the county, let alone the country. And I had to wait for my solicitor to get into court the following day to remove the injunction. And we then had years and years of abuse. The judge granted us shared care, which meant they lived a week with me and a week with him. So they would have a week of stability, routine and healthy food, doing their homework, and then they go back to him. And his attitude was very much, you do what you choose. You have a mind and a thought process of your own. If you want to do your homework, do it. If you want to eat, you eat. If you want to eat rubbish, eat rubbish. When you go to bed, you go to bed. So they had a totally different upbringing week on week. And he would tell them many horrific things. And I'll be honest with you, it's not a time that I'm particularly proud of either. I know looking back, I would have done it very differently, but he accused me of abusing the children, of not taking care of them properly, of putting work first. It made me laugh because he didn't work. From the point where my eldest was nine months old and I was always the one that brought the money in, which is why we got shared care in the end, was because the judge said if the situation were reversed and I was the man, then it would be expected that the one that wasn't working was the one that would look after the children. Did you have to pay maintenance to him? No, because we had shared care, I didn't end up paying maintenance, but it was always me that bought their uniforms and their, their clothes, their shoes, everything. He contributed very little, but he took me back to court every couple of years to try and it Was never really about wanting the boys full time. I will never say he didn't love the boys because he did, but they were power play with him. Everything was about winning, Everything was about him having control and about him being the winner. And he never became the winner because he never got what he wanted. And this went on for years. He would do awful things like park outside the house and just sit and stare in the window. And when I called the police, he told the police that I was refusing to allow him to see them and that I told the boys that the police would arrest them and were scary men that, you know, to terrify them away from the police. The police came in and gave me a lecture about scaring the children, about the police, and I said, that's not the case. I've called you. Because he sat outside my house revving his engine, intimidating me, shouting, let the boys out. Let the boys out. It's eight o' clock at night, they should be in bed. And I've called you. Do you honestly think I would have called you if I'm telling the children that the police are scary? So he had a way that could make anyone believe what he wanted them to believe. He convinced my best friend that I was going to take the children to Australia so she wouldn't help me. And when I sat down and I spoke to her about it afterwards, she said, you know, now, looking back, I realized that it was absolute nonsense. But at the time, he was so convincing and he always was. He was very, very convincing. There'd be times I'd listen to him and I'd think, he must be right, I must be this dreadful, awful person. And it took years, 10 years. He actually convinced my youngest son that I was the devil incarnate, that I was controlling and manipulating him and convince him to go and move, to be with him in Norwich when he was 11. And it was the hardest thing I ever did. But my youngest was. He was hormonal, he was vulnerable and he didn't want to hear anything I had to say. He believed his father through and through. And it took my youngest six years before he was able to say, this isn't what I want and can I come home? And he's now been back for two years now, totally understands and sees the situation for how it really was. But he's suffered from his own abuse, his own mental torment. Now, you think I'd learnt from that, but I didn't. From that relationship, I went into another one which was even more controlling and abusive. And it took me until just three years ago to say no, enough. By that time I'd got two businesses set up. I was completely independent. The children were old enough to fend for themselves but it took me until that time to be able to look in the mirror and say, no, you deserve better and you are worth something and you can do this. You don't need anybody else to put you down and you're not going to let anybody put you down again. But it took until I was 47. Interestingly, I didn't tell my mum what had happened when I was 13 until I was 40. She still now finds that very hard to deal with. So there's been a lot gone on. But what I would say in terms of the abuse is for me, for the experience that I've had, the mental abuse was far, far, far harder than any of the punches, slaps and shoves that I've received. They're over fairly quickly and once the bruises have gone, you can get past that but the mental effects stay with you far longer. Very powerful. Taryn, I cannot thank you enough for telling us the story. Before I ask some questions, I'd like to move over to you. Scott. Hi. Can you tell us your stories? Well, yeah, I mean, you invited me on the show because of an incident that had happened in London, didn't you? So, yeah, I was and it was not, this is not the first time this actually happened. I seem to always be in the right place or the wrong place, whatever you want, you want to call it. But I was walking through probably the right place for the people. Yeah. But I was walking through Shepherd's Bush past the tube. It was very, very busy and there was this guy and I just saw him a few feet in front of me and he full on punched a woman in the head as hard as he could. She fell over. He was also attacking a 17 year old girl. So I kind of had a choice where I either let that one go or, or do something. What I didn't know is that the guy had been put in prison for stabbing someone years ago. So he was quite a dangerous individual. But the one thing that I noticed about the whole situation which only probably lasted 20, 30 seconds, was that nobody actually did anything and I was the only person to actually stand up and chip in. And you know, men punching women, I can't really think there's an incident where that could ever happen. So I got in between them in a really non violent way. I didn't want to start a fight. What's the point? He then swore at me. I kind of stood my ground and he went. Now, as it turns out, the guy didn't know them. It was just a completely random attack. It kicked the 17 year old girl previous to that when she was crossing the road. So the mum had confronted him and he punched her in the face several times. So, yeah, so that's my experience. And I had another experience years before that where four youths were jumping on an old man's head and I got threatened with a bottle. So I've had a little bit of, little bit of form when it comes to violent incidents. I guess it's stepping in and doing something about it. But you also went to court, didn't you? I did go to court, yeah. Which is a big deal nowadays. Yeah. And the judge, it was very flattering. The judge said, he thanked me for taking the time to actually A, go to court but also B, to step in. Because when we watched the cctv, you know, I'd seen it in a different way, but when we actually had to watch it in court, it was literally there was loads of people around doing nothing. Which it struck me, I just thought, you know, there was loads of big guys there who could have stepped in and didn't do anything. So, yeah, so went to court and he got these, got 12 weeks in prison and that's the end of that and that's the end of that matter. And luckily, you know, he's got a custodial sentence out of it. But it was a shocking thing to see. Really bad, really bad. And you say that he didn't know the woman he attacked. He didn't, he didn't know them. And like I say, I just think beating on females if you're a guy is just the worst thing you can do. You know, it's shocking. But you know, I think there's, as Taryn was saying before, there's lots of other forms of abuse which go on in relationships and mental abuse like you've suffered from is. You're probably right, it's probably worse, you know, in many regards. I just think that I wanted you to come on, obviously, Scott, because you have stepped in and seen firsthand how a man can treat a woman. And I'm sure it's not the only time we see a lot more of it. And just to give some statistics before we go into delving in a little bit more of your story, Taryn, because it's so powerful. And your opinion as well, Scott, as a brave man who steps in because there aren't many of you around anymore. But sadly. But on the various, you know, sort of mental health sites and sites for domestic and other abuse, they say there's about 1.3 million in 2017, 1.3 million women who were abused, and in the region of 685,000 men who were abused by women. Yeah. And I believe it must be escalating because now we're doing numbers on both men and women who are abusive. So we're now recognizing that both take a part of this. And if you go to the extreme, you then have Bread and Rose west that go even further when they're not monitored. But, Taryn, just coming back to you, when you grew up and you had heard these stories about your father, is that where you believed, where your feelings of worthlessness came in? No, I don't think so. I mean, I think growing up with nothing, you do tend to have feelings of whether or not you have a value. I think it does. Certainly when you're told and you're sort of sneered at for not having a dad, then that does put you into a certain mindset. But, no, I don't think I felt it quite as strongly until after the assault, because it was at that point I really went off the rails. Right. And do you feel if that had happened to you nowadays, you would have someone to turn to, or was it of that time? I think it was. I'm sure now. And I'd like to think that if anything had happened to my kids, they would have been able to have come to me and said something. But at the time, the circumstances were such. I know partly because we've been brought up to be so independent that I, you know, it was something I felt I've got to deal with. I told a very close friend because, unfortunately, I found that I was pregnant. And at 13, that wasn't quite what was wanted. So we decided that we would do something to make that go away, which it did. So there was an awful lot of trauma there. But I just felt it was my responsibility to protect my family because I knew my mum couldn't afford to lose her job. And I knew more than anything, I mean, I hear, I worship my brother. So the thought of doing anything that would prevent him from going on and getting the career that he wanted, he'd been in trouble himself. And this was a kind of a second chance for him. And I wasn't going to be the reason that that didn't happen. So I took it upon myself to protect them. Before I ask you a question, Scott, because you've got an 11 year old girl. Can I just ask you, Taryn, you've got this dynamic personality that is not only able to do things independently but you can take problems, you can translate them into something, transform them and make them go away and also overcome them. Is that part of your personality? You've always had that? Yeah, I think so. I think, and I mean I do credit my mum with this because my mum was very, very much the doer. My mum made sure that she, she solved problems if we didn't have money, she made things, you know, she would, she could make a meal out of anything and that was what she kind of brought us up with, that ability to make the most of the situation that you're in. So you know, she is an absolute hero as far as someone to look up to. Even though I know that there are things that probably, you know, if you analyze the whole situation, it wasn't the right sort of mindset. But I have a bad word said about it because she's, you know, she's done so well. But yeah, that. So that ability to just roll your sleeves up, get on with it and sort it out comes from her very much from her and I suppose my grandparents as well, you know, we're all doers so that's where it comes from. And Scott, just to ask you, you've got a daughter. Yeah. Can you tell us about her and how you protect her in a way because it's so powerful to have a father that does protect a daughter. Yeah. It's funny actually because I've not got a bad temper in any way but I suppose, you know, having your own kids and stuff, you do want to protect them. And there was an incident which, which we laugh about now actually but it's going back about five years and we were driving through the center of Huddersfield. We always go on a Wednesday to KFC and eat our KFC there after school. So I picked her up and was with my girlfriend at the time and some guys were driving in a car like really aggressively behind us. So we exchanged a few words and then we got into the center of Huddersfield and they pulled up by the side of us and kind of blocked us in. So they started swearing and shouting at us and then they said something about my girlfriend, then they said something about my skinny kid in the back and I just flipped, I just completely flipped. There was hundreds of people around. I jumped out of the car, karate, kicked his car, punched the window. They drove off. There was two of them, it's two against one. They drove off really fast. Tires, smoking. So, you know, she always. She always looks up to me because of that. It's a really good story to tell her friends as well, actually. But when it comes to, you know, like, Lexi. Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I'd. You know, I think like any parent, we'd do anything to protect them, wouldn't we? Absolutely. But talking about, you know, sort of using strength, I always remember when I had a break in. In my house, I did think afterwards, what would have happened had the burglar gone upstairs to my children, how I've defended them. Taran, do you ever see a reason to use violence against violent people? Yeah, absolutely. Taran, have you got a short fuse? No, I've got. I do snap, but only. But only sort of verbally. I'll. My children have learned that when I go really quiet, that's the point where I'm getting mad. But I. So I never used to believe in this whole. There's a red mist that comes down and you just don't know what you're doing. Until my ex pushed and he pushed and he pushed and he pushed and I gave in and I gave in and everything he demanded, I said yes. And he finally, you know, I can't even remember what it was. He. It was something so outrageous. And I just recall picking up this bag next to me and swinging it at his head and that was it. And then I sort of came back into myself and I'd got him up against a wall and I was. I immediately felt sick. I was horrified. And I took a step back and he looked at me and he smirked and he said, you need anger management. Wow. That's a massive case of gaslighting right there, isn't it? It's awful. I've been in situations with girlfriends who obviously never hit or anything, would never do that, but just being followed around constantly, gone on at mad behavior, impossible to sort an argument out. You're giving. I'm saying sorry for something I've not done because it just makes it easier. And it still goes on and goes on and goes on and you get pushed to the point, you know, but you've always got a choice, I guess. You just got to walk away, haven't you? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'd always walked away. I'd always just said, yeah, no, I'm not going to go to it. And I remember just. I just turned and walked away. I got in the car and I drove to my mum's and I sat down and I said to. To my mum and dad, And I said, I am so ashamed. I am so appalled at what I've done. And I remember my dad looking at me. My dad's. He's a real man's man. He's a builder. Huge hands. I always say he's got hands like grips, but I've only ever seen him lose his temper twice and he's been in our family for 40 years. And I remember him looking at me and saying, taryn, the man could turn a saint to violence. I'm a mess. Did your dad not fancy going around and dealing with him? He did, but to be fair, my ex was more scared of my mum. My mum remember looking at him and saying, I see you. I see you for exactly who and what you are, and you pull the wool over my eyes. And he said to my mum, don't cross me or you'll never see your grandkids. Wow. Wow. So, you know, he kind of hamstrung my mum. But I remember going around to see my grandparents. I say my grandparents were. I was my granddad's princess with no. No doubt about it. I remember going to see him and he was 80, 82, and he'd had a stroke and he walked with a cane and I walked in and I'd got bruises and he saw them and it was the point where he was threatening to take the boys off me. And I remember him saying to me, nan, Ivy, get the car. That's it. I'm going around there and waving his walking stick and saying, I'm gonna have him. I'm gonna have him, like, see her granddad. Calm down. My granddad was of that generation where, you know, yeah, I'm just gonna. I'll go and sort him out. And you know what? I think if I let him get in the car, he would have done. But, yeah, there was a time when police couldn't do anything until they got proof. It's only in the past two years, two, three years, that they've actually stepped into domestic violence situation, domestic abuse and violence situations and taking them seriously. But when my father had Alzheimer's, and this is a number of years ago now, and a chap used to walk home with him and befriended him and eventually started pushing into his house and stealing things from him and pushing him around. And I called the police and they said, they can't do anything because we have no proof. And I phoned a solicitor that was one of my business solicitors, and he said, maria, have you got any big brothers? Because that's the only way you're Going to deal with this chap? Yeah. So at what point should the law turn a blind eye? Because we've had situations of the chap who kept being burgled and eventually he shot the young guy in the back. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I think you've got a right to defend yourself if somebody's in your home and, you know, and threatening your family. 100%, you know, I think you really have. I think if anyone burst into my door and my daughter was here, it wouldn't end well, you know, so, you know, in them situations, you don't even have time to call the police, I guess. What about you, Taryn? Do you think, had your ex been confronted by somebody who was stronger than him, do you think it would have made a difference? No, not at all. He was, as I said, master at manipulation and very, very clever with his words. I remember one of my friends did sort of approach him and stand up to him and he turned everything round. So that almost goaded him. Kept very, very calm and just goaded him and he just wouldn't. He wouldn't rise to it and he would always make you feel like you were the aggressor, you were the problem. He'd done nothing wrong. So, no, it would not have made a difference whatsoever. I do recall my mum going for him once and she got right in his face and my dad actually got hold of her by the kind of back of her trousers and scruff of her neck and sort of held her back because she was going for him. And again he just looked at her and said, you won't see the boys, you behave like that. I'll make sure they'd never see you and they don't want anything to do with you. But was he the sort of guy, though, that if someone did lay one on him, he wouldn't. He would fight back? Oh, yeah. So he was. He was violent himself in that sense. He would attack someone back. Yeah, because most bullies, when you punch them, they run away. Yeah. No, he. I mean, my eldest, their relationship broke down when he was 15 because my eldest had decided he wanted to do mixed martial arts and my. Even though he saw very little of him, he sort of said, no, you're not going to do that. I'm not going to allow it. There's not really a great deal you can do, you know, you live two and a half hours away, so if he wants to do this, he's going to do it and I actually support it. It's teaching him discipline and he Went to visit him one weekend and they played golf and he goaded him around the whole of the golf course. And then when they got back, he grabbed my son in his genitalia and said, these ain't big enough for you to do, mma. Wow. And Rowan put him in a headlock and put him on the floor. And then he called the police on him and said he was violent, had him locked up. So it's an insane. A crazy story. Crazy story. There's a number of people that have been, you know, particularly, they've been dealt with with domestic abuse and just general abuse, and they go through therapy and eventually the penny drops. And I've had people in therapy, but because very often they don't realize that they have an effect on others. And it's not until I consistently say, how do you think your partner feels about the way you're behaving? How do you think this is affecting somebody else in your workplace or in your family, or how's it affecting your children? And they start thinking eventually, oh, my goodness, it's not just about me, I must have an effect on somebody else. Do you think had he gone into therapy, it might have helped? And also, what sort of upbringing did he have that enabled him to do this? Taran, that makes me laugh. No, he wouldn't have gone into therapy because he didn't believe it. Didn't believe that anything could. Well, in fact, he didn't believe there's anything wrong with him. So why would he need therapy to begin with? He grew up the product of an alcoholic, abusive father and a overly soft mother. Did he use that as an excuse, though? No, what he used to excuse was spinal surgery. He'd had spinal surgery when he was younger and that was the reason he hadn't achieved all the things he wanted to achieve and couldn't do all the things he wanted to do. And he could have played cricket for England and he could have been a famous artist artist, but he couldn't stand at the way it came to do his A level art. They wouldn't allow him to stand at the E or sit down at the ease, whichever way around it was. So he failed his art and that. That ruined his career as a designer. Yeah, there was always an excuse. He had a chip on his shoulder the size of England. I mean, it was ridiculous. But he bullied his mum and he bullied his older brother. His older brother was a lot softer than him. So the bullying had gone on from a very, very early age. But I'm quite a spiritual person. And he hated that. He hated that I had a belief, and he saw that as a weakness. And this will sum up the man for you. He actually said, there is no such thing as any God. The only God you will ever need is me. Wow. Wow. There we are. So, no, no, therapy of any kind would not have helped because he didn't have a problem. Yeah, yeah. Omnipotent narcissist. And all people like that want to do is destroy everybody else. But Taran, he was a bully at school. And something to ask you as well, Scott. You know, they had dealt with this at school. I don't know that he was a bully at school. He was a bully at home. I don't know if he was a bully at school. So, I mean, he was. He was very sort of sporty and very intelligent. So I don't know. I don't really know an awful lot about his schooling, to be honest. I just know that he was a bully at home. And something was said about his mother being too soft. And we hear this over and over again. It's much like the craze. They didn't have a dad and the mother was incredibly soft. Yeah. And it gave them almost permission to continue behaving like that because of the fear of engaging in that way with a son who is stronger than them. How do you feel about that, Scott? I'm just trying to think of people in my life that I know that have narcissistic and bullying. And I can think of actually a few people and obviously can't name names, but a couple of them, you know, had very well, always been told really good things, constantly never being told off by the pet, by the mum, bit like the craze, like you say. And they. They have turned out to be narcissistic. And it's very. I mean, going back over the years, I've had relationships where you're tearing your hair out because you never have. The other person is always right all the time. And that's a form of abuse in itself. Do you know what I mean? Throwing tantrums, never accepting responsibility for their actions. It's a frustrating way to live your life, you know? And again, it's a form of abuse. So, yeah, I think there is definitely something in that, without a doubt. And do schools deal with this enough and can they deal with this? I don't really. I mean, from my experience of schools at the moment, is only junior school when I take Lexi. And I don't really. She's never mentioned that there's any form of bullying goes on at all. I think it probably applies more, doesn't it, to high school and stuff, when kids get older and start getting jealous and start forming their own personalities. I used to get bullied. I went to a private school and left the local school and went to private school. So my mum used to make me walk through the centre of where we lived with a blazer on. So I used to get really, really abused. Yeah. And always shouted out and called. So it did go on when I was a kid and I used to get regular beatings, sometimes off the older lads. What about you, Taryn? Do you think schools should be enabled to do more for children in behaviour? Yeah, I do. I mean, I'm going to sound like one of the old Yorkshireman types here when I say, in our day. You didn't. No, I mean, I think teachers now don't have the same respect that they used to have, same as the police don't have the same respect. And I don't think that children are given the same consequences. They're not taught consequences. They are not every child, obviously, because it depends on the parents, but a lot of children are, Molly. Coddled and not showing that there are consequences to their action. And I think that school is then a little bit hamstrung with what they can do in terms of tackling bullying. Yes, there is more they can do, but I don't quite know how if they're not given the powers that they need. A lot of bullying goes on online now as well, isn't there? Yeah, absolutely. It's not really a physical thing anymore, is it? It's more, you know, constantly calling someone on Facebook and there's so many examples of little girls that have been abused and killed themselves because they can't take what all the cat calling, the name calling. How do you introduce that to Lexi? How do you talk to her about that? About. Well, we don't. Online bullying. She's only just got a phone and. And she wouldn't. She's not really interested in stuff like TikTok. She hates that. And she doesn't. She's not interested in getting an Instagram account or anything. And I wouldn't let her anyway. You know, she's 10. I know her friends have got it, but they can communicate, but they've got little WhatsApp groups, so they communicate through that. And yeah, we've never needed this conversation about it because it's just not at the moment. Luckily, there's nothing going on there and she was quite scared, actually. She Went on an app. They're all playing an app, and somebody, I don't know if it's a pedophile or somebody, had hacked into it and started talking to some of the little girls. And she was very, very scared after that. And so she's not really interested in social media, all them sorts of games where people can just, you know, speak to you and potentially bully you, I guess. And did your boys ever have bullying online, Taran? No, not at all. I was very lucky with both my boys. You know, I said to them, they could tell me anything. We had one instance of physical bullying at school, and, you know, I went to school and I dealt with it. But to be fair, both my boys sort of looked after themselves and they dealt with the situation. But in terms of online, I think, because they were very sporty and they were just that little bit older. So the mobile phone thing didn't really come in when they were young enough for it to be of an issue. So, no, we've not seen that. I do think it's probably a lot different for girls. And, you know, I feel for Scott because I don't think I would want to be bringing up a girl in today's society. It must be so, so hard. I think the hardest thing is also girls are very intimidating to other girls at school. I've seen bullying at schools where girls really turn on each other much more than boys do. Boys will have a fight, they'll fight it out, and it'll all be over and done with and they'll all go down, you know, and have a, you know, sort of go down to the sports field afterwards or something. But girls are consistent in schools. Intimidating, calling names online, you know, sort of over the phone and very coercive. And I think that's incredibly dangerous that that isn't stopped. Yeah. It's difficult to root out, though, I guess, sometimes, isn't it? That's the problem. Yeah. I mean, I mean, kids are inherently cruel and they always have been. Yeah, they're vile creatures. Given the opportunity, you mean? Yeah, yeah. There is a. The sort of survival of the fittest and the whole sort of weakness preying on the weaker ones. I don't know how that gets into children at such an early age, but it does. And if it's left unchecked, that's how progressively becomes worse and worse. But you see, in the playground, every generation has it. And the playground now, unfortunately, has become digital, which has made it more invasive, more insidious, because you can't see it, you know, you walk through, as a teacher or a parent, walking through a playground and hearing people, hearing children say unpleasant things, you can stop it and you can address that. I mean, I was a football coach for seven years and seeing children interact within teams, so if they were picking on somebody, you could deal with it and you'd point it and you point that behavior out and say, why was wrong? And that's why I think playing sports is so important for children, because it does teach them how to share and integrate together. But when it's online, nobody can see it. And, you know, I draw on my own experience here that when you're of that age, there is a certain amount of feeling of being ashamed that it's happening. So you don't want to tell people because you don't want people that love you to see you the way other people are seeing you, or to know that that's. Yeah, as a child, you want your parents or your siblings to think that you are loved as they love you. They don't want them to be hurt or upset because you're hurt and upset. So children are very good at hiding that. And I think that's why the online bullying is such a terrible thing. Years ago, when kids were at school, parents used to get involved. There was always, you know, coming back to your story about looking after your daughter, Scott. There was always the dad, you know, my dad's bigger than yours. My dad will come down and sort you out. Do you think we've lost quite a lot by not allowing dads and mums to get involved in sorting out each other's families as well? I don't mean by sorting out, by, you know, becoming physical, but just having that respect. Coming back to that point, it's very tricky. It's very, very tricky area that these days, I think. Do you know what I mean? It's very difficult. I just. Luckily, I get. I get on well with all Lexi's friends and their parents and stuff. But I do know some of them have been squabbling, mainly the parents and getting involved. And there's been. There's been fisticuffs here and there, but we live in a different age now. It's very difficult to, you know, if some kids being really badly behaved, you know, something has to be said, I guess. But people have really get on the high horse if you accuse their children of doing something. So parents really need to be able to recognise their own children's behaviour and they're not really given the guidance to recognise. So, Taryn, coming back to a Couple of things I wanted to say that in when I was studying Freud, there's something, and I love this term. It's called zwang, Z W A N G. And it's the compulsive need to re experiencing an event or a way of being until you gain power over it. And it's almost. That's what you had to do in your relationships to find your own power over these. This sort of behavior with men in your life. So remember that term zwang, because I love that. But could you recognize. And Scott, you know, when you were out on the street. But Taryn, could you recognize early signs to give warnings to people who are listening of behavior that is coercive, that is destructive? Yeah. So the big one for me that should have made me realize that there was going to be a control issue was we'd only had two or three dates, and I went away for a long weekend and I asked him if he would pop in and feed my cat. And when I came home from that weekend away, he completely reorganized the furniture in my lounge and said, I think you look better this way now. If, you know, if I'd been stronger, I'd have gone, I don't care whether it looks better or not. What the heck are you doing? And now I would. I certainly would say on your bike. I think anybody who tells you that you're not good enough, anybody that stops you from seeing your friends or takes things away from you. So, you know, in the early stage of our relationship, he made me get rid of my cats because he said his mum was allergic and she couldn't come around and see the baby. I'd had my cat for seven or eight years at that point, and that was heartbreaking. But looking back, it was just the removal of all the things that mattered to me. He then moved us into his mum's house. So I then had no home of mine. I'd gone from having my own house to living with somebody else and being under the else's roof. So he, over time, just shipped away everything that I had. So the sides to look out for. Is that kind of behavior making you feel like they're the only person that you need and that you've got to rely on them for everything. And the first time there is any form of violence, any kind of violence whatsoever, don't believe that it won't happen again or it was your fault, you made me that angry or any of that. Walk away. Just walk away. For me, it would be complete unreasonable behavior. Like, remember an incident years ago When I was with someone and I'd gone to the cash till I'd come back to the bar and she was in a mood, she wouldn't tell me why. She stormed off. I walked around asking what was up and then I said I'm going home. Then she said, no you're not. Then I said, well I'm going back up to the apartment where we were staying. She said, no you're not. So there was never a city. I couldn't sort the situation out by talking like a normal human being. I shouldn't have stayed with that person after that. But I did, you know, things like. As well. Warning signs for me would be now like why are you wearing them shoes? Like they don't look right. As long as you're not like wearing a clown suit. The shoes look alright. Do you know what I mean? Little things like that. And that drives you. I don't know what that is. I think that's a form of controlling behavior in itself. Yeah. You know, 100. But just. Just to. Just not being able. Just a total unreasonable behavior. Not being able to speak to someone, sort stuff out unless it get it and then it has to turn into some massive issue, a massive war. And the only way I. The only thing I can do is walk away, you know. But so for me it would be. It would be like that. I dated someone last year for a couple of weeks and she was. She would message me, I'd message you saying that was an amazing night, I really like you. And she messaged me back saying I don't think you've driven and ambitious enough. I don't think you're this and that. I don't want to be a caretaker. This is only after two weeks. And I told her I didn't want to see her again after that and she absolutely went nuts. And so it's kind of. It's that kind of behavior that just put. And it's. And it's also. It's projection. You know, their issues, projecting them. She might have not been driven and ambitious. She might not have been in the right place. But you're trying to project it onto me and make me feel bad. So that's what I'd avoid. That's very common in that behavior. They also make themselves into the victim. Correct? Yes. But the rest of the world, coming back to your point about your ex Taryn, him going around telling everybody that it's you and that's part of the behavior. So the world has to understand that not everybody who says they're the victim are really the victim? No. Correct. Yeah, correct. You know, because very often they could be the ones doing the damage. And I think a lot of therapists need to understand this as well. You know, what is the reality, what is the truth? Because we've fallen into the trap as a society for saying, oh, look, they said they're sorry, or, oh, their father or mother treated them badly. Now, in my opinion, yes, that can happen and it's tragic, but it's. You've got to take responsibility for yourself, go into therapy, there's enough therapists around and help yourself to change your life rather than feeling sorry and allowing them to behave in any way they like to everybody else. Do you agree with that or do you think we should continue to just allow people to behave? However, I don't see how you can't stop people's behavior. I mean, you can't monitor everybody. As much as the government probably would like, we can't monitor how people behave. Behave. And very often you don't see it. And part of the other problem, and I wonder whether Scott saw this, but when someone's being abused, although I think with the incident with Scott, it wasn't a relationship, so maybe not, but you sometimes find that the person being abused stands up for the abuser. So it's then very, very difficult. Police see this all the time. They. They get called out to domestic abuse situations and the person being abused doesn't want to complain or even worse, you know, becomes aggressive towards those trying to take the person away. I've had that happen to me, actually, years ago. I'd stepped in when I was about 18, stepped in between a couple fighting and I just tried to stop it and she. And she. She slapped me across the face. I was trying to help. Yeah. My son said a similar thing. He saw one of his school friends get a smack in a pub and he went over and grabbed this guy. It's interesting. Both of my boys are very anti violence towards women. And he grabbed this guy and she was sort of hanging up and going, don't, don't hurt him, don't hurt him, don't hurt him. And, yeah, he was absolutely exasperated by that behavior because he said, you know, what are we supposed to do? You know, our instinct is to step in and protect you. You're asking us not to protect you. So it's very, very hard. So to monitor people's behaviour is a very difficult one, Ria. Yeah. And people have got to accept that they've got a problem as well, and that people who are narcissistic. Tend not to do that, do they? No. No, they never. No, never. I've got, you know, people from my past. There's no hope. There's no hope for them at all. It will never change unless somebody holds a mirror up or something external happens to make them realize. I must say, this conversation, this discussion can go on for such a long time because there's so many other areas, like the Stockholm syndrome. And, you know, why do people hang on to people who are abusive? Why do they feel they have to stay there? And why do we fall into the trap of believing that when we're being abused, it's our fault? And that's what happens consistently and over and over again in therapy. That somebody comes into therapy because they are the person that is being victimized. Yeah. Then you're dealing with the person that's already going through stuff, so they become stronger. And the only hope is that they can walk away the way you did, Taryn, because it's such a powerful thing to be able to walk away. And hopefully we can get more people like you, Scott, protecting people like Taran and the woman outside. Although, as far as I understand, you don't get a great deal of thanks. So I'm going to say thank you on behalf of everybody that you've helped and, you know, just being on the show today, to both of you, because it's such a powerful story from both of you and you have helped everybody. I'm sure that's listening. And just to say thank you to Taryn and Scott and hopefully we can continue this another time. And also I just want to remind everybody if they're a frontline worker or from the nhs, you can learn more about mental health for yourself by accessing the code to men's radio station and women's radio station. And join us again, please, for your mind matters. Thank you. Thank you.