Get Booked – Hira Ali, Her Way To The Top

Hello, I'm Hazel and this is Get Booked for Women's Radio Station, supporting women's emotional well-being. I hope you're all well and ready to get booked. And today I'm very pleased to have in the remote studio with me, uh, the entrepreneur, leadership expert, and author Hira Ali. And we're going to be talking about her book, Her Way to the Brace yourself, my lovelies, because you are going to be well and truly spoiled. I cannot wait, but there's not a chance I'm going to be able to squeeze in all the questions that I want to ask Hira. Hello, Hira, how are you? Hi, Hazel, I am very well, thank you so much, and thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I've just— I've been reading your book, and it's one of those ones where walking down the street kind of reading it and people have been looking at me and I'm going, "Aha, yep, yep, you know you want to borrow it." And I think it's one of those books that's completely buggered because I've been like, "Right, I need to make sure I remember to bring this point up, I want to make sure that I reiterate this part and this part." And your book, I must say, the structure is fantastic and it's got easy reading, even though it's based on honesty as well. It flows beautifully. You must be so incredibly happy with what you've achieved. Oh, thank you so much. I think this is like the best, uh, I think out of the whole thing, the best thing that has happened to me all is all the amazing reviews that I keep getting from women across the globe. Um, and I think this is— I— a lot of global influencers have also endorsed it and have had some amazing reviews, but it's literally like, you know, every week when people are sending their reviews, um, it's just such a great feeling, to be honest. And I think that's like the biggest success when, when people tell me this, that, you know, we were able to relate to the book, or we were highlighting the points, or we learned so much. I think it's just such a really, really nice feeling. What I did absolutely adore as well is the because it can be quite hard out there for women. Sometimes people don't want to share the secrets because they're like, it's hard enough getting here as it is without you all knowing how to do it. But you've basically just encompassed all the knowledge that you have from doing all the many talks and blogs and your experience working in various different countries. You put it all together in a book to help everybody and those that have come from different, you know, Walks of Life, and it, it really does encompass quite a lot. Um, can you explain the premise of the book to our listeners? All right, so basically, um, I have worked in 3 different countries. I'm originally from Pakistan, and that's when I started working as an HR manager, um, and that's, that's when I started training women for the first time. Mostly in my trainings there would be men, but I decided that on International Women's Day, literally 14 years ago, that I need to do something exclusively for women. So that's when I started researching and designing women-specific trainings. And the very first training which I did was called Revitalize and Rise, and this was for working women who were trying to balance work and home together. And the response was phenomenal. People, women loved it. And when I started doing more and more of these trainings, I used to see that there were specific trends and specific challenges and barriers that women were facing. And I thought, well, this was Asia, so it's probably you know, a lot of the challenges women face with their external challenges could be the environment, it could be the culture. Um, and I didn't pay much attention at that time, but I did enjoy doing all the trainings. And then I moved to Dubai in Middle East, and again I was doing a lot of trainings there. And the only difference in Dubai was that, yes, the culture was the same, but I was training 85% expats. Because as you know, in Dubai, um, it's a city which— it's a multicultural city with 85% expats, and a lot of them were, were Europeans and British, and I said, well, you know, the challenges seem to be the same. But again, I thought maybe it's to do with the country that— or the city that you live in, right? So the culture does play a role in that. And then literally 3 and a half years— all now nearly 4 years ago, when I moved to London, and I thought I'm moving to this really, you know, modern developed city where women will be breaking glass ceilings and everything is going to be amazing. And I remember the first week that I came, there was a women's march going on, and I was like, what's going on? And I, you know, I just realized that, you know, there were women who were fighting for the gender pay gap and lots of different issues. And I was like, what, really, here too? And then I realized that, you know, women across the globe, probably, I think this is something which is very gender-specific because having worked in 3 countries, I realized the challenges were quite similar. So then I decided to do a survey. I surveyed 300 women across the globe and I asked them about top challenges holding them back. So that's how this whole book I mean, this is, this is the basis of the book, a survey I did on, on women globally, 300 women. And of course, before that, I was in prior experience with working with women across the globe. And then when I came to London, I was doing, reaching out to a lot of women virtually as well, through webinars and podcasts and online coaching in US and Africa and different parts of the world. So that's how this book came to be, because I compiled the research and I realized that a lot of the challenges were very similar. I mean, some challenges were more profound in some of the countries, but of course more or less the challenges were quite similar. Yeah, yeah, and, um, and the thing is, this is what I said, the way that— the way you put the book together is that it really does cover all the different kinds of women out there as well. And one thing that I really wanted to mention is about how we need to have a little bit more compassion for each other and a bit more understanding, rather than just a working mum or somebody who chooses to stay at home, or whether somebody who chooses not to have children. Rather than pigeonholing everybody, we all need to kind of understand that we are women. It's— we're not— we're all different, we're all unique and fantastic in our own little way. But there seems to be— we need to call for less of women actually saying to each other, "Oh, well, you did that, so, you know," 'You've done it that way, so we're not really the same.' We're all in it together. No, I couldn't agree more. I think this is so important, and, you know, when I was— 14 years back when I started my career, I will be honest, there weren't a lot of women in the senior management role, and frankly speaking, I think a lot of women from that, from those times, or even earlier on, would realize that there was a sort of a queen bee culture where senior women weren't very supportive of, of junior women. And that really got to me because I was like, you know, I really do need female role models, and all I had were male role models. But thankfully, um, as the time went by, I realized that that culture is slowly disappearing and women are supporting each other. And now they are literally there for each other. They know that if we are going to, you know, if we have to do well or if we have to survive this whole, this whole gender equality fight, then we have to be in this together and we have to fight together and we have to support each other. And I think compassion is so important. Sometimes we tend to be extremely judgmental and we have opinions about everybody, like literally. There is in fact, um, this lady I quoted in, in this book who said that, you know, there's always a constant war going on between working moms and stay-at-home moms and moms who breastfeed and moms who do bottle milk and moms who, um, you know, do home-cooked food versus moms who are, you know, doing whatever, takeaways. So there's always a lot of like competition and judgment, but I feel that when we come from a place of compassion— and trust me, I mean, this has worked for me so many times working in different countries, working with so many people. I think the thing which really worked in my favor in my career was compassion, to be able to understand other person's point of view. And, um, and you know, these days, literally I have a lot of friends and colleagues, right? So we have our chats, and I— because it's a hard time, sometimes we as women get very triggered, right? Because we're already doing a lot of stuff, right? We're managing children, their household chores, you know, cooking and making sure there's enough grocery, making sure everybody is fed, making sure everybody, you know, everything is clean. So, and of course keeping them safe and healthy. So as you know, people are usually very triggered these days, and I do see sometimes, I do sense women getting very frustrated and annoyed, and they are literally, uh, just kind of obviously because they're triggered, so they say something mean, or they just, uh, you know, they're literally biting, which is understandable because, you know, we all are going through so much. And I think in it at this point, if all we could do is practice compassion, because everybody reacts and everybody's coping mechanism is very different. So, people react in different ways, people handle situations in different ways, and particularly women who are more prone to stress even compared to men, and they're doing obviously much more right now because everybody knows that the COVID impact has been on women more because, you know, they're obviously working more now and they're doing a lot of the home stuff now. So, it's very natural for women to be triggered. So, if we give people that space and we say, okay, fine, I understand that you were angry or you were upset, but I know that you're stressed, and let's forget about it and let's start afresh. And this has happened with me literally in the last few days, and the result has been brilliant because women are like, oh my God, thank you so much for understanding. And, you know, I was unreasonable, I— or I wasn't being reasonable, or I was just being— I was upset, so I think I lashed out. But then, you know, we started from fresh start and everything was fine. So sometimes we need to work from compassion, from a place of compassion, and just be forgiving. Understand that people really are going through a lot of, uh, I was okay, I was about to use the S-word, but so it's just like if we are, uh, more forgiving, more understanding, I think the world will just be a much better place to live in. Well, interestingly, one of the points that I want to highlight. It's one of the paragraphs from you in your book on page 168. I'm not sure where I read this quote, but it says it all: "It's hard to be a woman. You must think like a man, act like a lady, look like a young girl, and work like a horse." Yes, that is so Timmy. We're good at multitasking. However, likewise, page 49, you know, we're worried about fomo, missing out on this, or not achieving this goal. But, you know, we need to understand we can't always have it all. Not even men can have it all. But men need to be in on this kind of fight, getting this on their agenda too, because it's going to help them as well. You know, it is their issue as well. It is their daughters, it is their wives that are being affected. By this. And also, you know, we fight, we fight for more equality in the workplace, and men will appreciate that too. There's a lot of men that just, they don't know what their position is anymore. They're not allowed to take time off to help with looking after the children. There are companies that are getting more and more tolerant of this, but but about 6 years ago, where one of the men in the company, he turned around in the middle of the day and said, "My daughter's ill, I need to go and pick her up from the nursery," and the boss turned around and said, "Well, you've got a wife to do that, why can't she do it?" He says, "Well, she's a GP," and I'm not allowed to say who, but she's actually got somebody very high up, a very high politician coming in today for some tests, she has to be there. And the boss turned around and said, well, quite frankly, your wife shouldn't have children if she couldn't be bothered putting in the lion's share. Oh, can you not tell her? That is really sad. Oh my God, it is. You know what, it's not only a regular occurrence, you know, there are certain companies, especially the startups, are definitely more hands-on and more equal, but there are certain businesses, the types of industries where they're like, come on, if you're, if you're asking to actually have flexible working as a man, to go home and look after your children, men are dealing with this as well. So it's everybody's issue. No, absolutely. And I have written a lot of articles on this too, even after the book, about how males can be supportive. Because I think if we really need to get somewhere, and if you're really talking about equality and closing the gender gap, then men really need to be equally involved. In fact, I recently I recently did an article in Forbes on strategies for narrowing the gender pay gap, and one of the strategies which I recommend is— and which, I mean, this is not something which I personally recommend, the research has evidenced that, that those men who have availed the paternity leave, that has been really good, that has improved the father-child relationship, and that has also played a very important role in closing the gender gap. Because when Moms deliver kids, of course they're exhausted, right? And most of the time it's, it's understood and it's taken for granted that it's moms who are going to take the maternity leave, whereas even though the government has given the paternity leave, but a lot of fathers don't avail it. So, so a lot of organizations, especially in Europe, what they did was they introduced non-transferable rights for each parent to take leave in the first year of the child's birth. And this was such an important measure in gender, in gender equality. The only thing is, I feel it has to work both ways. Number one, the, the men should be comfortable about taking such leaves and to be able to support their wives and their spouses, the partners. And number two, the government should also take steps to ensure that they, they compensate men for the loss of the generally higher salary. Because a lot of times traditionally, a lot of people think, oh, you know what, I, I'll just go and work. This is, you know, the women can stay at home and the men can work. But no, if you really want to achieve, um, gender equality and close the gap, then, then everybody has work towards it. The men need to be equally involved. And there's so many ways, literally, in which men could be involved, literally right at work, you know, starting from giving credit, making sure that these women in their, in their boardrooms or in their meetings, everybody is listening to them. Because obviously everybody knows that women are regularly denounced at work, and, you know, they, they're talked over or their ideas are stolen. So if they could start with something as little as listening to women and not making assumptions and giving them credit and, you know, calling out inequality, I think we have— You tripped out a little bit there. Oh, but can you hear me now? Yes, we can. Sorry, you just tripped out for a little bit. I don't want to miss a word of what you've got to say. Sorry. So yeah, I said if men could, you know, if they could call out inequality, and if they could listen to women, and if they could give them credit, and if they could just do these basic things. Well, what I'm just gonna say here is there's a page actually that I really wanted to— oh, sorry, just while the recording's— there's a bit of a problem with your Wi-Fi. Are you there, Liz? Yes, can you hear me? Yes. Yes, I was just going to point out a particular point here on page 205, which is exactly what you were discussing anyway. This is a section from your book which reiterates that it's important for the government and for, you know, the rhetoric we are using in these such issues. This is what was written: when it's a mother caring for her children, it's called parenting, and when a father takes care of with children. It's called child arrangement. UK public policy also reinforces that the mother is a child's primary carer. Child benefits are paid to mothers while men still use the term babysitting to look after their own children. Women try their best to overcome these challenges, but as someone rightly noted, that the world has a way of reminding women that they are women and that the girls, that they are girls. Such a powerful statement and blatant reality as well. Yes, absolutely. And I think everybody would, would need to participate in this, and not just to— I mean, I know there's a lot of pressure, and we, we as women do suffer from internal challenges or, you know, gender-specific barriers. But once we've overcome barriers, we would need all the support that we can get from Male Allies, from the government, and even from the media, to be honest, because I think media plays a very important role in negative perpetuating these, um, you know, these, these perceptions about women that only women can do the household chores and men can't. So sexualizing women. So I think all this, if that stopped, um, and media also comes up and plays a very positive role in showing brave women or women or women who are doing a number of great things rather than just being in the kitchen and cooking. And I'm not saying that being in the kitchen or doing household chores is something which is which is not good, or which is not something women shouldn't do. I mean, yes, you could, but what I'm saying is only relegating women to specific tasks and roles is not good. So I think, you know, but let's remember here, and we know that the wine is kept in the kitchen, so I quite like being in the kitchen. I like to multitask and make sure that I am using the, uh, using my— I do, I absolutely adore cooking. But as a single mother, and quite a few of my friends think that I'm quite strict with my children, I've got two boys and I'm raising them to help and to understand that there are challenges. And there are a lot of working mums out there teaching kids about the ethics of equality in the workplace and to gain more household skills, breeding them to have new norms and levels of acceptability. I mean, even while we're having this conversation now, I've got a 10-year-old and 13-year-old boy— well, two boys— and a dog and a cat. So they've gone out with the dog because they knew that I wanted to do this interview, and bless their hearts, I just couldn't— they know full well that they'd probably forget halfway through and suddenly start playing football up against a wall or something like that. And they're going out to go and walk the dog and to help because they think it's important, and they appreciate it, and they don't like I like it that they help unloading the dishwasher and the washing machine and whatnot, but likewise, the more that they help me, they know that the more easier my life can be and the more pleasant I'm probably gonna be. But likewise, they're learning skills. And you know what, if they want to get a new Xbox game or a new PlayStation game and I'm like, well, help me around the house, especially at the moment, you know, I quite often, I do have a busy life, so I do actually have a cleaner that comes for a couple of hours a week and she's not coming at the moment because of COVID-19. I'm like, dude, do you want to earn some money towards the game? Help me around the house. And they know how to do it. And that's, you know, obviously it's me basically not wanting them to the bins and to clean the windows, but, you know, I'm still teaching them to do it and to appreciate the value. Absolutely, Hazel. I just love this. I think this is so brilliant. I really, really encouraging mentoring early at a young age, and I think it If boys can be given age-appropriate tasks, then why not? I mean, I do that. My son is really happy to do— help me with some basic household chores, and I give them— I give him like a tip or like a weekly income for that, which is not— you know, one of my friends was like, oh, but you know, this is child labor. And I was like, no, it's not. It's teaching boys new because girls would be doing it when we— you know, this is the social conditioning which we have to change because when we were younger as girls, we were expected to help around in the house, so why not the boys, right? 100%. I mean, the thing is, yes, I have had, um, like you just said yourself, some of my friends who are parents are like, oh my God, your kids do so much around the house, how do you get away with it? And then in the same breath, they're like, well, why has your eldest son got his own credit card? I'm like, well, because he helps me pick up my youngest son from school sometimes, and so he has a little card so we can go down on the way home to go and pick up a hot chocolate or a milkshake because I appreciate him helping me. So, you know, you do a little and you gain a little. It's, you know, it's everybody working together. Yeah, and it's important to reward them for these tasks, right? I mean, it's not bribing or it's not child labor, as people say. Actually, most people now are changing their thoughts, thankfully, and now knows that, you know, it's important to teach boys and girls young because, you know, I don't know if you've heard that, uh, that when this— they did this gender equality report, there's this country in Africa, Rwanda, which did really well, um, and it's suddenly gone up, really up. They've closed the gender gap and they're doing really well. So one of the things which they did was that they started, uh, doing these campaigns in schools where they were teaching boys about women's rights, and they were teaching boys on how to help kept their, you know, their sisters or their moms at home. And if, for example, if the mom said, told the girl that you, you should work and your brother should study, so they made the boys question that, you know, why should I not help her and why should she not study? I mean, it's, it's, it should be equal for both of us. So they did these role plays, and I think that was a brilliant idea because children realize that how important it is. I talk about gender equality all the time, and my son now starts noticing things like, oh mama, now I know my favorite The comic book series has less books for girls. Oh yeah, I read that. Yeah, the comic book series. Yeah, yeah. But you've got it on Channel 4 now that the, um, the new Batwoman series, not only is the woman the main character, she's taken over from Batman, but she's also, um, openly gay as Batwoman as well. And she, I mean, is it Emily Rourke? I can't remember her name now, but she's absolutely fantastic. She was in Orange is the New Black as well. And yeah, it's good that slowly, slowly though, right, Hira? Yes, no, definitely. I think as mums we do have a key role in this, to tell our boys the right thing and teach them the right thing since a young age. And I think That's really important. Yeah, and there's a couple of other things I would like to move on to. We're nearly halfway through today's show already. I want to talk about this particular concept that you brought up, and I realized I am a Taipei woman. Can you explain to our listeners what a Taipei woman is? And there's going to be quite a few women that we won't be able to hear, but they're going to be going, Ah, yes, yes, okay, that makes sense. Um, so yeah, you can explain what a Type A woman is. So I am also definitely a Type A woman. So Type A women would also be what they call multipotentialites, and these are people who are, um, they're obviously very focused and they are very ambitious and they are often very good at doing a number of things simultaneously, and of course they are very quality-oriented, and, you know, they make sure that whatever they're doing, they put in their 100% effort in that. And these sort of women, they are not really satisfied with just doing like one or two things. The chances are that at one single time they'll probably be working on 3 or 4 assignments at the same time. Um, and so, so yes, and they are also, um, of course, a little unforgiving, I would say, when it comes to outcome and output and results, because they want things to be done in a certain way. So that's the definition of Type A women. They're ambitious, they, they really want to do a lot of things at the same time, and they want to do it all very well. Um, And yeah, so basically they, they really have a lot of different skills and a lot of different attributes, and I guess they just want to do a lot of things at the same time. So that's, that's precisely the type of women ambitious. But I think one downside is that sometimes you do tend to get stressed, and sometimes you do take a lot on your plate, sometimes more than you can manage. And I think that's that's the thing, that you really need to pursue those goals, whatever you want to, but it doesn't have to be at the same time. So you can always prioritise your life, you can always make sure that you say no to certain things, and it's not that you're saying no to them forever, it's just that you're kind of postponing it for a future time when you're more ready and when you have more time in your hands to do that task. Yeah, we do need to learn to delegate a little bit more, but the concept that I just, I had a bit of an aha moment when I read, I read about the Taipei woman and then I went on to read about a gatekeeper in the house and I realised, I mean, this is a problem I have, especially with partners where they've gone, right, we'd like to make you breakfast, we'd like to do this, we'd like to do that, we're going to help you do the washing up, and I'm going, oh, I'm only gonna have to do it again, and if you make breakfast you're gonna make so much of a mess. And like, well, should we help you put the washing out? Like, yeah, sure, but can I show you how to do it properly? Do you want us to do it or not, Hazel? And I'm like, oh no. And you know, I love cooking, as I said before, and they said, oh, let us cook for you. And I'm like, mm, I mean, I've got an oil intolerance and I'm a flexitarian. I'm a bit funny about my food anyway. And so I am such a gatekeeper, and it's, you know, I work really hard to kind of perfect some things. Don't get me wrong, there's certain things that I just cannot be bothered and happy for other people to do, but the ones I know I can do really well, I can't release the strings on it. And I've had people saying to me in the past, going, "I am capable of making a sandwich," you know, I'm like, "Mm-hmm, but you're gonna put so many crumbs everywhere, and then you're gonna wipe them on the floor, and then I'm gonna have to clean the floor, and then I'm gonna have to do this, and then I'm gonna have to do that. And gatekeeping applies to so many elements of our life. It's the same with childcare. Yes, absolutely. And I think the reason why— and that's again a characteristic of Type A women, because, because they want to do things perfectly. And I think generally perfectionism is a women-specific trait. I mean, there are obviously men. I'm not saying that this is just a women-specific trait, but of course more women are perfectionists than men. And especially if you're Type A, then the perfectionism is, is even greater. And I think that is the reason why a lot of us are gatekeepers and we find it very difficult to give up control. But honestly, I still— in this day and age, if you really want to be more relaxed, less stressed, and make it less exhausting for not just for yourself but people around you, then you— I think we really need to be able to delegate to people. And I know that a lot of times we as women feel that, oh my God, you know, if I delegate this person, it's probably not going to be done as per my own, as per my standard, so why just delegate that? I'll do it myself, right? And this always happens, I think, and the reason, I think one of the reasons why we fail— Oh no, they don't want to— sorry, Hira, just as you're about to tell us about one of the reasons why we fail, and then I think your Wi-Fi dropped and I have the feeling that we really need to listen to that. Okay, sorry, no problem, I'll say it again. So, um, what was I saying? Okay, yes, so one of the reasons— yeah, so one of the reasons why we suffer from time poverty, particularly women, and the reason why we are so time deprived, and particularly working women, is because we are so hell-bent on our quality standards and we don't want to delegate tasks and we feel that, oh, this is my area, I can do it better. And, you know, other people will probably not do it up to my standards, so why delegate? Then I will just do it myself. And I think that is just putting a lot of pressure on not just yourself, but it's also exhausting for the people around us because they— Sorry, I'm constantly— Yeah, because they're always conscious, right? Because they'd be like, oh my God, if I do something, if I help her with the dishes, or if I do the bed, or if I do this and that, then I wonder what her reaction is going to be. So I I'll probably not do it. And I think as women, we really need to take it easy. So for example, my son and my husband, they had this huge monster fight on the bed before they do the bed on Sunday. And if, you know, the bed literally comes apart and the room, the whole room is like filled with pillows and they're having a pillow fight, and I'm okay. I mean, initially this used to really stress me, but now I've learned that this is all right as long as they do the task. And even if it says 60, 70%, and it's, it's doable, it's manageable, it's okay. Nobody is— nobody— there's no quality control manager coming in here to check how it's done. We should be okay with that. It's just, it's— we should— I think we really need, as women, we need to be kind to ourselves. So we need to give ourselves that leverage and that permission to be able to take it easy and make mistakes and Delegate. This is so important for most women to be able to delegate. Now the thing is, I know I need to do this, but what I've been learning recently is a new way of multitasking, and I'm going to blame you for this. Um, but as I've been going through your book and I see at the beginning of each chapter there's a particular quote, or when you refer to somebody's TED Talk on YouTube, so I got addicted to Amy Cuddy and Brené Brown, and then I started having a look at Jay Shetty. Now they keep on coming up, all the next videos to watch, and I've just been watching so much YouTube over the last week or two. But now while I listen to these, and some of them are 30-40 minutes long, and we don't have time to just sit there and watch these YouTubes, so they're sitting, they're on the side on my iPad in the kitchen while I'm cleaning something, or I'm actually in the middle of moving house as well, and so while I'm packing, I'm listening to all these different TED Talks that I've kind of suddenly got addicted to from reading your book, and I think they're absolutely fantastic, but then I'm just doing more and more around the house. I was doing the skirting boards the other day while listening to Jay Shetty speaking to Ellen DeGeneres, and I was like, like, yeah, this makes skirting boards a lot easier. Yes. Yeah, I mean, definitely, why not? I think I always listen to podcasts and these TED Talks when I'm doing things because I think it just also helps me to focus. At the same time, I feel that I'm doing, uh, you know, I'm doing 2 or 3 things at the same time. So that's definitely very helpful. But I think as women, we just need to— I think, Hazel, I don't know, tell me if I'm wrong, I feel, and this is, this This has been revealed in my survey and from talking to a lot of women across the world that we have these self-imposed time pressures, and this is, this is thanks to us. We have imposed these high standards and expectations on ourselves. Oh, completely. And yet all of a sudden now we're all being told to slow down, stay indoors, and we have like been enforced to stop these time pressures. COVID-19's got some horrific things that are happening, but so many people are slowing down. They're getting chance to just re-engage properly with their family. And it's not like they can say, "I haven't done this email yet, I haven't done this, haven't done this, I need to go and arrange this meeting." You can't go to a meeting, you know, you can't finish whatever project was on the go because it's on hold. So much of life is on hold and it's it's a weird feeling for us all. Yes, no, I think, I mean, obviously there is a lot of stress and fear, anxiety. I feel that this is such a positive outcome of the COVID-19 that we are now working remotely, we are pausing, we, you know, we're literally hitting the pause button. A lot of people are now exercising and doing meditations and, you know, all these things which they usually wouldn't do, but because obviously they have to keep their sanity intact. Now they're doing more of this, and I'm hoping that this would become a routine for them even when normality resumes and everything is fine. Well, I did actually— I was saying this to my kids the other day. We were out walking the dog, and they're like, "Aren't we supposed to be on lockdown? The river's as busy as we've ever seen it." I was like, "Well, people have been enforced to do exercise, and now we're really getting into it." So You know, it's an interesting concept, and people are getting time to finally, you know, I think books are one of the top 6 things that people have started getting into. So this is good. People need to make sure that they read Her Way to the Top. And actually, this is probably a good point to tell people where they can get hold of your book. They need to be getting cracking with it while they've got the time. Oh, thank you. So yes, they can definitely order it on Amazon. In fact, right now the ebook is, um, there's a promotion going on because my publisher has has done a promotion for the COVID-19, and the ebook is available for, I think, $1.99. It's, it's really cheap now. So the ebook— yeah, so the ebook is really cheap. And of course, if you do want the paperback, then that's also available on Amazon. So, and it's also, um, available to a lot of local bookstores if you order online, like WH Smith and all these places. So you will probably get it. I'm not sure how fast the delivery is. Definitely ebook is going to be immediate because it's online. Uh, but yeah, the paperback is— I'm hearing that, uh, the orders are coming and arriving, so I think that's good news too. So yes, Amazon is— would be the best place to buy the book. Oh, brilliant. And then you've got your website as well, haven't you? Yes, so my website is www.advancingyourpotential.com, and, uh, all my social media handles, they're @AdvancingYou. So on LinkedIn, um, Only on LinkedIn I'm there as Hiralie Coach, but on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram I'm at @AdvancingYou, and the website has details of all the pro projects that I'm doing, including, um, you know, Career Excel, which is online women leadership program that I run with my partner in US, and there's international women empowerment events. It's all about having conferences in different parts of the world. We had a launching conference in Maldives last year. And, um, nice. This year the conference has got cancelled, obviously, because of COVID But yes, next year we do hope to go in different parts of the world and do these empowerment conferences for women. And the gray area is another thing which I'm doing. And then of course, uh, I do a lot of talks which are now have been converted into webinars and virtual workshops. But yeah, a lot of talks. Are you still doing all your blogs? Because you write for Forbes, um, the Huffington— um, Arianna Huffington actually retweeted one of your blogs, didn't she? Yes, twice. Hey, she shared my blog. In fact, one night when I woke up, I was like, what's going on? Why am I suddenly so popular? Hundreds of retweets, 1,800 LinkedIn shares. It's like, what's going on? So then I realized, oh my God, Arianna Huffington has shared, um my blog. In fact, yesterday I wrote a blog for Thrive Global on remote teams, and today in the morning I saw that it was in the top news for Thrive Global, and I was like, yay! So I do, yes, I love writing. I think writing is very therapeutic for me, and I think in these last few weeks I have written a lot. I have written a lot on presentism and working from home and strategies of working from Home and remote teams. So it's a lot of different blogs which are all available online if you Google and search my name. Well, I'll make sure that we put up all the details as well. Now, um, just when I was talking about the— my new addiction to YouTube TED Talks, uh, is there a particular favorite public figure that you have that you think is either smashing it out the park for women's well-being or supporting women or just been a stand-up person? So definitely Brené Brown is one of them. I'm a huge fan of her. She has these amazing talks. And then of course we have— there's also this lady who I've quoted in my book too, there's Marisa Peer, her name is, and she does a lot of brain talk. So that's really important. And of course on well-being, now there's so many people doing so much on well-being because of the COVID crisis. Uh, but, uh, yes, I think most of the really good advice, uh, comes from— wait, let me think. There are a lot of people actually that I do follow, but I think, yes, on top of my mind is definitely Brené Brown. Um, Amy, of course, she's really good. And then, of course, um, who else is there? Oh yes, um Okay, great. I'm again, I'm forgetting her name, but this lady who has done 3 Second or the 5 Second Rule, she's always on LinkedIn and she does talk a lot about well-being and women's well-being, and she's really great. I think I'm a huge fan of her as well. What's her name? Let me, let me, let me, let me Google, let me Google right now. Google it at the same time, see. Well, obviously I'm having to record my interviews for GetBooked remotely, so we are unfortunately bowing down to the fantastic internet that we might have, but there's so many people using the internet as well. Absolutely. But yeah, it's just if you do go off a little bit, I just need to make sure that we definitely hear what you had to say, because I don't want to miss a single thing. Oh, that's really nice of you. So this woman is called Mel. Okay, wait, where did she go again? Her name is, um, Mel Robbins, and she talks a lot about— she talks a lot about resilience, um, and, you know, mental well-being and all these things. And I think she's really good, so I really follow her work. And, um, and yeah, I mean, there's one author in my circle, um, and she does She has written a book called Gorgeous, and she again talks about, you know, eating habits, because how it is right now, we are really going to the fridge a lot more. Yes, well, that's the thing as well, and we're going to the fridge because we're all in uncertain times. There's not much else that we need to do, and sometimes we all— we're emotional eaters, and how we feel I was reading an article today about why we're all feeling so lethargic, and yes, it's down to the food as well, but it's just, you know, we're searching, we're not out and about as much, we're not utilizing our brains as much, and so that it's like the muscle memory that is just slowing down. And it's, it's interesting how, you know, what we eat— I mean, again, if we're hungry and we go for the crisps or the sugar, and we're going to feel high for about 20 minutes, and then we, we then take a hit. So it is important what we put into our bodies. No, absolutely. And I think as women, we really need to take time out for ourselves. That's really important. I have this whole chapter dedicated on managing stress, uh, because I feel that we do neglect ourselves more, especially as moms when you have to take care of children and, you know, do so many other things. Then sometimes your health and your well-being is not really the major priority. Sometimes it does get sidelined, and I think it's really important that you need to take care of yourself first before you're able to take care of anybody else in the family. Because if you are not happy, if you are not in a space where you can, where you feel content, or where you feel that you are doing okay, then how would you be able to help other people? So I think it's really important that we give ourselves that time, we do something which we enjoy. I really encourage that, that, you know, during the week you should do something which you you enjoy doing, which is just you doing that thing. And it could be, I don't know, cooking, painting, writing, listening to music, but whatever it is that, you know, invigorates your soul or makes you feel better. Or just like literally going into the shower, lighting some candles, or doing, um, well, we can't really go for massages right now. I know, she's But whatever it takes to make us feel better and make us feel good, I think we should do that. Oh, 100%. I mean, the thing is, I was going to go on to now what would be your 3 top tips of female mental well-being, but I think you've just given us about 7. But if you wanted to reiterate 3 major tips that you would like to recommend, yes, do you have 3 top tips? Yeah, I think my, my 3 top tips. The first tip is, is something which we've already talked about, and that's saying no, right? And delegating. I think this is, this is more to do with managing our time, but this is so important. I mean, it's understated, so important for our well-being, because sometimes we pile so much on a plate and then we're just exhausted and we're like, oh my God. I mean, literally, I had so much on my plate, and when it was, when these assignments got cancelled or postponed or delayed, and that was like— and I was literally relieved. And I was like, what was I thinking? I mean, I'm so relieved now that they're cancelled. So it's probably— you know how Marie says, sparking joy, you know, just keep clothes in your wardrobe which spark joy, right? So I think it's the same thing. Keep tasks on, on, um, literally on your plate which spark joy. So So number one is yes, definitely delegate and say no. Just because you're good at everything— oh yes, that's a very, very, very important reminder for Type A women, because Type A women are usually good at a number of things and they're able to do it simultaneously. That doesn't mean that you have to do it. Just because you're good at something, that doesn't mean that you have to do it. Literally, I mean, you can do it later, you can do it in future, or you— or maybe you shouldn't do it at all. Yes, what you should do is something which you're passionate about, and that's— that they're two different things. You could be really good at something but you're not passionate about it, so then just don't do it because that's not— that's really going to rob you from this whole, um, mental peace and it's going to give you anxiety unnecessarily. So that's definitely the number one tip. Um, and the number two tip is take a break, hit the pause button. That is so important. You have to to consciously take breaks because as women, you know, working women, or particularly single moms, it just gets very exhausting and stressful and tiring. So you have to do it. Nobody else is going to do it for you, frankly speaking. You have to look after yourself and you have to take these breaks and make sure that you hit the pause button. So that's really, really important. Even during the day, there should be at least 15-minute slots every 2 or 3 hours when you just have— when you're just there doing nothing, literally. And that time is just for you because it's really important to unwind and get that me time and get that relaxation time. So that's the important thing that you need to do, break and take a break. And number 3 would be to pursue a passion which you enjoy doing, like literally anything because that is just so invigorating. It re-energizes your soul when you're doing something which has no pressure, no deadlines, no judgment. It's purely something which you do, you like doing for your own self. That is really an amazing, amazing thing for your well-being. So definitely that. Do you know what, that third tip is one thing, um, I think it's so incredibly important and it's so easily achievable. And quite often when my friends say, "I'm so low, I don't know how to do this, I don't know how to focus, I don't know how to get my mojo back," and it's like I say, find that thing that you know you're good at or that gives you that spirit, whether it's that favourite album or whether it's going to a pantry slam or whether it's watching a comedy show or, you know, there's something that just just, you know, when you listen to it or when you experience it, you just go, yes! For me, it's cooking. It's control. And it's just, it's one of those things that if I'm feeling overwhelmed or— I've got a sneeze that's dying to come at the moment, and I know it's going to come at the wrong time. But if I ever feel like I need to control, ultimately, my brain, and I feel like I'm not in control of what's going on and I'm feeling a bit low, I cook. And quite often, you know, my friends have often said, "Oh, Hazel's having a bit of a rubbish time at the moment," which means we're all going to have our dinner cooked for us very shortly. So she's, you know, people will come over, they're like, "I know you've had a bit of a rubbish time, but that means that you've made us that vegan chilli, right? And I take it you've been making sourdough, and have you made some cakes as well? That'd be Great. I do, I'll cook about 6 dishes at once and it, it sorts me right out. Yes, no, definitely. I think that is so important, and I also think we need to let go of perfectionism and take it a little easy, uh, be kind to ourselves first before being kind to anybody else, because I think we have very high standards for ourselves and we say that, oh no, we need to do this and we need to do it in a certain way, and that puts a lot of stress on us. So I think we just need to take it easy, we need to delegate, and of course I think it's very— it's a very good idea to identify what exactly is your energy cycle, because some people are most energetic in the morning, some people are most energetic in the evening. Well, I, I don't recommend being energetic at night because you really do need to get your 8 hours of sleep. But, uh, yeah, so I think identify your energy cycles, and I think schedule your day accordingly. But do take out time for yourself, that's really, really important. Nurture hobby, spend time I'm laughing. I think humor is, is so amazing, literally. I think it's the most underrated coping mechanism out there. I think just laughing or watching a comedy show or just sharing jokes, uh, I think that, that really, really helps us women. And I think, yeah, so I think all these things are really important, um, and, and I think we just need to to sort of set attainable targets because, um, again, because of perfectionism, because of the fact that, you know, a lot of us are Type A women, we really have these high standards about everything. So yeah, just take it easy. I think I knew there was another thing coming in my mind and I don't know what it is. I've just completely forgotten what it was. It was coming to me right now. I was like, oh, I have to share this. Oh yes, what was I saying? And I was saying, yes, sometimes as women what we do is that because we, uh, a lot of us do have compassion, and what we do is we dismiss our feelings and we say that right now I'm feeling stressed and overwhelmed and whatever, but you know what, people out there have it worse than us, which is fine. I do agree. I think it's so important to be grateful and to be positive. I think when you're positive and when you're grateful, I think that half of your stress is eliminated. But what I do want to encourage and tell women is that it's okay not to be okay. So if you're not feeling okay, if you feel stressed, and if you feel that, you know, there's too much going on, and if you feel life is unfair, or whatever, XYZ, it's all right. Do not dismiss your feelings. Acknowledge that whatever you are going through is probably very big for you. I mean, it might be something very trivial for the rest of the people, but for you it might be some very big. So focus on that, acknowledge it. Yes, I wouldn't say to just sit on it and just keep complaining and crying and just not do anything about it. But don't dismiss your feelings. Acknowledge your problems. Acknowledge anxiety. Do not compare with the rest and say, oh, but you know what, the other person has it really bad. That's fine. I mean, we all know that every, you know, there's so hundreds and thousands of people who have it worse than us. But when you are stressed, it doesn't really help to compare. So focus on your stress acknowledge that stress and say that, you know what, I'm going to be fine in a few days. And then after a few days, yes, I do encourage you to find things that you're grateful for. I do encourage, highly, highly recommend starting a gratitude journal, starting on a note of positivity, because that really is so important. The signals which we send to our mind, because as women, I think we are really scared of failures, we are scared of taking risks, we are scared of vulnerability, we're afraid of of being judged. Negative attention, failure, the whole lot. Yeah, there's a lot of fear that men just don't seem to have as much. Absolutely. All this affects our mental well-being because we tend to be so fixated on our failures. This affects our well-being. So I would just say that, you know, go easy on yourself. It's all right even if you're making mistakes. Just reframe the whole concept of failure. I think that's so important. And be very careful of the signals that you're sending to your mind, because honestly, Hazel, one thing I've learned— well, I'm an NLP practitioner, so I obviously I say that, but I have noticed this before I was even qualified as a practitioner— that whatever you tell your brain, the brain is going to cooperate accordingly. So if you tell your brain that this is something, I've got this, you know, this is going to be fine, I'm fine, take care of myself, everything is sorted, that's exactly how the brain is going to react. So if you— and if— but if you send negative signals to your believe in, then that's how your brain is going to be. So if you wake up positive and happy and you say, okay, this is, this is something which I, which, you know, I'm in control of, uh, this is exactly what your brain is going to also believe in. Because, you know, as Henry Ford says— completely, yeah, yeah, that's— sorry, I just went— I said, you know, there's my favorite quote, like, whether, whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're probably right. I love that quote. Yeah, I read that in your book and I thought that was fantastic. And also the bits— there were some parts that was touched on this in your book as well. Sorry, that sounded a little bit like gobbledygook. The language that was utilized and the way that we can utilize language that you touch on in your book, that's what I wanted to say, is that, you know, we need to acknowledge what's happened but we need to kind of not talk ourselves into being a victim. And language utilisation, when, you know, dealing with a predicament, we can talk ourselves into or out of anything, and we can reframe situations by the language that we use, and it is the most powerful tool ever. I did have a friend who was so upset about a particular situation she was in. I said, I said, you're, you're talking about this so negatively. Think about it in a different way. Um, I mean, very briefly, she was upset that, that an ex of hers was introducing his new partner to the children. She goes, oh, what if they like, uh, her more? I said, well, first of all, that's never going to happen. But if they didn't like her, your life would be a nightmare. And likewise, you know, he would feel exactly the same way. When you introduce your kids to your new partner, think about it completely differently. You want it to work well, trust me, because however it happens with his new partner is probably going to be replicated with your new partner. Think about it completely differently. If it works well, it's really good for you. And she's like, yeah, fair enough, I've completely been looking at this from the wrong angle. Just use positive language and it will retrain your brain This is so important. This is such a beautiful example, Hazel. I think reframing everything, reframing a negative situation into something positive, I think that is again a major, major strategy that is going to impact your mental health and your well-being in, in a very good way. So I think that's— I couldn't agree more, definitely. And talking about language and how we treat people as well, one of, one of the best bits. It's on page 216 of your book, and I thought this is so important, I need to read this whole paragraph because it really brought it home to me, just the importance of the difference of two words. It's: Teach girls to be kind, not nice. Niceness won't keep them safe. Kindness can and should be taught. Niceness, however, springs from a desire desire to please others, even if it's at our own expense. For the most part, nice means to be tolerant and accommodating. If we are brutally honest with ourselves, it also implies to, to do whatever it takes to keep the peace. So instead of teaching our girls to be nice, we should teach them how to be themselves, to be self-aware, which means self-directed, self-governed, and true to themselves. I think that is bang on everything. I think it's the perfect way for you to have brought your book to an end. I think it's perfect, and it's just two different words. No, absolutely. Thank you so much. It's so nice. I mean, obviously, within the book, but hearing it from you, it's like, oh my God, yes, that's a good one. I forgot I wrote that part. It's so funny, I mean, I'm so lucky because I love reading anyway and I love hearing about other people's perspectives and it's how we learn compassion and empathy. And I get so— I mean, the producer that's recording our show at the moment, she sees how excited and tongue-tied I get sometimes because I've got the fantastic job where I get to read these books and then actually speak to the authors and I get so excited and we go off and all these tangents that half the time I don't get to ask half the questions. So I'm quite often going blub blub blub, I get really excited. I've had to start drinking, you know, my lemon-infused water instead of the double espressos, because otherwise it's like I'm about to explode with all these different questions, stumbling over my own words. The paragraph which you just quoted, in fact, so yes, definitely, this is something which I write a lot about in my blogs. The 3 lines particularly, if you're brutally honest, I think that's the part which I also quoted Shefali. She's a clinical psychologist who has, I think, also given a TED Talk on this. In fact, there's Reshma Shujani. There's another TED Talk which I encourage you to watch, and that's about teaching girls to be brave and, um, and not— yeah, that's, that's what the top— the TED Talk topic is. I think that's another recommended TED Talk. And I think this is so important. Social conditioning starts— literally starts in our lives since we are kids. So whatever we feed into our children is, is something which they're going to carry on for the rest of their lives. And that's why I believe it's so important to start young. Well, I think your book's absolutely fantastic. I'm surprised how quickly, uh, this whole hour has gone. Um, and I can't wait to, uh, get you into the studio when you, when you publish your next books. I'm pretty certain there's going to be many of them. Um, and we need to encourage people that this is not just a book for women, you know, it's up to men as well to learn about the challenges and how we can all help each other. And if we're all working together, life is so much easier. Um, and I must say, thank you so much for, for coming in on, on the show. And please, everybody, do go out and buy Her Way to the Top by Hira Ali. The glass ceiling is thicker than it looks. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you here. Have you got any final words? We've got about 30 seconds before the end of the show. So thank you so much. I really enjoyed this interview. The, the book now has a brand new title, it's called A Guide to Smashing the Glass Ceiling. But yes, nevertheless, obviously the content is the same. And I would love to be on the radio, and I would just say keep believing in yourself. And if you have any questions, email me, and I would love to be on your studio, Hazel. I would love to do that. Well, brilliant. I can't wait to get you in as soon as possible, and I'll make sure that all the details are up on our website. Thank you so much. Enjoy the rest of your day.