Get Booked – Gail Aldwin, The Secret Life Of Carolyn Russell 180923

Hello, you are listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield. Field for women's and men's radio station. Welcome to today's show. Today on the show, we are going to be joined by the author Gail Aldwyn, and we're going to be discussing The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell. On reaching the end of her teaching career, Gail Aldwyn set herself new challenges. In 2020, she volunteered with VSO at a refugee settlement in Uganda. In this remote corner of the country, the water and power supplies were unreliable. Gayle frequently found herself in bed and under mosquito nets by 8 o'clock without light to read by. She listened to a range of podcasts that she downloaded at a local hotel. This was where her fascination for true crime podcasts began. With two novels already published, Gayle thought she would spend her free time in Uganda plotting a new novel. However, her work supporting the emotional well-being of young families fleeing conflict in South Sudan was all-consuming. Following repatriation due to COVID-19, Gayle set about writing a novel which used the device of a true crime podcast to link the two timelines of her developing story. In The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell, readers are introduced to 16-year-old Carolyn who walks out of her maths exam in the 1970s and is never seen again. The contemporary storyline follows the journey of Stephanie, a redundant journalist who takes up podcasting to finally get to the bottom of what happened to Carolyn. Using a keen ear to create the voices of a troubled teenager in 1979 and a frustrated midlifer in 2014, Aldwyn captures the zeitgeist for each period with telling accuracy. Now settled in Southwest London, Gayle is keen to take advantage of writing opportunities this creative area has developed. Gayle is a novelist, poet, and scriptwriter. Gayle has been writing for over a decade, and she was awarded a creative writing PhD in 2018, no less. Uh, how incredible! I cannot wait to get this interview started. Right now, time for today's guest on Get Booked. We have Gayle Aldwyn, and we're going to be chatting about The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell. This book was perfectly timed for me, having only recently listened to my first ever unsolved crime mystery podcast in the last few weeks, and I know I'm very late to the party. Uh, so the book, it is 2014 and Stephanie has just been made redundant from her position at the local paper after many years of service, yet Doug, her boss, thinks this is a great opportunity for her to flex her creative muscles in new media. Namely podcasting. Back in 1979, when Stephanie was starting out in journalism, a girl from her school went missing, and to this day, we still don't know what happened to her. Could modern communication and a less newbie approach to investigative journalism be the answer to uncovering the truth? While delving into the past and forging a way through with her future, Stephanie gets to encounter new people, gain a better understanding of small-town ignorances, learn about resilience and humanity. But will she get to uncover what happened to Carolyn Russell? Welcome to Get Booked, Gail, and congrats on the book. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Yes, and I'm really pleased with the book. It's a nice-looking product. I'm still on that sort of newly published high that you get after such a lot of work. I was just quickly checking out your website for your latest post at gailaldwin.com, and I saw, I love it, that you found a dress that perfectly color-matched your book. I know, the story of the green dress. Yes, I bought it over a year ago, so it's absolutely coincidence that it went so well with the book. But yeah, it was really nice to be able to wear that and show off the book at the same time. Yeah, it looks fantastic. I mean, the cover's fantastic. I thoroughly enjoyed reading the book. I'm quite keen to get cracking. How did the idea get born for The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell? Well, it did start off with podcasts, so I'm gonna backpedal a bit and go back to 2019. Um, I took a voluntary post with a VSO to go and work at a refugee settlement in Uganda, and it was a very remote place, as you can imagine, refugee settlement. So it was right on the border with South Sudan and the Democratic Republic Congo, in a very under-resourced area. I mean, the, the refugee settlement itself was on a former hunting ground. So although the theory that the refugees coming from South Sudan could build a house, you know, they could cut clay and build a house with a thatched roof, the theory was that they could grow vegetables, but actually the land was completely infertile, so it didn't really work out. Having said, while I was there, I was living in a nearby town And the electricity supply was very erratic and the water supply was also very erratic. Although my— one of the things of working with VSO is you are promised piped water. It may not be regular, but you know, you get piped water. And I moved into this little house and my landlord promised me piped water every day. And I think I had it for about 3 days in a row and then it was off for like 4 or 5 days and then on for a day and off for a day. And you can imagine all the red dust in Africa, it was pretty hard going. And the electricity supply was terrible as well. So I might get electricity in the morning for about an hour and then made life, working life really difficult because you couldn't print anything, you couldn't use your computer. And for me, it was really hard because I'm living in this tiny little house, no electricity at night. I had a power pack that kept my fan going until about midnight. And then I'd just be sweltering in the heat on this foam mattress. Under my mosquito net. So I'm painting a picture here of, you know, quite a challenging lifestyle. But the, the, the, the bonus was there was a hotel in this town where I could charge my phone and download loads of podcasts. So while I'm sweltering in my bed at night, I was listening to podcasts. And somehow I just got tuned into the true crime podcasts, and I started listening to ones that were individual stories. So you'd have a new story with each podcast. And then I sort of tapped into the series podcasts. And, you know, they set out to solve a crime. And one of the really important influential ones, I mean, it was a bit like research, if you would. I was listening to this podcast called The Teacher's Pet, and it's all about a wife who goes missing in 1981. None of her family believed she would leave her children behind, but they didn't really suspect her husband of actually murdering her until much later. But because she was never found, you know, um, eventually— actually, it was last year— he was actually convicted of her murder. So the podcast itself brought this police interest in reopening the case, um, and then he was convicted last year for the murder of his wife. Her body was never found. And I was listening to these podcasts and I thought, oh my gosh, you know, this is true life, yet you couldn't have plotted it better. And actually, these podcasts are not linear, you know, they do take snippets of different bits of the story and sort of weave it together. And I've been listening to all these podcasts thinking, oh my goodness, you know, this is such a, you know, how, how can, you know, how can true life be emulated in fiction? And I, and so that I got the idea that I could do something like that with a missing person. And then I created this sort of young character of Carolyn Russell, who's 16. Um, And I did a bit of research around that in terms of trying to get the sort of 16-year-old voice. So I listened to quite a few episodes of BBC Radio 4's My Teenage Diary, and that kind of hooked me into the teenage logic that drives the narrative. It's interesting, isn't it? Because there's issues with resources, there's issues with historic crimes, you can't get them reopened. With the police. And so people are looking for different avenues to reinvest— well, to reinvestigate crimes. And these crime podcasts, they kind of, they go off in these little rabbit holes that you— that's through intrigue and something that, you know, traditional investigations with the police force can't necessarily go down or waste time going down. And then you've got this element of the public fascination of wanting to get involved and to feel like they've solved something. So I think podcasts have this really interesting place in trying to uncover truths, whether or not actually they don't have their hands tied as much as traditional methods. And we're obsessed with them. And if we think we can, we all like to have our opinion. Heard as well. Um, I mean, obviously there's certain issues with subjectivity with these podcasts, but it's all about increasing awareness. And you just don't know if you're going to finally— if when they're popular, if it's going to reach the right person who's got that snippet of information, or somebody who maybe disappeared out of choice and suddenly can come forward years down the line. Um, it's, it's an interesting method. I mean, I got As I said, when I first got this book, I'd just done my first ever podcast, listening to my first ever podcast, and it was the Pamela Adlon one through Audible. And it was interesting reading The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell from the perspective of the person producing the podcast and everything that goes on in life behind it and all the constraints and, you know, pulling teeth to get information, trying to get people to speak. And it was, it was interesting marrying those two perspectives together. Uh, I think you did a fantastic job. It's definitely, it's a fantastic book. You must be getting some brilliant reviews. Well, thank you for that. Yes, I'm really pleased with the way it's been received, so that's been really rewarding. Um, and I'm glad that it's— she's kind of hit the spot with a lot of people. I mean, for some people of a certain age, it's kind of like going back and reliving those sort of teenage years in that time period as well, in the late '70s, which is quite shocking too. It's problematic. And I think, yes, the elements of what you brought out in The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell about the problematic nature of 1979 and all the way through '80s and '90s, you can even go to the early '20s, of what was just deemed okay, how people had to 'put up and shut up,' the creepiness of men and how women just made you feel like you should just get on with it because you didn't want to be a problem or a burden or be, you know, a tall poppy in any way, shape, or form. And so it was stifling, it was worrying. People felt scared to say, 'Actually, I'm not comfortable with how I'm being treated and how I'm made to feel.' 'Is this right or wrong?' Because nobody was standing up for people and saying, 'Oh, you know, it's just men, they're allowed to kind of grab you a bit like that, that's just their nature. Men and women are different.' It was horrific. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true, you know, and when you kind of think about it, that is so confusing for young people, isn't it? Knowing that it doesn't feel right, but not having the voice to sort of challenge anything. Really, really difficult times. Well, you can see why there's two, there's two sides to it, I guess. You can see why somebody would just go, I'm so unsupported. I'm, I'm crying out, telling you there's something wrong. And if you feel unsupported by your friends and family, a lot of people will just go, I'm out of here. I, I'm going and I don't want to give them any sort of time of day to tell them where I've gone and why, cuz they didn't, they didn't care initially. However, because nobody was listening, when something horrible happens, if they have been murdered, then nobody was listening to find out the information as to, you know, who did it, why something happened to them. It's, it's interesting, and I don't want to in any way allude to the end of the story. Yes, it's— but, but this is the thing, and a lot of these crime podcasts, they don't uncover what happened. No, that's true. I mean, I'm really fascinated by how much time the investigative journalists spend in building up relationships with people that enables them to feel that they can come forward. And at the same time, there's others that are so keen to give their point of view as well, you know. There's a lot— there's a bit in the novel about, you know, small town attitudes, really. And I think that's very true, you know. If they— you can get into a position where everybody, but, you know, wants to finger one particular person. And I think that can really happen as well, you know, that there's a lot of gossip and belief that, you know, a particular person has done the deed, um, and others that, you know, hold different viewpoints and have other information but have never really been asked about it. Yeah, I mean, we are— we're all full of opinions, aren't we? And as you're saying, sometimes people had to massage people's ego or be very personable to get someone to talk, and other people you literally just have to give them a phone or a recording device, an avenue, and they're more than happy to give their opinions. And it's deciphering the dross and reading between the lines at the same time, and a great podcast does that. It's all to do with the production, isn't it? Yes, and I did take some from some of the podcasts I listened to. I took sort of snippets from— there's one podcast I listened to called Finding Cleo, which was based— I think it was a Cree girl that went missing in Canada. It was the time of the— I think they called it the '60s scoop, where they used to take young, um, young girls from the reservations, young children from the reservations, and then adopt them into white families in North America. And, uh, that, that was a podcast run by a Canadian journalist called Connie Walker, and Some of the things that she did, I sort of used in, in the book as well. For example, she would, um, you could hear on the podcast her leaving messages on people's phones. The sort of type of message she left, it was kind of trying to be a bit, a little bit nurturing in terms of getting people to join, you know, give their points of view, but also challenging in terms of, you know, your point of view is really needed. So I thought that was really useful. Um, And, uh, another thing, I mean, one of the really remarkable things on that podcast was that, uh, one of the researchers was, um, did a search of, um, a gravestone website. And because the missing girl was called Cleopatra, it's quite an unusual name, and they actually found the, the gravestone of a 13-year-old girl. And this was like the breakthrough moment in, in solving the mystery of what had happened to this young girl. And I thought, oh, that's really interesting as well, those kind of moments that really turn on a penny, you know, and you get something else. Wow. And the thing is, as you are researching and information comes to light, it's quite hard, especially when all these crime cases in podcasts, the unsolved mysteries, they are invariably from 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago when times were different. And it's hard deciphering between demonising behaviours of older times when it was just accepted. It doesn't necessarily mean they're murderous, it just means that it was a different time where behaviour was accepted. So possibly what happened to Carolyn Russell back in 1979 with certain people, if it happened now, he'd be arrested. Yes. She'd be arrested. You know, so many different people, there would be problems.. But back then it just, it, it was, you know, something that just happened and it didn't necessarily, it just meant that, you know, it wasn't modern thinking. It doesn't mean that they were murderous or abusive. Mm. Not in a knowing way, if you see what I mean. Um, so there's lots of different parts of the book to unpack, but then you look at how Stephanie was integrated into the community to try and uncover what's going on and kind of meeting up with people of the past and integrating new people into her life as well. Um, where did the idea come from, especially with the whole angel cakes side of the story? Oh yes, I've got a very soft spot for Beth. Well, Stephanie, um, finds herself redundant, and in order to keep financially afloat, she decides to let out her spare bedroom. And, uh, her old boss puts her on to, um, Beth, who is a local businesswoman that runs a they called angel cakes. Um, she's actually of African-Asian heritage, so her family were, um, from Uganda. So my Uganda experience taps into this as well. So they were Asians living in Uganda who were expelled from the country by Idi Amin in the '70s. Um, so she's of that heritage and living in a very white area I suppose that sort of comes from my experiences of, well, you do draw on, you know, it's natural to draw on some of your own experiences. I sometimes wonder why issues of racism, I mean, I was looking back on my earlier novel, This Much Huxley Knows, and there's an issue about racism in there. And some of the reviewers were saying, oh, I can see some of the themes coming out from earlier books in The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell. And it's, Somehow you don't do it consciously, but it's always there because it's a kind of important aspect of life to you. So I did spend many years working as a teacher in ethnic minority achievement, and part of our role was to sort of challenge racism in schools, teach about how to build tolerance and understanding for new arrivals. And so these things kind of weave their way in because they're kind of important, they're embedded in you as a person, and they do sort of come out in your writing. So Angel Cakes is run by Beth, who is of Ugandan heritage, and she has a slight problem with the next-door neighbor, so an elderly neighbor who's Mrs. Walker. And it's about— Stephanie is kind of stuck in the middle really, because she respects and appreciates having a very good neighbor in Mrs. Walker, but Mrs. Walker does have racist attitudes. And it's sort of— is kind of that tension between 'Can you forgive an older person who has racist attitudes because they are so inexperienced with people from ethnic minorities in the community?' Which is a matter of fact in some rural areas. In the West Country, you may have— you probably have a Chinese family in most villages and towns in the West Country, and you probably have a Bangladeshi family running the Indian restaurant. But you don't have much more than that in a lot of small communities. So people who have been brought up in a West Country village are inexperienced and do have some inappropriate attitudes to new arrivals. And Stephanie finds herself stuck in the middle because obviously she's friends with Beth and she sees things in a different way, but she's got to mediate with Mrs. Walker, the next-door neighbor, and it's kind of an uncomfortable situation realizing that Mrs. Walker has got these attitudes, 'But she's a very kind person. Can we forgive her those attitudes, or do we need to challenge them?' See, this is the thing, and, and it's constantly evolving, but when you get personally invested in the welfare of a friend who's suffering these— with these attitudes of unacceptable behavior, and, you know, people get to a certain age and there's the argument that, you know, it's very hard to re-educate people no matter how much we should try. And it's that element of not being a white savior, but also you're trying to stand up for your friend and show support. But also at the same time, you know, she was saying, I've been dealing with this for decades, can you just back off and let me deal with it in my way? Because I know what I'm comfortable with and there's no point starting arguments I don't have the energy to deal with or isn't going to change anything in such a situation where there's so little exposure that there's not even a wealth of experience for somebody to rectify their behaviors. I suppose it's a, it's a never-ending horrific situation. But it is that I kind of sense, you know, Stephanie's anguish going, but I want to do something, I want to support you. And she was just like, yeah, um, 'Can you not?' Yeah. 'It's, it's not worth it. It's just, it's putting more stress on me, and it's just making it more of an issue.' I suppose it's comfortable, like, what would you do? Yeah, but I mean, later on in the novel, there's more racist incidents that Beth has to put up with that are much more, you know, obvious. So I mean, I think that's, that's the experience of lots of people living in white communities where they're very isolated And, you know, people are, you know, I think racism in rural areas is often much worse than in urban areas. There's much more acceptance and understanding, whereas in rural areas there's much more intolerance. I mean, people have very fixed attitudes, and you can see that in many different ways. Yeah, we're constantly learning. I mean, I've lived in London for the last 20-odd years, hugely multicultural, and, you know, that there are lots of issues that everybody has to deal with, but it's not accepted. People are definitely more educated about it, but, you know, I think I see myself as being relatively well-versed and knowing right from wrong. But occasionally, you know, I said to a friend of mine that was Indian, I was like, right, let's go to the States, we're going to go and do all the East Coast. I said, oh, then maybe we should kind of go to some of the redneck places and have a look at that kind of way of life. And she's like, no, I can't go there, it's not safe. And I was like, what, in, in 2019 it's not safe? And she's like, no, babe. I was like, holy— and I didn't even think about that. And you, you keep on having to be reminded about so many different situations. So I think it was I think it was delicately done, right, while opening the conversation at the same time. Yeah, I think that's what you try and do, you know. You're not— you're trying to, um, you're trying to make people reflect, I suppose, and just think about being in somebody else's shoes. Yeah, and I think this is the joy of books, isn't it? It's about experiencing somebody else's life and educating ourselves as to different perspectives and what goes on around us, and not just in our own backyard. Indeed, indeed. So you've written quite a few books. Yes. And this one had— what was the release date of The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell? It's been out a while now. That was the 3rd of July. 3rd of July. So does that mean that you're completely in with the PR, or have you already started writing the next book and it's almost finished, or have you got ideas going? Can you wet our appetite? I do have another book, um, but I've got, I've got a full first draft of it, so I've got to now go through it again and get it up to a sort of publication standard, uh, well, submission standard really. Um, so that's again drawing on the experience of living in Uganda. I decided to create an African island, um, and put 3 different couples on this island. I really like that idea. You know, I've just come back from a cruise, in fact, uh, where we sat on a table with 2 other couples. And I— it's that, it's that whole thing about meeting people that you wouldn't normally meet, and do you actually get on with or not? Fortunately, on our cruise, we had a lovely time, and we really enjoyed the couples we were sitting with. But what happens when you're sort of put in a situation where you have little in common with the other couples, and yet you find yourself with them a lot of the time? So I've got 3 couples that are all very different. So one of them went to the island to get married. Another couple are on honeymoon. And the third couple are celebrating a 7th wedding anniversary. But what I wanted to do with this book was explore the tensions between rich white tourists and the local communities, and thinking about how some, you know, how some, you know, the, the, how the conflict between the two really, um, what, what one community is saying to the other and how they respond. So a slightly, um, grittier version maybe with a White Lotus vibe in there? Oh, I did watch The White Lotus. That was my research as well. Yeah, that was such a good one. I mean, I always try and a little bit of humor in my book. So I mean, I've got one of the characters in the new novel is very frumpy, and another character is very woke. And so, you know, there's kind of can be some humorous moments there as well. But The White Lotus was fab, wasn't it? Oh, it was. I think there's a third series coming along as well, but it's just a different planet. They're all kind of set in Four Seasons, aren't they, which are always ridiculously priced. I mean, why clean your own glasses when somebody can come along and take your sun lotion smudges off for you, surely. Now I'm reading here, I mean, you've been writing for over a decade. Should I really be calling you Dr. Gail Aldwin? I, um, I, when I first, um, got my PhD, I didn't, I never called, never used my title. And I met a friend and she was saying, 'What, after all that work and you don't call yourself doctor? You're mad.' And I thought, oh well, maybe I will call myself doctor. But I, I do actually love it when you're kind of, um, in a— making a reservation in a restaurant or something and they say, 'Oh, is it Miss or Mrs.' And I say, 'No, it's Doctor.' Yeah, so it makes all that blood, sweat, and tears going into the PhD worthwhile just for the title. But, um, it's fun. Um, uh, well, I, I started the PhD because I'd written quite a few novels that are all in a drawer. I wasn't really getting anywhere with the writing, and I thought, I'm going to get some professional help. At the same time, I was made redundant from my teaching post. And it's funny as a teacher because you watch all your pupils move on. And you, a teacher, as a teacher, I felt that all the pupils are moving on and I'm just standing still, you know, what can I do, you know. I invested most of my creative energy in curriculum design, you know, that's where, that was my creative outlet when I was a full-time teacher. And so becoming redundant, it was a bit of a crisis to say the least, because you kind of, your identity is kind of ripped away from you. But I did think, what have I always enjoyed? And I've always enjoyed studying myself. And combined with that, I'd been doing creative writing classes, you know, for about a year or so, and I was sort of writing short stories and novels beside that. And I thought, no, I really need to get some professional help. So I thought, right, I'm going to look for an MA. And I didn't actually join an MA. I did an MPhil, which is a stepping stone towards a PhD, but it was a 2-year, part-time 2-year course. A lot of it was kind of distance learning, and we met 3 times a year for a long weekend in Wales. So I, I studied at the University of South Wales, and it was a fantastic course, and I really enjoyed it. And it gave me the chance to work on my own novel. I think some MAs you do more taught elements, so you might look at YA, you might look at romance or whatever, but this one was really just about focusing on your own work. And I got to the end of the MPhil and I was ready to submit my study, and I'd sort of got my novel, my first novel, The String Games, in a reasonable shape. And I just thought, oh, what, what, why am I finishing? You know, I've so enjoyed the course, I thought, why don't I just go on and do a PhD? And so I thought, well, I'll see if I can do it. And my tutors were really, really supportive. A lot of, um, PhD candidates sort of that I had met had sort of complained that their supervision wasn't that good, but I had fantastic supervision. Um, so one of my supervisors was Philip Gross, the poet, and the other was the sort of academic supervisor was Diana Wallace, who's, um, actually writes a lot of things about Tudor fiction and feminist fiction. And together they were like the dream team. So, um, it was a real pleasure to go on. And that— so the PhD took another 3 years on top of the initial 2 years. So it was a big piece of work. And all that time I was just working on the one novel. So this novel went through— well, I was going to say hundreds, but it must be 50 drafts. Um, and, uh, you know, it's a lot of work. Well, you go down a lot of dead ends because with the PhD, what you— the idea is you you research some kind of strategy or approach to, to the writing, and then you try it out in your own work. So it, it changes the work, and then you have to figure out whether it's actually suitable for the book that you want to write. So I went down lots of dead ends and lots of, you know, I thought of the whole process as a bit like being in a maze, you know, the maze at Hampton Court, you know, how you can You can kind of see through into the other paths, but you can't get to them. And then you get to lots of dead ends and you have to double back. And finally you get to the center of the maze, and that's about getting to the heart of the story and, uh, you know, the basis of the research. Interestingly and ironically, I live about 10 minutes away from Hampton Court, and, um, I've been in the maze many, many times on my own, with my my partner, with my kids, and I always make it to the middle, but it— I, I always struggle every single time. I think the amount of work you put in to get your PhD, you should be calling yourself a doctor as and when you ever want to. Personally, when I actually order something online and it asks for some sort of title description, I just open up the little box, scroll down, and just randomly pick one. I'm sometimes Commander Hazel Butterfield, uh, Master Hazel Butterfield, and I've not earned it at all, but I thoroughly enjoy it. The kids sometimes, "Mum, why? You're weird." I'm like, "No, I just want to be a commander or a doctor or something." And you actually went out there, you put in the time, you put in the effort, and you made the experience and the situation what you wanted it to be, which is probably why you had such a positive response. You went in wanting it to be, um, exactly what it was for you. I think, I think that's fantastic. And yeah, call yourself doctors as much as you want to. I'm interested, now that you've finished The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell, are you still into your true crime podcasts? Oh yes, I still am. Yes. Um, and I mean, I was listening to the, um, podcast. I'm listening to podcasts about Lucy Letby at the moment. Oh, um, wow. No, I couldn't do it. That must be hard listening. It is hard listening. It is hard listening. And it's just, well, it's horrifying really, isn't it? That, um, and my, my daughter listened. She said to me, she told me to listen to the Lucy Letby one, and she says at the beginning she felt Oh my God, Lucy was innocent. But as soon as she was in the dock, you just realized that, you know, she just didn't remember anything, didn't remember anything important, you know. And, uh, and, and then told different stories to the things that the parents were saying. Well, a parent is not going to forget or get it wrong, are they, you know? Well, but, but this is when you're recounting something that's happened, people lie, but also 'People have subjective opinions about what happened. They have incorrect memories.' Um, what a minefield. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Um, now something I like to ask all my guests here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's radio station, because we're, um, mental well-being focused, is the 3 top tips on trying to maintain a good level of mental well-being. Um, what are the 3 things you try and do to just Obviously years and years and years of, of, uh, doing a PhD. Well, I think I have to put number one writing at the top of my list. So I think you can do writing for yourself, you can keep a journal, um, you can keep a diary, I think, or you can go into creative realms as well. But I think something about writing, I, is the ultimate mindfulness. Because you are really focused on what you are doing, what you are writing, what you want to convey. So for that, that I think that is the key, you know, that, that, you know, you don't have to think about being mindful if you're writing. You actually are because you're in that story, you're in that anecdote, you're in that experience of what— of your recording. So yeah, that would be top of my list. I actually think, um, running and writing are a good combination. So I think running is a good way. Not at the same time, it can be problematic. Yeah, I know that would be challenging, wouldn't it? But I think, um, running— I mean, I came late to running. I've only been running for about 6 years. Um, but I think again, I, I do that mindfully too. I, I do Parkrun in Richmond, and, um, that is, you know, I have to really focus because it's like downhill half the way and uphill the rest of the way, and It's about, you know, for me when I'm running, I'm doing self-coaching all the way around because I'm quite target-driven. So I'm always trying to get a PB or, you know, improve on the last week or, you know, do a little bit better. So I am mindful when I'm doing that as well. So I'm thinking, oh, can you run a bit faster here? Or can you do a longer stride? Or, you know, and all the way around. I really love that. And the other quite simple thing I would say is when you're out, look at the sky, you know, just keep your chin up and look at the sky rather than, you know, if you're having troubles, it's so much, it's your inclination to look down and look at the ground. So I think if you want to lift your spirits a little bit, a very simple trick is look up, look at the sky. I absolutely love that because I do sometimes just naturally don't look up enough. Sometimes we're wanting to avoid eye contact if we're in a little bit of a headspace, but, you know, look up a little bit further, possibly you're not at eye contact level if you're generally struggling with that kind of concept. But I love that, and I must say the running thing as well. If I ever, if I'm struggling to come up with an idea, maybe for my next blog, or I've got an issue with my family or friends that I want to mull over, the earphones will be in, but there's nothing playing, and I run and think it through while I'm running. And before you know it, you've done 4, 5, 6K, and it's fantastic. So Love those. Thank you so much. We have unsurprisingly run out of time, and thank you so much, Dr. Gail Aldwyn, for joining me on Gail Cooked. And congratulations on the book. I'm sure the reviews are going to come in thick and fast, and they're all going to be absolutely fantastic. And I can't wait for the next one, so please do drop us a line when that one comes out. Right, I'll certainly do that. And thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. Oh, me too. Thank you so much, and enjoy the rest of your day. Such a great chat there with today's guest, Gayle Aldwyn, on The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell. You can find out more about Gail on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or just pop on to her website at gailaldwin.com. Now it's time for a little author-read extract of today's book, The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell, written and read by Gail Aldwin. Chapter 1, 2014. It was well past 5 o'clock when Stephanie prepared to leave the office. Glancing through the window, a great belly of clouds suggested a downpour was likely. She opened her desk drawer expecting to see her foldable umbrella tucked beside the desk tidy which always contained a ready-sharpened HB pencil. Not in its correct place, Stephanie wondered where the hell it was. From the corner of her eye she saw Doug approaching. He probably wanted to share one of his larger-than-life stories and she really wasn't She wasn't in the mood. 'Can I have a word?' he asked. 'I was about to go home.' 'It's important,' Doug frowned. 'Let's go to my office.' 'Shit, right this minute?' Doug didn't answer, just turned, and Stephanie was obliged to follow. They walked through rows of abandoned hot desks. Conciergerie colleagues cleared their workspaces while others left the detritus of a birthday celebration. —screwed up napkins, cake crumbs and a shrivelled pink balloon. Stephanie remembered the days of greasy fingerprints on a shared keyboard. Honestly, there should be some rules about office hygiene. That was before the restructure at the West Country Post. Now she had a permanent base in a quiet corner and the title of Features Editor. Doug took his place behind the desk and Stephanie sat opposite. 'What's all this about?' she asked. Doug tapped the manila folder in front of him. 'I expect you know what's coming.' 'Expect what?' Stephanie undid a button on her cardigan as heat surged. Of all times to have a hot flush. 'You must have heard the rumours.' 'Rumours?' Her fingernail snagged on the buttonhole stitching. Oh, for an emery board! Also stored in her desk tidy. She was tempted to bite the jagged edge of nail to prevent it catching on anything else, but she stopped herself. 'Are you all right, Stephanie?' 'Absolutely.' She crossed one 'ten-ten-ya' pale crystal leg over the other. 'This business needs knocking into shape and economies have to be made,' said Doug. 'Don't worry, I'm not going to stockpile the office stationery to take home.' Doug didn't even crack a smile. Jokes aside. Bloody hell. She flapped her collar in an attempt to cool down. The Menoese sage tablets she'd been taking for the last few months were having little or no effect. There are to be redundancies. I see. She glanced at Doug and his look of consternation made her realize she should say more. If it's the only way forward, I'm glad you feel like that. I've been dreading this moment. My shoulders are broad, Doug. You know I can take on extra responsibilities. You don't understand. Doug's expression was strangely contorted. This made Stephanie focus. Her cheeks were rosy and probably complemented her— his cheeks were rosy and probably complemented her own shade of too much heat. 'What's wrong?' she asked. 'I'm afraid it's your job that's being cut. I'm very sorry.' As the news sank in, Stephanie sagged. Doug droned on about payments and notice periods and new beginnings, but nothing registered. 'I thought we were...' She was going to say friends. Christ, how had it come to this? She'd been at the post for so long. 'What about the big new project?' 'Change of plan,' Doug sighed. 'You know how it is.' Returning to her desk, Stephanie saw the umbrella hanging by its cord from the coat stand. There it was. She gripped it, thinking somehow the folded spokes could steady her. Loyalty to the post meant nothing. She flung the umbrella at her chair, and when metal hit metal, there was a loud dong. Fortunately, no one saw her little act of rebellion. Or the tears streaming down her face. Just a quick reminder, that was The Secret Life of Carolyn Russell, read by the author and today's guest, Gail Aldwyn. Do you know what? I absolutely love doing this show, opening discussions and offering support by the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved. And if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/gail-aldwyn. GetBooked, and on our SoundCloud. Make sure you keep up to speed with what's going on on GetBooked. You can either follow me on Twitter @NuttyButty or on my GetBooked Instagram, which is @GetBookedWRS. Thank you so much for listening to today, and as ever, playing us out is a little sneaky peek at a previous show aired here at Women's and Men's Radio Station. Enjoy the rest of your day. Hey! Right, my lovelies, now it is time for today's guest, Maria Lewis, and her book The Graveyard Shift. The killer is out there and they're listening. I love thrillers and I read this in the perfect setting to just kind of holidaying alone while also being a radio presenter who is regularly in the studio solo. It's a good old thriller. Slasher akin to the kind of Scream franchise, but with far better writing, less cheese, and a great dose of pop culture. Now, just how far will some people go to not have their dreams slashed? Ah, so what I did there— to hold their ground when the world is oversaturated with competition and egos? Tinsel Monroe has finally worked her way through the ranks to have her own paid radio show, The Graveyard Shift, literally. Although a a show focused on cult thrillers is going to attract a certain clientele. What unfolds is beyond most radio presenters' level of comfort. Luckily, Tinsel's sister Pandora is on hand with her investigative expertise to uncover what the hell is going on. Maria, thank you for joining us on Get Booked. How the devil are you? I'm good. What an amazing intro. I don't know if anyone in my— I don't know if I will take any compliment stronger and more seriously than saying the writing in the Graveyard Shift is better than Scream. That has absolutely tickled my pickle. Oh my God, definitely better than Scream 3 for sure, but I don't know if I'm quite up to the standard of the others, but I'll take it. It's— I mean, because it was kind of a little bit— I mean, you write characters fantastically, um, and I love how you kind there was— I was kind of giggling sometimes at a book about someone getting kind of constantly slashed and people getting murdered left, right, and center. But I think it was kind of like how you brought a lot of normalcy to these kick-ass characters who are still in, you know, shitty relationships and still kind of failing in other areas and smashing it in others. But that's normal, right? And I assume that was quite intentional. Yeah, I just think this idea, um, and it's a very old-school idea, I think the narrative on this is changing, But, um, you know, separate to this being a slasher, right, each character existing and having their own life— like, this is the thing with stories like this, is I think the best kind of characters and the best sort of immersive storytelling, it doesn't feel like you're at the beginning. It feels like you've immediately stepped into somebody's life. You've stepped into the middle of their story. And this idea that women can have it all is a fairy tale and maybe impossible, and it's just like I don't know about you, but I've never really had that thing where it's like my career will be going great and my relationships are going great simultaneously. It's like one thing or the other, or like one thing is up, one thing is down, or like, you know, your health might be growing really great and then something else might be not going so great. And just that feeling like the, you know, the narrative is that's abnormal, but the reality is that's normal. That's the human experience, right? Is that your life comes in seasons and there are sometimes that are like career season, sometimes a love season, sometimes a family season, all that kind of stuff. And so I wanted Tinsel and Pandora, both of them specifically, like obviously Tinsel's our in-character. She's the one who brings the audience into the story and she's, you know, sort of the driver of narrative. But Pandora is such a big part of her world, and I really wanted those two sisters to feel really real and lived and authentic as they are living through a slasher, you know what I mean? Yeah, it kind of interwoven really, really well and just kind of— you kept on getting these surprises of kind of what you would expect a certain character to be or what they would admit to. And then— no, I enjoyed it. I just— it kind of felt a little bit comforting in a weird way. Of a thriller? Slash? Well, yeah, I mean, I— horror movies are my favorite thing in the world. It's like my favorite genre, period, whether that's TV, film, books, whatever. And it is a comfort for me, which I think it is for particularly like women's place in horror. I think it's a comfort for a lot of women is because you're watching the horror happen to somebody else rather than happen to you, because, you know, statistically women are the ones who horror happens to. And so the final girl mechanic has, I think, always been something that's really connected to me because it's like you watch these women who are interesting and complicated and prickly go through stuff and come out the other end. And yes, okay, maybe sometimes that's Michael Myers getting decapitated and somehow he comes back with a head in the next movie, but the like central message is, you know, it's there. It's, it's comforting in that way. And I was sort of— I've always been a fan of the literary slasher, but as a genre, it really died off sort of in the '70s and '80s. And like, you know, I Know What You Did Last Summer was a book that I really loved, and sort of like, as slashers were taking over in the film space, they were sort of dipping off in publishing. And it's exciting as somebody who loves to consume them and had a lifelong dream of getting to write one that we're at this intersection now where there's actually like quite a few slashers bubbling popping up pop culturally in film and television, but also in the literary space, which is wonderful because it means I can like elbow my way in there. Well, I was having a look actually because you've written quite a few books, and I'd say this is quite— this is slightly different, isn't it, what you normally— the normal genre? The Graveyard Shift is my 10th book, uh, and all of my previous books have all been, let's say, fantasy in some regard. Um, urban fantasy used to be the big term, but that sort of like died off. But like speculative fiction, You know, I've written a superhero book for Marvel. I had a series of 8 novels that was all about different types of women as monsters. So a banshee book, a werewolf book, a witch book, a medium book, a sprite, a selkie, and they all crossed over into like a big finale in book 8. So I'm better known for fantasy and speculative fiction, but genre broadly is the space that I operate in. And, you know, books are something that has always been my passion., but my primary job is as a screenwriter. And so I primarily work in film and television, writing on TV shows, writing films, stuff like that. And that space, I have done a lot more horror, but it's just really fascinating, like, especially when you do an event or a signing or something like that, um, or you pop it up at a pop culture convention, it's always really fascinating to see where people— like, what's the Venn diagram of intersection of where people know you from. You have your book fans, obviously, but, um, you know, I also— in Australia, I was on this, um, live nightly news show for years called The Feed, which was like youth news. So you have a lot of loyal Feed watchers, and then you have people who know me from more of the film and television stuff, and it's intersexual that way. But I started out my career as a police reporter at a local newspaper, and so yeah, it had always been something that had been really interesting to me, and and I'd always had to do radio work in some capacity, whether that was on guest— guesting on other people's shows, or— and as I moved into more film and TV stuff, it was something that popped up all the time. So it was always like the world of radio was always in my life as a function of my job, but crime was always something that I was like covering and doing and familiar with the mechanics of, um, and trying to find a way for the two of them to intersect. And like, okay, yes, it is a slasher and there's always an element of disbelief, but you know, you see things like the Moscow Murders, for instance, and you're like, actually, this stuff happens all the time. Stuff like this happens every day. And young people, people from all different backgrounds get caught up in this essentially like cycle of terror. And I think there's a lot to talk about in terms of like PTSD and women and how they move through that space. And I was just seeing so many literary slashes, um, talking about female trauma that were written by men or written by men under female pseudonyms, and it was really giving me the shits. And I was like, you know what, okay, I'm like 9 books in now. Like, it's really hard to pivot when you're known for one thing to shift to another genre. And so I was sort of hoping that horror broadly, which is what the, you know, The Graveyard Shift fits into, wasn't too much of a left turn from what different publishers know me for. And so I was thankful that my agent, um, Ed Wilson, was like really able to sort of, you know, fight to get it out there. And this being my first murder mystery, I hope I get to do more because I love the genre and I love getting to sort of elbow my agenda in there, whether it's pop culturally or diversity or, you know, women and like different ages of women as well. I think is really important, this sort of like idea that everyone's, um, an 18-year-old virgin in stories. I'm just like, actually, there's a whole breadth of world and possibility to get into when you're talking about, um, you know, grown adults. Do you know what I found really interesting and relatable? I mean, also your knowledge of of radio and community radio really helped kind of— I was so stressed, stressed about us having this chat because I was like, there's lots of things you can bluff your way through, but this isn't one of them. And also, like, you know, lots of people who have been consuming the book and have been reaching out about their responses to it don't have your background, don't work in radio in that space, so don't know like the technical specifics. And I really like twice, you know, shadowed a friend of mine, um, Hal Lotakefu, who runs The Hip Hop Show in Australia, which is like a sort of, you know, he's one of Australia's hip-hop pioneers, um, and that show was groundbreaking, and it was the overnight slot. So it was one thing to be like, yes, I have radio experience, but like, can I shadow someone who works in that exact slot, who is in a studio by themselves, who is the only person in there, and like Urban Legend has that scene with Tara Reid where, um, she gets attacked while doing her, uh, sex show at the college campus. And I was just like, it's such a creepy setting, and if you can find a way to sort of stretch it out of just a setting or just a mechanic, I thought that was an interesting space to play in. Uh, yeah, definitely. I mean, the thing is, you, you nailed the whole element of why you wouldn't just— why Tinsel wouldn't back off when she was in danger. Because we work our ass off to get into these positions, and some people work in radio for 10, 15, 20 years, still do, where they never get paid but they love it, or they want to bring something to the community. And when you finally get a job where you're getting paid, you're like, you are not going to scare me out of this. And then you have especially women going, I'm fed up of being made to be scared so that I am less than, and that came across in the book. So that kind of— not only was it kind of thrilling, but I was kind of getting angry for Tinsel at the same time. I was like, yes, you might get stabbed, but no one's taking that slot from you. Yeah, no, oh my God, I, um, I kind of always have like a thin sheen of rage sort of like just under the surface in my everyday life, right? And it's not just within— in journalism spaces, the things that used to really frustrate me was when you would get, you know, death and rape threats from, um, people who are mad about a film that you wrote about, or you— they felt like you weren't giving Zack Snyder enough credit for XYZ thing and therefore you deserve to die. And it's like you couldn't operate in certain spaces. And it took me a while to sort of really understand that, you know. And these were people who would like find out where you lived, show up at events, like really threatening, scary stuff. And it was always this thing The, like, the line that you used to—