Hello, this is Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield and I love doing this show. Get Booked is all about talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Even some of the bad ones too. And sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Now, for today's show, we have Ross Patrick on, and he's going to be telling us about his novel, A New Dark Age. When the collapsing began in a system where scarcity was a commodity, there was always a need for the unemployed, the homeless, and the hungry. When most people could no longer afford consumer goods, there were riots. The rulers called it an attack on democracy. The riots were met with militarized armored police. With falling tax revenues, companies took over financing the police, so the police increasingly functioned as capitalism's own Praetorian Guard, sometimes supporting rival business leaders, sometimes bringing about their demise. And all the while, living standards fell and the state started to crumble. For Esme Sedgbrooke, growing up in the provinces, there is no future other than an arranged marriage, motherhood, and domesticity. Fleeing to join the uprising is as much about personal transformation as it is political. What an absolute treat this book was. There is so much going on. It's set in the future, pure dystopian, and just at its best. But we do have Ross here to go into more detail about 'A New Dark Age.' Can we squeeze this into an hour? I guess we're about to find out. Ross, hi, how are you? Hello, I'm good. As I said in our— when we spoke before, other than being tired from a night shift, and so probably going to be a bit slow, but I'll try my best. No, that's quite all right. Well, the thing is, the subject matter is something that you are a professional on because, you know, you wrote it. Now, there is a lot happening in 'A New Dark Age.' So let's break it down a little bit. It's set in year 20— it's quite a few years ahead. 2061, I think it is. 2061, wow. And yet it seems to have gone back a few hundred years, which is quite alarming. And I was reading this book and I kind of feel like you've had a little bit of fun with certain elements of it, especially, you know, with the Amazon factories and the Gordon's gin factories and whatnot, and, you know, symbolism of Nike and whatnot. Did you have a little bit of fun with discussing the decline of society? Yeah, I'm actually quite sort of pleased you pick up on that because I think in many ways it's actually quite a dark book really, but I did have quite a lot of fun actually throwing things in there, and I think this, for me at least, there's quite a lot of sort of somewhat dark but nonetheless dark humour. So yeah, I did have quite a bit of fun actually, yeah. I mean, you've got to put a little bit of dark humour in any sort of humour in something that's so quite scary, and yet, you know, these dystopian novels that are coming out, they're coming out for a reason because we keep on hearing, you know, little whispers of how, you know, people want the good old days and how everything's out of control. And, you know, A Dark Age is about everything just completely breaking down. And, you know, gone is the internet, and, you know, people don't share their lunches on Instagram in 2061 in the new dark age, do they? Uh, no, I suppose they don't. I think what kind of interested me was that, I don't know, certainly I always felt that when people think about the future and even a sort of scary future, it was always the kind of the idea that technology become even more kind of powerful. And in some ways I can see why that, that is quite scary, but it just struck me that it'd be quite interesting to, to think about things we've become used to that we think are sort of just a natural way of life kind of falling away and disintegrating, and then how that might kind of affect how people live and relate even, I think. Well, I mean, a new Dark Age really does go back to the bare bones. I mean, we're talking like 1600s, 1700s of a sort, aren't we? And although it would be incredibly horrific, it's way too many steps backwards. However, there's that element in, you know, modern society where I'm sure many of us just think it's just too much. I mean, literally, you can have a conversation with a friend at the table, Alexa's listening, before you know it she's suggesting things through your email as to what you might like because it was to do with your conversation. You know, there's, you know, there's technology is so advanced it's actually quite scary, and this whole I— this dystopian genre really does feed into that element, doesn't it? Sorry, the element of the fear of— of just how advanced we are and just how everything is monitored. And it's so, so technically advanced that, you know, anybody can be found, anything can be discovered, anything can be obtained within the drop of a hat. And it's just— It's quite scary for some people just how advanced we are, and I think most of us aren't actually even aware of how advanced our society is. And it's scary, isn't it? And I'm sure there's so many people that go, "Oh, I long for the good old days, you know, where we didn't know what everybody was doing, and, you know, if we went out and did something, you know, it wasn't on a grid somewhere." There's, you know, there is nothing that's really by surprise anymore, and I most definitely do not want the dystopian genre to come into fruition, but it really is pulling on something within society where they're just thinking it's gone too far. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that there is a— I think we live in an age in which, in a sense, we sort of like, we imagine that we're freer than ever in what we can do, and yet it feels sometimes as if we're scrutinized more than ever, you know. And as you say, every sort of moment of our lives can be public now, can't it, with social media. And there is a kind of an intensity and a pressure to that. And I think, honestly, we may talk about sort of mental health issues later, and I think certainly that never being free of that kind of technology as part of your life, I think probably does add pressure to how people are, and I think it could make people— put strain on how people are, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, a good 20 years ago we didn't know what we were missing. Now we know what we're missing because Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, you know, even WhatsApp tells us what we're missing continuously. But you know, the technological advances are helping us live longer. They're helping us to connect. You know, it takes with one hand and it gives with another. Um, and before I go off on a complete and utter tangent that will lead this show to be at least 5 hours long, um, I really just want to break it down for our listeners. What, what led to the new dark age? What happened with consumerism? And as we said in the, in the intro, um, scarcity tea being a commodity? So, um, I think it's like initially I was just— this is going back years, maybe 10 years ago or something— I was just interested. I'm interested in history and, and the idea of what would happen if the things that we take as being natural sort of just fall away. So initially I was just interested in, in you know, if the normal sort of day-to-day things we expect aren't there, then how does that change our lives? If government isn't so important, if we're more reduced to small communities, you know, how that changes how we live. And it was really not particularly linked to worries about the world around me now, actually, so much. It was genuinely a kind of, a kind of just an interest in almost a 'what if?' What if this world we've become so used to falls away? And so certain things would develop and emerge, I think, some of which might be quite good. We may become more, less isolated, less individualistic. Obviously other things very bad. But I think in more recent— as I came to write the book, which was sort of from about 2018 onwards, there was quite a few things in the world that you could sort of pick up on. And certainly, you know, we're living through an age of austerity where, you know, there are more food banks than ever, where people can't afford houses. And, you know, particularly I think in the South, in London, the house prices just to rent are astronomical. So that people are sort of putting off— sorry. No, I was just going to say, yeah, the thing is, it's so polarised, isn't it? And I guess this book is talking about life being polarised. You say that there are so many more food banks, and there are people, I reckon, even within 200 yards of myself, you know, that can't actually afford to feed their family. And yet there are many people just on my street alone with £100,000 cars, they're living in a two-up two-down that's worth a million £20 million. You know, there are people who are spending, you know, they've got 5 different homes and each of them are at least in excess of £20 million. And it's just, you know, that is London, that is around here, you know, it's in some of the counties as well. And it's bonkers, isn't it? And there is something fundamentally wrong. Yeah, I mean, I do think that we've we've drifted, um, here in Britain and probably also in America, in Europe, certainly in Britain, away from a— more and more it seems that all sort of wealth and power is sort of consolidated in sort of fewer and fewer people, and more and more people are kind of left behind. And I think that when that happens, you're more likely to get extreme reactions. So, you know, I mean A few years ago when the Brexit thing happened, and without going into the contentious politics of that, there was that— you used to hear a lot of the time about left-behind Britain, these communities that felt completely alienated and being allowed to just drift. And so you get these more extreme reactions, I think, when you do have this sense that there is a layer of people, you say in London particularly perhaps, who live a very good life whilst more and more people, not just in the sort of left-behind northern provinces, but also in London, which is, you know, huge amounts of sort of poverty and homelessness and so on. And I think perhaps one of the things that I thought about with the book was the fact that that is more likely to lead to extreme reactions, whether those are good or bad, you know, just— Well, yes, because in society, unfortunately, the more people have, the more they get, and the less people have, it separates people to an us and them, and then people aren't working together. When people aren't working together, essentially they're working against each other, and this is, I guess, how these dystopian-style tales kind of form. It's their basis. And it's interesting how— the only thing is, with these kind of— well, with this genre, the people who are in charge are what, 5, 10%? And so there has to be an element of fear instilled because the numbers don't work otherwise to be in charge. And that's what happens. And definitely with the agents in A New Dark Age, there had to be fear, there had to be hierarchy to make sure that they stayed in charge, knowing full well that, you know, it's probably even pushing it saying that the top 5%, you know, were in charge and making sure people stay in their place and feel like they want to stay in their place or they're too scared to. And, you know, as the book goes on, this is about people trying to make a stand, if not for them, but for the future of other people. Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly so. And I think the point you make about the few— I mean, people talk these days about the 1%, and as you say, if the 1%, if more and more people feel that there is this 1% who are doing very, very well their expense, then the 1%, as you say, are going to have to become more and more violent, basically, to retain their power and their dominance. Story as old as time, isn't it, really? Well, it is, and I don't think it's even just political, really. I don't know how much I put this in the book. I think I've made a little bit of a reference to it, which is that I think to some extent all relationships have a kind of power dynamic to them. And so, yeah, as you say, it's old as time that, you know, the people who dominate will want to dominate more, and if their dominance is threatened, they may become nastier to maintain that, which is, I suppose, quite a bleak view in some ways. But what I did find quite bleak as I was reading, I mean, yes, there was the whole, uh, Neptune and the marriage ceremony and how things are just a little bit bonkers about, you know, the way that life is in 2061 in terms of a new dark age. But as I was reading it, I was— it was really weird. I got a bit sad and I was thinking, oh, all the hard work over the last 20, 30 years for, you know, um, gender fluidity and being accepted and being individualistic and, you know, love is love, everybody can be who they want to be. And then it goes completely back to— it's like all the hard work was erased and I was going, "Oh, that's not nice, I don't like that." I mean, it was, yeah, it's a little bit of modern life taken away that we're getting so used to just being there and you forget how when things are taken away from you, how much you miss it. It really upset me actually, I was just sitting there going, it's not fair, people can't be who they want to be anymore. Well, I think that's in a way true, I think that a society that's less, I don't know, modern, if you want to use probably the wrong word, but in a less— Accepting. Yeah, well, I think it becomes less accepting. I think you get two things happening once, you get a more tightly knit community, which can be quite good, but it's also a community that polices itself much more, much more closely, and where, yeah, there's much more defined roles that are imposed on you. I certainly think for me an important aspect of this was, you mentioned sort of gender fluidity, particularly I think gender politics, because I think that Unfortunately, if society sort of was to move backwards, and that didn't even have to be, you know, the loss of technology and things as in New Dark Age, but just in some way we have a sort of a more authoritarian rule or— yeah, any kind of dystopia. I think one of the— unfortunately, I think women would suffer. I think that you can look at certain Eastern European countries where there are some very strange policies with regard to kind of women's rights and also parts of America where, you know, the right to choose and things are being debated. And I, you know, so when writing the book, I think it was, it was, it always seemed to me that the position of women in this sort of society would be, I think, much more much more defined, well, defined by men, but produced. Yes. That makes sense? Yeah, no, it completely does. And the whole idea that, you know, one of the main characters, Esme, was expected to be married, you know, from 16 onwards, she's prime and ready. And if she waited another couple of years, she'd be put out to pasture. And pretty much it was her duty to just marry, to marry well, whoever her father dictated. And that to produce children and to be in a business, and it was, yes, stifling. And I do like it that it was based on, you know, her finding her individuality and finding some power within a very distressing system. So, you know, kudos to you for that one as well. I'm glad you mentioned that because that really was the probably the most important thing was the idea of this person has a— stifling is exactly the word— very sort of stifling existence, and about them trying to find that personal empowerment, that personal sense of self almost, more than in a sense of politics or dystopia in a way. And I must say, reading through this book, it was one of those books that you would kind of— it's a bit like a friend of mine, Russ Kane, wrote a book called The Gatekeeper, and I kept on having to put the book down and go and check whether what he was talking about it was written with such authority whether it was real, and a lot of it was, and the research you went into into this book was incredible. Similarly with A New Dark Age, some of the detail you went into, even just locations and some of the terminology, and I mean it's just— you said you've got quite a passion for history anyway. Did you do an incredible amount of research? Was all this just whirling around in your head? Um, for research makes it sound like I really sort of, um, labored and sort of suffered for it, and it was a lot of it just came from things that I became interested in. So, right, history, so I got into that. I sort of like a magpie would sort of pick things up from all over the place that were kind of, um, interesting to me and then kind of throw them all in together and just sort of cut out the bits that didn't work was That's sort of the idea really. Oh, I love that. Did it take quite a while to write this book? Because I mean, it's a decent-sized book, not too much, not overwhelming, but there's a lot going on. So it's not a case of, you know, each sentence to me seems like you must have had to have gone and fact-check and then kind of laboured over it. Was it an easy write? Was it Did you just sit down and just master away over a few months and made sure that you, you were very strict about how long you wrote for each day? Well, I had quite a lot of time because I was not really leaving the house very much when I started writing it. And I just kind of, I have a kind of, I don't, I'm not a very organized person, so I don't kind of work out in advance what I'm going to write and how what it's going to be. I sort of write and then kind of revise and edit and rewrite what I've written and sort of layer the ideas up and hopefully something kind of grows out of that. So it's quite a kind of organic and fluid process really. I like that. I think it's better when it's organic rather than— you hear about people saying that they have to, they've got 2 hours that they've got to write each day and I just think, wow, if I was forced to do something in a certain time and that's not going to help my creativity. And I know that some sometimes we need to be kind of forced to pursue something sometimes and actually get on with it, otherwise we can procrastinate. But yeah, with something quite creative, it needs to work when it's right for you. Yeah, I mean, I can't speak for other people, but I think, you know, the idea of you had to sit down, 2-hour session, then you have a break, and do the 2 hours— like you say, that seems incredibly kind of regimented. And sometimes if you write for too long, you kind of get this feeling that you're kind of stretching it and it's not, it doesn't feel as good as it did a bit earlier. And then other times you just sort of, it flows and so you just sort of go with it. But I don't know, I can't really speak for the people really, that's just my experience. Everybody's different and I think it's nice just to hear other people's options because I think sometimes people hear again the whole, you must sit for 2 hours each day and focus and think, and people think, well, I can't do that, I'm never going to be able to write a book or this doesn't work for me. Find your own way, listen to other people's ways, and just kind of mesh it all together and find what works for you. And now moving on to a little bit about you, and you said that you were kind of housebound for a little bit, and I hope you don't mind me discussing this bit because this is a mental health and mental well-being station, both women's radio station and men's radio station, and I think it's good for people to talk about things that have happened to them, things that they've experienced. And I think it ties in quite well with writing a book as well, because I think the idea of, you know, producing something so incredible as to finish a novel and to write, which I think is brilliant for our well-being. Are we okay to talk about some of the issues that you've had over the last 5 or 6 years? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've had, other than a lost decade, which I must say was more to do with working in wine retail, wasn't it? Well, I was also— well, I was— I'm a bit confused now. I hear that you used to work in wine retail and you were a fan. I worked in wine retail but in a very localized way, I worked in a wine shop. Brilliant. Education for a bit, and I was in care work for, well, sort of care work for a bit, in the sense I looked after an aging relative for a bit. Yeah, that was sort of the last 10 years, I suppose. And then, yeah, I mean What kind of education were you working in? I was teaching higher education. Oh, okay, brilliant. And I wonder if you'll be asked to go back again and talk about writing. We'll soon see, watch this space. So I gathered that you had a breakdown Back in 2014. And how are you doing now? What have you found has helped you and how have you progressed? Well, 2014 was pretty bad. It was the end of my time in education and to be honest, it's really weird to look back to 2014 because 2014 and really 2015 I was— I mean, it's difficult to explain, but it's like there's just this noise in my head constantly, and I literally didn't function. I mean, I didn't— for a period, I was barely sort of getting dressed or eating. Eventually I sort of— suicide attempt. At that point, I was kind of invalided back to my parents' house. Um, where I then kind of hid for about sort of 4 years or so. Oh wow, that's quite some time. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if it was just me being slow, get— pulling my stuff— self together or, or what, but, um, no, I think you've got to look at that differently because some people don't give themselves time and then they wonder why they're not healing or why their life isn't turning around. By me saying that's quite some time, I think that's fantastic that you actually gave yourself that time. Sometimes people live in a society where people want to rush everything and then they don't do things properly. Yeah, I mean, I think I was— some ways I was lucky in that, you know, I had a place where I come back to and, you know, not be pushed to go out. And, you know, I did, you know, I sold the house that I had, so I didn't then have mortgages and went to pay. So I was kind of fortunate in that respect, but certainly the first couple of years I really wasn't able to function, basically. I can remember sitting in the, in the grounds of the hospital in Kettering where I went to sort of see psychiatrists, and just, just sitting there and watching this electric buggy driving by and just not really knowing what the hell was going on. Um, it just took so long for that noise just to, just to come down. Um, and it's a gradual thing. I mean, there's, um, I don't know how familiar you are with like Eckhart Tolle and that kind of thing, and I'm not particularly familiar with it, but I heard this thing that he said that I think certainly sort of resonated with me, which was that you almost have to go through the darkness to the other side of it, you know, you can't sort of fight back about it, you've actually sort of got to go through it and inside. Well, I mean, he's a huge fan of like something else I gather you're quite into, the philosophy of consciousness, but I wholeheartedly agree. How can you understand where some people get to if you haven't experienced experienced it yourself, or if those people who have experienced it, um, haven't been able to talk about it. We all need to understand each other a little bit more, to have a bit more compassion. And what, what I love about Get Booked is that I come across people who have suffered horrific tragedy or mental health issues, or they've experienced something in their family, and then they write book about it to help people understand. And I just think what a fantastic job for me to have where I get to help people not only share, I get to speak to these people who have experienced something horrific and they've done something positive with it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, um, yeah, that's just, yeah, incredible. And, and so as you've now— do you ever just sit there and look back and think, this is where I was, you know? 6, 7 years ago, and now I'm speaking to people about a book that I've got frickin' published and I've achieved. Do you not just think, I couldn't, it must, you must sit there sometimes and just go, this, I didn't even think I'd want to pick up a pen, let alone write a 330-word novel. And you must just sit there sometimes and just go, yay me, I'm smashing it out the park. The writing of it was quite easy because that's quite private, and so I really enjoyed that bit. And then, and then sort of this kind of thing is quite new to me, and it feels quite a lot of exposure, um, and I've suddenly become very kind of self-aware again and really kind of, um, I have to kind of try and ground myself and center myself and kind of remember that it's really about having fun and about enjoying even this, even though I probably come across very awkwardly and stammeringly. Even this is something to enjoy and try not to, try not to kind of like think, try to think too far into the future, too far into the past, or all the things you can't, I can't control or do anything about. And just in each moment, just try and sort of, yeah, like just try and enjoy it really. However falteringly I'm in this interview, however falteringly I'm sounding. You're not sounding faltering at all, but can you imagine if people were just listening to somebody perfectly just, just coming across like they breezed through life? That's not what people want to hear. It's not real, it's not relatable, it's It's not personable. We all need to be a little bit more honest with each other about, about life so that we all don't feel like we have so much to constantly live up to. You know, all the fakeness that you see on social media, and they make people just think, oh, well, I'm not doing well. And, you know, it's the basis for a lot of mental health issues because we have no idea who we're supposed to be and what we're supposed to expect. I must say, there are probably many people listening right now that are going, the fact that you're even talking about what you've gone through is incredible, and it's helping other people. People need it, and the fact that you're doing it is, is very generous. I mean, I think, I think one of the things that I felt after my breakdown and during slow period of recoveries is, as you said, as you mentioned, I think we talked about a moment ago, just how embarrassed, how sort of ashamed you can feel, how awkward you can feel about depression or about other kinds of mental illness. And weirdly, at the same time, I think it's certainly my perspective as somebody quite serious depression, there's an overwhelming desire to talk about it. Yeah, partly I think that kind of cathartic thing, you know, just to get it out. And I think partly actually because of the thing you were saying, that there is this— I think when you've really been low or when you've really had problems of any sort, I think it I think it probably does make you more kind of like empathetic, and, and yeah, or at least more— or at least it makes you try, I think, to, to appreciate other people's difficulties more. I, I think a lot more these days when I'm thinking about other people in life, you know, that we can't know it from their perspective, you know, whatever the— whoever they are, whatever the situation, we, we, we can't know what what their background is, what their story is at any moment, and the difficulties that they have. And I think that it does make you more acutely aware of that in some ways. Certainly, the more that we experience— the thing is, we don't necessarily have to understand somebody else's life or what they've gone through. We just have to appreciate it and give people compassion. Absolutely. And I think sometimes the feeling that we need to understand it is a mistake, because then it's if we don't understand it We don't give them the right to have that feeling or that outlook, rather than, as you say, just saying, that's your feeling and that's how you feel and that's how it is for you and that's valid because you feel it. And that's all that makes it kind of valid. Yeah, no, it makes complete sense. And something that I quite often ask my guests on Get Booked is for 3 top tips on mental health and mental wellbeing. And I've got a feeling you're gonna have cracking ones because you've really, you've had to put them into action, if that doesn't sound too glib. No, no, no, no. So I mean, I found walking really helpful. If you have the opportunity, particularly I think in the countryside, then maybe that's because I live in a smallish town, so I do walk in the countryside, but it may be the same if you're in a, you know, if you're in an urban area, there's maybe places you can go where you can just sort of detach yourself a little bit from your, from your, the rest of your day or your normal life. And then I don't know why I picked this up, but this idea of just sort of, as you're walking, noticing things and just actually kind of counting in your head, 15 seconds or something, and just counting as you watch the bird or as you watch the boat on the river or whatever it might be, or the train pass. And something about just sort of focusing on it, just what it is, and not thinking about it, not— but it just, it takes you away from all your other thoughts. And so you— I'd follow it, this, this thought, what, looking at this thing for 10 or 15 seconds, and I'd count. And then if I saw something else, I'd look at that and count in my head for sort of 10 or 15 seconds. You know what you're actually describing, Ross? That's, that's like, that's forest bathing. Have you heard of that? It's called what, sorry? Forest bathing. I hadn't, no, please. So basically, I mean, I quite often go for a walk and I've got Audible on in my earphones or got music or whatnot, or I'm chatting with friends as I walk, but sometimes all I need is complete silence and actually taking on board what's happening, you know, even if we're walking on our own and we're listening on the headphones to something, you're not taking in what's happening, you're not taking in nature, which is beautiful the majority of the time, or just consciousness. Even if you're walking on a path on a dual carriageway, notice that car that's going past, notice the woman on the opposite side of the road. And it's taking things in and it, and it's engaging with your consciousness, which is so incredible. And the whole idea of forest bathing is taking in nature and taking in your surroundings, which, you know, you can't do if you're doing many other things. And it is cathartic, it's fantastic. So that's pretty much what you've been describing. And, you know, it's making sure that we're not constantly doing 12 other things at the same time. Yeah, I didn't know it's called forest bathing, but yeah, that sounds very much like it. Yeah, I think I was— there was this— there's this, um, I can't remember if he's a psychiatrist or a philosopher or something, but he's called Iain McGilchrist, and he talks about left hemisphere and right hemisphere, and about how left hemis— I think it's left hemisphere of your brain is all sort of process and detail and how you work things out, and the right hemisphere is kind of like intuitive and sort of big picture. And he's sort of saying that we spend far too long in the kind of left hemisphere realm of sort of detail and very sort of methodical thought patterns and the right hemisphere apparently is like if you sort of meditate and that kind of thing where you just sort of open your mind up and allow— I'm probably making it sound a bit too new agey, but sort of just allow the space almost to be there rather than focusing on these details all the time. I can't remember which side of the hemisphere is which, I mean I think it's probably the way that you said as well but it I don't think it is necessarily new age, it's science. It's— well, yeah, I mean, I've heard about, you know, we're all too busy writing on our iPads or texting away, and the actual process of using a pen or a pencil and writing on a piece of paper, what that actually engages in whichever hemisphere it is, is incredible. And we need to be doing it to make sure that we don't lose the ability. You know, gets those synapses kind of sparking away a little bit. Yeah. And I think there's something about both the hemispheres interacting and so on. So that, as you say, that the synapses or whatever it is are all firing and connecting and so on. But yeah, and I say, so in terms of the walking thing, I just think that getting out of your normal routine and walking, and as you say, just forest bathing, I think you called it, just allows your head that space. To breathe, if that makes any sense. 100% makes sense. I mean, I'm a huge fan. In fact, if I don't get a walk in a day, I'm not very happy, and I make sure the next day, you know, it's not my 5 or 6K. I'm making sure it's a good 10K because I've got to get that mass right and get it back up again, just to give myself some status quo, to kind of level it out again. Yeah, absolutely, I agree with you. In fact, It's also that time out of life, isn't it? You know, that if you don't have— in your case, you didn't go for your walk, it's probably because you had 15 other things to do and so you didn't get the time to do it. And so, you know, it's also— life rushes on, doesn't it? And it piles up around you and it can be quite overwhelming. And, um, yeah, so it's quite nice to take that time out. I do actually have quite, um, there's quite a process with quite, uh, with a few of my girly friends that we all go out with our dogs and we, we basically chat incessantly. Oh, as women do. Um, and we will talk about anything and everything, and it's a bit like a brain dump, and we, we get everything off our chest, and then we feel a lot better, go back home to our, our kids or our partners or whatever, and we've been able to to get rid of whatever's troubling us or air it. And even if you're not getting somebody else's opinion, sometimes you just need to be heard. But what worries me, and this is why we have women's radio station and men's radio station, because women deal with things differently to men, and they quite often need to as well because of society or to do with how we're wired. And it does worry me that men don't always have that same outlet, you know. They don't go to the pub and talk about their feelings. They, you know, they talk about possibly, maybe in your respect, you know, how absolutely appalled you are with your football team. What's your football team? I think I've got it right. Nottingham Forest. I mean, that's going to be a lot of upset, isn't it? Well, they did well this weekend, but yeah, normally it is. It's been years of misery now, but Yeah, I mean, when you, when you were speaking, I, I was having this idea of going for a walk with friends and, and dumping, or, you know, they say it's a mental dump or unloading. I actually have a question, which is, do you feel comfortable doing that, or are there bits you hold back? Do you? I am very lucky with the friends I have. I can pretty much say anything to them, and they'll say the same, pretty much the same back to me. Sometimes you go, was that a bit too much? I'm like, nah. But I'm very lucky. Is that because you built the relationship with those people where there is that— where you're all conscious— not conscious, but you're all kind of— how does it mean? We've nurtured it. Yeah, we've— we kind of— we did it unconsciously to start off with. We'd all go out with our dogs, and then as work circumstances change and some people had to pull back on the walks a little bit, and then they suddenly started realizing they were getting quite down and struggling at home a bit more. And they're like, it's because I'm not getting my walk time. And it's not to do with the walking, it's to do with what we do on the walk and we talk things through. And now, and we only realised possibly about, we've been doing it for about 8, 9 years, and we only realised, you know, maybe about 4 or 5 years ago just how much we needed it. One of them even made sure instead of working 9 to 5, she works 10 to 6 so that she can do the walk, quarter to 9 till quarter to 10. Yeah, because she knew that she needed it. And I've regularly had some of the guys turn around and say, I wish we could join. I mean, but they still don't quite go to the same levels, but it's something you've got to propagate, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I suppose it would know— I mean, I can only see it from a male perspective, I suppose. And I think there are— I have had friends and do have friends that I can— I think where there is a sort of— I mean, I can— classic thing, I suppose, male-wise, is probably after the 'I'll bring you back a bit drunk.' I love you, man. Yeah, yeah. Or just that's the point where you sort of perhaps— I'm going back more years than recent times when I was younger. But, but yeah, I, I can see what you're saying about how men find it more difficult to talk emotionally, and therefore, um, there is another outlet maybe. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a difficult— it's strange. I'm just trying to think now, Rhiannon. And I mean, you do get male friendships, I think, where— and I can think of one friend who I've known since I was a small child, and I think it's almost that kind of openness and exchange of of those personal aspects of your life that you might be otherwise more guarded about. But I certainly recognize what you're saying, that men don't generally, or aren't generally as comfortable with that. And I don't really know why that is. Maybe it's, I don't know. I think it's just historical. I think it's, you know, do you remember back in the day when they say men don't cry? And I just I just think we need to— hopefully there's men listening now and saying, yeah, well, I'd like to create a space where— the more it's made it, um, approachable and acceptable, the more it will happen, and just the better life will be for everybody. But it's just, it's scary territory, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think, I mean, I was gonna say there's a sense of, of perhaps men feel in some way judged, but then I think the judgment that women feel is, is also very strong. So it can't just be a case of, oh, you know, if I say this thing, I'll be judged. But I suppose, as you say, historically there's always been this emphasis on men to be strong and confident and the whole kind of alpha male. And, and maybe that's quite inhibiting to that kind of emotional openness that, that you're kind of talking about, which I agree with you, is completely necessary. I had a therapist who told me that the biggest killer of men under 50 is suicide, um, which is, you know, um, perhaps relates to what you're saying about how if you don't have that capacity to, to emotionally unload, to emotionally connect even, um, because I think a lot of men in relationships don't really emotionally connect very well either, do they? I mean, there's often that As much as I make them try. I think it's really hard. I mean, there's— if you think about it, women are expected to— they want to have it all, and they're expected to do it all. And men have all of a sudden been told those roles that you've been assigned to for thousands of years, um, We're just going to shake it up a little bit. And just knowing where they stand and what they're supposed to be doing and who they're supposed to host, who they're supposed to be, it's, it's hard and it's exhausting. And I just think it's incredibly hard for men and women for completely different reasons. And, you know, before, there's a lot of women saying it's our turn now, you know, and we want to make sure that we have equal rights, and then it's men just saying, 'Well, where am I supposed to be? What am I supposed to be doing?' I think it's, yeah, forever changing. Yeah, and I think, I think that's true. I had a friend who lost his job a couple of years ago, and I think he found it quite difficult because in a way that perhaps his wife wouldn't have felt, particular kind of, of feeling which was Yeah, a sense, as you say, of, well, what, what am I for? What was my purpose? In fact, I think he, he ended up splitting his time between getting another job and looking after the child, which is, which is quite good. I think, I think these old roles that we've had, this kind of, you know, patriarchy and that kind of thing, I think obviously they're, they're worse for women than they are men, but I think they're also quite bad for men really, because They just trap us one way or the other, don't they? And obviously in terms of sort of life opportunities and so on, and just be able to have your voice heard. And the sort of— it's worse for women, but equally for men, there's also locked into certain roles which aren't really very healthy, you know. And yet you return to those prehistoric roles in a new dark age. Yeah, I mean, that was, that was part of, part of the idea really was, was, was precisely to sort of explore that really into, you know, I, I, I, I, I think that, that, um, as I said before, I think from a sort of social point of view, I think that if, if things got worse, I think that it would, it, people would retreat back into those kind of old-fashioned ways. I think part of living in a modern world is it allows a kind of more enlightened outlook, possibly. And in many ways, we haven't made as much progress probably as we think we have, or we might have done. And so it's very easy to sort of slip back, I think. Which is why people should read books like this, so they should figure out what not to do and what not to let happen. So So we don't actually, you know, progress can come in so many different forms, but we need to just protect fundamentally what is important to us and make sure that capitalism doesn't take over. Read the book to make sure it doesn't happen. Well, yeah. I think, I mean, I think one thing that, that in seriousness about sort of, you know, capitalism, the modern world and things, is it does make us very kind of materialistic and very individualistic and very— and it, it, we are quite a selfish culture in many ways, I think, now. And we're quite— the success of the individual is also, I think, to some extent, a problem, kind of relationships. And I think ultimately relationships are more important than things. And so— but we have opposing views from everybody. We're told, oh, you know, if you're successful, you need to shout it from the rooftops and own your success. And then you've got somebody else saying— and this is for men and women— other people saying, oh, well, you shouldn't go on about it too much because it's not fair on other people. And you're supposed to own your success, but but also be a little bit meek about it too and not shove it in people's faces. But then at the same time, you know, you need to try and promote positivity, but not too much so it gets other people down. And we're just, we're all sitting there just going, "I don't know what I'm supposed to do." Yeah, and I think that's exactly true. I think people do feel pushed and pulled in different directions, don't they? And yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I did kind of overtake your 3 tips on mental well-being and went off on a little bit of a tangent, which is something that happens very regularly on this show, but please, I do apologise, but also I really enjoyed that conversation. So thank you. So should I do the second one? Yeah, let's just try and get through the next 3 within, within what, the next 2 hours? Yeah, so I think the second one I said was, second tip for mental, good mental well-being, I mean, I find cooking quite therapeutic. I'm not a particularly good cook, but just that the process of doing it and having something completed. I think against that, I'm not against it, but is that if you are living on your own or if you're you know, live on your own basically, I think sometimes it can be quite difficult to sort of summon the enthusiasm to cook because you sort of go with the preparation, you prepare the meal and then it's just you eating it. But if you have other people ideally to eat with, then I think cooking is quite nice. I think you get a small sense of satisfaction from whatever you produce. I think it's— yeah, I really enjoy it. And I do actually— I live with my two children and my dog, and I am a vegetarian like yourself. And so I quite often either just make more to make sure I can put it in the freezer, or every Tuesday at work I'm taking in food and everyone's like, why do you keep on cooking for us? I'm like, I just want someone to cook for. All my kids want is meat. Yeah, no, and It's nice to share it with people, I think. I think that the process of eating— and actually it's true with walking as well, both these things. I think that when you— I was gonna ask you about this and I forgot to actually, but when you talk about, you know, you go out with your friends for a walk with dogs and then consciously this kind of led to talking more, I think there's something in the process of walking that makes talking easier. I mean, I found this, that somehow, in fact, probably if we were going for a walk now and talking, I'd be far less faltering and stammering than I am. There's something about walking which just allows the, I don't know, the rhythm of the steps or something allows you to kind of, your thoughts just to kind of tumble over one another and the whole thing to flow. And I think again with cooking, I think that there's something about eating with somebody else or with other people that just allows you to speak more, allows you to relax more. Well, there's less pressure, there's less— there's more of a distraction. Yeah, and I think there's also a kind of communion with other people. There's something about— I know it sounds a bit silly perhaps, but, you know, something about eating with somebody else, something about that shared kind of meal in a very kind of, I don't know, primitive way or something, I think is quite bonding in a sense. I think when you cook and you share it with somebody else, I think it was quite a, yeah, quite a kind of bonding experience in a way. That's overhyping it, it's just food, but you know. No, I don't think it is at all. I mean, it's that term, isn't it? You break bread with somebody, you're sharing a meal and you're doing something. No, I think I love that idea. I quite often have people over for dinner because I love the idea of being able to cook close, but just sitting there and sharing food and showing, you know, the care and attention that you've put into providing something nutritious or tasty for somebody, it's so much— it's so different from just saying, "I'll order in a takeaway." It's a sharing element, it's a creative element, and you're sharing that with somebody, and life is supposed to be for sharing, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, and I think the fact you're eating the same meal as well, if you order takeaway like it is, your friend will order a pepperoni pizza and you'll have something else, and somehow that's different to you have something in the middle of the table and you both take from the same dish. Yeah, you're digging in. Yeah, that's why you've got to love a cheese board, you both attack it at the same time. Yeah, that's true though, isn't it? You know, or even just like a big bowl of soup or something, you know, where you share it out, you know, there's something about about that experience of sharing food. It's very, I think it's very, again, it's a very like a primitive thing that like, you know, I guess going back to like when we were cave dwellers or whatever, you know, we would have sort of gathered around a fire or whatever and eaten our food and that would be the thing that sort of brings us together almost. Well, you know, the majority of people these days, they don't see Christmas as a religious celebration. They see it as sort food and having meals together that have all been cooked together that we all share together, and then we have another 8 meals in one day together that we're cooking at our home. It's so— yeah, you're 100% right. I think that's the important thing about Christmas too, isn't it? I mean, whether you're religious or not, I think it is that sense of like, ideally maybe your family or with friends if you're in a situation as opposed to buying stuff, you know, the commercial bit of it. I think better than that is, as you say, that sense of being with people and celebrating together. Celebrating is the wrong word perhaps, but yeah. I think, you know, if everyone's together, it is a cause for celebration, you know. Yes. And so your third one. Okay. This is going to sound even more new agey. Bring it on. I sort of mentioned it earlier a little bit, I think, which is the idea of like hippies in the '60s used to talk about being here now. But it's that sense that the things that tend to make, from a point of view of mental health, certainly my experience of depression, the things that will get you sad or upset will tend to be things that are either in the future that you're fearful of like doing an interview like this, or things in the past. And if you just kind of are in the moment you're in, you can't really be depressed in a way. I mean, you know, you can, but to an extent, every single moment you are just— that's the element you're in. And I must explain this very well, but the more you can just be in that, just that very moment that you're in right now and, and not have the sort of the, the second-guessing what the other person's thinking, or the fear, yeah, stupid, or, or the memory, or the, the regret or resentment about things. But the more you're just in that moment, the less I think you can be unhappy, because you can own— you only have that moment you're in, each, each individual moment. And, um, and hopefully then that's where they kind of— you can enjoy yourself and have fun because you're not encumbered by all these other things that aren't aren't in that moment with you. It does make sense. I heard something once where they said anxiety is about obsessing over the future and depression is about obsessing over the past, whereas if you're just in the now, you know, they can't exist. They do exist, and we know that, but I do like the whole, the thought process around it. We've literally got like a couple of minutes left. We have stormed through, and I know that you said you were slightly apprehensive or a little bit scared, but we've absolutely smashed the last hour, and I've really loved chatting to you. But I do like to hear from my guests about their most favourite good value person in the public eye. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't— when you wrote this, I wasn't really quite sure, and I was thinking, who do I think is kind of— and I guess in the emails here that I'm not really into the royal family very much, but I did think that Prince Harry for a time was— I don't know, he brought attention to mental health, but also kind of normalized it. You know, here was somebody who was extremely well known in his own, I suppose, in their own strange way, kind of like a celebrity, and was— seemed completely open about the fact that he'd had mental health issues. I think had depression, and it just seemed to normalize it quite a lot. I know there are others who've done that as well. That was perhaps just somebody who I'd come across. And something I didn't mention actually, Niall, to you is I can't remember her last name, but she's called Charlie or Charlotte something. And she goes, there's this thing called Charlie's Walks. And so I started following her on Twitter and she's just really, really positive about these kind of walks and how it's helping her. I think get over depression and just feel happier and more positive. I wish I could remember her surname now. It's up on Facebook, I think. Is she based in Torquay? It could be. She's sort of vaguely kind of fairish-haired, I think. Right, yeah. Well, go and check it out, listeners. I must say, I've thoroughly loved chatting to you, Russ. And just a quick reminder to all of our listeners, A New Dark Age 'A Reckoning.' It's published by Groundhog Books, and it was published January 27th, 2021. Go and get it! Find out just how interesting life can get if we don't kind of proceed in a particular way. But also, I've thoroughly loved your open, honest, and frank discussions as well about mental health and mental wellbeing. And thank you so much. And when you, when you write the next book, give us a shout and come back on the station. I'd love to, and hopefully then I'll be a little more awake, not so— in how I respond to you. No, you've been fantastic. Thank you so much, everybody, for listening to Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station.