Get Booked – Bettina Hohnen & Jane Gilmour, Conversations With Children 221121

Hello, this is Get Booked for Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station, played daily at 5 PM and Tuesdays at 4 PM for Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do and what inspires them. We like to open discussions and offer support by the incredible writing community out there. You can come and join us, get involved, and if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Today we will be discussing How to Have Incredible Conversations with Your Child, which was published on the 21st of October. As a parent, you want to know what is going on in your child's life, how school and friendships are going, if they're feeling okay. And as a kid, you want to tell your parents what's going on, but it can be hard to find the words. This new book, How to Have Incredible Conversations with Your Child, is brilliant because it supports you both so you can connect and discover incredible stuff about each other, and we're so incredibly busy that sometimes it's hard to just kind of get your brain working as well. Authors Jane Gilmour and Bettina Honan are clinical psychologists and academics with a specialist interest in neuropsychology. They have over 20 years experience working at Great Ormond Street Hospital and University College London with children, young people, families, and school staff, and delivering practical evidence-based training to parents and professionals. So I think that should be enough. Thank you both for joining us. How are you? It's great to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, really nice to be here, Hazel. Well, I've been storming through this book. It's ridiculously dog-eared, and I myself have children who are— one's 14, about to turn 15. So I'm sure you're fully aware of how interesting conversations are going at the moment. And an 11-year-old that's just started high school, and every time they've seen the book they've kind of gone, "Oh, Mum's gonna want more conversations." And I know it's more focused around, uh, towards the slightly younger children, but there's something in there for absolutely everybody. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to put this book together. Well, I love the fact that you are talking about your children at the ages of 11 and 14, just on the cusp of adolescence and perhaps in the middle of adolescence. So we put this book together for pre-teen children and for kids in primary school age, primarily but not exclusively. So this is a book for kids and parents to use together. Now, one of the things we know developmentally about kids in primary school is that they are actually very keen to be with their parents. They love to do things with their, with their parents as a rule. And so what we want is for families to get into the habit of having these conversations before puberty hits, because that relationship that you will develop as a consequence is actually one of the greatest protective factors throughout adolescence and throughout life. So the book is in two parts. The first part is a book— it's a series of tips and practical pieces of advice about how to engage a young person in communication. It's not just about the words you use, but other tips and practical ideas. The second part is experiential, so that means that you and your child use the book together so that you build the very skills that we talk about in the first part of the book. And we take icons and little tips, we pepper them around these conversation platforms that you use together, designed for the developmental stage that kids are in primary school, so that first of all you learn lots of incredible stuff about each other, but perhaps more importantly you're learning about communication, you're learning how to talk about the the fun stuff, the tough stuff, how to engage each other, how to let each other have space. All these processes are actually gold dust. We know they're great protective factors throughout life, but particularly as, you know, thinking about your kids, Hazel, going into that teenage year phase where you really need that relationship to be trusting and full of open communication, because that's often the only thing that you have as your teenagers go out to explore the world. By themselves largely. Well, I, I, what I've really loved that, um, I mean, we all know how to speak to our children, but sometimes we just need a little bit of help in trying to kind of instigate a conversation and to get the best from them. And what I love about this book is about how you try and put the control with the children as well about what they discuss and how they discuss it. And I've, I've tried that Often with my children, especially, I mean, with the teenager, I've quite often had to say to him, this has to be discussed. How we do it and when we do it is something that you can take control of. If you don't take control of it, then possibly that control is going to be going to come away from you. So you've kind of, you've got to put it in their ballpark. And as they get a bit older, the frustration with children lies within the fact that, you know, they feel like control has been taken away. And I found that hugely helpful and I love that I read so much in your book about how it's shared ownership between parents and children about getting this incredible relationship to just flourish because it's especially during the pandemic as well where people, they had to be on tech even more. We spent so much time saying get off tech, don't do this, and then all of a sudden the pandemic happens and it's the only way that they can communicate with their friends. The school says they've got to be on tech. And half the time they needed to be in their rooms because everybody was on Zoom calls, the parents, the other children and everything. And it's been quite a nightmare, hasn't it, in so many ways. But I just think this book is like a workbook, isn't it, where you're supposed to work through it together. And I love that. Yeah. It went all the way. I mean, well, we did say, the publishers did want to call it a workbook and we threw up our hands in horror and said, you can't call it a workbook because if you wave a workbook at your child, actually, that's the one thing that will make them run. We did say this is a, you know, this is something to use together. It's a book, it's an experience, it's not something that needs to be filled in. And actually, if you don't fill it in, we don't care. If you talk, that's the only thing that matters. So sorry, Bettina, I interrupted you. You were going to say something. Yeah, no, I mean, one of the things that you talk about there, Hazel, I think is one of the most challenging things about being a parent, which is that you— the child arrives and you think, okay, I really got to get my head around how to be a parent now. And then they change, and then they change again, and then they change again. And actually, what you're talking about when you talk about teenagers, you know, we know now that the teenagers are in this very particular time of brain development where their brain is literally on a different setting to a child's brain. So there is something different about what teenagers need. Um, and I think we— what we also when we're aiming this book at younger children and modeling in those early years, look, it needs to be shared. I'm interested in what you think and what you are bringing. And as a parent, there are certain things that I know I have to oversee. So it can't just be on your terms. And I love the way that you said with your son, listen, this is a conversation we need to have. And then you allowed him some choice. I'm really willing to think with you about where and when and how, but here's the boundary, we need to have the conversation. And I think that's such a great way of approaching things. And children are all so different. And that's always the difficulty about writing a book like this. For some kids, they want to sit down, they want to draw. They will do you the most animated, beautiful drawing on the page. For another kid, you know, they'll— they want to do cartwheels while they're talking to you. For another kid, they actually would prefer to be sitting in a car so that they're not making eye contact when they're having conversation. With you. So there has to be some adaptability on our part as a parent about how we have these conversations. This is what I loved about this book as well, is that you, you did explain that everybody is different. Parents are different. They want to speak to their children in completely different ways to other parents sometimes, and, and different children are going to react. And you talked about, um, when there are certain children with maybe special educational needs as well and how to approach it in that way. And I think books like this, they not only help you to come up with ways, slightly different ways to start a conversation, but as parents we're constantly thinking that we're doing it wrong or we're wanting reassurance. And books like this kind of help you realize that actually, yeah, you are doing it the right way and it's good to have that confirmation or to explain that, yeah, it does go wrong, but you know, if things go wrong, One of the main things I say to my children when they make mistakes is, "Brilliant! Imagine if you never made mistakes, there'd be nothing to learn from." It was, you know, it's good to make mistakes. And it's the same with parents as well. If I do something wrong and my kids witness it, I'm like, "Yeah, but own it, you know, and learn from it." And we, you know, we spent quite a lot of time in the book. There's a chapter about, you know, this is a work in progress because A relationship that you have with your child is not a one-way street, it's a two-way street. So both of you have to learn some of these skills as they develop and change. And as Bettina just said, just as you get your head around one developmental stage, your child grows up, which is what we all, you know, that's what we're here for as parents. But you have to think and pivot really about how to apply some of these ideas as your child develops and as their ideas grow. So it is about giving yourself permission to say, yes, this is a skill, we've got to learn it like any other. The neuroscientists all would say about wouldn't they, Bettina? Practice, practice, do it again, practice again, because every time you do it, you will learn something and develop. But also recognizing, and I like that way you've said, look, you know, if you make a mistake, own it. Because if a child grows up in a world where they believe, you know, their parents aren't making mistakes, it's going to be a very scary place because we all make mistakes. Doesn't stop in childhood, believe you me. So owning that and thinking about how that, you know, how did, you know, what was that dilemma? You maybe you made a decision that wasn't the right one. How did that make you feel? Did you feel, you know, embarrassed? Or, you know, talk talk about the tough stuff too. I mean, obviously you have to be careful about what you share as a grown-up because you are the grown-up, but we know that in the terms of the science, actually talking about these difficult emotions, these hard experiences specifically, not just the triumphs, is really important for development and actually is a key part of well-being now and going forward. So that generosity within the kind of guidelines of, you know, appropriate parental boundaries is a really important thing. And we all mess up. Who, you know, I don't know a perfect person, and I don't want to read a book about being perfect. That's not what this is about. This is about, you know, we hope the tone is about being, you know, one of our friends and being, you know, and having an expert position because we know the science, yes, but also recognizing it's relatable, you know, because we need some, you know, some friendly voices as we negotiate childhood relationships. Yeah, I think there is so— there's such a problem really, isn't there, with this parenting and a lot of shaming. And even the language around 'I got it right, I got it wrong.' It's like we're all doing our best as a parent, and we're all going to sometimes make, you know, do something that we come back to and think, actually, that probably wasn't a great way of dealing with it. That's okay. The most important thing, if you look at any of the research in attachment theory, is not whether you had conflict, you are going to have conflict, and not whether you made a mistake, you are going to make a mistake. It's whether you repair it. And that's a really important thing. If you do do something as a parent that you think, oh God, I really, I really lost it with them yesterday. And actually I think she was feeling really sad. Then what you need to do is to come back and to say to your kid, do you know what? I just want to say I'm really sorry that I shouted yesterday. And maybe even explain a little bit, you know, I think I was just really wound up when you said you were whatever it was, and, but I shouldn't have responded like that, and I'm gonna, you know, try better next time. And then you are modeling to them to do the same thing. When they mess up, they will do the same thing to you, and it's such an amazing thing when your child does that. And actually, we know that a healthy relationship is— in healthy relationships, confusions and debates and arguments happen up to 70%, 7-0, 70% of the time. But what makes a relationship healthy is is that repair that Bettina was talking about. And in the book, we actually talk about a darned sock. So in the olden days, when you had a hole in your sock, you would darn it. And the darned bit is much stronger than the rest of the original sock. And relationships that have gone through that capacity to repair and say, oh, do you know what? I messed up there, but here's what I was thinking, and here's how we're going to move forward, are the ones that are able to sustain significant stresses and protect us. So actually, of course, we want to strive for the good stuff, of course we do as a parent, but also recognising that these mistakes are inevitable, that these ruptures are inevitable in any relationship. So recognising that and understanding that is part one, and modelling it in a way that's useful for your child to learn is part two. Well, conflict resolution, I mean, it's such an incredible skill to have. And I actually, I remember speaking to another psychologist for Get Booked, and I was saying to them, I'm just very worried about the effect of the pandemic and how they've been isolated and they've not been allowed to do certain things at certain life stages. And I feel like they're really missing out on this, that, and whatever, and they're not being able to get the education necessarily that I wanted them to get. And she turned around and said the most incredible thing. She said, yes, where they're missing out socially and possibly with their education, they're they're learning how to adapt in the most incredible situation and to do something that nobody's ever had to do before. And everything that they're having to deal with in terms of all being cooped up in a room, they're going to learn some incredible skills where they're so incredibly high on a particular level that eventually it will meet somewhere in the middle and they've learned something new. And she said, you know what, What is taken away with one hand is given with another. And I think, yeah, you learn more from having to deal with adversity. I mean, certainly that's true. We know through lockdown that, you know, many families actually did okay, and usually it was families who were not in economic difficulty or were slightly older and had a job that didn't require going into work face-to-face, actually. But so we know that the— and the mental health of younger care, mothers in particular, was, you know, a vulnerable area. And but there are many, many young people that learn exactly those skills you're discussing. Part of that depended, I think, on how parents were managing that. We know that, you know, for example, the application of divorces went up by 25% during lockdown. So the proximity to another person certainly doesn't necessarily improve our relationship. In fact, we can see that it may, it may have an impact. But absolutely, I love that author's idea that you know, there is always something that we can learn from this. And actually, I think the other thing, we talked about this quite a lot in the podcast that we discuss, we really talk just like this on our podcast about anything and everything. And one of the things that we noticed was that, you know, that tolerating uncertainty, which was what happened during the pandemic, can I have a birthday party, will we be able to go on holiday, all those things are actually very mature skills. And we, you know, perhaps we didn't hope that children would get to learn them as quickly as they did, but they're really important skills to learn. Managing and tolerating anxiety and finding a way through that is absolutely a key skill going forward. And I think one of the hardest things for parents is to find that balance between validating what they're experiencing, which always has to come first. You know, I really get how disappointing it is that you can't have a birthday party this year, and then going on and giving them the sense that it is okay and they will cope. Because what we have to remember is that children really see the world through our eyes. If you remember when your kids were a toddler and you'd be out somewhere and they'd hear a big bang or a noise or something, what do they do? They look at your face instantly. So they're looking at the world through what does mom How's mum reacting to that? How safe am I? Now, it obviously changes as you go through life, but at these times, particularly when everybody is stressed and something extraordinary is happening, they will be doing the same thing, even the teenagers. So if you are able, if you say, oh my God, this is terrible and this is an absolute disaster and I don't know how we're going to get through, they are going to think the same thing. If you're able to say, look, this is really tough and I really get how hard this is for you. And I also think we're going to be okay, then they will think that too. Yes, um, modeling is incredibly important. And again, what you were saying about the birthday parties, there's quite a bit in your book about reframing, um, especially in terms of when you were talking about stress energy. But something that I did in terms of one of my son's birthdays, um, to reframe it, um, he couldn't have a birthday party, but, you know, in our bubble, we were allowed to go out for dinner just as a family. Which always includes their dad, my ex-husband. And my son was sitting there and he's like, wow, this steak is like £30-odd. How am I allowed this? I'm like, yeah, but none of your friends, you can't have a birthday party with your friends. So we can go to an expensive restaurant, still spend the same amount of money. He's going, wow, I'm having like the biggest steak ever. This is incredible. I said, well, this is what would happen if we didn't have to pay for your friends as well. And he was like, "All right, yeah, cool." And I don't have to share the free truffles at the end. But you created certainty within the otherwise uncertain world. We are going to go to dinner, just our bubble, and we are going to do this. And, you know, that holding, putting a pin in that certainty when all the rest is fluid and unknown is great. It's very containing for a kid. I love that. I wish I was at that. Steak, steak, thanks very much, and a truffle afterwards. Yeah, I'm a vegetarian, so it didn't work out great for me. Not that great, no. But there is quite a fantastic section on reframing what is going on. You know, there are certain kids that deal with certain stresses, or they can't deal with certain situations, or, you know, especially, you know, among siblings as well. And I like the way that you talked about, you know, reframing the certain the stress energies that can sometimes occur within certain situations. And my youngest son, he gets quite stressed. He's very sensitive. And if he feels like he's kind of let anybody down, he gets really upset about it. And I've been working with him on kind of reframing that. And if he's got this energy to kind of go out and use that energy to really kick the ball and then make him better for the next match. But there's the reframing is also to do with the language we use as well. And he, I think he turned around and said, "I can't, I'm not very good outfield." I said, "No, you are not as good as you want to be right now." And it's just about teaching our children to use more positive language and not just kind of the negative, it's just, this is the way it is. No, everything can evolve, everything can change, and to use open-ended phrases, I suppose. Yeah, and that, you know, that growth mindset that you're gifting your son is wonderful. And actually, the stress issue is a really important one because it's, I mean, it's one of my favourite pieces of data because it's potentially revolutionary. So stress in short bursts is actually something to embrace. And this is different, it's really important that I get this point across before I talk about it, it's different from perpetual day-after-day stress where somebody's feeling overwhelmed or tearful, because that perpetual stress and feeling overwhelmed is toxic, particularly for young people. That's not a good experience. But these short bursts of stress— I'm just about to go out to the rugby pitch and I'm feeling wound up, you know— now that period of stress is actually extra energy. It's really your body trying to gather together resources to meet an extraordinary challenge. And so we know that simply changing your mindset in that moment changes, A, the way your brain responds to it, and B, increases the likelihood that you can learn from that experience. So it's an extraordinary mindset shift that has huge implications. And actually, we know that individuals who hold that mindset, right, this, you know, this rush of energy before I start an interview, this is good stuff, this is going to— this is rocket power to get me through, actually are less likely to be impacted negatively by stress going through their life. You know, there'll be— there's lots of other sort of physical and mental health parameters that show that that mindset is life-changing. So as a parent, you can do that every time. You know, you're about to go into the school play and your tummy's churning. You could say as a parent, oh no, are you all right? Do you want to go home? 'Or you could say this is energy. Go out and embrace it. It's okay.' And you are, you know, A, you're allowing the child to learn that those cues, that, you know, the tummy churning, the sweaty palms, is energy. And B, you're modeling that this is what I think. And also, as a parent, you can do that too. When you get a parking ticket, I think we use that. When you get a parking ticket, you could go, 'Oh my God, you know,' rant and rave or you can say, "Okay, so I parked illegally. That's annoying. Maybe I shouldn't have done that." You know, you can show by your day-to-day activities different ways of embracing challenges. Parking tickets are a very common occurrence in parenting life. And again, it's about being aware of our emotions and weaknesses and where we get stressed, and that's something that, you know, parents and children can talk about their own experiences to try and, you know, knowledge is power, to be able to identify as well what is our trigger. And not just, I mean, I quite often say to my children, you know that this is going to drive me a little bit potty, but likewise, that's what drives you potty. And, you know, the more that we know about ourselves, the better we can manage it, really. Yeah, absolutely. So there are 4 sections in the book. The one, first one is who are you? The second one is how are you? And actually it's all about emotions. So all of the research inside in neuroscience and all of the rest of it, um, uh, is showing that our self-awareness is actually the most important power, kind of superpower we can have in life. Knowing our own emotional experience, knowing when this happens in my body, or this is the emotion that I'm experiencing, and then knowing what you're driven to do when you have that emotion. So different emotions cause us to do different things. If we're feeling anxious, we tend to want to avoid it because we want to avoid the an— and we want to avoid the feeling of anxiety. If we're feeling sad, we want to just hide away. If we're feeling angry, we want to change something. And so there's a difference between an emotion and a behavior. And teaching your children that is the most incredible superpower that you can give them in life. Because as you say, then they know, they can understand what's going on for them, and they can make a choice about their behavior. Now, they may still choose to behave in a way that they're not proud of later, but they probably won't over time. Once they have an awareness of what's going on, they can go, actually, I was feeling really angry this morning, and that's why I shouted at you, and I'm really going to try and do something different with my anger. And that naming of the emotion is so powerful because it's extraordinary, actually. It was a in a data set that Bettina found, I think, that some adults struggle to name more than 3 or 4 emotions. And so actually learning and discussing and labelling emotions has 2 very powerful effects. First, it allows that emotional literacy to develop. So I'm feeling anxious, or am I feeling nervous, or am I feeling excited? You know, those are quite nuanced for younger children, and in fact, you know, for some adults too. But recognizing that is one thing, but we also know that in times of really high emotion, one of the most powerful things we can do— this is a technique that Matthew Lieberman's lab described— that once you name the emotion, it can really allow the emotion to settle. So you can say it to yourself, "I think I'm feeling angry," and that will allow your emotional state to settle. But you can also say that to your child. "I can see you're feeling angry," and that has an effect too. So it both has an effect in the here and now and might help the emotion settle more quickly, but it also is starting to allow the child to link the feeling that they have, the physical experience, with a label. And that is the start of emotional well-being for a lifetime. So it's a really important skill and that how am I, that, that kind of capacity to think about the rainbow of emotions, the good, the bad, and the ugly, is one of the key parts to a good healthy relationship. I do like, there's quite a few key points as well in this book, and it states that emotional health is wealth. On average, a warm relationship with your parent in childhood will result in £60,000 per annum more than those who had a cold parental relationship. Knowledge is money is power. Well, there is a caveat to that. That is true, and it's from a really extraordinary study. Is it Yale, Bettina? I've forgotten. I think it's Yale. It's a lifelong study looking at men from birth, and they're now very old men. And at the peak of their earning power, those that had a warm relationship at home had a significantly higher earning capacity But the capacity for relationship building really does have a powerful effect whichever way you look at it. Higher earning potential, yes. Better school attainment, greater physical health, greater mental health, lower rates of dementia, lower rates of cardiovascular disease, you name it. So actually, this is the greatest gift you can give your child. You know, forget about being fluent at French, that's number 2. Number 1 is can you form a healthy, lasting, meaningful relationship, and that is all about the capacity to communicate. And this, you know, this book is part of that, but, you know, the parenting experience, the day-to-day bits, the little, you know, as you lay the table, talk about thoughts and feelings, as you cross the road, think about how you, you know, how your tummy feels and what that emotion is. That is the gold dust. That's the way that you send your child off for a trajectory of successful lifelong living. Well, emotional intelligence, it can be used in so many different areas of our life, not just to kind of benefit our family life, but our friends and work as well, you know. Um, people would much rather be in a positive work environment where, you know, their colleagues and their bosses understand them and actually treat them with respect, and they feel more comfortable. Um, but yeah, do you know what, there was something As parents, we love to-do lists, don't we? And currently on the top of my to-do list, just before Bettina, when you were talking about the different sections in terms of children figuring out who they are, the top of my to-do list at the moment is to ask my children, how do your friends see you? How do you think your friends see you? And that's— I read that part and I was like, I've never asked my friend, my children this. Ah, it's such a— yeah, that one, there's a great a kind of conversation here. So just to say that in the book, with each conversation is a fabulous drawing that was actually done by Jane's husband Douglas Broadley. He's really a genius man, and we had a lot of fun drawing the conversations with him. But I'm just trying to look up— what's it called, Jane? That one, that conversation? This is me. This is me, yeah. So it's a really wonderful conversation in the 'Who are you?' section. And just, it's kind of a picture of somebody on a stage and then you have all the friends and teachers and family and everybody and how they see you and they will all see you slightly differently. I think it's such a great idea, Hazel, to really get underneath. I mean, it's not only for you to understand them, but but it's also for them to understand themselves, to really get them thinking in that way. I mean, one of the things, one of the great phrases that we have nicked, we have nicked some phrases. Oh, we're very, very hard-dwelled filmmakers, aren't we? We always do credit, I have to say. We do credit. But we do nick a lot. It's from Dan Siegel, who's an American neuroscientist, and he says that conversation is a sorting space. And it really is. If you think of it like a space where both you— I mean, we do it with our friends, don't we, all the time? You go to a coffee shop and you say something and you just speak and speak and speak, and then you come away thinking, 'Oh, now I feel like I've sorted that out in my mind a little bit.' So that's what you're offering your child with these conversations, is a place for them to sort out what they think So yeah, I love that idea. Top of your list. Yeah, it really is. And one of the reasons that we really liked the idea of using— we do use a lot of visual and, you know, sort of analogies because, partly because this is perfect for the stage of development that the children are at, and they use visual analogy, but you don't need as much memory if you've got something written in front of you. And so in that conversation that Bettina was describing, one of the things that we think is really interesting for a child to to consider, and it's probably the first time that some of the younger children will have considered, that the way they feel inside might not be the way that they are considered by friends and family or by friends— by, sorry, by family or by friends. And actually, as we develop and as we grow, you know, it might be that I feel inside that I am, you know, I'm a very shy person, but my classmates see me as the clown. You know, "Mm, that's interesting." Just sit with that. You could sit with that for years. That's nothing to be necessarily fixed or discussed, but just to notice. And actually, as we grow older, we hope that in time the way we feel inside and the way others see us is more integrated. But that is a really long work in progress, and many, many very old adults have still not sort of got to the stage where they're kind of recognizing and understanding and integrating those parts. Arts. But we use that visual idea of somebody being on the stage, you know, this is me, this is how I feel inside, I can tell you how I feel, but how does somebody looking at me recognize me? And that's quite head-spinning, it's a huge question that could keep us going for years, and it's a huge question. And that's one of the things that we say about in the book is come back and do these questions, these conversations at a different time, next term, next year, and if you bought the book you can sort of download these conversations as often as you like, because actually re-coming back to some of these complex questions when things have moved on a little, when you've understood each other a little, there's a new experience, will be so enriching. And you can stop and point and say, "Oh gosh, that was a difficult time, wasn't it? And look, we got through that." Or, "Look, I've got a new way of managing a tricky thing," or, "I've got a new thing that I say when I feel shy." 'Isn't that interesting? Oh look, it's different from last time.' And that developmental process is part— is your relationship developing and their emotional literacy developing in front of your very eyes. So it's a real, you know, this is complex. This is not a one-hit, you do it and then it's done. This is a slow burn, but it's well worth the wait. Well, it's harnessing, you know, the skill to be introspective as well. Mm-hmm. Which is just so important. One of the things that strikes me as we are talking that can be really hard about this, doing this when you are the parent of a child, is if you hear something that is hard to hear, you want to fix it. You want to change it. Let's say you sat down with your child and you did this conversation and they said to you, I think my friends think I'm really bossy. You might, as a parent, say, come in and kind of go, no, no, no, no, that's not true. Or they think I'm really ugly. No, no, no, you're not, you're beautiful. Now it sounds like what we're doing there is very positive, but actually what the research is showing, and one of the things about this thing of validation, it's, is that we have to accept that is what they think first of all. Now you can then go on and say, gosh, that's interesting that you 'You perceive others to think that you are not beautiful.' Later you can say, 'For me, you are the most beautiful person in the world.' That's okay. But that's different from stopping them from saying what they really believe. So what we know is that actually when you try to stop somebody or tell somebody that their emotional experience is not true, it actually has an amplitude effect. It makes it, it makes us feel it it more significantly. And if we actually accept the emotion, we can be curious about it, we can be surprised. Gosh, I really didn't know that you felt like that. But we allow them to have that space to process it themselves. And then they might go, yeah, actually, maybe that's not true. Maybe, maybe, you know, it's something slightly different. So they might kind of get there themselves. And that's showing— sorry, I was going to say, that's showing that empathy It's again, you know, an example of something we've nicked but credited. Brené Brown is a brilliant writer and she talks about the pit, and we talk about getting in the pit. So if your child says something that's very hard to hear, you can say something that shows empathy and say, "I'm really sorry," or "That sounds," you know, something that allows them to know that you are connected. And that connection in that moment is extremely important. And it should, if you can, allow that to be your first response. So, you know, as Bettina was saying, we don't, you know, particularly if we, you know, our kids when they were tiny, we fixed it, we picked them up, we, you know, dusted them down, we problem-solved, perhaps without having the time to share that moment. And as they get a little bit older, I mean, obviously in infancy as well where it's appropriate, but as they get older, there's more of that space to sit with it, as they say. And having that capacity to sit with a difficult emotion is very powerful, it's very bonding. It's not the same as agreeing. So listening is not the same as agreeing. So if your child says, "I feel that I'm really, you know, the kids at school say I'm really ugly," if you listen to that, you're not saying implicitly, "I think that's true." You can respond with empathy, and yes, they're and then come back and have a think about it, and maybe when the emotion has settled, have a larger conversation, but allow that emotion to exist because we know that allowing— we don't want to erase difficult emotions. As a parent, our instinct might be to want to make things better, but the first step into making things better is allowing that difficult emotion to exist. Don't erase it, don't shut it down, allow it. And show empathy. And that is a really important first step. What I want to say— says to you— sorry, I was just going to say, if your child says to you, I don't want to do your— my homework, what we might be tempted to say is, well, you have to do it. But what you— what's a much better way of dealing with it is saying, I get that you don't feel like it now, you've had a long day at school. And then you say, okay, let me think about how I can help you get down to it. So you're not changing the boundary, you're not saying you don't have to, but you're allowing them to not want to. Oh, it's so clever. I definitely don't stand a chance. Manipulation is part of that. No, no, not manipulation. No, no, it's not manipulation. It's allowing them that opportunity and saying it's both and. Yes, this is rubbish, and yes, because we have to do it. It's not mutually exclusive. And so it is so important and it's so validating and will probably allow your child to take a step forward towards knuckling down to the homework because they won't feel that they have to sort of protest and say this is rubbish because they'll feel heard. And actually, as a coming back to that Matthew Lieberman technique about naming something, it also allows that brain to settle so that the thinking parts of the brain can engage a little bit more. So it's not manipulation, it's toleration of the bad stuff and holding a boundary, you know, in a very elegant way, may I say, Bettina. I just want to point out to our listeners that might be saying, "Oh, this sounds incredibly scary that I might cause more damage by starting these conversations in the way that I react." But what I want to point out to the listeners is that actually You break down each section and each style of conversation with when to actually just shush, when to listen, the kind of examples of ways to respond to those kind of topics. So you, you know, you're holding the reader's hand all the way through the book. And also, being psychologists, you have been there. You know what is the most healthiest way predominantly to to respond or to not respond. And I like it how sometimes, you know, there's certain sections say, "No, you need to be quiet for this bit." Yeah, shush. I know when we were writing the book, we said, you know, the shush icon might seem counterintuitive. So there's a little icon that's got a finger on the lips. Now, this is my personal challenge because I am a talker, but I know that there are times when I just have to literally put a finger on my lips so that it allows the young person space to talk it through. And sometimes what we know is that young people, first of all, as they say out loud, they hear it in a different way— that sorting space idea. They can hear their dilemmas and their challenges, but sometimes they talk themselves around to a really nice resolution, or a really clear thought-through idea, or a solution, or just an understanding of where they are. And that is happening right in front of you. You're giving them that safe sorting space, but that can only happen really in the presence of a safe person. So just being in the room, offering that space, offering that support silently and implicitly is so powerful. So don't underestimate this, you know, this conversation might be about me being there and just listening. I've got a good example of that actually. I have a 23-year-old um, just to say you can do this. This is important for life and not only for a parent-child relationship. But I have a 23-year-old, and we were in the car not so long ago, and, you know, she's, she's, um, a normal human being. She has her ups and downs, but pretty much she's, she's doing okay. And I looked around, we were talking about something, and suddenly she had tears pouring down her eyes. And I'm like, Ooh, what's going on here? And I really had to talk myself down and just remind myself everything we'd written in the book. And I listened and she talked, and I listened and she talked, and I literally just kind of validated. And I said, wow, that must be hard. I might have said a little bit of, you know, what happened here, and asked a few more questions. And then we got out of the car, and she, she gave me a hug, and she said, thanks, Mom. I thought, I didn't do anything. And actually, that's what you need sometimes. I just gave her the space, and I, and I held her emotion, and she was okay. But I didn't feel like I'd done anything great. I tell you, it often doesn't feel like that at the end. It's, it's such a skill to be able to be quiet, to, or to just listen sometimes. And this is something I really struggle with. And sometimes when a friend is telling me about something that's happening, I want to go, "Oh, but you're fantastic," and, "Oh, this has happened to me before, and I know how you're feeling," to kind of give some sort of congruence. And sometimes you just need to be quiet, and it's the most incredible skill to have if you can hone it in. It really is. It's very— but it's so powerful. And in regards to how I said that you kind of hold hold the reader's hand through the book as well. To some people who possibly look at some of the workbook-esque sections, you do have examples in the back as well, because sometimes a child might take one look at the creative side and go, 'I have no idea where to even start.' And, you know, if they can do it without looking at the examples, great, but there are some beautiful examples in the back of, you know, what is kind available, and it's just to make sure that, you know, if the listeners are suddenly going, "Oh, my child would hate this, they wouldn't know where to start," there are so many different parts of the book that can be useful, but there are examples and a lot of hand-holding, which, you know— Well, I'm so glad you say there's hand-holding because that's really— we wanted to be in the room with parents because we know that parents want to do the right thing. They are so motivated to do the right thing, and often we get asked these questions like, 'What do you do?' and 'Now how would you?' you know, 'Then what?' and so we hoped that that was the sense, so I'm really pleased to hear you say that. I think the thing is, if you have a child who's not keen on drawing, don't draw. You know, this is not about filling in a worksheet, this is about starting a conversation. You can also— we've got this sort of section called 'pick and mix' where we say to the kids, right, you host the questions and the ideas and the conversation, and let your parents talk. And it's a revelation to most kids to see that their parents have an emotional life. It is extraordinary. So it's really interesting for them to start that, and you can model all the things, and you can share, you know, your best day, or, you know, memory frame game is one of my favourites. You, one of 'What's one of your favourite memories?' It's a brilliant distraction technique for worriers, but it's such fun. And I think when I do that clinically in the clinic, almost invariably when I ask the question, 'What's your favourite memory?' or parents will say, 'Wow, I never knew that. I just wouldn't have guessed that particular scenario.' And so there's lots of things. This is not necessarily about sort of squeezing out information, although sometimes as a parent we want to to get, get sort of inside our child's inner world a little bit more. This is more about sharing the experience. And so if you have a kid who runs a mile when you pick up a pen, maybe they've had difficult experiences with homework, or, you know, the idea of doing a workbook is abhorrent. We agree, this is not a workbook. But what you might do is say, okay, let's have a look at this, and we don't have to write anything down, or I'll do the writing if you you want to write it down, or you can ask me. We'll do under the table, we'll do outside. Don't do this where the homework happens if you have a kid who's had difficult experiences, because all that their brain will do is go, "Uh-oh, it's homework. Ah, I don't want to do this," and their brain will be in a different state because this is not about that. This is fun. Get the parent who doesn't normally talk about emotions to do it. Do it in the park, you know, talk to the dog, get the teddy there and do it. You know, you can have fun with this because this is this is just about ideas, and actually the last page of the book is a blank sheet of paper. The greatest compliment that you could pay us is that you take this idea and you use it in the way that makes sense to your family. You don't have to do these conversations. These are some ideas we know from the evidence base that are useful, but you can take this and use it in any way you like. Make models, do it LEGO way. You don't have to do it with a paper and pen, but we also know that that's very often helpful with kids. And in fact, one of the conversations is called Mood Mountain. So it's very simple but really effective. The top of the mountain is the best you've ever felt, and down below, the pit of the— the bottom of the mountain is the pit— is the worst you've ever felt. Show me how you feel today, normally, what would have to happen to get you, you know, up the mountain, and so on. You don't need a paper and pen. Use a bit of spaghetti during, you know, tea time. Draw on the condensation on the car window. Do it anywhere and everywhere. Whatever suits you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because this is about engaging conversation. This is not about completing worksheets. So I think we're all prone as parents to thinking, uh, everyone else is doing this better than me, or I haven't done this right, or this hasn't been good. One of the other things we've got at the end of every conversation, we say it's very important that you end positively. If the conversation lasted for 2 minutes only and they told you one tiny thing, it's a success. And we've even suggested that maybe you have a little ritual together about how you end the conversation. And then for other kids, you know, it may be that it's a long time and they drew something beautiful, but don't get into this idea that that was a bad conversation or that wasn't long enough, or other people are more more creative than me, or, you know, we do all get prone to this kind of thinking, don't we? And actually, just turn around and just say, you know what, I really enjoyed that. I think we covered quite a bit of ground. It makes me feel good about myself. Let's go celebrate. Should we go get a chocolate bar? You know? Yeah, exactly. And it's actually, it's such a great thing. And if you said, you know what, do you want to, should we have a conversation if it feels like the right thing? And it doesn't have to be formal. You can actually have the ideas in your head and just have the conversation. But if your child said, you know what, now is not the time, or I don't want to, and uses words rather than acting that out, I would, you know, we talk about using a fist bump, like boom, you've just had an incredible conversation. I would fist bump the child that said, you know what, I don't want to talk now, because they're A, using their words, not acting them out, and B, they're showing emotional regulation. They're saying, I don't, it doesn't, you know, it's not right for me right now. And look, that can't be a, you you know, that perpetual thing that you do long-term, but what you want to do is find those chinks of light and say, "Wow, I'm so glad you told me." Give me a fist bump. That was an incredible conversation because we had that exchange, you told me how you felt, and I can say, "Right, we'll do it another time, that's great." So, you know, that's a perfect example of how the process of these conversations is in some ways much more valuable than even the content, although the content is wonderful too. Do you know what? They'll never admit it, but kids do love it when we actually want to put in the work with us and want to spend time. As much as they'll go, "Oh, not again," it's a lot better than us not wanting to. And, you know, it's— that's just the joy of parenting, trying to navigate what they're saying and what they actually mean. Now, I know that in a couple of minutes, Jane, you need to scoot off, and Luckily I can still— I've got so much I still want to ask you about. I want to put something to you, to both of you, just before you have to nip off. Now there was a section in the book about asking the children what their best kind of day would be, and I know for a fact if I said that to either of my children, they would say, 'Being allowed on tech and you stop asking us to help you around the house.' 100%, that would be their answer. 'How am I supposed to tackle that?' Well, I think, I mean, the point of this is that it's fun and it's a good ice— it's some ways what you call an icebreaker in one of these dreadful corporate things. That actually I would allow that to happen. So this is not about what you think their best day would be, but what we have done in that conversation, if we said, 'Right, you open your eyes and...' So literally, it's the first thing you do, grab your tick, and it might be that, and it might be that "Then, you know, what do you eat? Where do you go? You know, you can be anywhere." Ask those questions and it might well be that even though in theory I could fly on a helicopter and go to, you know, Disneyland or whatever, even if that's, you know, even if that's offered and they still say, "Yeah, I want to do tech all day and you don't ask me anything to do." This is a perfect example of validation. So this is not about 'What's going to happen to your world? Are you ever going to get a job? Why are you on your tech all day?' This is not the place to have that worry. This is a place to allow your kid to go, 'Oh, I can say that,' and you go, 'Wow, that's your best take. Good.' That's validation, and it's fun. Okay, so kids and parents sometimes lose the option or lose the kind of habit of having fun together. You go, 'Wow, and so which games you play?' Get inside that because that's and that's a way to connect with them. You know, what's the game and could I play it? And, you know, what's your highest score? And then who would you invite? And who's the best gamer? So you might have to get alongside that. This is not about— I've tried that. My kids cheat. They don't tell me exactly how to use the controls so that they win. But what I'm saying is, you know, this is a different thing from, you know, laying boundaries about the correct time to have tech. This is about saying, I'm asking you this question. Never ask a question unless you're prepared to hear the answer. So you're asking the question, what's your best day? And if it really is, that's interesting for you to think about. It's not necessarily for you to sort of correct or tell off, just say, tell me more. So from 11 to 12, we're doing that, and which game are we doing now? Wow. And then do you take it to bed? And, you know, just see what would happen in their perfect day, allow that validation. And that is a different conversation from, here's a time that tech is allowed, here are the boundaries, said with warmth and love, but this is what we're allowing. And also what you also might find is that when they say that, then they think again. So, you know, if there's something that is denied, and for this generation of kids, they they always want more than they're getting when it comes to screens. But they might say that first of all, and then they might think about it. And they might go, actually, I really love something very different. And actually, we know that parents are the most important person in a child's life. And we know that having connection and strong relationships with parents is what kids want. They're not going to tell you that necessarily, but we know that that's important to them. So it's also about not just what they say in the conversation, but it gets them thinking in a different way about things. And shock them when you say that you will allow it. Jane, I know you— But this is fun, this is fantasy. And what you might find is you say, right, go for it. So it really— and so then you put your feet on the floor and you pick up your game. You might find that that is a very good example of them talking themselves round and thinking, how would I really— I could do anything. 'Yeah, I really, really do tech all day.' And you might find that they, you know, start to talk themselves around precisely because in that fun kind of fantasy world, that day, that actually they might add some other things in. So it might be an opportunity, actually a leverage, to talk about other stuff. But the point here is not to censor that, because that's about just connection. That's all that sort of conversation is about. It's not about aims and ideals, it's about what's your best day. Now, we've just got under 5 minutes left. I knew that we would race through today. Jane, do you need to run off? I'm going to go now, thank you so much Hazel. We could talk all day. This is our problem, isn't it, between us? So anytime, we would love to, we'd love to come back. Thank you so much for having us and me, and I'm so delighted that you've described the book in the way that we hoped it would be experienced, and I hope it helps helps lots of families. I'm sure it will. Thank you so much, and I'll get some links up on socials. Thank you, Jane. Now, Bettina, there's something that I really like to ask all my guests on Get Booked. And now, the, the first thing is, because social media is absolutely everywhere, and there's some, there's, there's some fantastic elements to social media as well as the negatives. Now, is there anybody out there, not even necessarily on social media, but do out there in the public eye that you think is a positive influence. They're just somebody that enriches your experience. Yeah. Do you, one person who I just think is fabulous, who's written the most brilliant book is Philippa Perry. Oh, okay. Yeah. She's actually married to Grayson Perry, who's the artist. And they've been on television, I think over lockdown as well. But she wrote a book, which is something called The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. It, it's, um, it's very readable, it's very approachable. And one of the things that I think it talks about that I think is so important that maybe we haven't touched upon today that much, but it's just that when we arrive at parenting, we come to parenting having had an experience of being parented ourselves, which has been imperfect because it always is. Um, but we have learned how to do that at an unconscious level. And we bring that to our current family with our children. Now, this is not about blaming parents. This is not about saying anyone did anything wrong, but actually being prepared to reflect as a parent on what bits are going well for me and what bits aren't going well for me. What bits do I find really challenging with my children? What bits don't I? Is about the most valuable thing I think you can do as a parent. And she really talks about that and gets into that. I mean, she talks about many things as well. Um, yeah, I've heard a lot about that book. It is— oh, have you? It's on my wish list as well. Yeah. Um, she's really good. Oh, I love that. I mean, there's quite a lot of, um, books that you recommend for further reading as well in the back of the book. And, uh, the other question that I like— I'm gonna have to race through these because we've got— yeah, a couple of minutes left. And I always ask for your What are your 3 favorite tips on good mental health or good mental well-being? Yeah, talk about emotions. Yeah. With your kids, but with yourself as well, with your friends. They are there and they're drivers of our behavior. We need to understand them. I think as a parent, it would be what I was just saying. Reflect non-judgmentally on what's going on for you and be prepared to think, actually, how can I change and how does my How does my past have an impact on my, my present and my behavior? And the third thing, I mean, it has to be just make space for conversations. Conversations are the building block of relationships, and relationships are the most important factor in our well-being and health for life. So in a nutshell, yeah, I think that that is so important that they're fantastic. I did, I recently went on holiday the first time in 2 years. Years. And it wasn't— yes, I wanted the sunshine, yes, I wanted the food and whatnot, but the main thing was, was to get my children away from their usual space. Yes. And to be in the same room and to have the opportunity to just have proper conversations that don't revolve around doing your homework, tidying your room. And do you know what, it— I was saying to a friend this morning, I could have paid twice the amount for the holiday and it still would have been worth it for the amount of conversations that we had, and I just feel so much more in touch with what's going on. I must say, thank you so much, Bettina, for chatting to us here at Forget Booked. And just everybody go out and get How to Have Incredible Conversations with Your Child. It's on Amazon, get it delivered. And obviously it's one of those ones that you need to buy the physical book rather than on Kindle or anything, and to keep on going back to it. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having us. I mean, we did also write a book called The Incredible Teenage Brain, which came out a couple of years ago. So that's also one to look up. It's different to this one, but it kind of is a good one for teenagers as well. But we have a podcast called Incredible Conversation where Jane and I just have these kind of chats. And, you know, on the social media, Incredible Conversation and Incredible Convo. So if they type that into all the various podcasts, platforms people will be able to find. I was— I had it on my to-do list to ask you about that, actually. Okay, okay. Yeah, thank you so much, and thank you everybody for listening to Get Booked. Enjoy the rest of your day.