Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and this is Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station. Here on Get Booked, we love talking to authors about their new releases, going into detail about the topics covered, their inspiration, the mental health and well-being elements, and giving you the extra special insight into a different book and the author each week. We're going to be opening discussions and offering support via the incredible writing community out there. Now, today we have Michelle Morgan, mental health first aider and ambassador, and the author of Own Your Awkward. We are in a mental health crisis that has only worsened over the last year of lockdowns. 12 billion days of productivity are lost worldwide because of the effects of depression and anxiety disorders. And yet the awkwardness that comes from bringing up mental health topics mean that many people still prefer to stay quiet. This new book, Own Your Awkward, is a guide to understanding those awkward moments and reframing them as something powerful, joyful even. Michelle Morgan builds on her years of professional experience leading her first business, Liberty, as well as drawing on her personal journey of learning to cope with burnout. Anxiety, depression, and a near-death moment that changed her outlook and purpose in life. Let's kick off on why we need to own our awkward. I'm already convinced we're going to have a very, very in-depth conversation today. Michelle, hi, how are you? I am very well, thanks, Hazel. Now, uh, as I said slightly off air, I've got a list of so many things I want to bring up, and I kind of feel like I'm I'm gonna have to just kind of bash, bash, bash, get through this because there's just, I love the book. It really helped me 'cause I've gone through certain periods in my life as well where I've worried about how much I should actually broach with my friends, with family, with work. And I think this book covers such a wide variety of areas while giving people a little bit of help and advice, hints and tips of how to just get started. 'Cause that's the main thing, isn't it? Getting started. And breaking down these barriers. If you can tell our listeners a little bit about why you decided to write this book, and we'll, we'll start from there. Absolutely. Well, I'm really looking forward to, to the conversation. And, um, the book came out of my own experience of poor mental health and then eventually a diagnosed mental illness. In that I burnt out. And, and then what followed was a period of clinical depression and anxiety. And it happened back in 2016. It was sort of 2016 into 2017. And 2016 for me had just been one of those years, you know, we all have them. And in many ways, my story isn't extraordinary. It, it happens to so many people. And in that year, I I just had an extraordinary amount of things that were adding to my kind of my stress levels, really. And not all bad. They were just, there was a lot going on. I was leading my business Liberty through a social investment round. So we were raising a couple of million to help grow the business and help grow our social impact. 2016 was the year of new prime ministers in the UK and new presidents. In the States, and there was a lot of turmoil and a lot of uncertainty and unpredictability, and that was definitely taking its toll on our business and kind of putting a pressure on that fundraise. It wasn't all bad, again, I was enjoying learning something new, but there were certainly pressures there. I had a trip, a business trip to Tunisia to speak to a bunch of people at a conference and had a really traumatic experience on the plane on the way out where an asylum seeker was being deported from the country and tried to escape. And there were lots of security people, and this was all before we'd taken off and was just opposite me on the plane. So there were lots of things that were going on. I was having some some challenges with people in my life, and that was very complicated. And, and it was, it was very really making me very sad and also anxious. And I guess throughout the whole of that year, my stress levels had been building. And, you know, the thing was I wasn't stopping. I wasn't looking after myself. I was not talking about it. I wasn't asking for help. In fact, I was working more, I was working harder, and really ignoring a lot of the signs and symptoms that were emerging. And I'd kind of put my leadership cloak on every day and get into work and get through the day and be a leader of a business. But when I got home in the privacy of my home, in the privacy of the relationship with my husband, after my daughter had gone to bed, I would cry and cry and cry. And often drink a bottle of wine to help me stop working. And I guess the term is self-medicate. Yeah. And in the December, I, we were moving out of our house. We were having some renovations done, which was just another stressful thing happening in our lives. And as the guys packed up our house so that we could move out for a few months, I just found myself sitting at the bottom of the stairs. Just having hit a wall, having completely burnt out and feeling like I couldn't go on, which was, you know, really tough and confusing. And, and I felt like a real failure, and I had a lot of shame around that feeling. But it's quite hard, isn't it? Because if you think about it, you're somebody that's very like— you're a go-getter. You set up a business, it was incredibly successful, it's go, go, go. Then all of a sudden, when you suddenly feel like you, you can't cope, it's like, well, this isn't me. Who, who am I then? Absolutely. Uh, but I did need to start talking about it because at that moment I really felt like I couldn't go into my office ever again. So that was clearly a problem. So I did need to start talking to some of the people around me, mostly the board And it was agreed that I would step out of the business. I also had a lot of physical issues happening during that year, which meant that, um, around that time I finally got a diagnosis and needed to have a hysterectomy. So I was also facing the loss of my fertility, quite a big operation. So it was decided I'd just take a little bit of time out of the business to primarily address the physical issues because it was much easier for us all to talk about the physical issues that I was experience in. But it was also to create a bit of space to support my mental health as well, even though we weren't really using that language. And as I stepped out of the business, you know, I'm quite an open and transparent person, and, and I wanted to be as, as honest with the people in my business as, as was, was appropriate, I guess. And Some feedback that I got as I drafted a note to the business was, "It's a bit awkward when you talk about your mental health, Michelle," which was crushing and silencing. And of course I did stop talking about my mental health, um, which made things even worse. And yeah, so I stopped talking about it, about how I was feeling for certainly weeks. But, you know, maybe a month or so. But I would describe myself as a pretty resilient person, actually. And I knew that something was wrong. And so I looked for solutions that I could do in the privacy of my home, really in the privacy of my bedroom. I was finding it very hard to get out of my pajamas even. And certainly I was finding it almost impossible to leave the house. But I found two things that initially were certainly helpful. The first was downloading the Calm app, which is a mindfulness app. Yeah. And then the second was buying a book written by the comedian Ruby Wax, and it's called Frazzled. I love that book. I have read it. Yeah, and I think its full name is A Mindfulness Guide for the Frazzled. And she talks about her own story, her own experience of mental ill health, and also techniques that she has learned through mindfulness. And she's learned about it in quite an in-depth way. And it was reading a few pages where Ruby describes falling into depression, an episode of depression. And I read those pages with tears rolling down my cheeks. Thinking, hold on a sec, this is how I feel, but she's calling it depression. What? And suddenly I realized that I had the language and the words to describe how I was feeling. And it was that moment, and I call them that's me moments, where you connect with someone else's story and you immediately feel less alone. And maybe you've got the words and the language. And that for me led to me actually getting out of my pajamas, getting out of the front door, and getting into the GP and getting that diagnosis of clinical depression and anxiety and having a conversation, the first conversation about how to treat that and start on that journey to recovery. I guess The big message is recovery is the most likely outcome when you experience poor mental health. So lots of things happened after that, uh, which I'm sure we're gonna discuss, but that was kind of what happened to me. Um, and certainly led a couple of years later, but to me, for, to me writing the book. What I must say is, I mean, I remember reading the part in your, in your book when your work colleague said, you know, it's quite awkward. And sometimes it's not necessarily about you, it's about them. Because I remember when I was really suffering, and the, the issue I had was I'm already not feeling great, and if I tell people I'm not feeling great, will people think it's kind of contagious, or it will open something up? Within them, which will mean I'll be more isolated. Because, you know, quite often when somebody behaves towards you negatively, it's something to do with their own issue. And there is the part of the awkwardness, in my opinion, is people are worried that you're gonna, you know, if people engage with somebody else's anxiety and depression, try and help them, it might open a floodgate that you're too scared to open. Absolutely. You're, you're so right. And the thing with mental health and feeling uncomfortable talking about it is that there's all sorts of things going on in that moment, that moment when I'm either going to ask you how your mental health is or tell you how mine is. I might be wanting to offer you help. I might be wanting to ask for help. And the truth is, that moment before I even start speaking, that's when the awkwardness is happening for all different kinds of reasons. And it's easier to avoid the conversation than have it. And when I started writing the book, it was also, it was actually called originally, It's Not Awkward! Exclamation mark, capital letters, slightly shouty. Where, you know, I was saying on the other side of that terrible time, but where I was talking about it quite a lot. And I, you know, I was doing public speaking, and so I was talking about my mental health regularly. And when you talk about it regularly, even if you're talking about a difficult time, you know, it does, it does become easier, certainly. So I'd got to this stage in my head where I was thinking no one should ever feel awkward talking about their mental health. It just shouldn't be a thing. And look, I've learned that by talking about it, I can build richer and deeper and more meaningful relationships with people as a result. And it's not awkward. That's what I wanted to shout. That's what I wanted the book to be about. And then when I started writing it, kind of something happened because when you're writing a book, you start to go quite deep on the topic. And I, I had this kind of moment when I realized it is awkward. It's still awkward for me. It's still awkward, Hazel, in this conversation where, you know, I'm about to really open up to you and your listeners about my mental ill health. So I wanted to explore why is it awkward. And so that was a big moment of revelation in a way, uh, but one that I hope actually has turned into something that can help more people have a conversation about mental health. When you understand why it's awkward, you can become aware of that. And if you've got a technique, you can do something about it and then push on through and have the conversation. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? And it's understanding why it's awkward and then possibly getting your head round who might be a good person to speak to and who might not, and understanding why they may not be comfortable with it. I mean, whatever's going on, I mean, I remember my dad dying at the same time that I was getting divorced, and I was sinking quite into depression. I pretty much ignored my dad's death because I didn't have the time or the emotional capacity to let it sink in. We're all in different stages of resilience, so You know, when people react to us in a particular way, as I said before, it's not always about us, and it's just trying to understand that, to not always take things personally. And we just— but we need to remember that the more we ignore, the bigger the ticking time bomb. I mean, I'm quite lucky. When I had my issues, I decided that I had to start being more honest with people, and I'll be honest, the more awkward the better in terms of my friends now, because, yeah, um, I prefer people who have a little bit of something— I'm going to use the term wrong with them, but that's not what I mean— because it just means that it's a bit real and it makes you feel comfortable. If you have this perfect friend who always looks perfect, life is perfect, or they're always pretending that life is perfect, then you've got nowhere to go. You have Nothing in common, nowhere where you can just turn around and say, you know, oh, this happened. Yeah, do you know what, I get it completely. Do you know, I did this the other day, I feel a bit daft. I mean, all of my friends, sometimes we sit in a pub and we just think, God, we're a right box of nut jobs. And we're just like, but you know what, we can talk about anything with each other and we love it. We can have a bit of a laugh about it as well, because the more you talk about it the easier it is. And it— I know it's such an old saying, you know, problem shared is a problem halved, but sometimes just being able to talk about it, it's keeping it up in your head that can sometimes send you into an absolute spiral of anxiety and depression because you're not getting those thoughts out, you're not ordering them, you know. You don't— there's a lot about what you say in the book about sometimes when someone's telling you about an issue, you don't have to talk, you don't have— you just have to actively listen. And it's just feeling like someone's listening to you. Absolutely. Well, I, I think, you know, there is a little bit of wonkiness to us all, and we will all experience the ups and downs of life. We all have mental health. How's yours today? How will it be this time next year? In the past, you know, you've had, from the sounds of it, some real challenges with your mental health, and I'm, I'm so sorry to hear about those because it sounds really tough. So if I go back to understanding why it feels awkward, and, and this kind of picks up on what you were saying kind of when we started talking about it, the fact is it's our fight, flight, freeze response. So our survival instinct that actually is deep within us. And was at its most active when we were cavewomen and cavemen. And, you know, it's the thing that keeps us safe. It's the thing that keeps us potentially alive. And it ignites when there is danger or a threat or a perceived threat in front of us. And so back in the day, that means that it would help us be alert to the bear and then either run from the bear or hide from the bear or fight the bear. Now I'm not a scientist. I'm not a, um, a, a mental health professional. So that's kind of as far as I might go on, on what is happening to you in that moment. But there, there's kind of a combination of hormones that are also spiking again to give you that, that boost to be able to respond and protect yourself. Take that into the modern day and life has changed so much. It looks very different now. And, but we are still experiencing moments of tension, moments of high stress, moments where we're experiencing what, like, what feels like fear. And that natural survival instinct is igniting. But the thing is, these days is often igniting and then maybe escalating in a way that's actually disproportionate to the actual threat in front of us. Yeah. The threat that we are feeling. And so coming back to your point, you know, what is going on either consciously or subconsciously at that moment, we're thinking, what if I say the wrong thing? What if I make something worse for the person? Maybe if you are wanting to offer someone help, or if you are asking for help, you know, what if the person that you're talking to laughs at you, doesn't believe you, doesn't want to associate with you anymore, wants to, you know, in quote marks, kick you out of the community or tribe that is going on for us in that very deep way. But is that gonna happen? Well, more times than not, it's not going to happen because essentially humans are good. And it still might be awkward, but my view is that it's almost always better to hold that awkward moment, hold the, hold your nerve, own the awkwardness, own your awkward. And when you own your awkward, it helps the other person own theirs. And I can't tell you how many times, Hazel, I've shared my story and someone shares theirs back with me. And it is— it is helpful all around. And, and like you say, when you don't talk about it and you bottle it up, it has nowhere to go. It has no release. And, and also the thing is, our minds are complex and clever, and they will often ignite our imagination or our ability to reflect, but maybe reflect in a negative way or imagine the future in a negative way. And the thing that I always try and remind myself and others is that your thoughts are not facts. Your thoughts are not facts. So if you can talk to someone about those thoughts, how you're feeling, how you're coping,, it might start to, a, release how you're feeling, but also help you start to put some perspective around the situation, but also, you know, help you to get, if you're asking for help, or help someone else to get some help. And that might be professional support. Um, and that will be the first step towards recovery. It's interesting. I should send you a picture of the way your book looks at the moment, the amount of pages that I've kind of folded back left, right, and center. And, you know, one of them was the section where it says, "Your thoughts are not facts," because I did absolutely love that. Now, I'm a huge fan of positive attribution, and in light of what you were saying before about, you know, we're worried about how people are going to react and whether you're going to be ousted, you know, I've written a blog in the past about, you know, it is unlikely that they're going to oust you, but if they do, that means they don't want the best for you. And although it hurts, it's kind of like the trash taking itself out. And I love that phrase. Yeah, if I can, may I steal that? Yeah, of course you can. But I mean, as I said before as well, yeah, I have had my struggles, and at one point it was incredibly scary. I was really low, and I'm sure very similar to your situation. I'm kind of somebody who's always on the go, you know. Um, I like to be busy, you know, balancing so many different plates. But also how horrific it was when I was in the midst of the, the worst part. Looking back now, I wouldn't take it back because what I've understood and being able to appreciate about just, just how hard it is and how to— I feel like I can now understand what people have gone through, and I feel like it's given me a bit more of a wealth of information and what I would have liked to have heard, heard, and how I would have liked to have been helped. And you— that can't be learned sometimes without actually experiencing it. And similarly, similar to what's happened with yourself, you've decided to run with it and take what happened to you, which was negative and turn it into a positive by showing people how you can make it work for you. I mean, the section before, I think this is— let me try and find them, I've written a note— there's a fantastic section on just transforming the narrative on page 75. Yeah. And the words we speak to each other and ourselves actually are just incredible. I'm going to read a few out just to give people a little bit of hints and tips on what happens in this book because, you know, we've talked about how awkward is uncomfortable, it's embarrassing, it's cringey, it's full of nerves, imposter syndrome and all this lot. And we were talking about, you know, all these kind of negative connotations with awkwardness. And then you turn over the page and you say, you know, awkward is action and asking, it's sensitive, it's power, it's authenticity. Awkward is authenticity. I need to be around people who are authentic and if they're not, I don't feel comfortable. Awkward is caring. If you're feeling awkward about something, it means you actually are feeling, you're caring about how you're perceived, and it's that you can reframe that to being a positive thing. Imagine if you just didn't care. And it's vulnerability, you know, if my friends weren't vulnerable, where would my position be? What, you know, what could we talk about? And I love how you pointed out the different ways of just reframing your situation And yes, yeah, there's so many horrific things that can happen to us, but we can learn from it. We can be better people, we can share, and we can make life that little bit better. And that's why I love books like this, because it's just helping people to understand each other a bit more. Yeah, and all of those kind of negative words, and then, you know, add in all of the physical things that might be happening for you in that what feels like that awkward moment, you know, your hands sweating a bit, your heart beating a little bit faster, you know, thoughts rushing through your head, worrying about saying the wrong thing or what someone will think about you. Part of the reframing is to say, these are indicators, these are signs, these are messengers that are saying to me, I could do something really awesome now. And that obviously for me, the awesome is owning your awkward and pushing through and starting the conversation. And, and at that moment where you kind of transform your thinking and you reframe those negative feelings into, into courage and, and get into that conversation, have that courageous conversation, if that is something that is really beautiful. And you know, you turn, ask, you awkward into an asset, something that is really powerful, not a superpower. This book is not claiming to give you superpowers. You know, that has a place. That's, that's, you know, it has a place. It's a great idea often, but I just felt for this, this wasn't about superpowers. This is about reframing something and, you know, embracing it and playing with it and exploring it. Yeah, I really like that. I do. And also, I think you've discussed so many different topics as well. So it's like, you know, not everybody goes through the same scenario, not everybody's going through the same thing in the same way. And you bring up the subject— was it page 17— of being offered meds. And so many people see that, you know, it's riddled with stigma, supposedly. And is, I mean, definitely less so in London. I find, um, if you walk into a pharmacy, I think basically the main drug that is on the shelf is citalopram. It seems to be there more than Lemsip these days. Um, and people just realize that, you know, sometimes we just need a helping hand. And it's— I remember when I was actually offered anti-anxiety meds and I actually felt good about myself for doing something positive to help myself. And you know what, they said, oh, it'll take a couple of weeks to sink in. By that evening, I was feeling positive because I knew I'd made a step towards self-care. Yes, absolutely. And, and I also had a lot of stigma around medication. Certainly when I was having those first conversations with my GP, I was given you know, leaflets and papers to read about certain antidepressants. And, you know, to be honest, Hazel, I was so depressed that I couldn't even read a leaflet at the time. I just didn't have the strength or the wherewithal. And because it was medication and I was frightened of it, I was suspicious of it, and I definitely had stigma and judgment around it. And so I said that I, I didn't feel ready to take medication, but what I was interested in doing was having some talking therapies. So I was signed up for talking therapies on the NHS, which was over the phone, over the phone and, and online as well. And You know, the thing is, I mean, we love the NHS and they have saved my life. They have saved my daughter's life. And you know what an amazing bunch of people they are. But you know, the truth is talking therapies in that format that I was first offered did not work well for me. Right. You know, it, it really didn't, but it was the first step. And I often say we need patience and perseverance to find what's gonna work for us. So that first step that you took to take medication and feeling good in the evening is the exact example of that. It's taking action. Yeah. That's caring for yourself. Taking action is caring for others. And it was only a, it was actually 2 years on, probably slightly longer than 2 years on, really for me on the other side of that clinical depression. So from a place of recovery, but I felt my mental health dipping again. And, and I also write about this kind of more towards the end of the book. And I was experiencing quite a lot of, um, uncomfortable thoughts around death. Mm-hmm. Um, so I went back to my psychologist. Now, my psychologist I had found beyond the NHS talking therapies. I was incredibly lucky, incredibly privileged that I had private health insurance, and that allowed me to speed up the process of finding someone that I had the right chemistry with who could help me. And that can be whether that's private or NHS. The big difference was that I could get there more quickly, perhaps. And again, the irony of being anxious and depressed, and yet you have to wait. I mean, it's just, it's uncomfortable, but it's unfortunately the way it is. Absolutely. And I went back to my psychologist and, you know, it's a real example of saying we're all a work in progress. So the things that had led to my burnout and that clinical depression you know, were escalated and heightened at that time in my life. But actually, I realized through therapy that, you know, I have most likely been experiencing episodes of anxiety and depression since my teenage years, and then beyond. So after that, that big episode, you know, these thoughts were coming back, stress was rising. I was launching PJs, the pajama business, and doing lots of things in the space of mental health. I'd found a new mission and purpose out of my own experience. I am a bit all or nothing, it has to be said. And you know, but I was experiencing poor mental health. But what I knew at that stage was talk about it, ask for help. And my psychologist, you know, we got a bit deeper with other things that impact on my mental health. And she then referred me to a psychiatrist, um, who was absolutely brilliant. And within the first session, he said two words to me that were groundbreaking in terms of me understanding my own mental health, and that was emotional dysregulation. What's that? Well, it can— it is most likely— and again, I'm not the mental health professional here, But it, it can come from trauma. Mine comes from trauma, and trauma can look like lots of different things. And trauma can happen when you're a child, a teenager, in your 20s. My trauma might have happened last week, but that trauma was combined with probably my nature, my character, my personality. That combination meant that it is quite hard for me to regulate my emotions. I can feel everything and I can feel nothing. I can go very quickly from feeling really optimistic and ambitious and like I can achieve anything. And as quickly, I can fall into quite a deep and unhelpful and, you know, often dark, depressed place. Now, that might sound to some people, if you know some different types of diagnosis like bipolar disorder, but I probably— if you think the mental health sits on a scale and we can all sit on different parts of that scale. So what I have is I don't have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder because my sign— my symptoms don't reflect that of bipolar disorder, but I sit on that scale. So I take a medication that will also be taken by people who do experience bipolar disorder, do have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, and it helps regulate my emotions. And I don't feel like a different person other than I feel just calmer. It doesn't take away my joy. It doesn't take away my ambition. Uh, it doesn't either take away difficult days, but with the medication and also different techniques through therapy, through mindfulness, and just through talking and being aware of my mental health, I'm more able to notice when things are happening. Ask myself what is needed, what do I need, and adjust my life accordingly so I don't get so stuck in the ups and downs. Good. I, I mean, there's been some very unhelpful programs in the '60s, '70s, '80s, and '90s that kind of depict medication for mental ill health. You know, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, you know, and that's what we seem to think that mental ill health was, where you were surrounded by people in white robes and you were dribbling in a corner because you'd taken medication, when actually you don't feel any different. You just, you know, your brain is just learning to reprogram to actually handle things a little bit better. It's very scientific, but you're not going to be changed drastically. I mean, I think with certain bipolar disorders, yes, they can be a little bit more intense, the medications, but most anxiety and depression medications won't change you particularly at all. It'll just give you, give your brain strength in the pathways to actually deal with what's happening. I think it's the synapses, isn't it, where basically depression and anxiety are quite often where the pathways and neural pathways have been damaged so much that you're just— this is why you sit there kind of getting frustrated and overwhelmed because you don't understand why you just can't handle something, you can't deal with something that's happened. And, you know, most drugs actually help repair those pathways, so it's not changing you, it's just making you better equipped. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's important to say that You know, for some people, their mental ill health is absolutely debilitating. Yeah. And, and it can take a long time to find the right kind of support, and that could be the combination of, of medication and other supports. But, you know, and it's not to diminish that that experience. But certainly, you know, there are so many different reasons that our mental health might suffer or be challenged. And often it's the talking about it, it's the seeking help that means if you can get that support and understanding about what is going on for you and why it's going on and Therefore, what you can do or what can be done to help you, the sooner you get that, then the sooner and more likely you will move into that place or move towards that place of recovery. And for many of us, and in, in the book, I talk about the mental health continuum quite early on, and it shows that we are all moving around this continuum that's It's kind of depicted by 4 quadrants. And, you know, we will all experience those ups and downs, and some of us will move into a diagnosable mental illness. And when we do, and when we accept help and treatment and have that patience and perseverance to stick with it and find what works, we then move into a place of recovery, maybe still living with that diagnosis, many of us, I think it's probably most of us, will move around that continuum back to the start and out of, out and away from that diagnosis, from that illness, in the same way that a broken leg will mend. And, but for some of us, we will live with that mental illness. And so we might not shift all the way around that continuum, but that doesn't mean if you are living with the diagnosis that you can't live a good, joyful, happy, content, healthy life. Yeah. You know, that is really important to say. Recovery looks like different things for different people. And I think I probably sit in that space of living with a diagnosis, living with mental ill health. But that doesn't mean I am struggling all the time. But it does mean that I just really have to be aware of it. I really have to take care and be tuned in to what I'm doing to look after my mental health and my physical health, because that impacts as well. Yeah, it's a, it's an all-round process, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And noticing when maybe it's deteriorating, or noticing when I'm kind of falling into bad habits, which I am at the moment. You know, having launched the book and, you know, talking about it a lot and promoting it a lot and sort of worrying about does anyone like it? Oh my goodness, people are now reading it. And you know, that's kind of really exciting because it's my mission to help, help more people talk about mental health more easily, but from a personal vulnerable place. It's terrifying because it's my first book. I mean, I'd probably feel like this if it was my second book. And maybe even your 23rd. Exactly. But when you, you were talking earlier about being overwhelmed, and like sometimes when you're overwhelmed it's not because lots of horrible things are happening to you. Sometimes you're just overwhelmed because everything's going right, and maybe you, you're worried that then, you know, how long can it keep on going right for? Or sometimes, you know, you just have too much on your plate and it's overwhelming, and it just means you don't have time to sit with yourself and actually order your thoughts and just just think about what's going on. So, you know, you don't have to associate being overwhelmed and anxious with negative things happening to you. There are lots of different reasons for that to happen. Yeah, but it's what you do to notice when that's happening and what you then do as a result of that, because it, it is a sign that something needs to shift, and it probably means that I talk about again towards the end of the book. I talk about the exhaustion funnel and how when we're working so hard, the first things to, to, to go out of our day-to-day are the things that are either joyful, the, the playing in life, the things that us pleasure, they're often the first things that we drop. Yep. And then the next things are, you know, talking about it or just, you know, kind of general self-care, which for me can mean that I don't do my mindfulness. I don't go out for a walk with the dog and my husband because I've got to get more work done. And so then I start working harder. And, and that's not necessarily what I need, but it's just a habit that I, and a behavior that I fall back into. So sometimes I really have to kind of plug into a different type of mindset that I might not want to, but I know that I kind of have to choose my mood and choose, choose to do the harder thing, which is self-care. And understanding ourselves. The biggest gift we can give to ourselves is understanding ourselves and knowing what it is that we need to do to put us back on an even keel. And as I quite often— the term I quite often use for Get Booked is Control Alt Delete, you know. I know if I'm feeling a little bit overwhelmed, what I need is to go and walk the dog, listen to Audible. Sometimes I don't even want the earphones in. I just want to hear the sounds of what's happening. It's kind of a little bit forest bathing-esque, but I know that I need that sometimes. Or I know that I need to be somewhere where I'm not particularly stimulated, so that means moving myself away from my home because I know that I've constantly got to empty the dishwasher, put this away, I've seen that the kids have put a greasy handprint somewhere, so I'll go and sit in a cafe café. And if I, if I go sit in a café for an hour, I will get more writing, more reading, more thinking done than if I spent 3 hours at home. And it's sometimes it's just knowing that that's going to work for you, it's the best tool ever. Yeah, absolutely. You know, when, you know, nearly every time I force myself to stop stop working and go and do something that comes under the, the umbrella of self-care. Of course, what will happen is you've created space. Something, you know, for me that is probably worky, but it could, you know, it might be a family issue or a conversation maybe that I want to have with a friend. I usually find that by creating the space, moving away from the computer, moving away from the work, usually I'll go for a walk or do something different and the answer will come. So even if you can't do it for your own self-care and self-love, which people find so difficult to do, actually there are business benefits, there are work benefits to creating space. You come up with solutions, you come up with better ideas and different thinking. Yes, completely. Being able to allow your mind to run a bit more freely without just— some people need to keep themselves busy to kind of stop certain thoughts coming through. But you know, it's— there are so many different tiers to what we can go through and how we need to handle it. And, um, I just want to go back to the structure of the book because we are so running out of time. If we really were sitting in a pub drinking a bottle of wine, we'll be on the third bottle by now. So there's just, just for all of our listeners, as you go through Own Your Awkward, there's some fantastic elements at the end of each chapter, the cornerstones of awkward conversations, and you break them down into confidence, capability, communication, and compassion, and for each subject that you're talking about in each chapter. And I love how that kind of just brings that to the fore for people to kind of digest and understand, and you've got nice little try this moments as well. Yeah. Little sections where you just say, you know, why don't you give this a go and see how this makes you feel, to see how this works for you. And I love that. And was that something that you always wanted to do, or was it as you were writing you suddenly went, ooh, ooh, this could work? It was, do you know what, it was a combination of things that I have used in the past through the training that I do and, you know, translating them so that they would work in the book. But in all honesty, it was working with a brilliant publisher and editor. And, you know, you're not on your own if you're an author. You have this brilliant team around you. And I loved that process. So it was actually, you know, the editor and the publisher who said, you know, can we create some exercises that 'Help bring this to life and help people think about some of these different points from their own point of view.' And of course, as soon as they said that, I could see immediately how that could work and just needed to do a little bit of an, an adaption to make it work within the book. And also, I didn't want it to feel suddenly like a school book or you know, a big complicated set of exercises, you don't even have to write them down. You can just read them and think about it from your own point of view. Or if you want to get a bit deeper, yeah, get your pad and pencil out or notes on your phone or, you know, however best you think and create a note of things and you can get a bit deeper. Well, that's pretty much what I've done as well. There was bits where I wanted to talk to you about certain sections, and there was other bits where I've kind of said to myself, "Ooh, when I've next got 10 minutes, I'm going to give that a go." I feel so lucky in doing this show that I get to read these incredible books, and then whereas most people read a book and go, "Ooh, that's great, I love that," I actually get to sit down and actually talk to the author and kind of get down to the nitty-gritty of it, and I love it, and I hope that the listeners love it as well. I must just say, it was— oh, actually, did you know you talk quite a bit about, and you've got a few quotes from Meg Matthews in regards to people shaming and discussing the topic? And here at women's radio station, Meg actually has Meg's Menopause. Show. So she's actually at the same station as Get Booked. Wonderful. I didn't know that, but she is wonderful, and it's been so great getting to know her. And she was brilliant and supporting PJs, our pajama business, which is, you know, also led by that mission to make mental health an everyday conversation, but through the power of the pajama designed by brilliant artists, you know, the importance of art in our life and culture and how that supports our mental health. But also the emblem of the PJ Day, you know, when I had that deep depression, I couldn't get out of my pajamas. But also now from a place of recovery, there are days when I joyfully stay in my pajamas and I call that self-care. So we wanted to take that emblem, the symbolism of the PJ Day, and then create beautiful, kind, caring pyjamas that could almost act as like the Trojan horse to deliver messages of hope, help, and also resources to people through that kind of more accessible, slightly more fun, chic, beautiful way. Again, a bit like the book, just to make the conversation easier. Meg supported us brilliantly when we launched the pajamas, and she and I started this conversation that, again, when you share your stories, you know, you build like a deeper relationship with someone really quickly. And I loved her contribution to the book. I thought it was incredibly generous and incredibly poignant. I do— the thing is, it feels like it's a really simple idea, but I love the concept, and yet I hadn't even given it more thought until I found out about PJs, and I just think, yeah, if you can't get out of your pyjamas, make them some pyjamas that make you feel a little bit better about yourself, and especially in the lockdown, it was a thing, wasn't it, that sometimes we were bragging on social media about about how scruffy we looked and how long we'd been in the same clothes because nobody cared because no one's allowed to go anywhere. Everybody was a bit scared even to go anywhere and there was so much going on, we were so overwhelmed and, you know, we'd be sitting there with, you know, congealed egg down, a really rubbishy t-shirt and pants that basically were comfortable because we'd had 63 packets of biscuits in the last week and it was, it was, it was making us feel worse because we just felt like we weren't taking care of ourselves. And at least if you're going to stay in your pyjamas because you just don't want to get out, at least know that they're beautiful. I mean, I've got my heart set on the Augustine. I think they're my favourite. Yeah, they're such a beautiful piece of artwork, and I do find them quite calming, even though there's quite a lot going on there. In terms of an artwork. But yeah, they're beautiful, and, and the artists were so generous. And I do— I mean, my husband is an artist, so that's kind of where the idea came from. Because when I was thinking about my what next in life, I had had a hysterectomy and had this kind of dicey death moment. And on the other side of that, you know, I'd been told on the operating table, stay with us, Michelle, hold on, you know, a little bit like in a film. And I don't know, you know, whether there is any truth or accuracy in making a decision in that kind of setting to hold on and stay. Encouragement. But I felt like I did choose to, and, and I always felt like had the operation and that situation happened a few months before when I'd been in the depths of depression. I just kind of wanted to, if I'm honest, and this is, you know, please everyone look after yourselves because this might be a triggering thing for me to say. But remember, I'm on the other side and in recovery. But there was a part of me that might not have wanted to hold on. Yeah. And there was a part of me that sort of wanted to go to sleep, um, and not wake up. So, you know, on the other side of that, even kind of in the hospital after, essentially that team had saved my life. I'd had a massive internal hemorrhage after the hysterectomy, which is in incredibly rare. Um, I just knew at that point that probably something quite major needed to change. And up until that point, I was due to go back into Liberty and pick up my role. And at that moment, I realized it's time for me to do something different. And, and that in itself had been causing a huge amount of anxiety. I was almost defined by that business that I had, had grown. Over the last 16 years. But, you know, I knew I wanted to do something that created a new sense of passion and purpose. And, you know, the line is do something you love, isn't it? Yes. And I would sit there and I would say to— I'd wail to Remy, you know, I'm not passionate about anything apart from sitting in my pajamas. And that's where The idea sort of started to come when I was thinking, no one should feel awkward talking about themselves. What am I gonna do next? I want new purpose and passion in my life. I want to stay in my pajamas. Art is really important to me. And to be honest, Hazel, I put all of those things together and I said to Remy, what if you had a pajama business? Artists that could, you know, blah, blah, blah, as I've explained. And he said, I'll design you a pair of pajamas. And then I said it out loud to my best friend Susie, who is a brilliant brand expert, but she also had her own reason for kind of encouraging me and getting involved in setting up PJoyz because she had lost her brother Dave and a very good friend of mine to suicide. Um, just a few years before, and she wanted to create something that was in his memory. And she really firmly believed that had he felt able to talk, he would still be here. So, you know, that is why— that is our why, to have that everyday conversation. This is what I mean about there's so many different elements to this book, Own Your Awkward by yourself, Michelle Morgan, and I must say page 107, conversation starters, conversation non-starters, there's so much information on here, in here to actually help people who are struggling or for other people who just want to help people who may be struggling. We're running out of time and I really wanted to talk about Liberty and You know, it's— we— so I just want to point out to our listeners, if they want to find out a little bit more, they can pop onto liberty.co.uk, a creative business that works hand in hand with brands and the next generation to build the future better. So they can find out a little bit more about you, and the same with pjoyce.co.uk. And I really wanted to talk about the whole, um, mental health first aid as well, but we've run out of time. But there is, you know, you've got, you've got some resources up up on pjoyes.co.uk as well, so people can check those out. We've just got like a couple of minutes left, and something that I always like to ask my guests here for Get Booked are, um, one of my favourite ones is, is there someone in the public eye that actually inspires you, somebody positive you'd like to share with us? I couldn't not say Ruby Wax. Right, yeah. She's had such an impact on me. She is the reason that I got to my GP when I got to my GP. That's so good to hear. She is the reason that I discovered MBCT, which is Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy. And she is the reason that once I'd been on that retreat, and then about a year later when the pandemic hit and all things came online and I definitely had more time and space and I trained to become an MBCT instructor. So that's, that's another thing that I do. I told you I was all or nothing. You are, aren't you? I really am. I love that. Which is joy and pain combined. But I am what I am and I might burst into song now. Need no excuses. Ruby Wax has absolutely been that inspiration, and so I would have to say her. That's brilliant. And I normally ask for 3 top tips on helping achieve good mental well-being, but throughout the last hour of this show, I think we've covered about 83 different top tips. And I do hope all the listeners have really got something positive out of our discussion today. And I must say, Michelle Thank you so much for joining me on Get Booked. I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I think it could have gone on for at least another 5 or 6 hours, but we're going to have to cut it off there. And please do let me know when you release your next book, because I've got a feeling you've got a few more books within you. And please come back on the show. It's been a pleasure and a privilege. Thank you, Hazel. You are very welcome. Thank you for listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station.