Get Booked – Amanda Robson, “My Darling”

Hi, and I'm Hazel, and you can listen into my show Get Booked every day of the week at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout Get Booked, we talk about what I've read, what I'm reading, new releases, chat to authors, bloggers, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all based around supporting women's and men's emotional well-being, where opening discussions and offering support via the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved, and just pop on to womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked. And you can go on to our SoundCloud as well and just catch up on what is going on. Now I do have something rather fabulous to tell you about that's happening here at Men's Radio Station and Women's Radio Station. We have collaborated with the Mental Health Solutions in Business to offer £100,000 free mental health courses for NHS and frontline workers. It's time to give back, to say thank you, and to show our appreciation in a practical, supportive manner. We've all clapped on the doorsteps, but as the lockdown slowly eases, um, with the thought of a second wave of coronavirus potentially looming, NHS and frontline staff will finally have time to reflect on their magnificent, heroic selfless work. The tireless men and women are, like us, only human. They are not immune from the enormous stress that has been experienced. And as a way of providing hands-on practical help, broadcaster and writer here at the station Russ Kane and his co-founder of Men's Radio Station and Women's Radio Station entrepreneur and theatre owner Howard Jameson have joined supporters with Steve Jackson and Bernadette Bruckner, founders of Mental Health Solutions in Business, to offer this free £100,000 worth of accredited mental health awareness courses. Um, so please, full details of this groundbreaking initiative that we're offering is available on both Men's Radio Station and MBS— no, msbhelp.co.uk. So go and check out those websites and to find out what is going on. I'm very excited about this initiative. And today we are in the remote COVID studio for Get Booked. I am actually on my holly bobs in Devon. I am broadcasting from the Lincoln Hotel, and they've very kindly given me a little space to do this show and chat away to Amanda Robson, the author of the released— newly released book, My Darling, 24th of August, the follow-up to Envy, Guilty, and Obsession, all of which were addictive reads. And My Darling is bang on the money— female empowerment, mental health issues, narcissism, revenge, and control. There were so many twists and turns. I often think It's a great wonder when a book leaves you thinking about the morality of an ending, because right and wrong are just not always that clear-cut. Life isn't that simple, and that is exactly what My Darling is. And my name made it into the book, and I like to think that it was intentional. Hello, Amanda, thank you for joining us. Hello, my dear, thank you for having me. And I think the initiatives you were telling your listeners about, which just sounded incredible. I'm most impressed. Yeah, do you know what, it's just they've got such a strong sense of ethics and ethos here at Men's Radio Station and Women's Radio Station, and they were looking for something where they could collaborate with other businesses to just give back, and I think it's brilliant, and they're so excited about it as well. I just, I think they're brilliant, Russ and Howard. Yeah, well, I think so. I think it— because I mean, it has all just been so traumatic, hasn't it, for everybody, the whole experience of COVID So I think that's wonderful. Yeah, and it's just as it says, you know, we have all been clapping and going, yay, NHS heroes! But you know, sometimes like literally something else can happen in the news and we're like, oh well, we've forgotten about that now. Now you're not having a pay rise, da da da da. I think we just need to remember to keep on remembering who, who were our frontliners. Yes, absolutely. Although I do think it's quite interesting, I mean, the NHS did, did, and do, and will continue to do incredible work, but we've got to remember there were those in supermarkets who still had to go in, you know, there was bus drivers, train drivers, they were all frontline workers, and the police force as well. Yes, amazing, yes, absolutely. And I'll tell you what else, which I didn't think got enough thanks, but radio DJs and broadcasters, because it was a very lonely time for a lot of people. I mean, I was lucky because I was with my family, but even so, I can't tell you the pleasure I got out of listening to the radio and listening to the DJs and people phoning in, and it made my life feel of a more sense of community, and the DJs were always thanking the NHS and everything, which is quite right, and the shopkeepers and the delivery drivers, but they never really pumped themselves up, and I kept wanting to say thank you, so now I can say it on air to you. Oh, thank you. I mean, it was interesting because the radio listenership has skyrocketed throughout COVID. I think people were bored of TV, And it, you know, and so many people, they had to do it remotely. So, you know, there's been times when there's been, you know, a cat jumping on a keyboard, or when the Wi-Fi goes down because so many people were working from home that it just wasn't stretching to the millions of people starting to work from home. It's been definitely an interesting time. Yeah, yeah, but I think the radio gives people a sense of community and company. Yeah, it's a bit more personable, isn't it? So you can kind of have it on while cooking or just pottering around the house, and you don't actually have to engage as much in terms of the visual element. Yes, yes. Well, anyway, I was very grumpy doing a lot of my household chores until I just started walking around with my headphones clipped to my ears with the radio on, and that cheered me up immensely. Well, you were one of the lucky few who had a dog and was out and about and had something to do. I mean, you know, there was a thing at one point where everyone was wanting to steal other people's dogs, or there's been, you know, isolation puppies bought and whatnot, but you already had a puppy. Yeah, I've got a golden retriever who's 2, but I— there was a dog, there was, was it a block of flats in Italy or something where they were only allowed out to to walk a dog and they only had one dog between them all and this poor dog was exhausted. He was constantly being walked around the block nearly all the time. I think I did see in that same Italian flat block, didn't they have people buying in doggy onesies and pretending they were going and walking their husband or something? Oh dear, no idea, I didn't read about that. They put him in a onesie and take him around the block. Yeah, see, my kids have a dinosaur onesie, so I wouldn't be able to wear them. I think they'd be able to figure out what was happening there. But, uh, well, this is the thing, there are so many dogs, they're going to struggle. We've talked about the mental health issues of actual humans, but all these dogs that have had people at home for 6 months and all of a sudden they're going to go, "What? You're leaving me?" Yeah, my dog's getting like that actually, and he had everybody at home. He had my two my two sons, my son's wife, my husband, and he started crying now when anyone goes out. He's— and of course the young people have gone back home and they've gone back to work, so he's missing them. And anyway, anyway, come along, we're supposed to be talking about books. Yeah, well, we'll get to that, we're all over it. I mean, in lockdown have you been writing? Yes, I have. I was in Wales for 4 months with my family and I did get on with my writing, but I found it— I did miss my normal life, so I found it a bit harder to concentrate. And we spent so much time cooking and making bread and doing this and that because we couldn't get out and about to restaurants or have a change. And I spent an awful lot of time doing household chores more than normal, so I got less work done in a way. Which is strange. Well, we all went through the very similar stages, didn't we, I suppose, of doing ridiculous amounts of cleaning, and I've only just got back into writing because it was kind of, it was a weird time mentally to write, wasn't it? Well, yes, I found it so, and I mean, I know some people have really concentrated and done well, but I, you know, I mean, at first none of us really knew what was happening and it was all a bit of a shock and you would be worried for your elderly relatives or worried about somebody's job or worried, you know, I think there was so much concern. Yeah, so no, I have found it harder. I need— and then I had a huge break once lockdown was over. I am— we— because we just bought a boat last year and we've been sailing and we've been off sailing for a month, which has just been fantastic to go out and about in the fresh air and have a bit of a change. And as I said to you before the interview, we sailed all the way down to Dartmouth and Salcombe from Chichester and it was It was just fantastic. So now I really need to get my head back down to normal and get on with my work. So I've got 2 months to finish my next novel, so I think I'll be doing 10 hours a day for 2 months now. Lovely holiday. So is this going to be along the same lines as Guilt, Obsession, and Envy, and what is being— your new book, My Darling, are they going to be along those lines? Well, yes, it is, it is similar, but I, I think that My Darling, the one I've just written, is, is different from my first three because in, in My Darling I think it's much more of a crime novel. It's much more forensics in it because you sort of, you know who's committed the murder and why, but then there's all the double crossing and the more the mysteries in who's going to go down for it with all the double crossing. So I think that's a bit different. And my new one is, is about, um, a daughter-in-law Well, it's really about a very nasty mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law is sort of trying to get her revenge. So I'm enjoying writing it because I didn't find my mother-in-law easy anyway, but that's another story. Does she know about that? Oh wow, yeah. Well, I'm sure that will strike many a chord with people. But do you know what? I mean, this is what I've said to you and I put it on my recent blog as well. I think the blog where I reviewed My Darling, it's, you know, it's entitled Wellness, Grief, Friendship, the Devil, and Revenge. And Revenge, I mean, it is— I don't know if you agree with what I said about My Darling, but I think it tested the boundaries of morality and what was right, you know, because you know, how people tried to get revenge, and was it right to kind of set up the guy even though he had done something? But also, you know, he deserved a little bit more revenge in so many different ways. Like, I'm trying to make sure that I don't, uh, give away the storyline too much, but, you know, there are a lot of questionable morality issues in how the book ends. Do you agree? Yeah, no, I do agree. In fact, I was so impressed by what you said. I thought it's very insightful, and I actually— I don't think I sort of like deliberately started off to sort of write it like that. It just was how it came out. But I think you summed it up beautifully, really. It's a bit humbling, really, for a writer when you work so hard and then somebody just reads it and says something so So, yeah, so insightful about it that I could have never thought up myself, but actually I 100% agree. I think you're a very clever young woman, I really do. I like having you on my show, you make me feel good about myself. No, but really, I really like what you said, and I think you're right because, yeah, the men— there's some terrible male behaviour in the book, which spurs her on. But when I'm writing a novel, I suppose I do tend to think they're not just going to commit the crime, there will be a reason why. That nobody— most, well, most people aren't going to just— there are very few people who would just go and do something for no reason. And then, yes, so that, you know, even if it's because they're severely mentally ill, they've got some terrible problem, or somebody's treated them badly, or, you know, but I would have thought, although I'm not a criminal psychologist, but I would have thought most people in the end when they do commit these awful things? There's something behind it all. Well, you know, jealousy plays a huge part, but, you know, there is a lot of narcissism involved in My Darling, and a narcissist genuinely feels that he is in the right, and it's very much a woe is me, I can't believe I've been put through this, they've, you know, ruined my life, they've done this, because they have no concept of ownership of what they're doing. Yeah. And it's, uh, there were so many different layers to it. I mean, you really— it kept on changing up until pretty much the last page. The root of the story kept on changing. Yeah, well, I found this actually my hardest novel to write. I found it very, very difficult, and I found some of the aspects I found the most difficult with it, all the scientific aspects of the forensics. And I had, I had a senior crime scene investigator who's a lovely lady, and she's in the acknowledgements, and she, she helped me. And I was put on to her by a friend. And then I've got a friend in the police, I've got a friend who's just retired as a very senior scientist in the WHO, I've got another friend who's a medic, retired medic, who lives next door. I think all in all, at one point when I counted, I think I've had 7 different scientists advising me, and I've got a scientific background as well, so I found it very tricky to get it, you know, as it is. So I am pleased that you like it and you've given me such a lovely review, because I have found it hard. So it's really nice to, you know, when you've worked hard at something and, you know, at times I thought, I just can't do this, it's just not going to come out right. So I'm pleased I'm pleased it's finished and I'm pleased that people do seem to like it. Well, do you know what? I mean, it's interesting. If you want to get away with a crime, just say you're a writer and it basically gives you carte blanche to go up to police officers and forensic scientists and say, "Dude, how can I get away with a crime? I want the nitty-gritty. I want as much information as possible." And they're like, "No, no, no, you can't do that. I'm a writer." "Oh right, yeah, it's research. I'll tell you how." And now he's into— we broadcasted a show on GetBooked with Chris McDonald. He's done a fantastic— he's had a fantastic debut, but because of how the book— what was happening in the book, he had to research online, you know, if you cut a woman's throat, what direction is the blood gonna go, and things like that. And, you know, how to kill people quickly, and his search history must be— but, you know, and if you were worried about— if you wanted to find a murderer, I mean, you'd look at the search history, but then you just say, "I'm a writer, I'm researching." It's great. Yeah, no, well, no, you're right, no, it's worrying. No, I agree, I absolutely agree. When I went to see the crime scene investigator and she was telling me all the things you could do to cover things up that would wouldn't be detected, I was thinking to myself, oh my goodness, you know, it's very, you know, in a way it is very dangerous knowledge, isn't it? So I mean, years ago when I used to work at the Poisons Unit, we didn't talk to members of the public at all. We, you know, we would only talk to members of the medical profession. So yeah, no, I agree, it is a little bit sensitive. Oh, and I worry sometimes when I'm doing internet searches because, you know, if something awful happens or they decide again, you know, to investigate you, I mean, not that they would, hopefully. I don't plan to do anything wrong. But, you know, for example, I sometimes need my characters to get hold of something like really nasty and dangerous that they shouldn't really be allowed. So I would like to know how they get into the darknet, you know. So I was thinking today, just lately, for the thing I'm writing now, my one about the mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, my character, she's at work thinking about poisoning her mother-in-law, and she's just wondering how to get hold of something really awful on the darknet. So I'm thinking, well, how would she find out? What would she do? So I was sort of trying to— I was doing this search on the internet about how to get into the darknet, and then I was just thinking, if I ever got into a tricky situation, you know, you just sort of have to be careful really, because you are sometimes looking up the most awful things as a writer, and it can also be embarrassing. I mean, my young people have left home now, and my eldest son's 30 and my youngest son's 28, but you know, when I was writing and they were at home and I was looking at all these absolutely dire things on the internet, I thought, oh my God, What are my kids even going to think about me if they see what my search history is? But anyway. But the thing is, you've got to remember when you share the Wi-Fi in a household, all those fabulous little cookies, they have a look at what you're searching and do ads based on your search history. So, and that's not just based on what you're searching, the whole family get those tailored ads, which could be interesting. Yes, yes. Oh, I'm just trying to think of all the things I've always wanted to search online, and I could just turn around and say, "Yeah, I'm researching a book." Yeah, well, yeah. There you go, listeners, there you go, there's a way to get to start researching the dark web. Wow. So you are a Times bestseller. Yes, yes, Guilt, my second novel. Yes. Which, you know, it's nice to be recognized. And you also are the number one ebook bestseller for Obsession as well. So, you know, so our listeners know that, you know, you're not bad at it. Oh, thank you. Thank you, my dear. So, I mean, I think Darling is up there with the other three anyway, because it is quite different and it is, you know, hot topics of mental health, mental well-being, and narcissism. And it's— I do have extremely high hopes that I think you're going to get another award for this one as well. Oh, well, I hope so. That would be nice, wouldn't it? Yeah, we shall see, we shall see. It's just come out on ebook, well actually by the time this is broadcast it is coming out on the 24th, so I think this would be broadcast afterwards, and then my paperback's coming out on the 3rd of September. So yeah, I am pretty excited about it all. Yeah, me too. I can't wait to hear what people have to say. I love the Twitter writing community, everybody really gets involved and they kind of wax lyrical about each other. It's not kind of stabbing in the back. I mean, I think I've even seen today on Twitter you've got the likes of Phoebe Morgan, who I just think are absolutely fantastic, going, yay, happy ePublishing Day! Oh well, yeah, Phoebe's lovely. Yes, but she's a super novelist herself, and but she was my editor. She bought my first book, and now she's very, very senior in HarperCollins. But she's wonderful because she's very senior in publishing, and she's a brilliant writer, so. Well, it helps, doesn't it? Yeah. And is there anybody out there at the moment whose book you've read and you've just gone, that is just fantastic, I want to tell as many people as possible? Yes, well, I've read Emma Curtis's latest book, Keep Her Quiet, and I just thought it was exceptional. I mean, she's a very stunning writer and she's had a good, you know, her books have sold well, but I just think this one's even in a different category, and I did tell her that. And, you know, I enjoyed that, and I love the work of, you know, quite a lot of the current writers who I'm friendly with. I really love their work. Caroline England's work and Sam Carrington and Libby Carpenter, I love all their books, but I also like reading more classical work, and I have read a book lately from the '90s, I think it was published in 1997 or 1998, it's Tom Wolfe, Bonfire of the Vanities, and that's just, it's not, you know, it's a serious book about problems in America at that time, but I thought that was wonderful. So there's all sorts of books that I read, not just crime and psychological thrillers. You see, The Bonfire of the Vanities is a film as well, isn't there? Yes, I haven't— I don't remember seeing the film, but I couldn't believe the book because it was all about the problems, you know, the racial tension and stuff in the '80s, and it so captured a time. And even though I hadn't been to America in that time, the sort of greed and the commercialism and the Sensitivities. It was so similar to London at that time, it seemed to me. No, I found it very profound reading it, and it was so beautifully described. The thing is, with Something, I mean, it is obviously a very popular book, and there's that whole issue of do you read the book or watch the film, or do you do both? And obviously, if you're time restricted or you're, you know, you're not a huge fan of reading, then you go straight to the film. However, The film has Tom Hanks, Bruce Willis, and Melanie Griffith. I mean, that's just the most incredible cast. I really want to watch the film, and I don't know whether it's like sacrilege to do that if I haven't read the book. Well, I love reading, and obviously I nearly always prefer books to films, and I usually prefer to read the book really than to watch the film, but Because I love all the words and the language, and that's what I love, and the descriptions. And in a film you don't get that. You don't get so involved, do you? No, and also a book gives you your own imagination of what the characters look like, or what the scene looks like, and the film is telling you. So I think— I can't actually think— the only film that I have preferred to the book It was The Lord of the Rings, and that was because I found Lord of the Rings so sort of otherworldly that it didn't interest me terribly. But when I saw the Peter Jackson and all the beautiful filming, and I— so I suppose I didn't love the book, but I loved the films. Didn't love the books, but I loved the films. So if I don't love a book and then the film, I might think the film's an improvement, but otherwise I never ever ever do. Gee, it is quite an interesting dichotomy because there's so many people that just do not like reading, and, or if they do, they don't like reading classics. And so if you have the opportunity to experience a classic without having to endure reading it, I do think there is a place for these films because, you know, people are very happy to watch a classic book be hashed out in Hollywood where you've got the likes of Keira Knightley and, you know, I don't think Tom Hardy's particularly been in any classics, but, you know, somebody pretty to look at that's quite popular, it does— it serves a function, I think. Well, of course it does, and I mean, they're all good stories, and they— yeah, I mean, I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing them, and most people love them, that's fine. I— but I particularly find some of the classic things a bit annoying because they're so often untrue to the— you know, they often just— oh, a few major characters, or, you know, I just— and I, that— I just, I remember having an awful argument with my family one Christmas because we were watching Great Expectations, one of the BBC adaptations or something, and they just left out one of the main characters. And I just, I couldn't believe it. I just could not believe it because I'd been loving Dickens since I was about 18. And, and my son was saying, well, don't be ridiculous, they've got to tell a story and they've only got an hour and a half. And why should they? And I, you know, if I'm so up myself that I was just silly, but anyway, we've all got a personal right to a choice, isn't it? And I like the authenticity of reading the classics, so I don't tend to watch those classical films very much because they often just twist the end or change it, and then it just confuses me, and I think, oh, that's not quite right. So, but I mean, if you don't like reading and you love watching these things and they're always beautifully done, well, that's great, isn't it? Well, do you know what, it is interesting. Now, I read Wonder first by RJ Palacio, and he— when I watched the film afterwards, I was like, that film is excellent, it didn't even resemble the book. Oh, but yeah, because it's just another— it's a different piece of work, isn't it? Different piece. Yeah, but I mean, I love watching it. I watch loads of telly and films, so I'm not, you know, I'm not knocking. I'm just saying, if it's a straight competition between a book I've read and a film, I nearly always prefer the book. That's all. Yeah, not that they shouldn't make these films, and you know that I don't understand why people enjoy them or anything, because obviously I do. But, um, I tell you one thing though, and everyone will tear me down anyway, but you know the film Fifty Shades of Grey? Yes. Yeah, well, you know the apartment and the way they did it all? That, the way they did that in that book was exactly how I'd imagined it. Exactly. So yeah, I thought that was pretty clever because I was thinking That's the first time ever anyone's made a film and they've got the rooms in the house and everything just exactly how I thought it was, whereas normally that, you know, I'll have imagined it is completely differently. So I thought that was pretty good how they did that. I mean, I'm not necessarily commenting on all the whole of the rest of the film or anything because it's a while since I saw it, but I was just surprised that some of the scenes, the settings were just as I thought, which I don't think I've ever watched anything where it's been quite that accurate before. Well, and what is quite interesting as well is sometimes, depending on how the writer describes the surroundings, it is sometimes left to your own interpretation, and it's quite interesting whether your interpretation is bang on with what the director has decided to go for as well. Mm, yes. Okay. There's a book I read recently called A Wash of Black. We actually featured it on Get Booked a couple of weeks ago, And it is basically about a book that is turned into a film, and somebody gets annoyed that the director has not portrayed the book properly and goes around killing people the way it was supposed to be done. The people that— the actual murderer feels were the main characters. Oh gosh. So the actress in the film, he ended up killing her the way she should have been killed properly with attention to detail as per the book, which it's an interesting concept. It's a very clever idea, isn't it? Yes, it is horrible. Well, it was, it was very interesting. So for the listeners out there that was listening to that show as well, he's actually a primary school teacher, and I said, so, you know, how are the parents of the kids you teach responding to your gruesome death scenes knowing that you're looking after their 8 and 9-year-old children? And then what did he say? I mean, interested. What did he say? He said there were a few dodgy looks, to be honest, but the main response is that, you know, the students in his class now know his first name, and God forbid you ever knew the first name of your primary school teacher. Yeah, oh, I don't know. It's very interesting because, you know, a lot of the crime writers write really awful scenes. Well, not awful, I don't mean that rudely, I mean, you know, unpleasant scenes. And They— and yet you meet them as a bunch of people and they're most good fun, kind-hearted, lovely people. And people often say to you, you know, what's the matter with you? You know, if you're writing all this dark stuff, is there something wrong with you? And I'm like a really cheerful, happy person. So— and I find the crime writers generally are. So I think there's a huge sort of dichotomy— is that the right word? Or there's a huge discrepancy between people who write really gruesome stuff and their actual personality. Yeah, polarized. So I mean, you know, I am— I'm always writing about bitchy, difficult women, but I really don't like women like that. And you know, if anyone read my work, they probably think I wouldn't have any girlfriends because, you know, all I'm writing is on someone's trying to sort of undermine somebody else. But in actual fact, those are the women I don't like and I keep away from them. And my girlfriends are all really close to me, and I'm very close to my mum and all this sort of thing. So it's not, um, You can't just read too much into what, you know, the sort of work someone writes and what their personality is like. Yeah, otherwise can you imagine if you could infer everything that people— writers would be scared to write about things if they just thought they'd be pigeonholed. Yeah, I mean, because, you know, it is, it's just people's imaginations, isn't it? And actually, in talking of imagination, and actually going back a little bit to about, you know, when somebody, when a writer describes what's going on and you kind of develop in your head that kind of scenario yourself. And you live very close to, um, to me in southwest London, and the first book you wrote, you kind of based it loosely on the area and called it a different name, and it was kind of, you know, a lot, as I said, a lot more loosely. But then the last two books, you've made it quite obvious that it's set in our local town. Yes. I mean, as I'm going around, I mean, I dropped my kids off at school and this was before COVID happened and I'm like, this is so where that person was supposed to be abducted. It was described. Yeah, I'm glad you can recognize. The thing is, I just find it easier when I'm writing if I've got a set place in my mind. I just find it easier, you know, if you're having to describe how far they're walking to the shop or the school, or who's looking out of the window at who. I just find it is just much simpler to do it if I've got a clear idea in my mind. So my darling is set in Henley-on-Thames, and I, you know, I know in my mind exactly the two houses that they're supposed to be. I mean, I haven't made it absolutely obvious, it's not very fair on people who really live in them, but in my mind I know exactly where those two houses are because that's just helped me when I'm writing a scene of someone's looking out of the window when the neighbours move in, because the neighbours from hell move next door to one of my main protagonists, and she's— her boyfriend's looking out of the window when they move in, so I know exactly where that window is and what the perspective would be. In my mind, it's all absolutely clear. Well, there is— I'm sure that there's the inhabitants of a particular house that I'm convinced one of your stories is based on, and every time I walk past I kind of just look in the window a bit to see if they're looking out the window checking what the neighbours are up to. Well, the characters are all made up, but in my mind I've got in, you know, the heads, you know, where the different houses are. But of course most people don't, you know, you make so many different friends through your life, so not friends who've known me all my life, but I've got one very close girlfriend and she said to me, "I know exactly which house that was and what room it was." And where— she knows me so well, and she's known— she didn't know me, you know, like her mum, she lived next door to me when she was a baby, and her— our mums were best friends, so she's known me forever. But she's probably the most person who recognized scenes. But I do find it— I mean, there's something about even when you're reading books from American authors and they just happen to say, you know, that they've they've gone to London and they've been on a boat going through Richmond or whatever, and you still get that kind of "Ooh, ooh, that's Moat Manor!" Yeah, yeah. I do like that. But how do your ideas come about other than, you know, wanting to write about the relationship you have with your stepmother? I don't know really where my ideas come from. I think that's quite a difficult question to ask writers. I think That's one of the things about a lot of people who do write novels. They do just get lots of different ideas. I've always been making up stories in my head since I was a little girl, and it's just, they just come to me. I don't really know where I particularly get them from. You know, sometimes they come really quickly, and sometimes I've had to sit down and push it a bit more. But I mean, this thing about my mother-in-law is I did find my mother-in-law difficult, and I've had a lot of friends who've had difficult relationships with their mothers-in-law. And my, uh, my daughter-in-law and I get on really well, uh, like really well. We're very close. My son has been with his wife, they've been together 10 years, but they actually got married last summer. And, um, you know, we, we get on very well. And I, you know, so it's just something I've always thought about, you know, as to why one relationship doesn't work, why another does. Um, so, so the one I'm writing now is something that I suppose I've been mulling over for for quite some time, uh, but the, my darling, it just suddenly— I, I probably made up the plot in about half an hour. It just suddenly, suddenly got this idea, you know. Um, wow. But it's just, just how it is, I think. Did— has your husband had something to say about the book you're just finishing? Uh, no, no. Um, he does— well, I mean, uh, sadly his, his mum died a while ago. But I think, no, no, he's very cool about it because he knows how I felt, he knows how a lot of our friends have felt. And of course it's only a novel, I mean, it's not, you know, it's not absolutely, it's just a bit of an idea. I mean, it's a common, it's a common problem, isn't it, that mothers-in-laws and daughters-in-laws can be at each other's throats a bit. So I think he thinks it's just fine to write about it. That's good, I was just quite intrigued, but I was going, mm-hmm. No, no, well, because it's not really them, you know, it's not really. I mean, obviously I've changed quite a lot about it and about the characters, but, um, I don't know, lots of mother-in-laws and daughters-in-law have a bit of competition between them. So, um, yeah, well, it is that whole, you know, you're now in charge. Well, it's just, it's a power struggle sometimes, isn't it? Yeah, no, it is. I mean, and you know, that's what I'm writing about. Yeah, it is, and it can be. Um, I mean, it, you know, it makes me wonder because I've thought about it a lot, because it isn't with my daughter-in-law and I. And I, I know this sounds a bit mean to blame the man in the middle, but it makes me wonder because my son has always made it very clear how much he loves me and how much he loves his wife. There is no need for us to be in any competition. We all sort of need each other. It's just not a competition. Whereas with my mother-in-law, it was always a competition. And I, you know, I mean, I even used to get a bit cross when my husband used to say she made the best chicken casserole in the whole world because I thought it was really plain. And, you know, it's as if, you know, she could do no wrong, and I'd be a bit in competition with her. So why was that? Was that because he didn't make enough fuss of both of us and she was always trying to undermine me? So maybe he didn't continue to make her feel special enough even after he was married to me. That sounds horrible blaming him because I don't really think that it's right, but, but I am just intrigued as to why some of these relationships work and some of them don't. There are no hard and fast rules, you know. Sometimes you can be the worst parent or worst child ever, and yet the other person still works out perfectly well. Sometimes you can be really thoughtful and really supportive and just constantly try hard to integrate either your partner or your parent into more of a joint relationship. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, that is the beauty of the human race that, you know, there aren't any hard and fast rules. You know, there are things that we should and could be doing, but it doesn't mean it's going to necessarily work. However, I do have the vision of this wonderful casserole and you turning around and saying, "Well, you know, if you like plain food, good for you!" Anyway, but no, no, you are right, you are right about how random it is, you know, how— I mean, like, I've done my best bringing up my children, and— but I just I feel somehow we just bumble along. I mean, I'm sure we did so many things, well, you know, you sometimes think, how is it that we're still all so close now? Because, you know, we've obviously all had sorts of arguments and done all sorts of silly things, and I don't know, it's almost there but for the grace of God, the expression, isn't it? You know, if things turn out all right or if they don't, I think sometimes. Or maybe, you know, they're just treading carefully in case you write a book about a murderous daughter-in-law or a son who gets his come up and— Yeah, maybe. I have got— that's a sign there that I've got on my door. What is it? Be careful or you'll end up in my novel. I mean, I expect a lot of writers have got that sign, but I've got it on my study door. And yeah, but I don't— I think— I mean, writers just write little snippets of different bits of ideas. You don't tend to just pick one person and, you know, write about them. I mean, you shouldn't do that anyway. You can't. It's not fair. But Most of anybody's characters in All the Rice I Know, it's just little observations and sort of snippets and bits of a whole mix of people. Well, I do remember I interviewed somebody once, and the book, it just— there was a sense I got that it was probably about 80% real, and her daughter came in with her to be interviewed, and I was like, "Is this true to life? Did you really have the mother from hell?" And this, this, this, and she's going, "No, no, no, it's loosely based on it, but it's predominantly fiction." And her daughter behind her was going, "It is true, Grandma was not nice." 'Okay,' but obviously she was trying to just be polite and kind of, you know, put up a little bit of a boundary, but it was really quite fun seeing her daughter go, 'Yeah, be honest, Mum, she was not nice to you.' Now, a couple of things that I like to ask during this show, just because there's so much that's going on in the public eye at the moment, is there anyone out there that it can be anything, they can be writers, politicians, bloggers, anybody who you think is just championing life at the moment that, you know, when you know they've said something, you're quite intrigued to find out what it is because you think it will be good. Say that again. Say when, what? Do you mind repeating the last bit of the question? Well, just somebody in the public eye at the moment who is just smashing it out of the park. They're saying and doing good things that you aspire to, that you think they're making good positive social change, or maybe they're funny and you just think that they're just a great person to have in the public eye, just somebody who you just think is brilliant? Oh gosh, that's a question, isn't it, when we're all trying, when so many people are trying so hard and it's all so difficult, so I would hesitate to To pick any, any, any, I mean, I just, I'm gobsmacked by that question. I mean, so many of us all just, you know, the politicians are trying their best, aren't they? It's all been very difficult. The, you know, the people, senior people, the scientists, everybody trying to get the vaccines and, you know, it's just a nightmare out there and there's so many people working hard. I wouldn't like to pick anyone, but as I said to you, which I said earlier, the people that I really love are some of my, you know, my favourite DJs because they've just kept me cheerful through this, and I think they don't get enough thanks. And I mean, I particularly listen to a lot of Radio 2, and I think they do a very, very good job with music and making people feel inclusive and giving us all a lot of fun. And I suppose at the moment I'm rather in love with my DJs. Oh, good, that's nice to hear. I like that. And also there's so many of these TV reporters and presenters that have had to do their own makeup. Oh dear, poor things. Well, it's quite interesting to see— well, there is that, but it just shows just how much makeup artists do and, you know, the talent. I mean, some of the interesting episodes of— I don't know if you're a soaps fan, but Emmerdale did a couple of episodes where they just showed two characters who had locked down together and what they were going through, and it was just kind of something to kind of fill up the schedule a bit because they were all running out of programmes, but they couldn't have— they just had two actors on set, very limited crew, but they were doing their own makeup and they just— because of lighting, it is a skill, and so many of them just looked a little bit like Donald Trump. Oh dear. I wouldn't put him as my icon, I'll tell you that for nothing. Well, there are very few people that would, but there are some incredible non-bra-burning feminists out there that I think are doing incredible work as well. You're right, there's so many people to choose from. You do realize there's as soon as this interview finishes, you're suddenly just gonna go, like, 10 different people are coming to your head and you'll go, "Ah, this one! Oh, I'd have loved to have said this one! Oh, and this one!" Yeah, probably. But I mean, you write a lot about mental health and mental well-being and certain issues that people have and why it drives them to do the things that, you know, a lot of the characters do in your books. Do you have maybe 3 tips on mental health and mental well-being that you would like to impart to our listeners? Well, I think, I think if you do feel bad, I think a lot of people can cover it up for ages and not seek help. And I think also close relatives, sometimes it can be very hard to recognize somebody who's slowly sleeping into a depression. Maybe they're more antagonistic, more difficult, and you just think, oh, it's their age, or, you know, they're a bit stressed at work, and you cannot realise sometimes. So I think it's very important to try and recognise early signs of depression and mental health issues. And I think it's also very important to be strong and brave about accepting that you need help, because I think a lot of people think, oh, I'm not going to go and I admit that I'm finding it hard to cope and I don't, you know, they're too embarrassed. Although I think there's a lot of good work going on now to make people, you know, more cognizant of problems as they come up. But that's all I would say is to try and accept that you need help and take the help. And yeah, because a lot of people are very frightened about having, getting help. But also then a lot of people say that because the NHS is so stretched, that it's very difficult to make sure you know there's enough funding to get all the right help, which is why this— what you're doing now is fantastic. I do think, you know, I mean, I'm quite often being told I'm an empath, but you know, there are a lot of constraints on the NHS and you know, you do hear stories of, you know, 4 or 5 months waiting lists for people with mental well-being issues, but there you know, there is only so much money and there's— everyone's trying their best to do as much as they possibly can. But, you know, we, we do need to be kinder and a little bit more thoughtful and thinking outside the box a little bit in terms of, you know, if somebody treats you badly, you know, don't automatically think, ah, they're trying to be horrible to you. Maybe there's something else going on, and try and, you know, put yourself in somebody else's shoes. And if we all just thought a little bit more outside the box and tried to empathize a bit more with people, we might be a happier and easier place to live, you know. Yeah, I think that's a very good point. Yes, it's all too easy to be a bit judgmental if someone shouts at you or if someone's a bit difficult without trying to find out what's behind it. And also there's other things that you can be doing. I mean, One thing that me and quite a few of my close friends do is that we all go for a walk once or twice a week with our dogs. There's 5 or 6 of us. We keep on alternating who we're standing with depending on whose dog's lagging behind or who's picking up a poo or whatever happens. And it's an hour of stomping, decent energy, and just chatting. And it's airing what is going on in your head. And sometimes the the best thing you can do is order your thoughts and get out what you're thinking without any judgment. If you can be somebody who can listen to somebody or encourage them to chat without judgment, it's worth its weight in gold. Yeah, no, it is, it is. And also those sort of friends, as I have lovely girlfriends like you're describing, and yeah, we're a huge— I think we've always been a huge to each other. And now this might sound a bit sexist, a bit old-fashioned, but they— I think they say that women can be more communicative like that, don't they, than men? That sometimes men have more difficulty opening up. So I think there's more of a move to try and get men to sort of open up to one another and sort of— I mean, my girlfriends and I, we regularly tell each other all our worries, you know, regularly. We always have. And sometimes we have emergency meetings in London at short notice if something's gone wrong with one of the children or something's happened. Emergency, emergency! Have to listen to whichever one of us is having a bit of a crisis. And I, you know, I've got a very big support group like that. And I think— well, not a big support group, that sounds— I mean, a lot of support from my, my close girlfriends. And, um, I, I think, well, for me it's been a marvelous, uh— I, I think that's one of the very sad things actually about getting old. My parents that I'm staying with here today, and they're 87, And they're so lucky because they've got each other still, which is wonderful, but none of their friends have left. I mean, I think they've just got one or two friends. Most of all their friends have died. My mum was just reading a letter out to me, or, well, she's blind, so I was reading a letter she'd been sent from one of her old friends, and she said, "You are the only couple I know that are left of all their friends." And you know, you spend years building up your friendship group. It's, "Oh, my friends are so important to me," you know, they're like a family. Family, they're as close to me as my family, my very close friends. And, you know, and then if you get to being old and you're so lonely because you haven't got that anymore. So we have to think about the elderly's mental health, really, because they must be more lonely than anybody. What actually was very interesting that happened just before lockdown, and we knew that all the pubs were going to be closed on the Saturday, and I went to the pub on the Friday, kind of a last hurrah, I'm going. And I got chatting to this elderly lady at the bar, and I was like, oh, you know, I thought, I thought the older generation were more scared of being out in public. And I kind of got chatting to her, and she said, well, my husband died 2 or 3 months ago. I come to the pub just to be surrounded by people without being a burden to my kids, because I want to be independent. Present as well, and I don't need my kids as much running round after me, worrying about me, if I can just have some form of social life. And this is going to go when the pubs close. It's not about sitting there and getting drunk or meeting people. It's about having noise and having people around us. And the British, because of the whole stiff upper lip thing, yes, we do like a drink, but do you know what? It's the social element of pubs and just having the noise and people circulating around us that is more important than necking 3 Jägerbombs or whatever it is. And I found it so interesting, and she said as soon as she goes into lockdown she's going to feel quite sad that she's going to be taking more time away from her children who have their own children, because they'll be worried about her being lonely. Yeah, well, I do think our pubs are a wonderful social institution, and yeah, our general life, the way it is and has been. So yeah, I'm absolutely longing for it all to get back to normal. I miss the atmosphere of live music. It's such camaraderie, there's such love. I find music, and it's just so Well, I just love listening to music, going to concerts and modern music, and there's such camaraderie at concerts like that. If you all like a band and everyone's dancing, you get chatting to people that you— it's so lovely. I love that atmosphere. We had a great time at the rugby in Twickenham, the Wales-England match, the last one just before lockdown. I was at that! We? Well, our family were at that because my daughter and and I was Welsh, you know. And so anyway, they were all there together. A lot of the family got tickets, and I didn't have a ticket. I went to the pub with another member of the family, and then we all went to the Eiopai afterwards. And the dancing! And we were all like dancing with these people we'd never met, and it was just lovely. And I really truly miss that. I know some people don't, and they'd just rather be on their own, but I miss that sort of— in the pub when certain songs were coming up, everyone in the pub was singing, you know, some of the old rock ballads and stuff, and I just thought this is such a special time. I know, it would— they will come back, it might be slightly different, but there is— it is that camaraderie, it is that whole kind of the social element. I mean, lots of people go to pubs and don't even drink alcohol, it's just, you know, having people around us, and therefore it gives you a little bit more independence. And I do want to just go back to what you said before about how women chat to each other, which is why we have the different women's radio station and men's radio station, because some issues we all have and they're all similar, but there are different issues for men to talk about, and women find it easier to talk. I think, I don't know the exact statistics, but it's something along, you know, women are, you know, 70% more likely to have mental health issues, whereas, you know, men are about 70-80% more likely to attempt suicide. No! Yes, it's shocking, isn't it? Yeah, and it's because they can't vocalise what's going on, and it's not part of, you know, the genetic makeup and whatnot. And this is what Men's Radio Station is about. I mean, their tagline is 'where men like to talk,' and it's trying to encourage men to talk about a range of different issues, and they're trying their at best, Howard and Russ, to, you know, help men who have previously struggled to get out the thoughts that are going on in their head. Yeah, well, I'm— yeah, I think it's wonderful. I'm very impressed. It's an important issue, and if the government or the NHS are hugely, you know, understaffed and underfunded, then we need stations or just shows of any way, shape, or form, whether it's radio or literature or anything, to just do their bit to try and help with the mental health and mental well-being issues that are going on throughout the world. Yes, yeah, well, no, that's excellent, and that ties in with me saying that I respect the DJs for all that they've helped me through lockdown, and it'll sort of ties in in a way that it's a very good media, isn't it? It's a very good social media to help people. Yeah, and there is— I always say that books are a huge part of mental well-being anyway, because first of all, you know, it's entertainment. You know, you read about My Darling and it, first of all, it's entertainment. It's just refocusing your brain somewhere, but also in a bizarrely serious way Somebody might read My Darling and go, wait a minute, that's been happening to my friend, wait a minute, this is the mannerisms of so-and-so, and it's kind of, it's teaching us and informing us of other people's mental health and mental issues and mannerisms and coercive control and things like that, and I think there are very few books you can read that do not have a mental health element to it. Yes, or even if it's not necessarily a mental health issue, it's— if you are reading books that just describe how other people feel and think, I feel like that always gives you a bit of an insight into other people and makes you feel a bit less lonely somehow. I mean, yeah, it's just a world of trying to understand inside other people's minds. Which is different. I suppose it's still mental health, but I mean, sometimes you read something and it's not necessarily someone who's having a terrible problem, it's how they feel about some sort of happiness, or, you know, the way they love their husband or their children, and you think, "Oh, that's how I feel," and it just gives you a sense of community as well, which is important in life. Well, sometimes writers actually vocalize what you've been thinking and you've not been able to pinpoint point it or put it so succinctly and it helps you reorder your thoughts. Yes, well, I've always thought what you've just said, that's my— that's an idea of what makes a really good writer, or for you to particularly enjoy a book. If they express a feeling or an idea that's always been there under the surface for you, but you've never managed to express it like that. I think that that's what often gives me, you know, a big buzz when you read a book. It just gives you a buzz. Yeah, and actually, do you know what, a lot of my friends know that I've got this show and I do love reading. They always see me, you know, reading a book somewhere, whether, you know, even walking down the street and whatnot, trying my best not to walk into a lamppost. And like, "Oh, I wish I could read, I just can't get my brain to concentrate." And I'm like, "Well, then you're the exact person that should be reading." Well, I just said we've always loved reading, my grandma and my mum and I've just— and so the family all read. So we were all on a holiday on the beach together, and I looked round in the middle of the day one day, and we were all in a row on the sunbeds. My husband, me, my daughter-in-law, my son, and my other son. And every single one of them got a Kindle or a paperback, and we're just all in a row with our heads at the same angle reading. And you just think, well, how come? Like, some people, their families always read, and they you know, like my family, my boys have never not read because I've always, always read. So, but then some children, they never have the example of seeing people read. Yeah, it's definitely something that, you know, it's nature versus nurture, but some people genuinely do not like reading. But there's, you know, if people just don't like literature, then that's fine because there's certain people that just do and don't like other things. We're not all the same. But The joy of things like Audible mean that there are very few books out there that don't have an Audible version. Yes, and a lot of people are getting a lot of pleasure now from Audible, aren't they? So I think there's a time and a place for all of them, and especially in lockdown when I was just cooking away and you have, you know, the likes of Emma Jane Unsworth chatting away to you, and I just absolutely loved it. However, do you realize we have chatted for almost an hour and we're coming to the end of today's Get Booked show? Well, we're a pair of chatterboxes, you and I. We are. Well, when you come out with the next one about your stepmother, I would like to know a little bit more about it. But thank you so much, Amanda, for joining us here at Get Booked. Oh, thank you. I've loved talking to you as ever. As always, Hazel. And I can't wait to find out what award you get for My Darling, so make sure you all go out and get it. Thank you very much. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.