Get Booked With Hazel Butterfield – Alex Churchill, The Night Lawyer

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield, and this is my show, Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station, all about books, authors, and their incredible way to help support good emotional well-being and enrich our minds, to distract, entertain, and of course to learn, opening discussions and offering support by the incredible writing community out there. Come and join us, get involved, and if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can do at womensradiostation.com/shows and it's on our SoundCloud. On today's show, I will be welcoming Alex Churchill, author of The Night Lawyer, a little bit of a stumble there, where once a week Sophie Angel decides what the papers can and can't say. During the day, she's a barrister. She struggles for justice in a system that's close to collapse, where she confronts the most dangerous aspects of humanity. Life changes when a wealthy Russian officer offers her the biggest case of her career, a rape trial with a seemingly innocent client. But is someone manipulating Sophie from the shadows, or is there danger much closer to home? Now, I read this book, and what struck me is sometimes we have to go through challenging times to know ourselves and just how strong we are. The same goes when someone treats you terribly. At least you know and you have the choice to surround yourself by the right people. And being a lawyer, you get to see not only the dregs of society but incredible injustices in the law. The English justice system may be light years ahead of other countries, but our freedom on social media, it can be deadly. The Night Lawyer is a book of this and focusing on other important areas of society such as misogyny and stalking. Now, I am so incredibly excited to get this interview going. You can tell because I keep on getting really excited with my intro. Alex, thank you for joining me. Hi, hi Hazel, really, really thrilled to be here. I've been listening to your show, really loving it. Thank you. There's not enough on the radio about books. I'm always looking for programmes about books. I'm so thrilled to be here today and thank you for the lovely introduction. Well, you're very welcome and as I was saying, I've been so excited. We were talking a little bit off air just about some of the core themes within this book and one of the joys of my job is that I get to read these incredible books and then ask all the questions that most readers would like. They'd love to sit down with the author after they've read the book, and I get to do this, and I don't even know where to start. I mean, we were getting quite animated about stories, but I think we'll— yeah, hi. Pin in that for a bit. I'd like you to just kind of introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and why you decided to write this book. Okay, so I'm a criminal barrister. I live in London and I've worked at the London Criminal Bar. I wanted to write this book because, well, firstly I hope that people find it entertaining, but I felt very strongly about what's happening to the criminal justice system at the moment. And most people hope that, unlike the NHS, which you're bound to need, all of us are bound to need at some point, most people go through life not having to come into contact with the criminal justice system, and indeed hoping that they won't ever have to come into contact with the criminal justice system. But you may well do, if not as a victim, then perhaps as a witness, perhaps as a defendant. And if you do come in contact with it then, or you— somebody in your family does, then you want to have a system that's efficient and fair and works smoothly. And sadly, successive governments have underfunded the police and the courts and legal aid for criminal cases. Our prisons are in a pretty terrible state, as you may know. And that has a terrible impact on people who get caught up in it. In this book, The Night Lawyer, Sophie Angel spends a lot of time preparing cases that get derailed because of lack of court time or prisoner not being produced from prison or some video link goes down, and that was quite a common experience for me at court. Also, people who work in the criminal justice system are not well paid. They're not the fat cats that you see, that you hear about. It really is a vocation, and you do want very high-calibre people working in it because what you do affects people's lives and the lives of people around them. So that was really what was behind— one of the things that's behind me writing the book. Yes, sorry, no, go on. I was just going to say, but what I really liked too, I mean, this is what I love about reading books like this, even though that it's fiction, it's opening your mind and your viewpoint onto what actually goes on behind the scenes. And they, you know, as soon as you meet somebody and they say they're a lawyer, you think, wow, they must be driving around in an £80,000 car at least and living the dream. But, you know, until you make it, it's It's up there with, you know, how the doctors are treated in the first 5 or 6 years of their career. Everybody just assumes it's a high-powered, well-paid job when it isn't. You are dragged kicking and screaming, kind of, you know, on the same salary as pretty much somebody that works in a fast food joint. Just to get through, you've got to kind of put out to get something back, haven't you? You have, and also you have got a lot of— nowadays people qualifying will have a lot of student debt behind them as well to have to pay off. You have to pay your clerk's fees, you have to pay your chambers rent. All that comes out of taxed income. So, you know, it is very difficult, and that's why poor Sophie Angel has to work one night a week at the news desk checking for libel, which a lot— I didn't do it, but a lot of my friends did it. And that was the inspiration for the title, that I— this was ages ago. One of my friends, we were talking about a case that we'd both been in, and he said, um, oh well, if you want to talk about, just ring Express Group and ask for the night lawyer. And I thought, ah, the night lawyer, what a great name for a book. But it took me years and years and years afterwards to actually get around to reading it. And I think the other, the other takeaway from the book also is that, um, the power of social media and the press and the way that they can actually usurp the role of a judge and jury in a way that I feel is very, very dangerous. Tweets can be shared millions of times, social media is unedited, you're very unlikely to get sued for libel on social media, and as happens in this book, Henry Hanbury is given a terrible press before his case even gets to trial. And I'm sure you're aware of this happening in other cases, you know, that it's happened to all sorts of public figures like Cliff Richard and Paul Gambaccini. Well, I mean, very similar is Caroline Flack, where everybody judged and decided whether she was guilty or not before the case even went to court, and Yeah, you know, she ended up taking her own life because of online bullying. And I know that, you know, in other countries, um, you're not allowed certain social medias and, you know, this doesn't happen. But it's— and we, we're lucky that we have freedom of speech. People don't use it wisely and they forget that, you know, I, I work in radio, so I, I'm governed by Ofcom, and we are not allowed to comment on any case at all that is in the public interest or, you know, with any legal implication, because in case we're seen as influencing people's opinion, which if we are, we don't know what the truth is. We do not know what's going on behind closed doors. And, you know, what people actually impose on social media is scary. I mean, you have, you know, people with absolutely no medical history or experience whatsoever making assertions on Facebook about what the right thing to do is with COVID and you just kind of think, well, no, your expertise is knitting. I know, that is absolutely appalling, but it's also, it's so influential, and, and it's, there's, there's no comeback against it really. So that was another message of the book, that, that social media has got too powerful and It makes it much harder, although judges routinely give a direction to the jury, members of the jury, you know, you try this case on the facts, you're not allowed to look it up, look anything up on social media. People are human, how can you police that, you know? Oh, and can you imagine, as human beings, if we're told not to do something, generally that makes us want to do it. Well, certainly, that's certainly true. And just for the listeners as well, just so that they understand, so a night lawyer is somebody who is employed by magazines and papers who want to publish articles and they want to make sure that they're not going to get done for whatever they're publishing. Exactly, exactly. Or if they are going to get done, then it's worth it. Yeah, well, I found that quite interesting because at one point he was saying, yes, well, 'This we could get in trouble for, however the court fees of actually being told off for this would be about £200,000, but we'll probably make about £400,000 from extra copies because of this sensational story, so yes, we'll still go with it.' Exactly. I mean, that's fiction, but it's probably true. They're there to check at the news desk, somebody or something can come to them and say, 'Look, we want to run with this, is it libellous?' and the libel lawyer is there to say yes you can or no you can't. So that, but you know, it's a tiring job and you're doing it after a day in court normally, but it does give young barristers a chance to make some regular money because some of the time, you know, you may not even be in court, and with COVID the courts weren't sitting after lockdown. The courts simply weren't able to sit and now they are sitting, but there's a backlog of something like 40,000 cases in the Crown Court and something like 100,000-200,000 cases in the Magistrates' Court. So, you know, there've been months and months and months when courts haven't been able to sit, barristers haven't had any work at all, small high street legal aid firms I think probably go to the wall, some of them. And that is not good news for the citizen because if you want representation, it's going to be very hard to get it. Yeah, your little puppy's dying to get in on the show, isn't he? She doesn't like— all right, I'm going to get one of my daughters to take her out. I took my dog for a really big walk this morning because I know, as we were saying off air before, you know, everybody, as our listeners will know, everybody is working from home. We are remote broadcasting because most studios, especially women's and men's radio stations, they don't want to encourage the presenters to be going on public transport and going into the centre of London. It's just, it's irresponsible if it can be done from home. So it does mean that, you know, we have cats, dogs, you know, I've got my cat looking at me now just saying, 'I'm dying to walk across your laptop right now.' But, you know, it's nice, it's nice that your dog wants to join in already. She'll probably make more sense than me. Give her a— is it he or she? She. She. Give her a case, see how well she does. Okay, I've completely lost my train of thought now. I'm sure it wasn't something to do with— me about tips on well-being. Yes, uh, well, actually, um, before we go, I always ask my guests for 3 tips on well-being, but there's There's another core theme of what was kind of running through the Night Lawyer. What I was going to ask you about is, unfortunately, a lot of the people that are in charge of the organizations where Night Lawyers work are quite often the people that are getting in trouble throughout the world. Half of these social media and publishing companies, don't they? Yeah, they do, and that's rather tricky waters to go into, but I think it's the same. It's the same. I mean, I'm very sad that traditional press is suffering so badly because although They are, as you said earlier, really well regulated, and whereas these platforms aren't. And I think, I think the— I've always tried to keep my children off social media as much as possible, and I think it has got the potential for seriously damaging the well-being of young people. Oh, undoubtedly. Competitive and comparative and puts forward ideals that just are unattainable for most people. And it seems to be envy-based, which I find really, really unattractive. And I wish that there was more being done to regulate it. We're living because of mental health and mental well-being and what people need to kind of make themselves feel good about themselves, and quite often it's validation and getting a like or a retweet or is somebody showing some sort of interest in what you've got to say on social media. It's addictive, and people keep on pushing these boundaries. I agree. I think one of my tips for mental well-being right now is to stay off it as much as you can. There's a very good documentary about the effect of— The Social Dilemma, I think it's called, about the effect— I've seen it. Yeah, I mean, isn't that brilliant and frightening at the same time, though? Well, do you know what? I tried to get my kids to watch it and they refused to because they knew it would be used as a stick to beat them with to get them off their phones. I mean, but I said, listen, the people who are in charge of social media platforms do not let their children on it. They don't limit it, they have a blank no, a blanket no, because they know it is dangerous. I know, I know. It's so manipulative. And, and yet, you know what, I'll be honest, I have 4 Instagram accounts, 3 Twitter accounts, a Facebook page, and, well, 2 or 3 different Facebook pages depending on which show I'm doing and, and, you know, what business and this, that, and whatever. I use Pinterest, I use them all, and I kind of need to with what I do. I've done that, yeah. But do you know what? Sometimes you can quickly go in to check everything, it's an hour later or possibly 2 hours later, you haven't even heard what your kids are saying and you could have been doing so much more. But you know, sometimes it's a must. I think one of the saddest things now is that I see families out for lunch, a meal somewhere in a pub, and they're all on their phones, all of them, they're just not talking. And you get little iPads for babies to stick in the pram. Oh, that horrifies me when I see that. So I know, I think as much as one can raise public awareness about the ill effects, the better. Another strand of the night lawyer actually that you were asking about was how traumatic events in one's childhood can continue to resonate throughout our lives. And that is another theme in the book, which I find really interesting, how you can— how these things, although Sophie Angel was a very good, a brilliant barrister, and very confident in the courtroom, In her private life, she is haunted by dreams and flashbacks from her very early traumatic life in Russia, and by the mystery of what happened to her uncle Kirill, and why her parents had to flee Russia. And I think I didn't really go into this perhaps enough in the book, but I think one of the damaging things about that sort of trauma is when her parents, with the best will in the world, didn't talk about it, and she remembers sort of people stopping talking when she walked into a room, people talking in whispers, and she always knew that there was something there, and it just grew and grew until it really began to damage her peace of mind. You see, one of the— I mean, there were so many parts of this book that kind of really struck a chord with me, but it's even though it was fiction, it's a good reminder that we don't always know why somebody behaves a particular way. I mean, I know there's, there's things I've kept from my children to protect them, whereas they think I'm being annoying because I'm not letting them see a certain person or, or whatnot. But it's because we don't always know. We're not in control of what other people can or choose to tell us about the reality of a situation. And just because somebody has done something doesn't mean they've done it to hurt you or to keep you in the dark. It is quite often to protect you. Yeah, and I think that's what her parents were doing in The Night Lawyer. They were trying to protect her. So no, I'm not going to spoil the twist at the end, but it was meant with the best possible intention. But of course she remembered enough of it to feel a sense of unease and guilt surrounding those, every time she had this dream. And towards the end of the book, obviously, the dream unfolds and you realize what actually happened. So I know we do, we do do these things always to try and protect our children, but somehow, sometimes it's not, it's not perhaps the best thing to have done. But it might have been at the time, and, you know, retrospect is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Yeah. And something else that also, another theme in the book is obviously if you're going to be representing some pretty interesting and dangerous characters, when it goes wrong, it can go terribly wrong, can't it? And being a female as well leaves you open to stalking. And yes, women do stalk men as well, but it is predominantly men. Men. Doing, doing the deed, isn't it? Um, and, um, we were talking a little bit off air. I've been, I've been unfortunately stalked quite a bit throughout my life, um, and I could feel the chills running down, just, just running down my spine, just, just at the thought of what was happening. And it's— I'm trying to make sure I don't give away too much of the storyline, but, but you've been stalked yourself, haven't you? I have. Not anything like as horrific as what happens to Sophie Angel in the book, but this was when I was still single. I was in the middle of a very serious rape trial with a really frightening psychopath who nearly killed his last victim. And he was in— I think he was in the psychiatric wing of Brixton Prison then. But I was at home. I lived in a one-bedroom flat. I was asleep. And I woke up to hear a man's voice coming from my bedroom. And I thought he was in my bedroom, and he said something like, I can't wait anymore, I'm going to rip your clothes off, it's all over for you, you'll be dead before tomorrow is over. I just thought, oh my God, he's in my flat, I can't get out without going through the sitting room, I'm going to die. And then I heard this beep, and it was my answerphone. He was on my answerphone. He'd left a recording on my answerphone. Anyway, I called the police. A very young officer turned up the next morning. He listened to this horrific tape, and I haven't said everything that's in it because it's just too nasty. He just said, 'Well, there's anyone doesn't like you very much, miss.' And I thought, well, wow. And he pretty much said that there was nothing they could do. And my head of chambers— we also did a lot of prosecuting in that setting at the time— my head of chambers rang the head of the police station, the detective, and he came over and spoke to me. But they pretty much said, look, I think you should move out for the time being. We can't really do anything. Anyway, he was He was convicted and got a life sentence, but he may well be out now. He may well have come up for parole. It's very, very frightening, and lawyers, barristers in particular, female barristers, are quite vulnerable. And it's happened to other women I know who are in the bar, at the bar. You know, if you're a young— particularly if you're young and you are representing all sorts of people, a lot of them may be innocent, some of them may be dangerous, and some of them may be psychopaths. You can't refuse a case because— I don't know whether you know about this, but as a barrister, we're guided by something called the cab rank rule. So we have to accept any case that comes your way, otherwise really the criminal justice system wouldn't work. You can't just say, well, I only want to represent nice middle-class people who've committed fraud. I mean, I only want innocent people, please. Yeah, I only want to represent innocent people. And so you're also subjected to lawyer-client confidentiality, so that if you are threatened, and this has happened to me as well, there's a limit to— they're very complicated professional limits on who I can tell and on what I can and can't say. It's extremely difficult. I mean, I've been threatened in the middle of a trial by somebody who told me that, you know, if he was convicted, he had mates on the outside who would see me, and I was not allowed. I had to ring the the Bar Council to get advice, but I was not allowed to leave the trial. I had to go to the judge to ask for protection, but I wasn't allowed to tell him what had been said. It's appalling. Well, you see, the trials cost thousands and thousands of pounds, and there are 12 people on the jury who'd been there for 2 weeks, who'd given up their precious time. You have to balance as a tension between, you know, the public interest. The judge was extremely nice to me. He allowed me to drive in and park in the judge's car park, and I had a police escort to and from courtroom. And again, he was convicted and is serving a very long sentence. But no, it's difficult, and you are vulnerable. And the law doesn't actually still— I mean, the laws have got better in the last 5 to 10 years, but, you know, I've had I had a stalker for about 6 months who used to follow me everywhere. Then eventually he knew where I lived, and eventually he cut the brake cables on my car. And the police said, you just need to move because he obviously knows where you live. I'm like, and you can't do anything about it? Like, no, not unless we've got— we can actually physically see him do something. And they did nothing about it. And I've had so many situations where the police just say, we can't do anything. Well, they can, they can actually do something. And but I, I, under the new harassment laws, have given victims much more protection. But the awful thing about stalkers is that, um, it is a, you know, for some of them, not all of them, but some of them, it is, um, it is a personality disorder. And yeah, it's a bit like having an Exocet missile locked onto you. They just can't think of anything else, and they are absolutely convinced that, you know, for example, that you are in love with them, and that if you only gave him a chance, you would see how marvelous he was, and you'd go off into the sunset together. And they're not really open to persuasion or logic. I know Lily Allen has had a terrible experience as well that's gone on for years and years. Unfortunately, they do tend to fixate on public figures, and they— but the courts do have more powers now to lock people up, and in a way, try and protect you. Well, I mean, I've only had one or two in the last 5 or 10 years, and neither of them did I actually go to police about because they've previous experience. Yeah. Do anything. But I think the general public have, you know, they need to be more culpable. If when they know something's happening, they need to be standing up for what's right more rather than just going, well, somebody else's back garden. Or, you know, it's— there seems to be, you know, light stalking is seen as kind of a little bit more acceptable. And it's just, it's absolutely appalling. I mean, this, but you know, women are quite, they can be quite vulnerable. And as is in The Night Lawyer, you know, it's along the themes of misogyny. You know, there are a lot of threatened men out there who are not, they either want to stalk or make some, make a woman scared or to try and make her feel more inferior. It's a mind game, it's a power struggle, isn't it? It is, and it's very, very frightening to be caught up in it. Really frightening. Um, and I agree, I think I wish there were more safeguards for women. Um, but you know, just try and keep yourself as safe as you can. And, um, I know it's absolutely horrible. Absolutely horrible. See, I remember at one point it got to a stage where I would cycle everywhere if I was going out on an evening, because cycling felt to me more safe than going on a bus or getting in a taxi, because at least I could just go really fast. Yeah, and it was ridiculous. But then also you have the terrible situation where a partner gets obsessed about a woman who's tried to escape from a violent relationship. And how to protect women. And well, there are safe houses and refuges, but quite often in that situation as well, men just won't let go. And the most dangerous place for a woman sometimes, if they're subjected to violent domestic abuse, is in the home. Well, and they're not always related to violence. I mean, I split up with a somebody once, and we owned a house together, and we had to sell the house while still remaining under the same roof. And he got unfortunately a little bit, um, interesting, and he was following me around everywhere. We had to be under the same roof about 9 months until the house sold, because it was a terrible time to sell a house, and I had my children, and, um, he, he wasn't the father of my children. And I would— I remember finding a folder full of my supposed whereabouts where he'd been following me for about 3 months, and I still then had to sit at the table with my kids. Oh my goodness, that is awful. Yeah, I would come home from someone's house and in the day, and he'd be waiting on the corner and he'd just follow me all the way home. But then you shut the door behind you and he's allowed to use his key and come straight in behind you. Falling. And there was nothing I could do. How was your— how did you manage to recover from that kind of experience? I still struggle now because at the end of the day, people knew he was doing it and nobody did anything because it was like, oh, he's just sad that you've split up with him. And I'm like, that's not an excuse to behave like this. But it was one of the reasons I'd split up with him because he was— he struggled with reality and right and wrong. But I spent as much time as I could kind of staying around at friends' houses with my children. But, you know, it was one of those situations where if you live in London, you can't just go and rent somewhere new when you've got a house because you can't afford it. And there's, you know, it's— we were kind of stuck there. Luckily, I had a dog that was quite protective, but, you know, that's actually— living with your stalker was quite interesting. Appalling. And also to have your children— you'd need to protect your children from the, from the fear that you must have been feeling. Well, the thing is, I was very fearful, but whenever my kids were around, I had to act jolly and go, "Hello, we're having this. Would you like some?" And I would be like, "Oh no," because you have to make— you have to protect your kids as much as you can. Absolutely, absolutely. So I hope you're in a much happier part of your life now. Yes, I've got my kids, my cat, and my dog, and I own my house and nobody else. And to help recover from that kind of experience, presumably the children have come to terms with it now, and they feel more secure with you where you are now? Yes, but to be honest, they had very little knowledge of what was going on. I had to keep it from them. Well, yes, a bit like Sophie Angel's parents. Well, not quite, but— Well, Yes, completely. Yeah, protecting your children from horrible realities. So I'm also thinking, um, the, the other, the other influence on my, on my book— you were asking earlier about the other themes— that my, my mother was actually Russian, and so I had, when I was growing up, um, my grandmother was It was before— my grandmother died before the Berlin Wall came down, and so she was in a communist country in the Eastern Bloc. And so part of the inspiration for the development of the Russian storyline of Kirill and Vasily came from my own experience of my grandmother's, my mother's early life in Russia and Estonia. And this goes back to what you were saying earlier about freedom of speech and how I think people probably maybe are not quite aware of how incredibly controlling governments of those countries were in the Eastern Bloc, and how difficult it was to live under such an autocratic state with no freedom of expression, and the terrible injustices that, that happened when you had the secret police and you have people rewarded for informing on their neighbours, and that's one of the reasons why I'm so dedicated to the idea of retaining freedom of speech in this country. It's hugely volatile, isn't it, the situation in Russia, and I quite liked that historical element of the Night Lawyer because You know, we know that there are, you know, some states that can be quite controlling, but we sometimes gloss over it or forget it. And I know that this is based on 30, 40 years ago, but has that much really changed? Well, I think what is very frightening is that the murder of not just Russian citizens on British soil, but also the murder of journalists in Russia. You know, there have been a lot of journalists who've been shot or killed in Russia. Putin— the idea of people being prepared, Russians being able to come over here and murder people who've become British citizens, or murder anyone on British soil, is absolutely terrifying. At the moment, one of the women I really admire is the young female opposition leader in Belarus. Who has dared to stand up to the 66-year-old, very autocratic Lukashenko. She's had to flee for her life and is now living in Lithuania, but is still continuing to try and get Lukashenko to step down. She tried to organize a general strike. There've been massive, massive demonstrations in Belarus. What's her name? Her name is Svetlana Tikhanouskaya, and she's young, she's pretty, she's dynamic, incredibly brave. And I think that kind of courage is just amazing because you are putting your family and your own life at risk. It does sound, you know, like she's signing her own death warrant in a way, going up against a system that you know, is well known for not going, playing by the book. Exactly, exactly. But you know, if the more people are scared of this, this is how people like that win, isn't it? You know, if they scare people into not standing up to them, the more people that they stand up to, the harder it gets. So, and you can imagine how brave you have to be to be a journalist in Russia today. To criticize Putin or to report on things that he doesn't want to be public knowledge. So I think it's changed in a lot of ways. I don't know if you've visited any of the eastern states or Russia. It's a really exciting place. It's incredibly beautiful. I mean, I love Russia. I've got a lot of Russian friends, but it's a difficult place to understand. I mean, they're very like us in some ways, but you still, if you go to Moscow, Moscow and Saint Petersburg are very, very different, but if you visit Moscow, you will see that people do not easily smile, and it's one of the things I said in the book, that years of years of being under really heavy leadership has made them afraid to express themselves in public. And in Moscow, I think I got the feeling that if you smile at somebody, they think you're a bit simple-minded. They think, "What's wrong with you?" Exactly. But when they're at home and then they trust you, they're just fantastic, you know, a wonderful sense of humor and loving and joyful, but there's a sort of national paranoia, I guess, about you never know where the next disaster is coming from, and you never really know who you can trust. Well, you really do have encompassed in The Night Lawyer the potential for so many different disasters. Well, misogyny, law, social media, murder, wrongly being accused. Yeah, I know, I know, I know. Probably I should have made it into two books. I think maybe some of it's been cut out as well, so you can imagine how much in the first place. So I had really good editors at Red Door, and they, um, they very sensibly, um, got us to cut out quite a lot of the Russian stuff, um, which is going into the, into the next book. I mean, they very much like the Russian angle, but, um it almost needed a book of its own, I think. But it has got— but it, you know, the relevance is that there's also the character of Lydia who is married to the owner of the newspaper and she's Russian, and it is the contrast between our freedoms here and what it was like in Russia 30 years ago. And Russia was also a very homophobic country in those days, and the, there was, you know, the way that gay people were treated was really awful, and that was another theme that sort of the injustice in Russia 30 years ago with Kirill and again in this modern-day trial with Henry Hanbury, they're sort of mirror image of each other but with different causes. I don't think it's changed that much in Russia, has it? I think it's still quite a dangerous place to be Yeah. If you are gay. And it's just, it's horrific. But you, there are so many different countries with different limitations. And are you going to be looking at some more of these limitations in your next book? Yeah, I think the next book is going to be about present-day Russia and Sophie Angel, I think, is going to go to Russia herself, present-day Russia, and there will be a trial involving naughty Russians here who are trying to subvert the criminal justice system here. So that might be the next big topic, I think. Wow. I need to— I'm also very interested in profilers because it's going to involve a murder, and I haven't had to use a profiler. I'm not sure how much we use them here, but I'm very interested in the way they work. So I think that will be another aspect of the, of the next one. So just wait and see. When can we expect number 2 to be coming out? Oh, don't ask me that. Have you finished it yet? No, no, I haven't, I haven't. It's writing the synopsis, and that's a really tough bit actually, I think, is sort of writing the synopsis and planning it. And although because it's the second book, it's easier, the characters are already here in my head. And the— that was one of the big struggles of the first book, is just thinking about the characters. And I wanted Sophie Angel to be more— to have these sort of insecurities that a lot of us have about, you know, "Am I good enough to do this?" I think some people call it imposter syndrome, you know, "Am I good enough?" And I think it affects women probably more than men. You know, whether you're a surgeon or a teacher or a lawyer or a broadcaster like you, you might have that moment of thinking, 'Oh my God, can I really do this?' Yeah, yeah, completely. I don't know if that's ever happened to you, but one of the struggles when you're writing is halfway through you may think, 'Oh my God, is anyone ever going to be interested in this?' You don't know unless you try, and this is, you know, it's the beautiful thing of the human race, we never know what people are going to appreciate, but if you don't try, you'll never know. And also, do you not prefer books where— I mean, I think the best crime fiction really depends on, well, on atmosphere, a character who you can really feel invested in, and a sense of place as well as the plot., and I wanted to create a character who, who was more three-dimensional, I think, than somebody who was, you know, super confident, superwoman, like the sort of Killing Eve characters. Because I know a lot of much younger women who are my daughter's ages, and friends of my own, who— and most of us do have anxieties and insecurities. And I think particularly the younger generation who are comparing themselves with an ideal that it's just unrealistic. You know, they have to be good-looking, clever, successful, confident, um, have everything, and yet still be, you know, financially confident as well. How are we supposed to— I mean, there's— I find it interesting that there are so many people out there who think that they're successful because they've you know, they look perfect and yet their skin tone, they can't afford a home and things like that. And it's just, we're living in unrealistic times, unrealistic expectations. I agree. But one of my, one of my favorite books is, um, about— it's called Darkfire and it's by an absolutely brilliant author called C.J. Sansom. And his character is a very— well, in the book he's called a hunchback because this is set in Tudor times, and he— in Tudor times they used to believe that that was really bad luck, and he was rejected by everybody. He's incredibly clever and a brilliant barrister, and he's a sort of tragic romantic figure. And he— the books are set in and around the Middle and Inner Temple, which is where I've worked all my life, and the courts in, um, Henry VIII's time. And it's beautifully researched, every single detail of Tudor life under Henry VIII is there. And if you actually go along the Thames and you then you walk up to Fleet Street where there used to be the River Fleet. In fact, I think it still runs underneath the pavement there. You can almost imagine the sights and sounds of Henry VIII's London. Oh, it is based in 1540, isn't it? I'm just having a look at the Shardlake series where he believes himself to be out of favour with Thomas Cromwell, and he's busy trying to maintain his legal practice and keep a low profile. Yeah, exactly. They're a very easy read, but they're beautifully written, and He's an incredibly sympathetic character, and I really highly recommend that for lockdown because they're incredibly long. Each book is really fat, and it's a series, so if you like the first one, you can probably keep reading until, until we come out in December, or whenever it may be. Or whenever it may be. I was going to actually ask you then which books you'd recommend, but they sound great for people to just kind of, a little bit of escapism as well, because it's not based now. I find it really hard, I know it sounds really bizarre, but when I read books at the moment that are set in the current day, and especially when I'm watching programs that, you know, have been released in 2020, I'm going, "How can they sit this close in a bar? Why are they embracing? Why is that person just shook his hand? You're not allowed to do that!" And I actually find I find myself, it takes just a couple of seconds, and I just then go, "Oh yeah, that's okay." But you find it really, I don't know whether you've experienced this while reading books and watching TV in lockdown, but just people sitting in bars. I know, I know, or getting onto aeroplanes and having parties, having parties. I mean, I think, "Oh my God." 'You're not allowed to do that, you're reminding me of what I'm not allowed to do anymore.' I know. And also I think that is one of the, one of the real challenges of staying mentally well in lockdown is that we weren't meant to live like this, you know, everybody needs lots of social interaction, well most people need a lot of social interaction, not just with your friends and family but those little micro interactions you have, saying hello to a neighbour, you know, picking something up from the greengrocers, or going to chat, having time to chat to people in shops, or— and just not having that, I think, is a real challenge. And I'm lucky in that I have got my family here, and we've got Zoom, I have a Zoom a couple of times a week with a group of girlfriends, and we can talk on the phone. But for people who are living alone, I think it's really, really difficult. Yeah, definitely, which is why I do appreciate that there's slightly different rules for those who do live completely on their own. They are allowed to bubble up with another household. Yeah. And you must— I'm sure having a puppy in the household, must keep you entertained anyway, but when you go out, you must have so many people wanting to try to speak to you and play with your dog at a 2-meter distance, obviously. It's like being with a film star. Yeah, we got a fan club yesterday, about 8 children all around who wanted to pet her. And I know it's lovely, and that sort of morning greeting you get when you come down, this is a little wriggling body sort of jumping all over you who absolutely adores you and really, really lifts your spirits. But I would say, can I give you another, just for people listening, my favorite tip at the moment, which comes from Japan. If it's possible, the Japanese are huge fans of what they call forest baths, and it's actually prescribed in Japan as a treatment for depression. And they try to go out to a green space, even if it's a park, but ideally woodland, and just stay there for maybe a few hours, or ideally maybe a whole day, and just really connect with nature, looking up at the tree canopy, smelling the earth, looking at animals and birds. And there's quite a lot of evidence in Japan that that can, they say, fight all sorts of illnesses including anxiety and stress and really boost your immune system. And apparently it's being considered by GPs now as part of what they call social prescribing, along with things like gardening and befriending. But just slow down and connect with nature if you possibly can. Don't have to take your clothes off though, it's not a bath in that sense. And can I recommend possibly don't take your clothes off in a local park in London? It's very likely you will be arrested. But I think something, you know, people— I know there's a huge pandemic of insomnia as well. People have been saying that, yeah, sleep, I'm struggling really. What the, the other thing to do is as soon as you wake up to try and get outside to get some sunlight. Which triggers melanin production. And really, really get outside and do something outside— gardening, or if you're in a built-up area, maybe just walk around, go to part of your town that you've never had time to look at before. Yeah, I mean, the thing is, the idea of the forest baths, that sounds fantastic. And although it's in theory about nature, and, you know, surrounding yourself with what is good. It's also, you know, it's also to do with getting out of the four walls that you are in. And sometimes you can get trapped, you know, the, the home will— you might start associating that with being on your own and being locked in in lockdown, whereas, you know, when you're out in the open space, it is open and there is space. That is the whole idea of it. And people with dogs you know, they get to do this every day anyway as part of their practice, but people, other people sometimes don't see the need for it or don't have it into their daily routine or even a weekly routine. And the amount of people that are asking me and all my dog friends to go out for a walk at the moment for an excuse, you know, if you've got a friend with a dog, you know, that's the person you want to hang out with, isn't it? Isn't it, at the moment? Absolutely, absolutely. And there's no limit on how much exercise we can do now, which is great. And that also really lifts your spirits, I think, going out. And I try and do a really long walk every morning. I'm lucky in that I live quite near some very big green spaces, Richmond Park and Wimbledon Common. It's full of people walking dogs. But it's fantastic, it sets you up for the rest of the day and it gives me a chance to clear my mind and really helps me think. I do actually, Mondays are my— I think it's such an important day, Monday, because it kind of sets how you handle the rest of the week. And I take my dog out for a really long walk in the morning so that she's tired for when I do these shows, and then afterwards before I pick my son up from school, the other one makes his own way home, I cycle. I actually go and cycle through Richmond Park, which is just getting some outside space, and because I know that I've got to be in the office all day on Tuesday, but it makes sure that you're setting yourself up, and sometimes, you know, mental wellbeing-wise, you need to feel like you're doing something good, and reinforcing that knowledge rather than just thinking that— if you think that you haven't done anything, you already feel negative. That's true, that's true. Yeah, and Mondays are difficult for a lot of people, I know. So no, I think that is true for me too. And I've taken up cycling, which I love, although I'm a little bit intimidated by the mammals, you know, the men in lycra. Yeah, we came past you. Because I've got an old-fashioned sit-up-and-beg bike, but it's great, it's really great. I far, far prefer it. I know obviously it's better for the planet, but it's a fantastic way of getting around when we can, before the rains come, when it's not raining and snowing. Well, you should have seen the hordes on Saturday. As soon as we saw on the weather forecast that there wasn't going to be any rain between 11 and 1, the streets were full of people We're coming towards the end of today's conversation, it's gone by so quickly. I just want to highlight to our listeners, I was going to ask you about who you admire in the public eye, but you've already said, and I've actually found a fantastic article on the New York Times which I'm going to read to find, because I didn't know about this person and I'm quite intrigued to find out more. So, and I'm going to try and pronounce her name. So the article is 'Who is Svetlana Tichanovskaya. Very good, yeah, that'll do. Belarus's unlikely opposition leader. So I found that, and I think I'm really looking forward to reading about her, and thank you for highlighting that. And also, we have been talking about your 3 mental health tips, one being staying off or limiting social media as much as possible, the forest bath, and I'm pretty certain you gave a third, or are we yet to hear it? Oh, um, you've been given so much advice. No, no, no, I, I would say try and get in touch with your creative side. Um, it doesn't matter if you're good or not. You could paint, draw, um, write. Uh, it doesn't have to be good, but it should be fun. And I think it's something that we stopped doing, a lot of us. I mean, I can't paint, but I, I used to love it when I was a child. And, but then people start judging it and you just think, "Oh, well, I can't do it," forgetting that it can just be enjoyable just to do it just for itself, just for fun. And I think that's something that— or you can do it with somebody else. And I think also if you're with a family, it's fun to maybe treat it like a holiday and play games in the evening with just anything, even if it's cards or Scrabble, instead of, instead of just going on social media, interact with the people that you're living with in a new way. Or maybe you do it anyway, but I think that is a really good way of keeping happier. We've actually been doing a lot of Lego, and I'm a bit of a Lego geek when it comes to the retro stuff and anything to do with vehicles. So we built the the Charger from The Fast and the Furious last week, and that was with my eldest. And me and my youngest, we quite often do clay and baking. Oh, fabulous. Yeah, fantastic. And it's just remembering to do these other bits and pieces. But don't get me wrong, sometimes we watch telly on an evening and I've missed the whole program because I was too busy updating social media or writing the next blog or writing the next interview and whatnot. And It's just sometimes we just need to remind ourselves that we can recharge and actually be more productive if we step away from the technology. And if you have to use it, you have to use it, but go back to it after you've done something creative, as you say, because it ignites certain receptors that are going to make you produce better work anyway and help your brain to kind of focus more. And what, what I do find is the whole cathartic element of writing. And as you said, it doesn't have to be for somebody else. You don't have to worry about it, somebody else judging it, because you can unjumble the thoughts in your head. Write it down. And I'm wondering, was it quite cathartic writing this book, getting down so many different elements of what you have to endure in your job? It was, it was, it was, it was in terms of I felt very strongly, and I still do feel very strongly about the themes in the book, and revisiting my experience with the, um, with the stalker, which I'd sort of tucked away. But I think it was quite cathartic going back to that and saying, right, well, you know, it wasn't what I thought it was going to be, um, and I've come through that. Um, but I— it— yeah, and I think other people can find the same sort of cathartic experience from, from writing, even if it's keeping a journal. I think that's helpful too. Journaling— I mean, there was a book I recently actually interviewed the author, Sarah Adams, who wrote The Life Edit. It's a fantastic book that helps you journal, and it's not for somebody else to read, it's to just help organize your thoughts. We are coming to the end of today's show. I've thoroughly enjoyed having this conversation with you, Alex, and I I must recommend all of our listeners to go out and get the book The Night Lawyer. And if you want to find a nice and easy link, if you pop onto hazelbutterfield.com, I've put a review up there and it makes it nice and easy for you. Thank you so much for joining me today. Well, thank you, Hazel. I really love talking to you. I can't believe we've been talking for an hour. I know, I know. You need to get the next book out really quickly so you can come back on. Thank you. Thank you very, very much. Bye. Bye.