Get Booked – Nicola Gill, We Are Family 070621

Hello, this is Get Booked for Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station, played daily at 5 PM for WRS and Tuesdays at 4 PM for Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Now this week we have Nicolette Gill with the book We Are Family. This is a great story about looking at the struggles quite a few of us have with deciphering who we are supposed to be and how we're supposed to behave in regards to how society assumes or dictates This book tackles the very complex nature of grief and grief guilt, how we evolve as people as our needs and responsibilities change. It discusses, well, it touches on jealousy, internal conflict, how families don't naturally get on, lies, trolling, and just how much diet really matters. All of that just in one book, imagine that! Nicola, hi, how are you? I'm well, thank you, thank you for having me. You are very welcome. And so I've worked through your book and I've been on a little bit of an emotional roller coaster. It's, um, yes, it's that kind of story. Yeah, it really is, because, um, I mean, there's so much I want to talk about. And maybe, you know, before I get stuck into it, tell our listeners a little bit more about you yourself? About me? Okay, so, um, I live in London, um, I'm married, I've got 2 boys, and my day job is, uh, as a copywriter, uh, but I have wanted to be an author since I was 5 years old, um, which I know makes me sound kind of weird. Not at all. Weird kid. Um, so, um, it took me quite a while to finally get around to it. Um, but my first book was published last year, and then, uh, my second book was also published last year. So, um, I'm sure there's a buses joke there somewhere, but we won't make that one. No. Uh, so the first one was The Neighbours, wasn't it? That's right. And that was published in February of last year, and then We Are Family came out in September. And, uh, just so that all our listeners know where they can go and find out a little bit more about you, you're at nicolagill.com, aren't you? Yes, I am. Yes, I have a proper author website. It's very exciting. I mean, it's not that exciting, but you know, I've got one. Well, it is exciting. Yes. People can find out a little bit more about you. Do you know what? I was doing some research and I found some quite interesting things out about you actually, and I don't know— It's gonna be my obsession with anti-backhand gel. Do you know what? That was one of the things, and I get it, like, how can people eat on the tube? Have you seen the Netflix series A Good Place? Yes, yes, I love A Good Place. Right, so did you— do you remember the bit where they were trying to tot up why people either went into the good place or the bad place, and somebody had turned around and said, but I give to charity, I've been a great father, I've done this, I've done this, I've never broken the law, and they went, oh yeah, that's tricky, why are you in the bad place? Oh no, no, it seemed you ate an egg mayonnaise sandwich on the Underground once and that put you into the bad place. That is not okay. And I was like, yeah, quite right too. Every time. I completely get that. And I have to say, my sort of obsession with hand washing and hand gel way predates the sort of global pandemic because of course now we're all sort of obsessed with hand washing, aren't we, whether we want to be or not. But I was definitely like that before. And yeah, to me, the idea of going on the tube and and then eating something without washing your hands is just not— I couldn't do it. Yeah, I mean, it is pretty gross on there. I quite often take my dog in with me to work, and she comes into another studio that I work at. She's actually been into the Women's Radio studio in Covent Garden as well, and sometimes people look at me as if to say, "Why is your dog sitting on the seat?" And I'm like, "She's a damn sight cleaner than all of you lot!" Because it is crunchy! She is! And you said you've got two boys. How old are your boys? Well, they are astonishingly— because I think of them as my babies— but they're astonishingly 20 and 22 now. What? Sorry, yes, sorry, let me say that again. Oh really? That's good. That's pretty old, isn't it? Yeah, look, old enough to have kids that age. Thank you very much, Hazel. Yeah, no, it's amazing to me because honestly it feels It was like about 5 minutes ago since I was having a little cry because I just dropped my eldest off at big school, big boy school. Um, and here he is now. He's, um, so my oldest is, is at uni. He's, uh, studying. He's at med school, so he's studying to be a doctor. Um, and then my younger son is also at uni, and he does, um, Spanish and film. But yeah, they're quite grown up. It's weird. Oh wow. And so do you Did you have your hand washing— and I say obsession, but I use that term really loosely, but it is, that's hard with boys, isn't it? I want to stress to your listeners that I am actually quite normal. Oh, that sounds dull. Whatever normal means. Yeah. Did I have it when the boys were little? I guess I did, maybe. I guess I just always wanted them to wash their hands before eating and when they came in from being outside and stuff. But, you know, I don't think I was As I say, to me this just seems like the right thing to do. Yeah, I mean, I've always had a thing about hand washing anyway, and it's more to do with grubby fingers. I mean, you know, I've got a touch of OCD, and it's a bit of a well-known thing now that when people come into my house, when they bring their kids in— adults, I'm fine— and I'm like, wet one your hands, I saw you eat a packet of Doritos literally like 5 minutes ago, that is not coming in here. Yeah, I don't want those over my sofa. Yeah, I get that. Now the point that I was really quite surprised, and I really don't know how I feel about this, is you once turned down Christian Slater. Why would you do that? I did, I know, that's a funny thought, isn't it? So I was very young and I was out in the States and I was at a party and I had a very serious boyfriend in England. So when Christian Slater said to me, um, would you like to come to party with me? I just didn't think twice. I just said no thanks because I had a boyfriend and it just didn't seem like a— and it was only afterwards that someone said to me, you do know who that is? And it was like, yeah. So disappointed. Yeah, anyway, but there you go. I mean, he was the one who, you know, all the posters were around my bedroom when I was like 12, 13 years old. I thought, I just— everything. And I did, um, because I've always loved him to pieces, a boyfriend of mine took me to go and see him and playing the main part in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest with Josie Lawrence in the West End. And the boyfriend at the time was like, I am never taking you to watch something with Christian Slater in again. I might as well have not been here. Oh yeah, I can understand that. Well, I have to say he's pretty, pretty good looking in the flesh as well, but yeah, there you are, the decisions we make, hey? Yeah, I mean, are you still with that boyfriend? Is he now your husband? No, no, no, I'm not. But yeah. Oh, well, we all have our regrets, don't we? Yes, I shouldn't think Christian Slater is still pining after me. I should think he got over that, that knockback fairly quickly. We will never know. You know, maybe he'll write a memoir and he was like, you know. So I find out— I found out that you're annoyingly perky in the morning. Oh, God, yeah, I am. I am a real morning person. I want to go. Family mad because I just naturally wake up pretty early and I am, you know, ready to go and excited. And in fact, I do a lot of writing first thing in the morning because it's before anyone else gets up and before work and the house is quiet and I can just have a very large cup of tea and, yeah, get some writing done. But yeah, I'm a real morning person. I mean, the flip side of that, of course, is that by 10 o'clock I can bet in the evening I can barely keep my eyes open. But that's good because so many people, especially over the last, you know, 12 to 18 months, they've struggled with sleeping and insomnia and worry and everything. Yeah. And the annoying thing is, is I know that you are more productive early in the morning. I'm sure the weather is better early in the morning. You get, you get more done when there isn't everybody else awake and then you sleep better. So it kind of makes sense, but it's just, I just so struggle with it. I mean, I'm known to snooze my alarm for 2 hours. Oh really? Yeah. So are you a night owl? I don't want to be. But you are. Yeah, well no, I could probably go to bed about, I go to sleep at about 11-ish. Oh okay, okay. But I know whenever I'm like, we were talking slightly off air earlier and I was saying that I got up at 5:30 this morning, I did a boot camp, I've done the dog walk, I've done this, this, this, and I feel fantastic. I've got loads of energy. I've smashed my to-do list before 10 o'clock. Yeah. And it feels brilliant. And I know that I'll sleep well tonight. And yet tomorrow when my alarm goes off at 6 o'clock, I'm gonna snooze it. And I know I am. Yeah, I guess, I mean, you know, it's just, it's, it's, um, everyone's got a different kind of body clock, haven't they? And I mean, you know, I'm not saying that, you know, I'll, I'll never press the snooze button because occasionally, you know, you're just tired and you just need a little bit of extra rest whatever, but I just tend to be very awake first thing, but it drives everyone else in my household mad, so. Yeah, well, that, it may drive them mad, but I bet you're the one emptying the dishwasher and putting the washing on and writing books. Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all happened before they even open their eyes. So this is quite interesting because, I mean, we're going to move on to We Are Family, and the two sisters in it, they're quite polarised, Do you obviously identify with the style maven more then? Um, you know, it's a really interesting question and I've talked about this quite a lot with people and I think I'm a bit of a combination of Laura and Jess. I'm certainly not as much of a perfectionist as Jess is in any sense, so I'm probably a bit more like Laura in personality, but there's definitely elements it's just fun as a writer to be able to look at those two main characters, because obviously there's bits of them that are nothing to do with me, there's bits of them that are just them, but there is definitely bits of me in both of them. Right, so for our listeners, basically these two characters, Laura and Jess, sisters, don't really get on, they kind of polarise. Their mum dies, and their dad died 25 years earlier, And it's all to do with the grieving process and dealing with, you know, I mean, there was so much politics in families and there's always people that get on more than others and people that kind of move away. And the mother sounds like a real piece of work. She's just very self-absorbed, doesn't really— she's not— I wouldn't— she's not maternal, is she? She's just very focused on herself and her own goals. And she's definitely— again, gaslighter. Yes, yes, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think the sort of politics within a family are so fascinating to me, because, you know, you've got this sort of group of people who, in a sense, haven't really picked to live together, and, you know, they can all have different personalities, and yet there's this sort of lifelong connection that binds you all together or throws you together, however you want to look at it. And yeah, I just find it really fascinating to look at. It's— yeah, I mean, I'm the only one in my family that moved 200 miles away, and I've always felt like I didn't fit in. But I speak to my mum pretty much every single day. I probably speak to my brother about once a month, and we are so different. It is unbelievable. And I mean, he hates the fact that I moved to London. He thinks I basically deserted my northern heritage. And when we go away together on a weekend, say if it's my mom's birthday or something like that, we fight like cat and dog. We're in our 30s and 40s, and he still will make me a sausage sandwich for breakfast, even though I'm a vegetarian, and just say, oh, shut up and eat it, fathead. Sort of thing, that's just the way it is. And we do have our arguments and whatnot, but if something happens with his kids or his wife, the first person he calls is me. Yeah, yeah, I think that's really interesting, and I think that that's definitely true of the sisters in the book, is that actually they bicker a lot and there seems to be a lot of distance between them, but when the chips are down, actually they do support each other and they are there for each other. And I think that, I mean, you know, when their mum dies, because she absolutely, as you described her, is a piece of work, and I think they realize that maybe some of the distance between them was actually sort of built up by their mum playing favorites and stuff, which I think is another thing that can really happen. So I think they have to kind of redefine their relationship as adults. Well, I think especially with people like their mother, it's a bit like bullying in the playground. Sometimes certain people will kind of chum up to the bully because they just want to stay on the right side so that they're not on the receiving end of whatever diatribe they want to come out with. And that can really split other people apart. And as soon as their mum's gone, you know, slowly but surely, sometimes if you're lucky, you can realise actually you do have things in common. It was somebody else that was the problem. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I think that's exactly right. And I think, you know, their mum, I mean, their mum, you know, she's not, she's not all bad by any stretch, you know, she's got, you know, great qualities, but she definitely fuels the rivalry between the two of them. I can imagine there'd be, you know, other people around their mother going, "Oh, I love her, she just doesn't take any nonsense, she's so funny, she's da da da da da da da." But when you're actually related and you're receiving that, it's damn hurtful. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you remember, but there's a sort of scene where, you know, all the nurses who are looking after Evie, the mum, when she's unwell, they all adore adore her and they all think she's fantastic. They think she's a trooper and she's so funny, which, which, you know, she is. And actually, when her daughter goes in there and she sort of snaps at her mum, it's the nurses are looking at her thinking, you know, why are you snapping at her? She's fabulous. Yeah, well, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors, do you? I've had very similar situations and it's always— this is what I love about books like this, and although it's fiction, and even books that aren't— that are non-fiction, it's kind of opening people's minds as to what goes on behind closed doors, what has happened to people in the past, and to just judge less because you really don't know what's going on in somebody else's world. There are always two sides to the story, and in the case of We Are Family, there's about 36 sides to the story and lots of different routes, and I'm going to be very careful not to kind of ruin it for anybody that's reading it. Give it spoilers. Yeah, I kind of suspected a little bit of the ending, probably about a quarter of the way through. Yes, and I love the way it was done. I'm going to be very careful with my words now because it really does show that family is who you choose. Yes, absolutely that. Yeah, no, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think that, you know, it takes— the story takes lots of twists and turns, and what I hope is that by the end of it, the reader comes out feeling warmth towards both the sisters, really, and rooting for both of them, because They're both, you know, I think the root of both of them is good people. There's good in everybody. There are people, even people that behave appallingly, there's quite often something that's happened. Yes, exactly. To make them behave that way. But sometimes you have to move on, and sometimes it's worth trying a little bit harder. But I like it that you focus on the therapy side as well, of kind of trying to work through issues as well, which I think helps the whole Laura-Jess relationship for them to be able— because otherwise, if we keep things pent up, it always comes out somewhere, doesn't it? Yeah, 100%. And I think it's, um, sometimes it's very easy to not say something and to just, um, sort of squash things down, squash things down. But actually, um, they're, you know, even though it can be hard, sometimes having those difficult conversations really makes a difference, doesn't it? Yeah, completely. And what I found— this was part of the roller coaster for me as well. I mean, I think the way that you tackle bereavement in this book is fantastic. And the one that goes to grief counselling, Laura, is the one that was undoubtedly treated the worst by her mother. And she felt like a fraud because she shouldn't feel like she should be grieving because it's not really much of a loss when, quite frankly, any interaction with her mother always left her feeling drained or bad about herself. When in fact, when her dad, who she absolutely adored, died 25 years earlier, she kind of felt like the bereavement counseling was actually more focused on how that affected her. And the whole concept of therapy being a little bit more accessible has only really happened in the last 5 or 10 years or so. And so there's things that we, we've been burying deep down. And I'm still not even completely sure whether Laura was there more for her mum or for the death of her father in the actual bereavement group. But we sometimes feel like we don't have time to deal with grief, and it always comes out. Yeah, completely. I mean, I so agree with that. I mean, um, when, um, when my dad died, and, uh, you know, it's very, very, very close to my dad, and it was, it was a massive shock. But when he died, I, um, you know, I had two kids under five and I just didn't have, or I didn't think I had time to properly grieve. But of course you can't cheat it, it's going to catch you up sooner or later. So I think that that's there as a theme in the book. I'm conscious, by the way, that I'm sort of making it, the way I'm talking about it, I'm making it sound like it's an unremittingly sad book, and actually it's not, because it does deal with some serious— It falls out hilarious! Oh, thank you. No, it definitely is. I thought it was so incredibly funny just because it does deal with the fact that sometimes, you know, Laura's saying, "Oh, I feel like I shouldn't be here because I'm actually not," in the nicest way possible, "that bothered that she's dead because she was a nightmare." Yeah, well, I think that's the other thing that, you know, people don't talk about, is that sometimes, you know, if a relationship's been difficult, grief is actually a very complicated thing, and there's a lot of sort of guilt layered up with it and stuff, and there will be some relief. And I think that that's a tricky one, so interesting for a writer to explore. Again, I've realised that— I mean, my dad died at a similar time where my kids were similar ages to yours, and I didn't really have time to deal with it, so I kind of went, "Ah, it's horrible he's died, but, you know, I wasn't that close." And in the last year we got really close, so that means you know, it's better than what it could have been. And then I reviewed a book for Leanna Champ, How to Grieve Like a Champ, and it was talking about looking back at deaths that you hadn't actually addressed. And I was like, I can't read that page. And I was like, oh, do you know what, maybe I haven't addressed that properly. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, that's definitely my experience as well, is that, you know, as I said before, you can't cheat it. If you don't sort of deal with it head-on at the time, it there will be— it will come and get you at some point. The term I've used when making notes on this book is bittersweet. I mean, it was funny that some of the things that especially that Laura comes out with, and also sometimes we put barriers up, don't we, which makes us very inaccessible and appear to be different kind of people. And I love that as they were forced to break the barriers down between the two sisters, I thought some of the comments were just, they were hilarious and ridiculous at the same time. And like, I've seen these things happen as relationships have been repaired and people start relaxing and showing their true sides. And I must say, I felt, because I'm like, I do have a little bit of OCD, but the whole point of when Laura realized that somebody must have been secretly weeding outside her flat, Yes, yes. And she thought, has my sister been hanging out outside my house? It's just like her to do something like that. I'm that person that if I'm waiting at somebody's door and maybe they're just taking a while to come to the door or they're on the way back and there's no point going home, I weed. I do pick them up. Yeah, well, there you are then, you see, you're— that's, that's, that's, that's very Jess. She just, she wouldn't just stand there and wait because that would be a waste of time. So she's, she's— if she's waiting, she's going to do something useful and a bit of weeding. And yeah, for people who haven't read it, the two sisters are not speaking at the time, and it's just this— Laura comes back and she sees that all the weeds have grown in the garden, and she's like, "Oh, that's really weird. I feel like my sister's been here." And then she sort of almost tells herself not to be so paranoid. It can't be so. Even Jess wouldn't come around and just weed her front garden, but that's exactly what she's been doing. Yes, and then, and then on top of all that, on top of everything else that we've been talking about, then there's— we're tackling the nature of possibly single mums and making big decisions when you're dealing with grief. And all the way through the book, I had no idea. They always say don't make big decisions when you're grieving, and all the way through the book I had no idea which direction that was going to go in, and I quite liked the direction. Yeah, yeah, so that, that I think that's another thing that, that was really interesting to me is, is the fact that, that is the advice, isn't it, that to never make big decisions when you're grieving. But I think that a lot of people do, and because it's such a sort of seismic thing to happen to people, it does make them do things that they wouldn't have done before. So I think, you know, with both sisters there's a knock-on effect in their relationships, and not just with each other but with their partners as well, and their kids, and because it's such a big thing, isn't it? Oh yeah, completely. And I'm probably going to get in trouble now for saying this, but I mean, there's a lot of— I like books that make you feel like you can really relate, and to kind of talk about things that you kind of really don't like to admit to other people, but they're quite funny. We all do it whether we admit it or not, but it's that whole thing of when you're a parent of young children and some of the things that go through your head. But also it's— I mean, this couldn't have happened in the last year, but when Laura's kid was ill and it's that whole thing of, you know, you sneak a little bit of cowpoll in them and hope you can get them into school so you can get into work. Because yeah, yes, I think a lot of mums will definitely— a lot of working mums will definitely empathize with that scene. We've all been there, haven't we, where you're just lying awake in the night and you're thinking, oh my God, please let them be well enough to go to school in the morning. I mean, I've snuck a little bit of cowpoll in their orange juice in the morning just to kind of go, I think you look Finesse, where you go, "Oh!" Yeah, 100%. Thank God for cowboys. Yeah, no, the salvation of every mother out there, that's for sure. It's interesting as well though, isn't it? Because that sort of whole juxtaposition of quite sort of serious topics in some senses with, you know, jokes or things being funny. So that's something that I've been asked about quite a lot and Someone was asking me the other day, you know, if there are any subjects that I think are kind of off-limits in terms of, you know, humour, in terms of sort of trying to be sort of funny. And to me, I really relate to something that Ricky Gervais, who knows a thing or two about comedy, said about this. And he said that to him, the question of 'Are there subjects you shouldn't make jokes about?' is as daft as saying, 'Are there subjects you shouldn't talk about?' So that doesn't mean to say it's a free-for-all and you can make any kinds of jokes, but it's what you say. But there aren't subjects that are off-limits, as it were, and I tend to agree with that, actually. Yeah, it just depends. Yes, it's how you tackle it, the wording you use, and how you make people feel. But there are, you know, even in the worst times there will be humour. And I think humour is sometimes what helps us sort of deal with things and what helps us process things. So, you know, again, you know, going back to my own experience, you know, even in the sort of darkest times, whatever those were, you know, let's take, you know, my dad dying because that's, you know, we talked about bereavement and that's a theme in the book and stuff. But there were funny moments. I mean, I remember one moment at my dad's— just after my dad's funeral, where my brother and my sister and I got the giggles about something. And it was just about some really sort of silly little thing that someone had said that we knew my dad would have laughed at. And, you know, it wasn't that we weren't sad or we were devastated, but there is still humour, and that's what helps you survive, I think. But we need that, and that's why we need books like this as well, because sometimes, I mean, I have so many friends that will say, "This happened to me and it's horrible, but is it really wrong that I was kind of glad it happened?" Or, "I did this the other day, I am a terrible parent." I'm like, sweetheart, do you know how many people do this as well? You're actually normal. You would be weird if you hadn't have done that. Exactly. Perfect parents do not exist, and if they do, they're probably extremely boring people. Exactly. But that's what I like about these where they make light of like really interesting situations to kind of— it gives a little bit of warmth and makes people feel as if they're not on their own. Exactly, and it's the light and shade, isn't it? It's, you know, in life you can go, you know, very quickly from, you know, crying one minute to laughing the next, you know, all the emotions can be in one situation, if you like. Oh yeah, completely. And if you can find a way to find some light in it as well, then that's just the way forward, isn't it? It helps. It really does. And this is why, you know, especially in my intro when I said, you know, books can bring enlightenment and help us understand each other a little bit more, and, and it's, uh, it's good to kind of realize that sometimes we make mistakes and there's different ways to attack them and what can happen if you face things head-on, especially with— now I think this one's quite a topical element in the book— the trolling. Oh yes, yes, yes, of course. Because there are so many of us out there who read something and they think, "Oh, I'd love to respond with this." So can you imagine, yeah, they're sitting there in their nice big kitchen talking about, you know, how they've pre-soaked their oats, how baby Tarquin is already learning Mandarin or whatever. There is a lot of jealousy around, but it doesn't mean we— just if you don't like something that somebody's doing, stop reading it. Yeah, completely. And I think that, well, there's several things there, aren't there? So my sort of biggest rule is that, you know, I would never post something that I wouldn't say to someone's face because, you know, it's— there's a real person sitting there on the other side of that screen. And then I guess the second thing is, it sounds really obvious, but I think we do all tend to forget it, is that what you see online isn't reality because all of us, me included, you know, you— we tend to post about the good stuff, really, don't we? So when you see someone, you know, on Instagram or whatever, and they seem to have this kind of perfect life, the reality— and I think this is where you go back to the book, this is where Jessie's character is so interesting— her life from the outside seems so perfect, and even to her sister, you know, it just seems like everything's together, but actually that's not the reality. And I think that's, you know, worth remembering that everyone's got their struggles and and even if from the outside it all looks, you know, wonderful, you know, they've got their stuff too. But also sometimes people just want to put some positivity out there because it makes them feel good, and they're hoping other people will feel good as well. You know, it's completely streaming with cynicism. It's just, you know, just remember that we all have our reasons, and sometimes you're doing it because you want attention. Sometimes we're doing it just because as, you know, a little bit like with Jess, you know, style maven. It's her responsibility as an influencer to put things out there that are going to influence people, and the negativity doesn't necessarily influence people, and they're not pretty posts. Yeah, exactly. And, and have you ever heard of Andrew Shanahan, the writer? Yes. And have you read Before and After? No, I haven't. So it's brilliant, it is fantastic, but it's about like an apocalypse, a zombie apocalypse, where all these, all of a sudden something happens in the world and all these zombies like, they go around trying to kill people and they just sit there hurling abuse, and you know when they've been bitten and turned into one of these zombies because they, I mean the swearing is off the charts, which is why I love it, absolutely love it to pieces. If you're in any way not a fan of swearing, don't read the book, and I was interviewing him. Not a problem for me. No, no, I love it. The worse the better, I say. And I said to him, how did you come up with the horrific diatribe of the zombies? Because they can speak, but as soon as they're done, they're like going, I'm going to get you, I'm going to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this. But with the swearing and very, very intricate with how violent they're going to be. And I was like, where did you come up with this sort of narrative? And he said, I used to work at the Daily Mail. I just used to read the comments section. Brilliant. It's like, yeah, it's the only thing it's good for, for coming up with zombie narrative of the completely mentally ill. And I was like, yeah. I mean, the Daily Mail, it's now more comedy, isn't it, in terms of their comments section? I don't think it's even aimed to be nasty, it is just stupid, isn't it? I don't— yeah, I think so. I mean, I haven't actually— I don't think I've ever written anything for the Mail, but the odd article I've written, because I'm not a proper journalist, but I've done the odd article for papers or magazines, whatever, and one thing that my proper journalist friends taught me very early on is never, ever, ever read read below the line. Just don't look, don't go there, because it's, it's just not— it's negative energy, isn't it? People just get wrapped up in themselves. Um, but you know what, if you really want to write something nasty about some— somebody, put it in a journal and then chuck it in the fire. If you just want to get it out of your brain or whatever, and you have to be— if you really have to go down that route, write it down with a pen and paper write it down, burn it, throw it away. Nobody else has to see it. It's not necessary. It's hurtful. You don't know what that kind of response is actually, how it's going to affect somebody else. They may have 3.1 million followers and look like they're having a great time, but actually words and comments are worse than being punched in the face a lot of the time. They're very dangerous. They can cause a great deal of harm. I mean, we've seen that haven't we? There's been too many sort of, you know, tragic stories about, you know, people, you know, whose mental health has been really badly affected, even, you know, some people who've died by suicide as a result of that kind of stuff. So, you know, it is a really serious issue. Caroline Flack, for instance, I mean, everyone just saw glamorous blonde, working on all these shows, hanging out with some incredible people, and when life went rubbish for her, everyone thought she's fair game because, quite frankly, she looks strong and ballsy and whatever, and look what happened. I mean, it's— you just don't, just don't. It is, it is ridiculous, um, and incredibly dangerous, um,. And I think there needs to be situations where people who are found guilty— it's manslaughter. Yeah, no, I agree. It is terrible. It's absolutely terrible what happened there. And, you know, to so many others as well. You know, you really, you've got to, you know, have a serious word with yourself if you're piling into that kind of hate, because the assumption that someone has this perfect life and they can take it is a very very, well, it's very nice, but it's also a very dangerous one to make. Well, do you know what? I'm a people person. I do seem to speak to anybody and everybody. I'm very lucky that I've got a lot of friends, and I don't know anyone who has a perfect life. No, exactly. Regardless of how good and how funny their Instagram may possibly be. So these are all the subjects that are in We Are Family. It is fantastic. It does cover a lot. It is It is really funny, and it does kind of cut through to the core and a bit close to the bone in terms of, you know, I mean, that's what I like. I love that kind of humour as well, where you're not quite sure whether you're going to offend somebody. Yeah, yeah, yes, on the line. Yeah, I love it to pieces. And then The Neighbours as well, which is my next book, book to get stuck in with? Because this, this again is like not— it's about not judging people, isn't it? And kind of thinking outside the box and being kind of forced to have to— well, being forced to look outside the box, I guess. Yeah. So the name is, um, so it's, it's the story of, um, Ginny. And Ginny is, uh, she is 34, and she has recently broken up with her long-term boyfriend because she came home and found, uh, him in bed with her loss. So she's now single and she's jobless and she's convinced that her life can't get much worse. But actually it can, because she's yet to encounter her very prickly downstairs neighbour Cassie, who is— Cassie is an out-of-work actress who once had the world at her feet, but now it's all gone horribly wrong for Cassie and she's just had a disastrous stint on reality TV. And she's become a sort of a national hate figure. So they're kind of thrown together because Cassie is in need of a publicist and Ginny is in need of a job, but actually from that a sort of unlikely friendship develops. It's one of those ones that's going to leave you feeling a little bit warm inside, isn't it? Hopefully, hopefully, yes. Quick reminder there for all you listeners, to go and pop on to nicolagill.com, you can buy on Amazon, Waterstones, what's Hive? Oh, it's a website where you can get from sort of local independent bookshops. Oh, I like that, do you know what, that was something where as soon as the shops started opening I was like, kids, come on, let's get into the bookshop, like, oh Mum, look, it's twice the price than Amazon, it's like, I'm fed up of Amazon, let's go and buy something from shops, let's just go in and get the Yeah, I know. Well, it would be, it would be a sad old world without any bookshops in it, wouldn't it? It would. Sorry, I'm just pouring myself some water just because we— how incredibly professional is that? We were saying before we both decided that we didn't need water and then we both suddenly went, ah, wait a minute, I'm going to need water. Exactly, you're making up for your boot camp, you see. Yes, I see. I smashed boot camp this morning. Excellent, excellent. Well, I, I, I went for a run this morning, but I don't think I smashed it at all. It was rather a lackluster run. Yeah, but any run is better than no run, I guess. I've got to keep, um, well, the other reason as well that I'm drinking quite a bit of water is as soon as I finish today, so I'm going to go and give blood, and they get really funny with you if you've not drunk enough water because it doesn't get the blood pumping enough. Okay, all right, well, we don't want to be told off when we're giving blood, so, um, yeah. So you are on Twitter and Instagram as well, so people can follow you? Yes. And, uh, I want to know, what is the next book that's going to be coming out? Ah, so, um, God, I'm going to be one of those really annoying people now because it's all a bit secret at the moment. I know, I know. So I, I I guess it will be a similar kind of book to my first two books in terms of the sort of, you know, challenging relationships and perceptions of them. Yeah, exactly. You know, funny but with lots of darkness as well thrown in there. I think it's called uplit, the genre, which I always think is a fairly meaningless term, whatever it means. But anyway, that's what the publishers like to call it, uplit. But yeah, I can't say too much about it at the moment. I'm really sorry, I know that's the really boring answer, but— No, that's fine. That's why I said we've got to follow you on Twitter and Instagram to make sure that we keep up to date with what is going on. You're quite easy to find as well, aren't you? I think so, yes. I don't mean on the street, I mean on social media. Yeah, on the street I'm just hanging out, I'm there with big hat on. Uh, no, on social media I am, I am @NicolaGillAuthor on Instagram and Nicola_J_Gill on Twitter, I think. Yes, I think that's about right. Yeah. Now, are you a big reader yourself? I am an absolutely voracious reader. Yeah, I read all the time. Doesn't matter how busy I am, I have always got a book on the go. I like pretty much every genre you can think of. I never really understand when people are like, oh no, I only like thrillers, or I only like rom-coms, or I only like literary fiction. I'm like, why would you limit yourself like that? So I like, I read very broadly, very sort of Catholic tastes if you like. And yeah, I love it, absolutely love it. Reading is one of my greatest pleasures. It's just such an escape. And yeah, it's wonderful, especially, God, the last year we've had. We all need to be able to get into a fictional world now and then, don't we? Well, we do. And also we've wanted distraction, and there's been so much incredible TV, but we're all getting to that stage where you've got to level it out a little bit. You can't just watch TV all the time. But I think— You've completed Netflix. I have completed Netflix, yeah, yeah. But it's— and I know that I do watch a lot of TV. I mean, you know, proper northerner, it's Emmerdale and Coronation Street all the way. I haven't missed an episode in at least 20 years. Wow, that's proper northerner. Yeah, and obviously being— I've been down south for 19 years, so EastEnders as well. So that takes up quite a bit of time, and then obviously the whole completion of Netflix as well. When I complete Sky, I know that I've got a serious problem. You're in trouble. My real guilty pleasure TV-wise is Married at First Sight Australia, um, which I kind of hate myself for because it feels like very manipulative television, but I just cannot stop watching it. And I did laugh. I, I actually did an Instagram, um, story about it recently because I had to laugh at myself, because for someone who claims to be very busy, I did realize that I'd managed to watch 40 hours of Married at First Sight. It's easily done. So it's like, it's amazing what you can make time for when you want to. Well, my kids quite often have a go at me for not actually concentrating when we're watching something on the TV, but I'm like, but I'm blogging at the same time, I'm catching up with Instagram, I'm putting my promos out for GetBooked, I'm doing this, that, I'm answering emails, I'm making sure that they've got this ready and that ready, you know, I could cook a lot, but I always cook with my iPad and with, you know, watching the PAX that I've just finished watching and whatnot. And, you know, I go into work sometimes and they're like, how do you find time to cook for us all? I'm like, well, I was kind of reading and cooking for the kids and cleaning the kitchen and doing this at the same time. And I love it. I love the feeling you get from multitasking as well. Me too. And actually, I really I love cooking, and I find, um, I mean, not every day. Some days there's days when you just think, oh my God, I wish the dinner would just appear. Deliveroo! Exactly. But no, I, I really enjoy cooking too, and I find it really relaxing. Um, yeah, no, it's good. However, do you know, there's a program I've never watched. All my friends wax lyrically about it, and now because of Jess, I'm gonna start watching Queer Eye. Oh wow, okay, so I love it, I love it. Yeah, I mean, obviously I had to watch it as research for the book, you understand, Hazel. Of course, yeah, you had to do it. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, no, no, no, no, Jess's obsession with Queer Eye— well, Jess and Laura's obsession with Queer Eye is one that I can really relate to. It's a fabulous programme. And it's actually a really uplifting programme because even though in some ways the things that, you know, maybe they're helping people with seem to be superficial, they actually have quite a big effect on people's lives and their confidence and just how they feel about themselves, really. So yeah, no, it's a really fabulous programme. Well, I've never seen an episode, so I don't really know anything about it. I just know that I have to watch it. You do have to watch it. Yes, no, I would definitely, uh, I would definitely recommend it. Okay, well, it probably looks like, um, today the kids are gonna have the most incredible spag bowl and probably a chocolate cake for dessert then, so that I can really get cracking with Oh, okay, okay. I like your, I like your approach. I thought you're gonna say the kid's gonna have to have fish fingers because I need to just sit and watch back-to-back episodes of Queer Eye. Oh no, this is, I mean, I am a huge fan of cooking from scratch and, you know, taking food. I take food down to my friend's house and stuff, and sometimes they just send a bottle of wine round because obviously you've got to cook with wine. And I don't mean putting the red wine in with the spag bowl. I mean, like, I have a glass. I know what you mean. Yeah, I mean, I think it encourages creativity. It does encourage creativity, although I haven't tried, um, I, I don't, I wouldn't start writing with a glass of wine because I think that could be a very dangerous path to go down. I've done it a few times and then read it back a couple of days later and I've been in hysterics saying, that's not okay, but that is really funny. Who was it? What, who was There was a very famous author who said, "Write drunk, edit sober." I can't remember who it was now. I don't know, but I'm gonna write that down because I like it. But I think it could be quite dangerous, particularly as, you know, generally I think that writing advice and writing that, you know, one of the bits of advice and writing that I always have tried to stick by is to try and write something, if not every day, at least most days. You know, to keep your sort of story in your head and stuff. So yeah, you could really, you could really clock up those units of alcohol if you took that advice too seriously, couldn't you? Well, they do say that a glass of red a day is good for you. Yeah. Or something like that anyway. The antioxidants. And the polyphenols, which you can also get in dark chocolate as well. See, you know the science. Well, actually, I did a blog post on hazelbutterfield.com about 9 and a half reasons, legit reasons, to drink red wine. Excellent. Yeah, I'll go check it out. Yep, I will check that out. So we were talking about you read, so you read a lot. So is there a favourite book out there that we should, obviously on top of The Neighbours and We Are Family, is there a book you'd like to recommend Oh gosh, do you know, that's so difficult because I have read so many amazing books. I mean, not just in my lifetime, but even in the last few months I've just read so many fantastic books. There's a book by Katherine Heaney called Standard Deviation that I don't know if you've read, but I absolutely adore. I saw it, I haven't read it, but I've seen it advertised somewhere. So that's pretty fabulous. There's a book called The Smallest Man by Frances Quinn, which is incredible. Tells the story of a guy who's very small, as the title suggests, Nat Davy. What else? Thrillers I've read recently, All in Her Head by Nicci Smith. Smith is fantastic. Oh, also she's written two books actually. Look What You Made Me Do. I read that the other day, loved it. Yeah, brilliant, really pacey. Oh, The Man on the Street by Trevor Wood. Oh, he was on the show about four weeks ago. Oh, was he? Okay. So yeah, so he's on number three. Have you read just, just The Man on the Street, or have you read the other two? I have only read The Man on the Street, uh, so far. I have I just bought his second book, which is called, I think, One Way Street. Yeah. God, apologies, Trevor. One Way Street, and then there's Dead End Street, isn't there? Excellent. Thank God. Save me, Hazel. So I've only read the first one, but the others are very firmly on my to-be-read pile, which is teetering high, I might add. I've always got a huge stack of books that I want to read. So yeah. I keep them all in my bedroom so that I can kind of stare at them. Yeah, I know, me too, me too. But yes, it's, as I say, my tastes are really eclectic and I like really sort of different types of thing and I like to sort of mix it up a bit. But yeah, I know I've read some fabulous, fabulous books recently. And there's some great ones out there, especially from emerging writers as well. And yes, I just want to point out that, you know, I mean, predominantly on this show we try and look at indie or debut authors, just because there's some fantastic stuff out there, and all these people with ridiculously high followings, they're the ones that kind of people tend to hear more about, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's because they're better. Yeah, it's, it's, I think it's great that you do that and that you offer that support to authors, because it's really hard to sort of get noticed as a debut or an emerging author, because there's just so many books out there. There are, and people haven't been able to do the book tours. It's not like they could go and promote themselves in the local bookshops because they've been shut. None of that, none of that. And I think that, you know, I think that when Even though people talked about— I think there's been quite a lot in the news about how in the pandemic people were reading more and that book sales were going up and stuff, which is fantastic, that's all great news, but the one thing I would say is that actually that was people buying the books from established authors that they know already, so people like Lee Child or Marian Keyes, you know, the really, the big hitters. Or Jojo Moyes, yeah. Exactly, because they know those authors, they know those books, and I mean, they are fantastic and absolutely, you know, it's great to be going out and buying those. But what I would say is that if you were a new author, if you're a debut author last year, very, very, very hard to get any sort of notice, any attention if you like, because there just weren't any sort of platforms for people to get those really other than social media. Yeah, I mean, I have a bit of a rule at the moment that all books, whether it's the physical book or Kindle, it's from pretty much 95% debuts or indies. And then if there's a book I really want I want to read that's from somebody that's definitely possibly got a bigger following, or it's easier, it's always on Audible. So I'm not taking up my reading time, it's for when I'm walking around or going to the gym or something like that. And so that's how I kind of try to do it, because some of the newer authors, they don't get onto Audible as quickly, or they choose not to go down that because of the costs that are involved. So yeah, which is good because I read Barack Obama's book recently, 29 hours on Audible. Wow. Wow. Yeah. You're gonna have 29 hours of anyone, Barack's not a bad choice. He could have literally just sang, read out a Tesco list, or just gone, "Hi Hazel, how are you?" And I've been like, yeah, 'Keep going, another 28 hours and 59 minutes, go on, Brack, you can do this, sweetheart.' I get that. He's got a fantastic voice and I love it. I mean, he was one of these people anyway that, this is why everybody loved him, or at least most people, because he did everything with his heart and soul, and the fact that he wrote a book that long and still narrated it himself, and I'm like, yeah, I know, yeah, extraordinary. So many people in his position would have just got an actor to do that, wouldn't they? Uh, yeah, but I'm so glad that he didn't. Um, we're running out of time and I haven't even managed to ask you my two favorite questions yet. Oh, quick, quick, quick. Um, first question is, uh, somebody in the public eye, who do you think is fantastic at the moment? Uh, Marcus Rashford. Yeah, Marcus Rashford. So, I mean, obviously there's lots of people doing fantastic things, and I mean, in the last year particularly, you've got to give out a massive shout out to all the people in our fantastic NHS who are doing a wonderful job. But in the public eye, I'm going to pick Marcus Rashford because I think footballers get quite a lot of flak, but from someone at the tender age of 23 to have achieved what he achieved and get getting the government to do a U-turn, and on the free school lunches was just really, really impressive. And he didn't have to, but he still did it, and we all know why he did do it. But getting somebody who is loved by all the kids, all football fans, and actually is quite endearing to listen to as well, Using that popularity for a good cause like that is, I think, fantastic. Well done, him. Yeah, 100%. So yeah, so I'm gonna pick him. And have you read his book, or you think— I haven't read his book, actually. No, I haven't got to that one yet. But yeah, no, he's extraordinary. I mean, what he's achieved is is incredible really. And, you know, if any of us are ever in the position sort of, you know, feeling like one person can't make a difference, you know, you just have to look and think, well, actually sometimes they can. And to be honest, you don't know unless you try. Exactly, exactly. And finally, I'll see if you can squeeze this in under a minute. I like to ask about what your 3 favourite tips are on well-being, or things that just kept you going maybe through COVID, or when you're feeling like you just can't write anymore? Oh, okay, all right, let me try. So I think mine are quite boring ones really, they're quite predictable, but they are good nonetheless. So get enough sleep. I know that can be hard, but try and get enough sleep. Make sure you eat well, and I don't mean the that, you know, you can never have a doughnut. You absolutely can, but at least try and make sure that quite a high percentage of what you eat is the good stuff, you know, the fruit, the vegetables, and the stuff we need. And the other thing, and I think this is particularly— I mean, it's for everyone, but women are particularly guilty of making themselves real martyrs. I know I can do that. You've got to make time for yourself. And even however busy you are, it's not a luxury to have some time to yourself in the day. It's a necessity. Self-care is so important. If you keep on going for 12 hours without a break, about 6 hours of those would have been absolutely useless. Yeah, if you'd taken half an hour off, you could have had 5 and a half hours of extra. Exactly. Save time. Take half an hour, read a book, preferably mine. I'm only joking with the last one. I like that. Yeah, yeah, read a book, just do something for you, have a cup of tea because it's really, really important. If you don't make time for yourself, you will end up burning out and you're no good to anyone, yourself or anyone else. And if I can just point out as well that, you know, when you have a donut, it is one of your five a day because it's full of fruit. There you are, you see, you see, absolutely. It's just the lies we tell ourselves. Thank you so much, Nicola, for joining us here on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I've thoroughly loved chatting to you, and I can't wait until you can actually tell me a little bit more about the third book. Excellent, well, you'll be the first to know. Yay, that's what I wanted to hear. Thank you so much, and enjoy the rest of your day. You too, thank you very much for having me.