Get Booked – Ceril Campbell, Secrets In The Dark 140621

You are listening to Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and I love, love, love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back and let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are and what they do and what inspires them. Now, on today's show, we're going to be discussing Secrets in the Dark by Sarah O'Campbell. And Secrets in the Dark is perfect for a trip back to Chelsea in the 1970s when everything and anything fun, fashionable, and extravagant emerged. A very detailed story of how the other half lived in the achingly cool Chelsea world before Made in Chelsea came on the scene laid its version bare, full of twists and turns, friendship, supposed privilege, and triumph over adversity. A great reminder that the grass is not always greener on the other side. Something to really get stuck into, especially as the summer is hitting us. Hi, thank you for joining us. What a lovely intro, thank you for that. Oh, you are so welcome. I'm tempted to kind of read the book again, uh, while the sun's out because it's definitely a a read, wouldn't you think? Well, when you read it, I think you read my original version that I self-published in the middle of lockdown last August, and then very, very unusually, I submitted to an agent who, who they usually go no, no, no, because they've had 500 submissions of everyone who's written a book during lockdown a week. And however, my agent Judith went, um, all Oh, I like— well, after going no, no, no, she then went, actually, yes, yes, yes, I think I might have a publisher for you. And indeed she did. And Headline Accent took it and have now re-edited it. So you have probably a slightly more— I'm going to use the word PC or woke version than my original one. Which is now already on Kindle and coming out on July 8th in a paperback and also on Audible book. Oh wow! Which is really exciting. That's really— who have you got to narrate it? They chose an actress, and at this moment I can't remember her name. However, I said, please can I listen to a sample of her? Because obviously I wanted to hear how she was going to sound reading my— what I was imagining in my scribblings. And I loved her voice. I think she's Welsh. She's young, which is good because the two protagonists are both young. They're actually— when the book starts in the late '60s, but it's predominantly all the '70s through to 1980, and they're both in their 20s by the time the book ends. So she was the perfect age group, and her voice is very soft. And it drew you in. And she was also very good at changing her accent and intonations. So it drew me in and I was really excited to hear her. I'm really excited as well. I can't wait to listen because there's something about— see, I'm a fan of absolutely every style of book. Sometimes you need a paperback, sometimes you need the Kindle so you can take it anywhere and everywhere with you, and other times you just want to listen, especially with, you know, with lockdown we have been listening to more, we've been walking a lot more, and as much as I do walk around the streets reading a book, despite the fact that I might actually have a few accidents, there is something nice about kind of just listening along the way, going for a bit of a run or going to the gym and just having another way of consuming a story. And I do find it offers a different level, and it just depends on the kind of book as to which route you should take. There are so many people out there going, ah, never do Kindle, or don't know— Well, I love reading a book, whether I'm holding a book or reading it on Kindle. However, when I listened, um, to the Audible version of my book, it drew me in and what you imagine when you read became more— you could picture it more with the voice as the voice changed in a way. Obviously I imagined everything because I was writing it, but maybe someone listening can imagine more than actually reading. I just— it's just— it brings it to life, doesn't it? And I think— I think it did. A fantastic book always. I mean, I have the visions in my head, you know, of Phoebe wandering around the markets in Chelsea and trying on all the clothes. And, you know, I kind of feel like I was in some of the Bieber shops and, and whatnot. And we're going to go into that a little bit, a little bit in a bit more detail in a jiffy. Um, but you can always imagine it, but it's sometimes nice to have a kind of different perspective as well. I love, I love a book that sometimes you don't even know, you can't remember whether it was on Audible, whether you watched the film as well, or whether you just read the book, but you can't remember because your imagination just went off on a beautiful tangent. It's nice to have escapism, especially now when life is not as easy as it used to be for many people. So we all want a bit of escapism, and that was another reason I did actually write this book. I think it made me escape as much as my future readers, because I needed something during lockdown last March to actually motivate me and get me up in the morning, because I wasn't in a very good way, because I think Well, nobody knows 100%, but I certainly had something that was very similar to COVID. So, and my concentration span was no more than 15 minutes at a time. So when I was feeling better, the, to actually have a task or a challenge to wake up and get up to was really important for me. And I do have a lot of friends that say, oh, Hazel, I can't believe you read so much. I'm like, Reality sucks! We should all be reading more. And also, there's been so much that's been going on over the last 12 to 18 months. We've all been on social media, we've all been connected with tech, because we've had to for Zoom, for friends, for family, for work. And to feel connected, the constant scrolling on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, you name it, carrier pigeon, whatever, The actual process of reading the words on the book, it's been medically proven that what it does to your brain, engaging with the words on the book, it's a bit like a Ctrl+Alt+Delete. And I just think it is fantastic, and for those of you that do like reading, it is an absolute gift to be able to give your brain that kind of workout that separates you from what social media does in the opposite direction. So it's interesting when you were talking about the social media because one of my businesses before lockdown, and I suppose it still is, but it's died off a bit because I couldn't, I didn't want to do this on Zoom. So I was going into schools and organizations talking about mental health, social media, self-esteem and everything that social media does to you, what's real and what's not, what you believe and what you shouldn't believe, and what you see on social media and how it affects your mental health. However, so when we had lockdown, it made some people go on social media more because they wanted to increase their profiles, or they just kept on scrolling, and others it made a complete turn-off because it really affected their mental health. But it was very interesting before the lockdown, how people reacted of all ages from 7 upwards to school leavers, and then in companies and organizations, on how people felt about social media and how it made them feel about their own selves and their own personal body confidence and all of that side of it, and how they felt about how they appeared to other people, because so much on social media is made— making people look better with apps that they began to not believe when they looked in the mirror that they looked any good either. And it's just, it's quite disheartening, isn't it, that the— all these fantastic airbrushed images that are showing supposed— the ideal beauty, the ideal world, the amount of likes they get, it just incorrectly informs us that that is what we should be aspiring to. Just, just before we actually started this interview, I got an email from from a publicist that said, um, would you like to interview this person? And the book is called Rock Your Ugly. And I got halfway through reading the blurb about it, and it's, it's images of people who are just showing them in their reality and how they're owning who they are, what they are, and what they look like. I got halfway through it when I just responded and went, oh my God, yes, send me that book! I want to interview them immediately. And we all need to be focusing on positivity and embracing our uniqueness? Well, that's, that's what I do on my Instagram. It's— I'm in my mid-60s and everything on my Instagram is real, not filtered. And I do post everything that can hopefully inspire and motivate, uh, and empower other women to feel their best without having to resort to whether they're plastic surgery measures or, or app measures and be themselves. So today I posted one on a face, a facial I'd been having to help my skin that I've completely given up on during the last year of lockdown. And it definitely needed some help. So I show all things that are real. And in fact, next week I'm doing— I am doing a talk on a platform, a Zoom-type platform, to a media company. I can't say what it is at the moment, but I'm talking to them on empowering women in the workplace. So I'm very much for making women support— helping women to support each other, if you like, a sisterhood, and helping women feel good about themselves, which is what we want. I love that, and I want to make sure that people can find out when we can, when we can find out a little bit more about what you're up to, they can go on to sarahocampbell.com. But tell us a little bit more about you and what inspired you to write Secrets in the Dark. So I'm probably most known for having been a celebrity stylist for over 30 years, and I always worked in fashion. So I suppose I I'm slightly like Phoebe, my protagonist, my main protagonist. However, I'm going to say straight away, I am not Phoebe. I love Phoebe very much, and I might have had a privileged background, but my, my, all my anxieties and all the traumas that Phoebe faces and goes through were not mine. But I think as a writer, I suppose I can call— I never thought of myself as a writer, but I suppose I am now an author as I've written a published book that's called Women Not Believing in Themselves, isn't it? However, my childhood was very happy and I was a much wanted love child. Phoebe is not. Anyway, so going back to me and both Phoebe, I was a celebrity stylist as was Phoebe in my book. So in a way, I was— or she inspired me, or I inspired Phoebe. I was always going to write a book at some point about being a celebrity stylist, and I thought at one point it was going to be, let's call it an autobiography, but then I realized that actually I really, really didn't want to do that. And also, when I was styling celebrities, you can't talk about them because you'd never get another job. It's a bit like being a doctor. What, what stayed in the dressing room or their homes stayed in their homes. I would never talk about them because every celebrity I have ever dressed had insecurities. They hated something about themselves, about like all women do when they look in the mirror. So I was all about helping them feel positive and comfortable in whatever I was dressing them in and creating the image or the brand they wish to project for the red carpet moment or an event they were attending or an album record that they were promoting or whatever they wanted to be. So the book changed into fiction based on things I may have seen at a distance in my lifetime because the, the, my age is roughly the same age as Phoebe and Paula who are the main two girls and So when I see— I try not to look at reviews on Amazon, so I love all the positive ones. It's a bit like looking at social media, you shouldn't do, because there's always the keyboard warriors, aren't there? Oh yeah. When I see comments from some people going, well, they didn't have cappuccinos in the '70s, well, I'm sorry to the lady who wrote that, but they actually did, because I myself in the '70s worked on the King's Road as when I was still at school, and there was a café called the Picasso, which was a little Italian café, and they certainly did sell cappuccinos, and the waitresses did call "chino," and everyone wondered what it was. So that was factual. So— but you know what? I mean, it is factual. Some people just might not have known the places to go to, but who cares? It's irrelevant. Why people have to post things that are just breeding negativity and trying to put somebody down or belittle somebody. I mean, the fact is, um, you know, people like that just aren't worth even letting it take up any of your brain space whatsoever. There's— it's such an irrelevant point. Anything about one, you should never read anything about yourself because it's likely to never be good. I've learned that. Yeah. Um, it's just, um, I mean, I've had, I've had a few trolls, and I just think there is no reason ever for the comments. And do you know what, if you don't like what someone's doing, what they're posting, or the book they're writing, stop reading it, stop following them. You don't have to, you know. And let's be honest, the majority of the time when somebody does say something negative, it's because it's an issue they have. It's, it's very rarely to do with the person they're actually saying something to. This is true, they're probably having a bad moment in their own lives or angry at something or just disappointed in how their own life is turning out. Anyway, so how did I start writing this book? So probably I had a house in the Isle of Wight which was just by the sea and I had a beautiful view looking— it was a bit like a sort of New England in America clapperboard house with palm trees and things, so I had a wonderful view and I started writing the book there. And during lockdown, I looked at it again and sort of started losing the will to live because it was over 400 pages. And I found an editor who said, "Oh, I love it. I will help you, give you some pointers on just, let's call it, tidying it up." So I did, and that was how it came to be. And gave me some— and it was a learning curve. I'd never written a novel before, but I've also learnt now that I'm now writing writing the second novel, which is a standalone sequel, I've learned that actually you need some— you need a space of time every day to write that's not interrupted because you need to get into your character's heads and understand how they would think, how they'd talk, how they'd act, a bit about their backstory, how do they feel. And it's not just writing words on a page, you actually get into that person's head. So although I've written books before, they were all self-help and you didn't need it. That's purely factual and putting your facts down in order and changing around chapters. This is really different. You need to, you need your readers as well to emote with your characters and love them or hate them, but at least have some feelings for them, feel sorry for them. But actually you need to also feel happy for them as well. I don't think you want miserable, sad, you need some happiness as well, don't you, in a book? You don't just want sadness. Even if it's bittersweet. Yes, and I sort of do feel that you need some positivity at the ending in some way. I want you hanging on. One of the parts of the book, I mean, there's about 10 different stories going on in this book at the same time, I think, or 10 different kind of features, elements, and I was going to ask you how fictional it is, but you've said that it's no, it's not your life. However, you do write what you know, and it's the whole kind of the emergence of Biba and the fashion scene and the markets and just, you know, how true to life was the whole market elements and seeing some of the iconic fashionistas that were emerging in the '70s. I'm guessing some of your interactions that were written about in Secrets in the Dark are probably not too much of an escape from the truth. Am I right? Every character in the book is fictional apart from famous names that are in it who are real. So for example, when Phoebe goes to Paris, she meets a woman, an older woman called Bettina, who was the Aga Khan's the late Aga Khan, the dead one now. She was his girlfriend, and I did meet her, although I met her at a later date, and I didn't actually realize so much about her. I had to do huge amounts of research. I just met her as a friend. However, she becomes Phoebe's mentor, so she was real. What other things? I did go to Biba, I did go to the Kensington Market, so all of the descriptions were of my own memories. It did feel quite real. What other things did I do? I did live in Los Angeles and I did live in Paris, and I didn't live off the King's Road, but I did live near South Kensington, so it's not so far away. What other bits? Phoebe goes to a party in Los Angeles, which was actually Batman and Robin's house. So I actually went there. I was living with my then— my ex-husband in Los Angeles, and we actually did go to this house. We didn't go to a party there, we just went to the house. And I actually had to ring him to see how much he remembered of this place and exactly how I was describing it. Our memories were more or less the same. It's quite funny when you ask someone, isn't it, what do you remember of something when we were both in the same place. Um, so there are things that, um, were, were, were real places and people, but, um, occurrences, um, that things that happened to the characters definitely were not real. It was my imagination and Some of the extremely naughty bits were definitely from imagination and quite tricky to write during when I had builders living in my house during lockdown. Coming up at 8 o'clock in the morning to me going, where should we put this, you know, where should we put this door? And I'm writing a steamy sex scene. It doesn't really go together with builders asking you questions. I like that image actually. Sometimes I do write as well, and it's interesting, some of the things that you write and what's going on around you, then you just sit and have a little bit of a chuckle. It's definitely a steamy book, and as I said, there's lots of different elements to it. I love the fashion element. One of the parts of the book that I did love is that reminder that the grass isn't always greener, that the fact that you don't always understand what's going on in somebody else's life. And Phoebe and Paula, although they look completely polarised like they're coming from completely different worlds. You know, one would struggle to even find 50p for lunch, whereas the other one gets driven to school in a Bentley and, you know, lives in what would probably now be, you know, a £48 million house in Cadogan Square. And it's just— but the thing is, they were so similar in that it doesn't matter how much money you do or don't have, you know, it's family that matters. And both of their families cared very little. Yes, this is true. So, so Phoebe's family were social— her mother and her father really didn't want a child at all. They were social butterflies, completely wanting to live their own lives. She was really a bit of an inconvenience, and the mother was completely disinterested in her, and she was brought up by the housekeeper. A lovely Yorkshire woman who cared for her hugely, as much as she would her own daughter. She didn't have a daughter, but she would have cared her as much as if it'd been her own daughter. And Phoebe's parents just flitted around enjoying, and Phoebe's mother was someone who wished to always better herself and be upwardly mobile, let's put it that way. Although she'd married, um, someone, um, who was already quite, quite, quite up there already in the, in the, um, poshness realms, um, but she wanted to always improve her lot. And in fact, she wanted to make Phoebe, um, marry some, um, landed gentry so she could secure her, her future of, um, the, um the Phoebe's family line. However, Paula came from a council estate and a drunken father, no mother because the mother had died rather unexpectedly, and she was incredibly beautiful but really had a pretty rubbish life. And both of them really lonely and dealing with their own insecurities and loneliness and lack of friends in their own ways. Phoebe dealing with her insecurities by hiding herself away, and Paula out there and taking drugs and sleeping with anyone that was coming her way and using her female charms to better herself. However, they both came together and both had traumas that, changed their personal journey trajectories? Well, lost souls often find themselves, um, and interestingly they both had similar issues of abuse, and yet they would be perceived so differently because one is poor, um, and would be judged completely differently to those where I mean, I think it's no huge secret that if you have money, you can get away with a damn sight more. And yet, just because the abuse is done surrounded by coupes of champagne or in a country pile up north with, you know, those of the upper echelons of society, it's perceived very differently. And yet the end result is still the same as to how it affects our mental health and mental well-being. And I found it interesting, the two separate sides. And sometimes when I was reading the book, you wouldn't actually realize until, you know, 50 pages down the line, they've just had the same thing. They're going through the same ridiculousness, the same horrific things are happening to them, but they are perceived so differently because One's happening to a woman who's in the poorest part of society by a poorer person, whereas Phoebe had something happen to her, and yet because it was— how do we put it— by somebody who basically has an ego and narcissism and thinks they can get away with anything and everything, it is perceived so differently. And that is so damaging, isn't it? Oh, well, women aren't believed. I mean, it's still— that is still something that's very topical now. They are definitely more believed these days, but especially in certain social circles, in the upper classes, you know, you could be ousted for bringing shame to a particular group, and it just— it was a very dangerous game, wasn't it? I did a lot of research on coercive relationships and narcissism, and And narcissists— I'm going to make a generalization in case anyone comes back at me on this— but it seems to be that many narcissistic men, and you can be a narcissistic woman as well, usually pick men who— women who are very successful and already, and they build them up. They like them because they're successful, because it's like a game. They can build them up and like those Jenga blocks and gradually pick them apart, pull the little blocks out bit by bit, and gradually knock them down till they are in control of them. And they're always controlling— they're always controlling people. I'm not going to say controlling men because it can be a woman who is a narcissist as well. But it's— they never— they rarely pick someone who is a shrinking violet. They usually pick someone who's successful and out there in the beginning, but maybe doesn't believe that they're successful. Their own self-belief is easy to break down. Yeah, but you know why that is, don't you? Go on. Well, it's because if you are out there and successful, um, then people would think that you could never succumb to such abuse, that you're too strong, that it couldn't possibly happen to you. And yet there's the whole element of the embarrassment, whereas if they pick on somebody who, as you said, is a shrinking violet, then you would think that they are more vulnerable, and therefore you— they would be more easily believed. That's true. And, um, for Paula, who came from the wrong side of the tracks and realizes when something happens to her she really, really has to fight to, um, get her life back on track and do anything she possibly can to make her life better. She does all sorts of things to get there. And do we, as a reader, condemn her? No, I don't. I think we oddly champion her, even though they're things that we probably wouldn't do ourselves. Well, we wouldn't do ourselves, but there are many people who would, because they have had to resort to what she's done. Well, to be honest, I think Paula has, um, taken charge of her own destiny, you know, and there's the strength in that, and it's quite uplifting. However you choose to do that, it is down to the individual. And as I said, if you don't like what somebody's doing, you don't have to be around them. But I think anybody who is in control of their own destiny. And let's be honest, regardless of how it might have started off for Paula in Paris, she is by the end so— and actually pretty much halfway through, she is in control-ish. Yeah, she is, but not completely because I don't really want to say too much. I know, I was trying to— she is, but Put it this way, it's about secrets, and she's sort of in— she, even when she meets up eventually with Phoebe again, neither of them want to tell each other what's been going on in their lives. Paula, because she's actually quite— feels a bit awkward about how she's got to where she has. And Phoebe, because she lacks so much confidence, even though she's really super successful and she's gone off the rails. Neither of them want to tell the other what's been going on at all. Well, but that is it. That's such a core theme. And again, this is why I like books like this, because it brings these subjects to the fore, um, and real— and it helps the reader realize just how important, no matter how hard it is, to discuss what's going on. Otherwise you're just going to cause more confusion. Um, and it is about you know, a lot of abuser victims, uh, victims are ashamed or scared for a plethora of reasons, you know. They feel it's their fault. It's— they always feel it's their fault, that why— that's why the person's doing whatever they're doing to them, um, whether it's then in the '70s or nowadays. Definitely, it's always, um, the same that people 'Why is that person reacting in that way to me? It must be something I've done.' Okay, well, and the whole process of special coercive control and different levels of different instances of abuse, it damages your confidence. So at the one point where you need to try and get help and tell people what's going on and make positive change, it's when you're at your lowest. It's when your self-esteem is at the gutter, which is horrific, um, which is why people talk about when they get out of situations, the strength these people must have. And it's, um, I, I do think it's very important. Yes, it's an entertaining story, but it does have a lot of core themes. And this is what I love about fiction, because it entertains you but at the same time helps you understand somebody else's world. But also —just reminds the reader what is important. And sometimes when you can get stuck in a rut, you can't quite think, you know, you can't see the wood for the trees. The psychology behind how people act has fascinated me, particularly from when I was styling, whether it was celebrities or people in the public eye or just normal non-famous people. When someone said, "I've got nothing to wear," 'Come and look at my wardrobe,' or 'Come and sort my wardrobe out,' or, you know, 'Can you come round and talk to me about how to move on in my life?' It was never about actually what they asked. And I have certain amounts of underlying intuition, and I hear what people don't say to me, which is— I'm never sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing. But so a lot of these women, and actually men, who I've styled and helped and consulted with, it transpires it was about how they felt about themselves or something that had happened in their past. So for example, I was doing one woman's— she said, "Come and look through my wardrobe. I've got very few clothes, but I've got nothing to wear, and everything I put on I don't like." Anyway, so everything in her wardrobe was basically beige. And neutral. And I asked her what she did and she said, "I'm a drama teacher at school, at schools, school drama teacher." So I said, "Well, that's interesting. You are in front of people and you're acting out things and you're teaching people how to be flamboyant and loud and out there." And she said, and I said, "You're not. You're wanting to hide." And she said, "Nurse, my mother always told me that I was never going to be pretty, and in fact I was actually ugly. And so as a result, I've always wanted to hide myself in a corner. And so I said, "Well, you're dressing to hide in a corner." And she had one red dress. And I said, "When you put that red dress on, do you not feel different? Do you not feel more empowered in what you're wearing? I know you don't want to be noticed, but does it not make you feel more positive in a way?" And she said, "Yes, it does." So in fact, I put not necessarily red, but I did put color back into her wardrobe, and she understood why she had a wardrobe full of beige and grays. Because she wanted to hide. Yeah, she wanted to kind of blend in. I mean, I know if I'm feeling a little bit low within myself, the first thing I need to do is go and get my nails painted electric blue or something like that. And it just kind of— color does have an effect on us, as you will know as a stylist. And actually, um, going back to what you were saying at the beginning our chats and about how there are so many things you know about your clients, you've got to be very careful as to what you say. You're dealing with people about something that's so vulnerable, about how they appear to other people and how they feel in clothes, you know, their body image. A lot of our confidence unfortunately does come from how we feel. About ourselves and how others see us. And I've always asked clients 3 questions.. And the 3 questions are: How do you see yourself? How do you think others see you? And how would you like others to see you? And the 3 have never matched, and I hope that by the end I will have some, some of the 3 blending together, because you want someone to feel as look— feel as good as they— as others see them. And most people don't believe they look as good as others believe they are. And also, you know, when you're consulting with them, they're going to be telling you some pretty personal things about, you know, I don't like my left boob, I think my right side is a bit dodgy, I don't like the way my ears look with this kind of cut, and things like that. And they're very vulnerable elements to talk about with somebody. And once they can do that, which is very which is probably, from what I gather, is something that you're very good at. You have a— you form a different relationship with these people. Yeah, I know I will never judge them. I'm literally there to listen and listen to everything they say and don't say, and then offer them solutions. They don't have to do what I say, but if they grab a little tiny something from it, then all being good, I do— I help women, I help teenagers, I help women of all ages, whatever they've been going through, whether it's menopause, divorce, weight loss, any— anything. And I also help transgender men into women to blend in and understand how to blend in and not be noticed by how they act and dress and be, let's call it, womanly, but without looking like a pastiche of how they believe a woman should look. Wow, you must get such joy in giving people the opportunity to feel confident. I really enjoy changing someone's life for the better and seeing such joy in their face when they see something they couldn't ever believe they could have achieved themselves on their own. I have actually helped two young 20-year-olds, young boys into girls, where— whose mothers and families were heavily involved in it, and the joy in this— I know there's many people who feel that this is something that is not something they want to know about, but when you see the joy in this young person's face of seeing the person they always imagined themselves to be, that they were in the wrong body or the wrong, you know, what they saw in the mirror isn't what they wanted to see, and suddenly seeing something that they never believed they could be, I think is fantastic. And also whether it's— even if it's an older woman who never, you know, felt she'd let herself go and lost herself, and suddenly seeing the person that she used to see in the mirror when she was younger— I'm not saying I've transformed them to be 20 years younger, but certainly made the best of how they are now— it's really satisfying. I bet. And I think that actually moves it on quite nicely to the next section where, you know, I do like to ask my guests here for Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station, is what would be your 3 tips on helping people achieve their best mental well-being? So firstly, especially during lockdown, this was really important to me, was when I woke up each morning and really the, the horizon seemed pretty bleak I needed to turn my mindset around, and I've always tried to help my clients turn their mindset around. So I created a gratitude list every morning that it could be anything— thankfulness for my, my children, thankfulness for looking at a— at the trees and the flowers and the birds. It could be anything, but there had to be a minimum of 3 things I felt gratitude for every morning. And I really think for anybody who has low moments or wakes up in the morning thinking, how do I get out of bed? If you create positivity, positivity and good things will come at you. I don't think good things come at you when you're in a negative state of mind. You have to attract— positivity attracts positivity and good things in your mind will attract better things. I like that because it's also— it's bringing into your consciousness things that you are happy with. And, and it's well known, it's the law of attraction, isn't it? If you're looking for smiley faces, that is all you'll see. If you're looking for people who are being judgmental, that is what you will always see. So the more positivity you try and— the more positive mindset you try and engage with, that is what you will draw in. Yeah, and generate it for both yourself and others around you. And second tip on well-being would be to try to— try, I'm going to use the word try— to eat healthily. And I'm not saying, you know, cut out a chip or two. I'm saying keep away as much as you can from all white processed foods that give you an instant burst of energy but actually give you a very swift comedown again. And you actually— and even doctors and specialists all agree that your immunity is often the best when you have good gut health, which just means you have good bacteria bubbling away in your— if that's the right word, bubbling— in your gut from eating fermented foods before you eat and healthy Healthy, if you can, as much as you can, organic foods. I'm not, I'm not advocating being vegan or vegetarian, whatever is whatever floats your boat, but healthy foods as much as you can, as opposed to processed ready meals. Do you know what, it's interesting what you said, Bubbling, because I mean, I'm a huge fan of gut health. I do have IBS, and so I'm very cautious of what I consume. And yeah, I have bad days days as well. But I do love my kombucha and my, um, I do have my apple cider vinegars, and it's like I can feel it bubbling in my gut in a really positive way. So I love it that you use the term bubbling because it feels like it's going, thank you, Kumi, I appreciated that. It's true. And there's all the things that you can buy in supermarkets now, from kefir to sauerkraut, um, Yes, some of it is hype because it's brands, you know, that's saying that you— this will do this for you. But if you find the really good brands that have fermented their foods properly and you are eating, you know, healthy fresh food, home-cooked as much as you can, then, you know, it's good, better for you. And in fact, you will be more likely to remain healthier. Do you know what? It's— it can be a downward spiral, but it can also be an upward curve as well, because the more good food you have, the more energy you have, the more you're encouraged to carry on doing it. And it's like, the worse you feel, the more crap you eat, because you need that instant hit, and you haven't got the energy to kind of see beyond possibly just getting that very quick fix. And, you know, it's— and we're addicted. All of the bad foods are so full of chemicals that are there to make us want more and more. And it is an addiction. So the more you move away from it, the easier it is and the better you feel. And that— you want to be addicted to feeling better, not addicted to the, the actual chemicals that are in, you know, certain fast foods and certain white processed foods, as you were mentioning earlier? They are actually manufactured to appeal to— there's a sensor in your body that will actually crave more, whether it's a chocolate cake or a fast food crisp. I can't use the brands, but you know, they're specifically manufactured to make you want want more and more and more and not be able to hold back. I did do a nutrition degree to actually understand more about food, which gave me big insights into how your body works. And a lot of people, when I've also looked in their fridges, believe they're eating healthy food. And this is not where I was going in our conversations, but we've seen your vision that— and they have full of low-fat foods in their fridge and Also gluten-free, and if you look at the ingredients of low-fat foods, they— your body actually needs good fats to store, to make you feel fuller longer, firstly, and your organs need good fats. Not to eat permanently low-fat, it actually makes you fatter. And secondly, if you're having a lot of the gluten-free processed ready meals and foods have so many additional things added to them to make them taste good good, or to bulk them out, often with more sugars, that, um, they're worse for you. Do you know what? I had a friend the other day who said she was on a diet and she was eating this diet something or other, and I just said— and she's like, I don't understand why I'm not losing weight and I just don't feel any better. And I said, because you're not eating the foods that nourish your body, so your body's actually not producing what it needs to be healthy. You're not giving it the proper energy you need. You're feeling lethargic because you're You're not putting good stuff in your body. You're better putting more calories in your body, but good calories to actually help and aid the correct function of your system. This is why a lot of those— I'm going to be careful what I say here, but the diet clubs or the huge diet companies are so successful because people on a diet don't last and they always revert back to the diet again because the weight they lost goes on plus. You need to find a way to live and not— and still indulge yourself, still have the treats that you enjoy, but not on a daily basis, but to, you know, have them when you feel like it, but also live healthily at the same time. Not perpetually deny yourself. If you deny yourself anything, you want more of it, don't you, when you, you crave it? Yeah, I mean, I'm a huge fan of, you know, instead of just making huge, incredible changes, cut out the white bread, go to wholemeal, get used to it. Next thing you do, make sure that you're cutting out something else and you're supplementing with something else. Don't just do it all at once because then you feel like you're punishing yourself. Do it Do it gradually, before you know it, you won't even notice any difference. And then, then the whole idea of eating some sort of terribly white carb-based meal will eventually just, it won't even be on your radar. Just do it subtly and do it healthily rather than shocking your system and making it wonder what the hell's happened to it. This is all very true. And I realized that obviously I took over then on your point number 2. Do you want a third one? Yeah, why not? And the third one is that we all need to go out, and in fact, probably most of us have been, go out in some way and do some exercise, even if it's just a 5-minute walk, a 10-minute walk, and look at the sky and appreciate what's around us. And I think that hugely helps mental health, but also it's proven that 20 minutes exercise a day, whether it's walking or whatever, you know, you choose to do, can improve your whole body health, your mental health, and indeed as you get older, if you do weight-bearing exercise, i.e., walking or something that, you know, carries your body weight, you— your bone density stays better, as good as it can be, as you grow old. Am I explained what I meant there? You have, no, completely. We did speak very briefly on the phone this morning before we started our chat, and I was out on my morning walk. And you know what, the days I get chance to go out on a really nice long morning walk where I'm taking in very lucky that I live on the river. Um, it makes my day, you know, it gives me that boost where, you know, I can take on— if something rubbish was to happen, I'd be a lot more equipped to do it because I'd, I'd taken in some positivity. And the lights and the sounds and the, the beautiful elements of nature, it does, it does put you in the right frame of mind, and it gives you more energy and strength to take on whatever the day will hold for you. And especially when I do my shows for Get Booked, I always have a walk just before, predominantly to knacker out the dog so that she doesn't come in and go, "Mom, mom, I want some attention." But it just boosts me, and it just, it really switches my mindset. So I love all your tips. I think they're fantastic. Fantastic. And I do most of them and I think they're fantastic. Great for the listeners. I hope they enjoy them as much as you do. I was going to ask the 20-minute thing. You don't need to do more than 20 minutes. You can do HIIT, you know, as in high-intensity workout, for literally 15 minutes if you wish and that could be enough for the day. You don't need to spend an hour sweating in the gym unless it makes, unless that's that's what makes you feel mentally good. It's not necessary. You can do a short burst of something, something that is positive and makes you feel good afterwards. It doesn't actually make you lose weight. It might tone you, it can tone you, but it doesn't make you lose weight. Eating reasonable amounts of food and not bingeing, picking in between meals is what puts on the weight, and sitting there in front of the TV, as in fact I've done through a lot of lockdown, going back and having a perm open mouth in front of the fridge. It was like my— my mouth couldn't stop craving anything food-wise, and even if the fridge had nothing interesting in it, I'd still find something. So, um, yes, I had to get out of that mode, and I'm sure many people did. I'm still trying to get out of that mode, to be fair. Yeah, I am still doing it a little bit, and I'm still kind of struggling to get back into the whole kind of going to the gym 5 times a week and whatnot. But what I do love about— and one of the main reasons that I ask all the guests on the show about their 3 tips on mental well-being and what works for them— is to kind of give people different options. The power of knowing what puts you in the right mindset is invaluable. And actually, if you are doing something that makes you feel better about yourself, you can lose weight because of the elements of cortisol. Cortisol sits there like a beer belly sometimes if you are unhappy or stressed. And the more you surround yourself with what makes you happier, the better you will look and feel. Um, this is, this is all very true, and you do— but everything for each person, something different works. So it's no point trying to create something that is not going to fit into your lifestyle. So it has to be something that works for how you live, for your family, and that is easy, that isn't, "Oh God, I've got to do this now and it's like an hour out of my day and how do I do this and how do I fit it around?" It has to be something that brings you joy. I do think you have to do something for yourself every day that brings you some sort of joy, even if it's just spending 5 minutes on your own away from anyone that annoys you, for Oh, again, as I say, knowing what you need. Or if you live on your own, then it's your 5 minutes of joy of what, you know, whether it's interacting with another human, whether it's a phone call, not a text, seeing someone, or it could be anything. But, you know, it's something that gives you some positivity and joy in that day. And I've noticed we're running out of time. And what I would like to know, especially because we were talking about it earlier, on, you know, social media and the people out there that possibly can suck the energy from you and they're kind of the things that people can put on social media. I'm a huge fan of following the right people that kind of lift you. And what I do like to ask my guests is, is there anybody out there in the public eye that you admire? And they don't have to be, you know, people on Instagram. They can be politicians, or presenters or anybody that people can consume what they have to say and it's just positivity and it's good and it really does knock it out of the park. So I had to— you did ask me this before we started and thank goodness you did because I really had to think about this very hard. So I don't follow anyone, I mean I follow people on Instagram but it's not because I particularly necessarily admire them, I'm sort of just interested in what they do. So people I admire— so I admire the Queen because she literally manages to keep a brave face and whatever happens to her, she sort of rises above it, and which I think is a pretty extraordinary thing to be able to do and hide. I don't think it's necessarily good to hide your emotions, but publicly she hides her emotions. I have no idea what's going on inside Buckingham Palace or wherever she is, but so I do admire her, and I think anyone of that generation and era is to be admired because they've been through so much more than any of the young people. I sound like I'm really old. Any of the young people nowadays, I admire my father particularly because of everything. He would be 100 and something now if he was still alive. So all of that generation I admire. Zara Phillips I admire because she was born a royal but she has been a serious— and I styled her and so I met her, I met her mother Princess Anne and I met all her family and for someone who's been raised in such a privileged position she has done so successfully and remained so grounded and normal. I think she is to be hugely admired. Another celebrity I have styled. I did style on a regular basis back in the day was Dame Darcey Russell. Again, someone who's incredibly normal, grounded, super successful prima ballerina of the Royal Ballet and remained completely unspoiled, normal and lovely person. Dame Judi Dench as an older actress, um, not just going blind, but she still will act. She's embraced social media to do with her kids. She does TikTok. I think she's completely wonderful and funny. And finally, one of the lockdown Netflix series I was watching was Grace and Frankie with Jane Fonda, and I admire Jane Fonda as someone aged 84 who, yes, she's had huge amounts of help, let's say, but my God, she looks amazing both in her body and her face. And if I look like that when I'm 84, even with as much help as she's had, I would be bowing down to the plastic surgeon who created my face. But she's incredible with joie de vivre, life, and she was the person who first started all those aerobic classes that when— actually, I did go to when I lived in Los Angeles in the '80s. And I think she's incredible. Do you know what? It's obviously because Grace and Frankie has a slightly older cast, they've had to not produce the next and final series of Grace and Frankie just yet, and it's killing me. I want to— I know they're coming back for one more season, and I just want it to happen because I love it. It is ridiculous, it is clever, and it's challenging perceptions as well. And all the things they talk about are things that us girls of all ages talk about, whether it's— well, I'm just gonna say all the things they talk about as girls we do talk about and embrace and compare notes. And of all ages, I am going to repeat that, whatever age, however old you get, your thoughts don't change. But maybe people don't think we talk about them. Well, I mean, some people don't, but, you know, I try and find people who do want to talk about these things. And I must say, I love Grace and Frankie, and I could probably do another hour talking about Grace and Frankie just because I love the fact that they're 80-plus and they are still making mistakes, smashing it out the park, being hilarious, starting new relationships, you know. Age is just a number. But we can't talk about it anymore because we've come to the end of the show. And I must say, thank you so much for joining me here on Get Booked. I've loved talking to you about Secrets in the Dark, and best of luck with the re-release in July. July, July the 8th for the paperback and the Audible, and you can already buy the Kindle now on all places that you can buy um, ebooks. Go and buy it. I mean, it's about 36 different stories in one, and it's definitely a great book for a great summer read. Thank you so much for joining us here, and hopefully when you release the next book, you'll come back on the show. Thank you so much. I'd love talking to you, Hazel. Thanks. Thank you. Have a fabulous day.