Hello and welcome to Women’s Radio Station. I’m Dr Annette Greenwood, life coach and author. And on today’s show, Dr Annette Talks, we are opening up the topic about creative writing and the benefits on mental health.

My lovely guest today is Emma McKenzie, who, at the age of 18, went to university to study to become an occupational therapist. However, she had always had a passion for creative writing and knew that one day she would pursue this dream. In 2014, she had the opportunity to lead a leadership role in the NHS to work for an innovative project called Converge at Yorkton John University.

What should have been a resignation turned into a secondment. Taking a leap into a more creative career pathway, Emma fulfilled her dream of completing an MA in creative writing, which she completed in 2018. Emma now teaches creative writing both for the Field Study Council and as a freelance teacher.

She has worked extensively as a tutor using creative writing to connect people to nature as part of an eco-therapy project and is currently studying for a practice-led PhD in humanity creative writing. What an absolutely fabulous bio. Welcome, Emma.

What a diverse career you’ve got. How are you today? Hi, Annette. Yeah, I’m very good to thank you and thank you for the introduction.

Wow, it’s amazing. I mean, so much, you know, from the age of 18, right through to what you’re doing now. It is such a diverse career from being an OT in the NHS to a freelance teacher.

So do you want to share with us how that passion grew, how it started, or why is creativity so important to recovery from mental health? Yeah. So in terms of my own journey, I started creative writing at the age of six when we went through a difficult life experience and moved overnight to a little village on the northeast coast. And everything was very, yeah, discombobulating, for want of a better word.

And I picked up a little journal and just started writing and I’ve carried on the practice kind of ever since. So when I got to 18, I would have loved to have gone and completed a degree in creative writing, but there was only one around that I could find at that time. And I didn’t feel ready to move a long, long way away from home.

And then my mum had heard about occupational therapy back in the 60s when it was more arts based in hospitals and said, why don’t you go and do that? Because it’s creativity in hospitals. So I applied to get in at the last minute and did so and started my career in occupational therapy. But it was a bit of a shock to the system because it’s way beyond creativity.

OTs work in physical and mental health. And we have to learn anatomy and physiology. So it was a lot different to what I expected.

But over the years, I’ve managed to focus my career specifically on mental health and bring creativity back into that journey. And I think for me, creativity is crucial to mental health and well-being because creativity is wrapped up in a well-being and core. And I don’t think we have enough language for that in our culture.

And do you think that there’s still a stigma around? Isn’t there about well-being, mental health and creativity that it’s still not seen as quite mainstream yet, is it? There’s still that old fashioned view of how mental health should be. However, I am sort of encouraged now by things I’m hearing, like the kind of things you do at Converge and how you are supporting people. But one of the things I wanted to say is I love that word, discombobulating.

It all sounds like it all went discombobulated. And at six years old as well, to be starting to journal, that is a huge lifelong passion that Emma, isn’t it? It’s not just something that you’ve done for five minutes. No, one day my poor children are going to find my wealth of journals through all these years.

I’m now into my 40s, so I don’t know what they’re going to do with them, but that will be up to them. But yeah, it has been a lifelong journey. And I think creative writing particularly lends itself really well to reflection and understanding and exploring different perceptions and things that we experience in the world.

And that’s how I’ve personally always used it. And it’s been really, really helpful. And going back to what you’re saying about mental health and creativity, there’s been so much amazing work done to reduce the stigma around mental health.

But there’s still an underlying fear in our culture. And this was really highlighted to me a few weeks ago when I did a lecture for some MAOT students at York St John University. And we looked at linking mental health and wellbeing to our emotional health and how often mental health is linked to trauma and life experiences.

And I took them through that journey, imagine if this thing had happened to you and you’re undergoing all this stress, what would you do? And they said I’d call a friend, I’d cuddle my dog, I’d ring my mum, I’d go out and get some fresh air, all these lovely things they would do to help their mental health. But I said to them, what if it had reached crisis point and you actually had to need a clinical treatment? And I said to you, you have a health professional on the way, they’re going to come and take you to a hospital and they’ll keep you there until you’re deemed fit and well enough to be out in the community. And the shock across the group was really fascinating.

They all said, oh no, I wouldn’t want to do that. I’d be terrified. One girl said, I think I might run out of the room right now.

And I said, OK, how about if you just collapsed with a heart attack and I told you a paramedic was on the way to take you to hospital to keep you there until you’re deemed fit to be well enough to be in the community. And they all said, oh yeah, we’d willingly go. And so I think in our culture there’s this unconscious kind of fear still attached to mental health.

And we don’t have a language for it and we don’t have a language for our inner core and spirit and what makes us feel well. I’m always saying to the students, it’s fascinating that we have all these gyms for physical health and we’re encouraged to spend 60 pounds a month and go run on a running machine and all the rest of it. Why don’t we have gyms for the spirit and the mind where we’re encouraged to go and be creative, to have a counseling session, to do some relaxation? So I think we don’t talk about that side of things.

And as someone who is intrinsically, I think creativity just runs through my core. It’s not seen in the same way. For me, being creative is essential as for another person going to, I don’t know, watch a football match every weekend.

But we don’t have as many avenues for that that are just accessible. It’s often, unless you’re publishable or gallery worthy, it’s kind of dismissed in the arts when there’s actually so much of the arts that are brilliant for sharing and brilliant for connecting with other people. So, yeah, I think it needs to be promoted way more.

I know I agree and I’m encouraged by what you’re saying because we both know we’ve both got backgrounds in coaching and people and those kind of things. And one of the things to me in my own experience that works for me is the meditation, being in nature, practicing Tai Chi, Qigong, all those things that seemed a little bit every fairy, maybe a little bit tree huggy to people years ago. But it is, isn’t it? And having, I’ve just spent a weekend away a few weeks ago on a real accessing retreat.

And that was lovely. There was Gong meditation. There was all those kind of things that I find nurturing.

Now that might not work for somebody else. But I do believe that we need to introduce these core principles into everyday life. And like you’re saying, in the mental health side of things, if somebody, the idea, and this is what happened years ago, isn’t it, Emma? People were taken into mental institutions and they were locked away until deemed fit to come out.

There was no holistic mind, body and spirit connections. You would have been deemed as absolutely wacky, wouldn’t you? Whereas now it’s normal, it’s quite natural. And that’s what we are.

We are mind, body and spirit. We’re not just skin and bones and flesh as that whole thing together. We’ve been able to tap into that in a spiritual side, if you like, doing something through creative writing.

Because it does make you in the moment, doesn’t it, Emma? It does make you focus. Absolutely. And I think I’m going to surprise you now because, yeah, I think a lot of the language we have and as a writer, I find this really interesting.

You know, four things to do with the spirit are often seen as wacky and alternative. And people get very afraid of that if it’s not within their normal remake. And I’m going to surprise you because I’m actually not a huge fan of things like mindfulness.

My mind is very, very busy and active. I need to be focused. I like to have purpose.

I guess that comes with my roots as an occupational therapist. So for me, creative arts like writing give me a purpose and a connection. They anchor that creative activity and bring it back into kind of everyday life situations.

But people are kind of it seems frightened of the unknown. And I think the medical model has really done a huge disservice to mental health. Because when we’re mentally unwell, it’s often our core that’s been shaken and our spirit.

And the things that make us feel good inside are the things that make us tick. So, you know, relationships and having a clear identity, having a sense of belonging, having a sense of connection. When you go into a mental health ward, you’re in a clinical environment.

And there has been a lot of good work done, but there’s still a long way to go. You know, you’re isolated from your local community, you’re isolated from your usual relationships, you’re disorientated. And then also, you know, those environments, there’s nothing that shows who you are and what makes you tick in your life.

There’s none of your personal belongings. And the staff are encouraged to dress either in a uniform or, you know, in a modest kind of way that doesn’t show anything of their identity, you know, in a clinical kind of setting. So it’s difficult to make that connection with others because everything’s been stripped right back to kind of a clinical environment.

And I think that’s why I’ve been so inspired by the work I’ve been able to do at the university. As to we bring people in from the community to come and do taster courses that are led by our students. So instead of framing someone through a mental health narrative, we’re able to kind of say, okay, you’ve had this experience and yet that’s really, really difficult.

But what else is there for you and what kind of things you’re interested in? And we’re able to just treat people like human beings, we’re able to connect on an individual level. They see the type of person I am and we can share interests and passions like art and creative writing or social sciences, whatever it might be. And, you know, we look at that whole picture of who someone is in the world and what makes them tick.

And that to me has been life changing, being able to do that with people and see them spread their wings and take their journey to who they were meant to be. Had they not been kind of stopped in their tracks by a mental health experience. And that’s just an amazing way for you to put it.

And I say surprise, I’m surprised. Again, I’m encouraged because when you’re talking about the mindfulness aspect, because when I first had mental health problems all those years ago, I tried traditional counseling and things. And I’m sharing this.

So anybody listening, there is more than one way. And it didn’t work for me. And it wasn’t until I came across the Zen Buddhism path that that worked for me, that changed things immensely.

And my teacher, who I’ve had for 20 years, he said mindfulness is just so overrated. This is not what the real Buddhism and the real getting to the heart of things and the real, like you say, working with the emotional side and the spiritual side is all about. It’s not about how mindfulness is portrayed now.

But I guess that’s one way that or one angle, isn’t it, where it’s been used in society now to promote the benefits of. But I love what you say, because for you, this is a passion, a purpose. It’s more than a job, isn’t it? It’s more than a career and it’s obviously shaped your life.

It absolutely has. And I think, you know, I think it’s all about finding for an individual what works for them. For me, it’s been creative writing.

It’s allowed me this fantastic connection. It’s my passion. So I love it.

So the people are inspired when I talk about it. But, you know, for someone else, it might be mindfulness. It might be football.

It could be, you know, something studying mathematics. Who knows, you know, some things that don’t make me tick, but inspire them. So I think it’s about celebrating individuality and, yeah, connecting outwards.

And I’m really looking at what’s at the core, what ingredients make someone who they are. And, you know, if I was in a hospital, the things that I would miss are my cats. I’m an absolute cat fanatic and my dog.

Pets are really important to me in terms of grounding and routine. The clothes that I wear are important in terms of like expressing myself as an individual and my jewelry, you know, in terms of like a visual communication about who I am and where I feel my place is in the world. And then for myself, I spend a lot of time out in nature.

I have a big allotment plot. And that’s been incredibly important to me. So disconnected from those things.

And of course, the absolute key things, my children and my husband, you know, would be really, really difficult. So I think, yeah, there’s a long way to go in terms of re-looking at things and seeing how as a society we reconnect. And another thing on the mindfulness front, I think often things like mindfulness are rolled out as, you know, you’re very stressed at work, practice and mindfulness.

I’ve seen it in the NHS where we’ve had sessions for staff who were burnt out and stressed. And I’m thinking, you know, it’s great that we’re trying to do something to support the staff. But actually, where’s that burnout coming from in the first place? I think there’s something around in culture.

We’re so pressed all the time now that it’s perhaps not about being mindful, but about, well, it is being mindful, but being mindful about what we’re doing in the first place, perhaps who wouldn’t need that, our session during deep relaxation, if actually our workload wasn’t as high, if we were listening to what’s going on, if we weren’t, you know, having to push our children into childcare and before and after school clubs because we’re expected in all hours or we can’t afford to live. So there’s something about Western culture and that immense pressure and the pressures of modern life, you know, since the internet and phones around, it’s fantastic. But we’re also on an invisible leash to the workplace all the time and it’s really hard to switch off from that.

So I think there’s something wider that needs to be looked at in terms of that work-life balance. And again, it comes back to valuing the core and the spirit and taking as much care of our inner wellbeing as we do for our physical wellbeing. And again, I love that what you said about the ingredients of the person and what makes you an individual and the spending time in nature, because I find it really is relaxing and you’re connecting, but something there you hit on which is really important is about, you know, the burnout and it’s great to offer your staff, isn’t it, at work.

Let’s do an hour’s meditation every week or something like that. But it’s not getting to the root of the problem, is it, about, like you said, the additional pressure. And as a mum, I mean, you’re a working mum.

I don’t know how old your children are, but there is that thing about being the perfect mother, having to be a perfect employee as well, being a perfect wife if you’re married or a partner. And then somewhere in there, you’re managing to take care of yourself. It’s all about the pressure of modern living, as you say.

But if we get caught up in that, and in some ways we have to win our jobs, don’t we? It’s easy to get caught up in it and allow the people we work for to keep asking for more and more. And it seems to me at the moment, I mean, I’m not going to get into this side of it unless you want to, but it seems to me at the moment that the NHS is one of them, others are now people standing up and taking a stand. It’s not just about the finances people are striking.

It’s about other things, isn’t it? It’s about quality of life, surely. Absolutely. And yeah, I think it goes across our culture.

And I think, well, to link it back to creative writing, actually, one of the most exciting and important things that I ever did in my career was my final dissertation in my degree in occupational therapy when my tutor, who happens to be the director of convert, who I stayed in touch with, allowed me to do a qualitative study linking into my passion with writing. And I did a project looking at the way people who’ve been through bereavement kind of have used writing to kind of help process and deal with that loss. I looked at three memoirs around bereavement experiences and kind of studied them.

And everyone was saying to me at the time, oh, my goodness, Emma, that is such a morbid and depressing thing to do. Why on earth would you choose to do that? But it was actually the best thing and the most inspiring thing I’ve ever done in my life, because looking at bereavement through the, you know, through the writing and looking at other people’s experiences through literature really brought home to me how precious life is and that we never know what’s around the corner for us, you know, when things are going to be taken away. And, you know, it’s actually a very positive thing.

Again, we’re very divorced from death in our culture. It’s been medicalised. It’s seen as a medical failing rather than a natural process.

So going on that journey at 21 and kind of doing this study really made me think about what’s important in the world. And we place so much pressure and emphasis on material value and having the next thing. And I thought, hang on a minute, I don’t want to get to the age of 80 and kind of look back and just slogged my guts out to kind of have all these things, but actually not been present for my children, for my family to actually do the things I want to do.

So my husband and I, it won’t be for everybody, have made a conscious decision to actually live with less, live in a very humble house, probably compared to what we could have, but to actually work less hours, but be rich in time and rich in experiences in terms of creativity and doing things and also to be as present as we possibly can for our children. And I completely appreciate, I am very, very privileged as well in that we’ve had jobs that we’ve been able to do that with and not everybody has that chance. But I think, again, culturally, it’s something we should be looking at, how we can support families in the workplace and how we can build in that work-life balance and really encourage people to think outside of just having things in terms of how important experiences are in life.

I agree. Again, that’s such a holistic approach to life, and I really embrace that myself. And we don’t live in a very, you know, five or six star home or anything like that.

And it’s a country cottage in a lovely little rural area. And we keep chickens and I rescue cats and those types of things. Probably that would be somebody else’s turn off.

I don’t enjoy spending all my time in great big shopping malls or anything like that. It’s nice to do it, but it’s not something I would choose to do every week. And it is about that being time poor these days, isn’t it? And so rather than being time poor, you’re talking about being time rich.

And so that bereavement, the fact that it works on the bereavement side of things. And again, I agree with you, it seems as a failure when death is a natural part of life. My husband’s a Samaritan, so he and I have often discussions about death.

And that might sound quite morbid to people, like you’re saying. But actually, it’s not because I would rather be open to discussion about it rather than hide it under the table. At the moment, I’ve got a family member who’s just been diagnosed with cancer.

So I’m viewing that. He’s in his 90s, which doesn’t make it any better. But using that as an example, and I’m asking him, is there something that you want me to do? Is there anything you want to share? Is there something you haven’t done? I’d like you can help me to do.

I’ll help you to do, you know, things like that. And it’s not a failure. Is a natural part of life the same as the menopause or periods and all that in women and whatever happens to men? My husband complains about hairs going out of his ears, things like that.

He’s like, oh, my God, this is what happens when you’re in your 60s. But he’s made you choose differently then. So was it the bereavement side of it that’s made you choose differently? Or because it does change your choices and decisions in life? Or is that something that you were already doing, Emma? You know, so I think I think that was a huge eye opener and a huge turning point in my young life.

And it did made me choose differently. And it really made me think about what I wanted from life. And I think also coming from divorced parents, it’s very common.

But, you know, I definitely wanted to try my hardest to create a solid family home, but also to stay with good relationships. Even if things didn’t work out, you know, nobody’s perfect. So it made me think about, you know, how important relationships are and working on those.

But I think I think the other thing that’s been really helpful is that connection to nature. So through, again, through writing and observing and thinking about that and immersing my children in the natural world. And it’s really helped us process and understand difficult experiences and also look at the life cycle.

Again, thinking about death as part of the natural world, you know, and going out and looking at that close and upfront and personal. Even just in our allotment, seeing the lifecycle of the plants and flowers or, you know, enjoying the wild birds. But then you see, you know, the hawks hovering over and they’re all fantastic.

So it’s about just seeing us as part of that much bigger picture. And it’s not to romanticize things. And it is really difficult in life.

If you know people go through really difficult times with trauma, with physical health, you know, life is very, very unfair at times. But it’s also a journey. And one of the sayings I love to say to my children, I probably drive them round the bend.

But we cannot choose the hands that we’ve dealt, but we can choose how we play them. And I think that comes from a life coaching foundation I did many years ago, thinking about, you know, there’s always something we can do. One tiny step, even if it’s just thinking about something differently or trying to change our perception or making that one small step towards a dream.

Even if it’s as simple as you want to pursue something and you search it on the Internet or buy a book on it, you know, it’s you might not get all the way to that end goal. But there’s, you know, you can open so many doors for yourself and open up lots of curiosity and interest in the world just by starting that. And actually, it might not be about the end destination.

It might be about something else along the way. And that’s definitely how things have kind of worked for me in my career, always to opportunity. Absolutely.

What a wonderful perspective to have on it as well, the way you’re explaining that there. And similarly, in my life coaching background and you’re saying the same thing, it’s often about those small steps and people being people and tell me, you know, correct me. It sounds not right for what I’m saying, but very often when you’re coaching somebody, they want to take the big steps.

Now, this is the end goal. This is what I want to do. And I want to be there now.

And it doesn’t work like that because it’s too overwhelming. You have to really take small steps. And as you say, Emma, something like research and something on the Internet, having a discussion with somebody, just meeting somebody for a coffee and, you know, just maybe sharing something, they might have an idea that actually might inspire you.

And something that I wanted to mention as well, when you said, you know, a younger age, you were looking at what you wanted from life. There can be a misconception there about, oh, gosh, so I’m supposed to say what I want from life. Isn’t that just being greedy? Is that and it’s not actually, is it? Because as you say, life is a journey.

There are things there that we cannot change in life. And two of them are you born and you die. That’s it.

It’s what we do in between, isn’t it? So when you say you looked at what you wanted from life, was that in a goal setting way or was it just was it you were tuning into your passions or how how did it work for you? I think, yeah, well, again, I think coming back to journaling and writing and then kind of exploring the steps that I want to take on what’s important to me. I think like in health professional careers, we’re really encouraged to reflect all the time. And I think obviously my creative writing kind of led into that.

So I think it was, yeah, an unfolding of kind of different influences. But I think the one thing I’ve always tried to do is kind of stay open to change. If you can cope with change, it’s the one thing that is guaranteed in life.

Then I think you’re onto a winning streak because often, you know, we’re going to careers and we think it’s just we’re going to a set job and it’s going to be this way. And that’s where it is. And then the next thing you know, there’s an I don’t know, an extra funding thing coming in and they want to merge your team with someone else or they want to bring in a new way of practice that’s unfamiliar to you.

And I think if you can stay open and curious, that’s really, really important. And so I think, yeah, I’ve used my kind of journal writing and reflection to kind of process those experiences and realign myself. But I think I also haven’t been afraid to explore other opportunities, even if they seem unrelated to what I’m doing in the current time.

I’m always interested in talking to people and being curious about the world. I think curiosity goes hand in hand with good mental health. When people become unwell, what I see is a withdrawal from the world and much less interest in themselves and the people around them and opportunities.

And I think if you can try and get curious again and spark interest in things, then that, you know, allows for really interesting opportunities to happen. And actually is how I ended up doing my MA in creative writing. I thought when I came over to the university to work with Converge, I thought that I’d love to kind of sit in on the creative right classes.

But I thought I’d have to go and do an English degree to ever study it myself. And I kind of written off that side of things. And then it was just I was leaving work early one day and the literature festival was on in York.

And there was a big sign up saying a creative writing showcase event free to the public. So I thought I’ll go and have a look at that. My husband was home with the children.

So I phoned him and said, do you mind if I’m a bit late? And I went along and through that, I just got chatting to one of the tutors and they said, oh, you can come and do an MA. You know, it doesn’t have to be an English degree. You know, if you submit some of your writing, we can take a look.

And that door opened and never looked back. So, yeah, it’s just being open and curious, I think, are really, really important. And you also think I’m intrigued to know because I’m curious as well about sometimes an opportunity is presented in life.

And I’m similar to you. I’ll explore the opportunity. But it doesn’t always work out or it isn’t always the right thing.

Somebody may say something about something and I’ll open that door to it and I get an instant feel that just doesn’t feel right. And I don’t mean such as not coming out of your comfort zone, because sometimes you have to do that to embrace the new, don’t you? Like you say, there’s all these changes happening in life and at work and you might have been with the same company 15 years. You get a new head of reading or something or a new head.

And that just changes the whole way the company is organized and run. And that makes people make decisions to move on. But do you find in life that every opportunity that you’ve explored has worked or you’ve realized actually this isn’t for me and you’ve not gone there? Yeah, 100 percent.

I think many opportunities have not been what I hope them to be. And I’m terrible. I get overexcited about things.

I tend to take too much on an eternal optimist. Which sometimes is my downfall. Writing projects, great projects take a lot on.

And then I think, oh, my goodness, I’ve absolutely overwhelmed myself. I need to backpedal on this. So sometimes you need to step aside for a moment and just work out where your priorities are and what you want to channel your energy into.

And also kind of recognizing when something’s run its course. But again, like coming back to that philosophy of life being a journey, I feel like no decision is ever a wrong decision because it all informs kind of the next step and where you’re going to be. So sometimes you need to step into those things to work out that actually that’s not for you.

And so you don’t spend your life thinking, if only I had done that. And I think it’s quite interesting, particularly from the coaching perspective. Often when people have these huge goals, when you actually get down to the core of them, they don’t actually want those huge goals.

It’s a romantic idea of them or an impression they’ve got. You know, people will say they want to be writers, but it’s often that they’re imagining themselves a ritual for lying on a beach somewhere, you know, having world fame and kudos. But actually, you know, when you get into that dream with them, no writing ever takes place.

You know what I’m saying? But if you love writing so much, where’s the writing in that dream lifestyle? Oh, yeah. So it’s more about, you know, the end results are really thinking about what makes you tick and trying to align to that. And so, yeah, I often do test out different things.

And one of the big things I let go of in recent years, which was really, really hard actually, was where I started my kind of writing journey at St Nicholas Fields in New York, a fantastic nature reserve. When I resigned from the NHS and moved to Converge, I offered to volunteer at the Environment Centre to teach creative writing to connect people to nature, just for fun, more coming from my OT roots. I hadn’t done any of my MA or anything like that at that point.

But it was so successful, I ended up staying for eight years and I ended up bringing it under the umbrella of the work that I do at Converge. But there came a point in time when Converge was growing and my other work was growing and my other freelance opportunities, my writing career was starting to progress. And I realised that actually for that group, I had absolutely loved it, like the people who attended were absolutely amazing.

And I still hold them very close to my heart, but I knew that I’d probably exhausted what I could do in that environment. And for me, it was time to move on and trying to kind of distill my energies into one place because I was spreading myself too thin. And I made the decision to pass that group on to a friend to continue running.

And it’s still running today, so I’m really chuffed about that. But that opened a new door for me to be able to teach in a different way with the Field Studies Council and to kind of spread my wings as a writer and artist, which I’m grateful for. So, yeah, sometimes it’s recognising when you need to take those steps and to keep things fresh and to keep your eye on that bigger picture.

Most definitely. And something you said there about being the eternal optimist. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that because in the practice of Chigon and things like that, the talk about the energy levels in the body.

And when you’re being optimistic and even in a difficult situation, so nobody’s saying, no, this isn’t happening. It’s about acceptance that this is happening. What potentially can I do about it, if anything? And I always feel I’m doing something if I’m making a contribution, even if that’s, for example, making a phone call to do a little bit of research.

And so that connection between the energies and the optimism, I think, go together. And in terms of around when you’re making choices and decisions, when you go in to try something, I’ve learned that if my gut sinks, I just know it’s not the right thing. If I’m doing something like this, where I’m connecting with people and we’re sharing and talking about life and all those kind of things, I’m totally busy and excited because I just love it.

And one of the other things I’ve found as well, and again, I’m interested to know from your perspective, is about my big why. Is it why am I doing something? I’ve learned to question that now because like you, I’m like, I’ll do that. I’ll take that on.

And then before I know it, I’m doing five things that I haven’t actually got the full time to do. So it is about re-evaluating and taking a step back, isn’t it, and not being afraid to say no sometimes? Absolutely. And it’s a tricky one, isn’t it, because you get some amazing experiences passed your way.

But I think you’re absolutely right listening to your gut feeling. I really strongly believe that we don’t have enough kind of belief in our intuition and it’s something we’ve lost sight of in our culture that we need to reconnect with. And often people’s gut instinct is the right one and it’s really important to stay attuned to that.

So, yeah, I absolutely agree with you wholeheartedly there, Annette. I don’t know if you’re into coaching, you might follow some of the things that I do or may not, but I’m going to mention this anyway. Have you heard of the film The Secret and the book The Secret? I have heard of them, but I haven’t read them.

No, no, no, well, it’s OK. It’s just interesting because Rhonda, she wrote this book and she did this documentary about the secrets of life. And it’s things like you’re talking about connecting into your intuition and doing things that light you up and that you feel excited with.

There’s lots of other stuff with it. But one of the teachers in there is called John Assaraf, and he’s a very, very successful personal development man over in the United States. He’s got a massive, massive organization and he teaches all over the world people who want to be successful in business or personal life.

And I did some training probably just before the pandemic and he was the teacher. And we had a one to one and I said to him, I’m interested to know because you’ve got a very successful business. You have a huge, huge team of people that helps keep it going.

And we know he has to have all that. And I said, when you’re making a decision, how do you make it? You know, do you think it through intellectually? And he said, right. OK, he said, we have a mastermind team.

He said, and I will be in there with them in the boardroom. He said, and we will think it through intellectually. We will look at whether the numbers stack up, how practical it is.

He said, if all my team are saying to me, yes, we need to do this. Yes, we need to do this. He says, and I get a gut feel that it doesn’t feel right.

I won’t go there. And I was kind of sat back in amazement. I said, what, really? You would actually ignore what your team are telling you.

He said, yes, because ultimately it’s my responsibility and my decision. And if I feel there’s something not right, I’m not going to go there. And that really taught me a valuable lesson, Emma.

Yeah, it’s really interesting, isn’t it? I think often we ignore that tacit knowledge we’ve got. You know, so often that gut feeling is all your tacit knowledge that you kind of is there somewhere in our subconscious that’s kind of screaming at us, which way to go with the decision. And I think, you know, it’s about just being aware of those underlying values and, you know, what makes you tick as a person.

And, you know, again, coming back to reflection for myself, I’ll get that feeling, but I’ve had to learn the hard way actually sometimes to sit on decisions and just to, yeah, again, use my writing and reflection to just kind of hold that idea for a little while till I’ve kind of had a chance to explore it and think about it in different ways and decide if it definitely is the right thing for me. So rather than launching in feet first, listening to your instinct, reflecting on that and trying to kind of get to the core of, well, why is my tummy feeling fluttery right now? What is it about that person or that idea or that’s making me feel that something’s not quite right? So, yeah, I guess we’re coming back to mindfulness again. But my, you know, mindful with purpose, again, mindful in terms of what our body and our mind is trying to tell us and listening to that.

Yeah, it’s fascinating, isn’t it? Because different teachers use different modalities and different ways of explaining things. And I was on some, I get on some training earlier this week and two or three of the people in the group were saying about, I’ve got this decision to make and I’m just not sure which way to go with it. I’ve done all the pros and cons of it.

And the teacher in that particular group said, okay, look at it this way. What would love have me do? And I kind of, oh, that’s an interesting way of looking at it because we’re so focused on the practicalities, like write it down, oh, yeah, it’s like a job interview, isn’t it? What works, what doesn’t work? And then when he said, what would love have me do, we all kind of looked and went, actually there, that’s a really good way of connecting into you in a being, isn’t it? Instead of being in the head about it, yes, it’s the practicalities. If it’s 50 miles away and you’re going to work in a job, you’re not going to go there, it just doesn’t work because of the travel and the time.

But there were certain things people were asking and actually when he came back to that, what would love have me do, it was about tuning inside and going with what your heart was telling you. Absolutely. And I think, again, that reflects on culture in terms of we’ve become very, very process orientated.

It’s something I’ve noticed hugely in healthcare, and we love standardized assessments and rolling them out because people feel like they’re proving their worth if they have something quantitative that they can say, yeah, I did this assessment and it gave me this result. But I think looking at humanity, sometimes those processes kind of strip away humanity and make us blind to the bigger picture. And I often laugh about it with my stepmom.

She has multiple sclerosis, and she’s going to hospital for one thing to sort out something with a physical issue, and then they’ll do a big assessment with her. Have you got friends in your life? Are you able to, I don’t know, do this or the other things that she feels are completely unrelated? And rather than just having that open conversation with her about how she is managing and specifically what the issue is, often, you know, she ends up kind of pulled down a different route or not connecting with the staff member she’s been working with. And it just, yeah, I think it takes away from the process.

So it’s one thing I’ve decided to do here in my role at Converge. We’ve stripped away all medical language and assessments, and we speak to people. We have a chat with them about what’s important to them and what steps they would like to take.

And we let the process flow a bit more organically, and that we will work initially with the key thing that they want to do and explore here. But then there might be other things underlying that that are tripping up their journey that need to be worked on. But what we find is that they will kind of raise their heads as part of that journey and getting to know each other and understanding them.

Then we tackle things in a much more human way. And for me, the proof is in the pudding. We’ve had some amazing results here as well.

And the things that I’ve seen people to go on and do have been absolutely incredible, including getting other people onto the MA Writing Program who’ve come through with very few qualifications because of the life experiences they’ve had and getting people’s work published for them. So I think there’s something around, yeah, being able to talk to people, to explore their journey, to think about things in a different way and be brave to actually connect as human beings and trust that process in terms of not just sticking to set ground rules which can, yeah, make us blind to other things that are going on. And for some people, that will feel completely out of the comfort zone.

And I get my occupational therapy students here. And for some of them, they’re really disliked. The way that I work, it’s beyond what they want to do.

But for others, they absolutely thrive on it. And again, it’s kind of coming back to humanity and working out for us as individuals, where our superpowers lie, what makes us good in the world? And for myself, working in a more fluid and flexible way and working with people as human beings with humanity at the core and using, again, the things like creative arts and writing to do that is definitely in my strength and where I can most help people. And it’s great that there are other people doing things completely differently.

So it wouldn’t be for everybody. And that’s why we need that variety and mixture in the world. And it comes across when you’re saying all the things you’re saying about how passionate you are about that and how much meaning there is in your voice.

And one of the things that I use the word, it’s frustrating. And I don’t know what you’re getting, what your feelings are on this, but about how important communication is and how important it is to sit down and talk to people. And I see it time and time and time again in the work that I do.

And using the NHS as an example where you are trying to get some information and it almost feels like you are asking for the, I don’t know, asking for the world. When all you want is information about a family member, something like when they give you discharge notes to look at, it’s all in medical speaking. They’re asking somebody who’s a layperson to try and decipher that, but they don’t explain it in ways that you can understand.

It is still all very medical and the system itself is very medical, perhaps not in the area you’re working with, but my experiences have been. It is very medical. It’s a one-size-fits-all process.

And people are like that. How can they, I guess they haven’t got the time to spend with people to find out about what makes that person tick, Emma? Am I right? Yeah, I think, and that’s more of a reflection. My colleagues and staff in the NHS are absolutely incredible.

All people who want to make a difference and do good things, but it’s the pressure of the wider system. And again, not getting too political, but the way systems have been stripped of resources and funding, meaning that we’re really only able to focus on acute care now. It makes things very pressurized.

It’s just not the same time that there was for those conversations. But I think also it’s really important to remember, like, you know, as a writer, it comes back to the language we’re using. A lot of my job here in the university is kind of navigating that language with people.

So when it becomes tacit knowledge and we’re using it every day in our jobs, we forget that the layperson hasn’t ever heard of a multidisciplinary team or a formulation assessment or psychosocial approaches. And so many people come in here and say, oh my goodness, Emma, I’ve been called to this formulation meeting. What on earth is that? And I don’t know what they’re talking about.

So it’s, yeah, kind of thinking about that language and putting things in terms that everybody can access is important. And then also looking at opening up other areas of language that are of interest and are going to inspire people. So again, coming back to the nature-based stuff, you know, giving people vehicles, you know, in terms of the metaphor to actually explore their interests and, you know, giving them a language for their interests.

So like in the creative writing groups, in nature-based writing, being able to write about things in the natural world where they find that other people are excited by that too, and then they have that connection, not working in isolation. So finding out that someone else is a nature geek and they’re really inspired by that particular plant or species they’ve seen. Again, it’s not for everybody and that’s fine, but it is about networking and writing.

For me, it’s been a way of opening up that language with other people. I always say to my groups, it’s a bit like bake-off. You know, we could all work our way to being a master baker, but actually part of the joy is being with other people and tasting a bit of what everybody else has done and being inspired and having that connection and joy of a shared interest.

And yeah, so lots of interesting things to think about there. Yes, there is. It whets my appetite, because I’m creative as well, so it really whets my appetite, makes me want to be more involved.

So I guess for people who might be listening to this who are thinking, oh gosh, so I’ve got to be, you know, some super, super, super creative writing to try it. What advice would you offer to anyone wanting to try creative writing, and how would they go about it initially, I guess? So I would say it’s never too late to start. Whether you’re 20, 40, 10, it doesn’t matter.

80, go for it. And just look for opportunities, as we’re saying about the coaching, there’s always one small step you can take. So whether that’s a Google search about local writing groups in your area or ordering a book, fun creative writing tasks is always something we could do.

So I would say look for that connection and communicate to others what you want to do, and you’ll be surprised at the doors that will open for you. And I guess there’s so many things online these days, isn’t there? I know the pandemic sort of closed a lot of things off, but the opportunities to go online, if you feel comfortable to do that, there will be things there. But for those who aren’t comfortable to go online, there’s things like you’re talking about at Converge, there will be other things around.

And sometimes just, I don’t know, maybe looking into your adult education wherever you live, because this isn’t just in the Yorkshire area we’re talking about, is it, Emma? It’s all over the country. There’s got to be things out there that can get you started. Even if you write a line, a poem, or something, and it doesn’t matter what it sounds like, it’s coming from you, and that’s what’s important.

Definitely, and actually that’s one thing, a positive thing that’s come out of the pandemic is that online connection. It gave me the opportunity to work with writers right across the UK and abroad, actually, who joined the Field Studies Council online courses, and the wealth of things that are so much more accessible for that reason are absolutely brilliant, and I’ve been able to do some other really interesting courses with them. So yeah, I think there’s lots and lots of different ways of connection, and I would say one of the biggest things that’s helped me is just talking to people, having those conversations about what you’re interested in, and opening your eyes to just what’s around in the world.

It’s really surprising when you get chatting to people and ask them, even if you think they might not know anything about it, the different connections you’ll make, and the different things that people are aware of that you might not have even thought of. And I would say, push yourself out of your comfort zone, explore, go and try a class, because you might just surprise yourself. Often people, it’s getting through the door or opening into that Zoom room the first time, but once you’ve done it once, it gets easier, and people often come back and say, that was amazing, I’m going to try that again.

So yeah, being brave and giving it a go. And there’s those normal and healthy anxieties about trying something new. And I was, again, when I came to visit Converse a good while ago, I was so encouraged about listening and speaking to the people there who’d had the experience of mental health struggles and had been supported by yourselves and the team there.

And it was just lovely to say. And the atmosphere, Emma, it was amazing. And you talk about the energies.

When you go into a house and you think, oh God, no, there’s no way I’d buy this, it’s awful. And then you go into another and you’re like, oh wow. And it was a bit like that, because everybody was so uplifted, so inspired.

And I thought, yeah, this is what mental health is about. This is how people can be helped. It might not be for everyone, but just dip your toe in the water and try.

Yeah, and a lot of people listening to this who haven’t experienced it might think, that’s a university, that isn’t a place for me. But what I would say is all our courses are completely free here and we’ve tried to make it as open, as accessible as possible. You don’t need any qualifications to come to Converse.

Our only criteria, 18 and over, and the lived experience of mental health illness. So I think there’s something about environment. When people walk through the university doors, it speaks of hope, aspiration, and future.

So again, as a writer, often things in the world tell a story about us. So thinking about the places that you go to and how they make you feel. If you’re constantly just visiting health buildings and seeing therapists, it’s great that we have therapy available, but you’re constantly going over problems and things that are difficult.

So it’s really important to have that support, but it’s also important to be allowed to step out of that illness narrative and actually celebrate those things about you. That aren’t to do with problems or difficulties, things that make you smile, things that make you interested and going to places which raise you up where you feel it’s a real privilege or an excitement to be there. And often I meet people who say, this isn’t for me.

I’m not allowed in places like this. I’m on benefits or I’ve been pushed out of society and I think we need to work hard as a culture, not to other people with mental health, to accept that we all have mental health, it’s a sliding scale, and to embrace and welcome differences and opportunities for people and to actually encourage people to give things a go and not to write off people’s dreams, not to say, no, that’s not possible, because they might not become that rock star that they have that dream of, but actually if they pick up a guitar and learn to play and have some mates they can go and jam with at the end of the week, well, that is a massive win and actually might be enough. It’s up to the individual and what they want to do with their time.

So yeah, don’t forget to play as an adult and touch base with that kind of in a core of the things that make you tick. Yeah, and again, that excites me what you’re saying about opening up to dreams and aspirations. It might not be, like you say, somebody might be a rock star, but they could end up doing something that really fills their life with passion and purpose.

And one of the things when I first heard when I had depression myself and anxiety and the doctor, the one that actually is, the Zen Buddhist teacher had said to me, well, there’s nothing wrong with having depression on it. And I was like, isn’t there? Oh, I thought I was really ill. And that was, again, that perception, isn’t it? Because you’re not feeling well anywhere.

But he said, no, you haven’t got an illness. It is part of life. And those labels that are placed upon mental health, there’s more and more of it, isn’t there? There’s so many different ones now that it’s almost like in certain cultures anyway, you have to have a label to fit in.

And that’s not true, is it, Emma? You don’t have to have a label. You can just be, as you say, with mental health, living your life and living it to the best of your ability. Absolutely.

And recovery is about managing to stay somewhere in that level of the sliding scale where you’re able to do the things that you want to do and have that quality of life. And constantly saying to people, normal is a setting on a washing machine. And it’s really important not to over-medicalize how we think and feel, because sometimes the sadness will be upon us, but sometimes that’s a really normal, healthy reaction to a really difficult situation.

So, yeah, but it is about, sometimes we do need that extra support and help, so some people with diagnosis can be important. It helps define a cluster of symptoms. It might help them to explain what’s been going on, but it’s also important not to then just get channeled off somewhere else in society because of that, that you’re still a valued and important person and still have a contribution to make to the world, no matter how small or large that is.

We are people-orientated as humans. We’re herd animals. We need other people and connections around us.

It doesn’t have to be masses of people, but, yeah, for our human spirit, that’s what we align to. And that’s interesting again about the human connection and needing other people and the herd. A lot of the community projects I worked on, they were all very much about connecting people together and people who were socially isolated, whether that be older people, you know, males on wheels, whether it be the prison work, the probation work, the coaching within the community.

It is all about that connection and those feelings of isolation that come with depression and anxiety because you feel you’re on your own and nobody else is experiencing it. So it’s wonderful to hear you say that it is and that’s how you deal with it at Converge. I’m just conscious that we’ve got four minutes left, Emma.

So I wanted to try and get the best value that we can for you and for people listening. I think that what you are saying, it’s so fascinating to listen to somebody like you who has got a completely different slant on mental health and on creative writing and that nobody should be written off in this life, in this world, whether you’ve got depression, anxiety, disability or whatever, or anything, and age because age is one of those things where there’s been issues around people, you know, wanting to work after they’re 60, 65, whereas years ago you had to stop. And so that’s a whole new thing as well.

So we should be embracing all these kind of different diverse ways of living and different people’s backgrounds and ages, shouldn’t we? Absolutely, and writing has been my vehicle to do that. It’s opened up connection with so many varied people and activities that I’ve been able to do and that skill I can share with other people. So it might not be writing for you listening, it might be something completely different, it might be baking, it might be football, you know, something I’ve never heard of, but I think it’s, yeah, remembering what’s at our core and using that to connect and be with other people and to share that passion is a beautiful thing to do.

And sometimes it might be that people do need somebody to guide them. So using coaching as the tool there, as the example, because not everybody’s going to have the same access to somebody as wonderful as you. So if they haven’t got that, I would always advocate don’t close the door on having some coaching if you can afford it, or finding a network, a support network that’s free, that brings everybody together and shares their common goals and interests.

Definitely, and there’s loads of great self-help books out there. I started my coaching journey with the 10 Steps, book to achieving what I wanted. And just, do you know what? I go on dog walks regularly with my best friend and she’s often my best coach and mentor and will help me make those decisions.

So a really good friend you can connect with who will inspire you and encourage you and champion your journey is a great first step in the world, definitely. Having friends and some of those close friends who you can really connect with through difficult times is so important, so valuable, isn’t it? And I know so many people don’t have that, and that’s the sad fact of this world. But what I wanted to say before we close off is, thank you so much for being my guest today, Emma.

It’s been so insightful and such a great joy. I want to thank everybody for tuning in to Doctor Annette Talks with Emma McKenzie today. And please don’t forget to check us out at womensradiostation.com. You can find us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn, all those usual places.

But one of the things that Emma just said earlier will stay with me, and I wanted to share that again with everybody listening. That’s about hope, aspiration and future. And if we all learn to hone in and connect with people like Emma and organizations like that and can hone into those words through our darkest moments, we will come through the other side.

Life isn’t perfect, but it is a journey. And I will see you all next time.