I'm just a poor boy, though my story is seldom told. I've squandered my resistance for a pocket full of mumbles. Such are promises, all lies and jest, till a man hears what he wants to hear and still disregards the rest. When I left my home and family, I was no more than a boy in the company of strangers. I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome I took some comfort there. In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade, and he carries the reminder of every glove that laid him down and cut him till he cried out in his anger and his shame. I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains. These are the lyrics from The Boxer by Paul Simon, which emphasizes the struggle of the life of my guest Billy Schwerr. Before I introduce Billy, I would also like as usual, to give you the background to the psychological and social theme of our discussion. Freud, as I have said many times, stated that the boy is the cornerstone of the father. Andrew Samuels, the renowned psychoanalyst, also talks about the impact of the father on a child's life as a container for structure and order out of chaos. I would also add that the father is and was a monitor of physical strength. The father would traditionally show the way into society for the son, and in fact also for the daughter. The gender change in our society means that the patriarchal structure, where men are seen to have more power and privilege than women, and an ideology which legitimizes this concept, is being transformed. Part of the patriarchal structure was this power, and the power was expressed economically by giving the financial decision-making to men. Also by physical— by the physical ability, because men were biologically stronger. I was brought up with brothers, so I know. And I also think that this was incorporated into our daily lives. Historically, men needed physical strength to fight off the terror of invasion. In the book King, Warrior, Magician, Lover, by Robert Moore and Douglas Gillett, they focus on the boys' psychology of the abusive and violent acting out of behaviours against others. They argue that truly deep-rooted masculinity is not abusive. They continue to add that those caught up in the structures and dynamics of patriarchy seek to dominate not only women but men as well. Patriarchy, they claimed, is based on fear A boy's fear of both women and of other men. I am Dr. Maria Kempinska, and this is Your Mind Matters. From my personal Polish background, where both men and women were given educational equality, I was surprised when I started my business to discover I couldn't get a mortgage without moving my account into my husband's bank, although he worked in my business, which I started. I also discovered that only since the 1970s, women had been given financial equality, which has been— which has seen in turn the emergence of female development in business. In the modern day, we feel as if we're on a social pressure cooker where men are adapting to a new form of social structure, and the pressure to be physically high-achieving, masculine, is being transformed into encompassing and understanding the feelings of others, which used to be the domain of the female. The feeling domain being that of the female is no longer the case. We are seeing figures of female violence growing, and women raising children on their own is expanding with devastating effect. Both men and women are being forced to adapt— the female towards more power, autonomy, and order, and the man, or male, towards feelings, affect, and nurture. To remove and attack all men seems counterproductive to society as a whole. I hope this has set the scene for my discussion with my fascinating guest, Billy Schwerr, a former British and Commonwealth and European lightweight and the IBO world lightweight welterweight title champion. He is also now a speaker and mentor for men to transform their lives. His best-selling book is called Man Up. I am truly delighted to welcome Billy Schwerr. So Billy, can you begin by giving me an understanding of your upbringing? It's so great to be in a conversation with you about this. This is— it's a great subject, and I want to go back to Paul Simon's lyrics, the fighter still remains. That really resonates with me because I really believe that we're all fighters, men and women. We're all fighting something in our lives. And what I found that to be the case is generally we're fighting ourselves and really battling with, is it possible? Am I good enough? Do I belong? Do I fit in? And just that constant conflict, maybe the internal conflict that we have. And I've put these two words together, mental boxing— mental and boxing— because That's why— that's what I was doing with myself. I was having a mental boxing match with myself. As we'll come to that later, I, I believe we could all relate to the mental boxing, the, the battle that we're consistently having with ourselves and others. And that's, and that's what brings me to here today, to sharing what I've done in the past and what I'm doing now. And so my So back to your question is, I had a really amazing upbringing. I was very lucky, it's very fortunate to have great parents, two older sisters. So I was the baby. You had, you had brothers, I had sisters. So that dynamic was different, and, uh, it's just an interesting— yeah, I was very fortunate to have a very, very supportive family. So I was very lucky. So, um, where were you born? Give everybody a background because, you know, you don't come— you come from, as they term, humble backgrounds now, don't they? But truly humble really meant you were born with very little financial, you know, sort of the financial status that kids now expect. I think the credit card changed everything for everybody, but, you know, and the financial support that everybody gets. So give us a really good description of how you were brought up. So, so I'm— I was brought up, born and raised and bred in Luton, Luton Town. So my dad, working class, we're working class. My dad is Irish, so the name Schwör is German. My mum's English, dad's Irish, but the name goes way, way back. And on my father's side, there's— they've tracked it back to a German Jewish watchmaker, so there's a right mix in there. But my dad come over from Ireland on his own as a kid of 14 to become a jockey. So he arrived in Newmarket and worked in the stables as a stables lad. Now, he was a boxer over in Ireland. He was very successful. He was a national champion as a kid. And, um, he found— so he's even in Newmarket there. So then anyway, to cut a long story short, the family ended up in Luton. So that's where, that's where kind of my dad then took up welding. So he was a jockey, did that for a while, but it was always boxing as well as working, working class. So he worked at Electrolux, so he was a welder there. And then to meet my mum, so my mum, her brother was a boxer also, so that was the connection. So my mum saw my dad at a boxing contest, at a show. And obviously my dad and my, and my mum's brother were connected, so that, that's how it all started. So working— we're just working class from Luton. What does that mean though, Billy? What did working class mean? Working class for me is most of us are working class, aren't we? We're We go to work, do a day's graft for a day's pay, and it's not easy. So my dad was a welder, so it was— that's the kind of work that he got it, kind of got engaged in. It's physical, it's that physical kind of work. Yeah, that's how I relate to it. And what was your economic status? Did you, you know, what did you have? Did you go on holiday? Did you go out? Did what Yeah, we was, we, we was okay. We was okay. We was, yeah, we was okay. Was very lucky. We just had a great childhood. Yeah, we was okay in— we wasn't poor, we wasn't, um, struggling as such because my dad worked— Mum and Dad worked really hard, so they provided us with— we had, we had a good upbringing. We was very lucky. So we did go on holiday. Yeah, we did, we did experience that as children. And I can remember that, yeah, we was very lucky. We wasn't, we wasn't really hard done by as such. We're just working class. And yeah, and you know what, there's— I was talking to somebody actually about suicides that are happening today. And the tragedy is, he said that there's a lot of men who work on building sites and that, that sort of physical manual labor, they're taking their own lives. Yeah, you know, nowadays, which is so sad. Yeah, I heard that recently. Yeah, it's quite— that was quite surprising. Yeah, and maybe because the value of their work isn't recognized anymore. It's all gone up into the head and it's quite intellectual, but we'll come to that. But there's the sadness of that. So what age were you when you started boxing? So I started boxing when I was 8 years of age. So obviously, yeah, my dad had had his career, and then obviously he had us kids and stuff. So his boxing career finished. He was just— he didn't turn professional, he was just an amateur. So then he, then he had his own business as a— he's kind of set his own business up as a welder. So he was, so he was busy doing that. And then, um, at 8 years of age, the story is that I asked Dad to take me down to the boxing gym. So, so So that's what he did. And then he created his own boxing club at the Holy Ghost Center in Luton, which is attached to a church in Luton. And that's where it all began. So I'm 8 years of age, and it was, um, it was downstairs, and we had to erect the gym. So we had to put the ring post in the floor each night that we went into there. It was kind of a very, very basic gym. Makeshift. And that's where, that's where it all started. So, uh, Billy, what was your first, you know, so you have obviously, you have to train because we know now and there's so much more access to seeing all this development, but you obviously had to train. So were you very sprightly? You must have been very agile as a young boxer. I was very much, I was a skinny little kid and I, I was, yeah, full of energy. Running around, and that, that was definitely, that was definitely who I was. Yes, amazing. And as a boxer, the fitness levels are very, very extreme. Boxing, boxing is a very different sport and a very— it's a different contact sport. Yeah. So before we get into the contact and the whole premise of the whole boxing arena, how fit does a boxer have to be in relation to other sports? Well, boxing's different, so the fitness levels, because the activity is very different. So if you think about, see, boxers— boxing is arguably the toughest sport there is, professional boxing, not amateur boxing, professional boxing, because you go into the ring and when you're competing at a championship level, you're doing 12 3-minute rounds. So when you enter the ring as a professional boxer It's, it's very different because the intention— so other sports, the intention is very different. So, but you play football, you play rugby, you play golf, but you don't play boxing. Boxing, you go into the ring as a professional to cause bodily damage, and that's the brutal reality of it. Boxing is dangerous, and some people view it as being barbaric. It's, it's, it's brutal. It can be brutal, but it's known as and called the noble art, the sweet science. So it's whether you can see through the brutality of boxing, professional boxing, and, and appreciate the art of it. And I think lots of people do do that. Boxing's very, very popular. People have, have huge respect for boxers, professional boxers. Absolutely. I remember because my brother, as I said, he's sadly no longer alive, and he would have loved to hear you speak. Um, he was a boxer, temporary, you know, amateur boxer when I was growing up, and there's— I knew how much he had to put into it, and it was fun. Yeah. And tell me, what was your first prize when you got— my brother used to bring back sort of things like, uh, cutlery sets. That's it. Yeah. And things like that. So Yeah, we used to get little trophies, little trophies. That was the— and I remember having my first contest when I was 11, right? A little skinny 11-year-old kid. And I could— yeah, I remember it clearly. And you know what was so fascinating about the whole thing? Remember, we're slipping back in time, although you're not an old man. You know, this is a while back, you know, we are slipping back in time and Physical strength, there's nothing wrong with that. And changes were made to boxing, weren't there, over time on the— how, you know, sort of, uh, how to protect the boxer. So that was made over time. But in the time you were training, you must have been hit a number of times. And considering that, you're still a good-looking man. But there are some boxers who really end up with tragic, you know, sort of transfiguration of their faces. And I say thank God for plastic surgery. Yes, indeed. But you know, it was a sport that actually took people from the working-class arena and gave them an opportunity to strive out of that. It is a sport, let's not diminish what it is. It was a sport and they were regulated, weren't you? You were regulated. It wasn't just a free-for-all bare-knuckle fighting. Yeah, no, it was The British Boxing Board of Control is recognized as one of the best governing bodies in the world for looking after their boxers. We have to, we have to have brain scans every year. You're, you're under medical supervision all the time. So they do the best that they can and accidents still happen even in the face of that. And that's, and that's the risk that we take as a professional boxer. We step into the ring, fully aware of the possible risks. I've had a friend of mine killed in the ring. I know guys that have been brain damaged, permanently damaged, and that's the risk that we step into the ring taking with us. But you know, I think that, uh, my— one of my favorites, and I know that I'm sure this was the case for a lot of people, was Muhammad Ali when he was Cassius Clay and boxing, fighting, because he was such a poet. Was he— were you a fan of his? Tell me about who you looked up to. Yeah, that was kind of early. I would have been very young at that point, and he was an incredible ambassador for the sport of boxing. I mean, at one point he was the most— one of the most recognized faces in the world. Yes, totally. And he transcended boxing. He was such He was a poet, he was an artist, wasn't he? He was a genius. He was a genius and, and totally lovable. And you could watch him dance around the ring, and I'm sure you were the same dancing around the ring because you, you're a lightweight, you are very lithe, you're very, as I said, agile. You have to be in your, in your weight of boxing. When I was saying to somebody that I'd met you and I was delighted to have met you, and he said, well, what weight is he? And I said, crikey, I don't know. But now I do. Um, Billy, let's slip forward, because you became very famous. You did brilliantly, didn't you? You won championships. Yes, so I won the British, the Commonwealth, the European, and I eventually become the world champion on my fourth attempt. So my first attempt was in Las Vegas. So can you imagine, I'm just a normal kid from Luton Town in Bedfordshire, and I am top of the bill in Las Vegas as a 25-year-old. Wow. And I was— I remember standing outside the MGM Grand, which was at that time the biggest hotel in the world, and I look up and 30 foot up in the air was a big display unit. My name was flashing in lights. It was Billy Shwer Luton. It was like, wow, this is— this is a big time. Luton's gone global. But that's still true today. If it were to happen today, it'd still be the case, wouldn't it? Yes, it is such, such an experience to, to be on that stage. I mean, boxing Vegas is the, the fight capital of the world, and to be, to be able to be, to, to reflect upon it, it was such a moment. It was incredible. I was unsuccessful, unfortunately, because I, I ended up receiving two big cuts. I had a big cut over my both eyes, about 2 inches long. I required 70 stitches after the fight, and it was like, it was tough. It was tough. So in boxing, if you got cut eyes and the blood's running into your view, you're— they stopped the fight. So that was, that was the, that was the, that was my first attempt of becoming a world champion. And I remember after the fight, I was waiting to go and see the plastic surgeon. You meant some— you mentioned plastic surgery. So I was waiting to see the plastic surgeon. He was stitching, going to stitch my face. I remember sitting there. I've got a broken nose. I've got blood all down the sides of my face. My, my ribs are in agony. I'm bashed up. And I'm thinking to myself, you know what? Maybe there's, maybe there's easier ways I could make a living. Maybe I should think about getting a proper job. You know, it's that conversation because this is a brutal way to make a living. I was a prizefighter and I had a dream to become a champion, a world champion. And as in life, as we experience, sometimes we don't get what we want first or second or third time around. Is having the courage and the persistence and the determination to keep really focused on what it is that you do want. So who was your coach? So my dad taught me how to box. So at 8 years of age, my dad was my trainer. So then he looked after me. So my dad's been in my corner For all of my amateur fights, I had, I had nearly 100 amateur fights and 45 professional fights. My dad was in my corner for more or less all of them. So he's been with me through thick and thin, in fights, in the ring, and in my life challenges outside of the ring. So he's always been there for me. He's always— Mom and Dad have been, they've always been there. They've been just so supportive and just incredible. And yeah, amazing, amazing. It's great to— I stayed with them a couple of days ago, had a couple of nights with them, and they're, they're great. It's just they're in good shape, they're in good health, which is the main thing. That is the main thing, and I'm absolutely delighted. But so there you are, and you eventually gave up boxing. What happened? Well, boxing kind of gives you up, and it's kind of— it wasn't a choice that I made. So I become the world champion So turning pro at 21, I was with the manager Mickey Duff, who was the main man at the time. And, um, I had a great— he guided me greatly. Is I— so I become the British and Commonwealth Champion after 2 years. Then I— he got me up, moved me up the world rankings. I went to Vegas, unsuccessful. I came back. I then challenged for the European title because I was highly ranked in Europe. I was number one challenger. So I went over to Spain I challenged and won the European title in an epic contest in an Olympic stadium in Spain. It was 10,000 Spaniards in there, and it was like walking into the amphitheater. It was like the last of the gladiators. It was like an Olympic stadium. It was incredible, the noise in there, and it was amazing. And I was successful, knocked him out of the 10th round in a epic contest. It was voted contest of the year by the European Boxing Union. It's a, is a great contest. So I came back home, defended the European title 3 more times, which moved me up the world rankings again. I got another shot at the world title, Wembley Arena. I was boxing, uh, the very best in the world. I was ranked number 1. It went the full 12 rounds and I lost on points. I had more stitches in my face across the bridge of my nose, more plastic surgery. But then, but this fight was— there's controversy after the fight because he failed the drug test. Oh, so my opponent was so good and he was so quick, I just couldn't catch him. It's like it was, it was like, it was like the wind. So then, uh, but what happened was he got away with it and he got off on a technicality. So I was so disappointed. And it's like dealing with the disappointments, the upsets in life. How do we come back from those situations and circumstances? Because they're challenging. How did you come back? Well, I realized the lesson was, you know, to produce world-class results, we've got to be powerful in the face of adversity, setbacks, and defeat. Because we're all going to face adversity at some point in our lives. We're all going to suffer defeat. We're all going to fail. I believe in failing your way to the top. I don't think we fail enough. I think we've got to push ourselves and go beyond ourselves and get on the edge of failure and be willing to fail, as I was. And every time I stepped up to the ring, I gave it 100%, and I was ready and willing to die to become a world champion. That's how— that's where my mental state was at. I went in the ring, give it all. So what was your last, uh, fighting— what was the last fight? And did you know at that point this was going to be the last one? And what happened to you when you found out it was going to be the last one? Well, it wasn't a choice because— so the second attempt, I failed on that attempt. Then I got another third attempt, I lost on a split decision. So that was 3 failed attempts. Then on my fourth attempt, I won the the World Championships on points, and that, that was like— so I'd achieved my dream, but the dream wasn't quite as sweet as what I thought it was because I ended up in hospital that night. So they kept me in, in hospital for 2 days. They released me. It was concussion. Thankfully I was okay. And then me being me, I had my first defense only 3 months later. Upon reflection, it was too soon. And I remember training for the fight, getting punched in the head and thinking, this doesn't feel right. It just didn't feel right. Anyway, I didn't tell anyone. I continued with the training camp and had the fight and I got knocked out in the 11th round. So I— it wasn't a last fight that I chose to have. It wasn't a choice. I got knocked out in the 11th round and I go back to hospital. But this time I travel in style. I go back, I go in the back of an ambulance. So we're traveling through central London, the sirens are blaring, we're dodging through the traffic, and it was in that moment there that I remember looking out the window and I realized that, you know what, my life as I know it is over. And that was when I made the toughest decision I've ever made, to retire from boxing, because I knew in my heart if I continued, there could be a possibility that I'd get killed. And I was really present to that. And two trips to hospital, I think that was, that was my sign. That was a sign for me to, to let go and just give it up. Are you a spiritual man? I am, yes. And was that born out of what happened to you, or was it always part of your life? No, it was more so afterwards, for sure, definitely. And there you are, you're lying there, and was it that How did that feel? I just want to get an indication of how that feels to you, because you, in your book, The Man Up: The World Champion Way, which is a fascinating book, and it's— we'll come to how powerful it is, not only for men but also it can be powerful for women. But just that moment, how did that— where did that come from? Was it a thought, a feeling, and the image that you're passing by? You're going now for the second time to hospital. Was it words that came to you? How does that intuition happen to you? It was a feeling. It was a feeling and a fear. Okay. A fear of death. So I kind of confronted that fear every time that I stepped into the ring, and I was, I was a willing participant. And it was so— I think it kind of runs out at some point. So after experiencing those Well, the hospital— the first experience in the hospital and then being in the back of the ambulance. Because when I was in the ambulance, I didn't know whether I was going to live or die. Because what happens is you get a bleed on the brain and all sorts of problems can happen. I was very, very lucky and I, I was okay. I just had concussion again. But that— so the reality is I could have lost my life in that moment. And as some fighters have done in the past. So I was really present to that, and that— and it was— I love life. So then it was in that moment of just realizing that it's over, which is so, so— it was devastating. Well, this is all your life. Yeah, it was. It wasn't— it's not like it was a 24/7 experience of life. It wasn't a job. That was just who I was. I was Billy the Boxer. Yeah. And I suppose everybody didn't— I expect everybody in Luton must have known you. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And obviously being performing on the world stage, being the European champion, I was, I was known within the fight community and also around. And obviously, yeah, I was very well known in Luton. I was I was a hero of Luton. Yeah, of course, there weren't many, were there? I mean, Luton isn't renowned for a great number of people except yourself, really, and Luton Town football, I presume. Yeah, and Paul Young, he's from Luton. Oh, is he? Paul did a show with me on, uh, Dimwells Live. What a lovely man, if you've ever met him. Uh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Totally, totally adorable. And he sadly has lost his wife recently, but what an amazing man. Um, Were you married at the time? I was, yes. No, yeah, yeah, I was married. And, and that was so rel— just letting go of my identity was a real struggle for me. So it really impacted my marriage. I went for an identity crisis. I didn't, I didn't know who, I didn't know who I was. How could you? There you were from 8 Yeah. How old are you now, in your 30s? Yes, 31. 31. So that's so many. Yeah, it's tragic in a way that you had to give it up. And were you trained? Were you prepared for this? Did anybody talk to you about what happens to you when you give something as intense as that? Well, a friend of mine, a Scottish boxer, Gary Jacobs, one of my best boxing friends, and he was 5 years ahead of me, so I was aware of what he was going through. And so I kind of knew what was coming, but I was preparing for it. But you just can't prepare for what the actuality of it is, because talking about something is very different to experiencing it. So then I was aware of the challenges and what's coming, and, and I was preparing for that, but you— it's difficult to really You can't, because we learn through experiences. I— this is my— what I believe. We learn through experience. You can't— you read it out of a book or somebody tells you something, but most of our learning is through experience. And trying to prepare for that experience, it was impossible, was impossible. So I had to experience the experience. You do. And, um, in, in the Jewish religion, or pre-Jewish religion, or the mystic religion around the Jewish theme, if you like. Uh, there's in the Kabbalah, there is one of the— I can't remember— Safirs, Seraphs they call it. And there's something that is to do with knowing, really knowing something. And they talk about— so, say for example, if you know water, so you might say, yes, I know water, I drink it, I bathe in it, or I swim in it. But they say, no, you don't know water until you're caught up in the intensity of a whirlpool. Or, you know, the undercurrent of the sea, and you struggle against it and you know you can pull yourself out of it. That's real knowing, and that's what we're talking about here. You went into the undercurrent of life. You then struggle in that moment for survival. Is that how you felt? It was. I found the transition from being Billy the Boxer to being Billy a very difficult one, and it was And it was— yeah, I was being dragged down into the undercurrent, and I just didn't know how to survive that. And I, I tried to survive it through the only way that I know how, to battle and fight my way through it, which didn't work. And that's— so then I got caught up, and I struggled, and that was the challenge that I went through. And that was— it was like I had to get to a point of— I had to wake. It's like an awakening. I had to get to the bottom, to the depths of— I went through as— so as I'm coming, getting accustomed to being Billy, I'm trying to figure who Billy is, making loads of mistakes along the way. I wrecked my marriage, which ended up in divorce. I, uh, got caught in the recession. I ended up going bankrupt. I was depressed, had a mental breakdown. I was having suicidal thoughts. I was in the depths of despair. I had my home repossessed. I had no money. I had no future. I hit rock bottom. Yeah, you say that I fell into an abyss of darkness. Yeah. And you also talk about escaping reality. How did you do that? How— what happened? Drug, sex, and rock and roll, baby. Yeah, yeah. And that was all to escape. I couldn't be with my situation. Yeah. And be with— I couldn't be with myself. I didn't like myself. And do you think people take lots of drugs to escape from their reality? It's interesting. So I'm working with a guy today, business owner. I work with a lot of business owners, and is it the conver— we had the same conversation. There's a lot of they go, I know lots of guys who are on antidepressants, they overeat, they drink. So they're doing drugs, they're doing eating, they're doing food, alcohol to escape. And it's like, so the conversation I was having with him was interesting about, I think people who go to work as an executive, they should be corporate warriors. They're kind of corporate athletes. Yes, for themselves. Yeah, and I— this is where we'll move into how you're helping them, because this is also the important part of this interview, is how you now have totally taken up your personal challenge. You've survived and you've totally transformed yourself, which is what makes you such an exciting example of how to live life, whether it's for men or women. But before I come to that, can I just ask you a little bit more about that moment?— or those moments when you're wrestling with that undercurrent of life, that one that is trying to pull you down, the one that you don't know how to get out of because you've not been taught. And was there a lifeline? You said you totally broke down. How did you get through that? Did somebody help you? I, I got help. So I— this is— we're talking 20 years ago, so mental health wasn't discussed And I felt ashamed as well. I was embarrassed where I was at, and I was trying to figure out— I didn't ask anyone for any help. I didn't know how to. I was a winner. I was a fighter. I should— I kind of should be able to figure it out. I should be able to find my way through it. But I was failing. I was failing miserably. And, um, it wasn't until I hit the bottom and a very good friend of mine kind of gave me a lifeline and he talked about a program called the Landmark Forum. Oh yeah. So Dave— we had a conversation with Dave and he's telling me about it and I thought, that sounds amazing, I'll go and do that. This was, this was 2 years prior to me actually doing it, and it was kind of one of those conversations which sounds good at the time and then you put it off and leave it and it kind of goes out of existence and it disappears. And then for me, my experience was 2 years later, I, I needed this thing that he was talking about. I didn't even know what this thing was, and I'd lost contact with Dave, and I kind of by accident— it was a funny story— I went to a place over in Greece on the island of Rhodes, a place called Lindos. He used to own a bar there, and he had sold his bar, so I went back there on holiday just— and this shouldn't have happened, but I accidentally just bumped into him on walking through a cobbled street in— on in the little town of Lindos. And it was like, wow. So, all right, so I said, Dave— Dave Hockley, his name is, a beautiful man. And so I said, Dave, what was that thing you were telling him about? So then he told me all about it again. I said, have you got the phone number for it? And he got— so I met him the next day on the beach, and he gave me the phone number, and I rang them up, and I booked myself onto the next available landmark forum. So I arrived home on the Monday and I did the landmark forum on the Friday, the following Friday, and that was in August of 2003. And I did this 3-day training, and honestly, I walked out the building never to be the same ever again. It just rocked my world. And then that was the start, that was the lifeline that Dave gave me. I, I grasped it and I went to work on it because that's who I am. If I, if I can find a an access to something. And it— the transformation had started. And it wasn't— my journey from then onwards wasn't perfect, but it was the start. And I really started to unravel Billy the Boxer. What I discovered was what had Billy the Boxer become a world champion was now having Billy fail. The attributes that I had— I was persistent, I was courageous, I was determined— those nice traits that we'd like to talk about, what came with them were— I like, I talk about them as the good, the bad, the ugly traits. So the ugly traits, now that I look back on that, they served. I was aggressive, I was domineering, I was inconsiderate, I was always right, I was selfish, I was rah rah rah, I was a fighter. So that worked for Billy the Boxer, but it didn't work for Billy and Billy's life. Ask my ex-wife, she'll tell you, it just didn't work. I didn't know how to be anything else because I was conditioned to be that way from a kid of 8. So my conditioning was fight, defend, resist, confront, and attack. And that's who I was. I didn't know how to be any other way. And so it was when I was starting to go to work on myself and unravel and dismantle Billy the Boxer, I kind of saw that for myself. It was like, it was profound to realize that, oh, that's, that's what's— my life's not working. So what's not working? Oh, I'm not working. And that's the bit to confront, is that if your life's not working, you may have something to do with it because you're, you're there, you are present. So I looked at my life and all the areas that weren't working, there was a common theme, and the common theme was me. And that's the bit to confront and acknowledge, go, right, so I've got something to do with this. So I need to, I need to, I need to have a deeper look at this. Amazing. But Dave, uh, in, you know, sort of those terms that I was trained under Jung, that, that moment with Dave was a very meaningful synchronistic moment where it was like when they say, you know, when you're ready, the teacher will come. And it did. And this is what you needed. Yeah. And, and you, you grasped it yourself. Yeah. He gave, he gave me the possibility of something And he shared it in a way, he shared it in a way that left me with, oh, this— there is something else available then. Yeah. So he shared in a way that gave me the essence of something else other than what I've got. Yeah. So then I, I, I took the— I found the courage to go and get involved and have a look and do the work, because I'm a worker and I know that nothing's for nothing. If you want something, you've got to go and do the work to, to, to succeed at it, to get it. So you were totally having to take a new look at yourself. So it's not a case of blame, it's not a case of punishing, it's a case of, oh my goodness, I've got to change and transform who Billy the Boxer was with all those magnificent attributes into the new Billy Chua, who you are today, and, and the mentor that you've become. And these are the attributes that you had to recognize for yourself. But while you're recognizing the good bits, as you say, the bad and the ugly also come up to trip you up. Yeah, ego identity was very— that was kicking off big time. And who you are, how do you represent your world, yourself to the world, how are you going to be with your friends, how are they going to look at you, and especially with in the status of celebrity which you were and are, you know, how do you represent yourself to the world and what are you doing there? What's your place? Did you ever think, how can I impact the world? Not at that time, because I was coming from a place of survival. Because I went on a path which is— we all hear about these, we hear about athletes, we hear about— we go through, we retire from our sport, we go through depression, we go through a divorce, we go bankrupt. It's quite common. Very common, very common. So it was like a default future that I lived into, and that's the path that I ended up going down, and that's where I ended up. And it was like I was now a failure. I felt like a failure, and that's when I hit the bottom. Yeah. And then society was looking at me— what didn't really matter because what they were thinking of me, because I was thinking of myself as a failure. That's what had me be stuck in depression and breaking down because the, the view that I had of myself, it just didn't serve. So the Forum— or it's also called the Landmark, isn't it? Yeah, they're called Landmark Worldwide now, but the program is called the Landmark Forum. Yeah. And so they gave you a direction, is that— and the attributes that you— they enabled you to find a mirror to yourself and see the best qualities in yourself. Is that what they did for you? What they did— the conversation is a 3— you're in the room for 3 days. What I liked about it is because I've got ADHD, I'm dyslexic, I don't like to read or write. I do read, but it's not my, my thing. So this is not your go-to? Yeah, what my go-to. So this was sitting in a room having a conversation for 3 days about what it is to be a human being. Yeah, so you've got a leader at the front of the room, they go through a curriculum, and it's all— it's just all about you being a human, being a human being. And then, so then I— what it did for me was it gave me an access to a new future, because what happens was we— I was stuck in my past. I was Billy the Boxer, and I was living into this future of Billy the Boxer, which just I didn't— well, I didn't have a future at that time because there was no way that I could, I could go back to boxing. So I had no choice but to reinvent and create a new future. But I couldn't do that on my own at that time because I was living into the abyss of darkness, because I just didn't have a future. I couldn't see a future for myself outside of the boxing ring. So what the forum did, it allowed me to take what was in my future, which should be in the past, and put it back into the past and because I was being a victim. I was stuck being a victim of my past, and it was blame and fault. My life shouldn't be this way, poor me kind of thing. And then it wasn't until I realized that, oh, okay, my future is my responsibility now, so I've got— I need to create it. And when, when did Man Up come from this? At what point? How long were you doing that sort of work? Yeah, the Man Up is— that's 15, 17 years later, right? That's a long— that's a lot. It's a long time, isn't it, to transform? It's not that easy. You absolutely have to apply yourself, don't you? Well, it's— well, the way that I view it is transformation can occur in a conversation, and, and it also has got to be maintained and embedded in, and it's It takes work after to, to maintain the transformation because your identity, your ego is always going to be pulling you back to how you used to think or how you used to feel. And then we may get kind of addicted to the emotions of our past. I was, I was addicted to fighting. I was addicted to suffering. That was my story, that life's a struggle and money's hard to get. I was a prize fighter, so for me to go and make money, it was It was all a challenge for me, but I was addicted to that. I loved it, but it just— it didn't serve me now as, as a, as a man entering into a new life. I had to, I had to rewrite the story. Yeah, and it's almost like you have to, because I'm in the world of transformation as a psychotherapist. I do deep psychotherapy, and I've been in therapy myself for, you know, I started off as a quite a person in therapy at that time. Most people didn't do that because the transformational process is you chip away bit by bit, bit by bit, and you have to have the self-awareness to look at what's going on in your life and say, where does this come from? Is this— not only where is it coming from, is it a value? Not to blame people is crucial, to get to the point where you say, no, this is my life's path. I think this is what I try to do with my client. This is your life's path. Yes, these are the obstacles, the hurdles, the handicaps in a way that you've been given. And now can we find a way forward? And got to be there to help support. Who supported you through those years before you came into your man-up moment? So, so Landmark— so let's look at Landmark, because Landmark's methodology is just incredible. They, they get people, they can trans— you transform in 3 days. I, I've seen people in the rooms, and I've done lots of work there. I've done lots of their work, their, their methodology, their thinking, their technology. I've done years of it, and I've seen some extraordinary results from it for myself as well. My— what, what I'm doing now is all thanks to the creator. Werner Erhard was the guy who created the Landmark back in the '70s. And a lot of my work is based upon their kind of methodology and thinking with my take on it. And it's what they— the results that they get very quickly. They get results, they transform very quickly, but then it's maintaining the work. And absolutely, you've got to do it, haven't you? It's like you just— so they, so they've got various different programs running. And so as I come out of that building, never to be the same again, I had to, I had to maintain it. So I went and did everything that they was doing. I've done loads and loads of their programs, and I've, for years and years and years, I mean, I've done the 4. I'm actually reviewing the Landmark Forum very soon. It's a conversation that I've, that you enter into, and every time you enter into it, you're a different person anyway. So I'm, I'm a lifelong learner. I'm willing to go and look and consider things, because I love that. I love the subject matter. I love the topic. Just fascinates me, like, like yourself. It's just, I find it so interesting with people. So interesting why we do what we do and how we ended up the way we ended up. What's that about? Why, why is that? And I— so what, what the Landmark Forum allowed me, it gave me an access to a new future. It opened something up for me to go. I had to then go and grab it do the work. But it just opened up something for me, and that's what I do with my guys, is giving them an access to a new future that they don't even know is available. Okay, so let's focus now on Man Up itself. A, where I love the title myself. I'm in the world of comedy, as you know, and it's very masculine. Uh, Man Up is, in a way, it's for both men and women, isn't it? That is, because it's to get up and face whatever challenges you've got and just face it, deal with it. But so then where did it all come from? And so, so, man, yeah, the man up concept, the thinking behind it was I was a man down. So hence the title Man Up. When I was going through my tough times, those first 2 years of my retirement, the worst 2 years of my life It was painful, really suffering. So I had to man up. But when I say man up, I don't mean be aggressive, be domineering. I don't mean that. So the title is very controversial and it's not PC, and— but it does what it says on the tin. And it's maybe— but the root to it is maybe not what you think is, because to be a true man, I believe, is having the ability to show your emotions, to be vulnerable, to be in communication communication, to be willing to listen, to be willing to give up being right, give up dominating, domineering. Just give that stuff up and be, and be with our masculine side, but also be with our feminine side as well, and have the, the willingness to, to look at either side. And that's— so that's how it all got— it was so from, from the— when I did the forum, then I did the work, then I did the speaking. So I speak at conferences courses, and then, then that evolved into coaching, and then it evolved into a program based around the contents of my book. And I'm, I'm all about giving, because I'm now living my life— I'm happier, more fulfilled, and satisfied than, than I've ever been ever before. And that's what I wish for everyone to have. I want everyone to have what I'm experiencing, like a 10 out of 10 life experience. It's living that life, isn't it? It's living. Yes, being— it's living an authentic, true-to-yourself life, whatever that may be, whatever that is. Because we don't know what that is for each person. They're so individual. And I do think that men are suffering at the moment. That's why I put it in my introduction. We cannot— you know, there's a part of society, and I speak to certain people that say we don't need men. Yes, we do. As we talk, you know, you're— the energy that comes through your voice or is a very strong, passionate, determined energy. And it's like that sergeant, or when you're going into the battle, whatever your battle is. And we all sometimes have those wretched moments that you've got to face. If somebody comes behind you and says, like, if you say Billy, if you said Maria, go in, go forth and do whatever you need to do, it comes from you, that power, that energy, that vibration through your voice. And it's so powerful. And that's what you pass on to others. Yeah, it is passion, power, and purpose. That's what I talk about, is having the passion and the power, the inner power, and being on purpose. Yeah. And it's giving that to people. So I'm chatting to a guy today and we had the conversation. He's a 4 out of 10, a very successful guy, but he's operated at a 4 out of 10. So he goes out into the world through, through his front door in the morning, out into the world, operating at 4 out of 10. What I do is I give people an access to a 10 out of 10. So when he walks— when, when he does the work, we do the work together, we transform over time and get them to a 10 out of 10. Because one of my, one of my clients I was working with today, he was the same. He was exactly— multi-millionaires, got everything, very successful. But he was operating at 5 out of 10. So then he's now a 10 out of 10. So his experience and everyone in his life, their experience of him is very different. He's more effective, he's more assertive, he's getting more things done. How do you do that? Do you look at one piece at a time? Do you look at how effective are you, how assertive are you? What are the— so, okay, let me ask you something that's quite, uh, we haven't spoken about this. But what— how would you approach a woman in the same dilemma? I, I would do it the same way, the ways that I do it with men. I've not found a woman that's man enough to take me on, if you know what I mean. But you know that women are assertive. They have to be. Absolutely. I'm really looking— I'm really looking forward to the day that I do my program with a woman. Absolutely. Because I, I would just go about it exactly the same way. And that is find— what, what do you have to find? Your mojo. That's what they call it, don't they? Your reason to be alive, your passion. That's part, that's part of it. But what you have to do is get all your shit out of the way first. Yeah, because how can you create on top of, like, with a cluttered, ineffective way of thinking and experience of life? So if you're a 4 out of 10, we've got to look at what is it that's not allowing you to be a 10 out of 10. What do you know that you're doing? Yeah, that's preventing you from feeling a certain way. Then we, then we kind of unravel, and it's so bespoke and so tailor-made because we're all so different. Okay, so when you're sitting inside yourself, uh, you can't see what the obstacles are. You don't know what's in your way. Yeah. How do you recognize that? How do you feed that information back to somebody? So we, we have conversations like we're having now, and I'm listening for What's Not Being Said is one thing, but we go through— it's a 12-week program. So I've— so in the book, there's a— I create a success model. So there's a negative and a positive cycle. So if you imagine a triangle, and on the base of the triangle is discipline and dedication, at the point of the triangle's desire. That's the positive cycle. So that's what had me become a world champion. Self-discipline, dedicated overtime to fulfill on my desire. I was really clear, that's what I wanted, my desire. And it was a burning desire, I wanted that more than anything. So that's what had me succeed. But then upon my retirement, I ended up going into a negative downward spiral. So if you imagine an inverted triangle, at the base— at the top of that inverted triangle, you got doubt, distraction. At the point of it, you got disappointment. So I got caught up in self-doubt, distraction, ultimately ended up in disappointment. That's the negative cycle. So what we do, we go through, we work through all of those different factors in a conversation with images, and we go through a process. And, and then I support people. It's not like we just do a session and then it's done. I'm with them all the way through. It's very— it's in, it's in depth, but it's— and you know what, it's quite confronting because I've had people who have not gone the distance because it's 12 rounds. Yep. I've had guys who have pulled out early. They cut— they have— they haven't— just can't— they can't see it through because it's confronting and it's challenging to take yourself on. Do they always fall down at the same— at the same point? Oh, I've had one guy drop out after round— after the first round, one after 9 rounds, one after 6. So there's the variant— the variations. Yeah. And they find it just too much to look at themselves. It's just too much. They get confronted, or they, they, or they, they making it a reason. They got a reason or an excuse, or they get upset, or something, something gets in the way. Absolutely. Something is triggered. And often these are so deeply rooted, uh, in, you know, the work I do is to see the future for somebody, help them know that they have a great future ahead of them, see their best qualities, but also stuff comes up from their deep, deep past which triggers them. A word, somebody that can tell them that they weren't good enough, or they can't do this or that, and that doubt comes in. But it also can actually, as you say, it pushes you over. And I, and I'm, I'm, I'm going to be pushing, and I'm going to be shoving, and I'm going to be triggering, because that's what you're getting. Yeah. And every time we speak You've got this happy Monday attitude, haven't you? You know, whatever it is, it's hello Maria in that cheerful way, which is must, must, you know, people, uh, that must be for me. I love that. Yeah, because I'm quite cheerful. Uh, it's energy, it's energy. We are energy, aren't we? We are. That's what we're, that's what we're giving out to the world. We are. Not everyone can take it. It doesn't fit with everyone. It's find it— they must find it too much. And particularly, but you can do that because you've done it, you've lived through it, you've pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, you've come through that well that you fell into, and you've climbed up that side that's been muddy and slippery and dark and destructive, and having lost everything and everybody, and you've turned your life around. And now you've got a much better life. I understand you've got a partner, you've got a good life. We're almost towards the end. I don't want to lose where you are now. How is your life now? How are you feeling now? As I said, happier, more fulfilled and satisfied than I've ever been. I now love myself, which I never did before. I can honestly say I love myself. I'm living a life of love, contribution. So I love myself, I love the future that I'm creating, I love the future that I'm designing. And that's, that's what has me feel a 10 out of 10. Yeah, because suddenly you find that you can create, you can design something, you are here for a purpose. Yeah. And, uh, Billy, where can people find you? BillySchwer.com. I'm on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a platform that I use a lot. I'm on Facebook and Instagram. I don't— I'm not really big into the social media stuff. No, but BillySchwer, S-C-H-W-E-R, BillySchwer.com. .com. Also, your book is— I presume, where can we find your book? That's— that'll be on that. You can get it on Amazon. You can get it— I'm just redoing my website, so you can get it there. But it's on— yeah, usually it's on Amazon. It's on Audible as well. You could listen to it if that's easier. Or if you cannot find Billy, get through to me, mariakampinska3@gmail.com or mariakampinska.com, and, uh, Billy can— you know, I'll make sure that Billy is in touch with you. But absolutely, your energy and your focus— and I really don't want lose the female effect here, the woman. Um, are you going to be doing workshops for women? I would love to look at doing that, definitely, because I do think that women need to understand the world that they're entering into. I've been in business fields forever, it's always been a natural part of my life, and I started my business in pubs and the Wild West of comedy, and I know what that feels like. But I needed to understand the male psyche, the, the domineering aspect, how to manage that. And I think somebody like you can really help women without diminishing their own abilities. I would enhance a woman's life so much, giving them so much value, getting it, getting a real authentic male side, but with being appropriate and being Just, yeah, just right. I get it. You got it. Yeah, super. So, Billy Shoa, this is Your Mind Matters. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska. I cannot thank you enough for this interview. You are a superstar, and I know you're going to transform so many people's lives. Thank you so much for allowing me to enjoy this conversation with you. Thank you for your time. It's always a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you.