Between the idea and the reality, between the motion and the act, falls the shadow. For thine is the kingdom. Between the conception and the creation, between the emotion and the response, falls the shadow. Life is very long. Between the desire and the spasm, between the potency and the existence, between the essence and the descent, falls the shadow. For thine is the kingdom. For thine is life is. For thine is— this is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends. This is the way the world ends. Not with a bang, but a whimper. Those are the words from T.S. Eliot's classical poem, The Hollow Men. It is the hollow men who are stuffed together without any connection. Not from the outside world, but from within, as a lack of connection to their self. How do we ensure that our lives end with a bang and not a whimper? And is it something we all seek? Can we find it by searching internally into our shadow, which not only holds our fears and repressed emotions but also our gold? Our search is often called our hero's journey. Which is our quest for self-identity, the search for our true voice, the voice to speak out, or our word or work where we leave a legacy which is unmistakably ours. The hero's journey is not a psychological concept concerning gender. It is a fact of life that we all have our psychological trials and our own path to self-realization. It is what Jung called individuation, We have the influence of our family, our social influences which can be overwhelming, and our own internal drive and our personality which at times clash and wrestle for independence and identity. It can be said that our soul is calling out for that recognition, not as a narcissist trait, that is mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all trait, but as a purpose for life. Our life's journey symbolically is like living on the proverbial ship which is taken down a fast or slow river. The river can take us into a territory which is unexpected and we have to steady our ship and recognize the course of our lives. The question is, when do we know when we are living our true authentic life and we are what Jung called whole, or in other terms, individuated? It is a psychological concept which recognizes our own separate personality, separate from our family yet united by love and blood, separated from our society yet united by common causes and community, which in Greek terms is called agape, as the love for humankind, and separated from our own true self, which Winnicott called our false self. Winnicott pointed out that having a very strong false self keeps people from acting according to their spontaneity and with creative impulses. They feel unoriginal and empty at times without knowing why. The false self is not the same as our persona, which is the mask we all wear at times. Jung used the term persona as the individual system of adapting to the world. It's a kind of forced behavior upon a person by the family or by extension forced by society. The false self is separate from our true self, yet seemingly connected to the gaze of the outside world, but without the élan vital, that is the spark of life, the joy of existence, because our true authentic self is not being expressed. It's like a plagiarist living on the words of others and never having been able to write their own true original words. Why is this difficult to activate our true self? Although we have our internal separation, we also need to have a connection with everyone in the invisible psychological area called the collective unconscious. It is that metaphysical connection that belongs to us all. How do we know what we can achieve in life? At times we find our true voice later in life. But one thing is clear, that creativity is the medium that can reflect our own spark, our true voice, our true creativity. Yet when we find our true self, and often it comes through our creativity, a new lease of life emerges. We feel differently, we are connected to our world within, we are no longer hollow. Today my guest Tamara Constantin was a very successful vice president in the oil industry and played classical piano, but her true creativity was born out of her discovery to compose. Tamara is here to tell her exciting story. Welcome, Tamara, and can you give us a little overview of your background? Thank you, Maria, for inviting me to your wonderful show, and to give you a very brief summary about my life is that I was about 5 years old when I started playing the piano, like myself trying to play, and my mother took me to the music teacher, and then all my music career started from that point when they discovered that I have a talent. I went to special music school in Georgia, which was one school in whole republic for gifted children. After that, I graduated music academy, then I graduated university. After that, I was very fortunate to start working as a TV presenter and commentator on Georgian television. I'm just trying to briefly go through. I know, it's such a fascinating history. Then I moved to England because I got married, and I was working for 23 years in oil industry. And last, about last 10 years, I started to write music, and I'm extremely enjoying this process. So that's the very brief summary. It's like, it's like very brief history of Tamara Constantia. Exactly. But I Let's say straight away that you are going to be performing towards the end of February, aren't you, with Valeria Jones? Yes, I'm performing, and we have 24 concerts to perform in one month. It's very intensive tour, but very exciting because it's a tour in the most cathedrals, and it would be stunning venues, and it is very, very interesting program, so. And you're performing with 3 other women. Are you called the Three Graces? Yes, I founded the little trio called Three Graces. I'm very fortunate to play with, and I've become— we become quite, quite good friends with very prominent cellist and talented lady, Georgine Lloyd-Webber, and also equally talented violinist, Ellie Soo. So we are going to perform all my compositions, which is the most exciting thing. And that is so exciting. It is. I cannot tell you, that's why my whole introduction is about that ability to create something. But before we come into that, you were brought up in Georgia, not an easy country to have your upbringing, uh, because we mustn't forget that I think the whole point of my program, Your Mind Matters, as I'm a psychotherapist, Dr. Maria Kublinska, you know, this is very pertinent in every part of our lives. It stays with us, doesn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. Yes, I was brought up, like you said, in Georgia, and it was part of the Soviet Union, and, uh, it's completely different from, from, uh, the life in United Kingdom. So for me, it was a total, like, a revelation how the life is in the West and how life was in former Soviet Union. Yes, it was. Then we had lots of challenges, of course, but I go— I was brought up in loving family, and that was the nice thing, that they— all the difficulties, all the— I can't, I can't say problems, but it It was hidden problems, yeah, more than, than like obvious problems. So you overcome by being the part of the family who loves you and who cares about you. But yes, we had, we had like being the part of Soviet Union, we had the challenges. Well, I, I think every— my parents, as I said to you before, are Polish background, and I know I've still got family in Poland, so who came through, I think, you know, the whole communist Soviet system at that time. So I understand the oppression, the, you know, sort of social political oppression that you had to go through, and also that, you know, creativity wasn't given the freedom that we have had in England. We are so lucky in the UK to have had the freedom that we've had, and in the West. And I think that regardless of what people think that sometimes— and I do think this is a— can be a problem with therapy as well— that sometimes people forget that this social system and political system can impact on people's mental health. I'm not saying it did with you, but it can do, and it's often ignored. But the political status was such that you had to be careful of what you said, and that the state was much more important than the family. But as you said, you've got a loving family But there were restrictions, there's no question. Oh, that's absolutely— well, even when I was very, very young, I would say 5, 6 years old, I do remember, unfortunately, my family had to suffer during the Soviet times. My grandfather was imprisoned as a political prisoner for 13 years, so he spent his 13 years in gulags. And so this aspect was always there because when even when he came out from the prison and he was rehabilitated, despite that, there's always the fear. My mom was always telling him, oh, don't be against the regime, don't be against the regime because you will end up back into the prison. So I always remember this these words and the fear from my mum that she was always worried that my grandfather would say something wrong again. And be taken away. Yeah, because there is that concern, isn't there? And I am, you know, sort of, if people want to, who listen to this, want to know more about that time, there are a number of books, and one of the primary writers was Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who wrote about the Gulag, and the cancer ward and so on. And one of my most— one of those books that I've read, one of the most powerful ones, is A Day in the Life of Ivan Danesevich, which is a very small book, but it still gives you an idea of the hardship. Because as I said to you, my family were in gulags, my father and mother were. So I know the repercussions of any prisoner of war, you know. So I know that it can affect a family, and on a psychological level, it can actually pass on the post-traumatic stress onto the children. Yes, definitely, definitely. It was— and when I came to England, it was like, my goodness, there is an order, there is security, there is, there is freedom. Though I have to say that when Gorbachev came into power, it was like a fresh air from there, that we could have had our opinion. It was freedom to, uh, it was possible to move abroad and completely different sort of environment. So it was a little taster from how was the normal life. And then when of course I came to England, I started to appreciate absolutely everything. And I always say that probably I and many other people who were not born in this country appreciate things which we have here than the people who are born in this. Yes, totally. I must say, yeah, we don't take things for granted. Absolutely, absolutely. I must say, of course, everybody can complain that this is wrong or that's wrong, they don't want to do this or don't want to do that, they could have more of this or that. But overall, in the great scheme of political, you know, countries that you live in, the UK is about the best country, in my opinion, you can live in. And I am a big fan of living here, and I can hear you're the same, and we both understand why. Absolutely, yeah. But juxtaposed against the political system, you were at a very young age playing the piano. Now, to get into the most exemplary sort of school for pianists, you have to, you know, be disciplined, you have to rehearse, you practice. You can't take that for granted, can you? You can't play No, that was— I think all musicians will agree with me that if you want to achieve something in music, you have to dedicate like practically your life to this subject. And I remember when even I was very young at school, and when children of my age, my friends, were playing outside and, you know, enjoying the life I was like practicing and practicing hours and hours. And even during the summer holidays, my mom had to hire the piano wherever we were going. And I had to religiously play every single day for 5 hours, even on the summer holidays. And it, in some ways, the childhood was— my childhood was robbed. But that's how it is. If you are trying to be an artist, you have to dedicate you to your subject. So you do, you cannot— I mean, it's not an easy feat to learn to master the piano, the piano in the way that you have. And let me say, now that you've composed, you now have an album that you have put together and it sounds absolutely amazing. I've listened to it and I was so inspired by your work because as— actually, I hadn't read fully your bio, but I said, oh, it's got a touch of Rachmaninoff to it for me, which has that sensitivity, the romance, the depth, the beauty. And as I read it, it said it as well in your actually biography. But it's such a wonderful piece. Tell us about you writing that. Well, this is my third CD I have launched in November, and I do try to— because I was classically trained, I do appreciate all the masters of music. And yeah, I can't say that I, I have one favorite composer, but I would say that, like you said, Rachmaninoff Chopin, Bach, and Beethoven, and Mozart. I would put the first 5, 6 my most favorite composers. But what I try to write is more melodic, more melodic compositions, because sometimes these days in modern music you have more structural complexities, and sometimes it's lacking a bit of melodies. They emphasize more to the, like, structural difficulties. And but I thought, no, I want to write more melodic pieces with this, like the people who could listen my compositions, they would relax, they would, they would remember these melodies. That's That is my sort of objective, to give for my listeners the pleasure of listening my music. So I hope I'm achieving— yes, it does. Because I, I, it's called, you know, your single is called Georgia with Love and your album is Resilience. And I'm sure we can find that on Spotify and other places. So please listen to it because I think people at the moment are begging crying out for something that lifts their spirit, lifts their soul. And I think that's the intention, wasn't it, behind your writing? Absolutely, because I wrote quite majority of my— the, the compositions for this particular— my third CD during the lockdown. So I called this CD Resilience because we humans are definitely resilient. We are— we can get through the hardships or difficulties. And look what we came out from pandemic. So we are very strong, and we were united against this evil, I would call it, this common evil. So we— I wanted to demonstrate that Yes, we could find the light at the end of the tunnel, and there are quite uplifting compositions, and I'm sort of very pleased that this— in some ways I used this lockdown period for the creativity, so which was quite good. And your son was away, wasn't he? So you couldn't see him or his family. Yeah, I missed them very much. I still have not seen my son for a few years now because he lives in Dubai with his family. And so I, yeah, I dedicated one composition like longing for youth, which is like, I think it was probably every family were longing for their loved ones during this lockdown. Yes, so it's not, I was not the exception. And so, no, but how to translate that into something creative is the exception. How to create something that evokes a feeling of, as you say, safety, understanding, connection, is a big talent. That is your soul speaking, really, isn't it? Oh, thank you. Yes, I do— it's definitely coming from my soul, whatever I write, because I'm always joking at home with my husband that I cannot sing. I can sing, but I don't have voice, strong voice to sing. But it's— I always say that it's my soul is singing. From my soul, I am putting my soul music into the paper. So that's what it— yes, it's coming from inside of me, the music. Yes. So the way you found that you could write, or the way you started writing, can you tell us the story? Because it's quite a humorous story. It's quite, quite amusing. Yeah, very. Because I was— my husband and myself, we went on holidays in Canada, and we were visiting the recital, church recital, which is organ concert. Beautiful, beautiful concert playing all the traditional composers, and I absolutely adore church organ music. But one of the compositions, it was contemporary, and it was— sorry to say, but it was absolutely awful. It was Very atonal. No, I would call it very— it was the music was compared with cacophony. And I turned to my husband and I said, darling, even I can write better than this. And I honestly, Maria, I have never wrote even one bar of music. I have never been trained to write music. I never been encouraged to write music. So that was absolute joke and absolute, like, statement, just simple statement. Even I can write better. And my husband turned to me and he said, why don't you? And I said, okay, I'll try. It was just a little bet between us. And when I came back to England, I really was— suddenly I said, oh, let me try. And it was the day when I realized that I can write and I can create something. And that was the day when I kind of— now I can't stop writing. It's a constant inside of me, this desire to create and to write music. So it's— where does it— how does it start? Do you get an idea? Do you get a feeling? It's— I would say that I don't know how other composers composers, right? But I think most challenging thing is to the beginning, to start, give the— like to give the foundation of the piece and few bars. And once you start writing few bars, then the melody evolves. But sometimes if you think of something, for example, I've got one composition called Storm. And this is because we are living in Dorset and we're living just so we are overlooking the sea, which is amazing views. And sometimes when I look the stormy weather, it is— you just want to write something with, with, with to describe this amazing nature, the, the, the power of nature. So this also environment definitely helps to write. And I created, for example, my— on my second CD, I had the Dorset sketches, which I dedicated to different parts of Dorset, different little compositions. So yes, it's everything. It's like a combination, like probably mood, probably the environment, persistence, so, and then you come up with some kind of a piece of music. Yeah. Well, you see, you say that as if it's an easy thing to do because that's your life, because you've been playing since you were 5, but to the ordinary person, just to understand how to move your hands across the keys, because there are not that many keys, are there? No, there are only 7 notes and then you have to— it's amazing how it works. But it's not only writing music. I also, I don't know, it's by nature I do like interesting challenges. Not— I don't like bad challenges, but the interesting creative challenges. For example, I followed the footsteps of a French composer, François Gounod, who wrote his— created his most famous composition. That's how he became famous, actually, his Gounod's Ave Maria. So what Gounod did, he took Bach's Prelude No. 1 as a base and put on the top of this prelude the soprano voice. Like, he put the melody on the top of Bach's composition and created Ave Maria. So I followed his footsteps and I thought, oh, let me try what Guno did. So, and I also took the same Bach's Prelude No. 1 and created completely different composition with cello and violin, completely different melody. So it's practically, it's a merger of the old masterpieces, and you put your melody on the top. So this is quite challenging. So I did the same with Moonlight Sonata. I did the same with the Sonata Pathétique by Beethoven. So Chopin and Donizetti. So I do like this kind of challenges. Is from one composition you create different composition but without damaging the actual, the existing composition. So it's quite interesting. It's very interesting because they say that even the Beatles used classical music to some of their compositions. Yeah, yeah, but this is the way how you could demonstrate that music doesn't have boundaries. So if you imagine you take some— I mean, it's a very probably silly comparison— that one story and put on the top of this the wording of another story, it will be complete gibberish. But no, no, do you know what, Tamara, that isn't quite true, because they say there's only about 7 basic plots to stories. Yeah, well, maybe. So it's just— that's creativity, it's an amazing thing. It is a wonderful thing because I think the restriction, as you say, of all the template that you've got from a composer that you love and to build on that is such a wonderful thing, isn't it? Because there's that familiarity that people might have but also the extraordinary ability to make it unique. To bring it into life in a different time and a different place. Yes, absolutely right. And to bring in a different light. Yeah, a different light. Yeah. And a different tone. Yeah. And but do you ever struggle? It is not easy to write this kind of thing so completely, you, because you, you don't want to ruin the masters, because this is the one thing you should not be doing. Like you You try to, how can I say, complement with your music the composition which is written by Beethoven. Probably if Beethoven would have listened, probably he would be screaming, how do you dare to destroy that? But honestly, the people are so complimenting because you put the melody which complements this, this, this, then you stick to the base which is the— I try not to change any notes. Of existing compositions. So yes, it's a fascinating process in some ways, but it's not easy. It's not easy to harmonically match it. Yes, so it's easier to write your own compositions, of course. Yes. Well, I don't know. I don't know if that's true, but I think because your second nature is music, you understand the piano, you know that you're in tune with the piano, And, you know, so you would say that, but where's your most self-critical? What do you criticise the most? And also, who do you let— who listens to your work first? Oh, that's very interesting that my husband is my biggest critic. So I do value his opinion immensely because he has not been trained as a classical musician. He was, when he was young, he was playing in pop groups just as saxophone. So he has the music, uh, with the understanding and love, but he's never ever— but the subtleties of music and the little details, he's got amazing ears. So as soon as I write something, come on, come and listen to me what I have done, and he gives me always the such an objective opinion that I do value his opinion. And, uh, it's nice to have the, the person, the husband who, uh, appreciates. And, and if it was not him, I definitely would not be where I am today because he's been supportive from the day one. And that's— is that because you're in a similar sort of field, the field of music? No, because he was not only an amateur musician, he doesn't even play now. When he was very, very young, 18 or 19, he was playing in like a little pop group. No, no, no, no, he has nothing to do with music, so it was only like having fun to play in this little group. But no, he, I think it's he's got the natural ear, and despite not being classically trained, he can feel, he can understand, and he can appreciate, and he can criticize. So he's my biggest critic. So, and do you— are you self-critical? Of course I'm self-critical, yes. But how bad is it? Because I'm, you know, very often people struggle to actually put something on paper or to bring something to the light so other people can see or hear, because they say it's not good enough, it's not good enough, it's got to be perfect. No, I, I don't know if it's, uh, but I, I'm, I'm a Virgo, and they say the Virgo is perfectionist. And I do like to, if I do something, I like to do it properly. But if I don't like, for example, the, the way, for example, if I play, sometimes you don't play as well as always you want to play, even then I'm just beating myself up that, oh, it was not as good as that. Maybe people like it, even when you have guests here and at home and they want to listen, and if there is the little thing, if I don't play the same tone or the same feelings or same some little nuances, so I'm so unhappy that, oh, I have not done it properly. So yeah, that's very physical. Yes. But when you, when you first started to perform, how— when was your very first concert? Because if you were at school at 5, did they insist that you start performing quite quickly? Yes, yes, this, uh, we started to perform probably when we were like 10, 11, from 10, after 10. So Yes, we used— you have to have concerts going on the permanent basis, then you had to have your solo concert, then I played with symphonic orchestra. So yes, it's like a gradual thing that— but this was really a special school for like gifted children. It's like it's— it was a boarding school, but I didn't have to board because I lived in the capital. And, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, yes, they used, you start to get to this, used to, to this stage at quite early age. Yeah. So, which is good. Oh, it's imperative, especially if you're a composer that performs, which you are. But there you are, as, uh, growing up And yet you went into television. How did that transition occur? That was a very, very exciting job. Yes, it sounds exciting. Exciting, very also addictive because you start, goodness, it is totally new, like, How can I say? A new environment when you end up on television, you know. You have to learn how to behave, how to put yourself, how to— I mean, the first funny thing when I started broadcasting, you know, I have the habit of blinking my eyes because you have to get used to the lights. And then with the time you get adapted with the, um, you get so used to it that then you, you could even go live programs. So there it was, very exciting, very, uh, once you start broadcasting in one program, then everybody wants you to do the other programs. And yeah, it was very, very, um, addictive. But I, I was— I started as a first female political commentator, which was very challenging because it was, uh, I stepped into the male environment. Yes. And sort of had my share of challenges to fight my way through this. What was the biggest challenge there in the male environment? I mean, it was— it's not just in Georgia, that whole patriarchal masculine environment. Yeah, uh, was everywhere, but every country has their own tone and nuances, but what was the most challenging that you found? Challenging was the some kind of obstruction, I would say. The male commentators were trying to obstruct me and try to sort of shift me away, but it was a good thing that there was the tendency that they were very happy to have one political commentator, lady. I didn't give up, and, uh, well done, I was, um, I was quite sort of strong and persistent that I showed my will to carry on doing this. And then I established myself, and it was, it was absolutely fine. So did it take a while to establish, but once you were established, that sort of struggle, that obstruction, those obstacles had gone? I would say that that was first few months to try, try to sort of diminish. Yeah, unnerve you, make sure that you didn't look as good, I'm sure. Yeah, yeah. So this young female comes into the, you know, male business. So it was a bit funny, but yes, so like— So tell me, in the political world, when you were doing your presentation over here, for example, recently, and we've noticed that a lot more, they're very, very cutting, and they're very, um, oh, very offensive. Aren't they? When we have political presentations here, they're always trying to undercut the politicians, quite aggressive, isn't it? Passive-aggressive tone here. Was it the same out there? No, it was not that, because everything was under complete censorship in the past. So, I was the one who was practically presenting the news, which was The material was coming from the central, like, that was the Moscow, the press center, the TASS it was called. And we used to get the telexes, and then we were the ones who were sort of modifying these little telexes in our sort of the comfortability and presenting the news. We were not allowed to just go a little bit left or right. We had to stick to our, the main theme. But no, we did not have as much freedom definitely as the journalists and the presenters have the freedom now. It was very much more, more sort of more in the level, modest level, then you, you couldn't interrupt so much, or you didn't— you couldn't do that. It was more the small, more staged, uh, like presentations we had. And so we knew what we had to do. So, um, yes, but you still had to— you still had to do it well. Where did you— where do you get your tenacity from? Because we're going to move into— you've already mentioned that you were in the oil business and now you've changed your career again, and you have this ability not only to change your career but also to do very well in the change of career. Where does that ability come from, do you think, in your family? I, I don't know whether I— I've got a brother who is the complete opposite of me, is more relaxed. It's like we are From the same parents but different children. But I think I was— I would say that the, this whole desire to be successful in what you do, doesn't matter what I do, you know. For example, I don't like cooking, but if I cook something, I would like to cook it well. So if I do something, I would rather do 100— give 100% of my sort of ability and attention. So I would say that this was partially because my musical upbringing and the discipline which I had to put into this sort of art, it gave me the desire to to do well, to achieve well, and to get somewhere. So, and I try to sort of implement this kind of desire in all different, like, fields. Whatever I do, I want to do it. There's no point doing things which you are not doing well, so you have You have to love and you have to put your heart into some things. And do you think you were like that because, um, you were, you were a woman who was capable in the world of men? And in your school, were there very many women there, were very many girls there, or was it evenly spread? Yeah, no, no, at school we had more women than boys because it was musical school. And like, we had in our one class, we 7 girls and 1 boy. So, but then, then, then with the, with the, then, then we had more boys. So later on, but no, I don't think, I think it's more like a nature to be more. Even when I was young, they are coming, I had the responsibility. So I used to like to do things well. I think it's more like a nature, and then when you become grown up, you realize that this kind of like a quality of your nature is quite good because— and I'm not a lazy person, that is another aspect of, I would say, the human beings, which is very important. And if you are not lazy, you are really— you do achieve more than when the people are— No, it's very true. It's very true that you— in— I don't know if you know the psychological types Jung created, and one of them is somebody who organizes, and one, one is where somebody is much more easygoing, flexible, last minute. And the reality is If you plan, you get more done. If you're disciplined, you get more done. You have to be disciplined, and particularly in the times of stress. They say that when you're stressed, you should really be disciplined. Get up at a certain time. It's like when you're in the army, they tell all soldiers, officers, get up at a certain time, go to bed at a certain time, be disciplined, because that almost helps you create, um, norm, create order out of chaos. Because when things are different, when you've got the— as we had with the COVID everything had changed suddenly. So you've got to create your own order. But for you, you had order. The keyboard gives you an order, doesn't it? Yeah, I had, I had order. Yes, I do like order in my life. Yes, generally. And And yes, it also helps me to go through difficulties also. And to— it's when you— well, I wouldn't say that I'm very— I have order with my paperwork. I'm not. I'm quite messy with the invoice there, this and that. But in the— how to say? Important things I like to have an order. So yeah, yeah, so that's, that's the most important thing. People always assume that people who get things done are super tidy. I've never noticed that myself. But Tamara, what did your parents do? Oh, my father was an engineer and my mother was a teacher, but when we were growing up, my mom gave up the job and she dedicated dedicated her life to bringing us. And is it just you and your brother at home? Yes, the two of us. And she was very, very strict woman, and I think that sort of had the influence in my upbringing. So, and has that followed through? Who are you, who are you like in your family if you were to now look at your family of, you know, your parents? My father, probably. Yeah, more, more, more, because my mom was much stronger. She was very formidable lady, and my father was much softer and more sort of, uh, giving and forgiving person than— giving and forgiving. Yeah. So was she, was she strict and Was she very disciplined with you? Yes, she was very strict, disciplined, very loving too. So she had a good balance. So I was scared of her too, but also was comforting in her. So I think it was a good combination, like, to bring up children in the sort of, uh, so whatever, whenever we were like doing well, for example, at school, we had always some kind of remuneration. So it's not that you could have anything you want. No, we had to work for our sort of— the environment we were growing up, it was very important that your education was paramount. And so we had to work and study very hard and to be rewarded by something, whatever it was. Like, so nothing was given for nothing. Like, we were not spoiled, but we were— like, parents were quite sensible. Yes, because over here they've got a new system, or a new system had developed where children were never allowed to fail and children were always praised regardless of what they did. And I I don't think that's very healthy because I think children are inherently aware of when they do well and when they don't do well. True, true, absolutely, yes, it's very— yeah, children are absolutely— you're right, agree with this. And I think it makes it, you know, sort of— children have got this wonderful ability, uh, to see things that other people don't, and I think sometimes we over emphasize, um, certain elements. We, we mollycoddle children sometimes, um, and it's not necessarily healthy for them. True. And did you— what was your attitude with your son when you— he was growing up? Um, with my, my son was also, again, because of my upbringing, uh, when we came to England, so Uh, he was 6 years old, 7 years old, and, um, I just told him that, look, you have to help yourself. If you want to be successful, you have to work hard. And I, I guess he inherited from me that this kind of like a discipline, I guess, that he He went to the state school, state grammar school, which was very, very difficult to get because there was a huge competition. And from that school, he went to Oxford University and he studied the law. And to study law at Oxford University is exceedingly difficult. Yeah, he speaks 7 languages fluently. Quite, quite, quite. So he is, he is your son? He's my son. If they say he is his mother's son, that is who he is. He's my son. What did you study at university? Linguistics. Oh, you did as well? Very well. No, no, no, he studied law. Oh, he studied law. What did you study? You studied— I studied Yes, but you, you know, you said he was good at languages. How fabulous! Yes, it's just fascinating, yes, but yes, it's interesting how life sort of gives you all this kind of surprises and gifts of life, and if you can see the world like that, because I think that, you know, regardless of everything, you were brought up in quite a difficult environment. Georgia was not an easy country to live in. You had the discipline, you weren't given a childhood, as you say, you couldn't play, so you didn't have what we call a normal childhood over here. But you moved from television, you were given an opportunity on television, and then you became a VP, a vice president, of an oil company. How did you manage that process? How did you manage all the people in there, and what were your gifts to enable you to do that? I think that one thing leads to another, and once you open the one doors, then, then other doors are opened. And I was very, very fortunate that I met people who wanted to create the business in former Soviet Union, and I was the one who like opening the doors for this company, creating the new projects, introducing the people, dealing with the diplomacy of the, the company. And we worked all over the places. We worked in Russia, Ukraine, and Central Asia, Georgia. So, but the companies were based in America, in in Canada, in Norway. So it was huge amount of traveling, and that was the worst part of the job, because when you are at the early stage of the joining the companies, it's very exciting. Despite that, it was very comfortable travel, like all business first class, sometimes private jets. And like everything goes, but traveling is the most tiring and most, I would say, boring thing. It really knocks you down when you have to sleep less nights to get from A to B. And that, that was, I would say, the negative part of the job. But Otherwise, it was very interesting and stimulating job because, you know, I used to meet the very interesting prominent people like ambassadors, the ministers, prime ministers, presidents. And so you, you deal with the sort of negotiations, diplomacy, and try to introduce the company to the new country. Yeah, it was, it was fascinating job. It was interesting. And how did you manage the diplomacy? Because there you are at such a high level, and I think that a lot of people have never experienced high-level diplomacy negotiations, because diplomacy and negotiation go hand in hand, don't they? Because the Middle East peace talks happened through diplomacy. Yeah, you know, so much happens through diplomacy. How did you— did you find that you were natural? Did you find that because your father had been in a Gulag and your mother was saying, "Be careful, don't say the wrong thing," that that echoed in your mind somewhere? I would say that it's paradoxical, but being a woman in that— when I found myself in that environment, it was helpful to, for example, if there were like any tense situation between sides, like that they couldn't agree with something, being a woman, I was sort of balancing the situation between two sides. I was bringing some kind of peace. And, and they— because I was not like a 18-year-old young girl. I was already matured adult, and I was— it was, how can I say, um, I was bringing the peace between like two different parties. And you learn through diplomacy, and I really enjoyed this, this role. And I think I was quite successful because, especially when I was dealing in the parts of Soviet Union, I knew the mentality of people, I knew the culture, I knew the language. So it was like a mutual respect between me and who was mediating to like different parties. No, it was fun from that aspect and interesting, stimulating. I learned quite a lot about oil business and, you know, just it's a fascinating science how the oil is extracted. And so it's a learning curve in life just generally and it's exciting. Thank you. But you make it sound so easy, but let's face it, you know, sort of to be able to do what you do and what you did there is quite high pressure, isn't it? Because you, it's, you have to be in that moment and handle the opportunity because it takes a little bit of organizing to get everybody together. You've still got to go with a proposal and somebody has to have the alternative to that proposal. So did your life in front of the piano performing, being under stress of the pressure of performance, help you in those moments as well, that you were used to pressure? Definitely, definitely. You get, you get used to, to challenges. And, uh, like, you perform in front of the people, you're still always nervous. And me having each, like, in high-profile meetings, I was always like the inside of me, I was always trembling and shivering inside of me. But then you learn, you learn, and you acquire this little sort of details how to manage yourself, how to manage the meetings. And yes, of course, it's, it's, it's, it was like executive summary to say that it was exciting, but deep down it was It's a very nerve-wracking experience when you first time meet the president and you handshake. But now we're almost towards the end of this amazing discussion with you, Tamara. Thank you. Thank you. But coming to— before we go, you are going to be performing towards the end of February, and you do— you're doing a tour. Yes. And you've put all, apart from Alid, you've put the Three Graces together. Yes. So you oversee this, in fact, you're like, are you like a conductor? You've brought all the women together to perform your pieces. Uh, yes, there's like this, my two wonderful artists are going to play with me and, uh, they are playing my compositions and I think we are a wonderful team together. 3 of us, and we will be traveling huge amount of miles because the tour is all over the country. We go up to the Midlands, then come down to south, then I go up again to, up to Scotland, then you come down. It's a, uh, and it's 24 concerts in 1 month, so it's very intensive. Yeah, that's very intense, very, very intensive schedule. But, uh, we are— yes, it's— you could say that conduct us, 3 ladies we are, but we are a good team, we are a good team. No, how lovely, because touring is not easy, but you're used to travel. Yes, the problem is different, yes. But however, so you're performing, just to remind everybody, with Alasdair Jones, and your work, your new latest album is called Resilience. Yes. And you know, sort of you're performing with the Three Graces. Yes. And it's all your composition, and you've got a violinist and a cellist, and what a wonderful trio to listen to. Oh, thank you. How so exciting, and what a story, what a life, Tamara. And they're just the beginning of something so exciting for you that you are putting your own creativity into the world. Yes, thank you. It is so amazing, and people will be listening, and that will be such a joy. I can't wait to hear how you feel when you do that, because to have the applause at the end, it must mean so much. Yeah, it's, it's so very important when it's your own work to actually have an audience that says, I love this. Not only that, you've got two amazing performers with you, and you're supporting a wonderful artist themselves. So Tamara Constantine, can I just say thank you so, so much for joining me on Your Mind Matters. I'm Dr. Maria Kempinska, and please listen to Tamara Constantine on Spotify or buy her tickets. Thank you, thank you, Maria.