Welcome to this week's edition of Free Your Mind with LKJ. Let's talk about it. With the new year beginning and New Year's resolutions made, etc., we have seen in the current news and around and in our own homes and the joyous celebrations we start, and already we have seen Um, the first murder committed in January. Um, it's often in my mind as a journalist, what causes somebody to commit such an offense or any criminal activity? So today I am most fortunate to have a wonderful, very highly intelligent professional lady called Anne McKessney that will be joining us on this show for a whole hour. Anne currently works for the Scottish Child Abuse Inquiry as a Consultant Forensic Clinical Psychologist and has done for almost 3 years and 11 months, or, well, basically 4 years. So I'd like to introduce to you, the listeners, this wonderful lady that's going to free her mind and take us on a journey in this hour to explain psychology, criminal abuse, subjects which are very, very hard to talk about if you're the person that cannot speak out and you can't get help or in our justice system. So furthermore, um, is to have a clearer insight when, as myself as a journalist, may report on a criminal activity, that for you the listener that follows that and listens to these shows, and why we do Free Your Mind, let's talk about it, because everybody has a voice, everybody has the right to speak, everybody is entitled to reach out, have support, and have a network against them. So on this, I'm going to introduce you and say good morning, Anne. Oh, good morning, Kendall, and thank you very much for that lovely introduction and for the invitation to speak on your show. I'm deeply honored. Thank you. It's pleasure's ours and for, um, womensradiostation.com and for all the listeners of this show. The show that we do, um, have multi, uh, awards to our name because we believe in the voice and hearing the voice and working with professionals and bringing professionals onto the show like yourself, so that for people in layman's terms that don't understand— and it is a minefield. We all train psychologists. Yes, I've done forensics, but— and I've done psychology and criminal psychology, but I've only done— although certificated in that, not to the degree that you've done. The reason I've taken those subjects was when I do interview, then I can bring myself onto the same platform and understand terminology and some reasoning, and when I'm reporting as a journalist as well, so that gives me a clearer view or leads me on my story to get a result. But for you, you have to deal with the after-effects, don't you? Yes, yes, my job has been varied. I've been doing this— well, I qualified in 1986, so I've been doing this for a long, long time, and my job has— I've done various things. I've been very privileged in the, in the work that I've done. I was on the Scottish Parole Board for 2 terms. I was visiting psychologist at a female prison for 10 years, visiting psychologist at a young offenders, um, or a secure unit for young people for 10 years. Um, I've also worked for what— these have also been part-time parts of my main job. My main job was working with, um, female mentally disordered offenders, so I had a special interest in women who commit crime and who had severe mental illness as well. I retired from the NHS a few years ago and have also had a massive interest in how psychological trauma impacts on, on people. So I'm very privileged at the moment to be working with Scotland's Inquiry into Institutional Child Abuse. So if we start then, for the listeners to understand you as a person, if we may, as we open up and free your mind and we carry on this hour's show. Obviously, when I became a journalist, there's reasons why I've done that. You know, I like the story, I like search. My dad often says to me that I had a nose like a ferret. You know, if there's something going on or in the playground, I was always there because that was my line. So you often know as you're growing up through your childhood with support where you're going to go in life and what your journey is. Sometimes we vary off and then, you know, find a different direction. But for yourself, you've known, and from your qualifications straight there, is one road. And although your road is a very powerful, strong road which has different junctions on it, which your junctions are still connected to that main road. Like, you know, the parole board, which you said 2 terms. So for the listener, isn't that— that was about 6, nearly 7 years, the term for 2 terms. So obviously, for your terminology, just for the listener, just to explain that, you know, so it was 3 years and— sorry, 6 years and about 9, 8 or 9 months, wasn't it? So almost 7 years. So each Each term, when you sign up to the parole board, just while I'm on that subject, do you have to commit to that whole time? Yes, you have. Certainly, I don't know if the rules have changed now. I mean, this is quite a while, so I think I stopped in 2011, so what, 10 years ago. At the time, the Scottish Parole Board, you did 2 terms of 3 years back to back and weren't able to do another term without a significant break. But I was interested in what you were saying, Kendall, about why I chose this profession, and I think I have— I had what, you know, people have called train driver syndrome, and I was determined at the age of 14. I was always fascinated by how people behaved, and I was always very interested in speaking to people and hearing about their life story, but I think the most decisive point was my father was a consultant psychiatrist, now long retired, but my life was spent around psychiatric hospitals. I grew up visiting these places. Christmas Day was always spent with my father going around the wards with my brother, and I learned that really that phrase there, "But for the grace of God go I," was was very much in my head, in that I thought these people haven't had the opportunities that I've had, they haven't had the chances that I've had, and actually they're, you know, really quite sad in the way their lives have worked out. So that sense of being compassionate was really, really important and really grounded in me from a very, very early age. And I was fortunate enough that I was able to do my to do my clinical training and have met the most wonderful people along the road, really. Yeah, so obviously at the age, you know, you were saying, you know, for the listener, which obviously making such a decision at that time, as you said, for most of us Christmas Day, are enjoying the festivities, opening and wrapping presents, you know, which brings a lot of mental pressure if you was to look directly in these certain areas of certain families that Christmas brings alone. Yet for you as a child, and you may have unwrapped some of your presents from your father, but was a very grounded family in that, you know, this abundance of how many presents that we have to have under the tree, this gesture to outdo the next door neighbor, all the friends, etc., um, around us to be that your life was so grounded, to go into a mental unit, you know, psychiatry ward, which, you know, we've had them known as asylums, where you've been pushed away over years. When we look at people suffering with mental health, you were deemed as if you was basically like an alien, shut away. And, you know, when we look and we settle mental health, as you would have done yourself through that and how people are locked away as if we had some weird disease or something like that, or that person had, and they were never talked about in a family. Where now mental health is real and come to the forefront. But in the time that you trained, you would have been in the real hardcore part of dealing with families that, that person that was in that institution Absolutely, and I think our knowledge of— as in psychology and psychiatry— our knowledge of how mental health or mental illness develops and poor mental health, poor coping skills, has changed and developed hugely over the years. You know, we now recognise that for most people there has been some early trauma, some early disrupted attachment, some early difficulties which have led to this person becoming unwell, and it has led to people using drugs, people offending. Often it's— I'm not saying for everybody, there are the rare exceptions of where there has been some— excuse me— where there has been some offending, but there doesn't seem to be an obvious background of trauma or, or early developmental difficulties. But for most people, certainly, they come from a background of very, very poor early experiences. Yes, as you were saying, as we are, you know, discussing you at the age of 14, you, since you were born, and would have been brought up with a father that has studied the brain, mental health. So as a father you was encased in this wonderful cloth that he knew how trauma could affect somebody. This was his precious child, your mother, that's come through, you know, and watched you as you grow and obviously kept it very real for you that you did go and attend these institutions on Christmas Day to see, you know, because your father was still working, checking out, because Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Valentine's Day doesn't stop in a day of somebody that's suffering mental trauma. But in mental health, there are triggers, and things like Christmas do trigger an episode. And obviously, your father taking you along there was to ensure that his patients were fine, and obviously for you to learn. But like when we, we live in this rich Western world that, you know, when I took my own children to Africa and they saw the reality of that, you know, give them one sweet, it's like as if you've given them the whole world. So it's keeping people grounded. Now, for yourself, watching that made you determined, obviously, because you wanted to know, you wanted to hear their story. So looking at those people, you knew then, and then obviously going on is why you're so grounded and so good. Because you're passionate about it as well. You can see that in your course and what you do. It's not, I am a consultant forensic clinical psychologist and I'm going to come in here and I'm going to write a report, which you have done, where some of the legal side, you know, when we talk about the job you were in before that Scottish Child Abuse Inquiry, where you worked before, where you get reports ready, working with mental health, etc. So it is passion. So when you do deal with a person, you have to look at every aspect because things can derail people. Our voice can derail somebody in our tone, in our mannerism, and trying to be allowed to get in to that because you also— so if we go We've gone on from the university where you graduated from, and then your first position was? I was a clinical psychologist with a children and adolescent service in Berkshire. Okay, and what did that involve? I was based in Slough. Well, that was mainly dealing with children, actually. I It was children who had sort of behavioural problems, developmental problems, so everything from bedwetting right the way through to tantrums, adolescent acting out, early indications of mental illness in young people. And at that point, we were just beginning to recognise that the impact of being sexually abused had a profound effect on young people. So at that point, we were just beginning to understand. Great Ormond Street was setting out training for people to be able to recognise where there was indications of a child being sexually abused. So that was, that was beginning to start, and from there I came back to Scotland and worked in a service where I ran an assessment and treatment clinic for women who had been sexually abused in childhood. So there's been this thread of dealing with abuse and trauma throughout my career, and then I was fortunate enough to be asked to go and as part of a forensic job to work in Cornton Vale, which is our female prison in Scotland, and was the only one at the time. And there came across more and more women who were offending, who were most of them, to be quite frank, were what we used to call life sentence by installment, and that they were in and out of jail frequently because they just couldn't cope in the community. There was a few who had committed the more serious crimes, a lot within the context of domestic violence. So it was, it was really important. My role was to go in and help people to understand how best to help people cope within the institution. I have to say that, you know, most people who were in institutions are actually very comfortable there because it's often the only home they've known. What we know is that people who have been within the care system are more likely to end up within institutional care because that sense of being told what to do, when to get up, what to eat, where to go, not making decisions, is very comfortable for some people who've been in institutional care throughout their lives. And then going on there. So, again, within the Cornton Vale, it was fascinating, the number of women that I met who had really had very difficult starts. And you could see that actually at some point— and I don't want— I think it's always very difficult here not to come across as a wishy-washy liberal and to come across as somebody who doesn't have a clear idea. I think we have to be clear that if we understand the causes behind somebody's offending, we can then begin to work on how we can help them prevent that reoffending, how we can halt recidivism. If we don't have a formulation, a story in our heads as to why somebody has gone that particular path, we can't begin to help them to change that. And I think that one of the risks we often have is that we become— come across as too harsh, too judgmental, too ready to punish punish, which doesn't actually really make somebody not do something again. It's more likely to drive them into that mindset of thinking, I'm not worth anything, I'm only a bad person, I can only do bad things, and therefore perpetuate that cycle of offending. Yes, because, you know, when, you know, for when I've worked and chatted with people on this and with people that I know in the justice system— my friend's a magistrate, I've Barry says, both sides of the coin on that, with myself, with the mental health aspect that goes in. Because, you know, when I spoke with my friend who's a magistrate, she emphasized on the word of rehabilitation, that it was important. That's why they do certain things within the court, for them to go and visit jails to understand when they're passing these sentences on, the effects and what they're going into, because they do become— if we don't deal with rehabilitation, as you were saying, you know, they're lifers with installments, because they feel safe there. That's their family. Because what are you doing? You know, what are you doing? Let me out. I'm happy here. But the system says, "No, you have to go out," so they will reoffend because they can't fit in this world outside, so they reoffend to go back. Because, you know, when I interviewed somebody, I had to go and do a story for Journalism Factor and went into a prison to do an interview with this person, and they said, The governor told them as soon as they got into that jail, you don't have to wear a mask in here. Outside, everybody that you meet in that street have all got masks on. They hide behind a mask whether they're not happy with what their eating abilities are, are they a true friend, are they not, are they false, are they a thief, are they a liar, are they a cheat, are they normal, are they higher than you. When you're inside that institution, they're all equal. You've all committed a crime. You're all on the same balance in there, no matter— there's no hierarchy because I killed somebody here, or, oh, I just did this, because they become a family. And even though they squabble and fight, is what I've seen, is that they're comfortable, you know. And when I was interviewing, saying, you know, are you being treated well in here? Oh yes, yes, they were fine. They would sit all in this big hall and, you know, if it was— there's different categories, I think. I'm not sure how they work. There certainly are. I mean, there certainly would be attempts to keep particular offenders away from others. But can I just ask, are you aware of something called the Adverse Childhood Experiences scale, Kendall? No, I'm not. Oh, so this was developed initially in the States Just to cut a long, very long story short, there was a consultant physician who worked in weight management with the super morbidly obese in the States. Felitti was his name, and he became aware that people he was working with who had problems— they would manage to lose weight for a while but had problems with maintaining any kind of diet plan— had a lot of Childhood adversity. And he got together with a research team and they mailshot 17,000 people in the San Diego area who had private healthcare. Now you're talking quite a specific demographic, in that these were people living in the San Diego area who had a healthcare plan which was sufficiently well-funded to be able to think about doing research. And they asked people questions around Childhood Adversity, and they asked 10 questions around physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, around family circumstances, so whether somebody was being ill-treated within the family, if somebody was in prison, if somebody had mental illness. And of these people, what they found was that of people who had 4 or more of these incidents, and I would put you on to encourage you to have a look at— if you just look up ACE, A-C-E, if you look up that up online, and encourage your listeners to do the same, what they find is— I'm going to, while we're on now, I'm just going to, while you're discussing it, so I can bring this up. A-C-E. So what they found was that people with 4 or more had a heightened risk of certain physical illnesses. It led to people such as Nadine Burke. There was that wonderful film done by Jamie Redford, who's Robert Redford's son, called Resilience, which, which was doing the circuit a few years ago. And this wonderful film looking at how early childhood adversity had contributed to people developing physical illnesses, which was very, very interesting and very helpful because what they recognized is there's high levels of cortisol that course around people's brains, which make people's bodies, which make them more inclined to develop certain physical illnesses. But most importantly, from my point of view, people were— they might have been 4 times more likely to end up with some physical condition, but are 11 times more likely to end up in jail or to end up using violence or using crack cocaine. So this has brought a huge amount of interest. Scotland is particularly keen. We talk about ourselves as being an ACE-aware nation, so we're very very keen to be thinking about early adversity and how we can help mitigate children who are in these situations. But what my experience has shown is it's not just what happens to somebody, but what they make of it. So if somebody is unlucky enough to be brought up in a household where there is violence, where there is sexual abuse, where there's not enough to eat and inadequate clothing, and they think, oh my God, this is terrible, this is me, I don't deserve any better, this this is my life, it's never going to be any different, then they're more likely to go on and to get involved in drug use and then become involved in offending and perhaps to be further victimised again, because we know that women who are abused in childhood are 11 times more likely to be abused in adulthood. But what happens with some people, and this is where the role of therapists such as myself come in, is that what you want to do is to try and change that core belief around what's happened to them. So if you can get somebody to believe that actually they were in the wrong time at the wrong place, they were unlucky to have the parenting that they had, that it wasn't their fault that the babysitter chose to abuse them— if you can get them to see that actually they were children and were not responsible what happened to them, then you can begin to help them believe that they have a better chance and they deserve a better future than the one they've had before. Because how we interpret our world, how we're treated when we're children, is very much part of our— it's core to our attachment, and our attachment is core to how we relate to others and how we relate to the world around us. Yes, because obviously when you are a child and, you know, when we look at the wonders of pregnancy as a female going through to giving birth to this wonderful child, going through to your sensory skills becoming in at the age of 2 to 3, how the brain develops, going through to the age of 7. Then again, you know, as you're going into teenage puberty or being affected by that, you're being taught and you're learning for the first 3 from your parents, you know, or people that are in there. And as that child, you wouldn't know from 1 to 3 that you're being abused. And unless as you're going on through that and that abuse continued to go through, that child doesn't know. So when the parents are going out and say, for instance, it was the babysitter that would do this— and this is very highly sensitive, um, show that we're doing, but it's one which is unbiased, unjudgmental, and one where we have to express our voice and be free to talk this, to get to the actual depths of this problem to make things better, what you're trying to do and the facilities around you, is that that child doesn't know. And like you're saying, was being abused, to what time do they become frightened? And often when I've seen, and you're in a court and you're listening to these dreadful things that happen to children and adults, you know, but I'm just focusing on, on the child and bringing the fruit to the adult Lessons which are more likely, as you said 11 times, to face further problems, you know, with abuse as they're going through. But that child going through thinks, you know, for them when they're growing up and they're learning these skills and then going into puberty and changing into that, you know, where someone will, you know, will abuse them and then, you know, reward them. Oh, don't say this, don't, you know, don't tell them, look, I'll give you this if you do that. Don't say a word, or then the threats come in, and then a harder abuse comes in at that person. You dare tell, you know, and you know, this mind of this person that's going through, then into, you know, into teenage years, then into adolescence, where then they, they are surrounded a bit like the people in the institution that are reoffenders in the system of predatory is that they tend to be drawn to people like that. So is this one of the questions, is why? It feels familiar. It feels— when somebody starts treating you badly, it feels familiar. But I think we also have to really recognize that lots of people who've been in care and also lots of people who've been abused don't necessarily go on to commit further offending. And I think that's where it's interesting to think about what makes the difference And again, what we know, and research is showing this, is if people have, you know, just one secure attachment under the age of 3— so whether that's a neighbour, a teacher, a grandparent, an aunt, whoever it happens to be— if they have that one secure attachment, then they're actually able to think, you know, hold on a minute, maybe I am worth more than this. Because I think there's a big risk that we have of thinking— my experience is I've never met anybody who has, in my work, as it was in forensic clinical work, I've never met anybody who's been an offender who hasn't had some early trauma. Equally, I have met hundreds of people who have had early trauma who haven't gone on to offend and haven't gone on to use drugs, and the difference is actually they have a different core belief about what's happened to them. They think, you know what, that was wrong, I deserve better. I had some experience of somebody who treated me well and I liked that, so I know that that's what I need to gravitate towards. So I think we've got to be very careful that we don't automatically set people who've got adverse childhood experiences, we don't automatically assume that they're going to go on and offend, because that's a big insult to lots of people who manage to effectively turn their lives around, and often not not with intervention from people like myself. Often it's been through other contacts such as teachers or, you know, other family friends, whoever it would happen to be. So I think it's— this is such a complex area that— and this is where it's good your program's covering this— that we have to be careful that we don't create simplistic rules around it. No, quite rightly. And that's where, you know, we are speaking openly and freely on that, as you were saying, because, you know, as you're saying Sometimes people change themselves, there's some other reason, you know, they change and people say, you know, they recognise through things that are available to us now and for these people that are suffering from the adverts that come out, except for child abuse, child neglect, stuff on the internet now is more readily at our hands. So do you feel by the use of the internet this is actually steering the way forward so they can research? When someone's looking at this and saying, why am I being treated this way? That it narratively directs us off with information that will come in front of you to say, you don't have to be treated, this is wrong. And as you said, somebody is treating you nice, no. 'This is wrong, I'm going to speak out, and I'm going to change, and I'm not going that road,' where other people may think, 'No, you're wrong,' because they— the brain and their self-understanding is— Yeah, I think what's important to understand is that our very first instinct as human beings, when we're first born as babies, our first instinct is to cling on to, to a parent. And what you do is— your very survival is dependent on that. Children, newborn babies particularly, are very, very vulnerable. They can't look after themselves at all, so they're entirely dependent on that parent to keep them safe. So that instinct trumps everything else. So if within the context of that, that feeling that you've got to cling on to somebody no matter how bad they are, you'll cling on. You will put up with a with all of the abuse that comes their way, because it's better to be looked after, albeit very badly, it's better to be with somebody than not with anybody at all, because if you're on your own as a child, you will die. So that— and there's a very, very clear instinct to understand that that's what you have to do. So therefore, what happens is other aspects of the behaviour are ignored. So it's not necessarily ignored, but it's kind of, "Better to stay with this person than to risk being on my own." So the people will, people will stick with people who abuse them for many, many years until they get an opportunity to see that a different type of relationship exists. So when they'll be able to see that actually somebody can look after them and can care for them without hurting them, and what they need is multiple repeats of that. So when a child goes into care, for example, what they have to see is that that care system that's looking after them can continue to keep them safe, to look after them, to meet their needs, to listen to them, to help them to understand themselves, understand their emotions, understand their own behaviour, and begin to see them as— they begin to view themselves as somebody who deserves better. And it's only when you're faced with almost this choice between, do I stay with the system and the person and the family that have been hurting me, because I feel safe there, although it's horrible, is better. People prefer to be with something that they understand or they're familiar with than to leave something that's terrible. I find this in therapy all the time. People will say, you know, "This— my life is terrible at the moment," 'But it might be worse if I change, so let me just stay where I am.' Whereas when you— when somebody's presented with— a child is presented with, 'You can stay in this family where it's really terrible for you and you feel safe, but now you're beginning to feel safe somewhere else, and actually you're safe in a way that actually it feels— it feels better, it feels less risky.' Because we know with children who've been abused, they're extremely sensitive to picking up where somebody might be a potential threat. So it's this constant dilemma that we have. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this properly or not to you, Kendall. Yes, no, no, no, completely. Yeah, I was just, as you were saying that, you know, I was going to bring in some case studies. Yeah, that was possible. Because like for myself, with it is, I, in when I was doing my own psychology, but not in the depths that you've done in your but obviously as a journalist I felt I needed to know some answers myself, like having this conversation with you on it, to understand when I'm trying to write a story about them, because your voice can hurt. They're still going to read that, someone will get joy from that. But I had a case, and I want you to, if it may, and it'd be nice to understand something in your level of psychology and what you've done. My case study was of a lady that had tried to kill herself many times, 4 or 5 times, through taking tablets. Her family was taking her back and forth. In the end, the parents were told under Section— she was to be sectioned for her own well-being to try and find out with a team of people what was going on. Because a child of the age of 15, 16 doesn't go and keep trying to commit suicide without any reason. So for you as the professionals who will be speaking to those parents, I don't know, it's attention, it's this, it's that, you know what you're saying, with behaviour. And when she went into the institution, obviously in this case Cedars Dam, that she was able to speak out and tell these strangers completely what was going on, okay? But she couldn't tell her family members. Was that because of fear, etc.? What I had to analyze and go through— she then admitted that from 9 years of age she was being abused by her brother, you know, softly abused to start with. And then when she became a teenager, and obviously her brother who was older than her then obviously got into the sexual abuse more, if you're with me on this case, who then didn't like what was happening to her, and then she kept trying to commit suicide. The family supported and worked with the institute that she was in. She then later went on to be moved when she came from that out of the facility, the family decided in the best interests of Case A that she was moved away with other families so she wasn't near the abuser, in what the family deemed, you know, that they were doing the best for their child. This child is 16 years of age and then meets, you know, people who's got who then was subject to going out to a party and was gang raped. Gang raped by 4 people, abused her, who then has come from there, that's been abused again, that again tried to commit suicide. And in the end, this person started committing criminal offenses. Okay, so what I was trying to do is my case, and as my tutor was giving me, was like, what do you believe why they were doing this? And my view was they just, they felt worthless. What, just, just what can you do? I don't want to be treated like this. I want to go. And in the end, kept reoffending because she could not get anybody to listen to what was happening to her, that she felt worthless, until she did face, you know, a longer sentence. And in that sentence actually came across somebody like you that goes into these people, that, um, I believe that she did turn her life around and is living a happy life. Because I, I don't know anymore from that case study that I was shown. Sometimes you can have a look, but because it's a case study, we have to be very careful not to persist and follow that person. Yeah, I understand. No, I wouldn't know on that, but for my thing is on a case study for people listening that this is a person that it leads to such other mental trauma. And at the same time, where we were talking earlier, how, as you were saying, that, you know, this continues to carry on, that these people— and people don't have the right to abuse anybody, you know. And for any listener that is out there you must speak out, mustn't they, Ann? The first— as hard as it is, or you think that reward or anything, speak out. And there's something you were saying on a BBC interview, I saw that, where you were going— where you stated it's harder to go to strangers than a family member to address their issues. Facing the problems is harder than going to Joe. What we know in terms of disclosure of abuse is that people are more likely to disclose to family members, and the second most likely group are mental health professionals. And it's not so much just whether somebody discloses or not, but it's about the response that they get. So I think if the response, as it sounded like in your case study, if the response was, let's remove the victim rather than remove the perpetrator,— then what happens is that person begins to believe, "Hold on a minute, it's me that's the problem, not the person that's hurt me." So, and then it sounds like what— as I said before, we know that people are more likely to go on and be abused again, and it's almost as if— well, it is exactly what happens is when somebody's in a situation where there's a potential threat, what happens is the brain goes into fight, flight, or freeze mode. It's a very, very clear biological process that goes on, and essentially essentially those parts of our brain, this upper brain that we have, the neocortex that makes such very good decisions, and that you all should make good decisions, it's about planning and executive decision-making and about predicting how things are going to go, that essentially goes into shutdown mode because the person feels threatened. So there's any— there's— if I can paint a scenario for you, a woman who has the experience of being abused in childhood is out on a night out with some friends meets a man and doesn't pick up on the fact that perhaps he's asking her to do things that he shouldn't do, that she shouldn't— that he shouldn't expect. Because what happens is her brain goes into fight, fight, fight, fight, or freeze mode. She's not thinking rationally. She's not thinking logically. She's just in this kind of basic functioning survival mode, which makes it harder for her to then break away. So this is where people who've been abused early in life often go on to be abused time and time again, because it, it not only feels familiar and it feels like something you know what's going to happen, but actually you feel powerless to stop it. So you just go into this complete survival mode, and often for women it's often the freeze mode where they can't actually action anything to stop that abuse happening. Which is where that pattern repeats. But if that first disclosure, when somebody first says, like your case study, I was abused by my brother, what the better response would be to say, that wasn't your fault, you were— he shouldn't have done that to you, that was very wrong what he did to you, we're going to take him and we're going to deal with him, we're going to deal with him as the problem, not you, 'You was the problem, and we're going to help you to cope with this in a different way, so that you can recognise actually this was— you were a victim of a crime.' And I think that's where that response is very, very important. Similarly, if somebody goes to the police, I know it's— the police have often got a very difficult job to be able to put a case together to lead to prosecution, but the response should be, 'This shouldn't have happened to you, we're going to do our very best to help you to get over something that wasn't your fault. But if there's an assumption that somebody is lying, that they're manipulating, that they're attention-seeking— I have a real problem with the expression attention-seeking, because let's be honest, we all like attention. It's that my late mother-in-law has a lovely— had a lovely expression, and I'll translate into English because it's in Scots: it's a rare dug that doesn't like a pat. No, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, it'd be unusual to find a dog that doesn't like being patted. So that's, it's that sense that we all love to be paid attention to. That's part of our, that early attachment I was talking to you about earlier on, that sense of actually wanting to be listened to, wanting to be, to be made to feel important. That is our most basic instinct. So everybody wants that. But if somebody has learned that the only way they're listen to is by slitting their wrists or overdosing or threatening suicide or offending or whatever it happens to be. If that's what they've learned, we have to help them to learn that actually they deserve to be paid attention to in a much more adaptive and functioning way than they have been in the past, and that's not their fault. It's very important that we help people to see that, that if they were abused in the first place, that wasn't their fault. World. How they then respond to that, how they change their belief about the world, that's about their responsibility, and that's how we build their resilience. Yeah, so with that person, as we were saying in the case study, because there will be listeners out there that would have had certain aspects or would have known of something or read something in a paper, so what makes somebody go from a suicidal path— to then, obviously, you've addressed during this interview that they attach themselves, people, that they're more likely to be abused if that's happening. It's like they're like a magnet to these abusers. They might, you know, that's what, you know, they feel they're expelling this off. And because that's the love unknown, like people keep reoffending, going in to jail with their family, their daughter, what then makes them become a criminal? What changes that? Is that because the mind is completely lost or shut down, or is it in flight-to-freeze mode, as you were saying? Well, I think people— I mean, it's very difficult to generalize because I think one of the things that, you know, we recognize is that you have to look at every case in its own merits, and you have to be able to dig down deep into what, um, what into each case. But if people, everybody, every, any behaviour meets a need, um, and for some young people, if they're within a household where they're being not, they're not being listened to, where they're being neglected, where there's domestic violence, for example, um, they may well find that, I mean, we know that children around about the age of 12 their peers become far more important than their parents do. I mean, you know, I'm sure you were the same with your children, Kendall. I remember my kids got to about 12, 13, 14, the last thing they wanted on this planet was to be seen with me. I mean, we'd walk 200 yards behind me, you know, if I'd made any attempts to sort of hug them or anything at the school gate, it was just the worst possible thing I could have done for them because we have a natural instinct to start relating more to our peers. So what, um, with people, they will then move into having a peer group that might be offending, that might actually be offering that kind of excitement. There's a very, very good writer here in Scotland called Darren McGarvey who talks about the fact that he was abused as a child, um, and he went on to have addiction problems, has really turned his life around, and is a great advocate advocate for understanding early trauma, but he talks about the fact that if you're in a household where there's abuse and trauma going on, then you, you, you get fired up, you're full of adrenaline, you're full of that fight instinct, and you go out looking for somewhere to expend that energy. And you may well find that you have an affinity with people, that you— they understand you, they get you in a way that perhaps nobody else has done. So you begin to belong to that group. We all need a tribe. We all need to belong to a tribe. So you belong to that tribe. And part of that tribe might be about offending. So some people get involved in that. Other people start using drugs to make themselves feel better because of this terrible psychological anguish that they're experiencing. So they start using drugs. And then what happens is they begin to then need to source money for the drugs. So there's an inevitable path. No two paths are the same. No two paths are the same. But I think what we need to understand all the time— this is what the ACE world has done and said— not what's wrong with you, but let's think about what's happened to you. And I would add to that question, not just what's happened to you, but what do you make of it? What's your understanding about what's happened to you? Because we need to— we can't change what's happened to you. What we can do is change your understanding and your view of what's happened to you. Because if you can see yourself as somebody who was in the wrong time at the wrong place, it wasn't your fault, these are things that happened and shouldn't have happened— if you can see things like that in that way, rather than thinking you're a bad person, this is always going to happen to you, don't deserve any better— if you can have a more positive view and change your core beliefs then you're more likely to go on to have a more resilient future and a stronger future. Yes, because do you also find— obviously when I was studying and looking at that part, you know, we're taking forensic science profiling, forensic psychology, criminal criminology, advanced criminology, obviously it borders on the same with criminal procedures. You know, like I said, two things are not the same because you've got to have the reason why you committed the act, don't you, as well as, you know, the two mens rea, etc., going through that without being too technical for the listeners. I don't want to do that in the last 10 minutes, weigh them down on that. Is when, you know, we really opened up here for people to understand what's going on. With this is that, do you find these people— when I was looking through, when we're looking at where they've been brought up in the care facility or people at home, you know, people haven't done their education, low education— that if they do turn around, they can change? And this is why people— we see people studying more in colleges latter parts of their life because they've learned to deal with issues that they've had, to go forward, to come forward, and, um, and then realize there is a better world for them. So they don't become lifers, um, in installments and this repeat circle going on. Like we're saying, getting to the core of it, getting people to believe in themselves that it wasn't their fault, that you can't change us, but we must look at where we can go and make this better, a better place. Like you say, it wasn't that person, not the perpetrator. What happened to that perpetrator was in that case study, which I don't know, I haven't been able to follow up. As you know, we're only given this in from our tutors and in-depth things and writing theses on them. But what happened to him? You know, because he then felt rewarded He could continue and go on. Did he become a rapist? What would his mindset have said on his journey if they're not told, if you do something wrong, you do something wrong and it has to be corrected, like as a child in a normal cycle, as you say, you know, with the peers that they go to. But my own son, goodness me, yeah, like you, you know, the thing is so unfair, you know, that Kevin, is it Kevin and There was that show, oh yeah, Kenny something. I didn't watch it myself because I was on the same platform as him. But yeah, no, Mum, can you not walk me to the gate? Can you not come that close if you're picking up in the car? You know, like we'd kiss them, they'd be wiping off their faces, going, right, do you have to do that? You know, our intention of love but because they've had that love, there'll be other people at that gate that didn't have that either, be like giving them a quick bash or, you know, we're getting that for, you know, it comes on with it. But as we were saying, you know, I do hope I'll be able to bring you on the show again for another part of this. And because there's so much talk about, and it's wonderful interview, an hour isn't long enough to deal with that. There's so much we haven't covered. And what we've been talking about in there. Because, like, do you think mental health plays a part in a personal— person's pursuit of criminal activity? What— at what age would you be more likely to commit a crime? As a child, you know, when does this come in? Uh, you know, you've worked where you've worked in, and we haven't even gone on to that— the Good Shepherd Secure Unit providing mental health assessments on children admitted to a secure care unit, you know, to explain that in more detail. We can only just do a quick abbreviation to set this down, and hopefully along with yourself and this radio station and Women's Radio Station, by bringing yourselves on and colleagues that want to come on here, for the listeners to understand on this, you know, huge platform that people have a voice. You need to have that voice, and with mental health or any issues of abuse, by coming on this show and giving your time, that there may be somebody listening out there that can go, she's here. I think what I would say, if somebody hasn't come forward to talk about their abuse, what I would say is that they deserve to give themselves that chance. And it's hard, it's really, really hard, because if you've been told as a child that you're worthless, that nobody cares about you, that nobody's interested, that 'If you tell people, they won't believe you or they will punish you,' then actually it's the brave— I have met in the course of my work, I have met some of the bravest people you possibly hope to come across because they have had the courage to say, 'I was abused as a child,' and that is a huge, huge step to take. So if people can start saying that, and the rest of us can then not start jumping to conclusions and jumping to jumping to suggestions, but just the first response should be, "Thank you for having the courage to share that with me," because that is— we very rarely have an understanding of the huge process and huge journey that people go on before they start disclosing abuse, because they're not expecting there to be a compassionate response which thinks, "Okay, 'Let's help you think about how you want to change this. What do you want to do? What do we have to do to help you to see that actually you deserve a better future?' Because this is all— we should always be focusing. I think sometimes within mental health there's too much of a focus on thinking about getting a diagnosis, but what we should be doing is thinking, how can we build that resilience, not only within the people that we see but within ourselves as as professionals dealing with this group. Yes, the same as. I mean, we are literally 3 minutes left of this show, so it would be my honor if you— we could have you back to conclude a second part to this interview. Would that be possible? I'd be delighted to, Kendall. Because when people think, you know, when you go on and you're given such a short period of time to speak in an interview, the whole point of this show and my segment— as my listeners know, I work very much on dementia— is I have to give my listeners the full picture and help where to go and the full story, as long as how many shows, weeks that takes. On the subject of abuse and what we're going to be covering, we're going to be covering this over a 6, 7, 8 week period, which is in-depth. And obviously there are colleagues that you may know that will come on because I want to use this whole platform that we've got running. And in February, at least 2 segments a month to keep it in people's mind. This year is my purpose, was my New Year's resolution, is that we must make people realize you— it's not your fault if you come forward. We need to educate people. We need people to understand. When I know people even in my profession that when somebody comes out 30 years later and says, "I was abused," and then goes to the policeman. Well, why didn't they tell somebody before that? It drives me insane. It absolutely drives me nuts because you're not in that person's mind. Like you said, the courage for somebody to actually say, "I was abused. This is why I did this. I'm telling my story now." But people go, "You're a liar. She's a liar. He's a liar. He's this, he's that." there's so much to that. So I think you're right, I think the whole issue about how we deal with people, I think there's an assumption that, and we've seen this recently in the media, is there's an assumption that people are making things up and they're making things up for financial gain or for some sort of sense of publicity. And my experience is that people don't, it's a huge sense of shame around being abused, so people don't make it up. It's very, very rare for people to do that. As you said, you don't like the word attention. Somebody's come out and then says, why didn't you do this? If you go back, I mean, like, if Case A that I studied is listening to this show and to Anne, and I do believe that you may have turned your life around or something like, which is how I I want to give my deepest gratitude and thanks because it made me understand this a little bit more by looking at your story, enabled me to talk with Anne this morning on that and what you went through, that again, no child was wrong. And then, you know, by asking Anne, who's in the highest level for me in psychology and for tutoring and teaching, that it was not your fault. Stand tall, keep that umbrella up and that support that is around you, because you were the victim. The perpetrator should have been the one that went on there. So I hope for her, in case that enabled me to gain my work and worked on her throughout, I thank you. But for myself, to you, Anne, um, we will record, uh, another session, so, um, which will run concurrently, if that's fine with you. I think we have time over the weekend to record to continue this conversation on, so that we'll have part 1, part 2, and then I'm probably more people, because this isn't just a 1-hour show that runs concurrently for a whole week. We will be covering child abuse, the psychologist on my show Free Your Mind. Let's talk about at least once out of every month of this year to enable everybody to be able to express, free their mind, and let's talk about it. So on this, I'm very sorry, but our show has come to an end on part 1 with Anne, um, on abuse, etc., on this very sensitive subject. And thank you and goodbye from me.