Get Booked – Nicola Vivian & Her Book My Will

Welcome to today's episode of Get Booked. I'm Hazel Butterfield and we are here in our studio in Covent Garden where we are discussing books, writers and anything to do with the love of reading and writing or all based around supporting women's emotional well being and mental health. Now today in the studio I do have Nicola Vivian, the author of my will. Hello. Hello. How are you? Very well. Thank you very much for having me here. I'm really quiet. I'm so used to being quiet. I'm with you. You're with me. You're with me. Brilliant, brilliant. So. So have you done many interviews on my will? No. Is this your first? I did a talk the other day. Oh, really? Yeah. Which I hope to do many more of. And where was that? It's the Chelsea Town Hall. Wow. Yeah. Okay. There's quite a few talks that go on there. Was there quite a few different authors? No, no, no, no. That night just was me. It was about the lessons I've learned from addiction, love, you know, all those big questions that. Yeah. Wow. And you were up there on your own. That would scare me. It was fine. It was fine. I thought I was going to be very nervous. It was fine. Actually, once you get going, it's the anticipation of everything that's much worse than the actual doing, isn't it? It's like before an exam, you're always so frightened that actually doing the exam is less terrifying. Well, actually, yeah. And also it depends what you're talking about because it's your own books, you know, your own book, you know what you're talking about. That's true. And you wanted to talk to people enough about it to write the book anyway. Yes, yes, yes. Yep. It's your subject. It's one subject. Exactly. So, yes. So it's not necessarily a test because you put the question. No, that's how we should. You're absolutely right. We shouldn't see it ever as a test. We always do, of course. Like we're being judged, but we're not. We're always judged. Yes. Can you tell me, tell us all a little bit more about what my will about. It's essentially a memoir, but I've used myself as a sort of the subject of study, of addiction, of codependence. I grew up being very codependent, which was a word I rejected wholeheartedly until I didn't. And I was involved very much with addicts. My father was an alcoholic. My boyfriend, the sort of love of my life, he died of a heroin overdose. This was 31 or two years ago now. And, you know, there's so much written about addiction and mental health that I wanted to unravel myself to see. Where did it come from? How does this develop? Well, that's the thing, isn't it? Because things that happen to us, they're not always, you know, how we react to a particular scenario. It is not because of what necessarily happened then. It's to do what happened six months earlier and 12 months earlier and other things that have kind of. Yeah, it's shaped us. Yes. And I think that we have a huge part in that. I think that we have a huge part in. In how we see ourselves in relation to that trauma. You know, if we see ourselves as being at blame, at fault for that, or, you know, we failed, then we're going to carry that forever. And that's really my main. My main understanding from life, which I hope I've put in my book, that we have the power to change our lives, in fact. But too often we think that, oh, God, this is, you know, poor me, this is my lot in life. Well, it depends on how you handle your lot in life, do you not think? Absolutely. But I think that that comes from how we see ourselves. So if we can understand that it's not, you know, it's really, really, really hard when you're a little person and you've got a very dysfunctional family or something horrible happens. Most of the time, children take that on board as their fault. A child, you see, always needs to see their parents as being perfect because otherwise their life is. Their world is unsteady, it's weak, it's not safe. And a child needs to feel safe. So he needs his parents, or he or she needs his parents to be perfect. If they're not, if they're showing weakness, that's really frightening for them. So they turn the blame inside themselves. Paradoxically, though, I never make out that I'm perfect to my children. I might joke and say, mummy's perfect at everything. But sometimes when I fail at things or when I lose it and I shout, and we shouldn't be shouting at our children, but do you know what? We're just human. And I like to point out to them, I said, do you know what? I was just tired, but by the time I'd asked you eight times to do something, I was tired and I just lost it. In the same way that when you ask your brother you to leave your room, leave your room, leave your room, and he doesn't, and eventually you just lose it. It's the same and it's not. But you know what? I apologize and I shouldn't have done it, but I was tired and it was. And it's just, it's unacceptable. Which is why it's important we all get to go and have decent nap. And that's why I like you to go to bed at this time so that we're all at our best and that, you know. And so I think sometimes fallibility is good for them to see, but to understand it, to not expect, I think that's one of paramount. I think you're right. I think you're expressing, I mean, if you're expressing your imperfections, you're there, that's fine. I mean we're only human, as you said, so we can't be sort of gods. But obviously in the past people expressed that less so previous generations might be. Might have more on their shoulders than present ones. I don't know. Well, look what's happening now because people are now starting to understand it. One of the key elements in your book which I thought was fantastic is just. Is just educating our young to what is going on in their head. If they can understand it, if they can unpack it, they know how to deal with it. And instead of sometimes knowledge is. Well, it's not sometimes, all the time. All the time. Knowledge is power. But if they know why they're feeling sad. Exactly. If they know why their head's a bit jumbled, if they're given the tools to do it, then people will still have the issues unavoidable. But you can handle them. I mean, if you know that you're about to have an episode and you know that you need to go to your safe place or to read or to take yourself out of a scenario, that's half the problem solved. And so I think it's really important that that main element that you brought in towards the end of the book. Now what I do want to do shortly is, is I want to be talking about your tips. Not necessarily just children, but you know, about things that you learnt in your book. I want to talk about your favourite authors. We do like to make sure that towards the end of the year everybody's had their three different tips on mental health and mental well being put them together for a Christmas show. So it could be quite interesting. And I read quite a lot of memoirs and this is quite unique. Your one. Sorry, it was just. It was so self reflective which. And I know that's what a memoir was, but you were very open and you can tell when you felt a little bit uncomfortable about imparting some information, but you did it because it was important for the story you had to tell. Do you want to tell the listeners a little bit more about the family dynamics? I mean. Well, I think that. So children of alcoholics or children in dysfunctional families or children with abusers as parents or carers, often there's so much shame around that. And with that shame, you know, nobody likes pain. So with pain we tend to cover it up. We live in denial. We pretend that everything's fine. We act as normal when, you know, our parents are lying on the floor drunk or, you know, we normalize everything. Right. So what we try to. But it sticks there. It sticks because it's actually brainwashing. So then, then we are so confused. Emotions aren't intelligent, are they? Emotions are just emotions. They're not. We don't use our intellect unless we know how we're feeling. Like you've just said. You just said that, you know, when we understand how we feel, the. Then the confusion is. Is less. Yeah. And the confusion is the thing that really, I think, messes us all up. And that's why I made a point of being so honest. I felt I had to uncover it all in order to. Yeah. Completely normalize it. You know, it's about. Well, also it's to do with the fact that people have to take responsibility for their manipulative actions. I mean, it's all very well trying to cover up when you've made a mistake, but own up to it. Because people learn then about the fallibility elements. They learn about learning to apologize for things that you've done. But if you've done something wrong and you make out it was somebody else's fault or you get people blame shifting. Yeah. And that projection. But also I think what I found extremely helpful, which I hope other people find helpful as well, is, is how people can look at what you went through and say and go, wow, that's happened to me as well. Maybe that's why this has happened to me. I think that since my book came out, I've received so many extraordinary responses on social media saying that, you know, your experiences were my experiences, just with different names, different faces. And I feel like this is like such a common problem. And. But it's not. It is being talked about more, but it hasn't been in the past. And in fact, yes, maybe some people don't have such drama as maybe I did, but billions of people do. And I think that some more, some less Some more, some less. And I think the ticking of the boxes is just. All I know is it's clearly a very common theme because what readers have said to me so far is. And also I've unraveled the sort of human condition by being open and that also the sort of fear of failure, the fear of not being enough, the fear of being hopeless or to blame or guilty or whatever those unfortunately we seem to be as human beings very. We're very sort of keen to latch onto the negative about us, aren't we? Positive. So those are the other boxes that people have ticked when they've read my book. So it's something that I wrote recently is about when I why I started get booked and it was about shifting my focus. And sometimes we focus on trying to make sure that we can do something for somebody else rather than ourselves first. And it's. People are just constantly trying to put things in, you know, everything's going off in so many different directions. No wonder we're all a little bit. But you're right, aren't you? We need to be contained first in order to be able. It's like the, the. I can never remember, is it the life jacket you have to put on first in an airplane or the. Before you help somebody else? Otherwise it's not going to help. Otherwise you're not going to be helpful. Exactly. I want to talk about books in general as well. In the second section, just about how books like this are there to help people and how the sharing element is so incredibly important just to let people realize that they're not on their own or they've not. They might have had a unique experience but also it helps them unpack a little bit about what's happened to them and help them see some sort of warmth in, you know, connection. Connection, yeah. Great word. Thank you. We'll be back in a couple of minutes. Welcome to Women's radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's Radio station. Hello and welcome to future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. 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We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org you're listening to women's radio stations supporting women's wellbeing. Women's Radio Station is creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter womensradiostation, that's Womens Radio STN or Facebook Women's Radio station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to the second section of today's get booked here at our lovely studio in Covent Garden supporting women's emotional well being and just shooting the breeze and chatting away to people. Today in the studio I have Nicola, Vivian. And we're talking about my will. Yeah, that's right. So we were talking a little bit about the power of addiction and how it manifests itself and certain issues that you had to go through and the self reflection that you went through while writing my will. Now, one of the beautiful things about books is why I do this show is it's so incredibly important for people to live somebody else's life, to understand what's going on, for people to be honest and for people to go, oh, I'm, I'm not crazy. There are other people that are having to go through the same sort of things and, and also sometimes you've reached a better understanding and you need, you don't need to, you, you can, and it's very good of you to share that understanding with other people. And this is why writing is, and, and reading is brilliant for people and also just to live somebody else's life as well. Well, I mean we're as human beings, we're completely wired to connect. We're not wired to be alone, are we? We're not wired. We're so alone nowadays with social media and things, but we're wired to connect. And connection really doesn't mean from a distance through Facebook. Connection means being understood. Having somebody in front of you who has empathy for what you're saying and, and is on your level, that's, that's what connection is. So when you find books that speak your language or tell you the same experiences that you've had, you feel comfort, you feel solace, you feel connected. And that's, I mean, that's a hugely crucial aspect to mental, well, being, feeling connected. And did you know actually that we now have a loneliness? I know, I know. And I speak to a lot of people. As said before, I read a lot of books and get booked. It's all about speaking to reading enthusiasts, writers, which include bloggers as well and obviously. And the core theme of a lot of mental health and mental well being issues out there are loneliness and isolation. Feeling like people don't understand. And you don't just read a book like yours that covers so many areas of addiction because you've had addiction issues. You do it to understand your neighbour, your best friend, your child, your mother, somebody on the tv or when somebody's, you know, when people go on about, oh, why is that person behaving like that on tv? It's not always for attention. It's because people are going through their own experiences. But you're talking about compassion, Hazel, and that's really, really important. A lot of people don't understand that word, sadly nowadays, but, I mean, that's what you're talking about. So instead of judging harshly, it's, it's, it's kinder, isn't it? And healthier. To see that person as being, you know, what's their problem? How are they. Are they suffering? What are they suffering from? And I think that's. Gosh, that we could change the world if we had a bit more of that. Yeah. This is why I like people to share their stories and they're so. It's a toughie because there's a lot of people out there that are always going to oppose brilliant things. Always going to oppose people over sharing. Or maybe people don't want it to be right into arena because it makes them look at themselves a little bit more. Some of us want to. Some of us are open to it, some. But you have that choice. You don't have to. You have that choice, you know, with a book. No one has to buy my book, but they should, obviously. But if they do, then, yes, it is. Pain is always uncomfortable. Yeah. And that's. We do tend to run, run, run, run for the hills from pain. That's just natural, I think. Well, exercise, at least. That's good for mental. Well being, that type of running. Yes. So what kind of response are you getting to my will at the moment? Well, as I say, it's been incredibly moving. How many people have written to say that? It's that I've talked in my story, I've shared their story and it's made them understand, it's confusion that has hindered them all their lives. And they've. They've sort of said, you've named my issues, you've named my life, you've named why I'm doing stuff wrong and good. Yeah. That's all one ever hopes for, isn't it? One person said it changed her life, so that's really nice. Do you know what, though? Was that one of those days where you were just kind of flirting and saying, yeah, I'm happy with that. Absolutely. That was wonderful. She's very dear to me, this person. I don't know her, but she's very dear to me. Isn't it incredible how much just a couple of lines disappreciating somebody can mean so much? Yes. Well, look how much poetry does as well. People write about poetry being a mood changer. Yeah. You know, words can. I mean, language is powerful. It is. We should use it beneficially. Yeah. Wisely. We were talking about social media a little bit off air and how we like Instagram because it's visual and people are kind of nicer and more collaborative. Yes, absolutely. On Instagram and Twitter's brilliant for sharing links and you can visually, you can see the words a little bit more. It's, it's, it's not the image isn't the, the primary focus, but it is the place that people choose to be. To vent. To vent. To vent, Yes. I mean, take Greta. Yes. Some of the stuff that's, it's appalling and you just think. And then so many people are piping up either in defence or against and people are just. It's venting where I think people are very deprived of a voice, aren't they, at the moment? So this social media is, it's sort of safe to use because you're, you're not facing anyone. Yep. If you wouldn't say what you're saying on social media to somebody's face or even to anybody else, then don't say it because the likelihood is something that you would. Some of these nasty comments, you wouldn't even say, admit to your friend around the dinner table that you've said it online. It's, you know. I know. No, I think that's why it's so dangerous in a way. Just the distance that it gives you. Yeah. Social media. I agree, I agree. Do you have three tips that you would give to people about well being or how to live or. Three tips? I think I need three tips. 300 tips. Three tips. Let's start with three and go from there. Let's start right from the very top. Connection, Connection, connection. That is. So we're in this, as you say, the middle of a loneliness epidemic. We need to connect. So when we feel like hell, a lot of people, I definitely do want to just stay at home and, and the thing will get bigger and bigger and bigger in my head. But if I tell myself connect, connect, express, express, then, then I definitely feel better. You know, it's a little bit like a child, isn't it? At the end of a school day, Mummy arrives and they pour their feelings out and they cry and cry and cry and then they rush off feeling much, much better because they've given mum all their feelings. Yes, they've. So expression is the most key. Expression is the opposite of depression. So there we are. We need to express just before you go on to the next one, just to point out, I mean, we have a dog walking group after school and, and a few of Us are freelance in the area, so we sometimes have to change our hours and we can't do this, that and whatever. And one of my friends, her hours changed for so long that she couldn't come on the dog walk, which basically is five mums, five dogs, just chatting solidly while power walking for a good 5k. And it got to a stage where she had to change her hours and say, can I just do 10:30 till 6:30 instead of 9:30 till 5:30? Because my mental health is struggling because I'm not having that vent after the weekend with the husband, with the kids, after seeing mum and dad, after doing this, that whatever. And she goes, I can miss a few, but if I don't get that time, I'm struggling, I'm really struggling. So just to point out communication, so, so important. And listen, if there's. If you're really too shy or find it too difficult to express, there is always a piece of paper and a pen. Just write it down. And that distances you, funnily enough, because when I was saying to you before about when I was writing about, you know, why I did the show again and why I review books and I'm writing my own book at the moment, the cathartic element of writing down and sometimes even if it's not to go in a book or if it's not to go in a blog, doesn't need to. No. When you write down what's going on. So all of you people out there, if you're thinking, oh, I could never write a book or I'm not very good at writing, doesn't matter. It really doesn't write it down because all those thoughts jumbled up in your head that are causing you problems because you can't do. You know, when you think about something and all of a sudden you forgot what you were thinking about and it's just because there's too much going on, write it down. It will be ordered. And I have this. I always think of it as organizing your kitchen cupboard. You know, if this cupboard is just full of. Yes. Then you need to organize it. Yes. Do you know what? That's when some of my friends know that I'm really struggling is when I clean out my cleaning cupboard and they're like, wow, you're having a tough one. I was like, yeah, cooking wasn't going to cut it this time. I really needed to sort my cupboard out. And like my. I had an ex partner where I used to go and take all of this stuff out of his cupboard and he's topped that top shelf in the fridge where it's full of relishes. You take it out and you do it again. You get rid of all the out of date stuff and you make sure. But it's exactly the same as the head. If it's out of date, get rid of it. Exactly. Don't hold on to old stuff. That's the thing. Actually, you're really right because it's. Don't hold on to the past. And we do tend to do that. We do, we really do. And you know what? You look at these, I've had some items that have been sitting somewhere for a while. I've been determined to get rid of them and I just finally put them in a charity bag and went, I'm not going to use them. They don't bring me joy. And do you know how good you feel when you finally liberating plunge? Yeah, I'm sort of a bit obsessive about it. I go practically every week. Yeah. Wow. If everything outside of you is orderly in that respect, you know, no old stuff, then inside is going to be. You've got a better chance of being better inside. But you know that that's the thing that keeps you on a playing field, you know, it keeps your brains, it helps. Yeah. There are things that we know, yes, we do need. We need little tricks or something and it's knowing what your tools and tricks are and people don't have the same ones. No, no, no, no. Really, they don't. No, you're right. I had a wonderful spiritual teacher years and years and years ago and she used to tell me about how cold water did it for her. So every time she felt in the most awful muddle or angry or anxious, she would just thrust her hands into this cold, cold water up to her elbow and somehow. And then she said, you know, it went down the drain. It all went down the drain and I lost it. And I thought that was great. Going down the drain, that's brilliant. Because that's how she sees it. However, cryotherapy, it's been used so much, especially in some of the most upmarket spas and clinics out there because it chemically does something to you, but, you know, whatever you think it means to you is perfect anyway. Exactly. Wow. Right, we're going to go over to a very quick break. We're halfway through already and we will be back very shortly. Welcome to the women's radio station supporting women's well being. Women's radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education, and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website, womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. 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For more information on how you can sponsor a show, go to womensradiostation.com Women's radio stations supporting women's wellbeing. Welcome back to the second half of Today's Get Booked. I'm Hazel Butterfield. I've been chatting away to Nicola Vivian about her book My Will, which focuses on addiction and the many different areas that it can affect our life. And just a memoir on how life's occurrences can affect who we are, what we do and how our future pans out, who we become as parents, friends, colleagues, everything. And we were just talking about three tips that you would give to anybody on mental health and mental wellness and basically me being me, I kind of butted in and I was basically telling you, I mean I thought it was absolutely fantastic but I kind of followed it up with a few stories that were very similar. So we digressed and we went off in a bit of a segue. Please do carry on with tip number two and I'll try not to butt in. Tip number two is it's harder in a way to achieve but it is important I guess to be vigilant about what you're saying to yourself. So if you're saying over and over and over again that, well, there's no point going to that interview because I'm just not clever enough, I'm never going to get it if no point going on that date because I'm not pretty enough, no point, you know, if you've got this terrible kind of self contempt or this I'm not good enough thing going on that is going to reflect on every aspect of your life. So it's really important when you're in that depth of sort of confusion or anxiety or pain or depression or whatever it is that you want to call it, to know what you're, how you're seeing yourself. So, you know, even if you don't feel like it's truthful, if you just sort of say I'm good enough, I really am, I'm good enough, a little bit of that might sink in a bit. It's a bit like lying to yourself. You believe it after a while. You know, it's a. Louise Hay, Remember the Great. She was one of the first self help book people in the 80s and she's. She sadly now died. But she being American, not being rude, but being American, she always said that we, we should look in the mirror every morning when we get out of bed and say I love you, I love you, I love you, you're beautiful. I did try that. I felt incredibly foolish but I understood what she was saying that, you know, a good perspective of yourself is going to go a long way. But this is why people use affirmations. There's Me, Sorry, I've been sitting there for about two minutes like an excitable kid at Christmas going, oh my God. I want to put in a notion. A notion. It's about affirmations. It is, it's entirely. Yeah. The things that we say to each other. I mean, would we say that to our friends? No, you're right. The most important voice we hear is our own. And you know, what we say to our children. And it's just. There was a brilliant excerpt From a Channel 4 program the other day where basically there was. I think it's. Is it My Big Fat Diary or something? I don't know. Yes. And this guy's saying to her, what do you think about yourself? And she was saying all these horrible things about herself. And then you turn around and says, go and have. Right there in that chair is your nine year old self. Tell her the same thing. And she went, no, that's cruel. Really? That's good. I like that. Yeah. It was so powerful. Yes, I like that. And it was brilliantly done. But, well, and the awful thing is that we don't, we're not aware of all of this. We just, we've just got stuck into this sort of self belief and we're not aware of it. So I think being vigilant is the first thing. Okay. Brilliant. They're making me. So this is so good. Sorry, I'm just. I do get excitable about things. That's okay. You're going to get excitable about a brisk walk. I think brisk walks in nature are incredibly. You go on walks, so, you know, I think that's incredibly good for all the time with my dog. Yeah. Sometimes like, I mean, I love going with my friends saying. But sometimes I like going on my own so I can just have a little bit of headspace and chat to my dog, who very rarely talks back. Yes. And it's brilliant. And also actually when you're moving, if you're moving relatively fast, the energy, you know, gets flowing in the right way around your body and obviously body and mind are connected, unlike what a lot of people think. And that really helps. But also just to be, to realize that you're a small cog in this big wheel because when your head is so hugely overwhelmed by big things that you, well, you think are terribly, terribly big in the overall picture of things, they're not. You're just a small cog in this big wheel. When you look at the clouds and you look at nature growing, it's been there for hundreds and hundreds of Years. That's good for perspectives and that's what's good about reading because it gets you focusing on something else. So when you are being overwhelmed, and also, this probably sounds horrible, but if you're going through something and you're overwhelmed and then you read about somebody else going through this same situation, you kind of go, oh, it's not just me. Maybe their life is even worse. Oh, actually, do you know what? They've still managed to come through, if they can come through. And also, it's just the retraining of the brain to focus somewhere else for a little bit and really useful. I quite agree. Yeah, actually, you're right. I mean, if you go out and help somebody else, I don't know, even if it's crossing the road, an elderly person crossing the road, you definitely feel a little bit better. Altruism is perfect. Yeah. So that's a good point as well. Yeah. There's so many things. I feel like I've got a right. I'm gonna let you do your third point before I go on. Brisk walk. Connection. Yeah, brilliant. Self appreciation. Brisk walk. Just helping other people. Daily goals. Little goals. Cleaning up the kitchen cupboard helps. All those sorts of things. Yeah. I mean, they're little tools, but. Well, also it was quite interesting because, I mean, you've got. You've got children. One. Yes. Yeah. One. Well, probably, you know, it depends. Sometimes they can feel like so anymore. They can. They really can. And the. One of the. We went through a little bit of. I tried to show my son altruism and basically he had this. This coat that he wore constantly. Partially. He wore it constantly just to wind me up because he is 12, but he wore it so much that it had a rip in the armpit and he spilled ink on it because he basically wears it when he's doing his homework. And he got to a stage that I just thoroughly hated it. And we walked into a shop the other day and we found a new coat. And I was like, brilliant. My son is not going to look like he's homeless. Great. But I kind of said to him, and I'm a northern mother, so I can be quite strict and direct about things. I said, right, you've got till the time we get out of this shop for you to empty your pockets and put it into your new coat, because that coat is not coming home with us, otherwise you'll be sleeping with it in your bed. And da, da, da, da. And he goes, I don't want you to let it go. I went, babe, you've Got to let it go. It's just got it, it's got to go. Anyway, it was raining outside and straight outside the shop there was a homeless person. I went, excuse me, would you like to sit on this, that the floor's not wet and you know you're not gonna be cold and things like that. And he went, yeah, that'd be great. Anyway, walk off. My son's like, you actually gave my coat to a homeless person. And then the next day we'd just been for Sunday lunch and you see, and it's raining and he sees this guy cuddled up with his coat and he's like, fair play, mum. Yeah, you did the right thing. Well done. Well done you. Yeah, that's really good. And then he was sitting there going, okay, I really like that. And I felt happy that this guy was, you know, a little bit warmer, a little bit drier. But it's something very simple. Yes, of course. I think that's great that he saw that, that he. I mean, he's young still and he acknowledged that. I think that's great. Really great. Yeah. And again, one of the main things that you talk about in your book is educating the young. Absolutely. And how do you think that has to happen? Oh, gosh. Well, as a mother, I'm not an educator, but as a mother I feel like, well, if we think that poor mental health is the root cause of perfectionism, addiction, depression, anxiety, self harm, all those things, then emotional intelligence or emotional education should start really, really young in a child's life. I mean, way before geography and maths and those sorts of subjects. It would be. Wouldn't it be wonderful if a child could define and identify how they felt as easily as they can talk about their favourite ice creams? Yeah, that's what I. Sort of. Without the normalisation of it, without any sort of poor me attitude or anything, just the normalization of discussing and expressing how they feel, why they feel like that, the sort of negative self beliefs that are charging around their heads or whatever it is, it's expressing it in a normal way. What's astonishing to me is we go to doctors, we have physical checkups, we look at our bank accounts, we're always checking up to see how much money we've got. We've never done checkups of our emotional account, as it were. Do we are now more so we are, but we don't have sort of monthly checkups or anything. We don't think, now, where am I now emotionally? What am I doing wrong? What am I. Do you not Think we're going to go down the more Americanized route where people have a therapist, not because something's gone wrong, they have a therapist to keep them on their right path. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're probably right. Yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I think certain people have different things that they use as therapy, but if I could afford it, well, that's a good time. Yeah. Whereas they see that as like making sure you get your five a day. And I agree. Yeah. But if a child is. If they're taught at school, then a. It stops a lot of those mental health issues developing or it lessens the effects of those mental health issues and then we don't. I mean, in my generation of people sort of grew up and, you know, when they got to their 30s or 40s, they decided they were in a hell of a mess. So what are we going to do? We're going to spend millions of pounds on psychotherapy and years and years and years and unlearning everything that we've already learned, which is so slow. But if you get a little person aged 3, 4, 5 or whatever it is before, you know, just. Just as part of their own language, to incorporate emotions into it as a normal speech, as it were, then, then they're going to be. They're going to be much better off in their. In their emotions, in their minds, in there. I completely agree. And I saw an article the other day, knowing that you were coming in, and I thought, oh, this is so brilliant. I've got to mention it, that children that were given detention to be naughty, bullying, misbehaving, and let's keep in mind that most of the time, these children doing these things, there's something else wrong. They are left in a room altogether to lie down on yoga mats and meditate. Oh, wonderful. Yes, wonderful. How good is that? That's great. I have seen that. I don't know. Where is it? Was that here? Yes, it was. That's wonderful. Yes, because there's this pshe that's going to be made physical, social, economic. So it's physical health, social, economic, education. And that is going to be made mandatory from 2020. Apparently. My son does that. Does he? Yeah. So basically they have wellness weeks where they're expected to try certain different vegetables in the canteen. They have weeks where they're not given any homework because most homework now is set via their phones and their iPad devices and things like that. It's all logged so that everybody can see what's happening. So they want them to be off tech Completely. They have weeks where they do assemblies where they. Well, on these wellness weeks they discuss more what's going on and the more in of kind encouraged to try. They have to try one different class and try something come out of their comfort zone. That's wonderful. And you see the benefits in your little boy. Yeah, it's actually, it's the eldest one. Yeah. But my youngest one at their school, they started doing yoga. Yeah, that's wonderful. Even for 10, 15 minutes. And it's kind of sweet. But when I do yoga at home and I do yoga as much as I can do, as much as I have the time to, you know, he'll suddenly sit there and go, oh yeah, namaste, stay. And you know, he'll get on with it and he's happy to do certain different moves. So you're not normalising it. That's, that's, that's the main thing is normalizing these sorts of things rather than thinking that they're, you know, for weirdos or for whatever people used to think. Oh, but do you remember where when the self help section in a bookshop, you'd be like, oh no, I don't want to be seen going in there. People think I've got problems. Yeah, no, it was mortifying. Now it's the biggest section I know. Actually. I went to Waterstones the other day and they said that there was a really wonderful girl there and she said that she was trying to. Instead of having. Not instead of, but as well as having self help sections, she wanted to do a helping others section, slightly different. And she said that my book would come under the helping others section. I think it would as well. We're just going to go over to our last ad break and we'll be back in a couple of minutes. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of three and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. 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Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover and mental health advocate and you can listen to my show Get Booked here at Women's Radio station daily at 5am and 5pm throughout my shows we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, children chat to authors, publishers and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch@presentersomensradiostation.com join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@media mattersforwomen.org you're listening to Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter. Women's Radio Station that's Women's Radio STN or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to our final section of Get Booked Here today I'm joined by Nicola Vivian. We have been shooting the breeze, chatting away. I'm trying my best not to butt in when you come out with an excellent point, but I just get so excited and I know that I'll forget if I don't say it straight away. So ridiculous. I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying our chat. Me too. Enjoying talking about what means a lot to you as well. And I think it's so important that we encourage and invest in our children's mental health because this is what people haven't in the past and that's why it's seen as an epidemic at the moment. Why does everybody seem to have mental health issues? No, we always did. It's just we're now realizing, you know. Absolutely, yeah, we're opening it up. We're opening up the closet or the whatever it is. Pandora's box. Pandora's box, yes. Yeah, we are. And who do you admire at the moment in the public eye that, you know, who inspires you? Well, I mean, at the moment he's died, unfortunately. But Leonard Cohen has to be one of my all time inspirational figures. He's an absolute hero. Not only because, oh gosh, you know, just like every other woman, I was completely in love with him, but because he was able to communicate. He communicated in this incredible way that managed. Well, he communicated on a very deep level. I think that's why I used to go to concerts of his and, and I would watch how when he was just talking, let alone when he was singing, how all the men and women of all different ages all around me would, would be crying one minute, laughing the next just by what he was saying. He was so touched and moved by him. And a lot of it was to do with his humility, but just his empathy, I think, of the human spirit, the human condition. I think that's really. He's very, very inspirational. Well, obviously his poetry, his writing, but particularly how he spoke and how he sang for me were the, yeah. Were the biggest inspirations. You quite liked him. I did, I did, I did, yes. No, he was a, he was a wonderful, you know, like a wonderful soul. You can see his soul. Or that's what we all thought anyway. And he may be wrong. Maybe that's what he wanted. Yeah, maybe that's what he wanted us to think. Exactly. So then would that mean that, that I was going to ask you who are your favourite authors and authors? Well, authors I'm always, always, always drawn to writers who, who speak my language in that tell it how it really, really is on an emotional level. And Alexandra Fuller is a writer whose first book, I think it's her first book called Don't Let's Go to the Dogs Tonight. She wrote, she was brought up in Zimbabwe when it was war torn and she wrote about her life and family there. She wrote about her mum's very sad decline into alcoholism. And she wrote with such, I don't know, definitely defiant bravery and beauty. I mean, it's. When you read her books, I feel like I'm reading her heart and soul. It's sort of a privilege to read also. Sharing a journey. Sharing a journey, yeah. Really very, very uplifting. They're brutally uncomfortable reads a lot of the time because the pain is huge and obviously life in Africa with that sort of. Of endless challenge is very beautifully depicted in her writing. Another one is Jay Griffiths, who wrote a love letter to a Stray moon. And in this book she channels Frida Kahlo, who's the wonderful Mexican artist who had these unbelievable difficulties in life and overcame them by painting and using the. This creativity, which was an extraordinary creativity. And she writes Jay Griffiths. It's also so, so moving and free. Her writing is so free and deep that you don't know at the end, you sort of don't know who to hug more. Frida Kahlo for her suffering or Jay Griffiths for putting us in her skin. It's really an amazing book. I need to write that one down. Yeah, it's wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. I like books that really challenge your perception. Yes. And do you know what? Even if someone's got something to say or an opinion you don't have to agree with, just helps you understand people. What could be worse than nothing? Just wanting to understand people. I think it's absolutely fantastic. And when they're putting their voice to. Goes up at notch in being fantastic, doesn't it? So you're. They're putting their creative voice into it and it makes you understand them even more. Rather than just hearing about their life story. How they see it is that their voice in it is the thing that makes you understand them. I think so. Bit left field. Do you ever listen to audiobooks? I used to, obsessively. When I drove a lot. Living in France, I drove a lot and. And oh my God, I listen to them all the time. Love them. Absolutely love them. I haven't for ages. I've got out of the habit. But I must, I must see. I like them. I mean, I prefer a book. Kindle makes it easier, especially if you're broad and you can't take too many books with you. And depending on what kind of bag you're taking out for the day, it can be quite heavy. But also it's a time saver, audible when you're driving to work or if you're Running. And we're so busy doing this, that and whatever, that I could never go for a run and not listen to something. It's got to be music or it's got to be an audio. Really. Yeah. I have to multitask. That is something I probably need to work on. Well, I mean, listen, you're enriching yourself all the way, aren't you? I mean, you're not exactly idling. It's wonderful to do that. Well, I did at one point. I read the Fire and Fury by Trump and I only wanted to read it because people were talking about it, so I could join in the conversation, but it had to be on audible because I thought otherwise I would just. My eyes would just go, no, I can't do this. It had to be forced upon me, forced into my ears, otherwise I couldn't. I don't want to get too political, but that was not a book I could read. I had to have somebody doing the reading for me. Yes, no, I understand that. And you're right. It takes you into another world, doesn't it? Audiobooks. I love that about it. And not everybody likes reading or can read. No, no, no, exactly. A lot of people have trouble reading, so it is. I would like mine to be on audio very much. Yeah. I think that's the next step, surely. Yes, yes, yes. Love it. Yeah. And just to make sure, I mean, Ruby Wax said that it was a great journey and so harrowing. Yes. Well, next time you see her, you can tell her. I agree. A tale of our times. Anne Robinson. Yes. You know these people. That's quite handy. Well, Anne. Yes, Anne, I do. And Ruby I've met. Otherwise I wouldn't have dared ask either of them what they read it and see what their thoughts were. But, yes, I think they both. It resonated with both of them. It resonated with me, too. Resonates, I think, just generally. And it's also. It's not about having a perfect story. It's about going over things, just going, why am I doing this again? Exactly. Reminding people that you just. We can't be perfect and we'll still keep on making these mistakes or the same mistake over and over again in different guises. That's the awful thing. And that addiction isn't always about drugs or alcohol or tv. It can be an addiction to constantly going down the same path, the path of familiarity. I mean, people do go around, don't they, all the time saying that everyone's addicted to something. Shopping, gambling, whatever it is. I'm not Going to say that myself, because I. I don't know that for sure. But I mean, I think it's. If addiction is an escape from discomfort or boredom or frustration or fear of failure or all those things, or distraction. Or distraction, then of course anything can become an addiction. Anything is true. And it does. And it does. Some of them have more credence than others, but that's something that everybody needs to work on and understand that, you know, I can get addicted to so many different things, but it's an addiction to the feeling that you get from that. Yeah, absolutely. There's. What did I read somewhere? You're addicted to falling in love. Oh, you're not addicted. You're not addicted to the person. It's the feeling you get from falling in love. It's the high, isn't it? Yeah. And all the numbing. All your. So if you're in pain because you, you, you're. You're depressive or you're incredibly anxious, it's the numbing of those feelings that. Well, obviously drink and drugs do that, but even so, shopping will do that. Falling in love with somebody else self harm does it. It takes your mind, shifts your brain from your sadnesses or your pains or your discomfort in your own self to something else. And that gives you a. A weird sort of high. But again, books like this help us to understand what it is that's going on in our heads because the human brain is incredibly complex and so simple, in other words, and also so good at denying everything. So that's the other thing. I knew it was my brain's fault. It's not my fault. No, exactly. And everything's fine. I would go, no, no, we'll be fine tomorrow. Or, you know, it's not a problem. Oh, no, I've got this undercover. Everybody always says, I've got this under control, don't they? All the time. Yeah. This isn't a problem. One doth protesteth too much. I can't believe I managed to say that quite, quite so eloquently. It's been an absolute delight chatting to you today and you enjoyed it. I'm gonna put. I've put the details of your book up on my website. Anyway, it's in one of my latest book reviews. Thank you. And. And people can get it from most bookshops and Amazon everywhere as well. Yes, yes. Read it, do it. If it's good enough for Ruby Wax and Nan Robinson, it's good enough for everybody else, that's who. My favourite people. Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. Welcome to the Women's Radio Station Supporting Women's well Being Women's Radio Station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash, but just don't know where to start. @empowerandenrich.org you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. Get in touch with me@empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Hello, my name is Natasha Ann Kelleher. Welcome to you lovely lady listeners of your very own Women's Radio Stat station. Over the coming months, I'll be doing a survey in big brand coffee shops, interviewing customers asking why they like to drink coffee and if they would like to give us a health tip. For our listeners, the most shared and liked post will be the winner of a prize. Stay tuned for further details. Hi, I'm Carolyn Van Bo.