[Speaker 1] (0:00 – 6:47)
Hello, this is Anna Kennedy. We’re talking all things autism and what a beautiful day it is today here in London. It’s about time we had some good weather.

So I’ve got a few little bits to talk to you about and then I will introduce my guest. It was the lovely Asher Jenna. So before I talk to Asher, I just want to talk to you a little bit about what’s been going on.

Well, well, well, we have announced our Autumn Scott Talent performance, the Roadshow performance that will be performing at the Globe Theatre in Stockton. How excited is everyone? We spoke to them all last week.

They are absolutely buzzing, as you can imagine. So I’m really excited as well to be going to the Northeast because I am patron to Daisy Chain, which is a charity I’ve been patron to for quite a few years now. And they’ve just opened as well a mega superstore in Gateshead.

So check out the Daisy Chain website. Lots of information on there. So I’m just going to give you the names.

I’m going to announce the names of the performance. So Autumn Scott Talent is an opportunity for talented autistic children and adults to shine on the stage. And we cannot wait to see them all.

We want them to show us their talent. So we have Harvey Price, Kieran Lee, Jasmine Brinkhurst, Lauren Lovejoy, Martin Finn, Charlotte Lewis, Marcus Mason Williams, Holly Allison, Stencil Pencils, Charlie Conway, Dylan Pitt, Alana Barry, Ruby Johnson, Brooklyn Burgess, Anna Chester, Sean, Alan Mulroy, Fred Tennant, the Beverly School Choir, Colby Macro, who’s going to be singing. Bobby Lathrun also has written a song and that’s going to be performed by Beth Miller.

If you want to buy some tickets, it’s information on our charity website just to remind you www.annakennedyonline.com. It can go straight to the theatre, which is the Globe Theatre in Stockton, and you can buy your tickets. For a more autism-friendly seating arrangement, every fourth row will be kept empty.

This increases seating options for individuals who may prefer to avoid having someone directly in front or behind them, and it is a relaxed performance. So everyone is so excited. I’ve had so many messages.

Everyone’s buzzing. I can’t wait. Not long to go on May 20th.

If you’re still interested in entering our Autism’s Got Talent in London, which is the big show, it’s been doing it for 12 years now. I can’t believe it. 12 years.

So many talented performers from across the country and also overseas. So the closing date will be the beginning of May. So if you’re interested, send in your entries.

Again, check out the charity website. Look at the events page. You’ll see Autism’s Got Talent.

And we want to hear whether you’re a singer, a dancer, a musician, a magician, whether you’re in a group, whether you’re a duet, whether you’re a solo, whether you’re a dancer. Whatever it is that you do, we want to see your talent. And don’t forget, we’re also going to be launching in America.

I’m so excited about that. I can’t even tell you how excited I am for that particular one. It’s with our overseas ambassador, Dani Bowman.

She is an amazing young woman. If you want to nominate someone for the Autism Hero Awards, again, all the information is on the charity website. We have 10 to 12 different categories.

So if you know someone that goes the extra mile, whether they’re a business, whether they’re a parent, a carer, a sibling. Just we want to know what they’re all about because we are looking to find everyone that’s doing that little bit extra to make it a little bit easier for people that are living within the autism community. As you know, I always publicize a box.

I’m just looking at this book. It’s got a lovely purple colour, purple. I absolutely love purple.

It’s okay to be made. Great drawings at the front. So it’s really okay.

Anyone who lives with autism knows the struggle with people, not understanding why we are different. In this wonderfully illustrated book, Lauren explains the struggle she faces and explains why she is who she is. And ultimately why it’s okay to be made.

It’s okay to ask questions. That’s the only way we’ll learn. So if you’re interested in checking out this book, it’s on www.laurenlizartworks.co.uk. Or if you just check out Compass Publishing, you will see the book on there. Some really, really lovely illustrations. And I got signed copies. I’m really happy with that.

And it’s dedicated to those who have been told you could be normal if you tried. Normal is boring. So this is for you.

I like this book a lot. Also some information that, as you know, obviously it’s Autism Acceptance Month, the month of April. We’ve had Autism Acceptance Week.

We’ve had World Autism Acceptance Day. So we’ve had quite a few articles on the charity website. I just wanted to highlight one.

One of my ambassadors and patrons is Callum Kiraj. He’s 16 and in year level, or even 11, he goes to an autism school and finds skill hard. I find it hard to sit and concentrate because of my ADHD.

I don’t do running lessons and I’m anxious because it’s exam year. Oh, I know that I can remember that myself. And that really stresses me.

And I also have to make decisions about my future, which I don’t cope with. When I’m stressed, I know it affects how I behave. And I wish teachers would understand that sometimes I act in different ways because I just can’t deal with what’s going on to try and shut things out.

Things that help me are people listening to how I feel and not having a gourmet. Movement breaks during class. I also like the boxing room, which really helps when I’m stressed.

I like being active and my favourite thing in school is doing Duke of Edinburgh. I think schools need to look past behaviour more. I know that we don’t all cope with doing things the same way.

And that’s Calvin Kiraj, one of my charity ambassadors and patrons. So that article was shared and it’s been shared quite a few times across social media. I think a lot of people resonated with that particular article.

And the last thing I just wanted to share is that there were over 87,350 new referrals for suspected autism last year. That’s an average of 239 new referrals each day. You can see all of the statistics if you go on the NHS digital website and type in autism and diagnosis.

Wow, that’s scary. 87,350 and 239 new referrals each day. And the reason I say it’s scary is because of the cost of living crisis.

It’s just having a knock-on effect on everything, whether it’s to do with diagnosis, whether it’s to do with school, transition, workplace.

[Speaker 2] (6:47 – 6:47)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (6:48 – 7:42)
Okay then, right, let’s get on with our guests. So I’m excited to share that I have Asha Jenner. So she’s 18 years old, she loves dancing, so do I.

What’s not to like? Opera singing, Marvel films, Star Wars, Harry Potter, My Dog, Roxy and Anime. I hope I did that right.

I’m on the autism spectrum and I have a specific condition known as graphical demand avoidance or PDA. I’ve also suffered some major mental health issues including a meeting disorder and I was extremely ill for a very long time. So I’m not going to share any more because I want Asha to say it in her own words.

So welcome Asha. Hi. Hello, thank you.

I’m good and thank you so much for joining me today. I’m looking forward to chatting to you. So before we talk about anything to do with your autism or your dance, I want to know a little bit about who is Asha.

Where abouts are you from?

[Speaker 2] (7:43 – 8:08)
Well, I’m from the East Riding of Yorkshire. So I’m a Yorkshire lass. North East.

Yeah. And I love dancing, which you’ve already said, but I like love it. It’s my special interest.

It’s my obsession. OK. But I also love fantasy.

Right. And I love reading as well. And obviously I love my dog.

[Speaker 1] (8:09 – 8:19)
So can I just ask before, how was school for you when you were growing up? Was it was it stressful or did you manage OK? Or did you just about manage or how was it?

[Speaker 2] (8:22 – 8:49)
Well, basically my mainstream primary school experience was found to be one of the major contributors and traumas to me during my therapy. And they figured out that that was one of the reasons for some of my severe mental health issues. So that tells you how well that went.

How old were you when you were diagnosed? Seven. But it was a private diagnosis and it wasn’t technically correct because it was ODD instead of PDA.

[Speaker 1] (8:51 – 8:59)
So when did you actually know yourself that you had this diagnosis? Did your mum tell you? How did you progress?

[Speaker 2] (8:59 – 9:38)
She pretty much told me as soon as I got the first private diagnosis because I’ve had two private diagnosis. So she told me after the first one I can remember saying thank goodness for that. At least I’m not going mad.

I honestly thought that I was going mad because literally all these things were happening and I could not control them. And I did not know how I could just be like other children and behave like other children and be accepted like other children. And what about friends?

Pretty much non-existent. And how about now? I’ve got friends now.

[Speaker 1] (9:39 – 9:55)
Oh, pleased to hear that. So let’s talk about your dancing because I always love talking about dancing because that’s my thing. I started dancing when I was about six.

I used to do tap dancing but I used to love the rhythms. So talk to me about your favourite dance and how did you start dancing and how old were you?

[Speaker 2] (9:56 – 10:09)
I was three years old when I first started dancing. So very young. And I started doing ballet.

And I don’t particularly have a favourite type of dance. I’m sorry to tell you this is everything apart from tap.

[Speaker 1] (10:10 – 10:13)
Oh, how dare you.

[Speaker 2] (10:14 – 10:22)
Everything apart from tap. I cannot do tap. It’s just the mind to the feet does not work.

I tell you something, ballet was not my favourite.

[Speaker 1] (10:23 – 10:52)
Do you know why? Because I found it too slow. I like things that are fast like jazz and tap and they used to do disco and all that sort of things.

The slower it was, the worse. I struggled. So, yeah, isn’t it funny how people sort of warm to different dancers?

Because I remember when I was learning the Charleston with Robin, he sort of was hinting at what he was winding me up. He kept saying, oh, we’re going to do the waltz. And I was just thinking, no, please, not the waltz.

It’s too slow.

[Speaker 2] (10:55 – 11:27)
It’s not too slow for me. When you get to the harder grades, even though it may seem slow, you’re using so many muscles in a particular way. Yeah.

It actually feels quite good. And I just recently started doing contemporary, which can be slower. It can be quick.

Yeah. It’s very much encompassing of everything that I love about dance within contemporary. So if I had to pick a favourite, it would probably be contemporary.

OK, so where do you go to? Where do you go to dance school? I go to a dance school in York, but I’m also doing some lessons at the Northern School of Contemporary Dance.

Oh, wow.

[Speaker 1] (11:29 – 11:33)
So do they make reasonable adjustments for you or do you need them?

[Speaker 2] (11:34 – 11:58)
Oh, they make very much reasonable adjustments. They are so good in Northern School of Contemporary Dance and my dance class in York. My dance class in York even has allowed me to start assistant teaching.

So I help out teaching with the little kids and all that kind of stuff. They’re so cute. And they make sure that I feel OK and that everything is correct for me in my sensory diet.

Like for the facts with my sensory processing disorder also comes with dyspraxia.

[Speaker 1] (11:58 – 11:58)
Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (11:59 – 12:21)
So I have no spatial awareness. So what my teacher did, because she notices, I remember my place by looking at the floor. All right.

Or I remember my place on the floor, because otherwise I don’t know where I am in space and time. So what she did is she got little colored markers on edges of the stage. So then out of the corner of my eye, I could see where I was supposed to be at each point.

[Speaker 1] (12:23 – 13:08)
Clever. When we do Autumn’s Got Talent, we have to have sometimes we have to put crosses on the floor for whatever the performer requires. So that just sort of gives them a marker for people that obviously find it difficult with spatial awareness.

And I remember when I first set up the school, Millingham Manor School, I started teaching the children dance because I wanted to see how they would cope with it. And they did really, really well. And what I did was, at first they would like to almost be on top of me.

And then after that, they would just put your arms in front of you. If you’re touching someone, you’re too close. Put your arms to the side.

If you’re touching someone, you’re too close. And that’s how we sort of started with them respecting their own space and everybody else’s.

[Speaker 2] (13:08 – 13:10)
Yeah. It doesn’t mean anything.

[Speaker 1] (13:12 – 13:20)
It still happens. Yeah. So it’s good experience for you as well, because it all adds to, you know, whatever it is that you’d like to do.

[Speaker 2] (13:20 – 13:41)
Would you think you’d like to be a dance teacher? Definitely. I want to run a fully inclusive dance school for anyone.

So age, race, size, disability, whatever. Yeah. Because I’ve been discriminated against in so many aspects of my life, and that includes dancing.

[Speaker 1] (13:43 – 14:57)
Well, when you do open it, will you invite me? Yeah. You’ll be the guest of honour.

Oh, thank you. I’d love to come. I love anything to do with dance.

I was just chatting as well to Christina, who used to be on Strictly, and she’s teaching children who are autistic to dance. And she said she just finds it so rewarding. So from last couple of years, we did some dance day at the end of April.

So what I asked people to do is everyone to dance because it’s so much fun and it’s feel good. So she actually did a little routine for people to follow. And this was about two or three years ago.

And since then, she has had a few autistic children that have joined her dance school. And she said she just loves teaching them. She just said she finds it very, very rewarding.

I love dance because I find it a bit of a stress buster for me. And also, I don’t have to think about anything. I can just be in the moment, if you like.

So what are the main contributors? Do you think to mental health issues? And I believe, because we were chatting previously about eating disorders.

And I’ve spoken to quite a few autistic teenagers and people in their 20s that are suffering with eating disorders. So this is of interest to me.

[Speaker 2] (14:58 – 15:20)
Well, my main contributes to all of my mental health issues. First off, mainstream primary school experience and CAMS treatment, or shall we say, very much a lack of over a period of 10 years. So basically, CAMS refused to diagnose me.

As they said, I wasn’t autistic enough. Whatever that means.

[Speaker 1] (15:20 – 15:23)
I’ve heard that before as well. Very frustrating.

[Speaker 2] (15:24 – 15:34)
Yeah, at the age of six, they told me that myself harming and attempts to kill myself, which started at the age of five, retention seeking and naughty behavior.

[Speaker 1] (15:34 – 15:36)
Well, that was helpful, not.

[Speaker 2] (15:36 – 15:45)
Yeah. They basically said I was a very naughty child and have no condition. And their attitudes didn’t change over a 10-year period.

[Speaker 1] (15:46 – 15:47)
So how did you cope?

[Speaker 2] (15:49 – 16:19)
Not very good before. I’ve had pretty much an anxiety as well as the PDA anxiety. So pathological demand avoidance comes with its own anxiety and it’s run by anxiety, because that’s the entire point of our demand avoidance, is that our anxiety makes us demand avoidance.

So I had that as well as the fact that I also have general anxiety, but everyone was just saying it’s the autism anxiety. But then that led into a depression, which then eventually led to an eating disorder.

[Speaker 1] (16:22 – 16:25)
And how are you doing now with your mental health and eating disorder?

[Speaker 2] (16:27 – 16:48)
I’m doing much better. I’m doing quite well, actually. But I don’t want anyone to be listening to this and think, oh, that’s unreachable, because I can remember myself being like, oh, I’ll never get to that place, because you can.

But the thing is, you need the right support and you need the right help to do so. And it doesn’t mean that I’m fixed. I’m never fixed.

I still have panic attacks. I still have anxiety attacks.

[Speaker 1] (16:49 – 16:57)
So talk to me about the eating disorder, because I’m particularly interested in that. Can you give any tips and advice for people that have been likely suffering and are listening in?

[Speaker 2] (16:59 – 18:16)
Well, firstly, it’s best that you understand yourself that you’ve got one, because that’s the first step, is understanding that, yes, I do have an issue with my eating. But also, it’s very common for autistic people to have issues with eating and food in general. So it’s really normal.

And you need to know that you want to make a change or need to make a change. So I would suggest reaching out to someone who knows you very well, who knows full condition inside and out, and basically explain things to them. Because talking, I know it sounds a bit cliché, but it does help.

It really does help. And I found the main thing is to find the root cause of the eating disorder or any other of the issues, because I also had OCD and germ anxieties to go away as well as the disorder. So if I found the root cause of that, which was my past trauma and not being able to accept myself because of that past trauma, that’s it.

Whereas a lot of places now with the methods that they gave, they gave the mortally method, they just treat the way. They treat the food. They don’t treat the root cause behind the eating disorder, which is very much different for people who have autism.

[Speaker 1] (18:18 – 18:34)
OK, so you’re talking about the root cause. How can you pin… How did you…

Well, let’s just say, because obviously you’re not going to be able to speak very much. How did you pinpoint your root cause? Did it take a while?

Did you have to break it down? How long did it take?

[Speaker 2] (18:35 – 19:21)
It took a while. It did take a while. The first thing of treatment is always to get the weight back up.

And that’s not because of that’s just treating the weight like most things would do. No, that is to get your brain to the point where it actually has the nutrients to be able to think about things. But then there was also a lot of therapy and it was altered therapy.

So it wasn’t classic CBT. It wasn’t classic group therapy or anything. It was holistically made for me.

So then I could basically create my own conclusion as to what was the root cause of my issues and then be able to help with that root cause.

[Speaker 1] (19:22 – 19:34)
OK, because a lot of autistic people that speak to teenagers and adults and parents who talk to me about their children have sensory issues over food. Do you think that contributes to the eating disorder as well?

[Speaker 2] (19:34 – 19:41)
I think that very much does for most people. I can’t really comment on that because I’ve never struggled with sensory issues with food.

[Speaker 1] (19:42 – 20:26)
OK. OK, yeah, because I know that with both my sons because Angelo, when he eats things, he prefers to eat with his fingers rather than I can fork. He will do, but he prefers to eat with his fingers because he needs to…

For example, if he’s eating chips, he likes to make sure that they’re soft and then he’ll flick off the end of each chip because he doesn’t like the crunchy bit at the end. So yeah, that’s just something to do with him. With reference to my eldest son Patrick when he was younger, he used to smell his food a lot or he didn’t have to touch.

For example, if he was eating fish and fingers and chips or they didn’t have to touch each other, they had to be separate. He doesn’t care now, but at that time… Yeah, so there’s lots of different bearing issues with reference to sensory.

[Speaker 2] (20:27 – 20:53)
Yeah, that is very much a theme and I do know of places that do specialise in that. Like, I know that Dr Elizabeth Shea is particularly a person who knows about that particular area a lot. She’s actually writing a self-help book at the moment, which I might be chiming in on.

OK, good. I’m just understanding… S-H-E-A, I think.

[Speaker 1] (20:54 – 21:09)
OK, all right. And just in case somebody’s listening, they might like to look her up. So if you’ve talked to me previously when we had our little free chat about the Ellen Mead, what exactly is that?

I believe it’s a treatment and was it successful for you?

[Speaker 2] (21:10 – 21:43)
It’s a private company actually that deals with mental health. They deal with the most… They’re international as well, so don’t think you can just get them here.

They’re international. With the most complex cases within eating disorders and they tend to be experts of eating disorders with combinations of comorbid conditions. So that can be autism as now because of me, PDA, and other conditions like maybe personality disorders, OCD, all that kind of stuff.

[Speaker 1] (21:43 – 21:48)
OK, so is that private, or can you get it through the National Health Service?

[Speaker 2] (21:49 – 21:54)
A bit of both. It’s a private company, but I managed to get into one of their inpatient units via the NHS.

[Speaker 1] (21:55 – 21:58)
OK, so there are options, if you can say.

[Speaker 2] (21:58 – 22:14)
The thing is, they only take people on usually after they’ve had three, four types of inpatient treatment that hasn’t worked. You can fight to get there if they believe it’s the right place, which my mom did. We had to get a bit legal.

OK, that’s generally what happens.

[Speaker 1] (22:15 – 22:30)
If you feel comfortable sharing, could you give me some sort of idea what the treatment entails or someone listening in thinking, oh, I might like to go for that, but I’m not sure. Just anything that you feel comfortable with, the treatment that worked for you.

[Speaker 2] (22:31 – 23:46)
Well, the treatment that worked for me is very different because I was the first ever known patient with PDA. Right. And so what they had to do, because of my PDA diagnosis, they had to basically throw out all the things that they would normally do.

So even they were like, we don’t exactly know what to do. They do know a basis of what to do for PDA is now. Right.

And that basically remove as many demands as possible. Like, if there’s any standard rules, standard treatments that don’t need to be used, just take them out, rip them up, burn them, whatever. And sort out anything around anxiety.

So reduce anxiety as much as possible. That tends to help. And then basically they read my diagnosis.

They read my hospital passport. They even got an expert in PDA to train all the staff. So they, they’re very well trained.

They’re very well knowledgeable about all of these things about PDA. But I know a few people there who just, who didn’t have PDA, but were autistic and had eating disorders. So they’re very good with all of, all of us essentially.

[Speaker 1] (23:47 – 24:02)
Okay. So if you had to explain how your PDA affects you in an easily digestible language, what, how, how, how would you say, what if someone was listening in now and talked to you, what’s that? What exactly is that?

How would you explain it to someone?

[Speaker 2] (24:03 – 25:11)
PDA is basically, I’m going to use it with the thing. It’s pathological demand avoidance. The logical just basically means your brain is wired this way.

My brain’s like a computer and it’s pathologically wired to avoid anything. It seems to be a demand. And the demand is a very wide thing.

It can be like a straight up demand that someone gives you, which most people think it is, but it can be self-imposed demands or it can be everyday tasks, like getting up in the morning, brushing your teeth, going to school, doing schoolwork, that kind of thing. That can be a major demand, but there’s also the autistic demands as well of maybe giving eye contact, being involved in a social situation, that kind of stuff as well. So it’s actually quite hard to live with sometimes because that anxiety of demand avoidance will pop up in any way it can.

So sometimes I’ll just leave. Sometimes I’ll get really rude for some reason, rude in quotation marks. It’s not.

It’s just I can’t cope at that moment.

[Speaker 1] (25:12 – 25:23)
Okay. So how do you think you’re going to cope as you get older and you live on your own? Do you think have some strategies in place to help you live day to day?

[Speaker 2] (25:24 – 26:08)
I do. I do. First off, it’s the fact that I get the right support that I get from school because I go to a special school.

I get the right support at home. That really helps as well as the fact that I know that I need to basically I can focus on things and do things for a little while. And then I need to chill.

I cannot focus for a very long time. And in my chill time, sometimes I’ll just need to zone out. I’ll need to maybe get a fantasy book, put sensory lights on, get some smell ease in my diffuser.

Just whatever I need, just chill. And then I’m ready to go back in to society and cope with the demands and then come back out.

[Speaker 1] (26:08 – 26:08)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (26:08 – 26:28)
So what kind of fantasy books do you like reading? Smutty ones. All right.

Oh, remember we’re on there. I know. Okay, moving on.

Moving on slowly.

[Speaker 1] (26:29 – 26:47)
Oh, maybe quickly. So talk to me about your special school, Robert Ogden School. So what is the Robert Ogden School all about?

And how long have you been there? Or how long were you there? Because some schools go on until 25.

Is this school to 18, 19? Or is it 25?

[Speaker 2] (26:47 – 27:18)
It’s up to 19. And it is basically, it’s a general autistic school. So it has everyone varying from God knows how many areas of the spectrum.

But what they do have is they have specialist PDA hub units. There’s two of them. I’m in hub one.

Right. And what happens then is basically separate to the rest of the school. And it’s for anyone with PDA or anyone who basically needs PDA strategies.

[Speaker 1] (27:19 – 27:22)
Okay. So how many is in your unit?

[Speaker 2] (27:25 – 27:25)
11.

[Speaker 1] (27:27 – 27:28)
Okay. And what sort of age group?

[Speaker 2] (27:29 – 27:44)
It’s, it really varies. I know in hub two, they have as young as about seven, eight. Yeah.

And there’s obviously 18, 19 year olds like me. Okay.

[Speaker 1] (27:44 – 27:54)
So how do you find that then? Because we’ve been with much younger children and then you’re 17, 18. So they have to sort of manage the way they speak to both.

[Speaker 2] (27:54 – 28:02)
Well, here’s the thing. We get our own classrooms. We’ll one-to-one the entire time.

We get our own classrooms, which we can decorate in any way we want.

[Speaker 1] (28:02 – 28:02)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (28:03 – 28:10)
Use our own timetable, which is different from the rest of the school. We get to decide on the day whether we want to do a particular lesson or not.

[Speaker 1] (28:11 – 28:14)
Okay. So how does that work with exams then?

[Speaker 2] (28:15 – 28:52)
It works because basically with the, with the freedom to know that you have that choice. Right. You, you’re more likely to do the demand of the lesson.

Okay. So I do the lesson and I get pretty good marks on my exam. Obviously the exam days are a massive demand, but can’t really get past that.

But there’s also a choice of doing exams and not doing exams. I know people who, plenty of people who’ve left and not done any exams. Whereas it’s a choice to be on this first to do exams or not.

And if we do, we can always move the important lesson to another day. Okay.

[Speaker 1] (28:52 – 28:59)
So quite flexible then. So extremely flexible. So what exams are you currently doing or have done?

[Speaker 2] (28:59 – 29:04)
I’ve done my English language and I’m going to show off now, but I got one mark off a level nine.

[Speaker 1] (29:05 – 29:07)
Wow. Look at you.

[Speaker 2] (29:08 – 29:09)
Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (29:10 – 29:12)
Well done that girl woman.

[Speaker 2] (29:13 – 29:25)
And I’m doing two this year. So I’ve got my biology GCSE this year and my English literature. And then next year, my last year I’m doing history and maths.

[Speaker 1] (29:26 – 29:42)
So what are you like sort to the build up to exams? Because I’ve spoken to a couple of people actually just recently. So stressed, getting ready to do exams.

So what are you like? And if you’re okay, what’s the secret?

[Speaker 2] (29:43 – 30:10)
There isn’t a secret to be honest. If for me, it’s just knowing that I’m as prepared as I can be to, for my anxieties, the more, not to the point of exhaustion. So the more I revise, the more I actually get things done within the realms of my PDA.

Obviously I can’t do revised, revised, revised, because that would be a complete burnout. But just making sure that I’m prepared for everything, really helps my anxiety. And it makes me think, yeah, I’ve got this.

[Speaker 1] (30:11 – 30:13)
I like your attitude. It’s good.

[Speaker 2] (30:15 – 30:17)
But then you’ll see me on the day and I’m a nervous wreck.

[Speaker 1] (30:18 – 30:25)
So you’ve got, sounds like you’ve got good support from your family. I’ve got amazing support. So that’s key as well, isn’t it?

[Speaker 2] (30:25 – 30:26)
I couldn’t ask for better.

[Speaker 1] (30:27 – 30:40)
Oh, I bet your mum’s crying in the background now. I’ve got a little mum. So when you finished the Robert Ogden school, so you say when you’re 19, what happens after that?

[Speaker 2] (30:42 – 30:50)
Well, I’m hopefully going to study dancing somewhere. I’m hoping to do a degree at the normal school contemporary dance, but we’ll have to see.

[Speaker 1] (30:51 – 30:54)
Yeah. So what does that entail? Do you know what it’s all about?

[Speaker 2] (30:55 – 30:58)
Well, not exactly.

[Speaker 1] (30:59 – 31:00)
Okay. And will you still live at home?

[Speaker 2] (31:01 – 31:04)
Yeah. No, actually, no, sorry.

[Speaker 1] (31:06 – 31:11)
So that’s a big step then, isn’t it? Transition into from home. How do you think you’ll cope with that?

[Speaker 2] (31:12 – 31:23)
I think I’ll cope quite well, actually, because you get to go in houses with other people. I’m sorry for the thing. I got confused with what I’m auditioning for this year.

[Speaker 1] (31:24 – 31:27)
That’s okay. So living with other people, do you think you’d be all right with that?

[Speaker 2] (31:28 – 31:30)
As long as they’re autism friendly.

[Speaker 1] (31:32 – 31:32)
Okay.

[Speaker 2] (31:32 – 31:35)
I hope so. So have you performed on stage?

[Speaker 1] (31:36 – 31:58)
Yes. Oh, and how are you? I always remember just before going on stage, I think, oh, I’ve forgotten it all.

I can’t remember anything. I’m not going on. And then once you get on stage, it’s just like once the music starts, you just think, oh, and just into the zone.

But it’s just like that panic just before I go on stage. It’s like, it can be quite overwhelming.

[Speaker 2] (31:59 – 32:10)
I get panicky that I’m going to get it wrong, but I never get panicky that I’m going to forget it. It’s like super power. I have an amazing memory.

My teacher will be like, I forgot it. What is it?

[Speaker 1] (32:10 – 32:50)
All right. Now, for me, it’s just like I don’t at the time, but it’s just beforehand. It feels like my mind’s gone blank and I’ve spoken to other people where say, for example, they might be going on to sing a song.

So I can’t remember any words. And then as soon as the music starts, and then it just, it’s just the anxiety. And I think the thing is for me, it’s because you want it to go so well and you’re so passionate about what you do that, you know, you, it’s just, it means a lot to you.

So I think for me, a lot of people who it doesn’t, that doesn’t have to maybe, I don’t know. I might. For me, it’s like, are they really passionate enough about what they’re doing?

Does it mean everything to them type of thing? But that’s just my opinion. I might be wrong.

[Speaker 2] (32:50 – 33:05)
I tend to think practically about it. So I’ll go through the things in my head going through it and making sure that I know everything. Get against the preparing, knowing that I’m prepared and ready, which comes with anxiety, which usually makes it go a lot better.

[Speaker 1] (33:06 – 33:10)
So have you ever done any podcasts before, presentations or training?

[Speaker 2] (33:10 – 33:13)
I’ve done lots of presentations and training, but I’ve never done a podcast.

[Speaker 1] (33:14 – 33:24)
Oh, so on your first one, then I’m on it. And I think you’re doing amazingly well. I bet your mum’s sitting on the side there, but she’s really proud of you.

[Speaker 2] (33:25 – 33:26)
I’m a bit annoyed about the book.

[Speaker 1] (33:28 – 33:40)
Don’t worry about that. So, yeah. So would you be happy to go in to do presentations at school to talk about PDA?

Because there’s not a lot of people who still know anything at all about PDA, to be fair.

[Speaker 2] (33:41 – 33:53)
Well, yeah, but that’s because it’s not even a recognized condition by most professionals. I’ve got a lot of well, it doesn’t exist. And I’m like, I’m here.

I exist.

[Speaker 1] (33:54 – 34:05)
So when you have given presentations, what sort of questions have people asked you? You know, are they really interested in what you’ve got to say, or they think, oh, I never thought about that, or what sort of things do they say to you?

[Speaker 2] (34:05 – 34:36)
I get a lot of positive feedback, a lot of positive feedback. And it depends on the presentation because I do PDA on its own, eating disorders and autism on its own. Like I do a whole, or PDA and eating disorders, I do a whole mission mash.

So depending on the subject, I’ll get different questions, obviously. Yeah. But it’s generally positive and it’s generally attitudes of wanting to learn, wanting to change things to make it so much better for people like me.

[Speaker 1] (34:37 – 34:44)
Oh, that’s good. Have you thought about writing a book? I’m just thinking, listening to you now, you’d probably write a really good self-help book.

[Speaker 2] (34:45 – 34:52)
Probably would. But I’ve got a lot on my plate and I would find it a demand. So maybe when I’ve got more time, bear in mind exams.

[Speaker 1] (34:53 – 35:38)
Yeah. True. And maybe after your exams, maybe something to think about is a book or maybe a blog.

You know, a lot of people after they’ve spoken to me on the radio have started blogs. You know, you can just post with reference to a blog, you know, you can do one a month, one every two, two months, it’s down to you as on where you post content on your blog. Because it’s your blog.

No one’s telling you, you know, that you need to post. It’s down to you. So that might be a good step in stone before you start writing a book.

Just a suggestion. So who, who inspires you? So can you pick out a few special people from your life so far that mean something to you?

And why did they mean something to you?

[Speaker 2] (35:38 – 36:13)
Well, I’ve always forgot mum and dad. I would not be here without them. That is for sure.

I play mum because she fought so hard to get me the support I needed. Shout out. Yeah, shout out to mum.

Yep. And then there’s school and everyone at Robert Upton School is absolutely amazing no matter where you are. But I’m just talking about the hubs because I love the hubs.

And they have managed to support me throughout everything and they’re supporting me to do my GCSEs. And they still somehow like me even though I support staff 24-7.

[Speaker 1] (36:14 – 36:26)
So where is it Robert Upton School? Whereabouts is it? It’s in Rotherham.

Okay, I’ve been to Rotherham. So it’s quite a trick for me. Yeah, would you say about an hour’s drive there and back?

[Speaker 2] (36:27 – 36:29)
Yeah, hour there and back, every day.

[Speaker 1] (36:30 – 36:32)
Okay. So who else, who else inspires you?

[Speaker 2] (36:34 – 37:10)
Well, my friends inspire me. I’ve made a few friends since I left the unit. One of them’s actually from the unit.

And they are so important and they accept and support me. This is because, this is just so weird because I literally had no one. I technically had one friend when I left the unit but they decided that they weren’t going to be my friend anymore the next time I met Robert Upton after I left.

and there’s also the fact that I had no friends in primary school. So they mean so much and they inspire me to be better.

[Speaker 1] (37:12 – 37:23)
Oh, that’s nice. And what about, have you got any dancers that you look up to that you think, oh, I’d love to meet them or you’d love to dance like them? Ooh.

Carlos Acosta.

[Speaker 2] (37:24 – 37:35)
Okay. Tell me about Carlos. Had to be.

He’s just so good. And then there’s Johannes strictly. Oh, I absolutely love him.

He’s one of us.

[Speaker 1] (37:35 – 37:36)
I’d love to go. He’s amazing.

[Speaker 2] (37:37 – 37:42)
I would like to see him live. He was poorly as well. And I was like, you’re dancing like that when you’re poorly.

[Speaker 1] (37:42 – 37:51)
Oh, he’s just amazing. I just love him. He’s just such a nice guy as well.

Yeah. He’s, I think he’s just started his tour.

[Speaker 2] (37:52 – 38:13)
Amazing. There’s so many dances where I’m like, I want to be like you. Who else?

Ooh. Trying to think now. Well, can I mention the dance school staff that I have?

Cause they inspire me. This is your moment.

[Speaker 1] (38:13 – 38:17)
You can mention. Yeah. As long as you don’t talk to me about smutty stuff, that’s fine.

[Speaker 2] (38:21 – 38:59)
My teacher and Miss Catherine, especially because she accepted me after so many people have rejected me in the dance world. And obviously there’s no other school contemporary dance who support me in amazing ways. And it’s really, really great to be accepted by a conservatoire, as they call themselves.

That basically doesn’t have to do that. They don’t have to go, oh yes, this is a disabled child. We don’t want to particularly help them because we don’t think they can make it in our conservatoire.

Where actually they go, no, you’re a really good dancer. Yeah. How can we help you achieve being even better?

[Speaker 1] (39:00 – 39:00)
Wow.

[Speaker 2] (39:01 – 39:02)
That’s amazing.

[Speaker 1] (39:02 – 39:41)
That’s the attitude. I’ve spoken to some parents where the schools are basically just said, I can’t teach them. I just think you just got to think out the box.

You just got to find the way, the way it’s, I don’t like it when people give up because my attitude is never given. So there’s all, there’s always a solution. There’s always a way around something.

So yeah. So what, what favorite piece of dance would you say that you’ve done on stage that you’ve thought, oh, I really love this dance. I really, really love the choreography.

I love the music and I love the way it makes me feel. Can you remember anything that you danced on stage, that you just felt wonderful?

[Speaker 2] (39:43 – 40:02)
That’s a hard one because I’ve done lots of dances that I’ve absolutely loved, but I’ve never necessarily done them on stage. I think maybe when I did competitions for like a little while, I did a Carmen inspired dance. Carmen inspired ballet.

It was a spiky flare.

[Speaker 1] (40:05 – 40:29)
I love Carmen. Absolutely. Yeah.

I love that sort of era as well. So I would like to talk to you about what you think the main issues are for youngsters like you who are maybe diagnosed with autism and also have a PDA profile or maybe just have autism, but they have a PDA, but it hasn’t been recognized.

[Speaker 2] (40:30 – 41:56)
Well, that’s usually the case. Most of us PDAs are diagnosed. And that’s because, as I mentioned earlier, most professionals does not believe it exists because it is not in the DSM-5.

So you get a lot of work doesn’t exist. And even if it is recognized, it does exist because so many people believe that it doesn’t exist. There is no support or service out there for us.

To be honest, I just feel like we’re seen as a problem because as soon as you mention it, people kind of have like this face, but professionals kind of have like this space and they’re like, well, we can’t do anything for you then. I’ve had that a lot personally. I’m not saying every professional is like that.

I’m not having to go. I’m just saying I’ve had that personally a lot, but because of all of this, many of us are treated incorrectly and end up traumatized like me. And those are just my experience.

I know several other people with similar things, and we can have mental health issues or other issues that just go basically unchecked. And even when we get to crisis, there are still no services within the NHS for us. So when I needed an impatient place, I was given a completely inappropriate place that did not even know about autism, nevermind PDA.

Well, that’s very sad.

[Speaker 1] (41:57 – 42:01)
Yeah. I’ve never heard about autism. That’s just like where have you been living under a rock?

[Speaker 2] (42:02 – 42:49)
Well, they had no training in it. And they said that I had to go there because no where else in the country was willing to take me. Okay.

But we basically, we found LMU after a bit of a fight. Yeah. but as we said, I’m the first known PDA patient who received altered treatment for the PDA and autism and ED in combination.

Which it should always be, you shouldn’t just look at one problem or one thing, you should look at all of them. And there are no guidelines for treatment other than the standard Muslim method, as we’ve said. It’s not suitable for autistic people, nevermind PDA people, because it doesn’t get to the root cause, as I said before.

[Speaker 1] (42:51 – 43:28)
So is there any useful PDA sites that you can recommend to people listening? PDA society. Yeah, I know them.

Yeah. I know them quite well. I actually did a walk with them where we delivered 500 letters to the department of health and social care.

So, yeah, I did a march with them. Sorry, who else? I just love the PDA society, to be honest.

Okay. Do you know the website off the top of your head? I’ve got it written.

It’s literally just PDA society.

[Speaker 2] (43:28 – 43:41)
Just type it in on Google. Yeah, that’s it. And they’ve got so much stuff.

They’ve got their panda approach. They’ve also got their stuff about eating disorders and PDA.

[Speaker 1] (43:41 – 43:49)
Okay, I can just rewind back now. So you said their panda stuff. So someone who doesn’t know what that is, they might think it’s a black and white bear.

So what is the panda?

[Speaker 2] (43:51 – 44:23)
It’s basically a method that they use to help people who have PDA. So it’s panda, it’s an acronym, I think. Is that the right word, acronym?

Yes. For pick your battles, adapt, negotiate and collaborate, disguise and manage demands and anxiety management. All of them in combination tend to work as a great support for people with PDA.

[Speaker 1] (44:25 – 45:05)
So have they got lots of resources on the site? I think they have, I remember. Yeah, they’ve got tons, absolutely loads.

That’s good. I love websites when they’ve got resources because then you don’t have to reinvent the wheel so you can just adapt it and use it for yourself. Like, for example, Ipsia is a very good website for parents that are trying to get through the EHCP or whatever it is that they’re trying to do.

They’ve got lots and lots of template letters on there so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel so you just adapt it that suits your particular situation or your child. So yeah, definitely recommend the PDA Society. Any books that you could recommend that to read?

[Speaker 2] (45:08 – 45:30)
Supporting Autistic People with Eating Disorders by Kate. No, I’ve got to try and not mess this up. Chandra?

How do you spell that? T-C-H-A-T-A-N-A.

[Speaker 1] (45:30 – 45:47)
Thank you. Do you know what I’m really impressed with you as well, so we’re chatting, is I’m throwing in questions here that you are having to think on your feet and answer me and obviously, you know, everyone writes notes and what have you, but you’re just getting on with it. So for me, that you’ve got, that’s a real skill.

So I just want to say, well done for that.

[Speaker 2] (45:48 – 45:55)
Yeah, there’s also PDA by PDAs, which is a lot to be particular, and PDA Paradox.

[Speaker 1] (45:56 – 47:48)
Thank you. So you’re going to be writing an article as well that says it’s going to be on the charity website. So some of these links that ASHA has recommended will be on the article.

So if you check out www.annaKennedyonline.com, look at the latest news page, you’ll see ASHA’s article talking a little bit about what she’s been chatting about today, about her experience on the radio, and sharing any useful links that, you know, might be, you think, oh, PDA Society, I can’t remember what she said, or this particular book, I can’t remember. They will be on that web page. And again, if you would like to be a guest on my program, Talking All Things Autism, please contact me.

I know I’m fully booked now until the sort of end of July, but if you would like to be a guest, please message Lisa, lisa.robins.annaKennedyonline.com, or you can use the contact form on the charity website, and then we can book you the next available date. I would need a short bio, and I’d need questions that you would like me to ask you, questions that you would feel comfortable me asking you. So, yeah, come on.

I want to hear from you, because sometimes there’s a lot of people that I’ve spoke to, it’ll be their first time on the radio, they’ve never given me the opportunity before, and, you know, it’s a really good opportunity, and also it can be quite therapeutic, and I’m not as scary as people might think. Am I, Asher? Yeah, all right, they were supposed to say yes.

I’m not scary. Okay, so let’s talk a little bit about, you’ve also assisted your local NHS to improve their care for autistic and PDA youngsters. Tell me about that.

[Speaker 2] (47:54 – 48:39)
Oh, yeah, sorry. That’s all right. I’m getting overloaded a bit.

That’s okay, we need to check now. I’ve worked with the Key Workers Service in NHS England, and it tends to be very good response, and it seems to be making a change for attitudes towards PDA and eating disorders, and holistic treatment altogether, generally. And there’s also, I’d like to mention the NHS, Dr. Barakar. Okay. She was the first person who ever looked in the NHS, who ever looked at my diagnosis and went, actually, you need different treatment than what is being offered to you. So that was a light bulb moment then, wasn’t it?

[Speaker 1] (48:42 – 48:47)
So you’ve been nominated for awards too, so tell me about that.

[Speaker 2] (48:48 – 49:18)
Well, I have been nominated for awards, but was it the BBC one? Yeah, other words for the BBC volunteer? Yeah, volunteer awards, Radio Humberside.

And it was a fun night out, I can tell you that. Okay. And it was basically just for doing the work which I do with presentations and training and helping other people.

Basically, I just like the fact that I got to get dressed up and go to an award ceremony.

[Speaker 1] (49:18 – 51:00)
Yeah, it’s lovely to get dressed up. So I’m sure with your mum sitting there in the background that we’ve got the autism hero award, so she might like to nominate you for that because the nominations are still open. I’m not the judge.

I couldn’t possibly be the judge. We have seven judges, and they find it so hard to choose the final three for each category. So your mum might like to nominate you.

So yeah, that closes, I think it’s the first week in June, if I remember correctly. So yes, just to remind everyone again about the autism hero awards, it’s www.autismheroawards.com. If you could nominate your hero, that goes the extra mile.

Someone might have helped you. It could be your mum, it could be a carer, it could be a sibling, it could be a business. It could be a reporter as well that writes really, really well.

It’s really good articles. So yes, we want to hear from you all. And then the three finalists will travel down to London, get dressed up, and they’ll have a three-course meal.

And then they can meet some celebs and then go on the red carpet and have their photographs taken. And then whoever wins will get an award. So yeah, it’s such a lovely night.

I just really enjoyed that particular evening. So this programme is about promoting wellbeing. So what do you do to relax?

So it’s very important. I’ve got a campaign that’s called Take Five. And it’s for people that, you know, a lot of people can get really focused on what they do.

I invite myself, I’m a bit of workaholic, but you need to have time out just for you, just to be Anna, just to be Asha. So what do you do to recharge your batteries?

[Speaker 2] (51:01 – 52:05)
First off, usually I dance, which is just great, just moving my body in a way that feels free. And it just calms me so much. And I also have, if I really can’t, if I don’t have the space to dance, so if I can’t cope that well, I always go to a dark room with sensory light, make sure everything’s quiet around me.

And I usually read one of my fantasy books or watch a fantasy film or use a few sensory toys. It’s only recently that I’ve started stimming again, because part of my trauma was that I wasn’t allowed to stim. So sensory toys is quite a new one for me, but that tends to help a lot.

And obviously I cuddle my dog because she’s the cutest thing in the world. Even if she doesn’t want to be cuddled, I am like, come here. Tell me about your dog, what kind of a dog you got?

I’ve got a black Labrador. And it’s a girl, obviously, and she is five years old and she’s absolutely lazy. Is she?

[Speaker 1] (52:06 – 52:27)
I wish my dog was lazy. She never stops. I’m sure my dog’s got ADHD.

She never stops and she’s glued to me. She follows me everywhere. She doesn’t like me going out.

And she’s lovely. I absolutely love her, but she seems to become more active at nighttime when I want to wind down.

[Speaker 2] (52:28 – 52:50)
Roxy, if she could sleep, well, she does. She sleeps all day, but she also came into the unit for therapy as well. Oh, okay.

That’s good. Yeah. She was particularly helpful with that.

And I also like to go on a walk with her as well. Have you always had pets? Pretty much, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (52:51 – 53:05)
Yeah, I think they’re great. You’re either a dog person or a cat person, so… Dog.

Yeah, I’m definitely a dog person. I know a lot of people are cat people. I love all animals.

And my son, Patrick, always says he prefers animals to people.

[Speaker 2] (53:06 – 53:08)
Yeah, I could see the appeal, definitely.

[Speaker 1] (53:09 – 53:11)
Yeah, he says they’re a bit more loyal.

[Speaker 2] (53:13 – 53:22)
They don’t also have the social rules that come with everything. So you’re not thinking, oh my God, what do I say here? What’s my body language saying?

What’s their body language saying?

[Speaker 1] (53:23 – 53:31)
You’re talking about getting dressed up. Some people have issues with, sensory issues with clothing. How are you with clothing?

[Speaker 2] (53:32 – 54:06)
I’m definitely much better than I was, but when I was younger, I went through a phase where I wouldn’t wear anything but skirts and dresses. Okay. And I also have an irrational fear of buttons, so…

Okay, so how does that work? Well, basically, I just wear really tight things. I can wear loose things on the upper half of my body, but I have to wear tight things around my legs and my ankles and other areas.

So I particularly like the tight feeling.

[Speaker 1] (54:07 – 54:50)
And I thought kind of with jeans. Okay. Yeah, my son, Patrick, when he was younger, he used to hit jeans.

He would never wear anything, but he wears jeans all the time now. And I just find it really weird where the go from one extreme to the other. So he just couldn’t stand the jean material next to his skin.

He said it was scratchy. He hated it. And now he just wears jeans all the time.

So I wonder when it sort of flips in the brain or the mind that it’s okay. It’s even to do with food issues with him when he was younger. It was like, oh, I don’t need to eat today because I ate yesterday.

And now he’ll just try anything. And it’s just like, I wonder when that flip is in the brain. Oh, I’m going to try that now.

[Speaker 2] (54:51 – 55:02)
I honestly don’t know because I’ve had them flips as well. I honestly don’t know. Yeah, mom can basically say for me, I’ve had those flips.

One day I was fine with buttons. The next day I would not put on my coat.

[Speaker 1] (55:02 – 55:13)
All right. Oh, so it’s been really lovely talking to you. We’ve still got a few minutes left.

Is there anything that you would like to share with our listeners?

[Speaker 2] (55:15 – 55:43)
Just that if you do have eating issues, there’s always hope. There’s always hope for anything. Anyway, there’s always hope for the autism.

There’s always hope for the PDA. There’s always hope for eating disorders, depression, anxiety. There’s always help there.

No matter how bad you feel in yourself, there is always hope there. There are people out there doing things that do want to help you and do, most importantly, understand you.

[Speaker 1] (55:44 – 56:05)
Have you ever had therapy? Yes. Would you recommend therapy?

Because some people don’t like therapy. They would think that would be no, not for me. And then there’s some people that just absolutely love therapy.

They feel that it’s the best thing for them. So how do you, what’s your sort of opinion on therapy?

[Speaker 2] (56:05 – 56:51)
Well, I think therapy, I feel like with mental health, it’s very much a stick to wanting and this is why therapy might not work for most people is because it’s very much we have to stick to the guidelines. We have to stick to what we’ve been taught. Whereas my therapy has always, well, not always, but the therapy that I got, which actually helped was altered holistically for me and I had altered CBT, DBT and CRT.

Right. So basically because it was focused on me and it was focused on my needs and what I needed, that’s why it actually really helped. Whereas I feel like most therapies are very much like, this is how the therapy is going to work.

This is how we’re going to do it. Whereas you’ve got to think people will do it in their own time, in their own way, if given the right understanding.

[Speaker 1] (56:53 – 57:13)
And you’ve got to find the right therapist that works for you as well. Because I know that my son’s had a few and he just hasn’t clicked with them. But this particular one he’s got at the moment, he’s been with them for about three years now.

And he just likes talking to her. He feels comfortable talking and sharing. You’ve got to try and find the right person, but also a person that’s going to be able to help you.

[Speaker 2] (57:14 – 57:17)
Yeah. Relationship with your therapist is absolutely key.

[Speaker 1] (57:18 – 57:30)
Yeah. Because sometimes I’ve spoken to people where they go to a therapist and they expect the therapist to tell them what to do to treat them and to cure them or whatever it is that they’ve got a problem with. But it just doesn’t work like that, does it?

[Speaker 2] (57:30 – 58:29)
No, it doesn’t. And you’ve got to be willing within yourself. But as long as you do realise that some of the work does have to come from you, but it doesn’t mean that it all comes from you either.

That it’s basically you’re going through this journey together with your therapist. You’re not doing it completely on your own, but you’re not. But then neither is the therapist.

They’re not telling you this magical cure. It’s not like when you go to the GP and you say, I’ve got a throat infection, they go, here’s some medication to get rid of it. It doesn’t work like that because you’ve got to think the brain is a very complicated thing.

It’s extremely complicated. And so, especially when you add the complexities of mental health issues and autism as well. So you’ve got to find a way together that you can get to the root cause and it may be find a way out of it, but still within your own time, don’t think, this is a six week course.

When we do this, that’s enough. That’s it.

[Speaker 1] (58:30 – 58:45)
Now, it’s definitely an ongoing thing. And obviously you need to be given the option. If you feel you can’t carry on with the therapy, you need to say it.

You’re not getting anything out of it. And you feel you’ve definitely given it a good go, I would say. You know, then you just think, right.

I’m really sorry.

[Speaker 2] (58:46 – 58:58)
Definitely. I’ve been offered things or given things that have not worked. I’ve always been there.

But I’ve been there. But to be honest, when I did get the right help, that’s when it really worked.

[Speaker 1] (58:59 – 1:00:14)
And the right trust as well. Yeah. I’m pleased to hear that.

Well, I just want to say it’s been a pleasure talking to you. I’ve learned a lot from talking to you. And obviously your first podcast, you’ve done absolutely brilliantly.

I was your mum sitting next to you. I’d be very, very proud. People, if you picked up a few things, then you just think, oh, we should have wrote that down.

Please check out the charity website because Ashley’s article will be on there with some of the links that she mentioned and maybe a couple of the books as well. So that’s on www.annaKennedyOnline.com. If you want to follow me on social media, it’s at AnnaKennedyOne on Twitter, AnnaKennedyOnline on Facebook, at AnnaKennedy OBE on Instagram.

And I’ve even started TikTok. I didn’t want to, but a lot of my young patrons and young champions are saying, Anna, you need to be on TikTok. So I’ve only just started.

I’m learning to see what’s going on. Yeah. So it’s about sharing information.

It’s about, you know, it’s about just, you know, keep going one day at a time. So thank you again, and thank you to your mum, and thank you to everyone listening in and keep doing what you’re doing. Okay, then.

Bye-bye now. Bye.