Eat Love Do – John Kenny, 6 Things You Need To Know To Attract Healthy & Loving Relationships

Hello and welcome to the Eat Love Do Show on Women's Radio Station. I'm Janine Newbury and I have a fab guest for you today. I've got the wonderful John Kenny. He's a relationship coach, he's known as the Relationship Guy, and he even has a podcast by that name, which is brilliant by the way. Go over and give it a listen. Um, and he helps people create and attract healthy, loving relationships. Uh, so you are listening on Women's Radio Station. Do head over to our social medias and give us a little like, We are at Women's Radio STN and our YouTube channel. Hit that subscribe button and like because it really does help us. Thank you so much. So without further ado, let's get started. John, welcome to the show. Thank you very much, Janine. Pleasure to be here. Oh, absolute pleasure to have you on. Now, you're a relationship coach. I'm quite excited to know what these 6 things that you need to know in order to have a healthy and loving relationship. And I think everyone will probably be on the edge of their seats listening to this one, is know what these 6 things are. So do you want to talk us through them? This came about sort of a program that I wrote about how to create the, the relationship that you want. So it's more about attracting the person towards you that you want to bring into your life. Um, after the first lockdown, I had a lot of people coming towards me saying, I've been on my own for 3 months, I don't understand why I've never been able to find the right type of person. Yeah, that got me to thinking, okay, I need to maybe break this down into steps which will help people to understand why that might be the case. And from my experience of being a therapist before being a coach, um, I thought that these 6 things were the key things to understand. And they— what they do is they help you to understand what your past has been, your past experiences, everything that you've done so far, and how that might be impacted on your inability to bring the right person towards you. And if you're in a relationship already, it might help you to understand some of the issues that you're having in the relationship that you're currently in. I like that you do that because I think sometimes people don't always relate stuff that's going on with them in the present moment and what they're attracting in that it has so much to do with their past and past behaviors and experiences are driving that. So I love that you're starting with that. So yeah, carry on. So the first thing in the course, the first thing I look at is the attraction style. So we have a tendency to develop, uh, a style of attraction towards certain types of people, and they're attracted to certain parts inside of us. And all of this goes on at a subconscious level. So you might find someone attractive, but this isn't about whether they're good looking or not, or whether they've got nice clothes or whatever. It's, it's actually the underlying attraction that you've got to their energy, um, and why you find certain people kind of— you might have those type of tummy churning type moments Um, or, or not. Um, so your attraction style— I'll give you an example. So my attraction style was I always wanted to be with people that had problems, that you could fix them and help them. Yes, but it was more to do with my own internal stuff than it was that— it was that, that I wanted to prove myself. Yeah, so I wanted to help them to feel better. So as a kid, I learned that my parents weren't particularly happy, so I would do whatever I could to try and lighten the mood and make them happy so I could get some positive attention from them. Um, but I constantly failed in that department because no matter what I did, obviously I couldn't make my parents happy. Um, but I continued to try and do that in relationships as I went through my life. So everybody that I seemed to have a, a longish-term type connection with had issues. Eventually I would always end up in that space where I was never good enough for them. Mm-hmm. Um, so yes, I would be a fixer, as I said, I would try and make them happy and I would try and help them to sort their issues out, but ultimately I couldn't do that. And so therefore I would end up feeling rubbish about myself that I'd failed. And that was kind of became my attraction style. So I was attracted to people with issues. For that reason. I think a lot of people do that. I used to do that. That's one of— definitely one of my behavioral patterns, wanted to help everyone, help everyone be happy, and definitely put all their needs before mine. And just, it just creates this perpetual circle of, yeah, kind of like a codependent, kind of quite toxic, just giving and never feeling that you're getting yourself, which is, I think— I think I would build up certain resentments in myself because I wasn't ever getting my needs met, my healthy needs. So the love and affection and everything, you know, attention on me. I wasn't ever getting any of that because my focus was entirely on them. And that worked for a certain amount of time until I realized that I was quite unhappy and it was never about me and it was always about them. But in saying that, it was, it was about me because I was trying to get my need met to fix their issues. Yeah. Um, so, um, that's why I would attract— so I would meet people and I'd find myself instantly attracted to them. So again, this kind of tummy-churning moments, wanting to jump on them straight away type behaviors, sort of just overwhelmed with this connection that I thought that we had. But it was, it turned out to be on this unhealthy scale. Do you think that's an indication that it's not necessarily a healthy relationship then, if it's that kind of overwhelming and like instant attraction kind of initially that it's— that's possibly not a healthy connection. Yeah, I wrote a blog a while ago called 'When Your Gut Instinct Misleads You,' and it is that— in this case, it's very much that, that your gut instinct, your subconscious, is dropping hormones like crazy into your system because it's telling you that this person is the person for you. Because your subconscious has picked up on the fact, even though you're not aware of it, your subconscious has picked up that this is going to be the same type of person that you've always been with, uh, and it drops these loads of hormones. You get the butterflies, you get this kind of sweating, you might get all the kind of symptoms of sort of, uh, excitement of stuff that you do get, um, but it's coming from a known attraction space rather than a healthy attraction space. It's interesting, isn't it? You can kind of like, when you explain it like that, you kind of understand why you would think it is so powerful because those emotions and feelings feel so intense. And well, it must be the person because I wouldn't be feeling this way if it wasn't. So yeah, it's almost like an addiction really, isn't it, to that, those feelings? And yeah, I like it. I call it compulsion. Compulsion. Yeah, compulsion. So it's like an urge inside of you to just kind of be with that person. But I like to call it a compulsion, and it's a compulsive type behavior. Yeah, I like that word, compulsion. Yeah, you can't really overcome in that moment until you come to notice actually, is this healthy or is this unhealthy? Is this person someone that is triggering me because I find them, because they're great and amazing and they're not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna put myself into that horrible situation I normally put myself in, or is this person triggering me because my brain's saying, oh, this is something you recognize, let's go for it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I think I've heard someone saying once that if it's something that's quite different to what you're used to, you can feel like there's something missing. Because all those emotions that you would get with someone who's not right for you are missing. So it's— so something is missing, all the bad stuff that you should be avoiding. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting because I thought I'd done all my work on this kind of stuff, uh, and I got married, um, and realized that it was different. Yeah, but I'd gone so far the other way that I'd chosen someone with issues in a different space. So I What I'm going to talk about next is, is attachment style, right? Um, and attachment style— I, I thought I'd sorted out my issues. That when I actually met my ex-wife, I thought, oh, this feels different, I don't have all of these urges. And a couple of weeks into the kind of dating, I thought, oh, is this right for me? I'm not really sure if I'm feeling the attraction. And I thought, no, this is a good thing because usually you would do this and now you need to do that. But I've gone so far the other way that I chose an avoidant type person. And so the closer I tried to get to them, the further they would move away from me. Um, whereas with the other types of people, the closer I tried to get to them, the more I tried to help, the closer they would come to me because they needed me to be there in that space with them, because I was meeting all of the— fulfilling all of the needs that they were looking for in their unhealthy space. Um, so yeah, as you mentioned, codependency— most of my relationships were very codependent before. Um, we were meeting each other's needs in a very unhealthy way. Whereas when I got married, we were, I was, we were meeting, we weren't meeting anything. We were meeting our needs by being apart. So I'm what I call an avoidant in, in, uh, in remission or no, what's the word? In recovery. I'm an avoidant in recovery. Um, so my avoidant style is something I've always carried, which means I find it difficult to connect to people at deeper levels. Um, and when I changed that and I wanted to be in a deeper meaningful relationship, I chose someone who was more avoidant than I was. And just kept pushing them away because the more I wanted to be close to them, the less they were able to manage that. So, um, attachment style is the second bit, and that comes into two categories, which is secure and insecure. Yeah, and this is a theory that was first proposed in the 1950s by a psychoanalyst, I think he was John Bowlby, um, and he said that we learn how to attach to our primary caregivers in very early childhood. And there are studies that show that the way that your brain forms in the first 2 years of your life— I mean, the amount of neurons that we build in the first 2 years is like exponential. So the first 2 years of attachment, the first 2 years of how you learn to attach to your primary caregivers, is hugely significant. And if you've had a relationship with them that isn't particularly healthy, such as maybe there's some abuse or neglect, or even maybe you just didn't get your love needs met, um, you didn't feel cared for, you didn't feel safe, you didn't feel secure, then you can develop what's called an insecure attachment. Um, and an insecure attachment falls into 3 different categories. So there's the avoidant style, which I've already mentioned. So there are 2 types of avoidant called fearful and dismissive. I was a fearful type, which is meaning I was desperate to be in a relationship, I really wanted to be loved, but when it came to being loved I couldn't cope. I didn't know how to be in that space where a relationship was healthy. So as soon as it got to a level of connection that my brain was uncomfortable with, I'd start to avoid and I'd shut down and back off. That's usually the people that do the love bombing and things and bits like that, because they're full on at the start and then they don't know how to manage when it gets to a certain point. Is that because, is that because the feelings are overwhelming them, like it's too much for them? The closer you get to someone, the more your triggers are going to go back into the childhood stuff that you haven't resolved. Yeah. So if you've got, tried to get close, there's only so many times you can put your arms up and ask for love and affection from your, from your parents before you give up if it doesn't come. Yeah. So there's a fear there that if you get too close to this person, you're going to experience the same types of things you did as a child where you were rejected or abandoned or shut down or just felt the pain of loss of not being loved. And so your brain says, we can't, we're not doing this. We're, we're removing ourselves from this situation psychologically. Emotionally, um, and we're not gonna keep going in this space. Because that sounds like— when you explain it like that, it's really obvious and really logical, but when it's happening for people, they're not aware that it's happening, are they? Because it's so subconscious. So they just keep, yeah, perpetuating the same thing. Yeah, just keep going. And that has a tendency then to attract the same types of people towards them, and they're usually what are called anxious attachments. Just tell you what dismissive avoidant is first. They're the people that just don't do relationships at all. They're so fearful of deeper meaningful connections that they just a lot of surface relationships. So there are lots of friends with benefits, a lot of friends that they keep at arm's length that they don't see very often, maybe don't spend a huge amount of time with their families and stuff because being closer to people is something their brain just won't even want to go near. And so they just keep everything at arm's length. So an anxious type person is the opposite, really. Um, they learn as a child to kick off, scream, be a bit clingy, be a bit needy, and really wanted their needs met. And rather than avoiding their needs and saying, this is not just not going to happen, I'm shutting down, they move towards the pain, they move towards the people that were trying— that they weren't getting their needs met from, and we're screaming out for it. Um, so as adults, what happens is that you are quite guarded generally to start with you'll meet an especially a fearful avoidant type person who gives you all of the core conditions for you to feel loved and cared for, and then they back off. And then so you become then anxious, and then you start chasing the love that you would have done as a child. So you can become a bit needy again, a bit clingy, um, have a tendency to sort of be a drama in your life's kind of stuff too. So you might know these kinds of people that have always seemed to have chaotic types relationships. They're probably either an anxious person or the next style, which is called a disorganized person. And that's called an anxious avoidant, uh, or disorganized. And they have the traits of both. And that generally comes from severe kind of childhood trauma. So they've maybe witnessed abuse. So the person that they looked for to provide the safety and their security as a child was the one that caused the pain. So they either saw them abusing their, uh, their parent their siblings, themselves, um, were neglected. So therefore, when they start to engage in a relationship and they start to have feelings for somebody, their brain goes into turmoil because they're like, okay, this person that I love could cause me harm. And so they become very disorganized in their emotional and mental state. So, and that's why that's called a disorganized type. You could understand why that would trigger such fear as well, wouldn't it? Like, it's like inherent, like, absolute terror, really. Yeah, definitely. Because they've— it was as a kid, they would have been so insecure, so unsafe, so frightened, so, so pained that they just don't know what to— they become very overwhelmed with all those different and difficult emotions. Yeah. Would that kind of person, would you see them like throwing themselves into their work and things like that instead? Would that be like a— yeah, you'd probably get that with a dismissive avoidant type more. But, uh, a disorganized person, again, they're looking for safety and security. They want to be loved in general. They have a very low self-worth and self-esteem though, so a lot of the stuff that they did, they struggle with. Um, most people with an insecure style have some kind of insecurities about themselves, but they're very insecure in themselves, low self-worth, like I said, low self-confidence. So you might notice that, um, they kind of retreat quite quickly from things. They don't believe in themselves a lot. They might use other, um, substances Uh, they might have eating disorders, they could have some kind of personality disorder because the trauma is so severe that it's affected their— how their brain function. Wow, it's incredible, isn't it, what we do as human— I just find the human mind and our behaviors, I just find this absolutely fascinating. Yeah, yeah. And we don't— most of the time we have no idea this is going on. Yeah, that's, that's also fascinating as well, isn't it? It's like walking around a bit asleep and not aware of why we're doing the things we're doing, which is why I love having conversations with people like you and learning about this stuff. And because, yeah, I think the more we all learn about it, the more we can cope with it for ourselves and have happier lives, really. Yeah, create the relationships that we actually really want. Yeah, because we just want to be loved, don't we, really? Everyone just— we are, we are a connected species. I mean, we are, we are a huge— what's the word? There's something, something I read the other day, I can't remember what it was called, but we are so connected as a species. We wouldn't have survived as a species without connection. So it is inherent genetically that we have relationships with people and we have good relationships with people. Yeah. And that's why they're so significant and can be so damaging if they don't exist. Yeah, that's— I think when we did— we've just come out of a lockdown and I think that's impacted a lot of people's mental health because we've literally been shut off from each other and we've had that disconnect of that connection socially with loved ones and I think that's impacted a lot of people in quite a deep way, in ways that they might not even, they might not even realize yet. And yeah, it's quite powerful. It really is. Definitely. So what's, what's number 3? So relationship beliefs. Beliefs, right? Yeah. So we develop beliefs about relationships so that we could, uh, for instance, believe that relationships are unreliable, that they're unhealthy, that they don't last, that causes pain. In a negative way. Obviously, there's the opposite. The relationships can be fantastic and we can get our needs met and everything's jolly and happy. Um, but your belief is hugely powerful. So belief is the only thing that really overrides your survival instinct. So people believe when they kill themselves that there's no other option, that they can't resolve their issues. And for that to be able to override your need to survive shows how powerful a belief can be. Um, to us, they're our truths, and so therefore we need to recreate our truths over and over again. Our brain doesn't feel comfortable if we're not in the familiar, so it likes the familiar, and it tries to get us into the familiar all the time. So if my belief is that relationships are A, B, and C, then my brain will be looking to make that my reality. So if I might meet someone and that doesn't exist, then I'll even maybe walk away from the relationship, or I'll try and create problems within that relationship that will fulfill my belief systems. Yeah. Um, or I'll just generally choose people that I know subconsciously that, um, it's going to be the same type of thing that I believe to be true. And so for understanding what our relationship beliefs are, we can then start to go, are they healthy or are they unhealthy? Um, and do I now need to create some new beliefs around relationships and dispel the old ones in order for me to be able to find the right type of person? Yeah, belief's huge. Belief, I mean, it's not even just in relationships, it's in our entire life. It rules everything, doesn't it? And I think, yeah, like, I, I've seen like people playing stuff about like sabotage, sabotaging things, and it's all because their belief is this person will leave me eventually, or XYZ. So they like just doing it and pushing people away and going, see, I knew, I knew they were going to leave me, I knew it. See, it's like the people that test relationships all the time because they're chasing, they're chasing an outcome. They don't— they want— they believe that this person is going to, like you said, is going to leave them, they're going to do something. And so therefore they go, like you said, they do it and then they go, yeah, see, I told you that would happen. I knew that was going to happen. But you're the one that's actually created it by the way that you behave. I'm not saying you do that all the time because you could also be choosing people that fit the mold already. Yeah. So, you know, if you're used to being cheated on and you think everyone's going to cheat on you because you're not worthy or unlovable, whatever it might be, or that all relationships end in pain and you're, you know, no one ever, but you're always facing rejection, that type of thing. You're going to choose somebody that always rejects, will end up rejecting you, and then you're going to say, see, this is my belief, this is what's real about relationships, so therefore I'm going to sustain that idea. Yeah. Um, so becoming aware of what, as you said as well, beliefs are, carry us through life, um, in all sense of, uh, things. So yeah, it's just relationship beliefs are just one set of those that we can carry that can lead us to not being able to choose the right type of people for 100%. So for anyone listening now, what, um, how— and they're thinking, well, how do I know what my beliefs are? What, what advice and tips could you give them so they can kind of get an idea of what that is so they can work on it? Yeah, so all of this kind of stuff falls into kind of self-awareness. Um, so it's about, okay, what kind of relationships have I experienced in, in the past, and what might I be, be able to pick up from that? What What endings do I usually attain from my relationships? How do I usually feel? Is there a pattern in that? We'll come to relational patterns in a minute. Um, but, uh, is there something that I can see that's tangible that might make me believe that relationships are a certain way? What did I learn as a kid? Um, how was I treated as a child? What did I believe about my relationship with my parents? Then the early kind of development relationships that I had., um, that could have led me to believe that there are certain outcomes that relationships mean for me. Um, and then you can start to analyze how the, how healthy they are. And then, as it is just a belief, it's not true. Um, although there are truths, we just need to create some new truths. So we just need to create some new beliefs. So it's about then trying to sort of create new, new neurons in our brain, which then fire off when we are looking for relationships. That say, this is now what I believe a relationship can be, rather than this is what I believe a relationship will be. Um, and then shifting that. So the more you consistent you are in that space of saying something else to yourself and addressing the old stuff, you can then start to unravel those and put some new, uh, beliefs in place that you can choose when you're then looking for your next relationship, or even in the relationship you're in at the moment. Um, because you might be acting out in the relationship at the moment to fulfill your relationship belief. So you might be creating issues at the moment in the relationship that you're in, or the person that you're with might be creating issues and you don't understand why. Yeah. Uh, and again, if you— again, it's about understanding the complexities of the other person as well. So unless you understand all this stuff within yourself, you can then start looking at others and go, oh yeah, I can see why they might be doing that. Uh, and it gives us a huge ability to go, okay, this isn't about me now. Yeah, their stuff. And then you can hopefully, if you've got the right type of level of communication in your relationship, you can sit down and start talking about these kinds of things and put things in place together that will help you to move forward. If you, if you both go and kind of edit your beliefs, then that's just going to enhance your relationship so much better. And well, it'll either go one way or the other, really, won't it? It'll either make it better or you realize you shouldn't actually be together because— yeah, yeah, that is one of the outcomes. Once you've done all this work on yourself, and again, I'll go into that in a little bit more detail with one of the other topics in the, in the, in my program. Um, but yeah, once you've kind of figured this all out, it also goes, okay, is this— now that I know myself a bit better, and now I understand why I've chosen this relationship, is this the right relationship for me? Um, and then trying to bring the other person on side, if that's what you want to do, by being open and discussing these types of things with them to see if there's, any way that they can start to shift more towards a healthy space too, if they've got their own issues. So powerful, isn't it? And beliefs, like, I think once you understand that a belief is just a thought that you've formed, and it's a belief is just a thought you've had over and over again that you now believe to be true. So if you can, if you've created that, you can uncreate it and you can create a new one. Once you realize that, that you've got the power to do that, it kind of takes all the power and stress and emphasis out of the way you've been. And I think it, yeah, I think that empowers you as well, just having that knowledge to know actually I can make a change and it's possible. And there are people like yourself that can help with this process and make things, you know. Yeah, I mean, awareness is, is the, is the first key to change. Yeah, there's a guy called George Haas who's very much, he's a, an attachment specialist, and he says your attachment is improved just by knowing you've got an attachment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The truth will set you free, as they say. Yeah, that realization, oh, I can see why I do that, is then you need to go, okay, and now I want to change it. Yeah. And so we come on to, um, which again, something else I'm going to talk about. Um, so next thing is relational patterns. Again, we all have behavioral patterns in life. We all do things a certain way and repeat certain outcomes, whether they are positive or negative. And we do the same with relationships too. So again, it's looking back in your past relationships and thinking, is there a pattern to this? Do I keep choosing the same types of people? Are they the same outcomes? What are some of the sort of most common relationship patterns? Generally the ones that feed your attraction, attachment, and beliefs. Um, so damn it. So understanding all of these is really important. But, uh, so relational patterns, again, it's the kind of choosing the people that are going to give you the same outcome. So I would never feel good enough. Um, there would be people that you would always end up in chaotic relationships with, maybe abusive relationships with, uh, people that cheat on you a lot, um, people that have— keep secrets. Um, so people that don't let you into their life type thing. You might notice that, uh, you know, if you notice any type of pattern that you formed with the type of people that you attract into your life. Um, it's just being aware of that and just understanding where that's coming from again. And that's generally fed by, uh, early childhood and then the subsequent relationships you may have had at school, early dating type spaces, early intimate relationships. Um, and just go back that far really and just say, okay, is there a pattern to the type of people people that I bring towards me. Um, this is really huge actually, isn't it? Because I don't think anyone would actually go out of the way to try and find someone that would lie to them or be dishonest or abuse them, but yet they will attract that in and be in those relationships and stay in it. And once you kind of understand the reason why is because you've got these beliefs that were set up from childhood, and that's why you keep playing out the patterns, I think that just makes you kind of go, oh, So it's just that I can change that. And, and it, I don't know, it kind of takes that kind of emphasis off. And it also helps you understand other people that might be in those situations as well, because you might have friends or family that are in like relationships that you can see are not good for them. Yeah. If you can understand that's, that's, this will be the driving force and the reason why, maybe help them and get, get the help they need to fix that. Well, not fix it, maybe that's the wrong word, but help them understand themselves so that they can then attract loving, healthy relationships then. So it's just so powerful. It's so, so powerful. It is massively. Yeah, it's a big topic because I think relationships and love is one of the, the things that we all want in the world the most. So I'm absolutely loving this conversation because this is, this is actually huge. I just want to keep emphasizing it, and it's huge and yet so simple to, um, to, to, to help, you know, to get, get the help you need and to make right if we're actually willing to put that work in ourselves and, you know, put that work in to clear that out, those beliefs out, and put new ones in. That can literally change our lives and bring that love into our lives. So most definitely. Again, this is why I do this, because when I, I was a deeply miserable person, I was deeply unhappy. Yeah. Um, and it was only when I realized all of this stuff that my life started to change. That it didn't just change my relationships, but it changed my whole outlook. On life because I was able to step out of my unhappy space by changing how my relationships were impacting on me. And by doing that, that has made the most significant change in my life. And therefore, that's why I'm so passionate about all of this stuff because I know what a huge difference it made. And there's a, there's a Grant, the Grant Bluewick study, which is a year Harvard University study. It's been going for 80 years now, but after 75 years they published the results of what they'd found out so far. And it's a study into happiness, and they, they concretely discovered that the most significant factor to happiness in life is the quality of your relationship. Yeah. So they are the most overriding factor if we want to live our best lives. Yeah. And it's not just your personal relationships, that's your friendships, your family, your relationships, just people, with other humans basically, isn't it, in general, and your relationship with yourself as well, obviously. Which is something we're going to come on to. It's just flowing. So the next thing we need to think about is what we want. Yes. Because we don't generally, when it comes to relationships, we don't actually sit down and go, what kind of person do I want to be with? Yeah, I think people put more thought into a house or apartment they want to buy or a dog that they want rather than they would a relationship. Yes, they do. Oh, you like me? Okay, I'll be with you. Yeah, exactly. And that's generally how it works. So I get my clients to write a want list. Yeah. And one of the things they have a tendency to be able to do really well is write an I don't want list. I think that's just as powerful as well, isn't it? Because people, yeah, forget about that, like the things you don't want. And yeah, yeah, because you can't— if you focus on what you don't want, your brain is always looking for what you don't want. If I go to the park looking to avoid dreading dog poo, what am I looking for? Yeah, yeah, looking for dog poo. So we need to think about what we want rather than what we don't want. Otherwise we will keep looking for the things we don't want. There's a part of your brain called your reticular activating system, or your RAS, and that's your 'I'm going to go and find what you want' part of your brain. It's where you have selective filtering. So the information that goes in your brain that your brain doesn't really want to keep hold of, it throws it back out and it's also done in that part of your brain. That's, that's why if you were looking to buy a car and say you wanted to buy a red Mini, you suddenly start seeing red Minis everywhere because your brain's filtering red Mini. It is. You'll see them all over the place, won't it? Yeah. So that's the same with relationships. If I have a clear idea of the person I want, my brain will look out for those types of things without me even knowing. This person is like this and this person is like that. And then if you're focusing on the don't want, you keep finding the things you don't want. And if you're focusing on things that you do want, then you can start to notice the people that you probably would never have noticed before because you're so maybe stuck in your own space. Just enlightening yourself into, okay, there are people out there that I can have in my life that fulfill these types of things I'm looking for. And then we can go start looking for them. And our brain will do it for us subconsciously if we are, again, consistent enough in the messaging that we're sending to ourselves. Themselves. Do you think there's a danger though sometimes if people make a list of what they're looking for that it can be too rigid and then they might actually, if they put too much on that list, they might bypass someone who's actually amazing because they haven't got XYZ on the list? Yeah, most definitely. How do you deal with that with clients if someone came to you? Yeah, so it's the fundamental things that we're looking for rather than whether we like the same types of music or whether they've got good tasting clothes and things like that. It's, it's, it's moving into what do they want from their lives, what kind of person are they, do we have the shared values and goals and things like that, um, that we look at. So they're fundamental things that will keep a relationship sustained for a longer period of time. Yeah. Um, and I like to say, I like to say if you get 80% of what you want, you're in a good relationship. Yeah, yeah, the 80/20 rule. Yeah, I, I, I'm I talk to a lot of my clients, and one thing I ask them is, when you were a kid, how much— out of a percentage of 100, how many knees did you get there? And they'll say, maybe generally the most I would say is probably 50%. Yeah, because they're struggling in their space. And so I say, so there's still 50% missing. So if someone comes along, gives you 60% of what you're looking for, that's still got 40% missing, but it still feels a lot better because it's more than your 50%. So most people languish in the sort of 10, uh, 20, 30% area. So if I have 20% of my needs met as a kid and someone comes along and gives you 40%, that's going to feel amazing because it's 20%, it's double what I've ever experienced, but there's still 60% missing. And so we end up settling for less than what we can really have. And that's why the, again, the want list is so important. And if you can, if, as long as the 20% isn't a fundamental issue,, then you should be able to— I don't like the word should generally, but you should be able to create a relationship which has longevity and the ability for you to be able to go through things together enough. I love that. It's a really simple way of kind of working it out and seeing that you actually do deserve more. And I guess that links back again to what you were saying about beliefs and how, you know, like not feeling like you're good enough and like you're probably deserving of getting more than that 40%, for example. So you clear out the beliefs and how they think about themselves, so you realize you do deserve more, so you probably attract someone in. It's just all just so powerful, isn't it? Yeah, it's brilliant. And then the next thing is your give list. Oh, give list, or what you're willing to give. Yeah, how much you're willing to give. Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah, because it's not just about what you want. All of these things that we've talked about so far will restrict you in the amount of yourself that you can give to a relationship. Yeah. So one way of overcoming the stuff that we've already talked about is to say, okay, this is how I connected. I want to be somebody. And so therefore I'm willing to be vulnerable. I'm willing to give of myself to a relationship regardless of what the outcomes might be. Even if it doesn't work out because the fear, it's about then overcoming the fear and having the, again, a belief, uh, an ability to say, I will be okay. Even if I give to someone and I fall in love and it's really nice and then it doesn't work out and I feel pain, I will still be okay. So I'm prepared to give this of myself to somebody, and then that helps to overcome those blockers and stuff that we might have, which is my next thing, which is about resistance. Yeah, I like that, the giving thing. Even saying I'm willing to be vulnerable, it's like you're setting that intention. And you, you sort of giving, allowing yourself to be that as well. And I like, I like the way you put that. So even if it doesn't work out, it's okay. It's not that you were vulnerable. That's not why it didn't work out. Yeah. But so it stops you kind of that fear of holding yourself back. Just be that, be, you know, be that anyway. And if it works out, it doesn't, it's okay either way. Yeah. It's nothing to do with you as a person. It's just, you know, you've opened yourself up to the idea of having this relationship. And again, that will change kind of a law of attraction type stuff as well. You know, if I'm saying I want to give to a relationship, you'll then start again— your brain will open up to the idea of the right type of people you can give that to as well. Um, again, if you're guarded, you'll attract people that are wanting to break your guard down. Um, you won't attract a secure person because generally secure people don't entertain that space if they feel that you're too guarded or there's going to be a lot of hard work and getting this relationship off ground, they have a tendency to go another— in another direction. They don't want to put themselves in that insecure space with somebody. Yeah. Um, so therefore, again, if you're willing to give and you are making yourself more secure by doing that, you're more likely again to attract someone that's secure towards you as well. So they're in the sort of same sort of space as you, prepared to be— as, as a secure person, which I didn't mention when I talked about attachment style, secure people have a tendency to go, relationships are great, you know, I'm good in relationships, because I don't have to worry about— there's no fear for me here. I can be connected, I can be close, I can feel secure, I can trust. Um, and that's the kind of person that really we want to be with, because that if we have got our own issues too, and we're working on those, being with someone that can provide that safe space for us to, to work on this stuff in is what we're looking for. But if we remain guarded and stuff, we're not necessarily going to attract those type of people towards us because they're going to avoid us because they don't want the drama or the difficulty in a relationship because they don't see that as something that is healthy. Do you know what? It's interesting you're saying that. I had a date last week with somebody, and on the date he was definitely like anxious, like, and he kept sort of going, do you like— we just been like talking and smiling and everything was like— and he just suddenly burst out and go, do you like me? Um, I'm not sure if you like me. And I just kind of went, what? And it made me just kind of back up. And he sent me a text message the next day and he said something like, "I had a really nice day, absolutely love it, love to see you again." And he should have just stopped there, and then he responded, he followed it up with, "But I totally understand if you don't want to see me again." And that instantly made me just go, you're not the person for me, this is too much, you've got some healing to do, and I don't want to be involved with this. Yeah, too needy. It made me feel suffocated. It might kind of make me go, I need someone who's secure in who they are. So it's interesting when you were saying that, it's like, I don't I want to be with someone that I feel I have to coach and help. And, you know, I'll do that with clients, but I don't want to do that with someone I'm in a relationship with. Yeah, I don't want that dynamic. So it's interesting you're saying that. I kind of go, oh, and I was, I was in the space he was in a few years back. So to be in the other space now, I'm like, oh, and it also made me understand how those other people must have felt when I was in it and I was trying to be with them and they were pushing me away. So it is interesting to see from both perspectives. It's like So I totally understand that. Yeah, yeah, down. And maybe before you'd have gone, oh yeah, I like you, do you like me as well? Yeah. And I'll be like, oh, I can fix him, I can heal him, I'll help you, I've got all the tools. And I'm like, nope, you're a lovely person, but just not for me. No, definitely there's a lot of work to be done there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, um, um, yes, so we have resistance to change. Now this is the next point. Um, all this stuff is great, but your brain, as I said earlier, likes familiar. So if you find you're hitting some stumbling blocks— and as I had a client a little while ago and we finished our sessions, and then about 3 months later she was in tears. She said, can I book in another session? I need to— this is all going wrong, blah blah blah. Yeah, um, came to see me and I said, no, this is a a good thing. She was like, no, this is not a good thing. Everything we've talked about, I'm failing. I said, no, this is just resistant. You're now dating this person, you've been seeing them for a couple of months, you're starting to trigger all of the things that we talked about, and your brain is just fighting back because you're trying to fight against what you've always done. Yeah. So you just need to go with it now. This is just— notice that this is just your brain trying to keep you safe. It's trying to sort of keep you in the familiar all the stuff that we've worked on, just go and put that into practice and you're going to be okay. Yeah. Um, and she did, and she ended up having a, a very healthy relationship with this person because she was able to stop herself from resisting all of the things that she'd worked on that her brain was in the past was uncomfortable with. Um, and wanted to return her back to the space that she'd always been in. And, and couldn't connect to someone on a healthy level. That's brilliant. It's so powerful, isn't it? So powerful. And I think if someone's going through that, they might instantly sort of, oh, it's the other person that's doing it. It's that it's them. They're not right for me, or they're to blame. Like, this will put that blame thing on because blame feels better than guilt or taking responsibility ourselves and looking at ourselves, or, or that, oh, this is just too much for me, and like push away in fear. So it's really nice that you, you know, pulled her back to that and got her to work on that because we all do it. It triggers all of us, relationships. Even me with a guy with a date last week, it like triggered me to go, nope, I just, you know, that, you know, I don't want— oh, I don't want that energy in my life. You get triggered either way, so it's like constantly. And I think that's something else that people sort of take on, that when you start healing and working on beliefs, it's not like just a one quick fix and you're going to be perfect from now on and never get triggered or feel stuff again. You will. I think the key is that you'll notice it and you'll be aware. Like, you talk about awareness, and you'll be able to have the tools to deal with it quicker and not let it impact you. Which is why I love, I love the work that you're doing with people, because this is, this is what I think changes the world, gets everyone back to a space of love. So yeah, it's brilliant. Definitely. What's next? I'm loving this conversation, John. It's brilliant. Um, so there is, there is more than 6. There is number 7. And this is a surprise one because this is kind of underlines and underpins all of the other stuff, and that's your relationship with yourself. Yeah, because if you have an unhealthy relationship yourself, you're likely to have unhealthy relationships with other people because wherever you come from, from your personal space, is likely to project into the people that you have around you. Um, so if you do feel unworthy or undeserving or unlovable, or all those horrible things that we can create for ourselves as we grow up, um, you're likely again to not be able to change the other stuff because you'll work through it and then your resistance will kick in and then you'll go, nah, I'm still not worthy, I'm still undeserving, I'm just going to go back to the space I was always in before. So by being able to create that healthier relationship with you and understand how you see yourself. I remember when I was, I put this in my book, actually, I think, when I was away, I was in Spain, I think on a lands holiday. And I won a raffle and there was like 300 people in this room. And I got up on stage and the guy said, what's your name? And I said, oh, John. And I felt so embarrassed. And I thought, It's because I was up on stage in front of 300 people or so, and I was a little bit drunk. Well, it was a lads' holiday after all. But it was actually because I didn't like myself. Just saying my name out loud made me feel really uncomfortable. Wow. And I just felt so naked at that point that everyone was looking at me. Yeah. And I don't like me, so therefore they don't like me. I don't deserve this prize. And all these really weird things were going through. And because I was a bit drunk, I couldn't control it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, there's part of our— there's something in alcohol which numbs your prefrontal cortex, which is your kind of conscious part of your brain. And that's why we have a tendency to go into, um, more emotional states, more freeing states, um, because, um, Alcohol stops us from using the conscious part of our brain where we keep all of our morals and all that kind of stuff. And what holds us back in, in doing certain things. And because I was a bit drunk as well, and I'm standing and I felt very exposed in that space. I just became completely overwhelmed. And I thought, but that's again, like I said, at the time, I thought, it's just because I'm standing on stage, but actually it was all of that negative self-talk, negative self-doubt, and all that kind of real issues I had with myself that just came flooding to the surface in that, in that split second. And only by now doing the work, that's why I'm able to stand up on stage now and give talks, is because I'm able to go, I have a really good relationship with myself. And I feel confident standing up there and I don't have any concerns about being in front of people anymore. Do you think that's why public speaking, they say, is one of the biggest fears that people have, isn't it? So do you think it all goes back to a belief about not feeling enough and not loving yourself? I think a lot of it, yeah, because again, it's a very exposing space, isn't it? You're putting yourself out there to be seen, to be judged, to be criticized, to be caught out. You know, you are the center of attention at that very much point. And if you, and if you struggle with how you see yourself, um, then you will struggle to stand up in front of other people. I think like a similar thing, it can even come out like some people don't even like having their picture taken, even if they're at, I don't know, a birthday party or whatever, like, oh no, I don't like to be in pictures. And that's— it's the same thing, isn't it? Then they're not feeling like they're enough, they don't want to be seen in that picture. So if you're one of those people that don't want pictures taken, then maybe you should give John a call and do some sessions with him. So because it's true, it's on everything, right? It's not just relationships. Yeah, I love that I think the relationship yourself is the most powerful thing. Most definitely. It will dictate everything you do, like whether it's relationships, whether it's career, whether it's whatever. You know, I was, I was an international athlete. I used to run for Great Britain back in my late teens and my early 20s. And if I had a healthier relationship with myself, I'd have been a much better athlete because I self-sabotaged my success at every turn because I didn't believe. And we come back to beliefs, my core belief You know, then we have a core belief generally, or maybe one or two core beliefs about ourselves. And one of my core beliefs was I was never going to amount to anything. So I carried that into my athletics career. So when I was doing really well in athletics, my brain was going to go, yeah, but you're never going to amount to anything. Why are you doing so well? We need to self-sabotage. And so therefore I would do something. I'd go clubbing, date, uh, get an injury even. You know, subconscious manifestations of injuries, everything. I take my mind off the board, I distract myself in some way. I remember sometimes, I remember once I ran for Great Britain, my first senior vest, and I was down in the block singing a song to myself because my brain was so not capable of being in a focused, sort of concentrated space and really doing the best for myself. That it would do anything to distract me from doing well. And so therefore I got down on my blocks in front of, I think we're in Finland, and there was a sort of about 40,000 people in the stadium. And I was like, yeah, this is great. And then my brain was like, no, it's not, sing a song. And I was like, no. I got a terrible start and yeah, ran a bad race. So that's the kind of thing that can happen in other areas of your life if you've if you don't have that, um, if you don't look at your core beliefs, again, the relationship beliefs, but your core beliefs that lead to all your limiting beliefs as well. So what are core beliefs for people that don't understand what beliefs are? So they're the fundamental things that we believe about ourselves. So we might have one or two, uh, generally that we've learned again as kids most of the time that this is built up in childhood. And because the first 7 years generally you're in survival mode, as I said earlier on, you're— you're— the amount of neurons that you build in the first few years of your life is like exponential. A lot of this stuff that we learn in childhood becomes very concreted in our subconscious, um, and so therefore, uh, we carry that forward into our life. So I developed my core beliefs as a kid that I was never going to amount to anything, also that I was very unlovable, um, and undeserving. So then that leads out into what are called limiting beliefs. So there are hundreds of limiting beliefs. Of course there are. Brilliant. Um, generally if you pick out the limiting— but there's an exercise that you can do, which is pick out the limiting beliefs that on a limiting belief list, and then you can ask yourself some questions to try and get back to your core belief. Um, and it's a, it's quite a powerful thing. If you can understand what your core beliefs are, then you can go, okay, I don't believe that anymore. That's not true. Yeah. Um, and you can start again, as you said earlier on, about creating a new belief system, but dismissing the old ones is really important first. Um, again, if I do, uh, affirmations and things with people, they're really important to create new ideas about ourselves. But if you haven't got rid of the old ones and you don't give your brain a reason why you feel this new way, you believe this new way, then your brain will go, yeah, but that's not true. Yeah. So you have to give it evidence because you've got plenty of evidence for the old beliefs and your brain will go, yeah, we've got loads of evidence here that shows me that you are this. I've got no evidence of this. You need to give me some evidence. So if I say, um, I'm deserving of a healthy relationship, I've never felt that way before because of the experiences I had as a child. But again, that's just developed a set of beliefs that aren't true. 'Actually, I'm very deserving of this relationship because I'm a nice person. I can give a lot to a relationship. Um, I, uh, I'm not at fault for the things that have gone on in the past. Um, I'm worthy,' and things like that. And then our brain goes, 'Oh, okay, yeah, I can kind of see that because you're giving me tangible reasons why, um, I can take this on board.' Yeah. If I just say, 'I'm worthy of a relationship,' my brain will go, Why? Why are you worthy of relationship? I've got all this evidence here that tells me that you're not. Yeah. Um, and so therefore affirmations become very difficult to take place because as soon as you think it, your brain goes, nah, that's not true. And so it dismisses it immediately and then it doesn't, you don't consistently start to build these neurons in your brain, which then become your new way of thinking. I think that's why affirmations sometimes get a bad rap, don't they? Because people go, oh, they don't work. They do work, but however, they don't work if you don't clear out the beliefs that are stopping them working. And you don't put too much pressure on yourself either. There's a lot of people, again, you struggle with affirmations because they believe that they should get this right the first time. Yeah, and that's an interesting belief, but it's like a societal belief, isn't it? Like everyone seems to— oh, I can't do it the first time, so I'm never going to do it again. Yeah, this isn't working, but I've only been doing it for a week. Yeah, and you think, where does that come from? Because when we're kids, we didn't have that. Like, we wouldn't be able to walk if we had that, would we? Because you fall down, you get up, you fall down, you wouldn't be able to fasten your shoelaces if you had that. Because how many times did we, you know, have to learn how to fasten our shoelaces? Yeah. Somewhere along the line as adults, there's a sort of collective belief that, oh, if I can't do it once, then it's too difficult, I can't do it, and to stop. It's absolutely fascinating. Yeah. And that's all to do with your belief systems. Yeah. Because again, you're denying yourself the ability to do something new because you don't believe you can. Yeah. And that's the resistance stuff as well. If you're doing something good for yourself and then your brain says you need to stop doing that because this is going to be really good, then it will stop you. It will try and stop you. It's interesting. It's just so powerful. So if there's anything that you want to do in your life and you're not doing it, it could be stuff like even just like losing weight, getting into shape, like not just relationship stuff, just looking for a new career, anything like anything that you're not doing, you know, if you— I guess if you're procrastinating a lot, it's just a belief system just trying to deflect you and getting you to avoid going for the thing that you really want. So just so powerful. I love this topic. I love it. Yeah. So tell me about your book. You said— yeah, I heard you— oh yeah, so I've got a casually drop that you've got a book. Um, it says it's called The People Program: How to Overcome Your Blocks Success. And this is the book when I was actually— this has probably been the biggest self-development thing I've ever done because that made me realize that I'd married an avoidant type person as well while I was writing my book, which kind of brought a lot of the issues in the relationship I was having at the time to, to mind. I thought, I can see why this is not working. How did you realize that? How did you get to that point? So the first half of the book is my life story in a nutshell. So, um, it's about self-sabotaging, really. It's about overcoming your own blocks to success. So I talk about myself throughout the book. This is what happened to me. This is how I thought. These are the experiences I had, which led me to believe certain things, which then led me to self-sabotage. And then the second half of the book is 6, the People Program, it's called. So the E, the E, the O, the P, the N, the E stand for different sections of the, of a coaching program. And you can work through those areas after you've read my story. So hopefully you can relate some stuff back to it and go, oh yeah, it's like a massive case study. Yeah. Um, and then you can go, okay, and then you can work through these sections of the book and go and maybe understand how, why you're holding yourself back in certain areas of your life. Um, and so, yeah, it's, um, and because I was working through that in the book, I just thought, oh, I can see what's going on here. I'm trying to be closer to a person who's actually more avoidant than I am. Wow. Therefore, every time I try and move closer, I can see how she's now backing away every time I try and connect. So it was at that point I thought, okay, I need to decide whether this is going to be healthy moving forwards and whether this is actually ever going to work. Um, and unfortunately it was just never going to work. And I think that's okay as well, isn't it? Because I think sometimes people get that fear, well, if I change and realize stuff, then I'm going to lose this relationship. And then they get that fear about being on their own, and then I have to be with this person. And also, we're sort of societally conditioned that if you're in a relationship, it has to work, and that has to be the one person forever. And if it ends, that you've somehow failed, or there's something wrong with you or something. And then people are like, why did it fail? What did you do wrong? Or, you know, it's that kind of fear of ending a relationship as well, like another failed relationship. So I think sometimes people stay in it because they're scared of that as well. Most definitely. There are, there are, again, it's a belief, it's all the belief stuff. It's I believe this about if the relationship doesn't work, it must be my fault, or I failed. Again, I just say to my clients, so relationships don't fail, washing machines fail. I love that. And they do these days. That's more than a year. But relationships are so complicated that they're not always going to work out. Yeah. And it's only when— actually, are they? Some of them, some of them are meant just to shine a light, I think, that we can— on us and our things, so we can learn, and so the person we're with can learn as well. Yeah, sometimes, and that's what they were meant for, and that's an amazing thing if it helps us grow as a human and the other person as well. I think that's— it's a good thing, not a negative thing. I was definitely— because that opened my eyes to the fact that actually I thought I'd gone into a healthy space because I was no longer attracting anxious attachment type people. Towards me with problems that they had. But actually, I'd gone into someone so far the other way that was massively avoidant. And that opened my eyes. Okay, yeah, I can see where I've gone with that. I've just thought it was good because it was different. But actually, it was so different. Because it was, again, it was wrong. But on the other end of the scale, I said a few, it kind of dawned on me actually, that I'd spent my whole life dating my my dad and married my mom. Yeah, that looks like what, Oedipus? I forget which the other one is. Oedipus, Electra, Electra, is it Electra complex? Yeah, yeah. So my mom's massively avoidant, my dad was massively anxious. So it's interesting that as I improve my relationship with my dad, my relationships with women change. Ah, interesting. But rather than working on the stuff that I needed to work on also with my mum, I just thought, oh, this is healthy. This is— and I hadn't, hadn't realized what I'd done. So, but yeah, it's amazing once you recognize, ah, it's in my, my coach actually. When I got divorced, my coach said to me the first thing, and I was looking for sort of some sympathy and understanding, right? And they said, what was your role in why this relationship didn't work? Yeah, I completely took me out of that sympathy, blaming, responsibility for them space and went, yeah, what did I do? Yeah. And all right, okay. And I chose, I chose someone with an avoidant personality that I wasn't going to be able to be close to. Yeah. And during the relationship, I was unable to create the conditions for them to feel safe enough to come across. Whether I, whether they would have done anyway, I have no idea, but You know, it was interesting that my coach said that. The first thing they said, so what was your role in why this relationship didn't work? Oh, that's a very good question. And we sat and had a whole session about how I played a role. Yeah, it's really powerful, that question, isn't it? Because I think often in relationships it's easier to want to blame the other person because then it's not our fault and we're safer somehow doing that. I think people like blame. Oh, they did this, they did that to me. And that's another like unhealthy loop to get caught up in. So to actually shine on you, what did I do? Oh, and then it— then that empowers you as well. I think you taking that responsibility, oh, I did this. If I did it, I can undo it and I can do something different. If it's constantly the other person, the powers with the other person, then you've got no control over that. It'll just keep happening to you over and over again. Yeah, I think if you— to be brave enough to actually look at yourself and go, actually, I did this. Yeah. And that's the thing about, again, that relationship with yourself. I was in a secure enough space within that relationship with me to say, what did you do that, that you could have done better, that you could have done differently? Again, if I've got a difficult relationship myself, I'm not going to want to look at those things most of the time, because then that just concretes maybe the idea of the negative things I carry about myself anyway. What would you do if you, like, you were working with someone and they said, what did you do? And they went, nothing. 'it was all them.' How would you— how would you handle that? What would you do? I would probably then go, okay, so if in my relationship— when my relationship broke down, yeah, I needed to understand my role in that. And even if I went through that and realized I haven't actually done anything wrong, um, I would find that very hard to believe that I hadn't had an impact on why this relationship didn't work. Yeah. Um, so I you know, it's just about curiously and gently trying to challenge that thought set. But again, again, if they're that stuck in their space of I couldn't have done anything wrong, again, that shows me that they're afraid to look in the mirror because they— that will confirm some of the things that they already believe about themselves that they're going to have to admit to themselves. I go, actually, you know what, I didn't really do that very well, but they can't own that because then they own that negative stuff about themselves. Um, and if they can't see themselves or won't see themselves in a negative light, it's going to be really difficult for them to do that. You know, there is something that we do, even if it's really small. Um, I mean, it could be completely that you've just, um, been in a relationship with a narcissist and, and they've just got so many problems that, you know, it was never going to work, and thank goodness you're out of it. But you chose to be with a narcissist in the first place. For what reason? Understanding your attraction style, your attachment style, your beliefs, and everything like that will go, okay, I can see why now I ended up in that very toxic and unhealthy space. Yeah, I think every experience we have relationship-wise has goals and, and value, I think, as well. So that's something— well, they say that you have a relationship for, uh, a reason, a season, or forever. Something like that. Yeah, reason, season, or lifetime. Yeah. John, I've got— we're running out of time, so I've got to say thank you. That was brilliant. I've absolutely loved having you on. I'm sure our listeners have absolutely loved listening to what you got to say. Um, I will pop all John's social media info on our social media, so go check him out. What's your website, John? Just, uh, www.johnkennecoaching.com. Until next time, 9 AM and 9 PM every day all week, I've been Janine Newbury. This is the Eat Love Do Show on Women's Radio Station. See you next time.