Endeavour

Welcome back to open with me, Patsy and me, Angie. So Angie, last time you were, you'd started talking about being scouted as a model. That's right Patsy. And I think it happened that you were walking down South Moulton street one day and you were scouted, you were scouted and the next minute you were walking for a very well known fashion label in Milan. So let's pick up there. I mean what was that like just to go from. It was such a whirlwind, Patsy, because my life had been so in the twilight zone. And all of a sudden it was like I was being feted and admired for being who I was. Walking down a catwalk and getting paid for it. And it was so. It was that chalk and cheese for me. But then also I saw. Cause I was still very young, I was only 21. Yeah, I mean I was a young child. But that sounds like a dream that you went from just walking down a street and the next minute you're on a catwalk in Milan living the high life. That sounds just. Yeah, but that's how it was in those days. Don't forget we didn't have Internet, we didn't even, I mean I think Polaroids were just coming out. I mean back in the day it was like the rolly camera and you have to send it off to be developed. I mean if somebody, you know, a photographer saw you and they said would you like to come into my studio and I'd like to take some pictures of you. That's how it was. It wasn't. Nowadays everyone's doing their own Instagram and they're retouching and filters and everything else. Now everyone wants to be that celebrity or celebritant. So what happened? What was the process? Well, I remember getting. I was told to sign a contract, I was given a personal trainer. I didn't have to worry about where I lived cause I moved into the model house. So my whole day became from being so erratic and fractured to being so structured. So I knew what my day was ahead and I felt safe and I didn't have to have sex with anyone. I was like, my God, this is a revelation. And getting paid. So you were enjoying it then? At the beginning at least I was. Cause I was very green and shy to that environment. I was like just. I had big eyes, you know, I had big eyes. And you're thinking about wow, this is like really great. So why didn't you continue doing that? What do you mean? I did it. I got a contract for seven years I did it for seven years. Patsy of my life. I signed away my rights to who I was, my image and my personal life for seven years. And did you enjoy it? Did I enjoy it? On one level, I like the security and also the fiscal freedoms that it gave me. I mean, I bought a house, I lived in Chelsea, I had an Aston Martin. I went to all the wonderful parties, I had lovely clothes, wonderful soirees, I traveled first class, had a personal trainer. I mean, what's not to like? However, I wasn't happy because to me it was like, it was like a mirage. It was a dream. But you were living the dream. What was not to like? It may seem on the outside that it was a dream, but for me it was like a mental nightmare. Why? Imagine every morning waking up and, you know, like, you have a bad hair day or, you know, we wake up and you want to try and get ready for work or put your clothes on or put your makeup on and trying to find the dress that you feel comfortable in that day. Well, I had that for seven years. It was like me putting a straight jacket on. Soon as I woke up, it was like, I hate what I see in the mirror, but everyone else loves it. So I had to go with it because people were making money out of me. So how did you cope with it? How did you get through drugs? Tell us about the drugs. Oh, I love my drugs, dear. They were. I self medicated. I did cocaine, I did heroin, I did, you know, was there anything, were there any drugs that you didn't do? Well, everyone was on pcp, which was Angel Dice. Oh, okay, Angel. And it was. Oh, it was, it went with, it went with that scene. Don't forget. We were just coming into the middle, middle 70s coming up to the 80s. So it was Disco Studio 54. Everyone was on something. It was like the thing. I mean, you know, you took your Diet Coke or it was called Tab, then we can't put, say Diet Coke, but it was called Tab. And then you'd put, you, you got your powder delivered to your apartment, the drug dealers to drop it off, like the milk round. And you put a little bit of powder in the Gl and you get your Tab, which was sugar free. You poured it and it was like Alka Seltzer and knocked it down and you felt fabulous. So how long did that continue for seven years. And then what did you, how did you function? I was like a robot because don't forget, I think I showed you images of me earlier with my body. I was, I Was really muscle bound and very lean and ripped. I mean, I look completely different to what I do now because I had a personal trainer. So I'd have to go to the gym and do a workout. Then I'd have to go to like Corsica to get tanned. Then I'd have to be flying off to New York to the studios to have photographs taken. And it was just, it was like a. It was like a factory, an image factory. It was an image factory and you were the product. But underneath all that, I wasn't allowed to have an opinion. I mean, my job as a model was just my image. It wasn't what I thought or what I. Who I. I didn't have a voice. So when this contract came to an end at the end of seven years, were you offered? Yeah, they wanted to continue it because obviously it financially suited everyone concerned. Cause they knew what they were getting. And I refused to sign it. I thought, I can't do this anymore. And I knew myself, unbeknownst to my agent, I knew I had. I was addicted to drugs and also I was addicted to sex. I was a sex addict. So how did you reconcile not signing the contract with. I just wouldn't sign it. With all these other addictions that were going on in your life. I got my doctor left, I got my doctor to actually sign me off and say, well, actually, because I've got emotional problems and stress and addictions. And initially they said they'll give me some time, but they wanted me to sign. They were trying to pressurize me to sign in that contract. But in the end I just put my foot down, I said I can't do this anymore. So what did you do next? Well, obviously all the big energy and all the structure went out of my life. So there was a big void in my life. I had this wonderful house in Chelsea and it was like I was so lonely, I felt so isolated. I was so addicted to drugs. It was a drug haze. And I'd come home and then I'd try and go down the King's Road and try and pick up some man or he picked me up. And then we'd have sex and go to the swimming baths. You know the sports center off the Kings Road, There's a swimming bath. So I go there, do my swimming, go home. And it was like a routine. It was so self destructive, Patsy, I can't tell you. So how did you get out of this spiral of. Not dis. I'm going to say despair. I'm imagining that's what it Was. But how did you get out this spiral of drugs? I think what happened was that AIDS was just coming into the sphere then. You know, AIDS had roared its ugly head and I just realized I couldn't continue to have that sort of behavior, especially when I realized lots of my friends had actually contracted hiv. So I had to basically modulate my behavior. And it was so difficult because I was an intravenous drug user and obviously you couldn't have high risk sex or because we didn't know how you caught HIV then. Well, I don't think anybody was. Anybody did. Did they? Well, it was like. It was like you were seen like a pariah and I was like the number one victim from it. I mean, everyone would have assumed that I would have been the first person to get hiv. And luckily I didn't. Because they didn't even have a test then. No, I mean, that was later on. It was like they looked for. It was called the Western blot, if I remember rightly. And they looked. They didn't look. They looked for the virus, not the antibodies. That was later. That's right, yes, that was later. Yeah. And then when it came back, it was negative. I thought, this can't be right. And then obviously they tested it again and it was negative. And there was only one clinic. It used to be St. Stephen's Hospital, and it was now it's Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. But it was originally the first AIDS hospital in London. And that's when I came back and I got involved with AmFAR AIDS Crisis Trust, which was set up by Elizabeth Taylo and obviously the late Princess Diana. And obviously, as I was part of that scene, I did a lot of work for them to set it up. And that's how Terrence Higgins came about. And through that I ended up meeting Dr. Lefever, who was an addiction specialist. And don't forget, most people with HIV obviously had addictions to drugs. So I'd enrolled myself. I actually, you know, put myself in rehab, which is at the Clouds, which is off the Kings Road, funny enough. And I, you know, detoxed and I sat in therapy for about six weeks. And he obviously psychologically assessed me. And what was the diagnosis? The diagnosis was severe self loathing underlying with a question mark identity gender disorder, which was your. I have to say he was very good because that's what I was. So he saw me for the first time. He hit the nail on the head because he was dying. I mean, for the first time in my life, you can imagine, for the first time in my Life. Somebody actually could see me because I thought nobody could tell, but he saw me. And I felt in one way I felt really exposed and on another way I felt quite elated because finally I could take a big sigh of breath that I can get help. Now somebody sees my issue because there was, who am I? What am I? So the freedom from not re signing this, this massive contract actually enabled you to deal with your addiction and also set you on the road, set you on the road to transitioning. Well, I hate the word transition because you don't. I hate that word because nobody transitions. You find yourself, you find your truth, you find what suits you. And it's, and it's a long going issue. Long going process is an, an ongoing process for everyone. We're all a work in progress. So how did you then start your process? Well, I had to be referred to Gender Identity Clinic which was at Charing Cross, which is world renowned. And I had to go and see a professor there, Professor Green, who wrote the book on so many genders. And I started undergoing my transition, shall we say. So what was the first step? I mean, how does it, how do you start on such a journey? You have to change your name. A journey. You have to change your name and then you have to secure an employment in a subservient position dealing with the general public as a woman. So what did you do? I ended up working in Sally's, which was in Shaftesbury Avenue then before it moved and I was the weekend manageress. So did that entail you, what did you wear to, what did you wear to work then? I wore dresses. And how were you? And how were you? That's. Okay. So stating the obvious. Why are you laughing? I'm laughing because I didn't know what, I didn't know what you were gonna say, but I suppose it's obvious, isn't it? I don't know. Well, I started growing my hair. Yeah. And I started wearing makeup. And how were you received? Well, it was very odd because I felt really self conscious because it was the first time I was actually in public going to a job 9 to 5 in my so called gender role without any cross gender hormones. So it was challenging. Did you get abuse from the public? Absolutely, I got abuse. It was very hard to secure employment or people to take me seriously. And how did you cope with it? I just persevered because this is what I wanted. Okay, thank you, Angie. If you have any comments on what you've heard, you can always email us. Please email us@presentersomensradiostation.com or tweet us @womensradiostn. We'll be right back after this break. WRS women's radio station, Voice of Women Worldwide. Sarah's Universal Soul Show. What does your soul or spirituality mean to you? Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Welcome back. I'm Russ Cain. You're listening to in conversation with on Women's Radio Station. I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy. And we're open. To see what other programs we have on Women's Radio station, head to our website, womensradiostation.com I'm Isabelle Manevy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I've seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 079-844-22171. I'm listening. Mirae B Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offering is diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client database. We take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. We would you like to know more? Please call 077-8684-8998 for further information. Mirai B Ltd. Making the life of the business owner successful. Let Women's Radio advertise your brand or business. It's so affordable and effective. Reaching out to all women. Call us on 0207-437-7506 now. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help. Visit turntous.org.uk I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy and we're open to share our own personal stories dealing with life events. Staying positive through the tough times. Share your stories too. What worked, what didn't? Join us each week for open. We know you're going to love it. Women's Radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. And welcome back. And now we're going to talk to Patsy on Open. Thank you, Angie. So, Patsy, where did we get to last time? Oh, I don't know. I've been so flummoxed, I can't remember what we were talking about. I think you just qualified as a lawyer, if I remember. Well, I. Yes, I did a law degree. That's right, I did a law degree. Well, it was more my mother's ambition than mine. It wasn't something I ever wanted to do. I always wanted to be an actor, even when I was at school, and, boy, don't. You know, in the school play. And so, yeah, it wasn't what I wanted to do. But, you know, you finish up doing things that your parents want you to do, or my mother. Adopted mother, wanted me to do. I don't mean to be rude, Patsy, but knowing you on a personal level, your personality doesn't seem to suit what I call the legal profession. Well, I think you're probably right, which is why I no longer do it. So I then retrained. So how did you go from law and then. Was that a process? Well, I qualified, and then I then decided that I was gonna take my life into my own hands and I was going to retrain as an actor. So I finished up in trying to save money because my adopted mother had said she wasn't gonna give me any more money. She wasn't gonna fund you? No. I finished up running a hotel for a year. Oh, that sounds interesting. In Bayswater that I won't name. But it was the most ludicrous setup. It was. It was like running Fawlty Towers. It was just. How old were you? I was 25 at the time, and I'd gone there to take a job as a receptionist, and because they interviewed me and thought that I seemed reasonably competent, they offered me the job as a front of house manager. So I had to learn really quickly how to deal with the customers and the clients and to run this hotel. And it was just ludicrous because at the time, I couldn't even boil an egg. And I was being asked to prepare things like, you know, prawn cocktail for 200 and things like that. So I was just making it up as I went along, and it was. It was a very steep learning curve, but I got through it. And at the end of that, I then went off to drama school and retrained as an actor. So how did you get into drama school? Did you have to do auditions? Yeah, I auditioned. I did an ma, which was taught Jointly at RADA and King's College. And then after that I did a showcase and got an agent and here we are. Yeah, I've been busy not making a living ever since. There we are. I mean, what was it like going from the secure world of working as a lawyer, going to the unregular income as a jobbing actress. Oh, it was exciting. You know, the legal. What's exciting about it? Because it's spontaneous. You don't. I didn't want, I don't think I've ever wanted security in knowing what's gonna happen the next day. So you never signed on? No, my whole life has been doing different things on, you know, on any given day. And I think that's what, that's what drives me. It's what keeps me, keeps me alive. So I also know that you went into politics. Well, I thought I flirted with the idea of going into politics, but I think in the end I decided that the scrutiny was that you come under was something that I couldn't possibly live up to. And I think it's a shame that lots of public figures have to lead or they. People want them to lead blemish free, 100% sort of wholesome lives and we're all human. I don't think anybody can ever live up to the amount of scrutiny that you come under. I think that also goes from the way we view because they're funded through taxpayers money. People of a certain class outside of London have this puritanical, God fearing view of people. So if anyone deviates from that so called norm they're perceived to be, you know, or that they've let the side down where in reality I don't think anybody could ever live up to those structures, those structures that are in place. And I certainly felt that I couldn't. So in the end I decided that it wasn't something that I could fulfill. Well, I know. I think you would have made a great politician because you're a very empowered woman. I don't. Because I can say yes or no to a straight answer, so. Which isn't what you're supposed to say. Well, you can't do that. You can't say that in politics. You can't say yes or no. You can't say yes or no. Exactly. Yeah. So you, you know, elaborate, my dear. Yes. And then you were. What about love? I mean, what happened? Well, I found love after kissing how many frogs? Well, well, you know, I was. People sort of find love in their own way. And when I met my now husband, Actually, and I hope he won't mind me saying this. Of course he won't mind. Of course he will. No, he won't. But anyway, let's say it anyway, I, I thought that he was going to be a one night stand. Couldn't wait. Couldn't wait to get him out of the door the next morning. So how did he manage to get your panties off the second time? Well, the sex was fabulous. He won't mind me saying that. Sex down. Well, it's an orgasm, isn't it? Really? That's the bottom line, an orgasm. But, well, that's sad because a lot of women don't have them. This is true, this is true. But thankfully he knew how to press your buttons. Thankfully he knew how to press my buttons? Yes, let's call it that. And I. But I thought he was going to be a one night stand but he just kept reappearing for 20 years. Yeah, pretty much he did. He kept repairing. He was persistent. He was persistent, I'll give him that. I mean, I was blessed enough to be invited to your wonderful wedding and it was such a. It was actually for me because I've known Patsy a long time. It was, I found it very positive and life. In what way? Because it gave me hope because I thought she would never get married because she's too outspoken, she's too strong and she's too opinionated and then to be. And then to see her in that lovely dress and to look all coins sweet. I thought it was so endearing. It took a long time to get to that stage. I mean we, we've been together for 20 years. Well, I think he knows you by now. We got engaged after 10 so it was, it was a slow burn really. But I think we've got. We don't have everything in common but we've got the most. We've got the things that we care most about in common. So I think that's what has molded you together. Yeah. So what about children? I've never wanted children. So that was a conscious decision. So that was a conscious decision and I think it's important that I say that because lots of times when I'm asked if I do have children and I say no, I can see that the question provokes a response where people think that it's because I can't have them and I'm making the best of a bad situation. Whereas in actual fact, you very rarely hear from women who've chosen to have a life that's child free and they have said, well, yeah, I could have children, but I've decided, or my husband and I have decided that that's not for us and we want to do something different. And I think that's incredibly empowering as a woman, that you can. You can choose to have a wonderfully fulfilled family life or you can be absolutely as fulfilled without children. I think it's important that I say that, you know, you live in the center of London. I mean, if you go outside to some sort of salubrious parts of outer London, you are expected to be a mother and have children. Otherwise you don't belong to the tribe. Yeah, no, I accept that, but I think it's. But because people see having children as being a woman. A woman, yeah, in essence. So basically, if you haven't had a child, you're less of a woman. I think some women think that. Some people think that. Yeah. And I think you very rarely hear from women who've chosen specifically not to have children. And they're not just making the best of it. Cause I live at the end, at the end of my road, actually, there's a primary school. And in the morning I see all those mothers. And then you see the career women as well, walking past in their, you know, their or finery, and you can really see that there's a silence that happens. It's like it descends on them. It's like they're being judged, but they're not. Does that make sense? But I think that goes hand in hand with wanting to have it all. They want to have a wonderfully fulfilled family life, but then the mirror of that is also to have a wonderfully fulfilled career. But can you really have it both? I don't know. I don't know. I think you can try, but it wasn't something that I personally ever wanted to tackle. Yeah, but you were very honest with yourself and also your partner was. And you both didn't want. Actively want children. No, which is a positive. I mean, you know, you don't have to be a mother to be a woman in today's society, is my opinion. No, I absolutely agree. And I think if we hear from more women who've made that choice. Yeah, but they're frightened. Then I think that is, you know, or it would be an incredibly empowering thing to hear also, I think on an evolutionary phase, I mean, for a woman to say she doesn't want children, it's. It's a bit odd because they see, you know, don't forget, women are supposed to be fecund and they're supposed to be mothers. That's evolutionary thinking. And also as a man, some men don't find that attractive. No, I'd agree. Yeah, I would agree. So what's next for our dear Patsy? Oh, goodness, I. I really don't know. I. I'm gonna throw caution to the wind and see what. See what life froze in my direction. That's why this program is called Open, because we're open. So who knows what tomorrow's gonna bring? And that's the beauty of life. We have that choice in our lives, that tomorrow is another day and it can be fabulous. So thank you for listening to us and join us next time. And as usual, if you have any comments, please do email us at presentersomensradiostation.com or tweet us at womensradiostn. Sam. WRS women's radio station Voice of Women Worldwide. This is Amy Liu, Voice of China at Women's Radio Station. Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. After a long day, I like to sit in my bath with a glass of wine and listen to Women's Radio Camruss. Kate, you're listening to in conversation with on Women's Radio Station. To see what other programmes we have on Women's Radio Station, head to our website, womensradiostation.com Are you looking to enhance your career? Are you looking to grow your business? Well, then why not? Visit wearthecity.com wearethecity.com is a website for working women. It's full of inspirational stories of women that have been there, seen it and done it. We also feature events, women's networks and other articles that may help you to progress both in terms of your connections and business ideas. Visit wearethecity.com and take your business or career to the next level. Mirae B Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offering is diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client database, we take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. Would you like to know more? Please call 077-868-48998 for further information. Mirae B Ltd. Making the life of the business owner successful. Would you like to host your own radio show? Would you love to be doing what I'm doing right now and be a radio presenter on Women's Radio Station? If you're passionate on your subject or topic, we'd like to hear from you, wherever you are in the world, about what's happening in your country, town or city. It's your station, your voice to women of the world. So contact us. Send an email to involved@womensradiostation.com. I'm Isabelle Maneuvy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I seen this transformation lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 07-984-422171. I'm listening. Women's Radio Station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help.