Exploration

Hi, I'm Patsy, and welcome to episode four of Open. And I'm Angie. Following on from last week's episode, we actually asked Patsy regarding what was the next step for you? I don't know, what was the next step? What do you want me to talk about this week, Angie? Well, I think we got to the thing about kissing your knees, if I remember rightly. Yes. I did confess last week that I had practiced kissing and I had started to kiss bits of my own anatomy, which were my knees. And I don't know. Where'd you go from there? You go to university, I suppose. Is that what you're driving at this week? Well, I thought, well, I'm driving at that. So, from kissing knees, how did you decide to go to university? What prompted you to go. To go back to the stuff we were talking about a couple of weeks ago, which was escape. And I knew very early on that my way out of my situation was going to be through academia, which sounds very dry and dull, and to be perfectly frank, it was. But it was the only avenue I could see that I could turn into a success. So you made a conscious decision. So I made a conscious decision to work hard and go to university. And that was gonna be way of getting out of jail card, but it was going to be my get out of jail card. And so living in Manchester, which was a big city, the next big city after that, to me, in my head, was London. So I applied to universities in London and that. What did you apply for? What professions were you thinking about? Well, I wanted to be an actor. All the way back then, I wanted to go into acting, but I thought it would be easier to do something more academic. I thought it would be more plausible because I knew that my. Knew that my family wouldn't let me go off and be an actor. That was out of the question. So it was law. That was the thing that I thought I would try and pursue. So you applied to law schools in London? Yes, exclusively London. There was no way I was going to go to Manchester because that would have meant living at home, which would have defeated the object. So you obviously were accepted at six several schools, I presume? Yeah, yeah, I was. So who did? Where did you decide to go? Which one? I went to a university on the Strand, and it was. That was my, you know, that was my first foray into living on my own. I snuck off to Topshop and bought myself clothes I could wear at university. And did you enjoy your little trip down from Manchester, Piccadilly? Oh, my God, it was like an escape route. It was the escape route to go from Manchester Piccadilly, arrive at London, Houston, and it was, you know, I was exciting, I was excited and it was terrifying. And it was. So you had this construct in your mind about what sort of student or woman you were. I suppose I did. I knew that it was gonna be. It was gonna be very different and I'd be doing, you know, new things and. And so that was my. So obviously, did you share doms with somebody or fellow pupils? Did I share what? I thought you said doms. I thought you said doms. Dorms. Yeah. Sorry, I thought you said doms. I did say doms. That comes later. I'm sure we'll get dorms. Yeah, well, we had. You were in a hall of residence. So I shared a room with another girl. And it was quite amusing because I had. Was unpacking my bits and pieces and they were all very prosaic and, you know, nothing to write home about really. And the first things that she unpacked out of her suitcase on the first day was a bottle of Jack Daniels and a packet of condoms. Wow. How sweet. And I just thought, oh, my God, what is going on? And, you know, I felt immediately very sort of out of it and wasn't really sure how I was going to fit in with this new life. But, you know, I very quickly. Yeah, I did. I very quickly kind of adjusted to this kind of new. This new lifestyle and so. Sex, darling. What about relationships? Well, yeah, relationships started to sort of happen thick and fast and that was part of. Were you a virgin still or. Yeah, I was, yeah, I was. Apart from experimenting on my own. What, kissing your knees? Kissing my knees and. And other things, yeah. I was a virgin when I went to university. So tell us about losing your virginity. Did you decide who you were gonna lose it with or. Oh, God, no. No, I didn't. I was, you know, I was having a relationship with somebody and it came as like a natural progression of that relationship. It was a very pleasurable experience. And I look back on it with, you know, fondness, and it was a really positive life affirming. So clearly when you've had a positive first experience, you wish to replicate that. Absolutely, yeah. And it's only now I look back on it and I feel incredibly lucky and fortunate that I've had positive experiences in terms of sex. And it's. I know that it's a. You know, it's a comparatively rare thing. Well, the first time is always such a trauma for some people, which is and it sets them up for life. Exactly. And I think the opposite is also true, that if you have a very positive first few sexual encounters, then that also sets you up for life. And I think that's why I'm so open to experimentation and relationships and people. Because it sets you off on that path of no fear, no fear, no limits, no pain, no fear. So you're gonna. Yeah, replicate that. You're gonna try and replicate that as many times and with as many different people as you. You know, you decide is. Is what you want to happen. So did you experiment with alcohol and drugs? Oh, God, yeah. Experimented with everything. I was always one of those people that, you know, if people were passing it round and snorting it and smoking it and whatever, I would always have to be the first one to take my clothes off and get in there. I'm still that sort of person. You know, we know, in for a penny, in for a pound. And that's. That's. I've always kind of lived. But that' I've always kind of lived in that world of if that's what everyone else is doing, I have to be the. I have to be in there. I don't believe in watching life from the sidelines. There's no point. So you're. So when did you start experimenting with your sexuality? When was the first time? Was it with another man or was it with another woman or. Well, it was both, really. I remember one particular incident where a girlfriend of mine had stayed overnight and I was living in a bedsit at that time and we'd gone to bed and sleeping in the same bed, naked, you know, there was nothing sexual about it particularly, or I hadn't thought. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night and seeing her body lying there and she looked so beautiful. And I had reached out my hand and I wanted to touch her breast. I just wanted to touch her and my hand was kind of shaking and hovering over. But why was it shake? Because I. It was erotic and I wanted to touch her, but I also knew that she might wake up and just be completely just angry and, you know, why are you touching me? What the hell's going on? And I didn't know. So. Bitten fruit's always the sweetest. Exactly. I didn't want to hurt our friendship, you know, so I didn't. And I went to bed and I think I'd masturbated in the bed because I was so emotionally and erotically charged at the idea of having this beautiful woman lying next to me and the next morning I said to her, you know, I've got a confession to make. I wanted to touch you in the middle of the night. And she just looked at me directly and she said, I wish you had, I really wish you had because she gave you permission. So she then gave me permission and we then went away for a weekend and experimented together. And that was again, you know, it was sexual experience that was pleasurable and different. And it wasn't long before then I was living in what, what they call polyamory now, you know, back then. Explain that to us. I mean, there's so many labels. Polyamory, menageritoire or. Yeah, it was a menage bisexuals or whatever. I mean, well, I didn't know I was bisexual. I hadn't. There was, there were so many labels now that. Well, that's my point. Yeah, Back then you just kind of went with the flow. So to call it an old fashioned term, it was a menage etois. You know, we lived together, we went holiday together, we all had sex together. And you didn't kind of think twice. Would you say that having all these labels has actually inhibited people more as opposed to just like you said, going with the flow because it felt nice? I think so, yeah. Because now you think, oh, what, you know, what box am I ticking? What, who am I? Who am I? Whereas back then it was, you kind of had opportunities that came your way and you either chose to take those opportunities or. But that's why I never went to university, Patsy. But it was, I think then it was to do with the people that I was mixing with, but also my own attitude, which had been shaped by positive experiences, I suppose. So I was very lucky. Well, Patsy, thank you for sharing that very, very intimate part of your life with everyone, which is very, very brave of you and I have to commend you on that. Well, thank you. I mean, and as usual, if you have any comments or emails, do please send us emails. We are presentersomensradiostation.com or tweet us at womensradiostn. WRS women's radio station, Voice of Women Worldwide, Sarah's Universal soul Show. What does your soul or spirituality mean to you? Welcome to future classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. Welcome back, I'm Russ Cain. You're listening to in conversation with on women's radio station. I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy and we're open to see what other programs we have on women's radio station. 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We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Hello and welcome back to part two of Open with Patsy and Angie and Angie. So before we go into the next part of Angie's life journey, we have a listener question and I think you're probably better at trying to answer this Angie, than me. So the question is this, at what point do you disclose your gender status to a potential lover or partner? Well, Patsy, it's my experience that it's best to tell your suitor sooner rather than later personally. Why? Well, I just think it sets an honesty precedent going forward because there will come a time when you're gonna have to share that with that individual, especially if you want it to go anywhere. And also with the. There's been such an increase in trans hate crimes and also murders in the last five years. I think it's important that you protect yourself. And also the person can make an informed decision about whether they want to get intimate with you rather than it being something that comes as a surprise. Well, sadly. Or something that they didn't know about. I don't mean a surprise. I mean, I've always said honesty is always the best policy, especially if you want to have good sex or intimacy with somebody. I mean, otherwise you're inflicting your personal choices onto somebody else's life. And I think the other thing, if you don't come clean or you're not honest, is that they might wonder what else you're not being honest about. And it's a trust issue. Well, I just think going forward, it's just healthier and healthier for everyone. I hope that answers the question, really. Okay, so I'm trying to pick up from where we got to last time, which I think you were talking about the way you had felt validated and your self esteem had been increased by the clients that you were seeing. Like I said last week, I mean, receiving 10 pounds to be sexually intimate with somebody was a considerable amount of money back in the day. And for me it was like, don't forget, I wasn't just doing one client a week, I was doing several clients a week. I mean, it was easy for me to earn £100 within a week. And you know, that was a considerable amount of money. And also I was working with. And my, you know, my rent for her was paying the electricity, putting 50p in the lecky meter, as she would say. But then she'd always. She was such a romantic birther. So she'd always fall in love with some client or she'd always go off on a little jaunt of having a relationship with somebody. And it was like, I'd have to find somewhere else to live or I'd have to go and, you know, double up with some client or stay with them overnight and then go back on the. On the meter, shall we say? I hate that word, on the meter. Cause that's how we used to say it. Oh, she's on the meter. And so for her. So I basically saved up and I got a deposit. For your own place? Well, it was hardly a place. It was like a bedsit. You know those horrible old hotels in Victoria, which is. You could hire for the hour Back in the day. Yeah, I'm sure they still exist. However, that's what I did. But I was never really there, to be honest, because I always used to specifically ask the client where did he live or where is he staying. So I'd also either say, well actually I'll stay with the person. And also I tried to talk them into letting me have an all nighter. So that's even more money. It was like £20. It was like, you know, it's better than doing, you know, trying to get another client and put yourself at risk. You guess one client that night and it's £20. So you know, you knew where you were staying, that was your rent sorted. So what was. So just thinking back then, what was your, what was a typical day like for you? Well, I would be wake up about when the sun went down, have something to eat, go to the local chippy or go to the local sandwich bar and have a coffee with Bertha, make our way into, you know, get the Piccadilly line to Piccadilly from Earl's Court. And then, you know, we started the rush hour trade. And I'm in the rush hour when all these married men were going home or get in the tube or get in the bus home. So that's how, you know, the sun went down and we went out. That's how it was continually. And then obviously if you did a sleepover with somebody, you'd be at it all night, shall we say. And then you'd be really, really exhausted. And then you. That's where Bertha started taking drugs and she introduced me into drugs to keep me going. And also it, it desensitized me. I don't know how to explain that made was like, it put a veil of a barrier between me and the person I was having sex. That's what you were actually doing. Yeah, but during the day, what would you be doing? Were you still. We'd go shopping. We used to go like, you know, she used to like going thieving darling, we used to call it. She said, oh, she's doing an oyster. What did that mean? Well, she'd go shoplifting. She'd go to all the department stores and try on underwear and things like that and keep it on and walk out or nick perfume bottles or makeup or. But also this of you sort of going around the shops and looking at department stores. This is what led onto you actually then your step into a different world. Well, don't forget I was like, you know, because of my background and my mother's, you know, indoctrination on style and aesthetic. She always had Italian Vogue, so I always used to, like, Nice. And I could read Italian. And don't forget, South Morton street back in the day, in the 70s, was where everyone used to hang out, where all the stars were. And don't forget, it was Browns, you know, it was the store which. Because they had all the best clothes. And for me, I used to go there and look in the windows and see. And one day this woman come up to me and gave me a card. And she says to me, you know, have you. She grabbed hold of my face and my chin and she says, you're absolutely gorgeous. I said, have you ever considered being a model? I said, and I just thought she was giving me the come on. And I just said, no. Why? So you didn't think it was real? Well, I just. Cause don't forget, I assumed she was after me sexually, right? But she gave me a card and I just said, oh, thanks, I'll get in contact with you. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So I went about. I carried on. And then about a few weeks later, she come up to me again. She goes, you never rang me. And I said, oh, sorry, I forgot to ring you. And then that was it. And she goes, Mia. Well, I'm genuine. Why don't you come with me to the modelling agency? So we walked down to the bottom of South Morton street, which was Brook street, and then up towards Bond Street. On the corner there, at the traffic lights where Fenix was on the corner, there was this tall blonde man, and obviously, it transpires, was Valerie Askews, who used to own Askew Model Agency. Yeah. And she was. And then they were just, you know, because they obviously knew each other, but they were rivals, it transpires, and they were. And she said to me, oh, beautiful. I was beautiful. And I thought, oh, she. What's she on about? I thought the. I thought they were trying to fix up some sexual liaison going on, but it didn't transpire. And she said, oh, he's mine. He's coming with me. So I discovered him and he's mine. So we went, you know, we got the. Went down Bond street, we got on the bus, we went down the Kings Road to World's End and down the bottom, just near the Fulham Road was where their agency was. And then we went up there. She explained everything to me, and then I realized she was serious about what she meant, because it was. There was, you know, receptionist typists. So there was no. Nothing sexual about. This was legitimate. It was A new thing for me because don't forget, I was in the skin trade. It was all about sex and taking my clothes off. So that's what I did in the agency. I said, because she wanted to take Polaroids of me. So I said, oh. So she did. And so I took my clothes off. She goes, no, don't take your pants off. Keep them on. And then she actually did some Polaroids. And then she wanted to know my contact details. How can I get in contact with you? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I gave her the phone number of where I was staying. It was a phone box, you know, received phone calls in, but everyone had to put money in and it was shared for the whole hotel or the bedsit place. So it was like it was always ringing or somebody was either trying to score drugs or someone, whatever. But she got through to me. And then I remember saying to me, Valerie Askew had actually said to her that she was casting for a show in Milan for Amani. And they. They wanted me to go with the blonde model that was at Bond street. And it transpires his name, he was a fellow model, I won't say his name, but he was blonde and I was dark. And we were both hired to do the show. And because it was my first show abroad to Milan. I've never been. I've never been out of the country. So for me it was like all excited. I was so excited. It was so new to me. And then she came with me, my. My booker. She was my booker. She used to book all my appointments for me. So that was my first trip abroad and we went to Milan and we were shown how to do the mp. Sorry. My fellow model helped me to do the walking and everything else. And they told me how to do it. I met the casting director. I was told these are the garments I had to wear. And don't forget, it was not just men, it was also females as well. And it was just such a different world. So you literally went from living in a bedsit in Victoria and being a sex worker and the next. Well, can I. Well, okay. And to the next minute, you were scouted and you were then on the. On the runways of Milan in this incredibly glamorous world. Well, I didn't see it as glamorous. Completely surreal. I didn't see it as glamorous. I just saw it as like. The only thing was I didn't have to have sex. I was still taking my clothes off. I was still being, you know, hired and fired and, you know, go Here go do go sees and everything. So to me it was like it was better money without me having to take my clothes off. And I had lots of free time. And so what, you know, what was going on inside your head at, like, this kind of tragedy. What I remember that first trip was I saw a completely different side of life. I saw a very respectable veneer, but the same humanistic qualities that came out. The drugs, the sex and everything else, what I'd seen on the street. So I was very versed of that. So side of it. So I was very, very emotionally fluent of seeing the drug taking and the sexual side of it. But with that came the respectability of the veneer of, you know, glamour, the illusion of glamour, which for me was like, weird because it reminded me of my mom and my family life, because that was all respectable, but underneath that there was a subsector. Does that make sense? Yeah. So how did you then cope with this new world that you were then in? I actually found it really, really reminiscent of my time with my family because I could relate to all the class system. And don't forget, I could speak Italian. And I was in Milan. So to me, it was like me going on holiday. But the only difference was I was just walking down a catwalk and having hair and makeup and people frowning over and telling you how gorgeous you were. I mean, what's there not to like? And getting paid for it and being given the clothes. And that's what I did. I signed a contract for seven years. I continued to fulfill all my contractual obligations. I had a personal trainer. They. I had a house that was bought. I had a great life. I lived off the Kings Road. I lived in Chelsea Square. It sounds like the. You were living the dream, you know, you were living the dream that I'd say a lot of people would, you know, would kill for. I see. I was so unhappy. Why were you unhappy? Because I just didn't feel happy. I just didn't. I just felt, why is everyone just objectifying me and I couldn't be myself. Was it a different objectification to your life on the streets? I think there was a similarity there. There was a polarity there. However, I wasn't allowed to experiment and be myself. Don't forget, when you go into a high fashion, you have this image that you got to keep up and you weren't allowed to go out, you weren't allowed to be gay, you weren't allowed to have do things. You had to be at home, you had to do exercise. So it was almost like being back at home, that you were in this world, but then you had these parameters that you had. You had to live within the confines of. That's about right, Patsy. I mean, you've summed it up beautifully. Thank you, Angie. We will be back next week with Open. In the meantime, you can send us an email@presentersomensradio.com or tweet us there. Women's Radio Stn. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of women worldwide. Hungry? An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to my women's radio station. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. I'm Isabelle Manavy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I've seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 079-8442, 2171. I'm listening. Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten, this is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.jermynstreettheatre.co.uk. i'm Angie. And I'm Patsy and we're open to share our own personal stories dealing with life events, staying positive through the tough times. Share your stories too. What worked, what didn't. Join us each week for open. We know you're gonna love it. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive director of Media Matters for Women. 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