Fit Fabulous and Fifty+ – Dating,You Lost Me At Hello

Hello and welcome to fit, fabulous and 50 plus with me, Margaret Tully on women's radio station fit, fabulous and 50 plus is for all who feel vibrant, sexy and fabulous and what to shout about it. So today I want to talk about dating. Dating. Who should we date, how should we date? And who should we not touch with a barge pole? Now, I'm joined today by my two guests, Alec Zipak. How do I say it? Well, you've got both names wrong. Alex Zapak. The Countess. Alex Zapak. Well, I'll get to that in a minute, but yeah, Alex. Not Alec. Alex Zappak and Charlie Lester. Alex, otherwise known as what? The Countess. The Countess is a transmedia storyteller, poet, singer, composer, filmmaker and actress. Hello. Yes. Is there anything else you'd like to add to that, Alex? Art direction, costume, makeup, hair casting, editing, producing set. Oh my goodness me. I'm. I'm delighted you're here. Thank you. Thank you for gracing us. And I'd like to welcome Charlie Lester, who's one of the world's leading dating industry experts. She's co founder of a dating app called for the over 50s called Lumin. Yep. Charlie was previously the founder and CEO of the dating Awards, an international set of industry awards for online dating and matchmaking companies profiled in Forbes 2018. Have I got everything right there, Charlie? Yep. Yep. Yeah. And I'm delighted both of you are here. Thank you so much. I'm thrilled actually, because I'm going to learn so much from you guys about dating. I'm a bit of a novice at this, so let me tell you, right? In my 20s, I was attracted to, you could say the wrong type of men. I like their energy, I like, I like their looks, I like their sense of humor. I know I'm a bit shallow, but that's what I was like in my 20s. And I'd have found no difficulty at, at all finding these guys. I'd literally walk down the street and they'd come to me, they'd see me, they'd be attracted to me, I'd be attracted to them. Like, attracts like. Etc. Etc. I'm in my 50s now. I don't go to nightclubs anymore. Alex. Yes. Yeah, thank God. Not saying. Nothing wrong with it. And you might, I might even go out to one tonight, who knows? But I believe that's over. And pubs now, I don't really like loud pubs, but I like gastro pubs and I like nice quiet ambiance. I like that sort of thing. Now, a recent survey I was researching this and a recent survey states that the over six, the singles in the over 50s in the UK and the US. I'm looking at Alex all the time. I should be looking at Charlie as well. Is unprecedented. Unprecedented. Am I saying that word wrong? Unprecedented. Now, if, like me, these people over 50 don't like these loud pubs, don't go to nightclubs, where can we find them? Now, who'd like to start off? I think that's probably my territory. Right. Dating apps, you can find them on dating apps. Over 50s are the fastest growing generation when it comes to app use and smartphone usage. Obviously, dating sites have existed for a number of years, about 15 years since the first online dating site. The stigma that once surrounded online dating has definitely evaporated. And in recent years, dating apps have become everyday things. Obviously, Bloomin is a dating app for over 50. And it's been really interesting as we created it this summer, we were about two months old, but as we were doing the research for, it was really interesting seeing how many people in their 50s and 60s were trying to date on apps like Tinder and Bumble, which were designed for millennials, and then having quite a miserable time because those apps weren't designed for them. So there is a growing. I would say there's a growing market for apps and sites that are tailored to over 50s. Well, I'm an over 50 and I've never done the Tinder thing. I've never done the apps. Have you, Alex, done any of those? Yeah, I did the. What was the big one? I can't remember what it's called. One of the really, really big ones that everybody goes to. It's the. Kind of. Was the classic one, but I had a. I had. I kind of had a disaster on it. I ended up meeting somebody really quickly and it was. Yeah, it was a disaster. And we fell in love really quickly and the whole relationship was a disaster. He was a bit of a psycho. And then I went on a thing. Guardian, the Guardian, Soulmates recently. Because I thought, well, I'm really. My big thing is I like brains. I've always been a sapiosexual. Always, always, always. So I was like, okay, it's got to be somebody brainy. And, yeah, it's not for me. I never know what's right in the description. I think it's way too narrow. I don't know where people meet people and I know that's how people meet people. And like you, I. Even when I was young, I hated nightclubs. Yeah. Even though I was singing in nightclubs. I hated them. I like to be able to talk to people. And I don't like pubs. I don't like being surrounded by drunken people. I hate that. I like conversation. I like. I love conversation. Now, I've never. I've never made it. I've never made a concerted effort to go out and find someone. I'm a little bit romantic, I suppose, because I believe that a beautifully attractive, romantic, caring, successful, and emotionally intelligent man will find me. Yeah, I thought that, too. Without me putting absolutely no effort into it whatsoever. I thought that, too. And I'm 50. Well, I'm 59 and no one's turned up yet. So I decided, like you, I'd have a go at this dating. But I went to the online dating. I haven't gone to date. Now, you mentioned something earlier, Alex, which I think is really interesting. But back in the 80s, I think it was the 80s, I knew people. I didn't do it. That used to go to dating agencies. Oh, yeah. When they make little videos. Yeah. Yeah. I never did it because I always thought those people were a little bit desperate. Cause they were. Or maybe they were. If you're out there and you did that, we're not saying you're desperate, but for me, a big leap is the online dating. So have you. You've used an app, have you? No, I haven't used an app. I did the online dating thing. I remember what it is. Eharmony. I did eharmony. Right. And then I. And then that was so. Charlie, why do you think us with. Now, Charlie, you're not over 50. We don't need to, you know, you can divulge your. So to us, it's very clinical, this idea of seeing somebody's face and just swiping. And for me, it's so unbelievably superficial. I don't know if I like someone until they open their mouth. They can lose me at hello. So I guess my point would be. I love that. Lose me at hello. I think the first thing to say is, I get what you're saying about superficiality, and there are kind of degrees of dating app. Right. Lumen is not a swiping app. Lumen is essentially an online dating site in an app form. So you learn a lot more about them than you would on more superficial apps. We very specifically didn't want to have a yes, no function. So you can search through everyone's profiles and they have more detail in their profile. Do they all like long walks in drinking wine and opera and classic films? Not that I've seen one thing I would definitely suggest, though, I think the way I kind of see online dating, I'm single and I use apps. I've used dating sites in the past. I've been to a lot of singles events. The way I got into the dating industry was I wrote a dating blog that went viral. So I have been on more first dates than most people, definitely. And the thing I would say about. About dating apps, I think it just broadens the net. I think it's. I think it's like a bar. It's like walking into a bar and you would make snap judgments on someone that you met in a bar, you know, and it's those initial judgments. Yes, it might take you a little bit longer to hear their voice, but actually you still have a lot more information than you would if you met that person at the bar. So you just get the information in a different. And I know what you're saying about the videos, for example, and the stigma that was on those videos. There used to be a stigma with online dating. There have been stigmas when it comes to matchmakers and spending money trying to find someone. And I think that sometimes people worry about the stigma still when it comes to how you met someone. But in reality, from my experiences using dating apps, by far the guy that the most amazing guy I ever met I met on Tinder, which now is a bit of a hookup app. At the time, it wasn't quite so hookup y. I met the most incredible man. And when we were like mutual friend, we befriended each other on Facebook. We had no mutual friends in common. There is no way I would have met him any other way other than a dating app, which is what I quite like about dating apps. I think they just let you cast your net a bit wider. But I do think you then have to get that person in real life quite quickly to then make the normal judgments you would if you met them in a bar. Okay, fantastic. Now, I also joined one of these. We've used the name. I'm going to use the name. So eharmony. I'm. I'm quite disappointed because I've had a lot of people approach me on eharmony and then I Get on average 4 to 5 emails from eHarmony a day telling me that the people that have approached me have been taken off for inappropriate behavior. They don't say what the inappropriate behavior is, but I believe. And now I'm in this very cagey place where I think are the scammers targeting the women over 50 because we are a demographic that is appealing to people that are scammers. And if we're, you know, women over 50, single women over 50, you know, that's a tragedy. That's a tragedy. At least those women have incredibly low self esteem and are easily taken advantage of and manipulated by sociopaths. That's awful. Or are just really genuine and actually trust people. When someone says, I know, I need to get a train home or whatever, I mean, you're right. This is the age group that gets targeted the most by scammers. And this age group loses millions of pounds a year to scammers. I mean, one of the first things we put into our dating app when we were designing it is a safety feature specifically to dissuade scammers. How did you do that? And what is it? So you have to take a selfie when you're signing up to Lumen. So you literally. Your photos that you upload on your profile are verified against the selfie. The selfie doesn't appear on your profile, but the app will literally open the camera up on your phone and you can't just hold up another picture. It realizes that. So it has to be your face that you're taking a picture of. And then if there's any discrepancy, human moderators check it too. And it's amazing. We see scammers trying to get onto our app. We've seen it happening. They can't get on. But we see really blazing scammers who are using pictures that are not them taking a selfie of themselves. Completely different person in the pictures thinking that. And it obviously works on some sites. They can obviously get through some security measures. I'm shocked. I was approached on eharmony by someone who had taken a famous actor's photograph. I'm not going to mention their names because I don't know if that would be inappropriate. But a very famous actor put it on there, sent it to me and said, how you doing? Then I wrote back. I wrote back to the famous actor and said, hello, Killian. That's all I'm going to say. How are you doing? And they didn't get, you know, they didn't, they didn't respond. I mean, how bleak blazing is that to put a famous person's face on there and think that we're gonna go, oh, aren't they cute? The thing is, Brad. The thing is though, it's really. These days, sophisticated dating sites should be able to stop that happening. They should literally be able to recognize any celebrity face and if it's uploaded, they shouldn't even get past that stage. Okay. Right. Well, this is. We fired up something really exciting here for me because as a vulnerable over 50s woman, I really want to help people out there to feel safe. So we're gonna take a break in a moment and when we come back we're gonna how can we stay safe, date, have fun and not stress about this arena that is. Well, what can I say? Full of scammers. Okay. You're listening to women's radio station. 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Turn to us as a national Charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk WRS Women's radio station Voice of Women Worldwide women's radio station is a not for profit community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help Station welcome back to fit, fabulous and 50 plus with me, Margaret Tully. Before the break we were talking about how we can stay safe when we go back. Well, for me, I have to go. I'm going back into the dating world and it's very different from when I was younger and I don't feel safe. Sometimes I feel a bit scared of, you know, not only scammers on on Internet sites, but stalkers and people that you know are not always honest and people who have agendas. So if I asking Charlie, as an expert in dating online, how can we remain safe and how can I help the people listening to feel safe if they want to go and start looking at online dating? So I do this quite a lot. I would start by saying I hope nothing I say is patronizing because sometimes some of this might seem really obvious. But I will just give you all the safety stuff and then you can pick and choose the bits that you didn't really think of. Always keep conversation on the dating site or app if you meet someone on there because the reason for that is that for a start, you can immediately block them, you can report them. The apps will also scan stuff. So if people have a certain pattern, they won't read your messages, but they'll recognize patterns. So if there's a scammer who is actually sending the same message to multiple people, the app or the site can recognize that. Oh fabulous. So keep the conversation online. Don't give away too much personal information, even when it comes to before you meet up on that first date. I would suggest you don't need to share your surname with someone, definitely don't share your address, you know, and really remember when you go on the first date that you are meeting a stranger. So stuff like don't leave your bag unattended with them, don't you leave your drink unattended with them, don't let them drop you home at the end of the night, no matter how much you like them. And some of that might seem really obvious, but I think sometimes when we leave with our hearts, not our heads, you kind of get wrapped up in something. You start giving away information. Maybe you take a picture of something that's got your address on and you send them a picture and all these things. I think it's just trying to keep your wits about you, trying to remember that you are meeting stranger and apply the same logic you would to meeting a stranger anywhere else in your life. Really. It's a really good point. I was watching Coronation Street a few months back, and there was a character on there where she met somebody and this person, you know, it was a female, and she met one of the characters, met this guy, and he was asking all these. All these questions like, oh, what was your favorite pet when you were a child? And, you know, all these, like, little things. And the character was, like, quite flattered. She was like, oh, you know, I did this and I did that, and she gave away all. All this personal information, and he absolutely cleaned her out, her bank account out. So that is really, really good to hear. Really good to hear. Now, I want to just move over away from dating apps for a moment. I want to talk about what exactly is a date? I was on a date recently, and I was sitting with this man, and he said, are we on a date? Is this a date? What is this? Is this a date? And I looked at him and I thought, oh, my God, we don't even know what we're doing here. So how would you describe a date, Alex? I've said that. I've said, is this a date? Are we on a date? Because when it comes to split the bill, you're not sure, you know, and you're not sure whether the agenda is romantic or whether you. Actually, I get on really well with loads of men, so. Well, let me, you know. So you're not quite sure. And then my idea of a date, though, is I'm, you know, I'm sadly brainwashed by all the things that we were brought up on, which is some idea of some kind of, you know, noble man that comes along and opens the doors for you and buys you flowers and takes you out to dinner and says you're pretty and all that stuff. You know, that's my idea of a date. And you go to the movies and you eat popcorn. You know, I mean, all of that is so conditioned by movies. Now, my idea of a date is something completely different as I'm Where I am now in my life now, my idea of a day is something, you know, much slower, in fact, is actually consecutive amount of exposure to the same person to see if I could stand them long term. What would you say as a date? That's fantastic, Alex. I like that. What would you say as a date, Charlie? I think these days, meeting up with someone who's also single, when you've clearly made some notion that you might have potential romance there, I think, is it enough? Right? I think the only times that it's not a case of a date, when you're single and you're on a date with some. If you're heterosexual and you're out with someone of the opposite sex who's also single, it's just if you're friends, I think that's the complicated one, right? Where you know someone and maybe you've known each other for one and you get in this situation that kind of feels a bit romantic and you're not 100% sure if it's a date. I think those are the confusing ones these days, other than those situations. I think if you're agreeing to go for a drink or you're going for dinner or to the cinema or whatever, if you're meeting up with someone who's single and you've arranged to meet and you're not already friends and you wouldn't meet normally, that really is a date situation. Yeah, yeah, you've answered it much better than I thought. It is a little unclear, isn't it, when we're thinking a friend is saying, let's get together, let's have a drink. Especially if they. I've got someone coming in from out of town next month and they're saying, oh, I want to go out. We must have drinks. When I come and I'm like, oh, is that a date? Are we having a date? Are we just meeting up? See, I think when you already know them, I think unless they actually say, let's go on a date, I think you just treat it like it isn't a date. I would suggest in that situation, unless there's been like some romance before, maybe like, unless you snog them or something almost happened. I think if someone just asks you out for a drink and they're a friend, and I personally treat it as drinks until they then show me that extra mile to see until they flirt. You see, sometimes people flirt because they just enjoy flirting. And flirting can make you feel that there's some chemistry there or something. So that can be unclear. Yeah, I think Also, this is gonna sound very cynical, but I think men have their options. I think they have their backup plans. I think they have, you know, they ring, they find out whether you're on, let's go for a drink. You know, I think they're constantly thinking, well, what's she up to? She's still single. I think even if you've had. You know, I've had friends for 30 years, and I'm always on, you know, unbelievably shocked. I can't believe. I always thought you were a friend. When they make a pass at me after 20 years, that's a shock, though. You know, it happens all the time. I think it happens. I mean, as the older I've got, the more I realize, you know, there really is a difference between men and women. Unless the men are gay. There really is a difference. Okay, let's ask my next question. Men always want to have sexual contact. What? All right, so what do you think the difference is between what a woman wants and what a man wants in the romantic stakes? I think if you look at the gay world, it's very understandable what men want. I think men want no strings attached sex, because there's no. Some men. Yeah, but there's no social stigma about that at all for them. You know, for women, there's not. And of course, they want to be loved because everybody wants to be loved. And of course, they want to be connection. They want to have connection because everybody wants to have connection. But the two things don't come together. But for women, we're expecting a lot. We're expecting somebody to intellectually stimulate us. We're expecting somebody to fulfill our dreams. We're expecting somebody to turn us on. We're expecting somebody to make us laugh. We're expecting somebody to make us feel safe. We're expecting somebody to take care of us. I mean, it's a huge amount to put on somebody. And how is that different? Does anyone want to say how they think a man might find that different? Well, I just think what you just said about the LGBT community is really interesting, actually, because if you think about it, if you've got relationships where it's two men or two women, they are so different to a relationship where it's a man and a woman, and it really is like this kind of polar opposites. They're so different. You know, love is one thing, and, you know, I have many, many, many gay friends who've found the love of their life, and they're deeply committed, but outside of that, and before and afterwards, when they split up or whatever, they, you know, the sex is not such a big thing. It's because we're so conditioned with women for it to be such a big thing. I think if, you know, if men could have their own way, they'd be having sex all the time the same way that they are in the gay world. I think that's just the nature of male sexuality. I think you see the most, sort of the most difference between men and women, heterosexual men and women, as they get older too, and what they're looking for. Definitely when, particularly when people divorce and they come out of a marriage, the different ways in which men behave to women is really interesting. Women take a lot longer to get over things emotionally. So do I. I think men are quite good at putting things into boxes and they just move on a lot quicker. They also tend to move on with women who are a lot younger. And I mean, there's been a lot of studies into this about how men of all ages find women of 22 most attractive. And that is just comes down to. To biology and to reproduction and all these reasons, apparently. Whereas as women, we're generally attracted to men who are of a similar age to us. So if you were plotting a chart, we would go up in a direct diagonal line and the men would just stay as of baseline just on 22, which. So you end up with the women's expectations growing further and further away from the men's expectations, which I think is really sad. And obviously that isn't every single man. But I think it's really interesting when you see people who've been in a marriage for 20, 30 years coming out of those marriages. And the women quite often look for someone who's very similar to the man that they just were partnered with. And the men go for something completely different because by that time, I honestly think it's. It. The capitalist world is so tough, and we don't think about that as women, because in the same way that you have to as a man, you know, you have to be successful. You have to be successful. So they have all that pressure on them. They have all that pressure on them. They have all that pressure on. And then they've got us as well, which is another huge challenging. Especially if the woman that they're with is bright and challenges them in any way. It's a lot of mental and emotional space that's been taken up. By the time they've gone through on marriage, they just want a Barbie dollar. You know, that's kind of not too Opinionated, not too challenging. Because by that time, when they're exhausted, life is hard. I think men get a hard time. I'm a really strident feminist, but I really do think it's incredibly difficult for men at this point. I don't think they're given positive role models. I think they're constantly told that they're awful and that white man is, you know, particularly white men are responsible for all the evils of the world. I think they're under tremendous economic strain and I think they're completely lost for role models. And what they're bombarded with is no information to really know how to negotiate the difficult relationship that they need to have with women in order to actually find love. I think we all want love. I don't think there's any difference from the sexes. Very good. I think the role models thing is really interesting too, because I think so much of that is in the media, right? And you actually see the age difference in the men and women in the media is huge. Look at this morning, for example. I think Phillip Schofield is about 20 or maybe even 30 years older than, than Holly Willoughby. And yet they're the co presenters. And you get that a lot, right, where the male anchor will be years older than the woman because the woman is valued for her capacity to be able to stimulate desire in a man. Which is completely wrong. Yes. I mean, one of the last radio shows I did, one of the first radio shows I did was on ageism and we talked about that very point. And if you look at Hollywood and how they match up older men with younger women, and then a woman will start out as equals playing a love interest, then later on in life, 20 years down the line, they end up playing the same actor's mother. So this happens, you know, so age is very interesting, but it's changed. It's changed. Now, I want to come back in a minute after we've gone for another commercial break. And I want to talk about the stages of dating. And I want to talk about something, what I learned about a few years ago called the rules. I don't know if anyone's heard of Puke. Puke. Gag, Gag, Rules. Very interesting. So we're going to go to a commercial, but Bake, bake. We're going to go to the Bake off now. We're going to the commercial break and we're coming back in a few minutes and we'll talk about the rules. Thank you. Bye bye. Welcome to women's radio station, the voice of women worldwide. Hungry an average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sinks Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen Nunn. I listen to Women's Radio Station Women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones. 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Now, we were talking just before the break and I brought up this book that somebody gave me a few years ago. So I was saying I wanted to date, this is a few years ago. Obviously it hasn't worked because I'm still around but called the rules and I didn't know anything about it. And in a nutshell, some of the things on the rules is never respond to a text too quickly. Only date on a Friday if they've called you by Wednesday of the previous week. Date. Lots of people keep it during the day. No alcohol, keep it light, keep it fun. Three date rule is. Oh, tell us about that, Alex. Three date rule. No petting until the third date. No petting. Heavy petting. Like I was saying, no heavy petting. So what do we know about this book, the rules and how do we feel about it? And I think it's nonsense, but here we go. I find that book so depressing. I mean, some of the bits that you haven't mentioned are in things like a woman must always dress well for her husband. A woman should never show her husband her face without makeup on. You know, you're mean to get up half an hour early before your husband so that you can put your face. I mean, oh my God, it's like the most anti feminist book ever. But as Alex was saying, it does work. That's the most depressing thing about it. So you know the book, do you? I know the book. Tell us about that. I read all those books. You're kidding. I read all of them. I was so. Yeah, I was. I had so little self esteem in my 20s and 30s and people would walk all over me and I couldn't understand why I'd always end up being heartbroken. And I read that book. And then the worst thing about that book is that it worked. And it's horrifying how well it works. How does it work for you? Well, the reason why it works is quite simply we're talking about what attracts men. Who cares? That's the end of the end of that question. Who cares? The moment you stop caring, you become attractive because you're somebody that has self esteem and dignity and that's attractive. And somebody who's making use of their own time and loving their life, and that's attractive. So if you're not living or dying according to somebody's opinion of you and somebody's gay, you know, particularly a male gaze, then you've won, you know, and that's attractive. You're, you're somebody who's independent, you're somebody who's breezy, you're somebody who's going to be fun to be with. I think it's the element of Want what you can't get to want what we can't get. And if someone is replying back to your messages really quickly and they seem really eager, something in your brain goes, oh, maybe I can do better than this person. Maybe this person, maybe I'm the trump card. And you know, they, I could do better. We've all, I'm sure all of us have known men who are really attractive, really sweet, really funny. And we go, yeah, he's really cute, but I just don't fancy him. And then eventually somebody goes out with him. You're like, all of a sudden I find him really like hot. Like, what is wrong with it? Suddenly I find him really sexy. And it's because, you know, when he was a nice guy and available and dying for you, you didn't really, you know, he kind of. There is actually a flip side of this too. So there's like the whole idea of pickup artistry. And there's a book called the Game, which is about how men, so like kind of geeky men, how they pull like supermodel hot women and it's all st. They'll form a semicircle and they'll only look at your friends and talk to your friends and completely ignore you if they fancy you. And then they'll neg you, which is where they kind of make a negative comment that's like a compliment, but it's not. It's like a backhanded compliment. And there's this again, it's just a list of rules where you basically treat someone a bit badly and make them like you because they want what they can't have and because they're a masochist because they have low self esteem. If they're treating you badly and you are taking that on, then there'll be a part of your brain possibly that's looking for some sort of recognition or some sort of affirmation from that person. You're looking for a reward. So then you start to work a little bit harder to get, to get some response. It's a power game. What we're talking about really is a power game. It's the power game between men and women. It's the power game. It's a basic. So how does the power. Right, lovely. How does the power game change as we get older and we're past 50, we come into our own power. By that time we're not looking for an outside force of validation. Hopefully by that time you validated yourself. I, I find, I find it very interesting that when I was in my 20s and the pressure on you to have a partner, have a mate and have children. You were always looking for somebody that was possibly going to be the father of your children. I didn't go down that route. I, I found, when I, when I was looking at men, I found the most narcissistic man attractive because I thought they, they were so sort of broody and in the corner and in, you know, introverted. I found that terribly sexy. And I thought that meant they were really bright and they were troubled and I could. And I wanted to know what they were about and I wanted to help them out of themselves. My God, I don't fancy that at all anymore. I was exactly the same. I was exactly the same. So what was that about? Why did I, you know, Interesting, powerful women or sexy women or women that are not looking for a man to take care of them end up being almost the caretakers, if you like. I think because they're greedy for love, they need love so badly. Whatever happened, when you're growing up or whatever, the idea of growing up with that mirrors that massive need for affirmation, that massive need for validation. And because you're smart, you don't want someone that gives it to you easily. You want someone that it's a quest that gives you something to get up in the morning. How do you feel about that, Charlie? Yeah, I kind of, I also, I think I, I mean, I'm single, right? And I, I look for my, at least my equal. I want, I want to go out with someone who I respect, so I would see them something I definitely struggle with at the moment. I feel like the more successful I am, the slimmer my list becomes because I would expect that guy to be as equally successful, if not more successful on a whole range of things. And they don't have to be the same things as I do. But also I think the more successful you become as a woman, the more men compare what they do to you. Right. So this year I ran an Ironman and I've done various marathons and stuff. And, and it's almost like you're stealing masculinity points off a guy if you mention those things. And the guy who hasn't done those things, even though I don't care if the guy can run marathons if he's got something else cool. He does. But it's really interesting. I think it's a cultural thing though, because I lived in Italy and in Italy women are really, I mean, although it's way more old fashioned than things in lots of other ways women are way, way, way stronger and way tougher and considered much sexier. The kind of tough and the more kind of, can I say badass, the more badass they are. I think it's a cultural thing. I think there's something about kind of Western England, America, where they want kind of little dull, quiet, unchallenging women. I think other cultures are different. Well, I think there's been some really interesting studies just from like, a business perspective, too. I mean, if you've ever read the book Lean in, where she talks about women in. Lean In, Lean In. It's by Sheryl Sandberg, who's a COO of Facebook, and she talks about women in the workplace and actually why it's so much harder for women to become chief executives and in high positions in companies. And they did a study at Harvard where literally half the class read this kind of case study about an entrepreneur, and they read a male case study, and the rest, the other half of the room read a female case study. Everything was the same. It was just the gender and the name that had been changed. And then they had to fill in there. It was the same book. It was the same. It was literally the same couple of pieces of paper, exactly the same history. They then were asked to rate this person on how likable they were, how attractive they were, how reliable. And they had all these reasons to rate them, and unanimously whether it was a man or a woman reading the case study. If it was the man's case study they read, then the fact that this person was really successful and powerful was seen as really attractive traits and exactly the opposite in the woman. And that was from men and women. Men and women find power and success and confidence less attractive in a woman than they do in a man. Don't you think that. Don't you think that's to do with conditioning? That's to do with what we see and hear. You know, just because we haven't seen those stories of women who are. But, Alex, I'm going to hold my hand up here. I think I might be one of those people. I think I find successful, powerful, assertive men very sexy now. Me, too. I'm afraid of that in a woman. I think there's a tiny bit. Not massively. I'm not shaking or anything, but I think there's a part of me that feels all right. I'm going to be really bold now. I think with a man, as an attractive woman. I don't think I'm an unattractive woman. I'll be telling you very well. Okay, Alex, I don't think I'm an unattractive woman, but there's a certain currency you have to interact with a man, even if he's a very successful man, where you can use your femininity. You don't have that with a woman. With a very powerful, successful woman, there's not as much currency there to interact. You have to meet them head on. And if you don't, if you fall tiny bit below, or if you feel in any way inferior or, or not quite as powerful as her, they're not as attractive. Am I being really honest here? Can you stop being really honest? But I, I, I, I don't get it. Because I look at you as one of those women and I find you very attractive. No, I'm not talking, but I'm saying it. I know, I, I'm like, you know, for me, I started a feminist art movement with my band. No, I'm like, you know, lift up your skirt and fly. Absolutely. The more powerful, the more accomplished, you know, the more the largest version of yourself. That just gives me courage to go and pursue my own dreams. Right. Let me flip it another way then. But I find powerful men attracting. But let me flip it another way. Sometimes women don't always like me for the same reasons. But I think, I think there's definitely the issue, and I think perhaps that's where we are in time. Right? We've got, we've got people who have had a really tough time climbing a ladder to get to where they are. And I think the issue, issue that comes up quite often is that the women who have really battled to get to those positions don't necessarily reach an arm down and help other women up because they're like, well, I had to go through this really tough, so you should do it too. Which I get. I can understand that. But actually, in order to have social change, they need to pull all those other women up so that people, so that there are more women in boardrooms and so that it's not this continuous cycle of let's make it more and more difficult. But maybe they've made it because they're ruthless in the first place. Maybe the reason why that they've managed to survive the bullying and the getting through and maneuvering their way up is because they've had to become incredibly ruthless. And by the time they're there, that's their mode of operandi is. But it's a very interesting point you've brought up, Charlie, to say that the same data Created a different response because it was a gender bias. It was a gender bias. It was between the men and it was men and women. It wasn't just men found the successful woman awful. It was like women found the successful woman awful compared to the exact same data for a man. Really interesting. Very, very interesting. Interesting, Fascinating. Right, so great. Now you mentioned something earlier about what is attractive in a woman and what is attractive in a man. Do you remember mentioning that a moment ago? Yeah. Well, in terms of age, I mean, I think it's. What I can tell you something that's very different between men and women running a dating app. I find really interesting. Women are most likely to lie about their age and we've discussed that already why men lie about their height. Oh, that's very interesting. Isn't that interesting? That's very interesting. Because we all find mentality because we want tall darken out, because we've been brainwashed into that. And we believe we must be younger than we are and we believe we must be shorter than the men. Right. No one wants to kiss downwards. Yeah, no, you don't. No, they don't. Right, we're gonna go to a commercial break and when we come back we're gonna try and wrap this up because it's a fascinating subject and I wanna talk about actually how we should behave on dates now considering all the things we've spoken about. So stay with us. We're at fit, fabulous and 50 plus Margaret Tully. And we're coming back to you after this commercial break. 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Now, just before the break, we were talking about dating and I want to talk about particularly considering now we're looking at equality and as successful women, all three of us, I'd say, are in that group. How do you now? All right, all right, let me put another way. I was recently on a date and I was talking to this man and I realized I don't need him financially. He's not as successful as me, he's not as interesting as me, he's not as intelligent as me. If you're out there, by the way, it wasn't the person who thinks is, oh my God. Anyway, stay with me. And then I was thinking, right, so how can I, how can I now negotiate how we're supposed to behave on dates? So let's talk about the stages of dating and how we should behave as a Woman now say, a man has invited us out to dinner. Should we put pay? So I think this is such an interesting topic. And as a dating expert. I've worked as a dating expert for the last five years. This is probably the question I get asked most. From my personal experience. I still quite like chivalry. I'm very into equality, but I like chivalry. And what I've realized is that everyone is different, and some people find that attractive. Personally, if a guy offers to pay for dinner or drinks on our first date, I take that as a sign he's interested in me. If I'm interested back, I will accept. If I'm not, I will adamantly pay for my half of the bill, because then I feel like I don't owe him anything. If I like him, I'll accept. And then I'll make a point of either buying something else. So say he's bought dinner. I'll be like, okay, well, let me get some drinks, or I'll agree to pay for the second date. Because then I feel like I'm doing my bit. I'm not making the man pay for my entire relationship. But I still think it's quite a nice gesture to show you're interested. And likewise, quite a. Quite an easy way of showing you're not actually that interested if you adamantly try and split. But obviously they're not hard and fast. Rules. We were talking about rules earlier because some people and I've spoken to guys these days who are like, well, all women want equality. So I just think I'm gonna offend them if I ask to pay the bill. And some women do get offended if they are. If you ask to pay the whole bill, which, personally, I would never be offended. So I think it's one of those things where you kind of just have to sound it out and talk to people about. So am I getting this right, Charlie? Are you saying that if you're not interested on that date, you will insist on paying half the bill? Yeah. Right. Great. Now let's just imagine that bill has come. How does that. Do you grab it? Do you let him grab it? Do you. Do you look at it and put it back? What? You know, if I want him to pay or if I think he's going to pay, I would just dilly dally a little bit. Getting my purse out. Dilly dally, girls. Dilly dally. If I want to pay my half, I adamantly go in, get my card, and put it down straight away, gotta get out of here. I love that. I Just. Here's a few tips. Dilly dally. Okay, Alex, what would you do and how do you feel about it? I feel that I contradict myself, but there we go. I contradict myself. I've got multitudes inside of me. That's what I do. I'm very much like you. I like the idea of equality until it actually comes to me. If I'm on a date, you know, and it's a date that. It's a date that I'm interested in, I want them to pay for dinner, you know, that's it. I want all of that stuff. I'm very conditioned by that stuff. Can I tell you what I. So if I'm on a date and the man doesn't pay, I'm very gracious and there is no problem. And I have absolutely no problem putting down my half. I'll never go on a second date with him. Exactly. Agreed. Exactly. Exactly. It's a bad sign as well. It also suggests that they're tight, I think, because the thing is, you're not asking them to play for your entire relationship. But one thing I will say is if they asked me on the date, if I happen to ask them on the date, or if I've suggested what we're doing, I think that's a bit different. Yes. I think the person who does the asking should be prepared to pay. Basically. Yes. Yes. Now, let's. All right, let's put that out there. Who has asked a man out on a date? Well, I have, but only because I used to have to aggressively date for the blog. So basically I got to position. I did 30 blind dates before my 30th birthday. So they were all prearranged over three months, which was amazing. Best summer of my life. And then after that, I am. Because the blog went viral, I would get basically free dates all around London. So I could eat anywhere I wanted. I could go and do some really cool stuff, but so that I would get an approach by a company and they say, do you want to come and try our jet boating down the Thames on this date? So then I would have to go out and actively find someone to go on the date with me. So, yeah, I've asked guys countless times, but that's where dating apps are quite easy. But then you'd put it through on expenses. Well, it would already be paid, but it would be free for the company. Oh, okay. Well, that's not quite putting your hand deep into your pocket, is it? How about you, Alex? Have you. Have you asked a man out on A date and picked up the bill, probably, but I probably wasn't interested in them. Or maybe I ended up marrying them. I can't remember. I tell you what happened to me once. I remember I was absolutely besotted with this guy. I'd been dating him for quite a while, and, you know, I don't expect someone to pay for my whole relationship. So then it was a case of, oh, okay, I'm going to take you out to dinner now. I was living in Los Angeles at the time, and we went to the Ivy. Oh, yeah. Nice. Oh, my God, the size of the bill. I nearly choked. I swear to God. So we had a lovely dinner, and then the bill came, and I went, that's my bill. And I picked it up, and I nearly. Oh, my goodness. Because there was no prices on the bill. I nearly winced. And I must admit, part of me thought, he should not have let me do that because it was outside my comfort zone for what, you know, my salary was. It was a lot, you know. Did he choose the Ivy? He chose the Ivy. Oh, that's. No, that's. That's. So then he did the choosings, but I said, I want to take you out to dinner. It's your birthday or whatever. And he said, oh, my favorite place is the Ivy. And I'm like, great. I choked on that bill, I must admit. I took it out. Yeah. That's really unbelievable. I mean. I mean, that shows very bad manners. I've gone through different things where I've had people pay for it, and then I've had relationships where someone's an even more struggling artist than me, and I've ended up, you know, being kind of the rescuing person that ends up always getting dinner. But I resent it after a while, and there's no question, I resent it. Yeah. The one that stands out in my mind, one of my 30 dates, probably the best one of the 30 dates. He took me to an escape room, and then we did Don. And while we ate in the dark, which is amazing. And I'd always wanted to go to. And he probably spent about £400 on that date, at least. And so I said. When we went on second date, I said, right, okay, this is on me. And I booked. Where you can climb over the top of the O2 Arena. Oh, yes. And then I booked dinner at the Oxo Tower, which wasn't cheap, but because I knew he'd spent quite a lot of money on our first date. So I was like, you know what? Okay, I'm gonna arrange an Equally cool date with all these things I wanted to do too, but Charlie, did you put out maybe? Well, no. That's lovely to hear. That's lovely to hear. So there's some. Right. So now before we finish, if I were to say to both of you, to our listeners, if you know our lady listeners and our men listeners, what are your top tips for dating? Give us three top tips. So I would say it's a numbers game, I think, these days. I think don't get disheartened, particularly if you're on dating sites and dating apps and people don't reply to you. Not everyone checks their phone all the time. You know, just get out there, chat to as many people as possible. You have to kiss a number of frogs before you meet your prince or princess. Learn to market yourself. Sounds very clinical, but I do think dating these days is about knowing how to package yourself. Not necessarily what clothes you should be wearing, etc, etc, but just things like what's a good photo of you, how would your friends describe you? If you're writing a dating profile and ask a friend, get some help on stuff to make sure that you are putting yourself out in the best light. And then I always say this about dating. I just think, enjoy it. It should be an enjoyable process. If it's not enjoyable, then you shouldn't be dating. I mean, this shouldn't feel like a second job. Absolutely, yes. Have fun, Alex. I have nothing to add to that. I would say, you know, have fun. Yeah, I would say enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself. Most importantly, enjoy yourself. Express yourself. Get in touch with your sexuality. Get in touch with everything about yourself. You have one life. That's it. You have one life. You have one chance to love. That's it. Okay, Charlie, Lumen. Tell us how somebody could get onto Lumen. So Lumen's now available in both app stores. So regardless of whether you've got an iPhone or an an Android phone, go to either the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. So it's free. So it's free to download and it's free to use. There are, when you go to the App Store, it says in app purchases, those are some extra add ons. You don't need those add ons. You can, you can use Lumen completely free to date. So you can contact anyone. You can search for people's profiles, read messages, reply to them. And, and we limit it to three conversations a day so that you start three new conversations each day. Just to encourage, basically to stop people spamming lots of people and to encourage Better conversations. But yeah, Our website is www.luminapp.com if you want more details. Fabulous. I'm on Lumen. I'm enjoying Lumen. I think what I've learned is not to take it too seriously. And as you say, there's a lot of frogs, there's a lot of. There's some strange people out there. But it is fun and it should be fun. The other thing I've learned is a date is just meeting somebody. It's just a potential friend, if nothing else. So what I'm going to say now is that it's been absolutely fantastic speaking with both of you. It's been enlightening. I've learned something I'm going to try and have. What did you do 30 dates before you were 30? 30 blind dates before I was 30. So it was in the three months leading up to my 30th birthday and I said on blind dates. Now I. We're coming up to a new year and I love setting goals and I love the thought of, I don't know, 10 dates in 10 months even, or 12, 12, one a month for the year. Yeah, 12 dates in 12 months. So I think I might try that and be willing to go and just have some interesting times, some fun times. Now, if any of this resonates with you out there, please leave a comment. Now you can click on soundcloud and a comment box and if you'd like to be involved in the conversation, please head over to fit fabulous and 50 plus and email presentersomensradio station or tweet us on Women's Radio Stn. If you wanted to listen to again or catch up on any previous programs, you can head over to the Presenters page, a women's radio station and find me Margaret Tully and this podcast. Now I'd like to hear from you also on my blog, which is www.margaretully.ininternational. send me an email and I'll get right back to you. Now, I just want to say, Alex, thank you so much for coming in and sharing and have. Having a blast and having something. You're so welcome. I probably messed it up for you. You haven't messed anything up. You've given us a really interesting. Thank you. Honest, you know, completely honest opinions there. Charlie is a pleasure to have you here. Wonderful. And you have to do lots and lots of interviews on this. I hear it's a busy week for Lumin. Yep. And you're off to Ireland to be on Breakfast tv. Breakfast tv? Yeah. On Thursday morning. Well, I'm very excited for you and I'm very excited for Lumen and it's absolutely my pleasure to have you both in the studio, so I'd like to thank you both. And next on fit, fabulous and 50 plus will be the Christmas special, so I'd love anyone to call in and have a look on the podcast. We will be talking about what we've been recording this year. It'll be either on menopause or we did a lovely show on ageism. I hope people will call in on ageism. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to fit, fabulous and 50 plus. Welcome to Women's Radio Station, the voice of Women Worldwide. Hungry. An average woman eats about 2 to 3 kilos of lipstick in her lifetime. Women's Radio Station, we want to hear from you. This is Women's Radio Station. You're listening to Avril Price with Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's Anna Kennedy talking all things autism. And my guest today is Karen Nunn. 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