In this thought-provoking episode of Fit, Fabulous & Fifty Plus, Margaret Tully explores what it means to be a child-free woman with guests Julia Gibbs and Emily Swain. The conversation challenges societal expectations around motherhood and examines whether being childless is truly a limitation or simply a different life path. Margaret shares her own experience of not having children while expressing how her mothering instincts manifest through compassion, empathy, and giving to others in her professional and personal relationships.
The three women candidly discuss the judgment they’ve experienced—both from society and from themselves—regarding their decision or circumstance of not having children. Emily opens up about her personal journey, including her mother’s illness, a self-fulfilling prophecy she once feared, and how she’s learned to embrace the gifts she does have rather than focus on what she hasn’t. Julia shares a refreshingly straightforward perspective, noting that she’s never felt pressured to have children and credits her parents for encouraging her to pursue fulfillment on her own terms.
Throughout the episode, the women explore the deeper question of whether a woman’s value is tied to motherhood, the different pressures men and women face, and how society often makes non-mothers feel obligated to justify their choices. This is an empowering conversation about redefining identity beyond traditional roles and celebrating the multifaceted ways women can contribute to the world.
Main Topics
Child-free vs. childless: exploring language and perspective around women without children
Mothering instincts can manifest through compassion, empathy, and professional/personal relationships rather than biological parenthood
Social judgment and awkwardness surrounding childless women, and the burden of making others comfortable with this choice
Self-judgment as a significant factor: how women internalize societal expectations and judge themselves more harshly than others do
The concept of children as a gift, not a right, and learning to embrace what you have rather than focusing on what you haven't
The milestone treadmill: how women move from one life goal to the next without feeling they're ever enough
Different social circles and friendships: how being surrounded by parents or non-parents shapes perspective and experience
Full TranscriptHello and welcome to fit, fabulous and 50 plus with me, Margaret Tully on women's radio station. Fit, fabulous and 50 pl...▼
Hello and welcome to fit, fabulous and 50 plus with me, Margaret Tully on women's radio station. Fit, fabulous and 50 plus is for all who feel vibrant, sexy and fabulous and want to shout about it. So today I want to talk about what it means to be a childless woman, or should I say a child free woman. Or is that just a matter of perspective? Now, I'm very fortunate to have two very good friends with me in the studio today. Julia Gibbs, who is becoming a regular on fit, fabulous and 50 plus. Hello, Julia. Hello, Margaret. And Emily Swain, an actress friend of mine who has recently produced and starred in a film called the Confessional. Welcome, Emily. Hello, Margaret. Right now, this is a big question. So childless child free. It's all a matter of perspective. Now, I personally made the decision not to have children in my 20s and I haven't regretted. Didn't happen for me. It's not like I actively said no every time an opportunity arose, but it never really happened for me. Now I feel because there's enough women in the world and enough people in the world, enough children in the world, that I'm a mother in many ways. And mothering for me is about my compassion, my empathy, my love of people. So my instincts, my mothering instincts comes into my work, into my friendships. And the world needs people who have got time and resources to be outwardly focused and to be giving, giving of themselves. So surely that satisfies my need to consider what it would be like to be someone who contributes to people on a daily basis. So my first question, and it's a big question, and if you don't know the answer, don't feel any pressure. How do you see your role in this world being some, both. All of us here in the studio not having children. Who would like to pick that up first? I don't mind. Okay. When you first asked me how I defined myself, well, you did ask me a little while ago how I define myself as a woman. And I was stumped because I thought, I don't know. And then I realized I don't actually I define myself as a person. It didn't really occur to me. If you ask me to define myself, I'd probably tell you about things I think I've achieved in my life or things that I'm quite proud of. I wouldn't harp on the things I'm not proud of, but we all live and learn. But they wouldn't actually, in my case, I'm just saying one can only speak subjectively. In my case, they wouldn't be Anything to do particularly with what sets I am. Julia? Yes. Fantastic. Thank you. Now you're like myself. You have no children. I don't know. And do you feel that you are judged on that? I certainly was when I was of childbearing age. But even now I find if somebody who doesn't know me very well might say, oh, do you have children? And I'll say no in as neutral a tone as I can because I. I feel that the subject isn't a neutral one to many people, though quite frankly, it is to me. Then they don't quite know what to say. The last person who asked me that, a woman in her 60s who was a grandmother, when I said I didn't have children, she clearly didn't know whether to feel sorry for me or not. And I felt obliged to make her feel more comfortable, to make her feel more comfortable to go off into a spiel about how it didn't really bother me and this, that and the other. Fascinating. It's funny, isn't it? It's an awkward position to be in. I recently was asked that question by an elderly man and yes, you do try to go to a neutral position straight away. And he said immediately, how unfortunate. And that's really what has caused me to want to ask these questions to women. Do we feel unfortunate, Emily? Do you feel unfortunate? Do I feel unfortunate? In some ways, yes, I do, because I can see the beauty and the gift of children and what it does in people's lives and that joy that is. I mean, I'm a creative person, so I think it must be the most creative thing in the world to have a child, you know, but. So in some respects I do. But I can't go around, you know, with my head held low and my shoulders down because I've not had a child. I. I think I have to count the blessings of the things I have. I mean, essentially you say, do you feel judged? A thing is, yes, I have felt judged by people in the past. And I won't go on to the different bits and bobs that have happened because I just. It's no point. But actually the person who judges themselves most is myself. I think I've judged myself. And I remember when I was much younger, I was very young, I think somebody said to me, what's one of your biggest fears? And I said, mom, one of my biggest fears is I will never have a child. And the interesting is I've never, never had a child. So I feel like it's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy. So in some ways, you go through life thinking, gosh, why did I know something? Was there something in myself? But the irony is that the thing is, I've learned upon the journey is how do you deal with that? What do you learn about that? How do you grow through that? And how do you embrace the fact that you didn't get that gift? And what other gifts do you get? And I remember when I was trying to have a child, my mother was very ill. My mother actually died of ovarian cancer. So it was a very emotive area for me, because it's all the same area. And I remember saying to my mom, I'm so sorry that I didn't give you a grandchild. And she just looked at me and she said, please don't. It's just like. And I thought, here I go. I'm judging myself again. And I went to visit my mother's grave shortly after she died. And I felt my mother speak. My mother was an actor as well, and I felt her speak to me from the grave and say, emily, she said, you've been a fantastic daughter. You're a fantastic wife, you're a fantastic sister, You're a fantastic friend. And I felt her saying to look about all the things you are. I remember reading, I used to have it on my fridge. A little boy said, I thank God that I have legs, because some people have no shoes. So it's this thing of embracing what we have and not what we haven't got. And that's the lesson for me. That's the lesson. And the fact that children are a gift. They are not a right. You can't go and buy them off the shelf, you know. Lovely. Thank you so much for that. That's really tender and really. No, it's a really soft place you've gone, and it's a really beautiful place you've gone. And having that conversation with a mother about being a mother. Can I ask you, what age were you when you thought or felt that if you weren't a mother, it would be the worst fear? I think it was probably in my 20s, but I think that was partly because I wondered if I'd ever get married. You know, I've never meet the right person because I wanted those things. And so I think it's. And then it's like, when I. Will I ever get married? And then when you get to being married, it's like, will I ever be a mother? And then when some people becomes mother, it's like, will I ever be a good mother? And Then will I ever have grandchildren? It's like this constant thing of like, oh, I reached this milestone, and now I must reach this road. And it's like, oh, for God's sake, what do we do to ourselves? We're constantly. It sounds like we're constantly under pressure to be something all the time. Yeah, but I think that is the way the world is anyway, isn't it? We never feel we're enough. Do you feel men, Julia? Do you feel. Do you feel that men are under the same pressure? Probably not. Well, they're under different pressures, I would imagine. Yeah. I remember as a teenager watching some program about teenage angst on the television with my mother. And I said to my mother, they have all these programs about what girls go through, but what about what boys go through? I know that's not the subject at the moment, but men, as they grow up, they feel they've got to provide and succeed. And women don't have that pressure so much. Yeah, I. I never. I never felt the pressure to have a child. And the way I viewed it is that the world. I. When I was in my twenties, I thought the world was quite a horrible place. I thought there was so much misery and so much pain. Why would I want to bring someone into this world? And how. You know, sometimes having a child is for selfish reasons. Throw that out there. I'm sure people would disagree, but I find sometimes you want to have a child because you're afraid of certain things, of getting old and not having someone look after you, or the pressure put on you by society and by our parents and by lots of things. That that's what our role is in life. And when we don't follow that role, how do we then feel? Not that we failed, but we are as valuable as anyone out there, having made different decisions. So I want to ask Julia, does that ever. Has that ever came. Have you ever thought about your value as a woman? Considering the fact you haven't had a child? Considering that I haven't had a child, no. I'll be honest with you. It doesn't bother me. Yeah, it really doesn't. My parents were never desperate for me or my sister to provide grandchildren for them. In fact, when we were in our late 30s, I can remember my dad saying to us once, don't, for heaven's sake, feel you've got to have a child to fulfill yourself. Inverted commas. And we said, it's all right, dad. We don't. And we were brought up in a happy family, me, my sister and my brother. My sister and I never ever particularly wanted children. It wasn't a dislike of children or a fear or a hatred or anything. It just never occurred to us that we would. We don't know why. Because we had an ordinary, happy, middle class nuclear family. Yes, yes. And it never occurred to us. And we both talked about that in later life. Now she's 59 and I'm 61. Why didn't we. And we thought it just comes down to our personalities. Can I ask you, throw another question at you then? Do you have a lot of friends who don't have children? Yes. Do you have a lot of friends, Emily, who don't have children? Very few. Very few. Now I have a lot of friends who don't have children and I find this a very interesting subject. So as you say, you don't know the reasons? No, but it's an interesting, an interesting question that you've got a lot of friends who don't have children. You've never considered it? You don't miss it? No, I'm in that camp. Emily, you have a slightly different perspective on this and you have a different. Most of my really good friends have kids. I've got more and more friendships now with people who don't have couples who don't have children. But yeah, my journey has been surrounded with people who've had children. Absolutely. That must create, you know, I think nobody. Yes. I think there are lots of milestones. You know, people don't want to tell you you're pregnant because they think people like to manage your, you know, how you're going to react to things. So it's hard. Do you know, I'm gonna just leave it there for a Emily because we're going to go to a commercial break but when we come back, I'd like to pick up on that because that's a very, very interesting, different perspective. Thank you very much from all the presenters and the team behind women's radio station. Thank you for listening. You've been the most amazing audience with your sparkling enthusiasm and support. So from our hearts, we would like to wish you a very merry Christmas and a wonderful new year. Full of joy and surpr is. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money or are you hoping you have enough for retirement? You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash but just don't know where to start. @empowerandenrich.org. you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. Get in touch with me@empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Hi, my name is Michelle Bartlett, the founder of Live Laugh Love Ladies Club. We're looking for ladies to link arms across the globe. This is a new vibrant brand connecting women socially. Our club members enjoy great food, fun and inspiring speakers while making friends of all generations. If you're a social butterfly in your community, this fast growing franchise may be for you. You or we invite national companies to advertise within our closed network of members. Please visit LiveLaughladies Club. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help visit turntous.org.uk Let me tell you about Jermyn Street Theatre. This is a secret theatre in the heart of the West End. Once found, never forgotten. This is where careers ignite, where playwrights take risks, where great actors perform just feet away from the audience. This is where magic happens. We would love you to join our mailing list or become a sponsor or just buy a ticket to one of our shows. The website is www.germanstreettheatre.co.uk. Women's Radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. You may have heard of Alexander Fleming, the guy who discovered penicillin because he couldn't be bothered to wash his dishes before going on holiday. But you might have not heard of Margaret Hutchinson Rousseau, the chemical engineer who invented a way to mass produce penicillin. Before her, at any one time, only 10 people in the world could be treated with penicillin. It's Hutchison Rousseau, who was responsible for saving literally millions of lives with her invention. But she's always been overshadowed by a man. Welcome back to Fit, Fabulous and 50 Plus. We were talking just before the break about Emily. You have a lot of friends who are mostly all mothers. You have very few friends and not mothers and there's a certain sadness that you feel could you talk about that a little bit. Well, I think it's complex. I think some of. Some of it's because you tend to feel excluded, and people don't want to make you feel excluded. It's just that, I mean, I'm lucky. I'm like godchildren to most of those kids, you know, so I've. But it's just the milestones. I think it's. It's. I think we were talking about this earlier. It's quite cyclical. So I'll have times when I'm kind of over it. Like, you know, I didn't. Didn't have children. It didn't happen. You know, I. My mother dying and all of that. Then it was something else, and then I'm fine. And then I see, you know, a new, sort of a new milestone for them with their children. They've just passed university or they've got their first jobs or. And they have a lot to look forward to. I think we were talking about this, and I've done a lot of senior care, so I've had too much of the other way. It gets rather depressing. So, yes, there is sadness, and talking about it brings the sadness up again. It's fine. But you know what? I really am okay. And I think I am able to. I was the other day. I saw a whole load of children and all I had was joy looking at them. I just thought, they're the funniest things. Creatures, characters, watching them play. And I felt nothing but joy. And I looked at this young couple who've got like six kids under, like, 32, and I think, my God, I mean, they're so brave. But it was joyous. And I thought, you know, I'm in a good place. I can really enjoy it. I pick up the babies, I dangle them, I throw them in the air, and I'm quite happy to give them back again. And I thought, yeah, I'm a flipping good mother, but it's okay. I use my mothering elsewhere. And that's the most important thing is you do not reject your gift of mothering. You let it come out, you embrace it. You just. You just have joy in it. But don't worry about it, because it didn't happen. It's no point going there. What is the point? You know, there is a purpose for me, and I believe that. And maybe it's a purpose that I would never be able to fulfill if I had been a natural mum. And that is. That is really beautiful way of putting it. And no, because I'm I'm. I'm kind of. I. I did not choose not to be a mother. I just didn't feel strongly enough that that's what I wanted in life. But I had a mother that told me, don't have children. So I guess I was quite obedient. Now, I've got two very different perspectives here. Julia, you say you're really glad you're not a mother. In many ways, yes. Yeah. So you're very, very happy with that decision? Oh, yes. It wasn't a decision. It just didn't happen. But I think if I'd have wanted children, and I've known many women who do, then I would have made it happen. Yes, exactly. And I feel the same way. If I really wanted children, I would have done it. But I didn't want to have a child out of my own need. And I didn't want to have a child because I didn't want it enough. And I think for me to have a child would be the most incredible experience. But I would give everything. My whole life would be about that child, and I'd have no energy and no nothing. Nothing would take its place. And now I'm gonna go over to Emily, who says that now you have a creative output and your career is very much your. Where all your energy goes. And if you'd have had a child, you'd have been in conflict with that. I think I would, because I think that's because I'm an actor and it's the most demanding mistress of all. It's the mistress that keeps asking much of you and not really giving that much back. But the whole point is, is that my. Because I'm a child of actors, you know, I love my mum and dad, but the reality is it was bloody hard being an actor's kid. And, you know, they were not available to me a lot of the time, and it was a very painful place. I was not a confident adult. I had lots of issues that come through. Abandoned. Being abandoned as a child, or effectively abandoned as a child, even though I knew they were working and they loved me. It's very complex and we haven't got time for it now. And I won't go onto it, but I think I would. All of these feelings. Feelings would have come up if I'd had a child. Possibly. I don't know. Who do I. I don't know because it's not happened. But I think I. I have got an energy and a focus now that I am able to give to my career. I mean, I'm married to. And I have commitments. I have a lovely dog. You know, there's a few things because I don't have the child I don't have. You know, I haven't had kids. So I don't know. I'm just. I can just see there is. There is a positive in that. It's not all negative. There's a lots of positives and. And who knows what my path is? I don't know. I'm just. I'm putting one step in front of me every day, and I think that's all you can do. Absolutely well, my purpose for doing this interview today is from the man who said to me how unfortunate I am me as a woman because I haven't had a child. And I just want to say to this inelegant and insensitive man, you didn't know my circumstances, so I'm not in pain about it, but I could have been because I may have been unable to have children. For those women that have been unable to have children, my heart breaks for you, it really does. And so I don't care for people that feel sorry for me in my life decision. So I just want to talk about that. What would you like to say to those people who feel sorry for you? What would you like to say to them? Julia, there's absolutely no need. Absolutely. No, I'm not sorry for me. No. I wonder if the lady doth protest too much. I mean, why do they feel sorry for me? Perhaps there are things they regret. I look at it this way. You regret a lot if you don't have children. You regret a lot if you do. You can't have everything, can you? And I think I know there are people who've wanted women, I'm talking about, who've wanted children since they were about 16. Yeah. And jolly good luck to them. My brother has wanted to be a dad since he was a teenager, and he is, and he's a great dad. But no, it doesn't bother me. And all this stuff about, oh, someone to look after you in your old age. I had a neighbor who. I do all her shopping for her, run errands for her. She's dead now and she had two children. One was in Belfast and one was in New Zealand. I never saw either of them. So it's not really a guarantee that you're going to be looked after, is it? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. What would you like to say to someone who gives you sympathy for your plight? I think it depends how it's delivered. Actually, I Think there's two aspects. I mean, I have been put in a position where I have to feel, I have to justify myself and explain myself, which I, I don't feel comfortable about. But some people have said it in a way that they know they can see my pain. And so they say it in a way which is, which is like they're standing with me in that part of me that you know is in grief for. That, you know, there is a part that grieves for that and will always grieve for that. And so I think it depends how it's delivered, but I certainly have had to stand my ground. And that feels uncomfortable. And I think, yeah, it's ignorance and I think it's lack of breadth and of understanding the issues. So I really, I don't think there's a, there's a tick box answer, really. I think you have to look someone squarely and look them in the eye and see where it's coming from. And a lot of people come, they don't mean to be like that, but you have to therefore be the bigger person and just give them a big broad smile and sign, no, it's, it's, it's a fucking awful world sometimes. But I'm okay. Thank you. And you know, so I think, I think. Excuse, I'm like, I'm not allowed to swear on, sorry, Big pardon everybody. You can blip it out. But yeah, I think, yeah, it depends how it's delivered and I think it depends who's delivering it. And I think it depends where it's coming from. In that person. Well, I'm in that person. I find with most people that you talk to, you always consider the source, don't you? Whatever, whatever their views are, it's usually they're speaking about themselves and very rarely has it got anything to do with you. Yeah, yeah. But I'd just like to say to that man and to people out there who feel sorry for me, I'm sufficient in myself. I'm complete. I'm happy, I'm strong enough to see life through on my own and I can take care of myself. My focus is how I can contribute to society with my energy, love, resources, creativity, confidence and compassion. Because I'm free to give to people. All people groups, children, by the way I teach, I deal with children all the time. And the elderly, which is what you came up with, Emily, which I love. And I am outward focused and I give love and support to all. So please, please don't feel sorry for me because we all have a place in this world that is vital, important and valuable whether you are a mother or not. So are there any last things you'd like to say, Julia? As you were saying, Margaret, I think you can be in loco parentis to a lot of people. I'm an unofficial stepmother to a 30 year old and very, very happy to be one. She always looks on me as her stepmother, even though technically I'm not. And I get great joy out of that. I think I prefer children when they're that sort of age. Yeah, we all have our preferred ages. We do, yes. I was talking to a friend of mine this week who said that she loved being a mother, but when they were young they were tiring and now they're adults. She likes, loves it. So yeah, we all have. And Emily, is there anything last things you'd like to add in? Not really. I just think, I'd like to think I would always have a, you know, a listening ear for anybody who wanted to talk to me or felt that they want, they needed mothering, you know, and I think even at drama school people called me Le Maman because I had a very mothering spirit about it, about me. This is drama school and I'm in my 20s, so I think. Yeah. And, and like I had a message my godchild yesterday and she, she'd had a bad fall at university and her mother had been telling me, so I just whatsapped her and she, she sent me the most beautiful message. I love you, Auntie Emily. I love you. I love you. And this is from like, you know, girls like 23 or something. And I just, it gave me so much joy and I thought, yeah, you know, just, I'd like to be able to slip in and slip out as and when I'm invited and not have a bit, not make it a big deal and just use that gift when, when I'm invited to use it, but not feeling I have to thrust it on the world either. So. Yeah, and it is a gift. Gift of hospitality, gift of compassion, gift of joy. Joy is a wonderful gift. So thank you once again and I just like to say now if any of this resonates with you and you would like to be involved in this conversation, please head over to fit fabulous and 50 plus email presentersomensradiostation.com or tweet usomansradiostn. If you wanted to listen again or catch up on our previous programs, you can head over to the presenters page on Women's Radio Station. And I'd like to say thank you very much Emily today for coming in and sharing from your heart and likewise Julia from sharing from your heart. And I appreciate both of you women and thank you so much and thank you for listening. Women's Radio Station is looking forward to a great 2019 with more shows coming your way. All the presenters and the team behind each program would like to say a big thank you for listening. We are the voice of women worldwide and we cannot be without you. 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