In this thought-provoking episode of Fit, Fabulous & 50 Plus, Margaret Tully explores what it means to be a child-free woman with guests Julia Gibbs and actress Emily Swain. The conversation challenges societal expectations and the uncomfortable questions women without children often face, from well-meaning acquaintances who don’t quite know how to react. Margaret shares her own perspective that mothering extends beyond biological children—through compassion, empathy, and giving to the world—while her guests offer their unique journeys and how they’ve navigated self-judgment and external pressure.
Emily opens up vulnerably about her fears of never becoming a mother and the emotional weight of that journey, including a deeply moving moment with her late mother who reassured her of her value beyond motherhood. Julia brings a refreshing pragmatism to the discussion, revealing she never felt the societal pressure to have children and questions whether some people have children for selfish reasons or due to fear. The episode unpacks the constant pressure women face to achieve milestones and asks the crucial question: are child-free women as valuable as anyone else who has made different life choices?
Throughout the conversation, the trio examines how child-free women are perceived, judged—and often judge themselves—in a world that still views motherhood as a fundamental part of female identity. They celebrate the gifts and blessings that come with their chosen path while acknowledging the complex emotions that arise when society suggests their lives are somehow incomplete.
Main Topics
Exploring the terminology and perspectives around being childless versus child-free and how language shapes our experience
The societal judgment and awkwardness women face when disclosing they don't have children, and how to navigate these uncomfortable conversations
Redefining motherhood and maternal instincts as expressions of compassion, empathy, and giving beyond biological children
The self-fulfilling prophecy of fear and self-judgment: Emily's experience of her childhood fear becoming her reality and how she's learned to embrace it
The relentless pressure women face to achieve life milestones and the constant feeling of never being enough
Different perspectives on childlessness: Julia's natural lack of desire for children versus Emily's emotional journey and sense of loss
The importance of parental support in validating choices outside traditional roles and redefining personal value beyond motherhood
In an ever-more complex world, women increasingly need a place to discuss serious matters that go to the heart of
Full TranscriptHello and welcome to Fit, Fabulous and 50 Plus with me, Margaret Tully, on women's radio station. Fit, Fabulous and 50 P...▼
Hello and welcome to Fit, Fabulous and 50 Plus with me, Margaret Tully, on women's radio station. Fit, Fabulous and 50 Plus is for all who feel vibrant, sexy and fabulous and want to shout about it. So today I want to talk about what it means to be a childless woman, or should I say a child-free woman, or is that just a matter of perspective? Now I'm very fortunate to have two very good friends with me in studio today. Julia Gibbs, who is becoming a regular on Fit, Fabulous and 50 Plus. Hello, Julia. Hello, Margaret. And Emily Swain, an actress, um, friend of mine who has recently produced and starred in a film called The Confessional. Welcome, Emily. Hello, Margaret. Right, now this is a big question. So childless, childfree, it's all a matter of perspective. Now I personally made the decision not to have children in my 20s, and I haven't regretted it. Um, it didn't happen for me. It's not like I actively said no every time an opportunity arose, but It never really happened for me. Now I feel because there's enough women in the world and enough people in the world, enough children in the world, that I'm a mother in many ways. And mothering for me is about my compassion, my empathy, my love of people. So my instincts, my mothering instincts comes into my work, into my friendships. And the world needs people who have got time and resources to be outwardly focused and to be giving. Giving of themselves. So surely that satisfies my need to consider what it would be like to be someone who contributes to people on a daily basis. So my first question, and it's a big question, and if you don't know the answer, don't feel any pressure. How do you see your role in this world being some— both all of us here in the studio not having children? Who would like to pick that up first? I don't mind. Okay. When you first asked me how I define myself— well, you did ask me a little while ago how I define myself as a woman, and I was stumped because I thought, I don't know. And then I realized I don't actually. I define myself as a person. Um, it didn't really occur to me. If you ask me to define myself, I'd probably tell you about things I think I've achieved in my life, yeah, um, or things that I'm quite proud of. I wouldn't harp on the things I'm not proud of, but we all live and learn. Um, but they wouldn't actually— in my case, I'm just saying, one can only speak subjectively— in my case, they wouldn't be anything to do particularly with what sex I am. Julia? Yes, fantastic, thank you. Now You're like myself, you have no children. I don't, no. And do you feel that you are judged on that? I certainly was when I was of childbearing age, but even now I find if somebody who doesn't know me very well might say, "Oh, do you have children?" and I'll say, "No," in as neutral a tone as I can because I feel that the subject isn't a neutral one to many people, though quite frankly it is to me, then they don't quite know what to say. The last person who asked me that, a woman in her 60s who was a grandmother, when I said I didn't have children, she didn't— clearly didn't know whether to feel sorry for me or not. Yeah. And I felt obliged to make her feel more comfortable, to go off into a spiel about how it didn't really bother me and yeah, this, that, and the other. Fascinating. It's funny, isn't it? Yeah, it's an awkward position to be in. I recently was asked that question by an elderly man, and yes, you do try to go to a neutral position straight away, and he said immediately, "How unfortunate." And that's really what has caused me to want to ask these questions to women. Do we feel unfortunate, Emily? Do you feel unfortunate? Do I feel unfortunate? In some ways, yes, I do, because I can see the beauty and the gift of children and what it does in people's lives and that joy that is— I mean, I'm a creative person, so I think it must be the most creative thing in the world to have a child, you know. But so in some respects I do, but I can't go around, you know, with my head held low and my shoulders down because I've not had a child. I think I have to count the blessings of the things I have. I mean, essentially you say, do you feel judged? A thing is, yes, I have felt judged by people in the past, and I won't go on to the different bits and bobs that have happened because I just, it's no point. But actually the person who judges themselves most is myself. I think I've judged myself. And I remember when I was much younger, I was very young, I think somebody said to me, what's one of your biggest fears? And I said, one of my biggest fears is I will never have a child. And the interesting thing is, I've never had a child. So I feel like it's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy. So in some ways you go through life thinking, gosh, why? Did I know something? Was there something in myself? But the irony is that the thing is I've learned upon the journey is how do you deal with that? What do you learn about that? How do you grow through that and how do you embrace the fact that you didn't get that gift? And what other gifts do you get? And I remember when I was trying to have a child, my mother was very ill. My mother actually died of ovarian cancer, so it was a very emotive area for me 'cause it's all the same area. And I remember saying to my mom, "I'm so sorry that I didn't give you a grandchild." And she just looked at me and she said, "Please don't." It's just like, and I thought, "Here I go, I'm judging myself again." And I went to visit my mother's grave shortly after she died. And I felt my mother speak. My mother was an actor as well. And I felt her speak to me from the grave and say, "Emily," she said, "you've been a fantastic daughter. You're a fantastic wife. You're a fantastic sister. You're a fantastic friend." And I felt her saying to me, You look about all the things you are. I remember reading, I used to have it on my fridge, a little boy said, "I thank God that I have legs because some people have no shoes." So it's this thing of embracing what we have and not what we haven't got. And that's the lesson, for me that's the lesson, and the fact that children are a gift. They are not a right. You can't go and buy them off the shelf, you know? Lovely. Oh, thank you so much for that. That's really tender and really— no, it's a really— soft place you've gone, and it's a really beautiful place you've gone, and having that conversation with a mother about being a mother. Can I ask you, what age were you when you thought or felt that if you weren't a mother, it would be the worst fear? I think it was probably in my 20s, but I think that was partly because I wondered if I'd ever get married, you know, I'd never meet the right person because I wanted those things. And so I think it's— and then it's like, when I— will I ever get married? And then when you get to being married, it's like, will I ever be a mother? And then when some people become mother, it's like, Will I ever be a good mother? And then, will I ever have grandchildren? It's like this constant thing of like, oh, I reached this milestone and now I must reach this. And it's like, oh, for God's sake, what do we do to ourselves? It sounds like we're constantly under pressure to be something all the time. Yeah, but I think that is the way the world is anyway, isn't it? We never feel we're enough. Do you feel men are this? Julia, do you feel that men are under the same pressure? Probably not. Well, they're under different pressures, I would imagine. Yeah. Um, I remember as a teenager, um, watching some program about teenage angst on the television with my mother, and I said to my mother, they have all these programs about what girls go through, but what about what boys go through? I know that's not the subject at the moment, but men, as they grow up, they feel they've got to provide. Yes. And succeed. Yeah. And women don't have that pressure so much. Yeah, I, um, I never, I never felt the pressure to have a child, um, and the way I viewed it is that the world— I've— when I was in my 20s, I, I thought the world was quite a horrible place. I thought there was so much misery and so much pain why would I want to bring someone into this world? And, and, um, and how, you know, sometimes having a child is for selfish reasons. Throw that out there. I'm sure people would disagree, but I find sometimes, um, you want to have a child because you're afraid of certain things, of getting old and not having someone look after you, or the pressure put on you by society and by our parents and, and by lots of things that that's what our role is in life.. And when we don't follow that role, how do we then feel, not that we failed, but we are as valuable as anyone out there having made different decisions. So I want to ask Julia, does that ever— has that ever came— have you ever thought about your value as a woman considering the fact you haven't had a child? Considering that I haven't had a child, no, I'll be honest with you, it doesn't bother me. Yeah, um, it really doesn't. My parents were never desperate for me or my sister to provide grandchildren for them. In fact, when we were in our late 30s, I can remember my dad saying to us once, don't for heaven's sake feel you've got to have a child to fulfill yourself, inverted commas. And we said, "It's all right, Dad, we don't." And we were brought up in a happy family, me, my sister and my brother. My sister and I never ever particularly wanted children. It wasn't a dislike of children or a fear or a hatred or anything, it just never occurred to us that we would. We don't know why. Because we had an ordinary, happy, middle-class nuclear family. Yes, yes. And it never occurred to us, and we both talked about that in later life. Now she's 59 and I'm 61. Why didn't we? And we thought it just comes down to our personalities. Can I ask you, throw another question at you then? Do you have a lot of friends who don't have children? Yes. Do you have a lot of friends, uh, Emily, who don't have children? Very few. Very few. Now, I have a lot of friends who don't have children, and I find this a very interesting subject. So, as you say, you don't know the reasons. No. But then, it's an interesting question that you've got a lot of friends who don't have children, you've never considered it, you don't miss it. No. I'm in that camp. Emily, you have a slightly different perspective on this. And you have a different— Most of my really good friends have kids. I've got more and more friendships now with people who don't have— couples who don't have children. But yeah, my journey has been surrounded with people who've had children. Absolutely. That must create— I think nobody— yes, I think there are lots of milestones. You know, people don't want to tell you you're pregnant because they think they're— people like to manage your, you know, how you're going to react to things. So it's hard. You know, I'm going to just leave it there for a moment. Moment, Emily, because we're going to go to a commercial break. But when we come back, um, I'd like to pick up on that because that's a very, very interesting, different perspective. Thank you very much. WRS, Women's Radio Station, voice of women worldwide. Sarah's Universal Soul Show. What does your soul or spirituality mean to you? Welcome to Future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Welcome back, I'm Russ Caine. You're listening to In Conversation With on Women's Women's Radio Station. I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy. And we're open. 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You may have heard of Alexander Fleming, the guy who discovered penicillin, 'cause he couldn't be bothered to wash his dishes before going on holiday. But you might have not heard of Margaret Hutchinson Rousseau, the chemical engineer who invented a way to mass-produce penicillin. Before her, at any one time, only 10 people in the world could be treated with penicillin. It's Hutchinson Rousseau who was responsible for saving literally millions of lives with her invention, but she's always been overshadowed. By a man. Welcome back to Fit, Fabulous and 50 Plus. We were talking, uh, just before the break about, um, Emily, you have a lot of friends who are mostly all mothers. You have very few friends that are not mothers, and there's a certain sadness that you feel. Could you talk about that a little bit? Well, I think it's complex. I think some of, some of it's because you tend to feel excluded, and people don't want to make you feel excluded. It's just that, I mean, I'm lucky, I'm like godchildren to most of those kids, you know. So I've— but it's just the milestones. I think it's, it's— I think we were talking about this earlier, it's quite cyclical. So I'll have times when I'm kind of over it, like, you know, I didn't have children, it didn't happen, you know, my mother dying and all of that, then it was something else. And then I'm fine. And then I see, you know, a new sort of a new milestone for them with their children, they've just passed university or they've got their first jobs or— and they have a lot to look forward to. I think we were talking about this and I've done a lot of senior care. So I've had too much of the other way, it gets rather depressing. So yes, there is sadness and talking about it brings the sadness up again. It's fine. But you know what, I really am okay.. And I think I am able to— I was the other day, I saw a whole load of children and all I had was joy looking at them. I just thought they're the funniest things, creatures, characters, watching them play. And I felt nothing but joy. And I looked at this young couple who've got like 6 kids under like 32. And I think, my God, I mean, they're so brave. But it was joyous. And I thought, you know, I'm in a good place. I can really enjoy it. I pick up the babies, I dangle them, I throw them in the air, and I'm quite happy to give them back again. Again. And I thought, yeah, I'm a flipping good mother, but it's okay. I use my mothering elsewhere. And that's the most important thing, is you do not reject your gift of mothering. You let it come out, you embrace it, you just, you just have joy in it. But don't worry about it because it didn't happen. It's no point going there. What is the point? Um, you know, there is a purpose for me, and I believe that. And maybe it's a purpose that I would never be able to fulfill if I had been a natural mum. And that is a really beautiful way of putting it. No, because I'm kind of— I did not choose not to be a mother, I just didn't feel strongly enough that that's what I wanted in life. But I had a mother that told me, "Don't have children." So I guess I was quite obedient. Now, I've got two very different perspectives here. Julia, you say you're really glad you're not a mother. In many ways, yes. Yeah, so you're very, very happy with that decision. Oh, yes. It wasn't a decision, it just didn't happen. But I think if I'd have wanted children, and I've known many women who do, then I would have made it happen. Yes, exactly. And I feel the same way. If I really wanted children, I would have done it. Yeah. But I didn't want to have a child out of my own need, and I didn't want to, um, have a child because I didn't want it enough. And I think for me, to have a child would be the most incredible experience, but I would give everything. My whole life would be about that child, and I'd have no energy and no— nothing, nothing would take its place. And now I'm going to go over to Emily, who says that now you have a creative output and your career is very much your— where all your energy goes. And if you'd have had a child, you'd have been in conflict with that. I think I would, because I think that's because I'm an actor, and, and it's the— it's It's the most demanding mistress of all. It's the mistress that keeps asking so much of you and not really giving that much back. But the whole point is, is that my— because I'm a child of actors, you know, I love my mum and dad, but the reality is it was bloody hard being an actor's kid. And, you know, they were not available to me a lot of the time, and it was a very painful place. I was not a confident adult. I had lots of issues that come through being abandoned as a child, or effectively abandoned as a child, even though I knew they were working and they loved me. It's very complex, and we haven't got time for it now, and I won't go into it. But I think I would all of these feelings would have come up if I'd had a child, possibly. I don't know. Who do I— I don't know because it's not happened. But I think I have got an energy and a focus now that I am able to give to my career. I mean, I'm married to you and I have commitments. I have a lovely dog. You know, there's a few things because I don't have the child. I don't have, you know, I haven't had kids. So I don't know. I'm just— I can just see there is a positive in that. It's not all negative. And there's lots of positives. And who knows what my path is? I don't know. I'm just— I'm putting one step in front of me every day. And I think that's all you can do. Absolutely. Well, my purpose for doing this interview today is from the man who said to me how unfortunate I am, me as a woman, because I haven't had a child. And I just want to say to this inelegant and insensitive man, You didn't know my circumstances. So I'm not in pain about it, but I could have been because I may have been unable to have children. For those women that have been unable to have children, my heart breaks for you. It really does. And so I don't care for people that feel sorry for me in my life decision. So I just— I just want to talk about that. What would you like to say to those people who feel sorry for you. What would you like to say to them, Julia? There's absolutely no need. Absolutely, I'm not sorry for me. No. I wonder if the lady doth protest too much. I mean, why do they feel sorry for me? Perhaps there are things they regret. I look at it this way: you regret a lot if you don't have children, you regret a lot if you do. You can't have everything, can you? And I think— I know there are people who've wanted— women I'm talking about who've wanted children since they were about 16. Yeah. And jolly good luck to them. My brother has wanted to be a dad since he was a teenager, and he is, and he's a great dad. But no, I— it doesn't bother me. And all this stuff about, oh, someone to look after you in your old age— I had a neighbor who I used to do all her shopping for her, run errands for her. She's dead now. And she had two children. One was in Belfast and one was in New Zealand. I never saw either of them. So it's not really a guarantee that you're going to be looked after, is it? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. What would you like to say to someone who gives you sympathy? I think, I think it depends how it's delivered, actually. Um, I think there's two aspects. Well, I mean, I have, I have been put in a position where I have to feel I have to justify myself, um, and explain myself, which I, I don't feel comfortable about. But some people have said it in a way that they know, they can see my pain, and so they say it in a way which is, which is like they're standing with me in, in, in that part of me that, that, you know, is in grief for that. You know, there is a part that grieves for that and will always grieve for that. And that— so, so it's— I think it depends how it's delivered. But I certainly have had to stand my ground, and that feels uncomfortable. And, and I think, yeah, it's ignorance, and I think It's lack of breadth and of understanding the issues. So I really, I don't think there's a tick box answer really. I think you have to look someone squarely and look them in the eye and see where it's coming from. And a lot of people come, they don't mean to be like that, but you have to therefore be the bigger person and just give them a big broad smile and say, no, it's a fucking awful world sometimes, but I'm okay, thank you. And, you know, so I think, excuse me, I'm not allowed to swear. To swear on. Sorry, I beg pardon, everybody. Um, you can blip it out. Um, but yeah, I, I think, yeah, it depends how it's delivered, and I think it depends who's delivering it, and I think it depends, um, where it's coming from in that person. Well, I find with most people that you talk to, it— you always consider the source, don't you? Whatever they— whatever their views are, it's usually they're speaking about themselves, and very, very rarely has it got anything to do with you. Yeah, yeah. Um, but I'd just like to say to that man and to people out there who feel sorry for me. I'm sufficient in myself. I'm complete. I'm happy. I'm strong enough to see life through on my own, and I can take care of myself. My focus is how I can contribute to society with my energy, love, resources, creativity, confidence, and compassion, because I'm free to give to people, all people, groups, children. By the way, I teach, I deal with children all the time. And the elderly, which is what you came up with, Emily, which I love. And I am outward focused and I give love and support to all. So please, please don't feel sorry for me because we all have a place in this world that is vital, important, and valuable, whether you are a mother or not. So are there any last things you'd like to say, Julia? As you were saying, Margaret, I think you can be in loco parentis to a lot of people. I'm an unofficial stepmother to a 30-year-old and very, very happy to be one. She always looks on me as her stepmother, even though technically I'm not. Yeah. And I get great joy out of that. I think I prefer children when they're that sort of age, actually. Yeah, we all have our preferred ages, don't we? We do, yes. I was talking to a friend of mine this week who said that she loved being a mother but when they were young, they were tiring, and now they're adults, she likes— loves it. So, um, yeah, we all have. And Emily, is there anything, last things you'd like to add in? Not really. I just think I'd like to think I would always have a, um, you know, a listening ear for anybody who wanted to talk to me or felt that they want— they needed mothering, you know. And, and I think even at drama school, people called me le maman because I had a very mothering spirit about me. This is drama school, and I'm in my 20s. So I think, yeah. And, and like, I had a message from my godchild yesterday, and she She'd had a bad fall at university and her mother had been telling me. So I just WhatsApped her and she sent me the most beautiful message. She said, "I love you, Auntie Emily. I love you. I love you." And this is from like, you know, a girl who's like 23 or something. And I just, it gave me so much joy. And I thought, yeah, you know, just, I'd like to be able to slip in and slip out as and when I'm invited and not make it a big deal and just use that gift when I'm invited to use it, but not feeling I have to thrust it on the world either. Yeah, and it is a gift, gift of hospitality, gift of compassion, gift of joy. Joy is a wonderful gift. So thank you once again. And I just like to say now, if any of this resonates with you and you would like to be involved in this conversation, please head over to Fit, Fabulous and 50+, email presenters@womensradiostation.com, or tweet us @WomensRadioStn. If you wanted to listen again or catch up on our previous programs, you can head over to the presenters page on Women's Radio Station. And I'd like to say thank you very much, Emily, today for coming in and sharing from your heart. And likewise, Julia, for sharing from your heart. And I appreciate both of you women, and thank you so much. And thank you for listening. WRS, Women's Radio Station, voice of women worldwide. This is Amy Liu, voice of China at Women's Radio Station. Welcome to Future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. After a long day, I like to sit in my bath with a glass of wine and listen to Women's Radio. Come, Russ, Kate, you're listening to In Conversation With on Women's Radio Station. To see what other programs we have on Women's Radio Station, head to our website, womensradiostation.com. Are you looking to enhance your career? Are you looking to grow your business? Well then, why not visit www.wearethecity.com. www.wearethecity.com is a website for working women. It's full of inspirational stories of women that have been there, seen it, and done it. We also feature events, women's networks, and other articles that may help you to progress both in terms of your connections and business ideas. Visit www.wearethecity.com and take your business or career to the next level. Mireille B Limited We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offering is diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client database, we take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. Would you like to know more? Please call 077 868 48 998 for further information. Mireille B Limited, making the life of the business owner successful. Would you like to host your own radio show? Would you love to be doing what I'm doing right now and be a radio presenter on Women's Radio Station? If you're passionate on your subject or topic, we'd like to hear from you wherever you are in the world about what's happening in your country, town, or city. It's your station, your voice to women of the world. So contact practice, send an email to involved@womensradiostation.com. I'm Isabel Manivi, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of I've seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 07984 422 171. I'm listening. Women's Radio Station is a not-for-profit community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations. Donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Radio station.
