Join host LKJ for a deeply moving interview with Louise Wornford, a woman who endured 18 devastating miscarriages before finally becoming a mother at age 48. In this second part of their conversation, Louise shares her most heartbreaking moments, including losing pregnancies at 13 and 14 weeks when she thought she was past the danger zone. Her raw account reveals the profound emotional toll of repeated pregnancy loss and the lack of adequate medical support for women experiencing recurrent miscarriage.
This powerful episode exposes the harsh reality of how the medical system often fails women dealing with pregnancy loss, dismissing their grief and offering little to no mental health support. Louise’s story highlights the urgent need for better miscarriage care and mental health services, while demonstrating the incredible strength required to continue trying for motherhood after repeated heartbreak. Her journey from despair to finally holding her son William offers hope to others facing similar struggles and sheds light on the taboo surrounding pregnancy loss that desperately needs to be broken.
Main Topics
Louise's 14-week miscarriage was the furthest she progressed in any of her 18 pregnancies, discovered when the scan showed no heartbeat
She developed an intuitive connection to her body, recognizing pregnancy loss through physical sensations and behavioral changes like coffee aversion before medical confirmation
Healthcare professionals often minimized her losses, calling them 'just tissue,' 'bad luck,' or dismissing her concerns as paranoia, causing additional emotional harm
Research shows 1 in 6 women who miscarry experience long-term post-traumatic stress symptoms, yet support services remain inadequate and fragmented
The emotional impact of recurrent miscarriage is compounded by lack of proper follow-up care, mental health support, and preparation for subsequent pregnancies
Louise advocates for breaking the taboo around miscarriage and transforming healthcare responses to validate women's grief and provide comprehensive emotional support
Society's language around early pregnancy loss—calling it 'tissue' or 'cells'—fails to acknowledge the emotional reality for women who experience these losses as babies and children
Full TranscriptWelcome to Free Your Mind with LKJ. Today's show is the second part of the interview I did with Louise Warnford. And jus...▼
Welcome to Free Your Mind with LKJ. Today's show is the second part of the interview I did with Louise Warnford. And just to recap on who Louise Warnford is, Louise Warnford suffered 18 miscarriages and finally became a mum at the age of 48, and having now a beautiful little boy called William. Who is 5 years of age. On the first episode of the show, we discussed, you know, the journey of, you know, donors, vasectomies, miscarriages, an overall thing. And then today I'm going to go straight into Louise to start on the road again of the miscarriages, and let's lead into the killer cells, etc. So good morning, Louise, and welcome to free your mind. Thank you very much for recording the first part of the show. I know it's very difficult when we are opening our emotions and releasing our inner self out so that people can understand that it's good to share, to talk, and, and to have that voice. And thank you again for sharing your heart-rending story with me. So for myself, there are a few people that have asked questions that I will get to a bit later in the show, but we just want to hear the overview about the Gynae and Clinic, more about your journey on the killer cells. And we work that— so if we reverse back to where we last recapped, and we would be talking about the miscarriage when you'd gone to 14 weeks, what happened on that subject. Is that fine with you? Yes, that's fine. Thank you, Lady Kay. Yes. Okay, let's open and free that mind. Okay, thank you for inviting me back. Uh, yes, um, my miscarriage at 14 weeks. I, uh, I, I was on my way to, uh to the hospital, and I was on my own because Mark was working away from home. And I got to the hospital, didn't think anything was wrong, sat there with all the other ladies in the waiting room, very happy to be pregnant, and I got called in for my scan. And you just know when something is wrong, don't you? When they don't show you the screen and when they say to you, "I think we'll have to have somebody else have a look at this. I'm just going to go and get a second opinion." So they go and get another sonologist and they come in, and then eventually the doctor comes in, and then you heard them words, "I'm sorry, Mrs. Warmford." 'But we just can't find the heartbeat.' And it's— your world just falls apart. All your expectations, all your hopes, all your dreams, everything just falls apart and you're just in shock. I do think the rest of the hospital could have heard me scream, to be honest. Yes, it was It was devastating because I was on my own, because we didn't think anything was wrong. No, because you were in your second trimester now, wasn't you? Yes, yep. You know, coming up to 14 weeks, having gone through previous miscarriages, thinking this is fine. You know, you'd had one before, you know, at the 12-week scan wasn't, etc. But you are 14 weeks, just approaching. You know, as you're coming from that into the second trimester, going in there. Because for people who are listening, obviously yourself at that time as well, where you put yourself under immense pressure, because if you've suffered repeated miscarriages, you may be feeling considerably distressed and frustrated. Obviously discovering with a pregnant can be one of the most wonderful feelings in the world, but to experience miscarriage just once is incredibly difficult. But after several disappointments, it could be tempting to give up, but you continued still. And at that point, you know, in the second trimester, going, going to the scan by yourself thinking, hey, you know, everything's good, I've got over that, the stigma of the 12-week, um, wait before you tell everybody. Absolutely, yeah. And that's the— there was the massive disappointment with that particular pregnancy, and there was another pregnancy that I got to 13 weeks as well. And, you know, them two were— they were all hard, they were all emotionally extremely very difficult, but then the 13 weeks and the 14 weeks were particularly difficult. Because you've got— you thought you got over that, that dangerous zone, if you know what I mean. And because I was classed as high risk because I'm an older mother, an older pregnant woman if you like, and because of my miscarriage history, I was getting regular scans. So the 12-week scan was okay, the 13-week scan wasn't okay, and then the 14-week scan was not okay. And they were both My body showed no signs. Oh, because what they— the statistics, you know, and overall, and this is only, um, an abbreviation of basic— what's that? Because basically, on some people will say, on the average, is that while 1 in 6 pregnancies can result in miscarriage due to chromosome abnormality, only actually 1 to 2% of couples suffer more than 3 miscarriages. Issues. Absolutely, yeah. Recurrent pregnancy loss. The possible reasons for recurrent pregnancy loss are varied but also include chromosome abnormality, uterine abnormality, genital tract infection. You know, these are just some of them. Um, so there are reasons for that, but you know, we're talking about yourself. After only 3, you went on to have 18 of these, you know, that have gone on, continued. So in the whole aspect of these 18 miscarriages, you're still going on. Look at you, are there— and was this the longest one in the trimester? Yes, the 14-week one was the longest one. I, I, I, you know, out of my miscarriages I did suffer, 14 weeks was the longest I did go. Yeah, yeah. And it was devastating. Yes, sorry. I remember once, I remember once I was driving to, I was driving to my doctor, my GP, because I just wanted to get the pregnancy registered and I wanted to, I'd done pregnancy tests that morning and it came up positive, a very, very strong positive. So I booked an appointment with my doctor. Now I'm going back a few years and I was driving to my doctor's surgery because it was about a 40-minute drive Yes. So I was driving there, and then all of a sudden I was halfway there and I have this— it was an excruciating pain in my uterus. It was like somebody stabbing me with a hot poker. I had to pull over. I was on my own again. I had to pull the car over into a lay-by, and I felt physically sick. I knew, I knew I'd lost it. I knew I'd lost a pregnancy. I just knew it. In that short period having— I knew so much. You were now consciously aware. I suppose if somebody is, uh, epileptic— I know it's completely different, but I'm just trying to show that your mind knows your body. So if you're epileptic, you know, you sense that metallic taste in, in your mouth, you think, oh, I'm going to have it. You knew in that very strong pregnancy by the time you got there this had gone. Yeah, I knew, I knew I had lost the pregnancy. I just knew. And I got to my doctor's office and I sat there and I said, look, I said, I've got a bag full, a bag full of pregnancy tests to show you, and they're all positive and they're very strong positive. I said, but I've lost a baby. She's, oh, don't be silly, she said, I think you're being a bit paranoid. I said, no, I know I know I've lost the baby. I know I have because of that feeling I had. And you do get— when you're going through this type of thing, you do get very in tune with your own body. Another time I remember when I was pregnant once, I couldn't stand the smell of coffee. I hated the smell of fresh coffee, not instant coffee, fresh coffee. And it made me feel nauseous, and I just didn't like it. And then one morning I woke up and Mark was making fresh coffee, and the smell of this fresh coffee didn't bother me this morning. It just did not bother me. It didn't affect me. And I thought, hmm, is there something wrong? And there was, and I'd lost that one as well. And, you know, when we're looking at this, um, 4 of you falling in the category of 1 in 6 women who lose a baby in early pregnancy can experience long-term symptoms of post-traumatic stress. This is what a UK study found, and that women need to be more sensitive— sorry, as a woman, the sensitivity and care after a miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy, people should be a little bit more forthcoming and using more empathy when you go to your doctors, when you go somewhere like that, because otherwise you feel that your grief isn't real if it's pushed to one side, you know. And obviously you'll suffer— did you suffer panic and anxiety, etc., through this? Because it, you know, when people saying they can't recognize it's the size, you know, size of a small poppy seed, or how they grow in their heartbeats and everything like But you are, and I think, oh, you know, and some people refer to it as it was tissue, it says, you know, they hadn't quite formed, it was tissue, but it wasn't tissue to you, it was your baby. Absolutely, and it used to, you know, people that was insensitive in that way, and it's surprising how many people are, even nurses, you know, are quite insensitive 'Oh, it'll work next time,' or 'You're just unlucky.' The amount of times I used to hear that, 'You are just unlucky because we can't find anything wrong, you're just very, very unlucky.' I said, you know, I've had X amount of miscarriages now, it cannot be just bad luck. It's got to be because for yourself and for psychologists, cancers, or, you know, the bereavement side for baby loss, you know, with miscarriage, and the support is there for for people. If you do pick up that phone, the support is there. But people are frightened. They've gone through something that is completely beyond their control. They've not experienced that. You have that control. You do. You are in control of your own self, and you don't have that power to protect that. And when it's got— being told— and some of the things that people are told, oh, it was only a bag of cells, it was tissue, it was a child to you. It was your job, that emotion. And that doesn't help with the post-traumatic stress syndrome. At the same time, suffering that, willing yourself on, and Mark willing yourself on— I want to be a mother, what am I doing wrong? Somebody help me here, you know. Um, and realistically, there has been far too long where women have not received the care that they need following a miscarriage. There needs to be a lot of services now, but some of them need to be changed to ensure that everyone and the women are followed up to accept their mental well-being. So you go to the doctor, you've been analysed, you've had your DNC, off you go. There should be, for people that do not know how to open up freely because of— it was, it was only a bag of cells, it was only tissue— thinking, you know, are people there to help? People are there. That support is there. And this show, with you coming on, is expressing this. There are people there, and we must support women in mental health. We must. And mental health carries a wide thing. When you lose that child, it is a baby for yourself. And when you're going and they see the keenness, and when you, you have your first midwife appointment, when you're going through expressing that, you know, miscarriage services, as I say, need to be changed to ensure they are available to everyone and women are followed up with their mental well-being, with support offered, and to those who need it. You know, and also not just for that, but to prepare them if they were going to go on for another pregnancy. And like yourself, you failed, you failed. Did you find, Louise, that there was support there, or could you have picked up the phone or not? You know, obviously for yourself, 18 is a huge amount to have subject both physically and mentally upon your body. I didn't find the support there for myself, no, and that is why I'm trying to highlight it by, you know, writing the book and coming on to shows like this to highlight it, because I do think support needs to be there, and I do think that The taboo of miscarriage needs to be— the taboo of the whole thing just needs to be yourself, was it? Eradicated, really. Yeah, yeah. Now, obviously, with post-traumatic stress syndrome, Louise, you know, some people don't actually know how post-traumatic syndrome can affect you. So you've lost your child, you've had this again, and you're told to wait, you know, 3 months to let your body recover is what is the general information given to you after, etc. Yeah, but there's no mental support, right? How did you cope with the anxiety and the depression? Because obviously your body has gone into this hormonal change Okay, and it could still be evident for those 9 months of you carrying that child because your body's changed, hormones going back, the imbalance, and trying to get that unless you go into it. So, you know, that's what I'm saying. How did you cope if you didn't have that support? For somebody sitting up, how did you cope to get yourself to go forward? I had a very strong husband, a very supportive husband, and he's really been my rock. He really has helped me. He supported me. He's been there for me. My husband and a very close friend and also my sister. So that was my support network. Um, but the medical profession don't really offer any support. They don't offer you counseling, or they didn't for me. Um, so it, it is difficult. Like I said, hired my husband, my sister, and a couple of very good friends that didn't mind if I called them up in the middle of the night to cry my eyes out. Um, and they were very very, very supportive. The only thing I can say now with what we have, when we're going back all those years ago before internet wasn't so highlighted, we wasn't in that stage for some people that had them. We know we have a lot of, um, information to support, etc., now on the internet, but there is support available. So for the listener If you are finding it difficult to cope with your feelings, your GP will be able to access the support you need. You can also talk to, for instance, Tommy's midwife free of charge from 9 AM to 5 PM on Monday to Friday on 0800 0147 800, or email them at midwife@tommys.org. Their midwives are also trained in bereavement support because you need to have that. That's just one of many organizations out there, as well as this radio station, which is there to help. And this radio station is there to help women. Phone in, talk about it, free your mind, and going in there, because everybody's grief is different, right? But with a miscarriage, let me heighten these words. You may not have been able to meet or hold your baby, but that doesn't mean your grief is any less real than anybody else. That is the realistic side of that. So everyone's grief is different, but your grief is on the same— if that child had been born and gone off with baby loss after, you are— and as that person, when it's gone in for that prophecy, This is real. Some women and couples just don't feel comfortable with this grief. You may feel that it's unjustified because you never met your baby, but it doesn't matter how far along you were. Nothing should ever stop you grieving for the baby you made, no matter how many people say to you, 'It wasn't a real baby, it was only a bag of cells, it was only tissue.' You may feel in your own heart that the baby, from the moment you conceived, that nobody can take that away from you. You know, it has been known that many women start imagining their baby's future from the moment that you knew you were pregnant. So some may need that time to mourn for your baby and, you know, all your hopes and dreams. You'd— as soon as you found out, like you said, Louise, you had or you had all these images in your mind of how you were going to decorate the nursery, what you was going to put in there, and it was taken away from you. Okay, and it's shock, it's trauma. And miscarriage comes as a huge shock, not only to yourself, which a lot of people think, oh, it's just me, it happened. It's your partner, your partner, the male who helped you doing this, or the donor, whatever. They're still part of Jenny. You are a couple, and together you're walking this path to open your home into a loving— and build a loving family that you want on there. Okay? And so it's natural to need time to make sense of what's happened to you. Some people, you know, some women sadly don't have any symptoms and only notice they've had a miscarriage after the, um, appointment, etc., after. But whatever experience of miscarriage, it's completely understandable to be in shock. So like, when we go back now, we're going to take the viewer back to that room where you were 14 weeks pregnant, laying there on the longest part of your miscarriage, to be laying there completely without anybody there because you felt this time, you know, you'd coped, you'd dealt with the strength of friends, family support you to get through to do this, and you were going there. And then the sonographer moves the TV screen away and then goes out of the room. Take us on that journey, if it's not too traumatic, to What happened then? Well, I was lying on the bed and Sonja Professor was there with the, uh, and, uh, the jelly on the belly and trying to dig around and trying to find the heartbeat and, um I just knew, I just knew that something wasn't quite right because she angled the screen away from me. I couldn't see anything on the screen. Now normally when they find the heartbeat they turn the screen around and show you, but it was too long and I remember gripping the side of the bed, gripping the side of this that I was on and my knuckles were hurting because I I was just saying that in my mind, please be okay, please be okay, please be okay. And when I heard the words, I'm just going to get a second opinion, I thought, no, this is not all right. And the tears just started flowing, and I knew, I knew that it wasn't to be. So she went and got another sonographer who came in, and it just felt like hours, and the tears were flowing. I was crying my eyes out. And then they got the doctor, and the doctor came in and he had a look, and he said, I'm so sorry, Mrs. Woolford, but we really— we just cannot find the heartbeat. Your baby has died. And Well, I just, at that point, it just all came out and I just screamed. I was just so, it was so traumatic, so traumatic. And I just can't remember much after that really, to be honest. My husband was away. I was on my own. My family live in, my sister lives in Shropshire. And my father lives up in Ellesmere Port, so they were too far for me to call. I think I did call a friend to come get me, but it's just a little bit of a blur after that. And then they said I would— I had 3 choices. I could either take the, what they call it, the miscarriage pill, have a DNC, or wait for the— wait for my body to reject the, the baby naturally. Well, obviously I didn't want to see this baby come out naturally, so I opted for the DNC. So, um, yeah, I, uh, I went for the DNC. And where did you go? Did they, did they, uh, did you have a day clinic or— yeah, it was a, it was a day clinic. And at that time Um, if you want to take the miscarriage pill— I don't know whether I told you this on the last show. I think you abbreviated something that where you went in and were doing— because obviously I was explaining myself, having lost and given birth to my own child, that I was put onto a maternity ward where there were babies being born, and I was told mentally this would help me when my baby's in a cold cot. I can't see, I can't see how that could help any woman, to be honest with you, Lady Kendall. I, I cannot see how that would— when I'm traumatized, traumatize you, it wouldn't help you, traumatize you. Um, and hearing yourself, for anybody, this show is highly sensitive and very distressing because for the listener that is listening in You are with us now in that room. You've taken me back to that room, to my own mind. I think, my God, I remember. And, and that time, like you said, seems endless, what goes on. But we did touch on that subject and said, you know, where things have changed now. But for you at this time, it, it— I'm trying through this is the whole point, Ringo, is to free you up and help by talking, expressing, and making that connection that you know you can pick up that phone and somebody's going to listen. This ear can hear your voice. My ear can hear your voice. And I'm here, and I am with you invisibly. My arms are holding you now, Louise, literally, in united grief, in that yes, our grief was real. Yes, this was real. Now what do I do? I'm alone. How am I going to cope with this? And then you've gone on. So just to abbreviate, you went on to a— so they put you into a day centre, onto a ward? Yes, they put me into the early pregnancy unit, and it was extremely very busy. Uh, I was absolutely devastated. And you've just got one of these I can't remember what you call them. It's one of these beds like you get in the— if you're in A&E, you know, like a bench bed if you like. I was on one of them, and because the ward was so busy, there was two to a cubicle, and there's one of these— it reminds me of a room divider just separating it. So I'm on one side and there's another lady on the other and she decided that she opted to take the miscarriage pill, but she was there because she wanted a selective abortion, if you like. So I'm there, I'd lost mine, I've got no choice, I'm waiting for my operation, and she's there, and the nurse is there with her, and she'd taken the miscarriage pill because that At that time, you had to stay in hospital when you took the miscarriage pill. You had to stay in hospital to actually miscarry the baby, whereas now you can take the miscarriage pill at home and pass the baby at home naturally. But then if you'd opted for that option, you'd stay on the ward until you passed the baby. So she was in the next bed to me. I'm there lying, and I'm crying my eyes out. I'm absolutely a complete and utter mess. I really am. I am so distraught. Crying my eyes out, and she's in the next bed with just a curtain separating us, and she's passing this baby, and all I could hear was, "Oh, it's the size of a grape!" And I'm thinking, "Oh my God, oh my God." I was just— words cannot explain. Them words will stay with me for the rest of my life. Now, I can understand the NHS, not being able to separate you, to divide you up from women that are having an elective abortion, when you have lost your baby. But it was so hard to be there with other women. And when you're touching on that subject, for people's decisions, their own decisions for doing it, everybody has their own decisions for whatever process, if it's right for you, if it isn't. And it is a heavily debated, um, subject. So for the viewers, it is an unbiased show, an unjudgmental show, and I, I will and cannot comment onto that section because everybody has their own reasons. Uh, my comment for you is as somebody that's losing it, which is no fault of that person that's next to you. The fault was being put on the ward, because if you hadn't been put on the ward, you wouldn't have had that. So for myself, for that girl, oh gosh, it's like that, that in her own mental state was probably coping, you know, her decision for dealing with that. However, for yourself being on it, it's very distressing being against wanting and taking, because you walked into that ward with emptiness. Yeah, you walked into a ward completely empty because you have been changed in that short scan period when being told you are a mother, right? You've been changed. You were pregnant, you had a new identity. You was going to be Louise Walford mother. Okay. And this had been taken away from you for no apparent reason, which left you completely empty, you know. And you were losing your identity again as being a parent, from wanting this. You know, when you've got that positive pregnancy test, you're a mother-to-be, whether it's 5, 10, or 26 weeks. You've changed, your hormones have changed, and now you've got simply complete loss of control. And that loss of control is probably one of the most overwhelming things that is the worst thing mentally you can have, is loss of control, because you cannot always control when you're pregnant. It's out of your hands. Whether that baby will grow into a little person, it is out of your hand. What is in your hands is how— when we said, you know, you get frightened to hoover, you know, if you're pregnant and you feel like that, I said, I'm not cleaning for 9 months. Don't clean for 9 months if that's how you feel and you don't want any risk. You want to lay on that bed and do everything you can, but at the same time, you know, is that it's out of your control. Okay, all you can do is when this has happened is your post-traumatic stress is talk. People need to be there, people need to— you need to get your body back, you need to, you know, be ready and trying to see to go on. This is what you're doing until something happened to you after 18 miscarriages and all the IVF and everything like that, you got to a point where mentally, physically, you and Mark had made the decision enough was enough. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, whilst you stopped and you made that decision from the years of pain and heartache, Louise, was a massive decision for you. Mark had children, which are adorable, you love him as a person, but you had to now be in a position where you said, I can't, I, that's it, I can't do this to myself anymore. Like myself, my decision was completely taken out of my hands when I lost my little girl. I had a hysterectomy, a total abdominal hysterectomy, bilateral— I cannot say that word. As you know, my dyslexia, it comes out. But it was a TAH BSO. Okay. And I had an oesophagectomy. They took some of the lining of my stomach away. And as I expressed to the viewers, I had that history, lost my child, had that, came out there. I had no mental support or anything. Myself, came from there to come home. When my brother came to visit me, I came out on the Friday. My brother visited me and asked did I want to go out. He saw I was broken and my husband didn't know what to do, how to help. I've been— lost my child, come out, and there you go, get on with it, get on with it, you know, basically. But I'm going back to 1994 which a lot of things have changed. And then my brother said to me, "Sissy, shall we go out and have a meal?" I went, "I don't want to walk anywhere. I don't want to go anywhere. I just want to go to bed." And I put my head on there and cry. "All right, Sissy," he said. "Are you sure? I'll come back and see you tomorrow." That night I just was blanked and was out. Then in the morning, my husband came up and knelt by the side of my bed. I thought he was kneeling to say to me, Louise, come on, you know, we're going to get up, your brother's coming out too, you need to get dressed, your brother's had an accident. My mind was just, what? What you on about? And then I just— so he said that he was paralyzed from the neck down. He was alive, um, and I needed to get to the hospital. My parents were on their way. I was in complete daze, like yourself, in this daze to go. And then I got there and he died and died. Oh my God. Then was like, what the— unbelievable. Post-traumatic stuff that's gone there. And do you know what? There was no help. And it's not that, oh, have a couple of sleeping pills. I've lost my child. You've taken away from me ever to be a mother again. My absolute trauma. And then you took my brother. So for the rest of years, I felt guilt. As we're talking, guilt. What was wrong with me? Why don't you just destroy me instead of destroying you? So in my post-traumatic stress, I attacked myself mentally. Oh, I just didn't care. Just throw anything at me, you know, to do it. I've had enough. And like you, for that point when you said, I've had enough, but yeah, and then you'll find out, because you're angry, you're angry. And, and, and, yeah, anger. Like, I've had enough, don't talk to me, I don't want to talk about it. But what you did, like myself, I wrote a book, and you wrote a book, Louise, didn't you? Yes. And you wrote a book because we're going to have a little bit from that book, um, for the viewer. But after giving up and this anger and everything to save what you had The reality was, do I crush and just go out there and just— that's the end of me? Or with support of the love of that husband and your family that got you through this. Okay, Louise, you're not going to be a mother, but you are a mother. You was a mother to these children and they adored you and you adored them a lot. And that love that was encased around you would hold that fragile broken glass heart in its hand to then say, why? So you had that, your anxieties, your grief, and obviously going through it. You then, um, how long was it, Louise, before you started then your mind? Because you get triggers, as we know, that will take us back, and that you saw something about an American, um, somebody'd write, an author. Well, I'd, um, I'd had all these miscarriages, and then me and Mark said, you know, look, enough is enough. We cannot do this again. We cannot put ourselves through this trauma again. And I said to Mark, you're right, you're right. So, um, we had a Labrador dog called Jacko, and he was the most amazing dog you could ever hope to own. He was absolutely beautiful. And every time I miscarried, I used to bury my head in his fur and I'd cry for hours and hours and hours and hours, and he would not move. He would not move. He would stay there until I'd finished my crying, and then he'd just curl up beside me. But anyway, sorry, I'm going a bit off topic there. Um, when I miscarried for the, the last time I said to Mark, okay, we'll give up. So, but I wanted to know what was wrong with me. I needed to know. I really needed to know why. I just wanted to know why, you know. I was under St. Mary's Clinic in London, which are a brilliant clinic, don't get me wrong, they are brilliant, but they could not find the reason why these miscarriages kept happening to me. They didn't know why. And I came across a book called Is Your Body Baby Friendly? by an American doctor called Dr. Alan Beer. And I read this book, and in this book, the way— it's case studies— and the way these ladies were miscarrying was exactly the same as what was happening to me. So I read this book and I thought, you know what, I need to know. And it comes down to killer cells, natural natural killer cells. Yeah, right. So I am— I read the book and I decided then to find a doctor in this country, in the UK, that could diagnose these natural killer cells. And I found Dr. Shahata in Epsom. I went to see him. And after seeing Dr. Sahota, I went to see him a few times, actually. I had my initial appointment, and then I had some tests, and then I had another initial appointment. And he said, "I do believe that you're suffering with natural killer cells." He said, "You know, if you want to try again—" As I was leaving, actually, he said, "If you want to try again, Louise," he said, "my killer cells protocol has a very high success rate.". And I thought, hmm. So I came home, spoke to Mark, and I said— by this time, I'm sort of heading towards my late 40s by this time— I said to Mark, can we try again? Can we try one more time? Because I think I just need to try Dr. Shehata's Killer Cells Protocol. Needed to try it. So we decided to give it another go. And at this time, because my age was 47, I was too old to be treated in a UK clinic. So we looked, looked abroad for a clinic, and we found the Gynae Clinic in Prague. So we made a consultation with Prague, and they were amazing, absolutely amazing. Richard, our He was our— sorry, I'm losing my words. I'll just take a little drink. No, no, it's very, very an emotional journey. And when we're going back and when we are looking at freeing our mind to help other people by opening up and expressing ourselves, we are taking ourselves back to that pain. We are opening up that pain and opening up these scars, your post-traumatic stress. But by doing this and helping and speaking, is that Louise, what you did in your book can help so many people. So that's why I'm very grateful to you for even going and taking us on that journey. Well, Richard, our travel coordinator, he was brilliant, and we've seen the doctors out there. So everything had to be coincided, if you like, it all had to be synchronized. Dr. Shaharta's killer cells protocol and the IVF protocol from the clinic in Guyana, and obviously because of my age and my husband's situation, it was going to be a donor, so I had a donor egg and donor sperm, but it all had to be synchronized, so it was quite difficult to get it all together, if you like. Yeah, but we done it, and yeah, after the treatment in Prague, we flew home on the 5th day after the 5 days. We stayed there for 5 days And we came home and I'd done a pregnancy test on the 8th day, which is a bit early, but I just needed to know. I needed to know. I'd done one of them pregnancy tests that, um, 4 days early, if you like, and it came up positive. And from then I was terrified, absolutely petrified. That's all the post-traumatic stress, everything, like thinking I was— is this truly going to happen? Am I going to get my miracle? Yeah, yeah. And I was on, um, I was, uh, on the killer cells protocol, the, um, medication from Dr. Shahata, and all the IVF drugs. And I was absolutely petrified, this pregnancy. And I must have done a pregnancy test every day for, for the first 3 months of the pregnancy, just to make sure that the line was still there. And the line was getting stronger and stronger. You were still suffering, even going through that, with post-traumatic stress syndrome. Mentally, you were— every day you woke up, every hour, every hour of this pregnancy, going through Is it going to be taken away? So you had all these scars, emotions, anxieties, all fighting and battling with you at the same time, being told try to relax to get through. So, so yes, it's completely understandable why I was, I was absolutely terrified. I was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. I wasn't sleeping very well. I didn't enjoy the pregnancy at all because I was so terrified. I was suffering so much anxiety. I'd get up in the morning and check, you know, check the toilet and make sure there was no blood. I'd do a pregnancy test. I think I'd done a pregnancy test every day, every morning for the first 3 months of the pregnancy. I took time off work. I just didn't want to do anything or go anywhere. I just wanted to wrap myself up in cotton wool and not do anything. But, you know, I did have problems in the pregnancy. I did have what they call a little bit of preeclampsia later on. But in the first trimester and the second trimester, it was just anxiety. It was such a suffering. But as well, this is, this is how unlucky I was with this, with my pregnancy with William. The placenta for William was, was at the front instead of being at the back. So when I got to sort of 18, 19, 20 weeks, the midwife said, well, you should be feeling, you should be feeling the baby kicking. I said, well, I've not been feeling any kicking. She said, oh, she said, well then we'll send you to the hospital. So they sent me to the hospital for a scan and Everything was fine, but, you know, because there wasn't much movement because of the placenta being at the front, it was cushioning the kicking. So that's why I ended up in hospital quite a lot, because I couldn't feel the movement of the baby, which was slightly unlucky because, you know, like Midwife said, most placentas are at the back and not the front. So that was a little bit unlucky. So having these, um, getting there, so did you have— go full term, or did you have William earlier? Um, well, I went for a scan at 32 weeks, and they said there wasn't much water in the amniotic sac. Yeah. And so they kept me in hospital to keep an eye on me because my blood pressure was high. So they kept me in hospital. Anyway, I was released after 3 days and they— oh dear, what happened then? Sorry. No, that's fine. So obviously it's quite a chance to get through there. So How many weeks was you when you actually were bag packed ready to go in? I had, um, I had a planned cesarean at 37 weeks. He was born at 37 weeks. Wow. Yeah. So we're going to lift the, uh, viewer up now to— you have made it to 37 weeks and your bag is packed and you're going in and you're gonna have your little boy in your arms. Yeah. So everything went according, straight in, and, uh, and there he was, placed in your arms, in Mark. Yeah. I tell you what, when he came out, he didn't cry for a little while, and I thought, oh my God, is he all right? Is he all right? And he was. And no one heard me scream. Um, he was fine. And he was only tiny, he was 4 pounds and 15 ounces, he was a tiny little thing. But, um, he didn't need any special care. They tested and tested, tested him and he was absolutely fine. Um, so yeah, he was, um, he was a miracle. It really was a miracle. You are a mum, you know, you now have the joys of going to school, skipping and everything off and doing all that. And obviously William giving you all this love And obviously for him, when he's older, he will understand the reality of what his parents went through to have him. And on that, um, having this joy and this success and, you know, having a successful pregnancy at 40 after all that heartbreak and trauma, you decided to write the book then, did you? Um, when William was about 2. Can you just read us a little short thing and just tell us a little bit about that. Yes, I'll read you a little bit about the book. I wanted to help other women that are going through recurrent— well, other women that have miscarried or lost a baby or suffering from recurrent pregnancy loss. I just really want to help, so I've written the book and I'll read you a little bit from the book. Yeah, which part should I read? This is the story of how, after 18 miscarriages and years of heartache and despair, I finally achieved my overwhelming, overwhelming desire to become a mother. I make no claim to offer any medical advice regarding repeat miscarriages only to show what worked for me. If you have been unable to carry a baby to full term, my dearest wish now is that the same treatment will work for you too. And then it, it goes on to a little bit about my family and where I was brought up, and then it goes into Let me go to this book, Baby Dreams. While Louise is finding a small chapter to read to the listeners today, it's available on Amazon and other sites, which Louise will say at the end of this. Um, when we finish the show, Louise will be back on later on, um, this year because there'll be lots of questions and answers. And for this show, um, part 1 and 2, for people to absorb, please use this time. Um, and if you have any questions that, you know, are psychological teams, any mental health teams, please speak, free your mind, even to a stranger, open it up and help yourself heal. And if you can find a want, a reason to why this is happening, I do hope that my listeners in this extremely highly sensitive positive show and what Louise has been through and been able to finally have a mother. I do hope for any of the listeners out there that if there is hope— and we must always have hope— we— if you have that power in you to have it, to have hope. And if you decide to remain childless, that's not wrong either. It's what's right for you. So Louise will be reading this small part of this show, um, and then shortly after the show will close on that, leaving, um, yourselves to absorb this highly sensitive interview, part 1 and part 2, and the courageousness of Louise Warnford and her husband Mark, and to the wonderful William. So on that point, Louise, we're just going to quickly brief onto that, and then unfortunately, um, we could talk for hours and hours. What we're— I'm going to do is allow the listeners to have questions, and then we'll come back onto a show to answer those questions that people send in. We'll look at it. So as you said, you're not qualified to do that, but there's teams there, mental health. What we want is to free your mind. And I'm so, so proud of you, Louise, for coming on to womensradiostation.com to free your mind with LKJ. I do hope by this unlocking of this conversation that we've had together has helped in that. Thank you, and I'm sure it will. I'm sure my story and my book will help many, many people. Can I just read this little bit? Yes, of course. Yes. Yeah, so this is chapter 10, and it goes on to say, how many miscarriages does it take before medical professionals accept that this must be due to something other than just bad luck. 18, it would seem. After years of treatment at St Mary's Hospital in Paddington, still no one could tell me why I wasn't to carry a baby to full term, why I wasn't able to carry a baby to full term, even though after my last miscarriage I managed to get the fetus tested in an attempt to establish why it didn't survive. The results were inconclusive, and I, I don't even know the sex of the baby. In fact, I don't know the sex of any of my lost babies. Sometimes I think this is a blessing, but other times I wonder if it might have helped my grieving process to know, and even perhaps to have given them a name. Looking back, it seems shocking that ultimately it was left to me to try to find out the reasons why my repeat miscarriages Even though after the last one I had given up on ever having a child, I knew that I would never be able to rest until the cause of my miscarriages were established. So it was back to research. Reading Is Your Body Baby Friendly? by Dr. Alan Beer changed everything for me because it was this book that led me to Dr. Shehata and it was because of him that I was finally able to have a baby of my own. I still have this book with all the underlining and notes I've made in the margins, which remind me of the impact the words had on me at the time. Not that I need reminding. The effect of seeing my own experiences in print was so powerful, it was almost overwhelming. Here was somebody telling me that I was not very unlucky, hysterical, or crazy. I was in fact right. This book is not an easy read on both a technical and emotional level, but this didn't matter at all. I was no longer scared, just determined. I think I would have ploughed my way through a tomb of astrophysics if I'd thought it would provide me with the answers I'd so desperately needed. Although a number of different causes of infertility and repeat miscarriage are covered comprehensively in Is Your Body Baby Friendly? It's the section dealing with the natural killer cells that I kept coming back to. I was convinced that these cells were the reason why I had not been able to carry a baby to full term. Now all I needed was to have this confirmed. At the time, I was under the care of Dr. Leslie Ragan at St. Mary's Hospital in London, but her policy was not to test levels of NK cells, so I had to look elsewhere. Further research showed there were a couple of obstetricians/gynaecologists in the UK at the time who specialised in this area. I chose Dr. Hassan Jihata, whose clinic was in London. That's Chapter 10 of, uh, of my book, which goes into me doing my research on killer cells and trying to find the reason why I had all these miscarriages. So for the listener, Louise, could you just clarify where they can get this book, please? Is Your Body Baby Friendly? You can get this book from Amazon. Google Books, um, Walmart, Barnes Noble, um, I think they do sell it in Waterstones as well, and any good book, uh, retail outlet will sell the book. Any, any good, um, and any, um, after coming on to Free Your Mind with LKJ, Let's Talk About It. Can you just tell the viewers a lasting, uh, comment for them? I know we've asked them to, you know, on behalf of us and at Women's Radio Station, we are honored to have had you here. Is there anything you would like to say, which you will be the last thing message on this to end the show, Louise, on your experience and for people if they wanted to free their mind. Miracles can and do happen. Please don't give up hope. Don't give up hope. Miracles do happen. Yes. Well, Louise, as I said, thank you for being a guest on this show over these two parts and joining in a conversation to help in with mental health, anxiety, PSC. There's so many things that we've covered in here, and it will be my pleasure to welcome you back on the show when we've allowed time for people's questions to come through. And if there is anything that we can answer, to bring you on, and also to constantly keep you in, in touch with yourself and also need to see on, um, William's progress. But for that, I'm afraid, everybody, that is the end of our show today. Thank you, Louise, and goodbye. Thank you, Lady K. Thank you.
