Free Your Mind With LKJc – Louise Warneford, Miscarriage Part I

Good morning and welcome to my show, Free youe Mind. Let's talk about it with lkj. Today's show will be aired in two parts. Today my guest is Louise Warnford, an author of Baby Dreams. Louise has embarked on a journey of IVF and after 18 unexplained miscarriages, was finally able to carry a baby full term at the age of 48. Her little boy William is now five years of age. Louise felt an overwhelming gratitude to those that had made William's birth possible. She knew that without Dr. Hassan Shahata's help, a leading UK gynaecologist and obstetrician, William would not be here today. Louise visited Dr. Shahata for diagnosis and successful treatment of a problem with her body's natural killer cells and the expert facility service provided by the doctors at Gynem Clinic in Prague. Without this diagnosis, Louise would have still remained childless. Today, Louise's book takes you on a journey where her body and mind were subject to continuous grief loss, her body physically being tortured by the joy of finding out that she was pregnant and to the despair of miscarriages, some which went into their second trimester. Today, Louise wakes up every morning to the joy of William and the laughter he expels as he skips along the path holding his mummy's hand to school. William is totally unaware of the precious gift of life he has brought to Louise and and her husband. Louise shares her journey with you all today on the power of love, her love and dedication to her husband, who's held her hand firmly throughout the years of trying to succeed with ivf. Good morning, Louise. It's my absolute pleasure to have you join us at Women's radio station this morning and allow our listeners to hear your journey to becoming parents. You can find womenradiostation.com across all social networks. Please feel free to leave any comments or questions you may have that we can address in part two of this very intensive show on miscarriage. I'd like to address the audience this morning that this is a highly sensitive show and. And please listen with caution as this could trigger some listeners own personal grief. However, I do hope after listening to Louise that it gives you a glimmer of hope, a hope to all childless parents, other than the adoption route and any other paths you may seek in your own journey to become parents. So good morning, Louise. Good morning, Lady Kay. And thank you so much for inviting me onto your fabulous show. It's my pleasure. Thank you. Yes, I am Louise Walnut and I am the author of Baby Dreams. I wrote Baby Dreams in the hope to help, to help others fight in the same or similar battle, to give inspiration and knowledge to say that that miracles can and do happen. Baby Dreams is a story of hope for anyone who has suffered miscarriage or repeated pregnancy loss. I would like to share with you this story of how after 18 miscarriages and years of heartache and despair, I finally achieved my overwhelming desire become a mother. Sorry I'm getting emotional, but yeah, please feel free with all our listeners and ourselves, even myself, having suffered miscarriages, also giving birth to a child at 27 weeks myself. So we're here as you are and great strength that it takes even to be able to voice your inner emotions. So for us, you know, it would be, it is right to expect you to, you know, feel this emotion because it is an emotion and a painful path that had crossed your own path, the same as myself and many of the other listeners out here. So please, you know, at your own time and space, you know, we're all here and for other people, even to how to speak this, as I've said, you know, we're all ready to hear your story, but in your own time. Thank you. Yes, yes, Well, I suffered 80 miscarriages through many years. I finally had a child at the age of 48, William. And yes, it was a very long, hard and sometimes very dark journey. To be honest, my emotions were affected massively due to the repeated miscarriages I was constantly having. You know, I just can't explain the grief and despair I felt with, with every miscarriage that I suffered. No, no, of course, because miscarriage is never easy. You know, there are a lot of viewers, you know, on tv, lots of people walking, as we are today, that have been affected by miscarriage, whether it be or a molar pregnancy, an ectopic pregnancy. And obviously with the help of family and friends and health professionals, we do hope this umbrella of support will help and it is painful. Just to clarify for yourself to my own personal journey to. As I stated earlier, you know, I lost my own child at 27 weeks and to have a funeral over 24 weeks was allowed before 24 weeks, obviously you can't because they're classed as a fetus. My own self destruction through that in that not only did I lose the child, I lost the right to become a mother again because I had to have hysterectomy, my ovaries removed and I'd suffered an ectopic pregnancy prior to her. And I was registered at the Chaucer Clinic in London for the Molar pregnancy. So. And you wonder, you know, why? And it plays all these tricks on your mind. But for myself, not only was I hit with that when I came home from losing my child and having a full hysterectomy, my ovaries removed, it was very, very painful. My brother came to visit me and then was killed in a car accident after leaving. So my own mental health suffered and downward spiral. So, you know, when we touch on people, everybody's grief is different and you question your mind. And who can you talk about it with, Louise? Who can you express that? Like you're saying initially, where do we go? Do people then direct their loss and their pain about yourself and for your partner? And sometimes, you know, men are forgotten about in these issues. They just think, they tend to direct it just to us. But at the same time, in a relationship with, we've become angry because it's the loss and the grief taken onto themselves. So, like for yourself, how old was you, Louise, on your first pregnancy? 31. Nearly 32. Yes, because what happened is I met my husband, Mark, and we were both serving in the Royal Air Force together, RAF Browse Norton here in Oxfordshire. And I know people say, you know, they don't believe in love at first sight, but I certainly do, because when I met Mark, I just knew that he was the right one for me. Anyway, we got together and at the time I had some very personal things going on in my life. My mum was suffering from terminal cancer, so we didn't actually get together at that point because I was looking after my mum. However, when I did meet up with him again and we got together and we were in a relationship with each other, I did chat to him about becoming a mother. I made my feelings known that I really wanted to become a mother one day. And he, unfortunately, he had a vasectomy when his youngest daughter, Evie had been born. So that maybe itself gave issues straight away as wanting to be a mother, then thinking you love this man, this man who has waited for you and your love, seeing the sort of person that he had fallen in love with himself, and you nursing your mother, obviously with terminal cancer. Again, another subject that most of viewers can understand relate to. And again, if anybody's read my own book, the Broken Girl in the Red Shoes, we'll see that I lost my own mother to cancer too. And obviously when you have that, you know, there's a time of grief affects us mentally with going through. So how wonderful for him to have known when you work together and met in the raf, that this Was the person he wanted. He had a child before the relationships didn't work, but found you and was willing to wait. And then when you're doing that as a natural discussion, do you want children? How many children do you want, etc. Then openly told you, I've had a vasectomy. And then obviously with having a child, you know, he felt he only wanted the one child to go on, not expecting his first relationship to change. And this to happen, which are passing us with divorce, etc. Does change. You know, we believe this person is. Is the one there for us. And, you know, different circumstances affect us and they're different subjects. Which other issues that we can speak on at great lengths in this. So for yourself is the open and honesty to think, you know, for yourself at that point, Louise, when Mark said to you, I've had a vasectomy, how did you feel with the word vasectomy being spoken to, thinking, I want to be a mom, Is this going to happen? Can this change? What can I do? A lot of people think vasectomies can be reversed. So for yourself, was it a case of, no, this is fine? Was this your immediate thing? No, this is fine, Mark, we can get it changed. We can do this. Or did you feel at the first point that, gosh, I can't have any children because of this? Was this how you felt? I felt crushed. To be fair, I did felt quite crushed because Mark, at first, when I first broached the subject with him, he didn't want any more children. He was happy with the children that he'd already got me and Evie. And I can understand that they're beautiful girls and, you know, they've always been beautiful girls. They're very kind, very considerate. But it hurt seeing Mark as a father to two young girls. And they were then, they're grown up now, but they were young at the time. And seeing him as a father and the way he interacted, he was such a good father. He was a brilliant father. And it just hurt me to see that and to think that I was never going to be able to have children with this, with this man. And it crushed me. And it got to the point and the crushing that that felt was a decision that was one that you wouldn't have to take lightly, would be the choice and the choice of love and that power of love. Do you then say, I don't want to continues because I want to be a mother first and foremost, or do I want this relationship with these children? What we have, can we build on this, is there a way? Is there a change? Is there something possible? Because he said he didn't want to have children, was happy with that, but did he have the right to deny you the right to become a mother? And obviously this conversation you then went on into great depths. Yes, I mean, I did try. I tried for a good few months to be happy with what I got, because I love Mark desperately, I really do, and I still do. And I know I will love him to the end of my days. And at the time, it really, really hurt me because I did have to say to him, look, I'm sorry, but if you are not willing to look at any fertility alternatives for us to be able to have a child together, we all have to go our separate ways. And we did. And I was crushed. I was utterly, utterly devastated. I didn't show it at work, I didn't show it on the outside. I just kept it all in. And it only let a couple of people know how death devastated I was one with my sister and the other one, a very good friend of mine. Yeah. So if we go back, if you don't mind just a little bit, you know, to take you back, there'll be in this one. On that is. So Mark, then, has agreed to become a father with yourself. Well, and understood his own heart and his own life, was that he didn't want to lose you. He. He wanted you to be together with the girls and didn't have that right to take that and wanted to try with you. So having a vasectomy, if you could explain a little bit about that to the listeners, because can you reverse a vasectomy? Is it possible to do this? How do you go about this? If somebody is in your position currently at the moment saying, my partner has agreed for me to become pregnant and for us to bring a child in, but what stage do we go? What was the first step in going with your partner to do and seek the reversal of vasectomy that would then allow him to, you know, help you get pregnant, you know, in the natural way, rather than explaining, you know, in full detail on that, is so that he would be able to father a child again. So did you make an appointment with the doctor or. Yes, we made an appointment with the doctor who referred us to the fertility clinic. We made an appointment with the specialist at the specialist reproduction specialist at the fertility clinic here in Oxford. Yes, we went to see him. Brilliant guy. Really, really nice guy. And he explained that because of the way Mark's vasectomy was done, when he first had it done, the chances of a reversal were very, very slim because they took too much of the tube away when they gave Mark him his vasectomy. So the chance of reversal would be very, very slim in his case. Right. Okay. So just for the views, if I read out the technical side of vasectomy. A vasectomy, also known as the male sterilization, works by preventing sperm from the testes, the male sex glands that produce and store sperm reaching the semen that's ejaculated during orgasm. This is achieved by cutting or blocking the tubes that carry sperm from the testes to the penis. A vasectomy is usually considered to be permanent form of contraception because it's not always possible to reverse the procedure. If you are considering having a vasectomy, you should bear this in mind and think very carefully before making your decision. Reversing a vasectomy involves rejoining the sperm carrying tubes that were cut or blocked during your vasectomy. So regarding the vasectomy with Mark, where you were saying they cut too much, it then made it impossible for Mark to be able to father a child because they could not reverse the vasectomy. Yes. You know, the doctor was of the opinion that for him to retry to reverse the vasectomy, one, there was no guarantee it would work, and two, because they'd taken too much of the tube away. So what his recommendation was that for me to use my own eggs because I was young enough. My own eggs then. And donor semen. Yeah, because it is actually estimated that the success rate of a vasectomy reversal is 75%. If you've had your vasectomy reversal in three years, up to 55% after three to eight years, between 40% and 45% after nine years to 14 years, 30% after 15 to 19 years, and less than 10% after. After 20 years. These figures are based on a number of couples who successfully have had a baby after a man had a vasectomy reversal. So that's where those figures come from. But unfortunately for Mark, those figures or that percentage wasn't able to him because obviously when he had his vasectomy, as you said earlier, the tubes were cut. So for yourself, now, being young, your eggs were still fertile and be able to go down that way is why you went on to. You would have the donor egg, wouldn't you, on behalf of Mark? Well, it was. It's my. I was using my eggs at the time, but donut. Donor semen. Yes, sorry. That would then come on. So for Mark, as Well as showing the strength of his love for you through that is understandably knowing that his vasectomy could not be reversed, that he was still going to find anything in his power to enable you to try to have your child together. Because irrespective of it not being his sperm, to be able to do that. The donor sperm coming, this was Mark, he was the father and would work with yourself and bring this child up as yourselves with which, again, can add pressure to people thinking how they're going to do this. How's it going to work? Is it not? And opens a Pandora's box. And these are other subjects that we will in the second part of our show. Obviously, this is based, Louise, on two parts, because it's such a varied amount of information in your book to explain to the viewers why we're having over two parts show to get everything out into. Obviously, again, this part being. We started with a vasectomy, trying to show people how they go, what can they do? Can you get vasectomy reversal on the nhs, which unfortunately, due to the strain on the NHS at the moment, vasectomy reversal is not usually available. It is possible to have a vasectomy reversal carried out privately, but again, it can cost thousands of pounds. And the problem with that is the procedure of the success rates are not very high and there's no actual agreement that, you know, guarantee that the fertility will return. So that's a bigger, you know, thing to go through. So you've just gone through one emotional journey together a on the decision of becoming parents to then Mark saying he'd had a vasectomy, then to go and say, okay, we'll go and we'll get reversal. For Mark to be told, we cannot do this. Then for yourself is, you know, right, Louise, we're going to go this way. So that journey is what he was done with the IVF procedure, wasn't it? Yeah. First of all, it was the IUI procedure. Can you repeat that? IUI procedure. The recommended IUI procedure is intrauterine insemination. So it's using donor sperm. Right, okay, lovely. And what they do is they. Donor insemination is carried out when sperm completely absent, which in Mark's case it would have been, or if they carry a genetic disorder. Donors are carefully screened and matched to the physical characteristics of the patient. Using a fine catheter. Intrauterine insemination for the female partner is ready to ovulate by scanning. They scan the ovaries and ensure you're ready to ovulate. So that means when the. When your uterus is going to release one of the eggs, they will then insert a fine catheter and insert the semen into the woman's uterus. And that's iui, basically. It's a very low invasive sort of treatment for fertility treatment. And that was what was recommended to me first, when we first started fertility treatment. Yes. And may I ask for the listeners out there, what, some. Approximately. I mean, you're going back a few years now. So if somebody is listening to that and thinking, oh, I didn't know you could do that. How much would they be looking at that first stage? At the first stage for iui, I'm going back to quite a few years now. It was £750 for one cycle of IUI. Right, okay, lovely. Which obviously would, you know, that was going back at least 20 years ago now, isn't it? Yes, yeah. In my early 30s. Yes, yes, yes. If you look at the current figure to say. But that was the current figure 20 years ago. So they're probably looking at anywhere from £1,200 up. That is something we will look at and get the exact costing for. For the first initial stage. So in our second show regarding this, we'll be able to give some nice, clear information when people are questioning and answering against the show, how much would this be, that we can then find those answers out to help them and some clinics that, you know, are available that do this. Yes. You may be entitled to it on the nhs, because that is the first line of fertility treatment. That's what they will, you know, try first. I mean, we, Mark and I was never entitled to any NHS help with our fertility problems because Real Class is already having two children within the family network, which we did. We had May and Evie, my stepdaughters, who I love very much. So we were never entitled to any help through the government, through any kind of IVF treatment. However, there is grants that the government will give to people suffering from infertility. Ok, yes. While you're having. I'll just have a look while, you know, while you continuously. Regarding the grants for infertility treatment to see if there's something currently, at the moment, I can actually grant, you know, for them. But what we've got on a fertility network in UK funding your fertility treatment, we'd love to be able to help people who are affected by the postcode lottery or who don't qualify for NHS funding. But as a charity, they receive no guaranteed funding, so. So they're not in a position to offer Any financial support to people who are having treatment. But what they're saying are there are different clinical websites on there. That's just one that I've had a look at. So there's a list of stuff that we can read out and put out on our second show, Louise, regarding those. So I'll get a list together in yourself for, you know, NHS funding, et cetera, what's on there, you know, to what they can get, if they are, you know, able for this grant. But for yourself, you then, with your partner, husband Mark, have gone through your first stage and paid this money and to come through. Did you get a positive pregnancy test on that one? Not on the first one, no. But I did on the second one, yes. Is it. Is it usual to get a failed pregnancy on a first cycle of this course of treatment? I don't think it's usual, no. I mean, some people can be very lucky. Yeah, I suppose it can be. I just say I was unlucky with that one because every other IUI attempt was successful. And you had a total of 18 of those, didn't you? Well, I had. With IUI, I had nine and the rest were IVF. And then there was. And then there was donor IVF as well. As my age got older, as I was going through the miscarriage years and my age got older and I kept miscarrying. Miscarrying, miscarrying. The specialist doctor, the specialist fertility doctor would advise me of the next stages to try something different. So I had eight rounds of iui, Seven resulted in a positive pregnancy test, but unfortunately I miscarried every single one. Okay. God. And then I went to see the doctor. My age is getting against me now because we had to save up for the treatment. So we couldn't go every month or once every other month or, you know, the IUI treatment. We probably go once every six months. And then you save again, you know, when that pregnancy didn't work out and you miscarried, you save again and go again. But they do say the Fiddlers Clinic I was under did say that after a miscarriage, you do need to give your body a rest as well, so you need to give yourself at least three months, three months rest before you try again. So at that point on, obviously, you know, you had the failed negative test to begin with, and then to get that first result and coming through thinking, yes, I'm pregnant. Yeah, pregnant. And, you know, the joy that you felt, yes, I'm going to be a mum. I'm. I'm there. And this is going to happen. And when you get that first test and the positive test and with the doctors, how do they address it in that psychosis? Obviously, very. How many weeks were you when you found out that your test was positive? On the first one. Well, the first one they say to, to take a pregnancy test after two weeks. So I would have been two weeks. But obviously they take it from your last period. So you would have been. They class it as a month, if you like, pregnant. So I always done my pregnancy test a little bit earlier was a little bit naughty because I was always so eager to see whether it was positive, but it was positive and I was just absolutely over the moon. I just, I was on cloud now and I could not believe that all my dreams have come to true. You know, I was, I was in a relationship with this amazing man and I was going to become a mother as well. You know, I was absolutely. Yes. I could imagine at that time, at four weeks pregnant, your newly implanted embryo would have been very tiny, actually. It's only about 0.04 inches long, actually. The size of a poppy seed. That's right, yes. Yeah. So at four weeks, you're there, you've got this, your baby's there. It's, you know, four weeks, they're growing in and obviously your body is beginning to form a placenta and an animatic and I can never say that word, so I do apologize to all the listeners. Anamonotic sac amniotic. I am dyslexic, so sometimes I read things and can't get them out. So my apologies. He says that symptoms like abdominal pressure and tender breasts may appear and cluster of cells will soon become your baby's burrow in your uterine lining. You may also spot some implantation bleeding which is coming on. So at this point, you know, it can be confusing that first month because pregnancy is on average 40 weeks long. And it's actually measured on the first day of your last menstrual period, as you said. But you may not have ovulated until about two weeks ago. So technically you could be considered four weeks along, as you were saying. So that said, you got to that point, you know, we're doing it and. Yeah. Another question is, you know, while we're going, your. Your baby, this poppy seed actually does have a heartbeat because a baby's heartbeat can be detected by trans vaginal ultrasound as early as three to four weeks after conception, or five to six weeks on the first day of menstrual period. So the early embryonic Heartbeat is often very fast. It's about 160 to 180 beats per minute, which is twice as fast as a baby. So there's your baby. So as much, you know, for people, this is in it. These are four weeks, your precious baby is in it that you've been, you know, going along to get. And it's got a little heartbeat and everything like that. So at this point, you're four weeks and ultimately feeling very, very excited about this. Oh, absolutely, yeah. I was absolutely on Clyde now. I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe my luck that I was pregnant and all my dreams were going to come true. You know, as a visualizing the pram, I was going to get the nursery, what was going to decorate the nursery in, you know, baby names. You know, everything was going through my mind. I was going to become a mother and I was just so, so happy about it. You know, I just couldn't believe how lucky I was after everything that I'd gone through so far to get to this point. Yes. Because your baby's there now. Baby's brain and your spinal cord have begun to form. The heart begins to form, the arms and legs, leg buds start appearing. So where it's going to grow. And your baby's now an embryo which is of, you know, almost 14 inch long. You know, so it's coming up, you know, and this is it, you know, this is your baby. You're in your first trimester, you know, the early part of it with a four week, four week trimester of the baby on there. So, you know, everything going on. Did you find because of the situation with IVF that you was more careful in what you were doing because of the journey we're taking to become pregnant and they was pregnant, you know, would you, for instance, would you be frightened to lift the hoover, lift the kettle or, you know, because some people say, you know, the old wivester, oh, you're only pregnant, but for yourself. We don't understand it. This is your precious cargo. Yeah, absolutely. I was terrified to lift, I was terrified to go shopping for a loaf of bread. I've got to be honest, I just wanted to wrap myself up in cottle wool and, you know, and, and not really do a lot, to be honest. I was very, very. What's the word I'm looking for? Protective. Protective over, over my pregnancy. And how was your partner once you found out you was pregnant and obviously the joy and like that. Was he as a. Protective of you as well? Yes, yeah, he was, he was, he's been my rock throughout this journey. He really has. And I will never know, never know how to thank him for being there for me, for, you know, going for most of my scans with me, for me being not only my husband but my best friend as well. You know, he, he's been there for me throughout all of this. He's been brilliant. Obviously, for the viewers will understand that you have suffered 18 miscarriages. So the reason I'm just going on this first one is just to clarify and break it down to that first instance of becoming pregnant. When did you find out that you was miscarrying your four week old baby? Well, I'd gone for a scan at the clinic at six weeks and I'd also gone for a scan at the clinic at 8 weeks and also at 10 weeks and everything was fine. I remember the 8 week scan. I'll always remember it. Yes, baby was fine. They could see the baby's heartbeat. And I walked out of that clinic on cloud nine because I thought, I'm eight weeks, I haven't got long now before I'm gonna be through the first trimester. 10 weeks. I went back to the clinic and everything was fine. And after that 10 week, the clinic said to me, louise, what we do now is we refer you back to your normal hospital for your 12 week scan. So I thought, right, okay, so I refer back to Swindon hospital for me 12 week scan. Mark, my husband was working away at the time. We didn't expect, expect anything to be wrong, you know, because the six week, the eight week, the ten week scan was all fine and I'm sat in the waiting room with, with a load of other pregnant ladies. I feel still feeling on cloud nine, had no idea anything was wrong and went in for the scan. And no one, no one can prepare you for them words. No one. I'm sorry, Mrs. Warnford, but we can't find the heartbeat. My baby had died and I didn't know. So I was told that I can either wait for the baby to come out naturally, wait for my body to reject the baby naturally, or I could take the abortion pill as it was then, or I could go and have an operation dc. So I decided that I was going to have the D and C because I would not have been able to see the baby come out naturally. It's pretty traumatic. So that happened on quite a number of my miscarriages. I had that quite a few times, which was very distressing. Each and every time was really distressing. Yeah, yeah. It's not disappointment. I Felt, you know, it's not like you're burning the dinner that you've created, you slaved over all day or the village fate being cancelled due to rain. It was just. It actually crushed me, it really did. It is for the viewers that may not know what a DC is, it's a brief surgical procedure in the cervix which is dilated and a special instrument is used to scrape the uterine lining, obviously, then removing any evidence of the baby and it coming through from that. It removes the tissue in the uterus during or after miscarriage or abortion, or to remove small pieces of placenta after childbirth and this prevents infection or heavy bleeding. So for the viewers that want to know, what Louise had to go through by choosing this procedure was to ensure that everything was clear so her womb wasn't being infected. That was her decision for doing the D and C. So you've, you've had this and then to actually, how do you prepare your mind mentally for this, the loss, the sorrow, etc coming through from that. And obviously then had you told people you was pregnant before or was you waiting for the 12 week scan? No, I was a bit naive really, you know, with the first pregnancy I did tell people I was pregnant because I just felt so excited and so proud to be pregnant and yeah, I did, I was quite naive. But I've got my own views on the 12 week wait anyway, so we can talk about that. But yeah, I feel the 12 week wait, if, you know, if somebody has gone through a miscarriage and they're pregnant and they haven't told anybody, where's your support network? You know, where's the people that you want to support you? You know, they don't know you're pregnant, so how can they? I just don't agree with that 12 week wait. To be, to be fair, to be able to tell friends and family that you're pregnant, I can understand. Why do you feel? Because when we look at the baby at four weeks, when you're pregnant, most people are now six weeks pregnant. That being six weeks, you come back and say, I'm pregnant. You've got that confirmed pregnancy test, this, this poppy seed, you know, as we've said, you know, it's growing, it's heartbeat etc. As I've explained earlier, they're going over, is there? So people are there. So if you are taking extra precautions so you're not getting the wild or you're only pregnant, you know, which you'll get at 12 weeks or like that. Your journey was also the Carriage for your own child to come in. Very, very delicate and going through as many people as when we carry a child, when people do say these words, oh, you're only pregnant, you know, you are carrying your precious cargo gift of life that's in there. And if you feel that you don't want to hoover that because you're pregnant, well, don't do it. I'm afraid in the thing, don't do this because if you feel anxious, anxieties or heightened pressure in any way to do that, you know, there's many people that couldn't. This is why some pregnancies and people are on bed rest for six to eight weeks or if they have suffered with miscarriages, I think they can put a stitch or something, I'm not sure completely for one of the gynecologists out there or in a technical terms or people listening could advise and help on some, some of these issues, you know, which they were trying to help on there. But as you said, that 12 week wait. But obviously by telling people in this first instance, on your first miscarriage, you had support there to get through. Yes, yes. My family, my friends were very, very supportive, very supportive. And you know, all the doctors and the nurses said to me, you know, you've just been unlucky this time. You've just really been very unlucky. And I thought, okay, been unlucky, I will try again. Okay. So, yep. So I, well, we tried again and I got positive result. I was very, very guarded about telling people that I was pregnant on this time. I didn't want anybody to know just in case I did miscarry. And I did. I miscarried again this time a little bit earlier this time I was about six weeks pregnant and I was sat on the toilet and yep, blood was traumatic. I can imagine. I can imagine for you again to be in there and you know, this is the third, third attempt at it. Second, another miscarriage at six weeks. Yeah. And then obviously the traumas are losing another child, because they are. When people think when you give birth, that's the child that's come through. But for us, when you get that positive test, that's your child, that's it. Every one of them was a life that had started. Well, as soon as that baby has a heartbeat and the embryo has that heartbeat, you are there, they're alive. That's a life inside of you. So you're going to have to grieve for that life. So again, so you what you, you know, you've lost again and Your mind, the trauma, trying to carry on, you know, and the questions start coming in your mind of why, why? And they're told, so, you know, try again, try again. So for yourself now, you know, the. What was the longest period in those 18 miscarriages, was the longest stage of being pregnant, if you don't mind me asking. I got to 14 weeks once. Yeah, I got to 14 weeks and that was, that was another one. Whereas I got to a scan because after I'd had so many miscarriages, after I had the third miscarriage, I was then referred to St Mary's Clinic in London and the clinic there, and the doctors themselves are absolutely brilliant, they are marvellous and I do appreciate what they do. But, yeah, I got to 14 weeks pregnant and because I was high risk of miscarriage, they were scanning me on a regular occurrence. So I went for a 14 week scan on this particular occasion and again, they couldn't find the heartbeat. And I think the whole hospital must have heard me scream. Oh, gosh. So it was very traumatic. Very traumatic. Yeah, yeah. And at this point, Louise, you know, I can feel the emotion even as, you know, we're talking through here, you can actually feel the depth of that because, you know, that scream for anybody listening, I can actually visualize myself being somebody in that waiting room and I could hear that scream coming out. You know, how much more. Why, why? Why is this happening? And it was, it was like, what have I done? Why is this happening to me? What is wrong with me? Why can't I carry a baby to full term? What is wrong with this? It's got to be. I can't go through this many miscarriages and nothing be wrong with me. There's got to be something wrong. St. Mary's Clinic done all the tests and they couldn't find anything that was wrong with me. They'd done all the miscarriage checks and they just could not find the reasons why I kept miscarrying. And it got to the stage where I was. I just hated to hear the words, oh, you're just unlucky, better luck next time. They just upset me so much. I can't explain, you know, the words that I need to say to her, how much them words explain upset me, you know, better look next time, or you're just unlucky. And was this by the nurses or was you actually admitted in? Obviously, being 14 weeks spent, you would have perhaps had to go on to. Which would have been the old labour ward in the maternity ward before. So would you. You was put on award. I know when I had to give birth, you know, to my own child that I lost was so traumatic. And remember them weaving you up to the delivery suite to go through this and losing a. Presented there, you know, with a child, her arms, her legs, everything were all there and thinking like, no heart, you know, why. Why have I had to go through. And my midwife said to me, you know, it's best if you have a look because it will help you. You know, you get a cold cot and everything, they go in and then to arrange the funeral for her. And obviously with the undertakers and everything, the people, you know, if it is over the undertakers that don't charge or anything like that. But what I found very distressing was after going through that, I thought perhaps I'd be put in a private room or something where you'd be able to have this. But I was put back on to a ward where people still had their babies. So you heard this crying and there's no disrespect to any listener of this show that my resentment was towards them. My resentment was to questions I needed answered. Why am I put. I've just lost my child. I am laying there and, you know, on the level. And people are having their babies, which I was pleased for every one of those births because I didn't want anybody to suffer what I went through, that emotional strain and heartache and the pain. And when people came to visit me on the ward and you could see their faces, what do I say? What do I do? Well, what can you say? What. What can anybody say to me? You know, there wasn't anything. But I do feel, in my instance, and that's why I'm coming back to you on this question is that should there not be. And I don't know if this happened to you being so earlier on that like, for me, we should have gone into a private room or somewhere where you should be able to grieve. I know the wards aren't big. I understand that in private. But to be in which they believe psychologically would make you overcome this grief and turns that when you see, you know, with the life going on, the last thing I wanted to see with my baby in its cold cot, which was a baby, and also for the people that just given their birth, were also worried to look at you, they couldn't look at you. I didn't know what to say to you because there you have your baby in a cold call and there's this in their court crying and it was all emotional Stuff. So I know when I had an ectopic pregnancy previous to that, Louise, that I had that I had my operation float film tube taken. You know, I had that done. I was still put on a labor ward for that with babies coming on, you know, you know, regarding that and. And you know, this is where I have that mental block with the anxiety and that. That I apologize to the views that when I come to think of stuff like I get a mental block on. Was it postnatal? Prenatal. I can't even to this day with my grief and my emotions register. Was it post? Because it was so traumatic and having that. And when I had a molar pregnancy, that's where you had it. You know, obviously my body thinks that it's pregnant and a much more in depth on molar. I don't want to get into that on this one. I'm going to bring the molar pregnancies into the other one. But, you know, for myself with yourself at that point, is that was you put on the same ward or did you have a different place that you would go, knowing you've been told in the clinic, you know, the baby has died, you know, at 14 weeks I was put on to an early pregnancy unit, which is a ward where people go to have elective abortions or, you know, people like me, the baby has died in utero and the baby needs to be removed. But also there are people there have an elective. Elective abortions. Now, I don't hold any views on abortion. However, you know, it must take. It must be an awful decision for somebody to make that decision. But to be put on a ward with somebody that is having an elective abortion because they just don't want to have the child is absolutely devastating. You know, there was a woman and because it was so busy, there was two beds in a cubicle, so it was just a curtain, like a room divider separating me and this other lady at that time. Now, I do know now that you can take the abortion pill at home and wait for your body to reject it naturally, wait for the abortion pill to work. However, at that time, you'd have. You take the abortion pill and you stay in hospital until you have to change that. No. So obviously NHS psychologists have actually understood what we've gone through, that this doesn't help, which they believed that did it. It didn't. So obviously now, you know, that does separate the people to going on there. But sorry, yeah, unfortunately, you know, with our show now, we will be coming to a close very shortly. And as I said, it's such a large topic to go on, so we're just going to break down Ready? Which we've touched on this subject as the opening show on this, regarding miscarriage and that where you suffered the 18 and introduced you to a small part of the vasectomy side, which is why you went down ivf and that we're at that point where against everything you tried, you have had immense mental torture, physically, mentally, from that to being that after 18 attempts, you are still childless. Had you given up hope at that point of having another child? Or did you look at adoption? Or was adoption something you wasn't going to go for? No, adoption wasn't something that. I mean, I would have tried anything, you know, any system that would have allowed me to have the child that I craved for. However, Mark didn't want to go down the route of adoption. He just wanted to. For us to try. He wanted to give up. Basically, at this point, he thought we'd had enough and he wanted to give up. And I've got to admit, I did agree with him. I did, you know, after the 18th miscarriage, I said, I can't take any more, I can't do this. However, I did want to know what was wrong with me. I needed to know why I had all these miscarriages. I just needed to know the answer to that. So for the viewers listening at this point, over the years have gone, stopped the starts, the physical, the emotional side that Louise has faced, is that this point you've agreed? That's it, there's no more. And now all you needed for clarification for your mind, so for when you reach 60, etc. That you knew it wasn't new, what was, you know, what made this happen, wasn't you. So at that point is when you heard something about killer cells? Yes, I read a book called Is yous Body baby friendly? By Dr. Alan E Beer. He's an American doctor. I read his book and it was a light bulb moment for me. You know, all the case studies in this book was the same. You know, these women miscarrying was the same way that was I was miscarrying. So I decided to find a doctor in the UK that could test me for these killer cells. And yes, I found Dr. Hassan Shahata in Epsom. Oh, my God, what a brilliant doctor he is. He was lovely. And he tested me for killer cells and he said, yes, you have a high number of killer cells. And that's basically what was the problem with me. So killer Cells is just read this out to you. We can go actually into the killer cells. We're going to cover that on our next part. But basically these killer cells were causing the miscarriages. It was, you know, obviously killing you, carrying these cells that were normally there to kill off cancer, etc. But basically was causing these miscarriages. And so now you had your answer of why these 18 miscarriages happened. And at that point, as you left, you felt you had your answer. Then what happened as you left that as you were going out the door, Dr. Shahata said to me, said, Louise, he said, if you would like to try again, my killer cells protocol has a 95% success rate and was just like a ding. Oh, okay. Right. So I came home, I spoke to my husband about us trying again and there was a lot of umm and ahs and he, he really didn't want to see me or put us as a couple through that trauma again. He. He wanted our lives to move on, which I can completely understand, but I just had to investigate every avenue. I just could not say to myself, okay, well, yes, Dr. Charter has told me that, but I'm still not going to try again. I couldn't do that getting your answer to say I wanted an answer, could I? Now you've been given this thing, can I? Can I not? Well, now I've got to just try. Jessa wants to say he has a 95% success rate. Will I do this or will I not? So at that point, Louise, for our viewers who have been listening to the show, the first part for now, obviously as we're getting into there and obviously highly sensitive subjects on there, but we're only halfway through this journey. So our next journey with yourself, which I hope people we have to take, there'll be some questions and answers coming through. But when you listen to the second part of this show, which will be on the following week, the show will run in the mornings, 8am till 8pm, Monday to Friday from the week commencing the 20th of September. So part two will commence on the 27th of September, where you can continue to actually find out from Louise how at the age of 48, she finally was able to have her son William. And to help you come through on that journey and if you so wish, and we'll have all the other answer. But today, for Me, Free youe Mind. Well, KJ and Louise Wilmood, thank you very much for being on part of our show today.