Get Booked – April Kirkwood Working My Way Back To Me

Hello, I'm Hazel, and welcome to today's Get Booked radio show here in our studio in Covent Garden, supporting women's emotional well-being, opening discussions, and offering support via the incredible writers and listeners out there. Throughout my shows, I speak to some pretty amazing writers and public speakers, and today is no exception. I have April Kirkwood on the phone. Hello! Hello, it's so wonderful to finally be here. I know it's been a struggle for us. Obviously, there's— this is a message that needs to be heard, and the energies might be just giving us a run for our money, but we are here and ready to share and grow and heal together. Women to women, that's what this is about. We're not going to give up. We're not. We're going to keep on going. We're going to work through, uh, the chaos and kind of— we're going to chat to you about some of your public speaking and And you've written a couple of books, and one of the main ones I want to talk about is Working My Way Back to Me. Would you like to give our listeners a bit of an overview of what this book is about and why you decided to write this book? Yes, Working My Way Back to Me is a universal message of so many of, of us women that come to a stage in our lives that we get up one morning and it's though the world is crashing in emotionally, although outside on the outside, it may look like we're okay, but we're far from okay. And we don't know how we got to where we are. And it's almost like we're living a dream. And we said, "How did— I didn't want this. I didn't start out, or I thought I wanted this, and now I'm a new human being, or I've grown, and my life has not grown." or I realize there is something wrong and I am not living the life that I had intended as a young woman, as a child, as someone who had the tools or thought she had the tools and never did. And there's a group of us that are ready and willing to take the steps to understand at least why we are standing where we are. I don't think sometimes the people get afraid when I say that. Oh, well, I'm afraid to move. I'm afraid to leave my husband. I'm afraid to leave my job. Some of the things that are most penetrating and life-changing come from the inside out. And sometimes you can do a total change and not make a relative move. So I want women to know out there that this is not a catastrophic life event that has to send your world crumbling down. But this starts on the inside out. And the beautiful thing about this for all of us is I noticed that when we start from the inside out and not backwards, the changes just happen. And we wake up 1 or 2 years later and go, wow, am I a different person? It's about understanding ourselves, isn't it? Yeah, and because we women— and I'm a therapist— and they'll say, "Well, I'm not ready to tell my mother off who was abusive to me," or "I'm not ready to leave my husband," or "I'm not ready to quit and move across the country." It doesn't have to be. In fact, true growth and healing usually is not cataclysmic like that. It took us a lifetime to get where we are. And this is a movement within ourselves uniting and being open with the new awareness and kind of waking up like, "Wow, is that why I did that? Is that why that I drove that man out of my life? Is that why he left? Is that why love never worked for me?" And when you have that aha moment, that's where the healing comes in. My story talks about my steps from point zero where I lived a life for the wrong reasons, for the wrong people, and then I had to rebuild. And that— this is the rebuilding of a woman who found her way back to— I like my life. I like who I am. I didn't really have to change a lot. The change came from me. And then doors opened. Now I wonder, are you a fan of mindfulness? Because that kind of leads into that, just kind of understanding and taking a step back. I am about mindfulness. In fact, mindfulness, mindfulness is the first step in trauma healing. And I actually believe that, uh, I'm also have taken classes and do EMDR. We are all traumatized. And a trauma for— and someone will say, "Well, I never witnessed anyone dying," or, "I never was in, you know, a car crash." Trauma is anything that in the state that you are at that moment, you could be a 5-year-old, a 10-year-old, a 30-year-old, that you can't handle. That kind of knocks you off your psychological block. And you, you don't even have to remember if you have been traumatized. So we are walking in a haze. But the first step to healing trauma and going back and finding who you are, even if you do not exactly know what it is, is mindfulness. Whether it is mindfully walking, focusing on that, mindfully— I do a lot of breathing. I have my happy place. And I believe that we are— I don't even believe anymore all of these psychological personality disorders that they say once you have a personality disorder you can never get well. I believe we are making— Right. Well, and I believe we're making monumental changes and that's not exactly true anymore. The face of psychology and clinical work is making great strides. You don't always have to be bipolar. In fact, a lot of bipolar diagnosis could be— and I'm not, you know, diagnosing people— but could be incorrect. That you are just a victim of trauma, that you have closed off certain parts of yourself, and this is how you adapt. We're all trying. The body is miraculous, Hazel. We all have within our being, our bodies, our minds, and struggle to survive no matter what. And, and so if it's splintering off, if it's forgetting things, if it's— but what happens is it keeps coming back until you get to the root and, and you dispensatize. But it's about being overwhelmed, isn't it? I mean, this is why mindfulness is good. When, when something happens to you, you are overwhelmed with emotions, with thoughts. It's all jumbled up. And that's why, I guess, when you have to work your way back to something and you have to kind of deconstruct what happened to you and work your way back to a place where you feel more comfortable— well, yeah. And the human body only does 3 things. It either goes into flight, which it runs, which we could be by forgetting it. It fights, you become angry, hostile, you know, that person who goes, why did I get so angry. Mm-hmm. Person just said something slight to me at the mall, at the shopping center. Why did I go off like that? Why can't I stand the voice of my coworker? What is in that voice? There is something that is resonating within your soul's work, within your mind's consciousness, that is tipping you off. Instead of using these as Oh my God, this is terrible. Why don't we say, aha, here's a message. That bothers me. Now let's take it further. Why does that bother me? And I ask that, why does that, I don't know. Why does that really bother me? I don't know. Why does that really bother me? Oh, I'm beginning to see it reminds me of. And then we can work further and further. And you don't need a psychologist, you don't need another class, you don't— you just need a willingness and openness to say, I want to know more about me. The most important job any, any woman has is to know, or any human or man, is to know themselves. It's interesting that you say that because I did actually suffer with fight or flight after a particular incident a few years ago. So I know quite a bit about it and the fear of not understanding why you're reacting in a way and you can't control it in that particular moment in time, it is quite debilitating. But then now that I understand it more and I can kind of— I've come to terms with it, and it means that I can manage it a bit more. And it means that, um, just understanding yourself is such a powerful tool. What? Yeah, and you see cues like, okay, now this is a trigger for me. It's almost like an addict or an alcoholic. When I go into this bar and smell this vodka, it's a trigger. So what am I going to do about it? When I see this man, when I fall for the bad guy— oh, there's that bad guy that, oh, you know, I'm in love and I only met him 5 minutes ago. Hmm, could be a trigger of something else. I turn the corner and I wanted to freeze. You know, you fight, you flight, or you freeze. And if you're freezing and, and you have issues of going out and meeting new people or finding ways to be all that you know inside— I really believe I'm also a spiritual counselor, and I create a plan for people mentally, spiritually, because I do not and I could not ever negate the ability of a soul, the possibility of reincarnation, the possibility of people you're meeting that have issues with you, that you are brought together to work it out. Like, some people go, I love this person, but we fight all the time. What's the fight about? What, what's really going on? Why was this person brought? You know, on a spiritual perspective, everyone that you're brought and is brought into your space— this conversation right here was meant to be, was meant to happen for our highest good. Wow. And if we can flip, if we can flip our mindset around and say, okay, like this conversation with you and I, I got up this morning and I said, I am going to make this happen no matter what. And, and it was still a conflict, and now I'm proud of myself because I stayed with it. So the lesson for me with you was stick with it. You'll get it. Conflict's part of life. Technology doesn't always work. Don't give up. But April, also sometimes it's just accepting what actually happens to us and finding a way to move on. Now what I'm going to do is we're going to very quickly just go off to a quick break. We'll be back in a few minutes, and I want to talk about about some of these relationships that have kind of formed this opinion of yourself. So, okay, thank you. Certainly, I'm here waiting. Brilliant. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan, and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being, and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of 3, and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hello, my name is Ingrid Marsh on Women's Radio Station, and coming soon is the Radical Wellbeing Show. To help support women's wellbeing, each show I share the airwaves with ordinary women like me and you doing extraordinary things. Women who have overcome huge obstacles in their lives who are now here with me to empower you. On the Radical Wellbeing Show, you'll be inspired to kick away the roadblocks and live your life to the fullest. If you're ready to get radical about your wellbeing, then this is the show for you. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover, and mental health advocate, and you can listen to my show Get Booked here at Women's Women's Radio Station, daily at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well-being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com. Join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Do you want to be a doula? Would you like to support families through pregnancy, birth, and the postnatal Do you have qualities of compassion, listening, caring, and empowering? At Nurturing Birth, we offer approved doula training courses across the UK which are facilitated by an award-winning doula. Here you will learn more about the support you can offer, explore the doula role, and think about how to set up your business. No need for previous qualifications. Find out more at nurturingbirth.co.uk. You're listening to Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women, and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter at Women's Radio Station— that's Women's Radio STN— or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to the second section of today's Get Booked. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and I have April Kirkwood joining me on today's show. Now, uh, we have been talking about a lot about chaos and trying to find meaning and trying to understand ourselves in the first section. And the second section, I'd like to talk a little bit more about Working My Way Back to Me and your, your relationships that have formed who you are, mistakes you've made, how you've overcome them, the mistakes you may still be making. I know I still am. I am too. It's a lifetime process. And it's funny, spiritually, the, you know, I, and I'm warning everybody, because the more insight you have, the more issues you get, because something new pops up. It's like almost like God says, okay, you learned that one, now I'm going to take you to the next step. Now you're in high school, you know, you're not in kindergarten anymore, emotionally, spiritually. And now let's boost you up and raise your energy a little bit more. So if you can, it, and sometimes you have a conflict and it's too heartbreaking, but if you can detach and just say, you know, there's a lot for me here. There's a lot. There's a lot going on, and I'm happy. Now, when you're going through that, that's very difficult, and sometimes we need— and I'm saying this for people who are in crisis right now— it's okay to step away and be quiet. My only suggestion is don't do anything crazy, you know, in the meantime, in your heartache. Because even though it's okay, there is a resonance that no matter what you do, there is a reaction. There is a cost. And I try to avoid making as many mistakes. So if you are in crisis right now, and when you read my book you'll see there were times I was in crisis, sometimes it's better just to sit and pause and wait for the storm. Feelings are just feelings. Feelings do not stay. You know, one moment you're happy and we're laughing, and then the equipment doesn't work and we're frustrated and we're upset, and then it's hap— we're happy again, and then it's a break and we quiet down. That's how life is. And sometimes if you're going through a dark time in your life, try, try— and I know it's so difficult for me as well— is to let it ride a little bit to see if it's going to pass. A good example of this Oh, sorry, I was just gonna say a good example of this is that when you write that angry email, you've got to sleep on it. Exactly. Or when you want to— or when you're— when someone hurts your feelings. And that's again with the mindfulness, that whole thing of finding out why you are— because most people, and I really believe this, don't get up in the morning trying to make your life miserable. They've just got their stuff. Yeah. And their stuff's bumping into your stuff. And some people are not nice, not— but they're hurting. Basically, there's only two emotions in the world: love and fear. If it's not coming from a loving place, it's coming from a fear. A boss that is a real jerk and he's rude and condescending, actually that's a fear base. For some reason, something might have happened. Now, I'm not— I am not excusing his behavior to be abusive in the workplace. Place. But sometimes you just have to step back and let them be in that place. Yeah. And, and, and you know what, I use a little trick. I always try to send people loving messages, especially if they're in a bad mood. I'll just like whisper in my mind, um, I love you, John, in my mind. I don't even— and I send, and I just move on because I don't want to become entangled with it, but I don't want to I don't want to hurt them either, and I want to help them. I mean, we're all lightworkers. So that's just rising above it. Yeah, it's rising above it. And if you can't, that's okay too. Then just step aside and say, I'm willing to see this differently. What am I not seeing? What am I really not seeing here? And if I'm too emotionally involved, that's fine too. You're human, we're all flawed. If we weren't flawed, we wouldn't be here. We're here to learn lessons. How dull would life be if we were perfect all the time? I don't know. I don't— I'd like to talk to Beyoncé and see, or Jennifer Lopez. And I'm using that, you know, facetiously, because even those people who we admire, or your royalty— we've seen the stories of so many internal struggles. Those people that we think live a champagne life— no, no, exactly, it's a front. And sometimes these fronts are forced upon them, and sometimes they choose to put up these fronts. But you know, we all have our own equivalent of putting up a front, whether we're in the public eye or not. Yeah, and, and I even I think the more honest you can be with yourself, that's the best place to start, and that will spill over into hopefully one or two. Now, we're all— also, I want to remind you, I'm trying to give you Psych 101. We have boundaries. You don't spill your stuff to everyone, but spill it to yourself. Be your own best friend. Love yourself, and then it will spill over to other people. Start with you. You can't fix your husband. You can't fix your husband. I couldn't fix my husband, April. That's why he's my ex-husband. Exactly. And you know what? That was not your job. And you know, especially women, we're caretakers. We want to fix everything. I'll do it. I'll be— I'm the same way. I'll do it. I'll just do it myself. You know, you're not doing it the way I want it. I'll do it myself. And 2 things happen. Number 1, we exhaust ourselves. We get angry. We're pissed off because we're, we're so overextended. And number 2, we're robbing them of the chance to learn and do it. And you know, you're like taking over their, their ability for self-esteem, for growth. We do that with children all the time and we over-helicopter them. They really grow up that they think Gee, mom must not think I can do this myself. And then they have— and then we go, I gave them everything, why do they have low self-esteem issues? Because you didn't give them a chance to learn the skills because you love them so much. Do you know what, paradoxically, um, I, I've got two children and I don't helicopter parent them, and I get judged for people saying, oh, what, you're leaving them to their own devices? I'm like, I'm I'm just not completely smothering them. And again, no. And you know, we're— we've created a generation of people that don't know how to survive. And I was almost— I still struggle with that. My mother, in the story, my mother did everything for me, and my mother had an addiction problem, and I wanted to save her. And because she loved me so much and I saw the frailty in her, I took on the hero and I could not save her. And I spent my whole life trying to fit into what I thought she wanted without ever thinking what I wanted. And so the parent-child paradox is so powerful. And if listeners don't know where to begin, Go back there and sit with it and just get— if you're not calm though, this is not going to work. You need to find that, you know, there's so many movies that women go out and they go on an adventure by themselves, and it's really not the adventure, it's finding themselves. And every person out there, I will reiterate again, the most important relationship you'll ever have is with yourself. And then you can be a good parent and not helicopter, or be happy with your choices, or be happy to be flexible. To grow as you grow. You need to like yourself. If you— if we like ourselves, we are, you know, we are the most important person. Brilliant. I'm so flawed. Sometimes I see myself and I just like— now I see myself in my children and I'm like, oh my God, oh, what was I thinking back then? I see that all the time. It's, it's like when my— was I like that? Yeah, it's, um, it's like when my mum comes to visit and she sees my son doing something and I go, oh God, isn't he so annoying? She goes, Hazel, you do exactly the same thing. You are like two peas in a pod. I was like, well, it's still annoying. And is that bad? You know, and it's not. And that's also the dynamic of family, you know. I forgive my family and, and they forgive me and We are definitely not the most functional family, but we don't give up on each other. And we— the most wonderful thing you can say is, I'm sorry, I thought when I did that it was the right thing, but obviously, you know, and I'll just say, you know, I did the best I could with what I had. Those were the tools I had. If you, you know, I was eating a soup with a fork at that time emotionally. And unless it's minestrone, that's just not going to work. No, it's not. And it's just like— and it will— it— but, you know, I think also we take ourselves so seriously. Yeah. That, like, sometimes I see these things and I just go, this is life. This is life. There is death, there is illness, there is purpose, there are mistakes. And what can I make good out of it? And what was I here to learn? What am I here to learn today? Do you know what's really interesting? You said then about just when you get it wrong, you just admit it and you apologize and you say to your family or your family say to you, do you know what? I've messed up so much in life. My friends have messed up, my family's messed up, my kids have messed up. And sometimes, I mean, one of the things I teach my children is if you do something wrong, don't try and blame somebody else 'cause you'll just get in trouble or it'll just annoy me even more. Just say, sorry, I messed up. Don't even know why I did it, but honestly I did it. Accept you did it. If you did, apologize and move on. Right. And even with little children in grade school, you'll hear them, the teacher didn't teach it to me, or I didn't hear, or they did that to me, or they took my pencil. Just say, you know, if you took the pencil, it's okay. You know, if you weren't listening to the lesson at that, like, they'll say sometimes because I was a teacher for years. Oh, they didn't say that. Well, we did say it, but they weren't listening. But that's okay. Take responsibility. I guess I wasn't listening. I guess I didn't hear it. I guess I really— and how often are we not hearing? Exactly. And it's skills to learn. It's not that they didn't say it, it's just that you missed it or whatever. And there's sometimes there's a portion blame— I hate the word blame anyway. Um, we— do you know what, we've already got to the second half of today's show. We're going to go off for our next set of ads and then We're going to be talking about— are you ready for this, April? The book Men. Oh man, oh God, I have a— I, I don't think, I don't think one segment's enough time, but I'll give it a shot. Well, here goes. Welcome to the Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station is all about diversity, from opinions, career, ethnicity education, and most importantly, women's well-being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? Do you wish you could save more money, or are you hoping you have enough for retirement. You are not alone. Many women want to be smarter with their cash but just don't know where to start. At empowerandenrich.org, you will find a host of options to help you take charge of your finances and learn how to put your money to work for you in an easy, affordable way. Get in touch with me at empowerandenrich.org and let's change your future together. Do you want to be a doula? Would you like to support families through pregnancy, birth, and the postnatal period? Do you have qualities of compassion, listening, caring, and empowering? At Nurturing Birth, we offer approved doula training courses across the UK which are facilitated by an award-winning doula. Here you will learn more about the support you can offer, explore the doula role, and think about how to set up your business. No need for previous qualifications. Find out more at nurturingbirth.co.uk. Hi, I'm Carolyn Van Beers. Please join me for a brand new show here on Women's Radio Station. It's Mother's Hour. If like me, you're a mum juggling far too many balls and dropping most of them, this is definitely the show for you. We'll examine the highs and lows of motherhood and make sure you laugh out loud as we take on this challenging role together. With spoonfuls of advice, incredible stories, it will be a refreshing, honest, and funny look at being a mum. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness, or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help. Visit turn2us.org.uk. Welcome to the Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station can give voice to your brand with a wide range of sponsorship opportunities, including individual programs. We can tailor your experience for you. For more information on how you can sponsor a show, go to womensradiostation.com. Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Welcome back to the second half of today's Get Booked show with me, Hazel Butterfield, and our guest April Kirkwood. We are now talking about— duh duh duh— men. Men, you gotta love them. And we do love them. That's the funny thing. We want to hate them, but we love them. And then, you know, I go crazy with women. When they're not in a relationship, they want one. When they're in a relationship, they're not sure they want it. The most important lessons we'll ever learn are in intimacy. And we still need it no matter what technology brings or life brings. We will always need intimacy and we will always need a partner. And it comes to a point where we have to realize and start to think what kind of man— men or woman do we want? You know, I always I have always fallen too quickly for people, and based on a fantasy. And it gets very convoluted very quickly if you don't keep your feet on the ground. But love is beautiful, and it's, it's miraculous. And, and it's like a drug, the second of it. Well, it is a drug. It's a— it changes your body chemistry. And there are people, you know, who live for that rush. You know, you always say the chemical cocktail lasts 24 to 32 months, is when biologically we are brought to each other to procreate. And then after that, it, it, it wanes. And so some people just like that first rush, and that's why most relationships— a lot of with young people, "Oh, I went with them just for 2 years." When I say that, I went, "Oh yeah, so that's that's when the rush left. Yeah, you know, that's when the adrenaline— but relationships are work and they need to be watered. A lot of men treat relationships like property. Okay, I married you, I bought, you know, I said I love you, we had the wedding, I'm gonna put you here like, like a nice beautiful piece of property and just let you increase in value. But you know, it takes a lot of, you know, you have to water up, you gotta water a flower, you know, you have to, you can't We just expect something to grow on its own, and I think the most important two questions we'll ever have to answer is, "Where am I going?" which has to do with your career, and, "Who am I taking with me?" And if you're taking with you someone who is not on the same page spiritually, physically, and has the same kind of goals, then you're going to set yourself up to make it harder than it has to be. But when you fall in love, you're not thinking that. You're not thinking those things. Well, also, and some people are addicted to love. Again, that's the 2-year thing. They're addicted to falling in love, not necessarily the person itself. It's the feeling. And when that feeling goes, the rush goes, then there's nothing left. And, you know, maybe— no, there is not a connection. But, and men are, are hunters. So they love to hunt. I mean, that's the hunt. Can I get them? Can I have them? Maybe you're talking about men in Ohio. There's a lot more lazier men in the UK. They'll just sit in a bar and be like, dude, you want a drink? No? Great. All right, bye. I'll find out what— I'll be at a bar tomorrow night teaching men about love. Oh yeah, you're leaving late. You're in Ohio at the moment. You're leaving to come to, to the UK to do a bit of a tour, aren't you? Yeah, so I'll be like, I'm gonna take an interest inventory on the men there and see, and then we'll have to get together again and we'll compare notes. Um, but a relation— and then I also believe in the spiritual relationship, that people are drawn together for actually two reasons. Psychologically, they say they're drawn together to work on their unhealed issues, and spiritually Some people are brought, brought together for other reasons— past lives, reincarnations, karma, destiny— but it's also to teach each other lessons. So if you could look at that partner that's driving you crazy, once again go inside and say, what is he trying to teach me? Or what am I here to teach him? And how can I teach him without nagging him and being a helicopter person and nagging him? Nagging does no good. Now, you still have to say your yays and nays. I will not accept that, you know, but you can't come home drunk. But you shouldn't have to nag somebody. They should not be doing stuff that makes you want to nag them. Otherwise, you know, right, you shouldn't have to. And in, in that world, that's the way it would be. But remember, they're human too.— and they might have their trauma and they might have their issues that they are— and I think, I mean, many men that I have worked with are more unaware than women. Okay, I'm not tooting women. If we're gonna, if we're gonna go down this road, I mean, let's be honest, you were in a relationship for 20 years where you were pretty much at his beck and call, and you know, you, you knew this the second that he said, 'Hey hun, are you about?' You like, internally you knew it was wrong, but you couldn't stop yourself. No, I was lost in myself. I didn't even know why I was doing this. All I was driven was by my ego. I will make him love me. I will make him change. It was a challenge. I will, and I will prove to myself that I'm good enough for I don't have to prove to myself that I'm good enough for him. I'm already good enough. Are we, are we happy to tell the listeners who this was? Yeah. So, so you basically, you were a fan of Frankie Valli's back from the age of a very young age, and then as soon as you hit 16, you became more than a fan, didn't you? Yes. And I, um, and you know, and I, I have, and when I talk about this at the university, I have delved into another layer of this relationship that's even more profound that's not in this book, that is a carry-on. But I, in my mind, I was from such a violent childhood where there was domestic violence, fighting, my mother was taking pills, a lot of fistfights, black and blue eyes, calls to the police station. That I was so afraid that I put everything onto a fantasy just to help me not get— to help me get through my childhood. Understandable. Now, what I should have done, what I should have done, but I'm a child. What I should have done was said, that was good for then, but now I'm a grown-up. But I wasn't a grown-up. Because I was emotionally stuck back there. So I used whatever I could, and kids will use whatever they can to survive. They're resilient coping mechanisms. Yeah, right. And so I needed for years that fantasy of Frankie Valli. I needed that. He was— became— and I just learned this way after I wrote the book. That's, that's another thing. Life's lessons do not— they just don't pop in, you know. They— you're always evolving. Because I thought, why did I love Frankie Valli? What was it about him? Now, on a soul level, it could be something else too. It could be a karmic relationship. It could— but on this grounded in psychology and basic common sense, I needed that person, that fantasy, that image in my bedroom listening to my music to keep me safe from the violence. But he did not know that. No, he didn't. But he did give you the attention. He gave you a lifestyle. He kind of popped in and out just when you needed a life, right? And he made me feel good about myself, you know. I— it made— in a way that I could not make myself feel good at the time. And that's why we need, as women, to forgive ourselves for who we have loved and what we have done for love. You gave him a lot of power, didn't you? Really, if you think about it, if he was in charge of your sanity and your fantasy and your happiness. Yes, of course. I mean, he was— when my mother was getting her head knocked through the wall, I went in my room and put on Big Girls Don't Cry, and I shut my eyes and I fell asleep. And hopefully, like a child, the next morning it would all be better. And of course it wasn't, but as children we are resilient and we get up every morning and go, "This is going to be a good day." And then it wasn't. And then I went back. And then it wasn't. And I still feel a deep sense, you know, I notice— and that's another thing, when you become aware of your issues, you know, when something goes wrong in my life, that's the song, that's the music I put on. Well, that's also the name of your first book as well. Yeah, and that's the music I put on. I mean, it's amazing, and it's, it's done so cunningly, subconsciously. I don't even realize it until I'm aware. Like, I'll walk away and go, oh, I was going through— I'm going through a really rough time right now, and I put on this music. The music soothes me. Now, that doesn't have to be right or wrong. If you could handle it. But as a teenager with a megastar, with, you know, like say somebody— I, I don't know who the stars are today, Justin Bieber or somebody— little girls have reasons. Also, it's, it, you know, a lot of us, uh, when we have our children, we are, um, rehearsing what we're going to be like when we grow up. So there's so many dynamics in doing what you're doing, and I guess The message I would like to say is don't beat yourself up over it because you did what you had to do to get through the day. And so— and why are you picking these men who never love you? We're doing what we— we're doing the best we can with what we have. There's a security though, April, in, in, in picking these men that we know don't necessarily matter as much because then there isn't as much fear for it failing. Oh, they're never gonna— they're never gonna hurt me because they're never gonna come. Mm-hmm. That's why women have affairs with married men. They— because they really, on some deep level, know they're already unavailable. So they can't reject you because they've never accepted you, really. I mean, you're playing this dance that they do, and you're meeting at hotels or having drinks or making love somewhere, but on the level, they're always going home to their wife and this, or their life, or their work, or their children, or their career. And they're, you know, you don't have to be with an unavailable man that just happens to be legally married. There's many unavailable people. There are those— someone will say, well, I don't just date married men. No, you date other people who are unavailable. Yeah, do you know what, it's on so many different levels. Um, you know, we've just raced through that last section. We're going to go over to our last, um, section of ads, and we'll be back in a couple of minutes for our final section of Get Booked. Thank you. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan, and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of 3 and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health, everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hello, my name is Ingrid Marsh on Women's Radio Station, and coming soon is the Radical Wellbeing To help support women's wellbeing, each show I share the airwaves with ordinary women like me and you doing extraordinary things. Women who've overcome huge obstacles in their lives who are now here with me to empower you. On the Radical Wellbeing Show, you'll be inspired to kick away the roadblocks and live your life to the fullest. If you're ready to get radical about your wellbeing, then this is the show for you. Hi, I'm Hazel Butterfield, a blogger, book lover, and mental health advocate. And you can listen to my show, Get Booked, here at Women's Radio Station daily at 5 AM and 5 PM. Throughout my shows, we'll talk about the books I've read, new releases, chat to authors, publishers, and book enthusiasts, all with the theme and aim of supporting women's emotional well-being. If you have a book to tell us about, get in touch at presenters@womensradiostation.com. Join me on my show and share my love of books and writing. Do you want to be a doula? Would you like to support families through pregnancy, birth, and the postnatal period? Do you have qualities of compassion, listening, caring, and empowering? At Nurturing Birth, we offer approved doula training courses across the UK, which are facilitated by an award-winning doula. Here you will learn more about the support you can offer, explore the doula role, and think about how to set up your business. No need for previous qualifications Find out more at nurturingbirth.co.uk. You're listening to Women's Radio Station, supporting women's well-being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women, and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter @WomensRadioStation, that's Women's Radio S-T-N, or Facebook Women's Radio Station. To keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Welcome back to today's show of Get Booked. This is our final section. I'm chatting away to April Kirkwood. And do you know what? Even when we've been off air, I think I need to do an outtake show of the things that we talk about off air with all of my different guests because I didn't— it's different, isn't it? It's so beautiful when you can get two human beings who can reveal their strengths and their weaknesses without a judgment and share. What did you think about that? What do you think about that? Yeah, I understand. I don't get that. Let's talk about that more. This is what I want women to do and find them. They're out there. The more— and that's another— the secret about this is And it's so beautiful that the higher your energy goes, which openness, ability to see yourself, ability to forgive yourself, the more you will draw in those same types of people. Yeah. And you'll look back and go, gosh, I have a whole new set of friends. I have a whole new dialogue. I don't talk the same way to people anymore. Um, some people will leave because you will be too much for them. That's okay, because they'll, they'll come back when they're ready, or they will find a place where they are ready to evolve. And that's not your job. And we all evolve differently. Hmm. We're at different times, at different spaces. And also, there's times when you rest. And I really think that, you know, the body can only learn so much at one time. There's times where I'll read 7 books, and I'll be taking notes. And then there's times where I'll rest for 3 months, 4, 5 months, and I'll just go, I I have enough right now. I need to rest. And, and go back and rest. Unwind. Because if you get frustrated, or you're, you know, you're riled up, or you're in a twisted knot, or you've got your panties in a wad, you can't get through. Panties in a wad. I'm going to use that terminology again, and I'm going to try and use it today. When your panties are in a wad, you can't get anything done. Brilliant. But do you know what though? Anyhow, I do think what you were just saying though about, you know, how we, how we evolve and how we all evolve differently. A lot of what we were saying about fear and loneliness and mental well-being and working out who we are, sometimes we need to understand that we have moved away from somebody else and we are different. And if we don't just think, oh, I don't fit in, I don't fit in anywhere, No, it's just the people that you're hanging out with aren't necessarily right for you. Find where you do fit in, where you don't feel lonely. And that is the beauty of understanding ourselves. Well, yeah. And then that's why you'll see kids— and I keep going back to them because we all have kids and we understand it— you'll see kids in high school start going with the wrong group. Like, they'll— we'll say that, you know, oh, they were in the nicer group. But now, they did not know who they were. They were lonely. They were isolated. So, they gravitated to whoever would accept them. You have to be careful because if you are not sure where you're going, you know, life is never stagnant. You're either moving forwards or moving backwards. And you can stay in homeostasis for a little bit, but life has its way. It's— that's why the circle of life. People get old. They die. They— Be careful, and if a relationship is not working for you, step back and, and, and, and look at it. And if you have to, let it go. But in that time, also nurture yourself that you're a wonderful person. Don't settle for what you know is not good for you. Just pull back though, you know. And I, I always tell people, you don't have to just get off the phone now and go, oh, I'm getting divorced, I listen to her, she's right. I'm not saying that. I'm saying figure it out within yourself. But this is what— this is what you're referring to with the children though, in, in high school, because, you know, they're just trialing it out. I mean, well done them for going in the, the bad group and trying to figure out if that is what is for them. Or, you know, I, I hang out— I used to hang out with the goths for a bit at school, and then I go out with the trendies, and then I go out with the drama group, and I just wanted to try it all out. But I still want to be lots of different people, right? And we want to— and we are lots of different people, and that's a beautiful thing you just said. We are— there's many aspects to us. We could be the vixen, we can be the mommy, we can be the nurturer, we can be the executive. And it's finding the mix for you that works. And as you age and I'm aging, it changes. You know, you don't need that much. There's certain things in my life I'm letting go because I don't need it anymore. It doesn't work for me anymore. You don't get stuck. And same thing with marriages. I'm— sometimes marriages are done. They're done. Yep. You've learned your lesson. It's done. And we are evolving in this world today so much quicker. You know, we talked about trauma counseling, we talked about mindfulness, meditation, yoga. We are evolving quicker, which means we're going through relationships quicker. Whereas our ancestors might have stayed together 60 years to learn forgiveness, we're learning forgiveness, so we're moving on to the next. Wow, that's such a great way of looking at it. Yeah, yeah, if there's not— there's no right or wrong. I've learned, I've learned, say you're in a relationship where they cheat on you all the time. Finally, you wake up one day and learn, I deserve better. Mm-hmm. I am loved. Okay, I learned the lesson here. It's done. Not saying it's not going to be painful, especially when one wants the relationship to last and the other doesn't. But life is not always easy. Do you know what though, April? There's sometimes a little bit of a stigma attached to waking up and saying, I deserve better, even though we do. And I I 100% wholeheartedly believe that we do deserve better, especially than what some people have to put up with. But there's, there's a, there's a kind of criticism and a bit of a narcissism about people that suddenly just go, oh, you think you deserve better? Well, you know, that— so that separates you from me, who is deciding to stay in this and, and work on this relationship. And people see things so differently that they're not willing to accept other people's standpoint. Because, because you know why? You're— they think you're judging them. So if they're staying in hell, they want you to stay in hell because then that makes them feel guilty. I like— I know when I am real honest to people, it makes some people very uncomfortable because they then feel that they, they are expected to be honest and they're not ready. You know, even girls like I'm talking about my shitty relationship— excuse my language— and they're like, the other girls like, I don't know, I don't want to talk about mine, this is making me feel uncomfortable. It's really, they're not uncomfortable with you, they're uncomfortable with themselves. But yeah, there's always fear, judgment, and it comes back to fear. They're afraid of their own lives, they're afraid that they're settling. You are a reflection. They're afraid that if that you're judging them because they're judging themselves. Yeah. What is it? We will not judge each other, we'd be okay. There's that really— I was just gonna say, there's that really interesting saying that when you point at somebody, if you, if you do the pointing thing with your hand, right, fingers pointing back at you. Yes, I love that. And usually we are a reflection of each other. We're like giant mirrors walking around, and we don't want to look. I noticed even today, this is what scares me about, you know, technology, is that we don't look at each other in the eye anymore. We text, you know, we don't talk, you know, and, and we're losing that ability. And I do it too. I would rather text than talk to someone sometimes. Do you know what? It's easier. I don't have to— quicker, it's convenient, it's kind of if you say the wrong thing, you can quickly backspace, backspace, and make sure it's exactly the right thing that you wanted to say rather than saying something in the heat of the moment. And I can do LOL, just kidding, right? LOL, laugh out loud. I do that all the time. People to be offended, I'm like, oh, LOL, you know, just kidding. But I hate your guts, lol. I'm like, oh, having a shitty day, LOL. You know, I don't want them to feel guilty. I don't want, you know, any communication is key to life. Communication is everything, and we've got to keep consciously practicing it. I agree. If you don't know, one tip for communication, if you say something, you just say, did I, did you understand what I said? Because I don't, and blank, you know, I always put the pressure on myself. Maybe I didn't say it right. Yeah. You know, what do you think I said? Because maybe I— and then that takes the pressure off them because maybe they're lost, maybe they weren't listening, maybe they were thinking about what to say next. But if you really— maybe, I mean, yeah, or maybe they don't care, you know, and they were— and then all of a sudden they wake up and they're like, what, what did you say? I dozed off. I'm like, I wasn't, I wasn't really present. We need to practice presentness, and most of all with our own lives, and then it spills. It's like a beautiful waterfall. The more spirit you have in yourself, the more it spills over, and these issues become less dramatic and less catastrophic. Do you know what? We have absolutely raced through today's show. We've only got a couple of minutes left, and I'm just like, ah, We'll have to get you on again. But I just want to very quickly know, within the last— we've just got under— just over a minute left. What are your 3 tips on well-being for our listeners? Well-being is to become— find— calm down. Calm your ass down. Calm down. When you are in a state of frenzy, confusion, remorse, emotional upheaval, nothing, nothing will clarify for you. So, I don't care if it takes a day, a week, a month, or a year. Calm down. You've got time. For more difficult issues, God forbid, losing a child, losing a parent, it's not like getting a traffic light or a, you know, a violation for parking in the wrong place. Calm down. It's just— go inside, right? And go— yeah, and go inside and start to look at all of the story, of your story. Try to find the pieces and remember you are loved and you are here to learn lessons. Do not be too strong on yourself. You are loved. You know who doesn't love you? Yourself. You gotta love yourself. You know, like people say, well, God doesn't forgive me. He— in my, my perspective, God forgave you the moment you said, oh my gosh, I messed up. But we carry the guilt. And do you know what I just want to point out to everybody? And they can find out more about you, they can get your free cleansing meditation, um, practices, and find out about your therapy and your books and all the speaking events that you do on AprilKirkwood.com. Unfortunately, we have run to the end of today's interview, and thank you so much for joining me. I'm going to be in London. I'm going to be at TEDx at the, um, what is it, what is it, uh, in Sheffield? What is it? Yeah, Sheffield. Yeah, on Saturday. And I would love to meet you, and I will have books there. And please come out and let me hug you and tell you how how wonderful I think you are. Even if you don't believe it, I believe it. And maybe I will spill that energy over to you and you can begin to wake up to who you are and what you're meant to be. What a perfect ending. Thank you so much, April. I've loved chatting to you. Thank you so much, and you have a wonderful day. And call me if you need me again. I will. Someone to step in. I, I can do this. Thank you so much, April. Okay, I love you. I love you too. Wonderful day. God bless you. Bye-bye, bye-bye, doll. Welcome to Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons Live on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte, on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie May Is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's well-being and we're talking all things autism. Women, the possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Lauren Mishkon. I'm a birth doula and mum of 3, and I'm passionate about supporting women to have empowering and positive birth experiences. Please join me for my brand new show, From Tummy to Mummy, here on Women's Radio Station. Every week I'll be here with an expert guest talking about women's reproductive health. Everything fertility, pregnancy, birth, and baby related, right through to the menopause and beyond. Please join us for an informative and fun hour. Hello, my name is Ingrid Marsh on Women's Radio Station, and coming soon is the Radical Wellbeing Show to help support