Get Booked – Waleed Shah, Rock Your Ugly 210621

You are listening to Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I love doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. Sit back, let us entertain you with a different author each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires inspires them. Now this week we have the United Arab Emirates-based photographer Walid Shaar with a slightly different book, Rock Your Ugly. Now Rock Your Ugly is a raw, unfiltered look into the lives of everyday people willing to bare all and reclaim those parts of themselves that they've struggled to embrace, which I'm sure a lot of us can understand that. And Walid Shaar captures a moment in the lives of these men and women with accompanying stories that zoom in on their insecurities and what they usually hide behind, and what's normally covered with smiles and Instagram filters or clever photography. Rock Your Ugly is a middle finger to toxic beauty standards and a reclamation of power through this one simple truth: we all have things we don't like about ourselves, but why hide it when we can rock it? The pictures in this book are stunning. Stunning, and I can see why the people involved were so keen to get involved. What's encaptured is honesty, which is attractive. In fact, it's absolutely stunning. There is an outstanding beauty in sincerity. I introduce you to today's guest here for Get Booked, Waleed. Hi, thank you for joining us. Hi, Hazel, that was an incredible intro. I think that's the best one I've ever gotten. So thank you. Ah, well, you are more than welcome. Do you know what? This is one of those books where I've been reading it, I've been taking pictures of various bits and bobs and posting it on Facebook, or when there's somebody that said something quite profound on various social media, I've been saying, "Oh my God, you've got to see this too." And— That's awesome. And even this morning when I was on my dog walk, somebody turned around to me and they'd said something just about you know, how people were taking the mickey out of them looking tired because they'd not bothered putting makeup on, and that was quite a constant theme in the book, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's, um, so I have thoroughly enjoyed reading it. I definitely call it a kind of coffee table book. It's one of those ones that the— yeah, you don't, you don't have to, you don't have to read it front to back, you know what I mean? You can kind of like, you know, flip through and you don't have to, you know, you can flip through and kind of get a gist of what's going on because of the images and like, you know, the taglines, the bold taglines. And then, you know, if something catches your eye, then you can go in and dive and read that story. So yeah, it's sort of a semi-coffee table book, but you can also carry it around, you know, it's not too big that you can't, you know, fit it in a bag or something. Take it to the pub with you, especially as British, right? Now the pubs are open, we'll be sitting in there going, "And another thing, look at this book." picture, look what she's done, she looks amazing. This is what we need to be rocking. And it's— I've actually just started the next book I've started reading is Women Don't Owe You Pretty. And it's just tying in with it perfectly that, you know, as the sun is out in the UK, I gotta read that too. I gotta read that too. That sounds like it's right up my alley. Oh, it's fantastic. I'll send you a link to it. Have you heard of it yet? I haven't, no, but yeah, this is the first time, so I have now. I'll send you a link for it because it's, um, yeah, it is fantastic and it looks pretty cool as well. Um, so why don't we start by you telling us a little bit about yourself? Okay, um, so I, I, um, I don't know where to start really, but I'll try to, you know, start from, from the beginning. Strangely enough, I'm a chemical engineer by design. You know, I went to school for engineering, I worked in oil for a while, and then I started a music studio, and then I learned photography through that studio, and, you know, left the oil industry and became a full-time photographer. A natural progression. Yeah, a very normal thing to do, you know. And then, you know, I started shooting, but most of my work is commercial work, you know, I do, you know, cars and shampoos and you know, all the products, anything you can buy, like, you know, butter even or something. But every once in a while, I'll feel something and I'll tell a story about it or I'll do something about it, you know. A lot of my personal projects are very sort of society-based or challenging social norms-based and stuff like that. So I think Rock Your Ugly was sort of this natural progression for me just based on what I was feeling at the time where, you know, it was sort of a two-fold or two, I don't know what the word is really, that sort of event, there was two like major events that led to Rock Your Ugly. One was, you know, I'd gotten a bit fat myself, I gained some weight, I had an injury that didn't allow me to work out anymore, so I just kind of gave up, you know, I started putting on some weight over the years, and then it just got to a point where I was really uncomfortable with myself. And one day I took a photo of myself holding my belly, you know, shirtless, and I put it up on Instagram and I said something like, you know, everybody's got these resolutions, it's, you know, to go and work out and lose some weight. And to be honest with you, this is just what my body looks like right now. And I don't really feel like doing anything else about it. So check back in next year, see if I come up with any resolutions. And that really resonated with people, you know, and they're like, wow, man, thanks for saying that because that's kind of how we feel. There's this pressure to, you know, especially around New Year's time, is to have this resolution to go to the gym and get a gym membership and eat better and stuff like that. And a lot of people just don't feel like it. So that resonated with people. And then a few years later, my best friend passed away, which sent my mental health sort of, you know, spiraling down, and sort of to try to get out of this, you know, my friends and family said, hey, you know, why don't you just put your head down and create something, you know? So I had my notepad, you know, I look back at it every once in a while, and I had this idea, you know, 2 years ago to explore people's body insecurities. Initially, it was just about the body, So I went out and started, you know, interviewing people and shooting people, and then this project slowly evolved into not just body issues, but like mental health issues as well, and it took this whole new direction, you know, evolved into this new being where, you know, we're tying issues from childhood or early adulthood to what it's manifesting what it looks like on your body. And I think that's how Rock Your Ugly was born. And you did actually feature one of the participants in the book, was the partner of your friend that passed away. So I'm sure that must have been quite— That was rough. It was rough. Yeah, I can imagine that. Yeah. And, and, um, I get it when something, when something happens to you that is earth-shattering, when you can make something positive from it, I think that shines through and it helps other people to kind of change their mindset and focus on the positivity. Um, there was, there was a fantastic piece from, um, one of the people in the book where they said, you know, her difference, the way that she looks different is like a gift from God because it has given her the opportunity to embrace it and to storm her way through and show other people how much she's enjoying being different and help other people deal with their demons. And I think there's an incredible strength in harnessing what separates you from somebody else and showing people that it doesn't need to be a bad thing. It's something that you can own and will rock, rock your ugly. Um, even though it's not— Yeah, I think you're talking about, uh, you're talking about Kimberly, right? Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, that, yeah, that was very powerful, you know, she, and there was two, there was two people, there was Kimberly and Perel as well, you know, both lost their hair to, the word escaped me, what's the disease called? Alopecia. Alopecia, there we go, so, you know, both of them said the same thing, and I interviewed them separately, one's in the UAE, one's in Toronto, And, you know, they both said the same thing, that alopecia is a chosen disorder. You are chosen by, you know, God or whoever you believe in to have alopecia because not everybody can handle it. And it's sort of this liberating condition once you accept it and you can do great things because you look like that, you know. Well, it's quite freeing in a way. I mean, one of them was saying, you know, they don't have to— they can just walk out the house. They are ready and good to go as long as they own it. And that, you know what, You can have the most, um, what society has dictated as the most aesthetically pleasing person, but yeah, you know, some, somebody's beauty shines through every single part of them. It's, and you know, some of the most supposedly pretty people out there, um, that, that's not shining through. Yeah, totally. I mean, I, I'm actually, so right now I'm sitting in New York City. And, you know, whenever I go out here in Brooklyn, there's a lot of girls that have their heads shaved just as a style, and it's beautiful, you know? So it was very interesting for me to see after having done— having interviewed Kimberly and Carol about their alopecia, where some people are choosing this as a new, you know, sign of beauty, to shave their heads. I just thought it was just interesting to see like different societies, you know, put a stamp on what beautiful is in different ways. Well, it must be very freeing because I mean, I've got very big and very long hair and I hide behind it a lot. And it must be quite freeing to know that you cannot hide. Yeah, there's something— Yeah, I see that totally. Yeah. And I love how each story in the book has helped other people champion what's happened and to own it. And do you know what, there's some people in Rock Your Rugley that have gone through horrific things, but some of them have said, you know, without those things happening, sometimes you've kind of got to hit rock bottom and then start to rebuild yourself and appreciate who you are. And if that's not happened to you, you've not been given the opportunity to have to look deeper and appreciate yourself and accept yourself and champion who you actually are because you've been put in a position to make you, you know, force yourself to look a little bit deeper. And I also must say, your photography is absolutely fantastic. What it does in capture, like I said in the intro, every single picture is stunning. So people who pick up this book and say, oh wow, I have dermatitis, oh, I have scoliosis, look how stunning they look. And it's just encouraging people to embrace what they've got, because how dull would it be to be like everybody else? Yeah, I mean, that, that was, that was my point when taking the photographs. Like, I wanted, you know, after, after they told me their story, after I interviewed them, I wanted, I wanted these, these rock stars to feel like rock stars, like to rock whatever they've been insecure about. So it's almost like therapy., right? So when you see your, you know, when you see yourself, or when you see your— so whatever you're insecure about, uh, being beautiful in somebody else's eyes, you kind of start to accept it. You're like, actually, this is beautiful, you know, this is cool. So, so that was like exactly my point. I wanted to bring out whatever they're most insecure about, whatever they really didn't like about themselves, and make it really, really stunning. Um, and I, I hope, I hope I did justice to that idea. I think you completely did, and it's helped me as well because, you know, a lot of us have put on weight in lockdown, or we've been seeing ourselves on Zoom so much that we've gone, "Oh wow, I've got a double chin!" or "Wait a minute, I'm a little bit lopsided," or "Maybe I don't like my left side," or something like that. And we've all kind of been addressing it a little bit more, but books like this also kind of give us a little bit of a kick up the bottom in terms of, you know, if you're healthy. Do you know what, if I see somebody who is a size 12, 14 walking down the street, or absolutely any size, it doesn't make a difference, strutting themselves and just how, you know, they've got power and confidence, they are way more attractive than the size 6 person that's kind of a little bit self-conscious. Is she thin enough? You know, people that aren't so sure of themselves. Confidence is where beauty lies. It's the walk with the head up and the shoulders down, you know? Yeah, yeah. Um, now something that I'm quite intrigued by, because I'm sure you had a lot of people wanting to be a part of this project, um, tell me about the selection process. So there wasn't much of a selection process, to be honest with you. It was, it was more of, uh, you know The first few I had to convince to do because, you know, usually if you're starting a project and you don't have any references, no one's really, you know, everyone's like, I don't know what this is going to be. And obviously I didn't have a name for it and I didn't know where it's going. Obviously the book was like later, you know, so I did this as a sort of an online project first and then, you know, once I finished, I'm like, hey, this could be a book, you know. But, you know, first I had to sort of convince you know, a few people and I started with them and you can also, you can even tell who was first and who was, you know, sort of middle and last because the story started to progress to be bigger and bigger and deeper and deeper. Some stories, you know, you see like our one-liners or like a paragraph, those were the early ones, you know, but the later ones, you know, got a bit more depth and we got involved and then we cried together and all that stuff, you know. Yeah, so the first 5 or 6, you know, I had to convince, but then I remember there was this one day where I went to a party for the industry, you know, like there's all these industry folk that I know that are at the party, and I hadn't told anybody about the project outside the people I was shooting, and it was the first time I was sort of in a public space after my best friend had passed away, so I kind of, I was feeling a bit awkward, you know, and I knew that everybody knew because, you know, I told a few people, so everybody was giving me their condolences and stuff like that at this like, you know, very hip party, so just a little bit weird, but this, you know, after the condolences, they'd be like, "Yo, Walid, you know, I heard you're doing this project, it's really cool," it wasn't called Rock Your Ugly at the time, 'Oh, just the project, you know, I mean, I heard from this person and that person, well done, man, I saw a photo and I saw something that you wrote, it's, you know, it's cool, man, keep that up,' and then people started to hear about it that way, where it wasn't online, I hadn't published anything, and then people started to contact me to say, 'Hey, you know, I've got a story to tell, can I be a part of this?' And the way I approached this was I didn't have a selection process, And when somebody would call me and say, I want to be a part of this, I'd say yes right away, no questions asked. They, they, I would say, hey, please don't tell me your story now. I'll come, we'll set everything up, hit record, and then you tell me your story. I want to hear it for the first time, fresh, record it. And that's what I write about. Wow. And, and that's what happened, you know. Wow, I didn't think you'd be doing it that way. That's incredible. So it's kind of, yeah. Surprise you, but also you took pictures based on what the story was. I mean, there were some people who, they were drinking pretty much just water so they could lose weight, and you kind of incorporated that, and other people that had eating disorders, and actually, I was— I've actually read the book, or I've gone through the book again afterwards, picking up extra bits in the background of the images, especially like with the toilet roll that's got different things on the back, and there's lots of tiny little signposts as well that it's just— it definitely is one of those books that you're going to want to pick up again and again. And so that must have been quite off the cuff then, if you were hearing about their stories as you got the camera out? Yeah, that was the point. Like, I didn't want to make it complicated. It's black and white, we're not looking at color, we're just looking at the, you know, the person and their their soul and their vulnerabilities. And, you know, we sit maybe for 2 or 3 hours together and record our conversation. And then after the conversation, then I pull out my camera, and then we come up with an image together that represents what they just told me, you know, and it's always sort of like in their house, you know, well, yeah, most of the time was like in each person's house. Oh, wow. So again, it makes them feel more comfortable as well. Exactly. Makes them feel comfortable and they're in their element, yeah. Oh, I love— this is why I love what I do here at Get Booked, because you get to read these stunning books and then find out a little bit more about the process. And I'd love to know, have you got another book, another project on the cards? I don't, to be honest with you. This was— I mean, I'm not— I struggle to call myself an author, you know what I mean? This is my first one, and I've never thought about being a writer or an author. Author. You know, it's very new to me, you know, this whole process. So I'm just kind of, you know, sitting back enjoying it and seeing where this book goes. Well, this book has been released for almost a couple of months now, so it was released on the 13th of April. It's priced currently in the UK, I know it's roughly around the £22 mark, which is extremely reasonable for a photographic book, and I would like to see what the next project would be. And you know what, even if there are no words, you are still telling a story through your art, through your photography, so you are an author. And I'm sure we'll hear a lot more from you. Thank you, thank you. I mean, there's a few other projects that I've already done, they're just not in book form, so if you go to my website It's walidshah.ae, and most of my work is there. There's a section called Stories, and this is where I do the storytelling. So, Rocky Ugly was like the biggest, deepest one that became a book and everything, but there's a few others that are before and after Rocky Ugly that are sort of the same— I wouldn't say the same theme, but there's the photography behind it, there's some words behind it. That you can check out. I've actually been all over your website, I was getting quite addicted. Awesome, do you like it? Yeah, I absolutely love it. Just as a quick reminder to all our listeners, it's waleedshah.ae. And I know that you're extremely busy at the moment, and before we lose you, I've just got a couple of questions that I like to ask all of our guests here on GetBooked. So first, the first one would be 3 tips on on well-being, 3 tips that you like to engage with that help you with good mental well-being? I think, I mean, the general tips are, you know, eat well, sleep well, and exercise. That's the general sort of baseline to keep your life in check and keep your baseline, you know, in check and everything. But then there's when you hit like an anxiety point, where your brain has gone into overdrive and stuff like that, the 3 things might be something else where, for example, learn the breathing technique. I think it's 4-7-8 where you inhale for 4 counts, hold your breath for 7, and then exhale for 8. And you do that a few times to kind of get your breathing back to baseline. Another one would be to, you know, there's a, I think it's 5-4-3-2-1 where You think of 5 things you can see, this is sorry, yeah, 5 things you can see, 4 things you can touch, 3 things you can hear, 2 things you can smell, and then 1 thing you can taste. And then that kind of brings you back to baseline. And then I think the last thing when you are back to baseline is, you know, focus on the facts and think about, you know, are you anxious because of what you're feeling or because of the fact that's usually because of what you're feeling. So that, that'll kind of bring you back to baseline. I love those. I've not heard of the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 before. And I think that one is so incredibly important, especially at the moment when we're all so connected via social media and Zoom and whatnot. And although the world is opening up again, it's habits that we've learned, you know, that's what we used to stay connected when we weren't allowed to physically be connected to people. And I love the fact that you're engaging in your senses. It's quite an easy form of mindfulness that you don't necessarily need to train yourself. Yeah, it gets you grounded. It gets you back into your current physical situation, not whatever you're plugged into. Yeah, yeah, completely. I love that. And also, I think— I'm a huge book fan, and so I do think the whole process of engaging with books, whether it is on Kindle, a physical book, or Audible, it uses a different part of your brain. It kind of resets what technology tries to undo. And I, I love the idea of the element of Rock Your Ugly with the visual element, and then also the fact that you can read a story and learn something and enrich, enrich your soul because you're finding out about other people. And it is that quite a few people that you interviewed really did bring it home. Just be careful what you are saying to people. Just because somebody is thin, and don't say, 'Wow, your life must be no worries whatsoever. Wow, you can't put on any weight.' You don't know what's going on in people's lives, and this is what I think is the importance of books, and you can get it in fiction as well, it's just teaching people that you really can only see what's on the surface, and that is very often little of somebody's story, and to just be a little bit more mindful about how you react to people and what you say to people. And just before you have to kind of nip off, there was one of my favourite parts that somebody came out with, and I just want to read it out because I found this so powerful, and she says, "I'm not trying to promote—" it was a plus-size lady, she says, "I'm not trying to promote an unhealthy lifestyle. People often mistakenly think that's what plus-size activists are trying to do. Health is always the number one priority, but if you're working toward being a healthier person and are on the bigger end, it's still okay to be confident, confident regardless of whether you are diabetic, overweight, or anorexic. If you're working on your issues and you have self-love, that's amazing, that's what's important. And I thought that was just so real. That was very powerful. Yeah, that was, that was very real. Yeah. Do you have a favorite person in the book yourself on something that they've come out with? Ah, you can't ask me that. You can't ask me that. I can't, can I? No, you can't ask me that. That's like asking you to choose your favorite child, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't ask you that one. I might add in a few more of some of my favorite parts of the book then. One of them said, "We're humans, so why do we have to be skinny with big boobs and beautiful makeup? Why? Where is it written that you are beautiful because you tick the boxes? I am not a box. I am not a suitcase." I absolutely love that. And then there's another one, "It's my ugly, but I embrace it. I love it. I don't really know 'How else to explain it except that it's my body and I love it now.' And there's such power in acceptance. And this is why, again, such powerful statements within Rock Your Ugly. And another one is, she says, 'But it's part of my journey and I embrace it. I love it. If I hadn't gone through it all, I wouldn't be the person I am now. I wouldn't be that person who wants to help everyone learn to love their body and the way that it is, no matter how they got there. And so I've got so many, I could keep on going. Maybe I'll squeeze in just a couple more. And another one says, however, if you're dissatisfied with something, there's nothing wrong with changing the thing that haunts you, and it's fine to seek to improve your body. So this is something that you choose to do, and I love it that they're making it that the point that it's a choice of something that you choose to change, and you're doing it for you because you were dissatisfied and not because of what somebody else is dictating to you. And another fantastic one says, 'There is an incredible strength in accepting that those who matter don't care what you look like. Others need educating. Some Mistakes happen, but ultimately surround yourself with people who make you feel good about yourself. Now, I like it that they pointed out that mistakes happen because I know I can say the wrong things, or I know that I can misread what somebody else has said to me. There's so many powerful and profound statements in this book, and there's something I'm sure that is there for absolutely everybody to take home or earmark it, make sure that when it's on that coffee table you're making sure that people are looking through it and looking through the bits that have really made an impact on you. I could literally just sit here just reading out all of my favourite parts of Rock Your Ugly. It's an absolutely stunning book and what I'm going to do is put up a link on my website at hazelbutterfield.com so people can easily get hold of it and read it, share it, Buy it for all your friends, so we've made sure it's nice and easy for Christmas presents, Mother's Day presents, you name it, the whole lot. We've made people's lives so much easier, you know, Waleed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, gifts already, you know, just tune in and we'll tell you what the gift is. Yes, yeah, there you go, sorted it, there you go. Saves people so much time. I must say it's a fantastic book, I've loved reading it and it's just, the imagery is fantastic, you must be very proud of your of the first book, and I really can't wait to see the next one because I know, I know there's going to be another one. You know there's going to be another one, huh? Okay, you're encouraging me to think about it. All right, okay, yeah, I'll think about that. Yeah, let me know, let me know as soon as it's done. And thank you so much for joining us here on Get Booked, and I wish you a fantastic rest of your day in New York. Okay, sounds good. Thank you so much for having me. You are very welcome. Thank you, and hope to have you back on the show again very soon. For the second half of today's Get Booked show, we're going to be having a look back at one of my favorite shows where we interviewed Ed James, Mark, and Nicky Taylor about their book Be More Kid. Fabulous book. Sit back and enjoy. On today's show, we'll be talking to Hearts Ed James as well as behavior and relationship experts Mark and Nicky Taylor about their book Be More Kid. This book is about highlighting learned behavior that is impeding our joy of life, traits that kids have until the world and responsibilities affect us, the preconceived notions that childlike energy means we're somehow being irresponsible and the social impact of that. And I wasn't too sure I'd much left to learn, as my kids seem to think that they are the adult in our household, but I've loved unpacking the areas of my life that needs a bit of a rehaul. Ed, Nicky, Mark, welcome to the show. Thank you. Hello. Now, uh, this is going to be interesting. So there's 4 of us going to be potentially talking over each other. There's possibly cats that are going to be coming in Nicky and Mark's side, and we're hoping that my beagle stays quiet. So the joys of lockdown recording. Lucky Ed's kids are back at school, so otherwise it would have been a free-for-all. Well, I still have one of my children at home because he's in secondary school and he's had his, his flow test yet, so he's not allowed in until tomorrow. So I've told him to keep it down. And I've told him, if you're going to stuff your face on 63 brioches, can you do it before and after? Because you know what it's like, these kids, they need at least 83 snacks a day just to keep them going. We always argue here because the kids always go, "There isn't any food in." I'm like, "Yeah, because you've eaten it all." Oh, it's just incessant, isn't it? I mean, my youngest, he's been back at school this week and I'm like, "How have you coped with just having what's in your packed lunch?" The joys, the joys. I've got to learn everything new now, but I've been trying to be more kid and I've been eating incessantly as well. I don't think that's in the book, actually. Well, I sometimes like to go outside of the box. So why don't we start by, if you tell us a little bit about each of you. Ed, do you want to start and then maybe you can sort of lead on to where the book came from and then we can sort of chip in? That's a great idea. So hello, my name's Ed James. I'm a broadcaster kind of first and foremost, I guess. I've been working on Heart in the West Midlands for 19 years, which always scares me whenever I say that because it's an amazing job and I still feel I'm quite quite new into it, and I still feel I've barely started. But yeah, it'll be 20 years next year, which is frightening. Um, in addition to that, I co-founded a content marketing agency nearly 3 years ago, and I've been a lifelong fan of self-improvement and self-help. I guess I've read all the books and just try to learn how other people do what they do and how to find content tentment in your own life, I guess. That led me to do an NLP course with Mark and Nick. That's where I met the guys for the first time. It was like 4 years ago, guys. Yeah, I think it was 2000— well, actually, so this is 5 years ago, 2016. There you go. So enjoyed the course, opened my eyes to the potential and the possibilities. I did the first one, which was Practitioner, then I did Master Pract, and just was blown away by the— just how it changes everything about your life and the way you view your life. It's just, it's just such an amazing thing to do. And on the course, Mark— actually, I remember this— Mark turned to me and went, what's the big goal? And I thought, well, I've got two choices here. Do I just give a standard answer, or do I actually answer it honestly with what I want to do? And I thought, well, I may as well be honest. I said, I want to write a a best-selling book. And Mark went, well, well, well, you can if you put it in your timeline and you create it as a goal and you work towards it. And actually, we're kind of keen to help and get on board as well. And that's where, that's where the friendship, I think, started. And then we started to meet up and talk about it, and I shared the concept for the book, and Mark and Nick totally bought into it and said, we've had the same kind of thoughts. It really was a meeting of minds and ideas, and we all said, this is such a an amazing concept that should become a book. And in a nutshell, the idea came when my daughter was 5 years old. She broke her arm. She fell— well, she either fell or was pushed off the top bunk. I'm still not sure which. We don't talk about that. And it was really interesting the way she handled it. She cried initially when the arm— when the break took place. But absolutely after that, didn't cry, didn't moan, didn't complain. It didn't affect her life in any way. If anything, she just threw herself into life with more gusto than she already had done. She got a pink cast, which she loved because she loves pink. She loved the attention from all her friends. Didn't stop her doing anything. She absolutely thrived. She, she relearned how to do things. So she used to open drawers with her other arm and use her head to close them. And I just thought then, blimey, if that had happened to me, I would have been— it would have been the end of the world. It would— I couldn't drive, obviously. I probably couldn't turn up at work. I couldn't see anybody because I've got a broken arm. I'd be in pain. I'd moan about it. I'd probably stay in bed all day and overeat. And it would just be such a big thing. It's the old thing of the— I guess we all know it's not what happens to you, it's how you react to that. But when I saw how my daughter handled what could have been a really horrendous thing, something clicked in my head and I thought, hang on, she hasn't— she hasn't thought about that at all. She's just innately, organically dealt with it. And what can we learn from that? What can I learn from how kids just handle things and just cope with things? Because I used to be a kid and I, I would have had her reaction years ago, but I don't now because I'm now at the stage where I overthink and I make everything a problem. And that's where the idea came from. We sat down, we just looked at how kids behaved and operated. We interviewed loads of kids, loads of adults as well, and we found that this was a thing for a lot of kids. They just had a mindset of potential and possibilities and fun and excitement, and no matter what was happening in their lives, they just made the best of that. And, and then we just thought, well, hang on, this whole thing's been wrong all the way through. The self-help industry is all about what can you learn, you're not enough, you may have the right intentions, but you need to know these skills. And we, as we were interviewing all the kids, were thinking, this is completely wrong. The kids just actually know how best to handle life. And we've all been kids. And the problem is We take on board all this extra stuff over the years and we, and we weigh ourselves down and we procrastinate and we overthink and we, and we anticipate things turning out wrong and bad when we don't need to do any of that. We need to reconnect with the resources we all had as kids and get involved with those. And that will give us, you know, a new energy and a new purpose for life, and that is what Being More Kid is all about. I do know what I love that, and there's been so— I've got so many, a list, a ridiculous list of things I want to talk about, and I'm hoping that we can squeeze them all in. But ultimately, Being More Kid, it's like, it's learning how to live in the now. Yeah. And, and I read a fantastic quote once in a book called The Anxiety Girl, and they said depression is to do with worrying about the past and anxiety is to do with worrying about the future. If you live in the now, both can't exist. Some of the things that we speak about in Be More Kid is actually how you can then take what we've learned as adults, the useful things from being an adult, and apply them to the, to the thinking of and the resources of Be More Kid. Because the problem with if you always live in the now is that you would never actually— it would never have written written the book, because you're not thinking about the future. So there's a place for everything, yet it's utilizing the best of both and using those to tap back into the resources that you've had, which were empowering as a child, and then utilizing those as an adult. So, so the future does have its place, as does the past, but not driven by those things that have caused us problem, you know, and held us back. That's the thing though, isn't it? It's finding the balance, and we don't seem to be living our lives in a balanced way at the moment. We're kind of getting too much in our head and coming up with excuses as to why we don't do something. Do you know what? I saw something fantastic on Facebook a month or so ago where— and in the book you talk about how people have regrets are they making excuses for not doing something? Oh, I'll do this when I lose weight. Oh, I'll do this when I get my bonus. Or I'll do this, or I just need more time. Then all of a sudden, we quite a few of us got a lot of time because of COVID and, and then we still didn't do what we wanted to do. And we're like, oh, okay, having more time wasn't it, it was just making excuses. Yeah, we talk a lot, especially on our training courses, about living life consciously Now, by that, I don't mean sort of, you know, with your incense and doing Om consciousness type thing. I mean living your life on purpose so that what you actually do is you appreciate that life will ebb and flow because too many people actually look for a notion of balance. I.e., they think every area of their life should be a 10. So if you sort of cut your life down into sort of different segments like your health and fitness, your relationship with significant other, your family. This is the Wheel of Life, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Wheel of Life. So you can use the Wheel of Life exercise in the book. And what you can do is look at that moment. Where are you as a sort of level of satisfaction, 0 to 10 in each of those areas? And what's driving that? Are you spending the proportionate amount of time for what you get? Because what a lot of people do is try and get 10 out of 10 in all areas. That's spinning plates. That really does wear people down. That's called stress. Oh, and we don't believe in work-life balance. You see, we believe work is one area of life. And so we believe it's important, like your relationship with your partner or whatever else, and your kids. They're important. And we think what you should do is look at how do you— and there's a pun here with our surname— tailor your life. Hey, how do you tailor your life to what it is? Because we all know, so you've got kids, it's like, but you think about areas of your life, which areas of your life actually changed, Hazel, when you had kids? Because, um, you know, most people think they'll have kids and their life will just go on as it always would. Well, no, your priorities change, you know, you have a responsibility to keep them safe, you can't Yeah, you know, pop off at the drop of a hat. But to be fair, I mean, I think I've traveled ridiculously with my kids. They're just an extra excuse. But most people, they'll stop going to the gym, they will— perhaps their career will change, um, and, and lots of things happen. But we don't plan for this. We're not conscious that that change is coming up. And, and this happens throughout our life. We call it the grown-up trap. The grown-up trap, life happens to us. There are expectations from maybe society that we get married, that we take on a mortgage, that we get car finance. And all of these things trap us into just being this grown-up and we're not living our life to the full. Initially, when we first had the conversation, it wasn't on his wheel of life one of the most important things. Because so we said to him, look, Ed, we get approached by a number of people for different projects. When you've got the time, when it's actually really important, you come back to us and we'll do it. And it took him about a year or so. Yeah, wasn't it? You know, I'm ready. Yeah, he came back about a year or so later. I'm ready, folks. I've got some time, you know, because he's a busy guy like we all are. And so he came back to us and we went, right, okay, so let's put the plan in place. But we've got to realize that this is going to squeeze other areas of our life. So we believe in this notion of living a conscious life. So, because Nikki and I, we, we disappear for at least 2 days a year to go through the Wheel of Life with each other, and we sort of strip things back and we go, right, what do we want to fulfill now for the next 12 months? What is it in these areas do we want to fulfill? What do we want to do separately and together? Wow, that is complete conscious living. That is fantastic. Well, if you want to get your outcomes, you've got, you know, because The problem you've got is, is that we have so many things, especially with modern technology, so many competing things which lead to stress, which then you have this problem of anxiety, you have this problem potentially of depression. But if you manage those things and you manage them, put goals in place and actually take action towards those goals like we did with the book, then, then you will succeed and you will feel fulfilled in life. It's only when our lives go unconscious. I mean, neuroscientists reckon that for 95% of the time, people aren't consciously in control of their lives. How scary is that, by the way, that most people for most of the time are sleepwalking through their lives? Oh, well, as you say, it's being a passenger in life, isn't it? And what I found quite interesting about just talking about trying to get Ed to squeeze some time in to do the book, we seem to be bogged down by these things. These preconceived ideas of what we should be doing and what we should be spending our time doing. I used to have other moms saying to me, "I can't believe you get to go to the gym all the time. Why do you find the time?" Like, well, actually, if I go to the gym, I have more energy and I can get more done. It's like speculate to accumulate. And in the same way, I'm pretty certain it was an idea that was bogged down in your head because you knew you wanted to get this book out. And I'm sure that was cathartic and made you even more incentivized to kind of, be more proactive with life because you're, you're getting more done. And you've got to commit to it as well. So I remember it was every Friday at 1 o'clock, I think it was, for a few hours. And we met every single week, and we— and that was blocked out in all of our diaries, and that was the time we'd do it. And if we needed more time, we absolutely would. But you've got to— if it's important, you've got to make it a priority. Priority and commit to the people you're with and the project you're trying to do. Otherwise, as Mark said, it's not conscious and it just won't happen. We should really start at the beginning with page 2 with the 5 regrets, and this is what you try to rein in on for the readers to kind of really embrace what it is that they want to do. We, as we said before, we're sometimes passengers in life and we just kind of don't give the give ourselves the time to actually think about what we want. And the, the 5 regrets, um, I wish I'd have the courage to live life true to myself and not the life of others, um, that they expected of me. Or I wish I hadn't worked so hard. I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. And I wish I'd let myself be happier. And we're not doing that, are we? That's— and that's when we we become passengers when we're not actually fulfilling our lives the way that we want to do, especially when we were kids. Yeah, it's so interesting because if you talk to, talk to kids, particularly of a certain age— I mean, the, the age group that we did the research with were really between the ages of 5 and 7. And really, the sort of 5 and 6-year-olds, they're just such fantastic ideas about what they were going to do with their lives, you know. They were going to be dancers and, you know, doctors and, you know, all these fantastic things. Astronauts. Yeah, astronauts. And they really, really believed that that's what they were going to do, which is fantastic. And then as they started to get a little bit older, because we did research with older children too, it was then almost what society expected of them. And you could actually see their mindset changing. And this is what happens through the teenage years. Giving an example from my brother from a number of years ago, my brother was, it was when computers were just sort of starting out, and he said he wanted to develop computer games and he wanted to work with computers. A person at school said to him, oh, you're just never going to do that. You just need to work in a bank or do something usual, normal. And so this is the kind of influence that we have with good intentions. You know, people do it with good intentions because they don't want the kids to be disappointed, you know. And so my brother fortunately didn't listen to them, and he now actually works over in America, and he works— he does exactly what he wanted to do. He was actually moved over by Microsoft. So he's ended up doing exactly what he wanted. That's because he didn't listen to people trying to tell him what was possible and what wasn't possible. But I think it's very easy for us just to get influenced by someone else's opinion. And I think that only gets more intense as we go into the workplace. And, you know, people, for— again, with good intent and sometimes not with good intent— start to influence what you believe about yourself and your capabilities and what you can achieve. And then you start to get the family and the, you know, all the other things that just seem to flow one after the other. And we can then start to feel guilty for even wanting to do things for ourselves, particularly when you're a parent. Nick, that's a really, really good point. And just, just think, think about kids now. When a kid wants to go to the park or a kid wants a sweet or a toy, they are relentless. And we lose that ability. So as we get older, we don't put ourselves first in the way that kids will. And we people-please, and we go, oh, well, I want to do this, but I don't think they'd be keen, or my mum wants me to do this, so I'll just agree to do it. When do we, and why do we stop putting ourselves ahead of other people? Because, you know, actually all then you do is you live a life that you're unfulfilled and uninspired by. And why would you choose that to be your life? Because people are worried about what other people think, especially with social media, and there's a lot of jealousy around I think you'll find that your biggest critics of what you do when you are living your best life are those that are jealous of you doing what they wish they could do. You know, there are a lot of mental health and wellbeing issues, definitely more to the fore at the moment, and people are worried about judgments. That is why we are not being more kid, because we are worried about what people perceive us to be when we do that. If we put ourselves first, oh wow, look at her doing that job. I wonder who's cooking dinner for the kids, um, and things like that. We are constantly getting these judgments. And, you know, it is even more so in the last 10 years. You don't just get it in the street or in the playground, you're getting it on social media. Yeah, that's why within the book put a lot of how-to do stuff. That's why I would put exercise in there, because we didn't want this just to be, um, another book which is, is, is just a what— what I call a what book. Because there's so many sort of self-development type books out there. They're just what? And that's why we sort of put within each chapter at least one exercise people do, because the biggest issue I think we face today, and, and it's linked with the mental health issue, is emotional control. Is that we've got these wonderful things, being human, called emotions, which— and we're conscious of them. And what we don't have is a lot of the time the mindset techniques and the tools for well to do that. And I'll talk from, for myself here. I was diagnosed with clinical depression after, well, this is probably now about nearly 20 years ago, after basically looking to drive my car into the parapet wall of a motorway bridge because I'd had enough. I couldn't see past what was going on in my life at the time and I'd had enough. Now, for whatever, a glimmer of hope came through the clouds. And I didn't do it. But that was the sign where I went, I just can't do this anymore. Something's got to change. I went and saw the doctor. Their first thing was go on antidepressants, which is, you know, the normal route. And they offered me counseling. The problem was when I got into that system was I weren't on the antidepressants very long. They just didn't agree because I would wake up dopey in the morning and couldn't really function. Correctly. What you need is, and everyone really needs, is whatever's good for them to have some sort of mindset techniques to be able to exercise emotional control. So it's a bit like you were talking earlier, when we look back over our past, we actually look at the past as being learnings rather than all wrapped with negative emotions like anger and fear. And, and when we're looking at the future, we're actually looking at it from this childlike aspect of its opportunity. There's fun to be had amongst all of that, rather than, as exactly you said earlier, having fear of the future, because that's what anxiety is. Anxiety is just really seeing things turning out the way that you don't want them to. So for us, the book's been very important, especially from this point of view of change, for us to help people start, pose sort of questions for them within that about how their life is, but also give them some tools like Wheel of Life and other exercises where they can start thinking, yeah, you know, I really need to invest in my mindset because, hey, let's face it, we all take our car normally for a service every year, but we don't service our minds. We don't service us as individuals. And I think that's the emphasis with me with the book book was that for us it was when we started writing it, there was a, there's a bigger thing behind this for us, uh, and especially with the year we've been through, there's not a better time for a book like this, especially with regards to people start thinking about their sort of mental and emotional status. Now it's interesting that you said that you found it quite hard having to go back and look over things that have happened in the past. However, sometimes if we don't unpack and deal what's, what's happened to that it will go with us in the future, and we can't actually accept what's happened and move on. So sometimes you've got to put in the work to kind of be able to excel in the future. Like page 17, the whole— there's a section on acceptance of what you can't control, but it still means that you have to process possibly what has happened. When I read that chapter, actually, um, there's a few things that have happened to me in the last 3 or 4 years that were definitely impeding the that I was living. And I went through a process of accepting, and certain people have possibly put me in a rather not great position. I just accepted it and actually started saying hi and being a little bit more friendly, kind of just letting it go. And weirdly, I even lost weight, and I felt so much lighter and happier, and I've slept better. And the power of just just working through something to accept, yes, you've got to put the work in sometimes, but it's great to actually change your mindset, give your brain a bit of a Ctrl+Alt+Delete. I, I'd agree. I mean, what I say about difficulty dealing with the past is it's about— the thing is, right, the way the brain works, if you think about neural networks, we have a saying, neurons that fire together wire together. So it becomes hardwired neural networks And this is where the 95% of living life for most people on automatic happens because they hardwire behaviors without releasing the negative charge on them, i.e., the emotions which are on them, that the content then becomes hardwired and will keep producing those emotions automatically whenever you think of that past event. The way we look at things is very much along the line of what you're saying there. One of the biggest learnings people ever get is to accept things and just let them go. But also having techniques where you can actually release negative emotions off past events so those emotions don't sort of harm you. Because a lot of people, they, they get what we call a gestalt of emotions. So something will happen which emotion stored on it, and then the next thing happens, the next thing happens, and it's just all piles up. It becomes a whole sort of stack of anger or a whole stack of fear. And that's when we have the final straw that breaks the camel's back. Somebody then has anger issues or they may have phobias. And if you can then go back with a mindset technique and release that negative emotion from the past, as it were, but then it takes the charge off your past and you can then, like you say there, exactly let go of, of that stuff. And start accepting that a lot of the time people just do what they do. People do the best they can with the resources they have available at any one time. And it's really down to us, as Ed said earlier on, how we're responding to events, which is the important thing. Do you know what I mean? We are all completely different. And I think one of the main things that we can do to help ourselves out is to know what gives you fire in your belly, whether it's listening to poetry or going for a walk in the woods or watching a ridiculous program. Find what distracts you and just gives you that fire, and then try and just reprogram your mindset that when you're thinking certain negative thoughts, go to your happy place. There's a really good bit in the book as well, because actually, as you get older, it's interesting— the films you used to watch, you don't watch anymore. The music you used to enjoy, the instruments you, you played We sometimes see life in terms of it's a progression and what we used to do we've grown out of and it's not part of our lives anymore. But there's a lot of power in reconnecting with the things that gave you that fire and passion as a kid. And what we found in the people we've had a chat to is when they go back and they, they have a go on the instrument that they used to play, or if they used to ride horses or whatever, It's amazing how you feel when you do the things that used to light a fire in you as a kid, because guess what? They still do as an adult. And that's a really exciting thing to try as well. So, so there's this colony of ants and they've got this competition whereby they want to decide who is the sort of strongest ant and what they've got faced in front of them is this rear, this pole, and it's a really high pole and they've got to climb to the top of the pole. So the ant that climbs to the top will go there. But it's, I mean, it's a massive task. It's a really high pole. And so they're all looking at it and some of the ants look at it and go, I'm not even going to attempt this. You know, I'm, I'm, there's just way beyond my capabilities. And then a few start going up and they'll be going up and then all of a sudden they'll hear the crowd of ants ants below going, are you going to fall off in a minute? You're going to fall off. Oh, you'll never make it to the top. And guess what? They fall off. And this goes on all day. And these ants are having a go, but then the crowd are, you know, sometimes cheering them, but other times going, oh, you've gone further than other people, but, you know, it's way beyond any ant's capability to get to the top of the pole. Anyway, they're getting towards the end of the day and this one ant comes forward and starts going up the pole. And all the others are shouting, you know, and he goes past all these markers of where all the other ants have been and he keeps going and they're all going, oh, you'll never do it, oh, be careful, you'll fall, you know, you need to come back, come back now because if you fall you're going to hurt yourself and he goes all the way to the top and they're all cheering and everything else and he comes down and he comes back down again, they're going, how did you do it? 'How did you do it?' And they're talking to another ant that was with him. And he's saying, 'Look, against all that adversity,' he said, 'Well, all those people, all those ants telling him he couldn't do it,' he said, 'Well, he's deaf. He's a deaf ant.' Oh, wow. I didn't see that coming at all. I love that story. And we all should do that. We all should be a deaf ant. We should. Oh, there you go. That's a perfect way to end today. Today's show. Be more deaf ants! Well, Ed, Mark, and Nikki, thank you so much for joining us here for Get Booked at Men's and Women's Radio Station. And listeners, do pop over to bemorekidney.com and download the resources as you read the book. Thank you. The book is still on special on Amazon at £7.34, so it's a bargain. Quick, go get it! Go get it now before it runs out!