Get Booked – Sylvie Boulay, Beyond Beige, A Woman’s Illustrated Story Of Old Age 120224

Hello, I'm Hazel Butterfield and this is Get Booked, a show all about a love of reading and writing, and we're here to help support your emotional well-being. I hope you're all well and ready to get booked. Today on the show, we are going to be chatting to Sylvie Boulay. Sylvie is a member of the British Association for Counselling and psychotherapy and has extensive experience working with clients with addiction problems. Her work has appeared in several journals. She was born in Paris and now lives in London. The book we're going to be talking about today is Beyond Beige: A Woman's Illustrated Story of Old Age. It's published on the 28th of February of 2024 and is available in paperback for £11.99 or ebook for £9.59. Now, this book is all about the joys and horrors of old age. It's going to show you the uncensored reality of Sylvie's experience and that of women who have confided in her. You'll find humour, despair, and some gritty bits, but absolutely no euphemisms. You will either say, "Yes, that's me," me, or thank goodness this hasn't happened to me. I've been reading this book and I'm in my early 40s and I've found quite a few similarities and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading it. It's unflinching, honest, and relatable. This illustrated book is neither a celebration nor a complaint about old age. It's this simple, unadorned truth of life, fully illustrated throughout with cartoons and drawings and this fantastic new title shines the brightest of lights on aging as a woman. Okay, today's book, this witty, shocking, brutally honest illustrated book, Beyond Beige talks about the actual changes that women experience after a certain age, uh, but a lot younger for some of us as well. Author Sylvie Boulay, in her 70s, draws from her own experience and that of others she has shared her thoughts with. It was— it's very rare that we open up so much about the changes we go through at certain times of life. Menopause has broken that mold and is widely talked about now, and hopefully this book will go part of the way to open up about what to expect and to know that you're not alone in life beyond the menopause. You know, as women, we go through many stages in life— childhood, adolescence, adulthood, perimenopause, menopause, But what comes after menopause? It's old age. Sylvie, welcome to Get Booked. How are you? I'm a little bit nervous, but I'm so excited to be on Get Booked. I'm so excited to have you on Get Booked. I mean, I actually, um, I was speaking to your PR lady when I started reading the book and I said, I'm 42 and I'm going through most of these things that Sylvie is talking about. And she's like, May, I'm 50 and I completely identify with what she has to say. So it's, um, it's not just old age. Sometimes it's just hectic life and we possibly attribute old age to it, but it also, you know, it is a factor. That's something that we have to just acknowledge. But I have been giggling my way through Beyond Beige. I actually— it's so One of the places I work at, I quite often leave whatever book I'm reading in the toilet so everybody can kind of have a bit of a sneaky peek. And I've had so many of the women going, I love it. That happens to me. Why, why are you still be saying it's just in your old age? You know, I'm in my late 30s and I've been doing this. So yeah, your book has definitely got a wide reach. I'm so excited about that, although I do think you're far too young for this. But I really felt that as women got older, they weren't allowed to talk about it anymore. Even my friends, when I tried to get them to talk about old age, would actually say very little. They might talk about their aches and pains, but actually what it really felt like, the whole experience of getting old, they would shut up and not say anything. And it's as if Women are told, 'Just put up with it. It's something that you just have to accept.' And I wasn't prepared to accept it. And I also found a lot of things were really funny, so I couldn't stop myself. I had to start drawing, drawing cartoons about all my experiences. And when I had loads and loads of cartoons, I thought, 'I don't care what anybody thinks, I'm going to share this.' You know what, that is one of the beauties of getting a little bit older. We care less about what other people think. Yes, it doesn't matter. Do you know what? I still care about what people think about me, and I can't wait for that to stop. And it— I think it really does stop, or it diminishes enormously. I found some of the reactions I got from my friends while I was writing Beyond Beige weren't actually all that positive. There was one friend who said to me, "Oh, you're just a show-off." And at first I was a bit hurt, and then I thought, actually, this is a great compliment, and I should take it as that. I'm an old woman, and I'm a loud one, and I shall stay that way. But can you imagine if we were all the same, and how incredibly dull life would be? We don't Some of us want to talk about what's going on, and sometimes some of us like to just stick our head in the sand and go, la la la, it's not happening. But you know, this is the, this is the point. You can choose to do things how you want to do it. But I think the more that people talk about things, as with anything in life, the easier it is to deal with and not feel lonely with just how scary life can be, no matter what we're going through. I totally agree. And I was so interested that a lot of my friends didn't want to talk. But once I was showing them drafts of my book, all sorts of stories were coming out. And even very old friends were told— telling me things that they'd never said before. So I think we may need a little bit of a push, some sort of aid to start talking. And amazingly, I found that my book did that. It made people talk. Well, I think sometimes it's about finding the right people for you as well, because some people want to be stoic, whether it's a cultural thing or just the way you are brought up. But I know with my friends, um, quite a few of my friends are possibly about 10, 10, 15 years older than me, and, you know, we'll be jumping about like no one's business, or we'll, we'll have one too many glasses of fizz and we'll suddenly decide to start jumping on their daughter's trampoline and we'll be like, who's peed first? And you know, we have a laugh with it because it's normal. And you know, the more we kind of shy away from it, have a little bit of fun with it. You might as well. I agree. And I found all my ideas about this book for some reason came out as comic strips. So I started to sketch them just to amuse myself and amuse my friends. And then they grew and there were so many, I just had to do something with them. And that's when I had the idea of turning them into an illustrated book. I wanted originally to have a graphic novel, but my drawing's not good enough, so it's just ended up being half text and half drawings. I've got to disagree with you there. I mean, I was going to ask you about whether they— it they were your illustrations, but I love them. They're— thank you— they're so realistic, they're funny, they're very satirical, and I think it just shows your humor the way that they're done. Thank you so much. I mean, with them, I wrote another book before with just a few illustrations, and they were all done in pen and paper, and the publisher complained and said, I can see your rubber marks on there, you just can't send that to me, you have to start again. So This time I bought myself an iPad and I learned to use Procreate. And to a young person, certainly to my granddaughter, it's incredibly easy. Within 5 minutes she was doing beautiful photos and beautiful artwork. But for me, it was a complete nightmare. I cried, I called my friends, I had all sorts of panic attacks about it, but I had to somehow be able to draw properly. So that's how That's actually what I'm most proud of, having mastered my iPad. I'm quite proud of you for that as well. I haven't managed to do that yet at all. I mean, to be honest, I, I have to go through this with— I've got two teenage boys, and sometimes I dread when something doesn't work because I know if I ask them, they will do it. They will sort it in seconds. They'll look at it and literally sometimes just the way they look at the technological device and just make it start working again. And I'm just like, I don't want to ask them because they're going to look at me with that kind of pitying, disdainful look that the dog also gives me when I won't give her a bacon sandwich, do you know? And so sometimes we struggle on our own because we don't want that look. Absolutely. And also, I bet your teenage sons don't actually explain, so you don't learn for next time. Is that right? Oh yeah, they would never explain. And when I ask them, to. They're just like, oh, you're just so much hard work, Mom. I'm like, but then I will know for next time. But also, in the same way that you've learned to use the, the creative element of your iPad, sometimes if we go through the harder way of doing things, we learn through our own mistakes and we understand things more. Absolutely, that is so true. It just took me so long and so much effort, but now I should definitely remember how to do how to use Procreate and how to do illustrations for the rest of my life. What I found that was really difficult was that I learned things quite slowly. So I'd done about half the book when I realized I was using the wrong brush with my Apple Pencil. So I had to go back and do it all over again. Well, okay. Well, second time better, maybe. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Well, a lot of people, when they write a book, they have to rewrite and re-edit. So it's just the same, I guess. Yes, and I've now decided finally to join an iPad group with my friend, and I'm gonna finally find out all the tricks and all the things I could have done with while I was doing the book. But at least I'll learn it eventually. Well, if you can do some bullet points and send them over to me, that'd be great. Well, they'll be much clearer than anything you've son can, can give you, because I shall actually try and figure it out properly as opposed to just doing it like young people do. Yeah, I did actually, um, I had a conversation with my eldest son the other day who, even at college, his tutor— I think he's got a couple of different tutors and they're all kind of ranging between 35 and 45— and even he is showing them how to use the technology they need. Oh my God. Because it's constantly advancing. We don't have time to constantly learn the difference or the additional capabilities of particular technology that changes every month, if not every week. It's just exhausting. But, you know, I so agree with that. I really do agree. Yeah. Well, something else that I've really enjoyed in this book is You've got such a deliciously dry sense of humor. Have you always had that? I think it's partly because I come from a different culture, so sometimes things amuse me that don't— might not amuse someone else. So I'm kind of using that a little bit and trying to to reach a different audience. I was always unsure whether what I liked would be something that other people would relate to, so I kept on showing my pictures and showing my drafts to all my friends, anybody who's willing to comment, just to make sure that people got it. And sometimes people liked some bits, and other times they didn't like some things at all. There's one friend who said of one picture in particular, this is horrible, you can't possibly put that in. And in the end, I just thought, oh, sod it, some people will make of it whatever they can. Well, I'm definitely— the kind of people that I hang out with, they like this kind of sense of humor. Um, but it's really kind of useful snippets in there as well that sometimes we need to remind ourselves as well. I mean, there's there's quite a few pages that I've kind of peeled the page back to remind me, some of my favorite ones. Um, page 91, it's a good reminder that nobody is half as bothered about what you do as you are. It's when it's such obsessing and wasting the amount of time we spend worrying about what people think. And also, half the time you don't even particularly rate the decisions of your friends, and yet you, you care about their opinion on you when they've never lived a day in your life. Yes, I totally agree. And I found one thing that helped me was, for some reason, I've got a brilliant memory for anything funny that anybody says. So I kind of remembered what my friends were saying as well. So it's, in a way, it's a bit of a compendium of funny moments from other people's lives as well. Yeah. Yeah, well, this— I had a bit of a giggle when I was reading this bit, and unfortunately I was kind of— because I said I sometimes like just keep it in the bathroom so that people can have a bit of a go, can you kind of— because it's one of those books where people can pick up really quickly and just have a couple of minutes with it. And I started giggling in the toilet when there was somebody in the one next door, and I was like, oh, people are hearing me giggle. But it was the bit where you went, despite the depression, the loneliness, the and the painful joints. There's so much to say for old age. I recommend getting old. I was like, yeah, positive mental attitude, Sylvie. Well, I felt I'd put so much about negative things and sort of maybe scary things about what had happened to me in my childhood that I really didn't want to end the book on the miserable note because I am incredibly grateful to be alive. Yeah. And I just think it's, it's wonderful to be old and it's so much better than dying young. So I felt I just had to finish it on a positive note because actually it is incredibly positive and very enjoyable. Well, the alternative to old age is dying young. You don't want that. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and now it's interesting, there's many, there's a lot of different things that you talk about in the book, and there was a section on, you know, we're supposed to still supposedly look good, and we kind of judge each other even, you know, oh look, you look great, when you're thinking, oh no, you're not looking that great at all. And then there's, you know, but people just want to be either nice about each other and then secretly judge, and then we judge ourselves, and Oh, what are we supposed to be? Are we supposed to be looking beautiful? Are we supposed to age gracefully? Um, I know that I, I refuse to. I mean, even though, you know, I'm 42, but I constantly have my friends saying that I still just kind of pretty much wear what I want. If I want to wear a string bikini, I do it, and I don't really care what other people think. Oh, good on you. I bet you look gorgeous in one as well. Oh, thank you very much. But Not necessarily, because I also really like my food. But I think it must be quite different for you. I mean, you were— were you born in Paris? Yes. So the French idea of, of beauty and class and how you're to be perceived by other people is quite different to many other places in the world, isn't it? I think, I think it's very different, especially you know, a long time ago, I really felt that women, French women, were supposed to be elegant and clever and witty and beautiful, and age didn't actually matter so much. It was fine to have wrinkles so long as you looked amazing with them. And I really resented that. I hated the sort of image that I was supposed to show even as a young girl. I didn't have the shape that my mother would have wanted me to have. And it was just a relief. As soon as I could, I just left Paris. The day I got the results of my baccalauréat, which is like A-levels, I just left and came to London. And it just felt like I was embracing my freedom. I was having a wonderful time. Nobody really cared what I look like or what was going on in my life. And it— I've just felt in England that incredible freedom. I, I think it's more varied as well because there are a lot more freedom for you to take as many different routes as you choose to take, and you just find your people that want to go down that similar route. Yes, definitely. And there wasn't the same sort of limits on what I looked like or how I wanted to be once I'd moved countries. I don't know if it's still like that now, but I think it's too much pressure to have to be beautiful all the time, even if you're old. No, I'd rather just be fun. Yeah, yeah, that— I mean, that does work, and that kind of shines through like sunbeams, doesn't it? There's so many people that are so worried about how they're perceived that they don't— I would much rather see somebody who is warm in their eyes than, you know, sharp cheekbones and the perfect outfit. Yes, definitely. And as, as I found that I'm invisible anyway to men, it really doesn't matter how much trouble I go to. I did actually— there's this huge thing about, you know, how men are supposed to behave towards women these days, and, um, you know, the whole catcalling off building sites, which doesn't happen anymore. And every now and again I get the old, um, pip from a guy going past in the transit van, and my mate's like, oh God, you must hate that. I'm like, are you kidding? I forgot to look in the mirror this morning. How do I know I look Good, unless somebody peeps and shouts something out the window. It's brilliant. Hopefully not always, but I like that. I don't get that experience anymore. I haven't had it for a very long time, and it's actually quite nice. It can, it can be a little bit overwhelming and a little bit scary as well, especially I mean half the time it just makes me jump. I'm clumsy at the best of times. But I think, I'm sure you've got many of your, your friends who are jealous, because regardless of leaving Paris, you know, when you did, there's something about French women that they just, they keep hold of this effortless charm, if effortless elegance. Like, I mean, one of my best friends— I'm actually about to go and meet her later today— she's got two young children. She could have not slept for, you know, three years and possibly be hungover and bags under her eyes, and somehow she still manages to make it look like, you know, that's just the way the fashion should be these days. Oh my gosh, she just always looks incredible. She can throw anything on and it just lands so well. And I think that's something that you just— it's very— people have tried to imitate it, but it's, it's very French. Well, unfortunately, Hazel, I'm nothing like that. I'm just very ordinary and just, just a ordinary old lady, but one with a voice. Well, from reading the book, I'm gonna beg to differ on that one. I have found it very entertaining, and it's quite important because we've got International Women's Day coming on the 8th of March. What are you going to be doing to celebrate, potentially with Beyond Beige? I'm not sure. I'll definitely do something, maybe go out with my friends, because I think that's very important. Definitely. And I've talked to my granddaughter about it as well. How old is your granddaughter? She's 13 and a half. 13. Do you know what? I found it quite interesting reading about the, um, the grandparents section because I get so wound up by my mum and the way she is with my kids, but you kind of forget the other side sometimes, you know. You don't get to see your grandchildren as much. You don't know how long necessarily necessarily are going to be around, and it is a completely different dynamic. And I did enjoy reading about that. There was, there was another section, quite a brave kind of, uh, section, and I didn't know whether it was an intentional numbering of chapter 13, Unlucky for Some, in terms of your upbringing and your mother. And I think sometimes when we have a slightly adverse upbringing, it, it gives us kind of healthy, um, sarcasm and joy for life because we appreciate what we've achieved ourselves. Yes, I hesitated for a long time about including that bit about my childhood because I, I was brought up in a very traditional French family, a Catholic family, and my mother had quite extreme mental health issues. And at one point, after her own father died, um, she had such bad depression that she became psychotic. So she had delusions, she could see all sorts of strange things that weren't there. But most worryingly, she was constantly suicidal. So I used to spend a lot of time trying to make sure that she was okay, and My bedroom was very close to hers, so I could hear when she was trying to open the window to jump out. And we were on the 4th floor of a big French Paris block of flats. And this kind of vigilance that I had, always listening out and always checking she was okay and being scared as well, it's given me some extraordinary gifts. And it's only writing the book and especially doing the drawings to do with my mother that I realized what an amazing plus it actually was. It was a real bonus. I can escape in a secret place for a very short period of time if I really have to. These days it's mainly if I feel physical pain, say going to the dentist or a medical treatment. I can go into a bubble and not feel pain, only for a few minutes, but it's extraordinarily useful. And it seems like that I never realized I actually got from my upbringing. And I was really hoping that people reading my book might be able to reflect back. They obviously wouldn't have had the same experience, but they would have had difficult things happen in their life, and they might reflect on it and realize all the good things that they actually learned from it. I think it's the concept of reframing, yes, adverse happenings in our life. And of course we don't want to ever have to go through something that's quite stressful or traumatic, but a lot of people that do, do learn incredible coping mechanisms that help them in many different areas of their lives. That's definitely true. And I found that by talking about it and writing and drawing about it, instead of being resentful of what had happened to me, I started being grateful of what I'd learned. And that was a really nice byproduct of writing this book. That's brilliant. I, I like that. And this is what what we're about here at Get Booked, the women's and men's radio station. And Get Booked actually is played out on women's and men's because, you know, it's an issue for men as well. Men want to understand what women are going through because the more we understand each other, the more we kind of, you know, we can get along and we can kind of not feel isolated. That's true. And I showed the draft of my book to several men friends, and one of them said, um, we absolutely need a men version of this book. We do. I'm going to approach, um, some of the presenters and their guests at men's radio station, say, right, come on, who's going to be honest and do this for you lot? Good luck. Something that I do like to ask for all my guests here on Get Booked are the 3 top tips on just how— trying to maintain a good level of mental well-being. And I'm sure you have many. I think my first one would be to, to just keep going, keep working, whether it's actual work or voluntary work or gardening or walking a dog, whatever it is, or, or being connected with somebody, having a project, some— somebody or something that you care about. I think that was— that would definitely be my first one. Um, spending time with my family is very important, and spending time with their cats, because they have two enormous rescue cats cats who live in fear of being abandoned and want constant cuddles. And I just love being with the cats. And then my third one would be just physically moving. I like to walk, I like to jog, I like to do parkruns, and I'm learning to do line dancing, which I do incredibly badly. Ah, well, it's very boring to watch if you're not doing it. Yeah, you're doing it perfectly. It's like, oh, look, look, they're all the same. Watching me do it is really funny. Brilliant. I love that. I, I think, do you know what, what's really important, the first one that you, you came up with, it, it's all centered around purpose. If we have purpose, we feel useful, and that is so empowering, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. And being— maybe it's a bit sad, but being needed by someone or or something, or some animal, is absolutely crucial. Yeah, I, I do think, you know, the more my kids ignore me, you know, the more I rely on my dog to just say, 'Mum, you're doing great, sweetheart. Come on, let's pop out for a walk. Maybe we'll pop into a pub somewhere and we'll come back when the kids are out of their room. How about that?' I'm like, 'Oh, thanks.' Although obviously I, I, I have to be the voice of my dog as well, but pretty soon I'm getting it bang on. They're very good at teaching us how to speak dog or cat, aren't they? Yes, yes. Although I do have a beagle, so she's, um, she's, she's an interesting character at the best of times. Does she talk a lot? She does talk a lot, yes. Um, they— I don't know if you know beagles very well, they've got a very expressive face. Yes. And she comes everywhere with me. And yeah, I, I, I do adore her to pieces, but I often wonder— I'd love to know what her inner dialogue really is. Um, so I've had a quick look. Uh, you've actually— this is your second book, isn't it? It is, yes. My first book was completely different and I just stopped work in an NHS clinic for people with addictions. My head was still full of cognitive behavioral therapy and the stories of my clients. So I decided once I'd retired to write a book about how to help people stick to their diets. So I wrote this book, Take Charge of Your Diet, using the CBT that I'd learned. But it was like a manual. So absolutely nothing like Beyond Beige. Well, it's all about— I mean, our diet's so important. It's not just about staying fit or watching our cholesterol. What we put into our body and what suits us is hugely dependent on how our mood is and how we, you know, how positive we feel. Definitely. And I thought, I don't know anything about diets or the best ones. Or anything, but I thought I can use the principles of cognitive behavioral therapy to help people stick to whatever sensible diet they've decided to go with. So that was my attempt, but all along I kept on thinking I'd actually quite like to write something different, something more personal next time. But it took me a few years to recover from the first book before the ideas came for the second one. Well, Beyond Beige, uh, its publication date, the 28th of February of this year, and it's priced £9.59. I'll put up all the links and bits and bobs up on my socials. Are you on any of the socials? I'm not, but my publisher is, if you want their details. Oh, so it's Literary PR, isn't it? Literary PR. That's the marketing, um, agency. The publishers are Free Association. Ah, yes, I'm on there now. Freeassociationpublishing.com. They've got all the best pieces on there for you. But for anybody that's listening, I will be putting a link up to the book as well. And, um, I must say I've thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you. Thank you so much, Hazel. It's been A real pleasure talking to you. And, and do we have another book coming out soon? I would need to recover first, so I don't know if there's time enough. Ideas are beginning to come back, so possibly. Oh, that's good to hear. That is good to hear. We need to hear more from you. And Beyond Beige, a women's illustrated story of old age. It is so funny, it is real, and it's very personable. So congratulations, I think you've done a fantastic book there, Sylvie, and thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked. Thank you very much, Hazel. Thank you for having me. We now have a little bit of time to squeeze in telling you about some books I have read and loved, and first up We have Murder Most Cold by Victoria Dowd. This is about a bunch of women called the Smart Women, and what would be the best place for a wedding if you're a well-known murder blogging family who happens to find themselves in murderous situations way too often? An isolated hut in the deepest, darkest Finnish forest, away from harm and the media. Surely, especially when surrounded by family that love you. Sometimes smart women don't make the smartest choices. This is such a deliciously gruesome, tumultuous journey of murder and retribution, confusion and misplaced family devotion. That is Murder Most Cold by Victoria Dowd, and a little bit of a look back at a show we had towards the end of 2023 with the author Alice Cappelle and Collapse Feminism: The Online Battle for Feminism's Future. This book outlined the nuance of navigating the online environment as a feminist and the obstacles to progress which exist there. Cappelle expertly analyses a wide range of online communities and subcultures, revealing how an unprecedented backlash against women is being illustrated online. There's so much to think about in this book, and the level of in-depth qualitative information to exemplify such topics is remarkable. Alice is straight-talking, informed, passionate, and offers some hugely poignant, introspective, and thought-provoking societal issues around what feminism is, conflicting opinions of such, and the problematic repercussions of subjectivity and issues surrounding those who are threatened by what their version of feminism means for them. Collapse Feminism by Alice Capelle. You can find out about all the books that I have read and loved and reviewed at hazelbutterfield.com and on my Instagram @getbooked_wrs. Now, another book that I've really loved, and I keep on referring back to it, and this the show back in November. It was the incredible Emmanuelle Jahl with 'My Life Is Art,' which is actually an acronym of these pillars such as meditation leading to training. This book asks some excellent questions to help focus your mind and remind you of your reality and capabilities and to focus your mind to assist you in changing your narrative. Let's not ask what we are not succeeding at, but what steps we can take to work towards our goals. Some of my main and favourite takeaways from this book were on purpose and joy. Without purpose, our focus is on the wrong things and looking at the purpose of others, stealing our own joy and comparison is so unhealthy. I realised that I've recently lost purpose myself, which left me obsessing with the actions of those who clearly had more, or it affecting my self-esteem because lack of purpose can make you look at what you're lacking rather than what you're achieving. And there's so much more to this book too, making it quite a remarkable reminder of just how precious life is, no matter what we've gone through, and how to make sure we're turning life's challenges into something that can enrich us rather than swallow us up. You can actually buy Life Is Art using the LIFEISARTHAZEL promo code and get 30% off. There's a little link up on my website under the recent review. And a final book I want to tell you about was very Christmas-focused but always fun. It is The Killer's Christmas List by Chris Frost. There is a killer on the loose and he or she is apparently working to order off a 30-year-old Christmas list, but whose and why? Find that out and surely DI Tom Stoneham can stop this sicko. But the pressures of being a police officer are hard. Constantly scrutinised, relationships taking the hit as the job takes precedent, especially at Christmas when you just want to spend time with your family who don't want to feel abandoned yet again. 30 years is a long time to hold a grudge, but then again, sometimes it's hard to escape our past. Chris Frost has a great knack of hooking you in with gruesome violence from the most troubled and complex minds, from the goodies and the baddies. The Christmas Killers List by Chris Frost. Just a quick reminder, you can pop on to hazelbutterfield.com, and if you click onto the latest blog post, all the books have little links to make it easier to find them and buy. As ever, if you've read a fantastic book that I haven't mentioned and you think I'd love it, or maybe you want to send in a review, please do get in touch either through my website, through my Instagram, or to hazel@womensradiostation.com. Some of you regular listeners might recall a guest we had back at the beginning of 2023, the author Victoria Knox, who joined us on the show to chat about her new series, Neither Despise Nor Fear, which was released in last February. And she now has a new Clement Wisdom book, number 5 in that series, Code Name Sorrow. And she's done us a little bit of an author-read extract to whet your appetite. I hope you enjoy this. Code Name Sorrow. By V.M. Knox. An excerpt. Clement and Tom stayed low, crouching behind the tombstone as four dark figures passed them, their footsteps heavy on the gravel path. Two carried shovels, but no one spoke. They were heading for the gate to the street. Clement signaled to Tom to skirt the path on one side. He took the other, hoping to reach the front gates before the men. But in the darkness, the way was strewn with hazards fallen headstones in the long grass or concealed rectangular slabs of long-forgotten graves. Tripping on one, Clement fell. Wrapping his arms around his head, he fell onto his side, his ribs finding the stone edge of a gravesite. He clenched his teeth as a searing pain shot down his left side. The footsteps stopped. 'Who's there?' a male voice said. Clement lay prostrate in the long grass. Breathing through widened nostrils, he forced the pain from his side, clutching at his ribs. He lay still. "You see who it is," a male voice said, some little distance away from him. "Probably a drunk." "We'll have a look." Clement rolled over until he felt another tombstone, then rolled onto his side before crouching beside it. With the sound of approaching footsteps on the gravel, he withdrew his knife. Then all went Quiet. He sensed his pursuer was now in the grass and close. Holding his breath, he waited, his knife ready, but seconds passed and nothing stirred. Clemens stood. His attacker lunged. An iron grip on his neck sent shooting pain down his right arm, paralyzing his hand. His knife fell from his grasp. His attacker's hold was strong. The massive hand on his shoulder was squeezing hard. Clement felt dizzy, as though he may faint. Then the iron grip loosened and he felt something cold against his neck. Still holding his ribs, he tried to breathe, his eyes wide. There was no escape this time. Then he heard the thud-like cough. It was so close he could hear the rush of expelled gas from the barrel and he knew exactly what it was. The cold metal on his neck disappeared. Bending forward and clutching his side, he gulped air. Archer stood in front of him. 'Time to go, Clem,' Archer whispered from behind his balaclava. Clement saw the outline of a man lying on the ground behind him. Bending down, he rolled the man over and searched the face. The deep-set eyes were fixed in death. Even in the limited light, Clement didn't know the man, but he saw the dark trousers and short black coat. Still holding his ribs, Clement rubbed his neck. His attacker had been a very strong man, but he was not young. Clement could still feel the icy barrel of the pistol on his neck. 'Maybe now,' Archer whispered. 'Is he dead?' a voice shouted from some distance away. 'Yeah,' Tom shouted, his response quick and short. Clement squatted down and felt for his knife in the long grass. Sheathing it, he searched for his torch. Stay here, Clement said, then crept back to where he'd fallen. Then he rejoined Archer. What now? Archer whispered again. Wait. The insistent voice was shouting again. Come on, leave him there wherever he is, whoever he is. Skirt the drive and wait by the gate out of sight. And thank you, Tom, Clement said, his voice a mere whisper. Clement ran diagonally forward and back onto the path, covering the distance between himself and the gate in seconds. A few yards short of the group, he heard Bert call out, "What do you want? I haven't got anything." Clement stopped. He made an instant decision and, holding the torch wide from his body, switched it on. In 2 seconds, he panned the beam over the group caught in its glare, then extinguished the torch and ran diagonally forward. In those few seconds, he'd seen 4 figures, 3 scattered into the shadows. The only person in the group who stood staring into the light was Bert Smith. Dropping to the ground, Clement crawled behind a nearby headstone. 'Charlie!' a voice called. 'That's not Charlie,' another voice said. 'Who is it then?' 'I'm not waiting to find out.' Ahead, Clement heard a scuffle. A long, anguished groan carried on the night air. Clement remained still. Then running footsteps again. Several minutes passed. Not far away, a motor car engine started. Minutes passed. 'Come,' Tom's sharp whisper. Staying behind the headstone, Clement paused before speaking. He wasn't sure they'd all gone. 'Here,' he said at length, then moved position to another tomb. Standing, Clement crossed the gravel drive and ran towards the high walls of the church. Seconds later, Tom joined him. "Have they gone?" "I think so," Clement said, breathing hard and rubbing his aching neck. "You all right, Clem?" Tom whispered. "I'll live." Clement stared into the darkness, then reached again for his torch. Holding it away from his body, he switched it on and flashed it quickly over the scene. Ahead and lying on the ground was Burt Smith. Clement flicked the torch around the gate. And around the grass in front of him, no one. All Clement could hear was Bert's strident breathing. Get back to Miss Seaton's, Clement whispered. As soon as I get help for Bert, I'll join you there. And Tom, be careful. Don't be seen. Tom disappeared through the gate and into the night. Clement rushed forward and crouched beside Tom— Bert Smith. Hold on, Bert. I'll get a doctor for you. Across from him, Clement could see could see the light on in the rectory. Taking his handkerchief from his pocket, Clement wound it into a ball, then lifted Bert's shirt. Even in the pale light, the amount of blood was large. He stared at the wound. There was little damage to the flesh, but blood was flowing with every pulse onto the ground. Clement knew the blade would have gone deep, deep enough to sever major arteries and veins. Bert needed medical help, and soon. Clement held the knotted handkerchief to Bert's flesh, then releasing the rope around his trousers with one hand, repositioned it over his handkerchief. Working quickly, he tied the knot tight over the handkerchief, hoping it would apply sufficient pressure to the wound to stem the blood loss. Leaving him, Clement rushed to the rectory door and rang the bell multiple times. Several minutes passed. "Who is it?" Ari called from behind the door. "Clement Wisdom. Bert Smith has been stabbed. Could you please call an ambulance?" Clement heard the lock rotate. Murray stood in the doorway, his dressing gown tied around his waist and a torch in his hand. 'We should get him in here. Where is he?' 'On the path.' Running, Clement led the minister to where he'd left Bert. He stared at the blood-soaked ground. The man was nowhere to be seen. I'm Hazel Butterfield, and you've been listening to Get Booked for Women's Radio Station and Men's Radio Station. Catch me here every day of the week at 5 PM for Women's and 4 PM for Men's Radio Station. And of course, you can catch up on previous shows at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Right now, here's a little bit of a teaser. Sneaky peek of last week's show if you missed it. Thank you so much for listening. Right now on Get Booked, we have Russell Dumper with Britannia Rises: Ruling the Waves with just the beginning. This is book one. It's a dystopian of sorts, thriller of underworld and underhand tactics to gain control and amass power for the British Empire. A mixture of economic obfuscation, civil liberties distortions, enemies created to suit an agenda, and way too many true-to-life para— parallels to feel comfortable with. It's brilliantly written, excellently researched, and seemingly very well clued up on military combat and operative knowledge that just got you hooked. It's very clever, and what a great debut. Not for those who dislike graphic violence, for sure, but I'm all over it. Uh, welcome to the show, Russell. How are you? I'm very good, thank you. Yes, good to be here. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. I was surprised when I first saw the book. I thought it would be quite historically based, and as I said, I was quite hooked. And there are some really, really dodgy parallels that just kind of make you think, I wonder where he's got this information from. It's quite interesting because the book has been written, well, I've I sort of had the idea for it 20— when I was a teenager, so what, 30 years ago now. Oh wow. And I've written it and rewritten it when I've been failing to find a publishing house for it. Um, and, um, actually a lot of the themes in it are from the original material written 30 years ago. So it's quite interesting, maybe a little, uh, a little worrying how accurate some of it is turning out to be. Well, yes, because I assume the beginning is something that was quite a new idea because the way that you described the Queen and the monarchy taking over just seemed like there was about 95% parallels there. Well, no, the— actually, I was sending it out to people before the Queen died. And, and I've— I do think probably the reason it actually got picked up was because that happened. Um, so it's, um, but I researched the— because the, the Queen had a plan for the funeral, and that was not that difficult to research what was actually going to happen in that. So I researched that before I wrote it, and, uh, yeah, I changed a few bits. Um, and, um, yeah, it was a turned out to be quite accurate, I think. Uh, very accurate. Yeah. Although a lot of people predicted what would happen, I guess, with our current and real-life princes as well. Even 10, 15, 20 years ago, they kind of could see the writing on the wall a little bit. Do you agree? Um, maybe. I mean, I personally didn't see it— what, didn't see the recent um, should we call it conflict? I didn't see that coming. But, um, yeah, um, it worked quite nicely because, uh, that's kind of what I wanted for my story. So, uh, it's, uh, yeah, they've done me a favor there, I think. Well, yeah, it probably intentionally. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm sure they're fans already. Um, and what else was quite an eye-opener for me was the more intricate and dangerous concept of economic warfare, which you actually described quite easily. It was quite— I found it easy to get on board and to understand the concept. I mean, I know certain elements of it goes on, but just the concept of so many underlying themes and workings going on to put a particular country on the back foot you know, prior to taking them over and how to mess people over economically is the main tool of war. Yeah. And it's been, it's been quite interesting actually, because when you talk about imperial sort of novels and films and any sort of media, there's not really— I've not seen this done before. And it was an idea that interested me a long ago because I studied economics at university. And, um, I found the idea intriguing then. Um, and then when this sort of story started developing, I thought, well, this is a slightly different way of going about things, and I think it could be interesting for the, for the book. Um, and the tricky, the tricky thing about it is being that actually with what's going on in the world these days, particularly what's going on in America, you can see that kind of thing actually sort of starting to happen now. And, uh, It was completely fiction when it was first conceived of, but now it's not quite so fictional. It's a bit odd to see it occurring, not the way it does in the book, but so you see the beginnings of it, don't you? And it's a bit peculiar, but yeah, good, maybe good for sales, so I shouldn't complain too much. Yeah, I just find it interesting the fact that you can look out for these things. I think knowledge is power, and sometimes it's nice to know what's going on, to understand a little bit what's going on around you, um, even if it is a little bit scary. And I did say in the intro that it's a dystopian book of sorts. Do you see what I mean about that? Because it's kind of— I don't think you actually specify it a year, do you? And it can't be— no, that far in the future. But I think it's as if we started going that way a bit further back? Yeah, it's a bit— because, um, I mean, the, um, when it— when I sort of, um, got and started working with the Combo Press on it, um, they described it as dystopian, but I'd never done that really until then because to me it was just a thriller novel, um, and I sort of— when I originally set out, started writing it many years ago, um, the whole idea of having it in the near future so that you could make it more believable as to what's occurred. Um, and, um, I invented all this sort of technology. Um, and when I came to rewriting it a few years ago, once my children were a little bit older and I had the time to do it, um, actually a lot of the technology I'd invented now existed. So it was a bit— it was a little bit weird that I had to change all of the technology in it because we had everything that I'd sort of made up. Um, near enough, not quite all of it. You predicted the future. Um, but this— it— dystopian, I suppose, is the bracket it falls into. But I think, um, it's not just a dystopian novel. It's, um, it's definitely a series that's— um, I had a good description said to me the other day, actually. Um, and it was, um, somebody on social media described it as 'If the Crown, Game of Thrones, and James Bond got together and had a baby.' And I thought that was quite a good one. Who said that? Um, I was— somebody on social media. I couldn't— I couldn't tell you the name, but I quite liked it. I thought that was quite a good one. I'm gonna steal that and use that. Do you know what? I think the best thrillers out there are the ones that are way too true for life. Yeah, it's very conceivable, isn't it? Yeah. And, um, it's been, it's been quite nice because I've had quite a lot of feedback about sort of— because there's quite a lot of these sort of, um, stories out there, but nothing's quite been done like this before with the British Empire and what could have happened.