Get Booked – Tim Hind, The Luke Frankland Trilogy 200323

Welcome to today's Get Booked with me, Hazel Butterfield, for Women's and Men's Radio Station. I love doing this show, chatting to authors about anything and everything books related. And today we have a fabulous guest in store for you. Don't we always? We have on the show today the author Tim Hind, who was born in Sunderland and joined the Royal Air Force as an intelligence officer after reading law at university. And during his time in the service, he initially focused on the Middle East and then specialized in cyber warfare. He later joined Barclays Bank in a global information security role, which is going to form the background to the books that Tim has written. With stints in the Middle East and emerging markets, Tim subsequently headed up the bank's global cyber intelligence capability. He then moved to America, leading another cyber intelligence in a position of vice president within a startup cyber intelligence company that was sold in 2016. Tim is currently a director of cyber intelligence teams located in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and the Asia-Pacific regions who service clients globally in the public and private sectors. London, and when not traveling the world for business, or pleasure. He enjoys reading biographies, cooking, fell walking, and skiing. I definitely want to find out what fell walking is. Now, he has written 3 books. The first one in the series is called In the Best Interest. This is about Luke Frankland, a junior intelligence officer just home from the Iraq War, and he finds himself cast into a world of cyber espionage and state-level politics. Out of his depth and with no one in the government heeding his warnings, he forms a makeshift team and tries to establish who is waging a new kind of war from behind a keyboard. The truth will leave him plunged into an arena he little expected and where the real cost is not measured in ones and zeros but in human life. The second book he's written is called Pick a Packet or Two, and this is about when a British bank investing in emerging markets and hoping to help some of the world's poorest starts hemorrhaging money. Luke is called in to find out who is to blame. He soon finds himself in the middle of a multinational game of treachery extortion and murder. His home life should be his refuge, but that is about to get equally complicated. And the third book in the series, which we're going to be focusing on today here on GetBooked, is 2020 Hindsight. Luke is recruited solely for his reputation in cyber intelligence. Luke is meant to lend his name to a cyber startup venture, host clients and build up the sale value of the fledgling company. However, when he is targeted by a new type of social engineering, he quickly realizes that all is not as it seems in the high-tech world of commercial intelligence gathering. Thrust into an environment where corporate advantage means multi-million dollar contracts, he discovers that Some within the firm will stop at nothing to protect their share of the profits. In an increasingly dangerous game, Luke must quickly find out who he can trust and who is out to silence him. I love books like this that delve into the unknown, things that we don't always completely understand, and yet rather than the author having to do a ridiculous amount of research to gather information on the topic they're writing about, Today's author, Tim Hind, as I mentioned, he's in that industry. He has the inside skinny. It's going to be super exciting and interesting to chat to him today on the show, and I cannot wait. But this is what I love about doing this show, talking to authors, chatting about anything and everything books related, and all the joy, enlightenment, and escape that good books can provide. So sit back and let us entertain you with a different guest each week, sharing who they are, what they do, and what inspires them. Come and join us, get involved. And if you want to catch up on previous shows, you can at womensradiostation.com/shows/getbooked and on our SoundCloud. Or you can pop onto my website at hazelbutterfield.com and click on the little SoundCloud icon. Right, it is now time for today's author, Tim Hind, and I do love a dry sense of humor with my cybercrime. It definitely helps as there is a lot to keep up with in the Luke Franklin series, but you You do feel like you're gaining knowledge as the drama unfolds, and 2020 Hindsight, which is the book that we're predominantly going to be talking about today on Get Booked, covers all manner of issues from loneliness, espionage, challenging marital dynamics and coping mechanisms, to the intricacies of cyber intelligence, naturally. Luke Franklin, the main character, takes it all on the chin with a, with a huge slog of gin and copious amounts of wine to keep life palatable, or smooth the edges off, so to say. And 2020 Hindsight, the third in the series, is about where Luke is recruited solely for his reputation in cyber intelligence. He is meant to lend his name to a cyber startup venture, host clients, and build up the sale value of the fledgling company. However, When he is targeted by a new type of social engineering, he quickly realizes that all is not as it seems in the high-tech world of commercial intelligence gathering. Thrust into an environment where corporate advantage means multi-million dollar contracts, he discovers that some within the firm will stop at nothing to protect their share of the profits in an increasingly dangerous game Luke must quickly find out who he can trust and who is out to silence him. Tim, welcome to the show. Hazel, thank you for having me. It's great to be here. Do you know what? I'm so excited to chat to you because normally one of my questions in a book like this would be, oh, how much research did you have to do? This must have taken ages. But I'm guessing for you this is just knowledge that's already there because of who you are, what you do. Yeah, that's right. And I think the central character, Luke Franklin, who you alluded to, that's semi-biographical, uh, in terms of he's a flawed character, makes a lot of mistakes during his careers, but has a good progression. And so what I like to focus on, and I think bringing it to the human element of cyber, is the flaws that Luke has. And that very much reflects me in real life as well. Oh wow. I mean, the thing is, this is what I liked about the book, because it's when you don't want to read about somebody who is perfect and on the ball and doesn't make any mistakes, because it's unrelatable. And also, it's not that interesting to read about, is it? I mean, we like it when we all are a bit flawed, don't we? I think so. And people can relate to that because in, in some way, shape, or form you know, we're all flawed, no matter what filters people have these days on their social media, just kind of presenting the good side of life. It's important to look at things that really do impact us. And I think part of the thing in 2020 hindsight is that Luke is put into some pretty privileged positions as well, but it's also about staying humble and remaining grateful for those opportunities as well. So I hope both of those sides come out. They definitely did. Now, something that definitely shone through in this book is a high level of sarcasm. Now, is that you? Is that kind of you in real life as well? It was very, very dry-witted. Yeah, and I hope it's more dry wit than sarcasm because, you know, sarcasm has a place but not to be predominant, I don't think. But I do observe in the book some pretty tragic situations, some pretty absurd situations, and some situations that you'd never believe. So I think maintaining a sense of humour is important in every walk of life, and my sense of humour does tend to be quite dry versus slapstick, but I hope it doesn't come across too just sarcastic. Well, I mean, I'm a northerner, so pretty much every word out of my mouth has a tinge of sarcasm, and we say sarcasm as something positive. So I think it depends on what culture you're from that sometimes sarcasm is frowned upon, but the sarcasm I got from it I thought was endearing. Well, the good thing is, as long as you enjoy it, however you interpret it, if you enjoy the read, that means that I've hit the right spot somewhere. So I'm really pleased about that. Yeah, and I must say I loved it. There's And as I said in the intro, sometimes it's hard to keep up because there's so much information. But it would be— the novel would have to be hundreds and hundreds and thousands of pages long for you to go into so much detail about some of the elements of what you talk about, because it is— I mean, your knowledge is in-depth, but what goes on behind the scenes is incredible. I mean, I do like reading stories like this where it kind of highlights to us that we're not supposed to know as the general public about what is really going on. And a little bit about— a bit like in 2020 Hindsight when you pointed out that there's certain things that security, security providers, uh, know about. We they can't let people— they can't let the opposition know that they know about it for 20, 30 years sometimes, otherwise it can jeopardize whatever case they're on. And especially like when you were talking about World War II, and it's quite interesting to have some of these elements explained to us in more of a palatable fictional sense rather than the Daily Mail. Yeah, I think I'm glad that you've brought that out because part of what I wanted to do, as I said before, was humanize this and bring it to life to the people who are reading. And I, you know, have had a unique window into the things that I allude to, like in Whitehall behind the scenes, um, a sort of walk through GCHQ and describing what that new open-plan area was like at the time and also in the kind of banking sector as well, in the City, and a lot of international things. So I tried to paint the room for the readers so that they could get an appreciation of what's that— what that's like, having maybe not been in those situations themselves, but people are naturally curious about. And I think it helps that every chapter, every storyline is actually anchored in truth, but obviously because of Official Secrets Acts and company confidential information and people's own safety, I wasn't going to reveal all of that. So I've been able to change sort of dates and scenarios and countries, but keep loyal to the storyline. So I think that helps make it authentic as well, because the places I'm talking about where I can are places that I've genuinely been and experienced. And so it seems like that's come through to you as well as reading it. Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said people are curious about this line of work, but it would blow our minds if we actually did really understand and know what was going on behind the scenes. It would— we'd all be absolutely petrified all the time. There's— I have a lot of friends who, who get— who read the news, and they're talking about the general moral panic that the rags come out with, and I'm like, we're not allowed to know what's going on. They're just making it up as they go along just to sell the papers. If we knew, we'd all shivering wrecks in a corner. And it's— I think it's, it's nice to get a glimpse in books like this, but also leave it to the professionals to do what they're doing, and don't ask for complete transparency because it's probably too dangerous to do so. Can you imagine if we all knew what was going on? That meant— that would mean that, you know, all the countries that we're going into war with and trying to stop doing these horrendous things to us, we would— we can't share this information, can we? Yeah, and I think you're right. And I do conclude in my books, because people ask, you know, what's fact and what's fiction, and what came out to me having read, reread the books is that the fact is actually stranger than the fiction in these thrillers. The stuff that really happened is the worrying piece. And if you think, Hazel, the whole trilogy started— I know we're focusing on the third book 2020 hindsight here, but, you know, in The Best Interests, which is based on my time in military intelligence and government, you know, the whole story to tell there was about our government ignoring and sweeping under the carpet the proven state-sponsored espionage from China against the United Kingdom and its allies. And that's something that the government chose to ignore for over 20 years. And so that's really what motivated me to write that. And because of official secrets, you know, I couldn't give away all of the information. But since that happened, you know, in real life to me in the early 2000s, a lot of that has been declassified and is now in me to be able to write these things that I have to do as a cyber thriller, but with a spotlight on the truth and every story angle anchored in truth here. Well, that's the thing, isn't it? There's a fine line between accountability and protecting the nation. Exactly right, and there was a story to tell there. And with the background I've had in government and intelligence, of course there are some things that are never to be spoken about and won't be, but the state-sponsored espionage from China, and now that it's in the top 3 threats against the United Kingdom, um, that is a story that had to be told to the public so they know that successive governments of all different colors, be it yellow, blue, or red, or a coalition of two have ignored this and put national safety or our national security behind our economic and political short-term mission with China. Now, I have to ask this because you're still working within this industry. Do you walk into meetings and people say, "Great, hi Tim, how much of this is going in your next book?" No. Not at all. In fact, some people who are in my books don't even know that storylines are based on them. A lot of the characters are merged because, you know, for brevity and action, you have to keep it streamlined. So there's no one from, you know, these previous books who's come up to me and said, how come you threw us under the bus like that? Or how come you gave away that capability? That's not my style, and I wouldn't betray my clients or my company for that. And I think I've done that respectfully in these books, and in fact the organizations that I worked for had the opportunity to read the books before they were published to make sure they were comfortable. So that's a red line I'm not prepared to cross, Hazel. Well, I kind of meant it more in a tongue-in-cheek way around, you know, the water cooler or making coffee, rather than someone saying, right, Rather than throwing somebody under the bus, more, you know, somebody saying, right, okay, you know, can you name the next character after me? Or are you going to be talking about the fact that I like to get you to call me Jim instead of James? I see what you mean, and in fact I'd flip that round and say the question I get most is, well, why wasn't I in your book? That's more important rather than, am I afraid that I should be in your next book? So yeah, I see where you're coming from now, and I do get that question, but it tends to be, how come I've been left out? I think it's that favourite thing that I quite often see on the book-related Instagram posts where most authors have a sign somewhere in the house that says, beware, you are entering the house of an author. You could be in my next book if your behaviour is not what is expected. I love that. Uh, yeah, so, um, there's 3. Now what I did is, because I— because we're focusing on, um, 20/20 Hindsight, I read just 20/20 Hindsight because I was intrigued, because I think it's good sometimes to see whether— how much these books can stand alone or whether they have to be read in succession. Now what, what are your thoughts on that? Well, you know, when I first presented the manuscript to my editor, he was in a state of shock in terms of, you know, this is not one book, this is three, this is a trilogy. So to answer your question directly, you know, the first book, In the Best Interest, focuses on state-sponsored cyber espionage and my time in government and military. Pick a Packet or Two, the second book, is clearly about my time in the banking sector and how the same threats, including corporate state-sponsored espionage from China, followed me to the banking sector. And then the third book was about moving into the sort of startup environment and more commercial intelligence. So yeah, I think there is delineation between the three, and although they're meant as a trilogy, some people have read them standalone, or, you know, read book 2 first by accident, for example. So I think you can pick them up and enjoy them. Individually, but the threads that go through all three really do hopefully take you on a journey. See, that's, that's good to know because it's so it's more of a journey, but I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything that I'd missed any information by reading just 2020 Hindsight. So I think that's good to know, especially if somebody is more interested in one particular element. Maybe they're interested in the, the cyber intelligence of a startup or they're more interested in the banking element. And I think that's good because sometimes especially if people don't get the chance to read that often and they've only got one book, it's good to know that they don't have to discount all three. Yeah, and I think that by the end of book three there's a real pace going there. So I think at the end of 2020 Hindsight you get the crescendo of it, but also I write a postscript which is me speaking in real life reflecting on those 20-odd years that were covered in the trilogy, but had to be cut down in the number of years because of the pace. So yeah, I think it does stand alone, and hopefully by the end of the book there are a lot of those lessons that I picked out from my career and represented in the books that you'll also benefit from by reading the third book. What I did really enjoy, I must say, is the epilogue of 2020 Hindsight, because I kind of suspected, or I think I actually hoped that something along those lines would be discussed. Now, I can't let the listener— the listeners are going to go— have to go off and read the book to understand what we're talking about. But I love the way you kind of brought it around there, a little bit of a conspiracy theory. But is it a conspiracy theory when it's somebody who's so in the know? Well, what I, what I will say, and, you know, it's publicly available information now. You know, you look at the way China has been targeting, um, the West and its allies for information superiority. They went against different sectors, and, you know, at first it was mainly government and military, but then they did go against pharmaceuticals, uh, over a decade ago. They changed or broadened their line of attack, if you like, to extract information. So at the time, we were thinking, what— why would they be going after a competitive advantage in pharmaceuticals? Or what would like to sort of amend for their own gains. So the storyline of sort of what evolved with this espionage from China into like a global pandemic, this wasn't a shock to me. And I think what's happened, uh, especially in the investigation by the World Health Organization into what actually happened in Wuhan and how did that virus escape from there You know, there's a lot of questions still to be answered, and it wasn't passed through some bat in a cave or an animal in a market. This came out of a laboratory in Wuhan, and again, that's a story that needs to be told, and hopefully left the door open for future books that I can write on this. I find it gobsmacking that we know about Wuhan, and it's just nowhere near talked about as much. We're still kind of blaming this poor bat or a pangolin for everything. And yet the fact that there is a lot, a lot of evidence pointing towards Wuhan, and I think maybe it's that kind of hands over the ears and going la la la la, let's just pretend it was an accident. And sometimes we need that for our own sanity, and people have just honed in on that. Yeah, and if you, if you look at, say, for example, if China cut its funding from the World Health Organization, that's a significant percentage of their revenue each year that keeps them going. So they've been backed into a political corner here to give a very weak judgment on what really happened in Wuhan. I've been heartened to see the Americans come out the past couple of weeks and be more open that their assessment was that it did escape from a laboratory, which you may expect. The US to say, because obviously they're not neutral on their stance on China, but I do not believe that this virus happened because some person in China got a bit too overfamiliar with a bat. It really just doesn't stand up. This strain was modified by humans and— or it just happened because of their bad practices. It still led to the same scenario happening, but there's still a lot to be answered for by the Chinese. And I think Western leaders really need to grow a backbone and hold the Chinese government to account for this. But a bit like what I said earlier, how much should the general public know? Because it would petrify them into oblivion. So, you know, I think sometimes we're fed a story that is just easier for people to take on board, and the people in power, we have to trust them to do supposedly what is right. And it's, you know, it's that fine line, isn't it? And it's not all criticism of China, by the way. I look at certain things that China does, like having, for example, a 50-year political plan that they, you know, review every 5 to 10 years and adjust as they want. But they've got a long-term plan here. In sort of the UK, for example, we've had, what, 3 prime ministers in the past 12 months or— I mean, I don't live in the UK anymore, but to observe this political instability, and I think what the public can take away from this is that our politicians put short-term economic gain with China on like 4-year economic cycles above our long-term national security. And that's what the public really need to be very afraid about, that our naive politicians are selling us out to China for their short-term economic gain whilst they're in power that they don't then have to be held accountable for in 15 or 20 years' time when the real impact will happen on the UK and its allies. But that's the thing, isn't it? There's no particular country or government that does things better or worse. There's no one winning formula. And I think the UK shoots itself in the foot a lot of the time because they want to be told everything, and they want— we spend half of our time appeasing people when we could just be getting on with it. Whereas there are certain countries that don't let the public know absolutely anything, and they just get on with it. And, you know, it's tough. It's— I don't know what the correct answer would be, and I doubt there'll ever be somebody who completely figures it out, but people should be allowed to just get on with it without— if we could trust the government, I suppose. I agree completely. And again, you know, this is— I must caveat as well, I'm not tarring all of China with this same brush here. You heard it here, this is what Tim Hines said about China. Yeah, I mean, this is the Chinese Communist Party, the Chinese government that is doing this. And as you say, at a sort of business level and at a sort of normal people like us level, there's a lot to collaborate on. The political level, they seem to be able to mess everything up. I mean, you even look at Brexit, the kind of real mess politicians made of that. But in the background, it was business people and entrepreneurs who just got on with it, kept the lights on despite everything the politicians were throwing at them. Yeah, yeah, well, maybe if politicians were dealing with less fires and less affairs— let's not get into that too much, shall we? So I digress. I could talk about this for ages, but I think it would not fit into my Get Booked time slot. We would have to be here for hours upon hours and still not come up with a resolution, and we'd probably need as much booze as Luke Franklin needs as well. So exactly, exactly. And, and so I, I hope though that for those listening, you know, the book's been a catalyst not to talk about technology or cyber. We're talking here about the human impacts here. So I think this is exactly what I did want to bring out. But I'm sorry if I've taken your interview off course a little bit. I think I did that. The thing is, I, I could talk about it for ages, but the fact that I'm speaking to somebody who's got, as I said in the most colloquial way, the inside skinny, um, it's quite interesting to have your ear. But now, you did slightly allude to it before, that the book is a trilogy, but you would like the door to be opened for a fourth. Yeah, that's correct, in that I'm not going to keep writing indefinitely and start sort of inventing stories, but I do feel that, you know, it was pretty much 2016 to 2018 when I wrapped up writing the trilogy, and there's more to say now, and more has developed. There's a lot left over from the original manuscript that I have, and there's a lot that's happened recently in the media that really plays into things that happened in the trilogy. For example, I write a lot about Kyiv and my time in Ukraine, and of course, we just marked the one-year anniversary of Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine. In Afghanistan, I write about quite vividly the Korengal Valley in book 2, and, you know, what the coalition was doing there, and of course, since then, we've had a hasty withdrawal from Afghanistan, In book 1, you know, the first chapter's based in Hong Kong and what was happening there, and now we've seen, you know, freedom and democracy and a free press being reduced to nothing in Hong Kong. So there are things that live in the trilogy that are now actually historical reference, and that is quite easy to revisit for a 4th or 5th book, you know, to keep it real, story to tell. And I felt I'd done that in the trilogy, but the question I consistently get now is, well, where's book 4? Where's book 5? When are they coming out? And so whilst I won't keep writing indefinitely, I do feel there are maybe another 2 or 3 books there that can have real impact. I definitely would like to read the next books just to kind of get to grips with what's possibly happening in the future. Yeah, well, hopefully. And I think You know, the, the more profoundly you understand the past, the better you can see in the future. And, you know, you can tell that by the end of book 3, just looking back at the activity around what China was doing, um, around, you know, stealing information, intellectual property, and research and development from the pharmaceutical companies. It wasn't a wild leap to think that they were doing this to be able to modify some form of chemical or biological warfare. Which, you know, could turn out to be what they actually did. And they reached their objective of disrupting the world economy and people's health without even having to fire a single bullet or declare an act of war. And at the moment, no one's looking into it correctly or holding them to account. It's scary, isn't it? Which is why I think it's good to read and to put the message across about such issues. In a fictional novel because it makes it, first of all, easier to read and to understand, and possibly, as I've said before, a little less scary. What's the response been like to your book so far from the readers? What have people been saying to you about them? The response, it's actually been quite incredible in terms of The oldest people to get in touch with me have been in their 90s, and one family actually got in touch with me to say, you know, our grandfather read your book, the first book, and for his 90th birthday all he wants is your second book. So I love that in terms of— it just shows that it connects with different generations, and even people in their late teens contacting me asking when the next iterations are happening. And then people of my parents' generation who really aren't interested in computers or cyber or anything whatsoever. And books are really for people like that who know that cyber is so important in everyday life of what we do, um, but it gives them a humanized understanding of the impacts of cyber. So I have been overwhelming and Part of the most overwhelming piece for me, it wasn't actually people getting in touch with me about the cyber threat. It was people getting in touch with me about, say, drinking problems or addiction. And, you know, when you track Luke through the trilogy, I mean, you read 20/20 Hindsight, the final book, where his drinking comes to a crescendo and almost kills him, but that builds up throughout the trilogy. And a lot of people can relate to that. Even in their own lives or the lives of someone who they love or care for. And therefore, the most humbling thing for me has been actually people reaching out in terms of, well, you're clearly— the character Luke is based on you. How did you get through this? And how can you help me? So, you know, it had unintended consequences as well of people genuinely reaching out about the issues in the book. Not just the cyber threat. Well, that's why I said there were quite a few issues on loneliness as well, because Luke is a functioning alcoholic. But then you can turn that phrase on its head by how functioning was he by the end. You know, it catches up to everybody, and sometimes people are completely oblivious to how much a problem is because they're right in the middle of it. It throws on its head the whole element of the term functioning alcoholic, where Luke is supposedly a functioning alcoholic. You know, he has to save a little bit of gin or a little bit of wine from the night before to steady himself to even just get out of his hotel room on a morning. And, you know, the blasé term of functioning alcoholic, you know, means that you are completely an alcoholic but still getting on with your daily life. But it does catch up with him, and it always catches up with you. You know, we, we live and we just get a bit blasé about the whole thing. And I think it is good that it was brought to a head so that it's not normalized. I, I, I, I think you're exactly right. And You know, this phrase functioning alcoholic, it basically means that you're functioning enough that you can take your paycheck home at the end of the month, perhaps, to some people. But I prefer to actually class it as chemically dependent. You know, I was at the stage where I literally couldn't function, couldn't even have a shave or even brush my teeth, uh, until, you know, half a glass of wine. Um, and it was only when it was too late for me and I was in hospital and comforting me to die, that I realized that, you know, my body was no longer even metabolizing food. It was only metabolizing the sugar in alcohol. And, you know, when I tried to withdraw from alcohol, even one day, just waiting till 5:00 PM to have a drink, you know, I went into a massive seizure in 2017 and nearly died from withdrawal. So I would actually like to change the conversation a bit about you know, people who say to people who are drinking heavily, oh, you know, just don't drink, just don't have the first drink. But I think people have to recognize that for some people it's gone beyond that. It's, it's then a chemical dependency, and withdrawal from alcohol has a much higher death rate than any drugs, and people need to be aware of that. And I think also the medical industry has a lot to answer for as well, where I've seen a lot of people who are in a similar situation to me, and they're like, oh, we'll go and talk to a psychologist and see what the root of this is and why you pick up that first drink, at which point people are beyond that. They're already chemically dependent, and that's what they need a hand getting off. Uh, it's not to talk about what happened in your childhood that made you get to this stage. It's giving them the help to get off alcohol and not be chemically dependent, or not have to go into seizure, uh, just to get out of a misunderstood situation. I think it was a very valuable topic that you covered in a a very delicate and kind of generous way. I found it interesting as the book was wrapping up towards the end, how I wasn't expecting it to go the way it did, and I think it was beautifully done. I think I had a duty to do that in terms of the, you know, for the most part it is a cyber thriller and things have been adapted for the for the, for the sake of the novel, but with the permission of my parents and my brother, I wanted the state when Luke gets into hospital, which pretty much reflects, you know, what happened to me in hospital, I wanted that to be as brutally honest as possible, and also I wrote about the impacts, not on me, but on those who I love the most, and I think that's a part where I really had to write as genuinely as I could, because that's an element that a lot of people, you know, can relate to and do need help with. And it can be a downward spiral, and when we're on that downward spiral, that's when we pick up more elements of downward behavior and, and negative reinforcing behavior. And I think that was, that was touched on quite well as well in regards to Luke Franklin. I don't know how much of that relates to your real life experience as well, but I didn't realize that, you know, it was that close to the real life story as well. So well done you for really going into it and being quite open and honest. I'm sure that's going to help a lot of people who possibly have to go through something similar. Yeah, and the one thing that I would point out is that, you know, I was taken to hospital to die And it's weird that although I turned yellow and effectively had hepatitis through alcohol, it's weird that— and your liver's failing, it's not painful, which is strange because you've been told by a doctor that you've got 40 days to live and, you know, start preparing, and yet you're not in pain. So it's weird also that a lot of people do enjoy drinking and do it responsibly, do it socially, great, but when it really kicks in, your liver doesn't hurt, it doesn't scream at you. And so often the symptoms of liver disease or heavy drinking really only come to light when it's getting too late. And, and for me, I was 40 days away from death until there was, you know, a piece of medication that— it hadn't been legalized, but it had been trialed and it only worked on 5% of the people. And luckily the consultant who was treating me, she said, look, should we try this on you? And I said, well, at this point I only have like 30-something days to live, so let's do it. How was that? Exactly. And then when she was like, well, should we double down on this? And as you've been receptive to it, we'll put you on steroids. And that can either have no reaction it can really increase the effect of it in a good way, or it could kill you even quicker. And at that point I'm like, let's try it. And so I was fortunate that I was able to, to go through that and I recovered fully. And now, you know, after 6 months they sent me for a Fibroscan to see if I would need a liver replacement. And actually my liver's not scarred anymore. There's no cirrhosis, there's not even a fatty liver. And I was very lucky that my liver completely regenerated to the extent now it looks like a teetotaler's liver. So after the treatment, the current state of your liver is, you know, that of a teetotaler? That's right. It's incredible what can happen to an organ like the liver in that it can rejuvenate, regenerate, and rebuild itself to the extent that, you know, I've got no scarring, I've got no cirrhosis. I lost a lot of weight since I stopped drinking, and there's not even a fatty liver anymore. But there's no way out. Well done you, we do need to say well done you actually, because that's, although it needed to happen, it's not always as easy as said and done, is it? Well, I appreciate you saying that, but in some ways I feel like I've had an easy ride compared to some people, in that, you know, I did go into hospital to die, but I came out the other side and I've never had a drink since, and that's nearly— well, next month it'll be 5 years. But I've never been to an AA meeting, for example. I've never been to rehab. I've never had to have sort of counseling for this. I just knew when I came out of hospital that I had a new lease of life and that I had to respect that. And so I've never gone back to it, but I do live in fear, and I'm sure many people listening to this can relate that if I had a craving again, like I had, you know, those years leading up to when I went into hospital, like each day, I don't know if I could fight those cravings. And I'm just glad I don't have them anymore. But I really respect people who've had to go through, you know, the counseling, through rehab, through AA meetings, and who have relapsed. I have nothing but respect and sort of admiration for those people who have to keep trying. But in my own way, I do feel that I seem to have an easy ride of it and that people go through a lot more than I do. But hopefully in sharing my experience, and a lot of people don't talk about this because of the stigma and the shame of it, whereas I feel life's too short for that. And I, I'd like to talk more about it because the more you talk about it, the more you're helping other people, and that's what's important. I completely agree, and thank you so much as well for opening up. I think a lot of people will relate to what you've got to to what you've had to say. And for a lot of people, every day is a battle, or every scenario is something that can just throw anything off. And I think it, you know, the more that we all understand each other's battles and worries, the more we can help each other as well. And thank you for also bringing it, bringing the subject to us in 2020 hindsight as well, and in the best interest of Pick A Pocket or two. Just to point out to our listeners, they can pop on to timhein.co.uk to find out a little bit more about you, maybe connect with you, make sure they can go and buy the books, and, uh, connect with you on social media as well. It's been an absolute joy chatting to you, um, and I do normally ask a couple of questions to my guests, but we're running out of time because We've been chatting away like no one's business and I've loved it, but there's one question, one of the two questions I'd really like to ask you, and that is who you admire in the public eye, because I think that's going to be— I'd be quite intrigued to find out who that would be for you. That's a really tough question, but one thing that springs to mind I think is probably Salman Rushdie, who having himself written novels but written in a way, the truth. You know, he was under a fatwa, uh, by the Iranian clerics. And when he went to speak about his books last year, you know, he was— someone tried to stab him to death because of his beliefs. And he survived that. Uh, he's blind in one eye, but he will continue to talk. And, you know, I respect the fact that an author's put his life on the line and for decades now still spoken truth in the face of religious fanatics and people who'd be out to silence him. And with the subjects I've written about, I can relate to that and threats that I've had. So I think being put on the spot, Hazel, and not knowing that question before, the first person— Salman Rushdie. Well, I'm sorry for putting you on the spot, but I must say you completely hit the answer out of the park. So that's great. Thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked today, Tim, and congratulations with the book. And I can't wait for book 4, 5, and 6. Let me know when they're coming out. Fantastic. Well, next time we speak, I'll let you know. Brilliant. Thank you so much for joining us on Get Booked for Women's and Men's Radio Station. Destiny, Luke, that's what it is. Destiny. So, what do you say? It took a moment before I realised he was asking me if I'd come and work for him without any further explanation as to the job. I almost laughed, but managed to drown the noise by taking a drink. "Yeah, that's all great, but doing what exactly? What's the business plan?" Mack leaned forward and tilted his head in a way that reminded me of a Labrador somewhat confused by a word of command. "The job? Didn't I explain it on that first call with you?" No, not at all. You told me you had started a company called 20/20 Security Incorporated, and you told me it would be a groundbreaker in terms of commercially available cyber intelligence. But that's it, Mac. I'm still in the dark as to what the plan is or what my job would be. I assume you want me to set up an intelligence gathering division, much like I did in the military and at the bank, but that's all I have, an assumption. The business plan is simple. I am going to turn 20/20 into the world's leading provider of commercial cyber threat intelligence products. Our clients will be governments and the biggest companies on the planet, and we will be their key enabler in avoiding cyber scams and cyber attacks through predictive intelligence. We are going to get more major clients than any of the other fledgling providers out there, 'And we are going to be regarded as the best in the field. Once I've done that, I intend to sell the company as a going concern. If I can't sell it privately, then I'll float it on the stock market, but private will be quicker and easier, more efficient. I intend to make myself a second fortune, and if you come help me, I'll make you rich too, son.' What value Mac gave to a second fortune was left unsaid, But the idea made me draw breath. This would be major money. But he still hadn't got to the crux. "You want me to recruit the best team—" "No, son, I want you to make the client base wide and deep. I need your name to attract the clients. The best clients. You will be schmoozing them, hosting them, splashing cash on them." 'All the things I used to do with my high rollers, but you'll be doing it with the heads of the departments at most risk from cybercrime. I want you to wine and dine them and at the same time show them how much money they could save their business by paying us to provide predictive intelligence on potential attacks.' My 'speciality' was pulling a disparate team of technically savvy and intelligence-aware individuals together so they could provide top-notch cyber intelligence in into the mix. I had, on occasion, got far more involved in the anti-cybercrime operations than I would have preferred, but I had never been asked to be the known name in the room. In fact, since my days as a military intelligence officer, being the grey man in any room was much more my thing. That said, I'd been fairly certain I was going to take whatever job he offered when I'd stepped on board the plane, So I was in. All I had to do now was to remember the skills my mentor at the bank, Pat Harris, had taught me about the subtle art of deal negotiations. Okay, I said, eyeing Mac. How much? The business is currently privately held with employee-owned share options. You'll come on board as an executive partner with the shareholdings appropriate to that level. 'And I'll double your salary from the bank. When we sell, you get your share value paid out in cash. Agreed?' I forgot all Pat had ever told me. 'Agreed.' That was an extract from 2020 Hindsight by the author Tim Hind, today's guest on Get Booked. Thank you so much for listening in to today's show. I hope it's entertained and enlightened many of you. And as ever, now we are going to finish off the show with a little bit of a sneaky peek on last week's show. Have a fabulous rest of your day. Okey-smokey. As mentioned earlier in the show, I love the idea of visiting a place, absorbing a part of that journey, and writing an ode based on how it made you feel and what sparked within you. Personally, when I go on holiday, and as I mentioned, I like to go on holiday on my own, I find random places so inspiring to write anything, whether it's poetry or just your feelings, you know, writing in your diary, anything. I find it hugely inspiring, and I love that Anja Mojic has actually produced Love Letters to Places kind of based on this concept as well. And here to talk to us more about this is the author of Love Letters to Places, Anja. Hi, Thank you for joining us. Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's nice to be here. You are very welcome. You, you do realize that of, of all the holidays I'm supposed to go on this, this year, I quite often— my kids go away with their dad for a couple of separate weeks a year, and I, I kind of try and be sociable. But after reading Love Letters to Places, I'm like, where shall I go on my own and just read and write? It's a bit like that. It's a bit like that, yeah. Just like— and, and yeah, I guess also, but to make you feel better, this was kind of a decade's worth of travel, so it wasn't— it's not like I'm, you know, on the road all day every day. I mean, sometimes I am, but yeah, this was a bit of a longer journey. So, well, do you know what though, it's, it's nice to go all over the world and experience it, but sometimes I think this book also serves as a good reminder that sometimes we just need to be in our own space to take in our surroundings and see how it makes us feel. And whether you write that put on a blog or you write it down on the back of an envelope just to kind of express your feelings. It's completely down to individual feeling at that particular time. And I think it sparks the right amount of creativity and kind of taking on what you've experienced, but at the same time just reminding us to just let our feelings rip sometimes. Yeah. And that's how really this book started was really like the very first starting points were just very old journal entries from, you know, moments where I was traveling alone and I had a lot of time, whether it was on buses or trains or whatever, and in cars. And just, yeah, using it, I guess, as a way of expressing, but also a bit of self-care. And just like, I just— I'm the kind of person where I just always want to remember everything, you know. I just want to like hold on to these memories. So that's really how it started. It was a very simple, simple beginning. To the book. So yeah, yeah, I love that. That definitely came across. And I think there are different— there's something in the, in the book for, for everybody, whether they've visited the area or they want to, or they wanted to get inspired. But also, it's also reining in that cathartic nature of expressing what's going on in our minds sometimes, even if you're just in the café on the end of the road. It's, you know, anywhere can inspire you. And absolutely, to kind of do it on your own sometimes as well, because it's a lot harder to let the kind of the feelings inside of you come out onto paper when you've got your kids with you, your dog with you, your partner with you. Yeah, Tom, Dick, Harry, anybody really. Yeah, but I, I do, I have, as I've gotten older and I've begun to travel with, you know, my parents or a partner or a friend or whatever, I do have moments where I just sort I guess with people that know me really well, I'll just say, I just need to like stop, drop, and go into a corner and like record something into my phone or like write something down. Or just like, because for me, I guess after a while it also becomes a bit of a technical practice, you know. If you know that you have a book coming or you need to write, it sort of, it becomes like a mix of inspiration but also really like seeking and searching for those moments and then just being ruthless in recording them. And I think that's where a bit of discipline comes in, you know, even when you're tired or when there's people around or you're busy, like taking the time to just do a little bit of writing every day when you're on a trip or just, you know, as you say, tiny little moments you can get, you can really like juice them like an orange, you know, for detail and for nuance. So yeah, it becomes quite a nice practice. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, it's a good reminder as well that sometimes we need to give ourselves, even if it is just 15 minutes, reflection time and a bit like, I know it sounds, it sounds a bit uncouth, but like a brain dump. Whatever's going on in that brain, get it down, you know, get— absolutely. And for once as well, don't use your iPad, get out a pen and paper. Yeah. Oh, I love that, I love it. Yeah, yeah, it's— and I think it's, for me, I mean, it is, there were things in this book where I did sort start with maybe a sentence from 10 years ago in a journal, and I created something out of it. But I do find now that often you say, I'll write it down later, but when you're in that moment, it can be really hard to recreate that exact moment later. So I try to always just remember, you'll thank yourself if you just do it now quickly, even if it's just like, as you say, a dump, like just some words or just some, like, just an idea. It's a really nice practice and a habit to get into, I find, if you are interested in that kind of writing. Yeah, it's quite rejuvenating though as well. I find out, you know, if I need to kind of Ctrl+Alt+Delete before a weekend, if I go sit in a cafe somewhere with pen and paper, or, you know, you can use your iPad, whatever you want to do, or, you know, whatever, whatever you, however you choose to write. I just find it kind of resets me ready for possibly having to be sociable. Yeah, totally. Absolutely. Yeah. And it just enhances, I guess, the way you experience, and everyone has a different way that they like to experience a place or an event. Or, and yeah, for me, I just, I really, I've always loved to just record things this way. But, you know, there's so many other amazing ways— painting and photography and even just being present sometimes. You know, there are times when I say I'm just not going to write anything, this will just be mine, and I'll just be present, and that's that. Um, yeah, because those experiences, I think, yeah, yeah, we so struggle with it these days, and it does take practice. Yeah. Yeah, and also, like, I feel like after this book especially, I found myself getting to a point where you get almost a bit obsessive. It's like, can I— because, you know, once you start, I guess, creating a product, let's say, which a book is, when you start thinking of it as a whole work and a product, it's like you start trying to capitalize on moments, and you have to find that balance of being present and not trying to, yeah, create something out of absolutely everything, because it can, it can unravel. Well, for me anyway, I have to really remind myself to Yeah, to be a bit more choosy or something. Um, let's let things just kind of organically flow as well. Yeah, yeah, I love that. And so the book came out in 2022, is that correct? Yes, so today's actually the book's one-year birthday. It came out on this day last year. Yeah, so this is like a nice coincidence that we're doing this interview, having a little birthday party. Um, well, happy birthday! I hope you're celebrating it. You're in Paris at the moment, aren't you? I'm in Paris at the moment. I'm here working on the next book. I'm very excited. I— yeah, it's, it's, it's wild. This, you know, this all kind of happened. It took a long time, but in a way it happened really quickly as well. And so I'm just like trying to work on the next one, but also reflect on everything this one's been through. And yeah, and then life, you know, happens and it's all, it's all just, yeah, just letting it all unravel, which has been really nice. What's the response been like in the last year then to the book? Do you know what, it— I honestly was so, um, I'm really lucky. The, the pre-order period was incredible. I had such incredible, um, not just, you know, not just with people supporting the book, but also taking the time to write to me with feelings and responses. And it was such a beautiful variety of feedback, and it really fueled the things I want to do for the next book and the way that I allowed myself to process this first book. And since then, it's just been ongoing, and it's been so nice because, you know, you write this book and then you let it go, and it's really, really challenging for you to let it go. It honestly feels like— I mean, I'm not a mother, but I feel like I birthed a child because it was really challenging for me to let go and have it, yeah, have its own life experience in the world.