Get Booked – Gabriella Braun, All That We Are 270323

Hello, my lovelies! Welcome to Get Booked. I'm your host, Hazel Butterfield, and I have so much in store for you today. Joining us in a bit on the show, we have the author Gabriella Braun talking to us about her recently released book, All That We Are: Uncovering the Hidden Truths behind our behaviour at work. Try as we might, we cannot leave part of ourselves under the pillow with our pyjamas when we go to work. We bring all that we are, hence the title of the book. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this book and identifying with it in so many ways. In this collection of stories, Gabriella shares insights from over 20 years of taking psychoanalysis out of the therapy room and into the staff room. It shows why a board loses the plot, nearly causes their company to collapse, and how they came through. We see the connection between a headteacher's professional and personal loss. We understand seemingly unfathomable behaviour why a man lets his organization push him around, a lawyer becomes paranoid, a team repeatedly creates scapegoats, and founders of a literary agency feud. At a time that we are rethinking the workplace, All That We Are shows that by taking human nature seriously, we can build more humane organizations where people and their work can Rive. We're going to be talking to Gabriella shortly, a little bit more in depth on this book. And it is something that I'm so looking forward to because it is one of those books that really made me sit back and think, and it's quite a unique delivery, a unique narrative for this kind of, I suppose, self-help book. So yeah, listen into that one. Now also, I've just released a new book review blog on hazelbutterfield.com. Please feel free to go and check it out. But a couple I want to tell you about are books to send you on a journey or to come along with you. The first book I want to tell you about is Shooters by Giulia Boggio. This is such a fun book. The majority of industries have an incestuous undertone at the best of times, and photography certainly is no different. Well, apart from the intimate nature of the work, romantic settings, and celebrity lifestyle, but other than that, obviously. Sometimes we need to break patterns in our behavior to get different results, to break away from what is not working for us. But then again, it isn't always down to our behavior, and we need to explore the possibility of something new not going the same way as past relationships. Stella is a deliciously feisty, sexy, warm, and driven, yet totally clumsy character who is determined to become a successful wedding photographer, so long as she doesn't become distracted by old patterns of behavior that has not served her well. The whole book is full of strong characters, especially the women, and yet they're all fallible. They have these quirks that make them human and relatable, and we need more of that. That is Shooters by Julia Boggio. Another book that I read, uh, recently, which just made me want to go and visit Fiske, is, um, Holiday Read by Taylor Cole. And what I loved about this book is its heartwarming propensity to help us see that we can choose our family, that we can curate what works for us, that best friends and family can show up for us in many different ways and help us to see our worth. Anything less, and we should and can choose our boundaries. People who don't respect that likely have an ulterior motive and not our best at heart, and we need to try and find ways to identify that. When surfer Candice moves from Hawaii, of all places, to Cornwall, she's not just escaping her cheating and controlling husband, she's in search of her dad, her roots, what to do with her life, but more importantly, I'd say, find herself. Sometimes when we're looking for something, we're too blinded by our obsession of it. I'm also booking my trip to Bistrol now, as I mentioned, because it just sounds incredible. Uh, possibly one of the posh DFL-style homes, because they sound incredible, although they seem to annoy the locals. But yeah, brilliant holiday read by Taylor Cole. Another book that I read and really loved was The Prisoner's Wife by Ali Blood. Emma is the victim of coercive abuse. The story follows the standard abuser's pattern of showering their victim with love, give them everything they want and more, then slowly take away anything that gives them autonomy and outside friendships. It's slow, so slow that you don't know it's happening until you've dug a hole. Gradually making excuses for the change. Let's not look ungrateful, huh? And isolate yourself. To the outside world, life is perfect, so who would believe you anyway? But then your abuser gets sent down for 5 years after the law finally catches up with what transpires as London's most dangerous crime family leader. You'd think that gave you a break and a way out, No, this is when it all implodes. However, it is nice when sometimes the trash takes itself out. Brilliantly written, I absolutely loved it. That's The Prisoner's Wife by Ali Blood. All of my book reviews on hazelbutterfield.com provide a little link so you can either find the author or go and buy the book on various places, from Waterstones to Amazon, or buying directly from the author sometimes as well. The next book I want to tell you about is a past guest on Get Booked. It is The Fear by Christiana Spence. Fear comes in many forms and plays out in many ways, not always easily spotted by anyone, especially ourselves. However, a state of fear often perpetuates more fear in other areas of our lives, like a disease or dis-ease. It infects who we trust, how we progress, develop, nurture ourselves and others, and how we stick with destructive patterns or live in a constant state of managing coping mechanisms. It's exhausting, it's unhealthy, and it's not always easy to recognize. The Fear by Christiana Spence uses her own experience to help us understand and identify our fears individually, and as a society, and how they may be controlling us to our detriment. Using philosophy, art, popular culture, poetry, and much more, a varied and thorough breakdown of fear to help us understand, identify, and build upon. Another book I want to tell you about, which was, uh, another recent guest actually on Get Booked, is Wilder Journeys, edited by Laurie King and Miriam Lanswood. Many of us feel the need to escape the chaos and incessant noise of life, and what better place to do it than in nature? Forest bathing, digital detoxes in a countryside setting, silent retreats, and even good old camping are great ways that we're trying to embed nature back into our lives for those of us that have possibly lost it. However, these are short-term quick fixes. Wilder Journeys follows this notion to intense levels of nature absorption that results in a variety of profound connections that the contributors have experienced and share with us. Nature is stunning, and too many of us take it for granted and see very little of it, opting to swoon over nature posts on Instagram. But let's delve into the incredible journeys of those that did it in real life, and maybe it will inspire you. Wilder Journeys— go and find out a little bit more about them on Instagram at @wilder.journeys. Joining us now on Get Booked is today's guest, Gabriella Brown, with her book on uncovering the hidden truths behind our behavior at work. While reading this book, I recognized a lot of patterns both relevant to work or personal life, and often overlapping. It is rare for our behavior to be isolated to work or home. I really found the non-fiction self-help yet relatable narrative delivery style of All That We Are a great benefit to humanizing all that we experience at work for those on all levels of the rung how the similarities of work situations can replicate issues we struggle with and bat against in our personal life, especially inherent issues from childhood that are hard to decipher. Our trauma has many unconscious outlets. As managers or company owners, the responsibility to succeed and care for our employees is immense. Blame gets thrown about to express our many worries for ourselves and each other. We need to learn to unpack and communicate. Most of us just want to feel heard, appreciated, and excel in whatever way we choose. That is, helplessness is destructive, whether that is in work or our personal life. Thank you so much, Gabriella, for joining us on the show, and congratulations on the release of the book. Oh, thank you very much, Hazel. Thank you for inviting me. It's lovely to be here. Well, do you know what, as I said in the, in the intro, the book is so relatable. You kind of feel like you're reading fictional stories, but it's real life just put across to you rather than in very strict case studies, which is always not always that easy to not only relate to, but to digest properly. It feels a little bit too, too stagnant. And I love what you've done. I totally agree. And I worked really hard actually to get stories, you know, to get good at writing stories. I had to learn how to write stories. And they're anonymized and they're composite stories to protect confidentiality, of course. But nonetheless, there's a huge amount of fact within a story form. Yes, that definitely came across. And also your own personable style came across as well, because it's your work as well. And, you know, even coaches can make mistakes, or they can suddenly be triggered by something, or, you know, we don't always get it right first time when we're trying to decipher what's going on in a complete stranger's mind or a dynamic at work. And You know, it's often trial and error, and I love how that came across in— well, it was just, it was just very human, and I think we need a little bit more of that to help people identify and see why it's so important. That's really lovely to hear. I did feel that it was really important to be myself, given that the book's called All That We Are. I need to bring me to the book as well, and I need to show my, my humanity and my vulnerability. Because otherwise, why am I suggesting to other people that they need to look at that in themselves and show some of that if I wasn't prepared to do it myself? Completely. Yeah. How about telling our listeners a little bit about who you are and your experience in this department? Okay. So I work with leaders with teams across very, very different organizations, corporates, arts and culture, health, education, et cetera. And I coach individuals, but I also work a lot with teams. And what I do that's a little bit different is that I apply psychoanalytic and systemic thinking to really uncover the hidden truths behind our behavior at work. And that means looking— particularly the psychoanalytic means really trying to take on board what is going on unconsciously that is affecting us all the time, in and out of work, of course, because it's part of who we are. There's a lot of projection going on in the way that we behave at work. And when we, we sometimes think that it's somebody else's issue or somebody else that's treating us unfairly, when in fact they've just triggered a past memory or a past pattern, and we can kind of run with it and it can get a little bit uncontrollable, can't it? And if we don't sometimes sit back or, or like, or have the help of a coach to break it down and, and tell us that actually maybe they weren't doing something to try and be underhand or to disappoint you in some way, shape, or form. Everybody's got something going on. And, you know, even this week at one of my jobs, I was, I was like getting really annoyed with my colleagues because I felt like I was losing control of what was going on. And then I realized I was letting it get all out of control, and it was just, it was a past issue that really triggers me and sends me off in a spiral when in fact, you know, I think one of them was just having a bit of a poor day and wanted to be quiet, and I saw that as a slight myself, and we can just, we can run with these unconscious thoughts and exacerbate a situation that actually could blow over, or a bit of communication can solve it. Exactly right. Um, we do get, our buttons get pressed in different ways, and often we're unaware that a button is being pressed. Yeah. And that's when it can go a bit out of control in our head. So it spins into all sorts of places, like it's Exactly as you say, that you might have felt slighted when nothing— there was no intentional slight at all. It was in your head. And we can all do that. And things can go wrong, but it can be so helpful if we can, like it sounds you were able to do, stop ourselves and catch ourselves and kind of think, hang on, hang on, hang on. Is this my stuff? Is this, is this really happening? Does the other person mean to do that to me? 'Or is it my stuff?' And, and equally thinking, 'Hang on, what— this person isn't normally like this. What, what's going on for them?' So try and also be compassionate to other people rather than immediately taking umbrage or whatever. It can be a minefield though, because unfortunately many of us do work in toxic environments, and we don't all have great bosses or people that can communicate properly what is going on. Also, with the— as managers, sometimes they can't communicate everything because it would be to the detriment of the employees if they knew anything and everything that was going on. It's sometimes managers, CEOs, they have to put out fires to protect their staff. And so people are left in the dark, but also There's nothing to say that, you know, Jenny on reception has to tell people when she's dealing with a health issue because she wants— it's her own personal business, but it is going to affect the way that she works. But if people did know, they'd probably treat her better. But that's, that's a lose-lose situation because nobody's getting to do what they— what feels comfortable with them. And sometimes we retreat into ourselves when something's going on because As I said before, it triggers something. There's so many things that go on, and there's not much we can do about it. And in, and in that situation, that's when it's good to enlist the help of a coach to help us unpack that and find different ways of coping, I suppose. I think that's right. It can be very helpful to enlist the help of a coach, either with teams. I mean, I, I don't consider what I do with teams to be coaching. But of course you can do team coaching, and that can be very helpful, or with individuals. But I think also organizations can do a lot to try and make things a little bit less of a minefield. And it is a huge minefield, exactly as you say. I mean, we all— we can't avoid bringing all that we are to the workplace. Because that's who we are and it comes with us and we can't leave it behind and pack it under the pajamas with us, with, you know, when we go to work. Pack it under the pillow is what I'm trying to say, with our pajamas where we go to work. It just doesn't work like that. But I know it doesn't, it just doesn't. But if we can recognize that we are complex and we all are complex and we have constructive parts and we have a destructive part. We have differing pulls within us that can pull against each other. So that conflict can be internal and unconscious as equally as it's external, the conflict between people. And I think if, if bosses, and some bosses, as you say, are not very good, some workplaces are very toxic, but there are plenty of bosses who would like to help their staff, but perhaps more than they feel able to. And sometimes it can just be a simple thing like creating spaces where people can check in together without always having a strictly timed agenda, a business agenda. So Jenny on reception, if she wanted to, could say, actually, I'm not having a great week, I'm dealing with a health issue. She might not want to, but she might, and that might be enough just to say that, not anymore. And then people will treat her a bit differently. It's hard though, isn't it? There's so many people do struggle to open up like that, but even just the slightest recognition sometimes. I mean, occasionally I need to retreat. I sometimes get a bit low, whether it's hormonal or just things that are happening at home. And occasionally someone will say, oh, you look a bit miserable today. I'll just say, honestly, I am a bit. I prefer to just keep myself to myself rather than annoy anybody or come across as Mardy and make problems worse. And they'll just go, yeah, fair point, I get it. Songs we know. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And then they probably also know that this is a day where you would rather be left to yourself, and they won't intrude. And they won't take it as a slight, which they might do otherwise. Yeah, and, and, but also it is nice sometimes when there's so much going on at work. I like how quite a few of, um, the instances you talk about in All That We Are, you're just— you're not just— you are a conduit for a lot of companies and for groups to kind of air their grievances rather than talking at their colleagues and being confrontational, you kind of, for them to go through you, it makes it a little bit easier, even though they're all in the same room. Oh, totally. It does make it easier. And I have, you know, partly I bring an outsider's perspective and I'm neutral and I'm not one of the groups. So that of course makes it easier. And also I've got years of training and years of experience. So I can guide them through very difficult conversations in a way that they wouldn't be able to do on their own because it would just get overheated and flinging all sorts of things at each other. And they, they can do some of the overheating with me, and I, I let them to an extent because otherwise you can't see what the issues are if you just stop it. Well, but it's managing it. It's managing it. Exactly, it's managing it. Yeah, I did like, um, one of the stories, uh, what would you call them, stories, case studies? I say stories because they feel like stories, the way that they come across. Yeah, yeah. And I loved it how you actually managed to break down, um, what was going on with one of the clients where they were just constantly miserable and constantly being that kind of bug in the system who just— they just didn't want to be there. And you said, do you want to be there? No, I hate it! Leave then! Well no, but sometimes you need to break it down if people are that miserable, they need to leave. If they're not that miserable and they've just got into an unhealthy pattern of being negative and they really do wanna stay there, then they need to focus on that and try and reform pathways and their relationship with their job if they genuinely want to stay there. And sometimes we just need to break down what it is we're really thinking. And we do build unhealthy habits, you know. We know that having that bar of chocolate after dinner isn't going to be the best— oh well, after lunch— is going to give us a slump. But it's an unhealthy habit that's just sitting there waiting to happen. And we know things are wrong and we know things aren't going to work in our best interest, but it's just— it's a neural pathway that's been formed that has to be retrained, and that's why we need to learn to communicate in one way or another, whether it's with our colleagues, our family, ourselves. You know, I'm a huge advocate for if you don't want to speak to somebody else, write it down, decipher your thoughts, like kind of like a brain dump. And just the more we engage with what's going on with our brains, with other people, or just with pen and paper, the more we can kind of understand ourselves a little bit more and help ourselves. I absolutely agree. I think the more we become aware of ourselves and our own triggers and our own patterns and some of the contradictory parts within us, the more agency we have over what we're doing rather than just being controlled by those unconscious patterns. If we can bring some of them a bit to consciousness, we're much more in charge of them. I absolutely agree. And then I think the story that you're talking about was with a center where they were treating addicts. Yeah. Is that the one? Yeah. And that people addicted, men addicted to drugs or alcohol. And what finally became clear in the staff team was that several of the staff were addicts in recovery. And I finally realized that they transferred their addiction on a substance to an addiction on the organization. And there was this one guy who was just so contemptuous of the organization. Yeah. And I started to say, you know, it must be so painful to be here, think it's so bad, and not be able to leave. And eventually he left. And it was best thing for him. And best thing for the organization and the other team, because it was very poisonous, his contempt. But he hadn't been able to recognize his pattern. And then he did start to realize, oh my God, I hate it. Why am I so stuck? And then he unstuck himself. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing is, other people's negative behavior sometimes is toxic, and other times It's just a bit upsetting and anxiety-inducing, a bit like the situation with the deputy headteacher where she had— she was about to lose essentially her best friend at work, but she'd also lost— was losing her husband as well to an affair. So it's not, you know, he's, he's not going completely, but he's completely abandoned her, and everyone was anxious about the effect on her, and it was affecting how people would treat her and how they would deal with the situation. And she was not doing anything wrong, she was just in a really horrible situation that everybody else could— was absorbing. Exactly. And also she wasn't telling her senior team, for very understandable, obvious reasons. Yeah. Um, but what she wasn't realizing is how they were picking up that things weren't okay with her, and it was causing them a lot of anxiety. Yeah. And when we worked together and I saw her on her own, I saw the deputy on, on his own, um, and I saw the team, and gradually she said more to them, and then, and they also said more to her, like, we're worried about you, and, and it was It was so helpful, and she was doing absolutely nothing wrong. Yeah, it was a great leader. Her leadership was a bit off-color at that time because she'd got so much going on, and she was trying to lead the school through change. And of course, she was going through intense change herself, and change always brings about loss, and she was going through terrible loss. So of course it was hard for her to lead this big change program in the school. But, but she did, and they got there, and they managed to work their way through it and acknowledge the loss, including the loss of the deputy leaving. The thing is, our home life and our work life are probably the most, the two most prominent areas of our life. Yeah. And they do intertwine, even if we don't know that they do. And yeah, they're the two things that you possibly need to work on. Otherwise, you take these anxieties home, you know, if it's not going well at work and you take it out on your family unconsciously. We don't necessarily, we don't want to do that. We, there is, we really need to find a way to be able to help what's going on within our psyches and try our best. The more we understand, I say this regularly on the show, the more we understand ourselves the more armed we can be. Yes, totally. Totally agree. And I think the book has a variety of different stories, enough for somebody to identify, for anybody to identify with. But I am quite intrigued, um, which is your favorite story in the book? Oh gosh, I've never been asked that before. Um, I don't know. I'm very— I suppose I do really like that one that you mentioned about the school, and I also really like one called Life and Death. I really like that one. Um, Life and Death, is that the one towards the end? Let me just have a— no, it's much nearer the beginning. It's actually And it's an organization, it's actually chapter 3, and it's an organization that's been closed down. Oh, right, yeah, with the teenagers. Yes. Yeah, okay. But actually, I have to say, I'm rather fond of the chapter stories. I mean, I spent so much time with them that I am fond of them. And then some of them, like the one Belonging, which is chapter 9, is absolutely my own story, and that was a big surprise to me, to include myself as much as I did in the book. That must have been quite cathartic, writing about that, because it explains so many unconscious issues that possibly determine the way you react to certain people and situations. Absolutely. And then I'm, I'm more in the book later on in, in some stories much later on, I'm fully there again, not just my reactions in my work, but me in my personal personality. But Belonging was the first chapter I consciously suddenly thought, oh, maybe I should write this from first person. Yeah. And I, you know, I've had a very thorough— I've been a patient in psychoanalysis, so I know myself pretty well, very well. But you're right, it nonetheless— writing that chapter was still cathartic. Yeah, I, you know what, there was— I think I took something from nearly every story, but the one that kind of got me because it was the most simplistic in theory was kindness, because we, we forget how easy and free it is. It costs nothing to be kind and just And, and the altruistic nature of kindness can boost ourselves as well. Yes, absolutely. I think because if we, if we're kind, we are, we're coming from our constructive part. And that, of course, that gives us something back. We feel good about ourselves when we're being constructive like that. So you're absolutely right, it does boost us and it doesn't cost us anything. And it can make such a difference. I mean, my— part of my reason for writing this book is that I've seen so much distress and damage in workplaces, so much poor mental health caused by difficulties in the workplaces and toxic workplaces. And I really wanted to do something that could contribute just a tiny bit to humanizing the workplace and trying to bring out our best parts, not our worst parts. And kindness is absolutely up there with that. Kindness and compassion. We always remember how somebody makes us feel, don't we? Yes. Yes. I'm keen to know, this isn't the only book you've got in you, is it? No, I don't think it is the only book. Although the next book is proving extremely difficult, and I've been trying to write a novel, in fact, and so far it's going very badly. Right. We'll see. But sometimes, I mean, it was probably the work was already there for this book. You already knew what you were writing about. You'd already come across the case studies and you had to put yourself into it, which was probably the hardest part, but the core information was there. But I think sometimes we put pressure on ourselves and you just keep on writing And eventually you'll find a flow, and sometimes you've just got to accept that you're going to throw 20,000 words out, but you know it's the right thing to do in the long run. You might throw 60,000 words out. Oh, please don't say that! But it is the right thing to do in the long run, yes. I mean, this book, I dread to think how many words I threw out, but I came In the end, I comforted myself by thinking, well, every word I write is kind of practicing the skill of writing. So it's not wasted even if I throw huge numbers of words out. I've been practicing and I've been getting better at the craft. And I think I do believe that, actually. I do think that's right. It's practice. It's practice. Exactly. Exactly. Well, I think I mean, it depends, it depends on how you actually write as well. I mean, personally, I was a huge fan of, when I was writing my book, of sitting in the most random cafes and bars with a glass of wine or the strongest cup of coffee, and it was the best process for me. But it then didn't feel like lost time because I was also out and about and involving myself in society. So it kind of was a win-win, and it made me feel more at ease with if I had to throw some of it out because it still felt like I was doing something. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. It does depend on the process. I spent a lot of— I mean, I took years to write this book, and it's turned into a very different book from where it started. And I spent a lot of time initially in cafes as well with very Espressos are my thing. And then when I got the deal from the publisher, it was the 7th of February 2020. We had no idea what was about to hit us. And at that point, the publisher took me on, on the basis of a very thorough proposal and 3 sample chapters, and I had to write the rest, in fact, under lockdown. I had a year to write the rest. So all the café going went out the window. In fact, I'd stopped the café going before actually, because suddenly I needed the absolute quiet of my office rather than a café. And the book that is now out there was written— because the hardback came out a year ago and now we're into the paperback— so it was all written under the all those lockdowns. Yeah, I mean, I would have— I had to wait for the lockdowns to end to carry on writing my book because I needed to be in those cafes and bars and be separated from the kids and the dog kind of wanting everything from me. Yeah, yeah, I understand that. So much of that depends on what's going on in our different environments, doesn't it? Yeah. Now, weirdly, I've just— obviously you were published by Little Brown, which is, um, via Peiatticus. Yeah. Have you read Judy's book? I haven't. Ah, because I think it's something that you would relate to a lot. I think you'd be able— I think you'd take a lot from it. It's called Ahead of Her Time. She's actually been on Get Booked before, and it is about the dynamics of work. I mean, she was— she, she set up Little Brown at a time when— Piatkowska, and sorry, and she sold it on. And she— the way that she did it back in a time when women weren't supposed to be in charge and having, you know, running the home, running a successful business, and taking no nonsense and everything that kind of came with that. It's interesting, her story. It's, it's quite entertaining. Oh, I must read that. Thank you. I really enjoyed it. It's kind of part autobiography but also, you know, a bit kick-ass as well. Loved it. Yeah, Cass is great and Little Brown are great. Yeah, I've heard so many amazing things about them, but you know, it just, it just is to do with how businesses are run, isn't it? It is, yes. I landed Well, I was very lucky. Yes, indeed. But it's a great book, and I must say it looks good as well. When you see it, when it arrived in the, um, in the post, I was thinking, wait a minute, didn't they tell me that this wasn't a fictional novel? Because it looks like a kind of thriller. Yes, I did an absolutely brilliant job of the COVID I'm delighted with the COVID Yeah, it does look a bit like a thriller. You're right, I hadn't thought of that before. Yeah, and somebody else on a, on a podcast, somebody described it as a non-fiction novel, which I just love that description. I think that's bang on. I think that's exactly what I got from it, because you pick it up thinking that although you're told it's not a fictional novel, it looks like one, and then it reads a bit like one, which it all contributes to the relatability and how you can absorb yourself in it rather than feeling like you're reading a kind of text on something quite fixed, you know, coursework, coursework. It's not coursework. I know what you mean. I know it's completely not, is it? No, no, not at all. You didn't have to write it like that. But yeah, brilliant. You must be so impressed with how it's coming across. Now, I always ask my guests on the show for 3 tips on how to achieve good mental wellbeing. And I've got a feeling you're going to come up with some absolutely cracking ones. No pressure in any way, shape, or form. No pressure at all. Well, you did warn me, thank you, that you would be asking that. And so I thought I'd come up with mental tips on mental wellbeing at work, given that that's what the book's about. So my first one is really what we've been talking about, and that is about self-awareness. Which gives you more agency and more choices. And so within that, am I allowed to have a tip within a tip, Hazel? Yeah, nobody tells you how to give you your tips. Go for it. Oh, okay, good. Within self-awareness, I— one of the things that I find incredibly effective, and it comes from psychoanalytic thinking, is to try and take a step back from yourself. So if you're For instance, if your head is moving round and round and round on the same stuck circuit, or say that you're in a difficult interaction with somebody and it's getting on your nerves or upsetting you or whatever. If you can, rather than just being in that interaction, if you can take a step back in your mind and watch yourself, so you observe you in the interaction. Almost like watching a film. It's a way of reducing the heat, reducing the upset, because you've put a bit of distance now between you and you in action. And it's a way of seeing what you're doing, seeing the other person's point of view, but also really helpfully actually seeing how your behavior comes across to them, seeing your behavior as others Step outside yourself sometimes. Exactly. So step back, step outside yourself and look at yourself as if you're watching yourself in a film. And I think that's incredibly helpful. So that's, I suppose, tip number 1 as a way of helping self-awareness and having more agency and choice in what you do. Step number 2 at work is actually having some friendships and allies at work, because it makes such a big difference to mental health. Knowing somebody's got your back, knowing you can whinge to somebody and they can to you, and equally you can celebrate with them the good things and they will with you. I mean, friendships have to be treated with care at work, because if they go wrong, that's complicated in the work setting. You can't walk away. You can't walk away. So it has to be handled very carefully. But there is a real upset— upset— upside, which is that they really can help how we feel about being in work. And the last one is just— it's terribly simple, actually, but just trying not to get caught on the treadmill of constantly being on at work and actually going off, taking time off, not looking at notifications on your phone or your computer, you know, putting a note saying, I don't always, can't always answer immediately if there's that expectation that you're going to. It's crazy how we've made ourselves feel so caught by the trap of technology. It's, you know what, it's, this is why we're all so mentally exhausted at the moment because we're not giving ourselves the space, we're not speculating to accumulating and kind of doing what we need to do. It's not selfish to do self-care, it's required for us to be in any way sane and the best we can be. Exactly, exactly, totally agree. Yeah, it's, um, it's tough. And do you know what, fantastic tips, I really appreciate those. Uh, we're running out of time, but if we can do a very quick— I do like to ask if there's somebody in the public eye that you admire. Well, it's completely topical, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I really admire Gary Lineker. Yes, don't we all? Yeah, I don't gather. And I admire him for speaking out against injustice, speaking truth to power, having great integrity and great dignity, you know, when he's when people try and shame him, like as if he's said the government of the Nazis, which he's never said. And he's tried— they try and shame him into feeling bad about it, and he won't feel bad. And he doesn't retaliate. He's very dignified. And just very quickly, he, like other footballers, like Marcus Rashford, like the England team, I feel they're the ones now who are actually calling out government and having real integrity and saying this isn't all right. Because they've got the respect of so many different parts of our community. And yeah, it's great. They're using that so well. They're using their influence so well. Yeah, it's such a responsibility, but a lot of them are doing their best. And just, just remember, we're allowed to make mistakes. We're all human, but the fact is, is that when people try, that's sometimes all we need. We need to know that somebody's trying and they've got the best interests. And if somebody gets it wrong, give them a break. But yeah, I think that's fantastic. Thank you so much, Gabriella. I must say, thoroughly enjoyed chatting to you. I wish it could— I wish it could have been for longer. I thoroughly enjoyed it as well, Hazel. Thank you. Well, I look forward to welcoming you back on the show when you, when you bash this next novel out the park. Oh, thank you, I'd love to come back. It might be a while. We've been chatting to Gabriella Brown of All That We Are. Go out and buy the book. I really do love doing this show. That was today's guest, Gabriella Brown, the author of All That We are also the director of Working Well, a consultancy firm specializing in helping leaders and teams use in-depth understanding of their dynamics and behavior to bring about meaningful and sustainable change in their working lives. She's worked with hundreds of clients including the British Library, RADA, Tate, Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, University of Cambridge, and Queen Mary University of London. She's had psychoanalysis and holds a master's degree in consulting to organizations using a psychoanalytic and systemic approach from the Tavistock Clinic. She was a principal consultant in the Tavistock Consultancy Service. She definitely knows her stuff, and I think she's definitely, shown that in today's interview. And thank you so much for listening. Right now we're going to end the show with an author-read extract. That is today's author Gabriella Brown on All That We Are. Enjoy this and please go buy the book, buy the book! I imagined Jane Austen's Emma looking down from a perfectly proportioned cushioned window, or strolling out of the dusky blue door and plucking a white rose rambling up the side of the entrance porch. Pauline, Consultant Psychiatrist and Director, met me by the front door of the private residential service for children with eating disorders. Her face pale without makeup, her hair pulled back roughly, she told me a girl had jumped from her bedroom window while home the weekend. She's okay, but apparently if she'd landed 2 centimeters to the left, a jagged iron bar would have killed her. Pauline's voice shook, my breath caught as I tried to take this in. We walked up the wide curving staircase to a meeting room. She's 13, Pauline continued as she steadied herself against the banister. She was doing so well, or So I thought, making friends here, even starting to think about a family holiday in the summer. I really thought she'd be ready for that. The other two senior leaders, Marcus, head of administration and finance, and Sinead, head of nursing, were already in the room when we entered. 'You know?' Sinead asked. I nodded. Staff drifted in, talking quietly among themselves. The dietitian, family therapists, teachers, nurses, psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and psychologists, as well as the administrative and residential staff. I knew they'd face a punitive inquiry. Why had they let the girl go home for the weekend? Pauline would be held accountable. Helen, a psychotherapist, spoke quietly, 'I didn't see this coming.' 'If anyone's to blame, it's me,' Pauline said. 'I'm her psychiatrist. But no matter what we do, we can't know who will attempt suicide. None of us foresaw this.' Helen blinked back tears. I'd worked with this team for a year, helping them to communicate across the different disciplines and digest and manage their dynamics so they could be at their best. I'd heard their fear, terror, for the children's lives many times. Eating disorders have the highest death rate of all psychiatric illnesses, and suicide attempts and severe self-harm are common. I knew there were always some children on round-the-clock observation, but this was the first attempted suicide in my time with the team. Now I appreciated emotion— I appreciated emotional emotionally as well as intellectually the reality they lived with every day. Their voices expressed concern as they talked about the staff closest to the girl, but when the therapist questioned the nurses about the events leading up to the weekend, the atmosphere changed. 'You don't know what it's like working such long hours with the patients,' Neil, a senior nurse, said, his foot tapping the floor. It's different for you therapists. You just see them for an hour. You don't have to get them to eat, clean the wounds when they deliberately cut themselves, reassure desperate parents. It's not you who has to restrain a child to get a glucose shot into them to keep them alive.' 'Here we go,' Helen sighed. 'There's nothing that upsets me more than this notion that you nurses do all the work 'and the rest of us don't pull our weight.' 'That's not what I'm saying.' Neil looked exasperated. His foot tapped faster. 'You don't appreciate our work,' Helen retorted. 'We have back-to-back appointments. We work long hours with the patients too, with their self-harm and suicidality. We also deal with highly anxious parents and manage risk.' 'I give up,' Neil groaned, looking up at the ceiling. 'Let's not do this,' Pauline said. A dull pain throbbed above my left eyebrow. Why hadn't I seen this before? The repeated refrain that one discipline took the load and the others didn't appreciate them sprung from their anxiety about death. I told them they always faced the tension between life and death, and when death took center stage, as it had now and often did, Anxiety overwhelmed them. 'That was when,' I suggested, 'this friction between them reared up.' A few people nodded. One of the family therapists talked about the bitter custody battle between the girl's parents. 'Dad fights us too. He constantly complains that we don't reply fast enough or thoroughly enough to his emails. We don't meet him often enough.' 'Oh please, we give him more time than any other parent.' 'Parents,' Sinéad interrupted. 'That's what I'm saying. He makes out that we don't do right by his daughter, when actually we fall over backwards for her.' 'He's a bully,' Sinéad said. 'He doesn't just document every meeting, every communication, but tells us he's doing that. He deliberately intimidates us.' As they talked about her father, the girl herself got lost, as if her dad was patient. Sometimes I hate him. That's awful, isn't it? Helen said. He seems to invite your hatred, I said. The family therapist leaned forward, opened his mouth but closed it again. He waited for someone else to finish talking. I don't know if we should have taken her, given the custody battle. A hush fell across the room. I waited. Helen commented that the children who did best were the ones whose parents pulled together to help them. 'Maybe attempting suicide is the only way this girl can get her parents' attention,' I said. 'But it's so destructive, so self-hating,' Neil said. 'Hateful to us and to her parents. She's punishing us all, not knowingly, but she is,' Helen added. 'I know I shouldn't be, but I'm bloody angry with her,' Neil said. Her key worker's really cut up. Maybe just as well it's his day off, although if he was in, we could at least support him. Smells of roasted chicken— roasting chicken from the kitchen below reminded me of the time. As my stomach rumbled, I realized it had unclenched. Now the team had climbed out of the pit of friction and blame through voicing and making sense of their difficult feelings. To remind them of the link between their work and their dynamics, something we'd often explored, I asked about the impact of the children on them. 'They aren't like other patients. The children hate us because we try to make them better,' Pauline said, 'and that's the last thing they want.' 'They regularly, regularly reject and punish you for helping them,' I replied. 'It must make you occasionally hate them too. I thought of our opposing drives, the side of us that strives not just to stay alive but to live our life, versus the side of us pulling away from life towards death. And with them, our extraordinary capacity for love, compassion, and empathy, for hope and kindness, our equally powerful capacity for hate and indifference. Cynicism and cruelty, the insidious nullification and giving up on life of our death drive. Those days we want to hide under the blanket and retreat, not bother to look after ourselves, fight for a better world, or have a difficult conversation. Most of the time, the struggle between these two parts of us is hidden in our unconscious, but in this where the children's death drive dominated and life and death tussled continuously. The pull between them was intangible. The threat of death loomed like a battle tank waiting just beyond the green space where children played. I commented on the exertion needed to stay with life and resist the children's powerful pull towards death. 'The children drive me nuts sometimes, but I find the parents way harder,' a young nurse said. 'Some are great, but others—' 'I know,' a family therapist agreed. 'But for the parents, Appleby is the end of the road. They hand over their children, their babies, having tried everywhere and everything else. They're desperate. That's why they put so much pressure on us.' Like 'Like asking us why their child isn't improving, why they've eaten fewer calories today than yesterday,' the young nurse added. 'I forget their anxiety sometimes. It's such a complex, awful illness. It's horrendous for the parents. This conversation reminds me of that and makes me more sympathetic to the girl's father,' Ellen said. The team decided to refer the girl's parents for therapy. They also thought about how to increase support for the nurses who received so much of the raw anxiety from both the parents and children. "Just knock on my door," the family therapist said, "you can always offload to me and we can think about what's going on for the families." As I drove back up the driveway, I thought about the team's resilience. In one hour-long session, they'd rediscovered their compassion for the girl and her mum and dad, as well as for the other parents. And in finding their compassion and for one another again, they'd returned to collaborating and supporting each other.