Healing Image Hi – Humanitarian Work In Ukraine

Hello, this is Eva May, and I'm speaking to you from the Women's Radio Station for another in my series called Healing Image High. This week I'm absolutely delighted that I've been able to connect with somebody that I've known, um, personally in, in my sort of life when I go out every morning with my dog. And I have spoken about this before, how I have made some very some amazing friendships with a group of people who I've only met through walking my, my dog and having a coffee every morning. And my guest today is Lee, and I've known Lee for quite a few years, um, from this, uh, group of people. And it's only really probably about 3 months ago that I actually had any idea that Um, Lee, he's not always here, he's working, but he'd actually been in Ukraine. And I'd like to welcome Lee. And, and really, um, that the day that we started talking about this, you, you were sitting with us like you, you know, you have done for the past few years, but you weren't really there. You were almost like sort of had a staring into nothingness look about you. And I think, I think there were probably about 3 others of us there, and it was just the way that you, you suddenly started talking about how the day before you'd been sitting outside a coffee shop somewhere in Ukraine, and just how you, you that you, although you were sitting with us, that you didn't— you still hadn't got yourself sort of connected back into being home and, you know, in from living in a different way to how you, you are and when you're a different role that you're doing when you're in Ukraine. And I think we were all, you know, really pleased that you could sort of tell us and inform us about that. So I wonder if you could— I'd like to say hello and thank you for making this time to speak for me today. And if you'd like to, to explain some of, you know, how, how you were feeling on that day, and then the background to how you've been and what work you've been doing in Ukraine for these past— so it's been over 9 months now that the war's been going on, and, and it'd be really interesting to hear from you, you know, your experience, and to inform us about what's going on and what we— to make people a bit more aware of what is going on in the situation at the moment. Sure, thanks, thanks for having me. Um, yeah, I, I— it's that, that feeling of, um, just sitting staring vacantly into space is, I think, something I've somehow managed to perfect across my lifetime. But I think, no, right, something that I've probably, um, mastered in the, in the last few months with my experiences over there in Ukraine. And, and certainly coming back to the UK and coming home to, inverted commas, a normal life periodically to fundraise and sort of gather, gather everything together to go back over there, um, is something that is, is a challenge, is just adjusting, especially the first few days back. Um, and I think the day in question, I think when you saw me, I— it was a few months back where I'm currently spending more and more time now working in cities, but I think at the time when you're referring to, I'd been working and pretty much living in a refugee center, in a refugee hub, where on a daily basis you're confronted with the very sort of most tragic instances of what could befall people and people's lives, and surrounded by people who've absolutely lost everything. And my days would be spent sat in a room with— it's quite an infamous place now on the Polish border. At the time it was an old abandoned Tesco that became a refugee camp. And you know, you'd be sat in a room with sort of 2,000 women and children who'd just got off buses and trains fleeing the bombing and the shelling, and their worlds were crammed into a carrier bag. So they arrive in this place with their worldly possessions in a carrier bag children in the other hand, and usually a cat or a dog as well in the other hand. And they would arrive looking pretty shell-shocked, and we were there just to try and help them find a bed for the night and some food. Um, and that had been my daily existence for, for a few months, living in that kind of environment. So the moment I would come back to the UK, um, and I think I said this to you before, there's no way to kind of say this without it sounding almost judgmental, but you you very quickly realize what's important in life and what matters and what doesn't. And it was always an adjustment when I come back home and you listen to sort of the daily conversations of people and the mundane and the banal and the things that we tend to worry and stress about and the things that, you know, we think are important. Those first few days back home, I always find myself just finding it really difficult to engage even or connect with people because you you're listening to conversations that you're sat there thinking, I don't care, like, this stuff's not important, you know, who cares? Um, and, and that's not to judge people, you know, I've, you know, I've been in that situation myself. I'm a normal human being and I worry about the small stuff and I sweat the small stuff and I get caught up in the day-to-day worries of stuff that isn't important, like everyone else. But those first few days when I come home from a situation where it is often a life and death situation, you, you find yourself struggling sometimes to engage and connect with, with the day-to-day. I remember one incidence when I'd taken a break in the middle of— we just had an influx of refugees arrive for the night, and they'd come from a particularly badly hit area. They were particularly shell-shocked, and they just arrived, and we were settling them in, and it was pretty awful. And I just took a moment and sat down and looked at my phone and One of my best friends, who— she's a lovely person and I really, you know, think the world of her. This isn't to judge her at all. She just posted on Instagram that she, um, was having the weekend— in her words, the weekend from hell— because her cleaner and her nanny had gone sick and she was left alone with the children. And it was like, please send help, the weekend from hell. And, oh, in that moment, I just found myself just looking at her. And I think the world of her, I love her to pieces, and I just looked at her like I was disgusted. It's like, you have no idea. Like, you have absolutely no idea. Like, I'm in a room of 2,000 women who would gladly swap places with you right now. Yeah. And have that problem. That's exactly— and that's not to judge her whatsoever. No, I mean, we'd rather that they did have that. Yeah, exactly. What matters and what's important and what our priorities are. I mean, that is the sort of problem that you must wish for all those 2,000 people that you're surrounded with, that they've only got to worry about a cleaner and a nanny. Um, exactly. Yeah, that would be great, share that one around. But you need the reality. Um, I think I know I've spoken to, to one of my, um, a friend before on the radio as well who was working at that center. So it turned into a massive refugee processing center where it was women and children and were arriving because the men were still— they were fighting. Is that right? That's the situation that you, you were in? So you— that's why you— the men didn't go in general unless they were under 18 or over 60. Um, so I mean, how How do you, uh, do— how do you manage to help people in that situation? Because there's practical support and also sort of looking after— I don't— how do— how— what, what is there in place for support? And that's an awful lot for you to, to manage. And you've got people's emotional well-being. It must be very difficult if you've got you're a mum and you've got your children and you've held it all together, the relief of getting somewhere safe. But also, how do they manage to cope with those emotions that they must be feeling and, and not sort of influence the children too much, trying to protect your children? I mean, I'm a mum of 3 myself, and I, and I've found lots of situations in my life, nothing like this at all, in absolutely no way. Where I've actually been pretty scared and upset and at, you know, at my limit. But you can't let that pass on to your children, or you try and shield them from that. So how, how are these women managing? Do they find support from each other, or— I just can't imagine it. Yeah, it's, it's, I guess, to sort of be sort of upbeat and positive about it is the fact that I think one of the things, you know, again, like, that I've learned is, is that just how resilient we are as people, how resilient we are as individuals, that we don't think we could survive this kind of trauma that we do. We all think, you know, I don't know what I would do in that situation, how do these people cope? But when it is thrust upon us as these, these walking, talking animals that we are, you know, these highly evolved chimps that we are, we somehow seem to manage to survive, you know. And These are just ordinary people, ordinary people like me and you, who've ended up, you know, in the blink of an eye have lost absolutely everything and find themselves in an abandoned Tesco on the border of a foreign country and sleeping on a camp bed with everything they own in a carrier bag. Really? And if there's one thing I've learned is that we think we couldn't get through that, we, we think we couldn't do it, but you know, we are far more resilient than I think we give ourselves credit for. That for me has been a great source of comfort, you know, because me personally, you know, I've suffered anxiety and depression and mental health issues of my own in the past, you know, and I, I look at people going through that and thinking, well, there's always another day, there's always another tomorrow that we can get through these things, you know. But I know exactly what you're saying is, you know, this— that's the hardest thing, I think, when you are in that situation, is you want to help everybody and you want to be able to do more. And when you see a bus full of people arrive who've been through God knows what, and they get off that bus and they file into this place that looks like something that I never thought I would see in my lifetime. You know, it looks like something from— but it should be in black and white. It looks like an image from the Second World War. You know, it looks like a concentration camp or something like that. Um, and you see people filing in and they're scared, they're frightened, they're trying to keep it together for their kids. And yeah, they're looking for somewhere to sleep for the night, and you're handing them a pretty grotty pillow and an old blanket and an old sheet that some very kind soul somewhere in the UK donated somewhere and has ended up in a van and ended up in this place on the other side of Europe. And you're handing them kind of these threadbare items and pointing them and their entire family to a couple of camp beds in a very brightly lit abandoned Tesco. There's that, just that moment sometimes where you just, as you hand these things over, you're kind of looking at them saying, "I'm sorry, this is all we've got." And they're trying to hold it together and thanking you, and you just exchange that one glance in that moment that's just like says it all, you know, that glance that you can't really put into words that acknowledges just how awful the situation is. And you kind of just hold it together for each other, I guess, really, and do what you can. And often I think just being there for people and offering them that support is when you don't have the food and you don't have the resources to give them, but you're just there to give that acknowledgment that, look, we are here for you, you're not alone. Is sometimes all you can do, but sometimes in that moment it's enough. Yeah, just have some, um, just to know that there are people who really care enough, whether it is just, just if you can get some, make a donation, or I mean, like, you're there in person, then, um, I think that speaks volumes. Um, and my other friends that I know who've been working there in the humanitarian Bases, and with the people that they've met through, through that, they've from, from all over the world have, have gone to help. When I didn't know much at all about Ukraine before, and, and now I feel that, you know, through you and through other friends that I know who've gone out to help, um, I'm learning, I'm learning more about it and I do think about it a lot. I find it quite sad that it can be difficult now just to find out news of what's going on because we have other news that seems to be taking priority. I don't know if it's just not being as covered as much, but I don't feel that it is being covered as much, and I think it's really a great opportunity to talk to you and to really— you know, we know the situation that's going on, but how it's actually affecting people, and then how you've managed to be there and to get there through your work. And we were talking earlier, so the role that you have is there to sort of raise money and to try and train people to help with post-traumatic stress disorder by training people for yoga. And I said to you, well, you know, I've done other things for my PTSD, but I don't bend very well for yoga. And it's not— but I do find other things that do benefit me, but it wouldn't come under what I categorize as yoga. But this is what you are helping people who are teachers of yoga in Ukraine to train them to help people with their mental health and to benefit from— it's not the stretching sort of yoga classes that I'm talking about that I can't do, it's more the yoga that is proved to, to help people. So could you just explain some of that? Um, because I think that's really interesting, and to raise awareness about this these techniques that can really, really help? Yeah, sure. I mean, so we— I've run essentially two organizations here in the UK, and we specialize in providing yoga and yoga therapy to people with PTSD and various kinds of trauma. We work with marginalized groups here in the UK, and we work with survivors of abuse. We work in women's shelters. We've worked with military veterans. We had a 2-year contract with the NHS where we worked with, for example, the community groups and the people who lived at Grenfell Tower, because of our experience of working with people from marginalized groups and migrant groups with different kinds of trauma. So we've been working with those kind of populations and teaching that kind of yoga and meditation and those kind of self-regulation practices to people for a number of years. And therefore also become, if you like, the industry leaders, for want of a better word, in training yoga teachers and organizations in how to work with people with trauma and provide a particular kind of yoga and meditation practices that are trauma-informed and trauma-sensitive. Yeah. So when the war started in Ukraine, um, literally sort of February 24th, we all woke up that morning February 25th, just like the people in Ukraine did, horrified at what was happening, um, stunned at what was happening. And like a lot of people, you know, I know a lot of people woke up that day and thought, what can we do? We, we, we need to do something. Um, and as the situation unfolded, I realized that, you know, there were going to be a lot of— this was a unique situation, something that hadn't really happened, you know, in my lifetime, obviously, Second World War, where we had a, you know, a large-scale land war in Europe. And different to, for example, we've been working for a number of years with people from Syria, Iraq, you know, various conflict zones around the world. Ukraine was different because, you know, and I'm hesitant to say this, you know, there's this question of like the language I'm going to use here, but you know, it's a developed country. It's a country somewhat different to previous countries we've seen conflict in recent times. So we had a situation where unlike Syria, Iraq, or Lebanon, we've got yoga studios and yoga teachers who, rather than us waiting for them to arrive here, or people, refugees arriving in the UK that we could help, there was an opportunity here because we train yoga teachers and people to work with these kind of populations. Instantly there was an opportunity for me to think, okay, rather than wait for them to arrive, people in Ukraine are going to be confronted with people with trauma. Yoga teachers are going to need to be qualified or able to work with a population that is going to be severely traumatized. They themselves may be, for example, leaving the country and ending up in refugee camps and, and centers across Europe where we can give them and start to provide them with the tools where they can start to help the people within the community, their own communities, as opposed to waiting for them to come to us. So in the very early days of the war I guess I look back now and somewhat naively started to contact yoga teachers that I already had some, because one of my organizations has been running programs around the world, an organization called Fierce Calm. We've been running yoga programs around the world and supporting yoga teachers around the world through the pandemic and things like that. Yeah, I've been providing financial support to them and training. So I had connections with some teachers in Ukraine. I started to reach out to them in that first week of the war and say, you know, look, if you would like some support or some training, um, whether it's now or when you get to wherever it is you're headed, um, you know, let's, let's keep talking. How can we help you? What, what resources can we provide you with to help you navigate this situation? Um, understandably, a lot of them were like, thanks a lot, but right now I'm literally running down the road. Yeah, children. Yeah. And an adult. Yeah. You know, like, go away. Um, so it was a case of like, well, look, forget the yoga. What do you need right now? You know, you need a bed for the night, you need some money, you need some support, we were able to provide that. Um, but then what happened was further west in Ukraine, there was one studio in particular, for example, that, um, said, look, I'm not open as a yoga studio, we're, we're, we're operating as a shelter, a bomb shelter. Um, we're trying to gather aid from the studio and distribute aid from the yoga studio, and we're not going anywhere, we're not going to run, we're going to keep our doors open to people who are fleeing the worst areas of the fighting. So instantly it was a case of us saying, okay, we can help you keep the studio open, we can start sending you aid, money, support, and then let's see what happens, we'll take it from there. So that went on for a few weeks, but as the time wore on and more and more people were arriving at the studio, they needed help, they needed support. The studio itself was kind of overwhelmed. The teacher running the studio was overwhelmed. Yeah. It reached the point where after a few weeks I was just like, look, I can't in all good conscience be sat here in London pulling the strings. Um, the best thing I could do is get out there and help these people on the ground. So initially then, we went to Poland and headed into Ukraine. So did you, um, so initially was it so with these yoga, the teachers that weren't going anywhere, who had the studios, and then they were using themselves as a safe place for people to come to. So you were able to provide them with supplies and, um, so that they had something to meet that sort of initial need, sort of practicalities. And then from there, once they got that and they were known as a place to go, you were able to actually help the, the yoga teachers and train some more people. So Um, is that, is that what sort of— so they, they became sort of an established place for people to go, and then for people to— so they weren't going there because it was a yoga studio, they were going there because it was a safe place with some help and support for them in their immediate, um, need to flee a dangerous situation. Yeah, yeah. I mean, in those very first few weeks of the war and that first month or so of the war you know, yoga studios were literally places where people slept and spent the night and went for food and, um, and supplies. Um, as the war went on and that initial wave of people that fled moved on, um, the, the number of arrivals then slowed. And at the same time, in towns and cities around the West, more established shelters and places for people to go popped up, which meant gradually the yoga studio— if you take one yoga studio in question, which is like the one in Sambe, which is south of Lviv, where we kind of— now it's our headquarters there. All right. If you take that one in particular, for example, we, um, over time transitioned from being a space where people were coming for the most basic aid needs and somewhere to shelter, and in the early nights of the war used the basement as a bomb shelter. Went from that to we started to be able to operate gradually as a yoga studio. And what happens typically in towns and cities around the west of Ukraine, you take that town of Sambir as an example, the people who were living in that town and city in the first few weeks of the war, a lot of them left and were replaced by people from the east who were fleeing the fighting. So as a yoga studio, what happened was your regular clientele, the people who would normally previously come in for yoga classes, had left. They left the country. And replaced by a group of people who'd arrived in the city whose needs were very different and perhaps certainly weren't looking for a yoga class at that point. Yeah, but because we have training and providing yoga to those kind of people, supporting people who are fleeing conflict and war and suffering trauma, a lot of what we provide when we run yoga classes and yoga programs, for example, here in London for refugees and asylum seekers It's not just about the yoga, it's about the psychosocial support. It's about if you take refugee, a refugee in London or an asylum seeker in London, it's a couple of hours a week in a place where they can go where maybe for the only time in the space of a week somebody says to them, hey, you're welcome here, you know. Yeah, I'd like you to come here and spend time with us, make some new friends and spend time with another group of people. That's what we're providing as well as the yoga, is community support, psychosocial support. So what happens in a small town in the west of Ukraine is, if you take the studio I'm talking about in particular, it's actually on a square in the center of town, lovely little square with a children's playground in the middle. You're a new mum, you arrive in the town, you're sleeping in a hostel, you take your kids to the playground in the middle of the square, and there's a group of mums there who are sat there saying, hey, there's a yoga studio just over there. It's got what you need. If you need a pram, if you need nappies, if you need— yeah, milk powder, whatever it is you need, go into the yoga studio, they can help you out. And every night at 6 o'clock you can come in, you can have a cup of tea, do some yoga, hang out with another group of women who, like you, have all just fled different towns and cities across the east of Ukraine. Come in, hang out. It provides a community space and a social space and a community group for them to start to rebuild their lives in a new town and city where they don't know anybody. So we were able to keep the studio open, providing those kind of services, and make it completely free to anyone that arrives in the town. And it still is, it's a free service to anyone who arrives. So it's free yoga, but it's not just the yoga, it's that community support. You know, if a new mum arrives in the town tomorrow and meets the other group of women that go to the studio and she needs a pram or whatever she might need to set up and start a new life and just survive in this in this new town which you find yourself in, then, you know, we can help provide and meet those needs. So how many people would be able to go? I mean, we're talking about, you know, a fair, you know, a fairly large space where people can go, where you've got quite a good community, so a safe space. And I mean, children are pretty resilient. My background is I was a teacher, and kids are very resilient, and Um, I've worked in various sort of playgroups for, for children who've needed, um, extra support as well, and they're very good at, um, so coming together, kids, and playing. And I know from my other friends there, they're saying that, you know, the children actually, they see if they're given a football or something and they're just off playing together. So it gives the mums a little bit of a break knowing that the children have got some sort of peer support and other people to be with and give them a little bit of a break. But how many people— is this quite a big, like, setup that you're talking about for yoga, or— no, I mean, that studio in question, for example, it's just a small studio. It's a small town and a small yoga studio. You know, we can only kind of have like 20-something people in a class. Um, it's a small space. It's a small community grassroots operation. You know, if you take that one in particular We're not talking large scale here, you know, we'd love it to be, we'd love to be running studios across Ukraine in a similar format, but at the moment, I mean, at one point up until a few months ago, we were the only yoga studio still open in Ukraine. Really? It's at that state, yeah. That's changing, you know, in the last few months large numbers of people are returning to Kyiv and the major cities in Lviv. Studios are now reopening there, so You know, it's what you and I were talking about earlier. We will expand the yoga operation and the therapy program over time, but as we were saying earlier, you know, the majority of our work and our resources since arriving has actually been addressing a more immediate humanitarian need of providing aid, medicine, supplies. Going into this winter, the priority is food, clean water, and obviously ways of keeping people warm. I say that as opposed to heating because heating may not be an option. You know, there's no power in many towns and cities east and south of Ukraine. So ways of keeping the warm includes, you know, we're fundraising to get a hold of winter clothing. We've been visiting places where we've been using, for example, the film that you use to seal things on pallet trucks, for example, is a very good way of repairing people's windows because I've seen a lot of these places people's windows have been blown out. You know, trying to just seal up people's windows and things like that to try and keep them warm through what is going to be a very, very difficult winter down there. Because, um, I mean, these are things that we just don't hear about. We have heard— well, you know, I'm— I actually really like— I, I like to keep in touch with the news, to be honest. Um, I don't know, it's just something that I enjoyed. Well, it's not all that— not that it's always enjoyable what you're reading about, but I do like to sort of try and keep up with what's going on. And we've heard that they've had, um, power stations have been targeted, so it's going, it's going to affect civilians, everybody who's still there if you can't get electricity. And so you've had to adapt to the changing needs of, from people who have been migrating away to now they've been targeting in cities, the electricity supply. And it's a country— I mean, we're— you and I both live in the UK. I mean, we get it cold here, but, um, and also you've come out of summer in the Ukraine. It does— it's pretty hot there in the summer, isn't it? But then equally it gets pretty cold in the winter, a lot colder than we live with. Yeah, it gets very cold. I mean, yeah, in Lviv, for example, in the west where I spend most of my time, Um, the average— so the average winter temperature in London— I was looking the other day— the average winter temperature in London in January is 9 degrees. Um, Lviv is zero. It's zero. All right, so, so, you know, that's, that's quite a difference. Um, that means it's freezing almost every single day. But that's Lviv. You get further east to the areas that have been hardest hit, then temperatures drop way, way, way below zero. And stayed well below zero through the winter. And these are areas that have had no access to clean water, are reliant on aid deliveries for food, and have had no power for several months in some of these places. Is it really several months? Gosh. Yeah. And so they— this is— yeah, no, sorry, carry on. Sorry. I was going to say, this is one of the kind of constant dilemmas and catch-22s that you face on a daily basis in, in the middle of this war is that on the one hand, it's fantastic that, you know, where the Ukrainians are actually making somewhat incredible advances on the ground in terms of reclaiming territory, pushing the Russians back. But it does mean that that opens up whole new areas that are needing aid and support and, you know, opening up areas that haven't had food or fuel supplies for quite some time. And of course, the problem with those newly liberated areas is they've been heavily mined, um, the Russians have left an absolute, you know, trail of devastation behind them. And also, these are constantly moving, fluctuating front lines. So yeah, not only are those areas without food and water, they're incredibly unsafe. But obviously, the closer you get in some of these areas, like in Kherson for example, the closer you get to the Russian border, it means you're permanently within range of Russian artillery as well. So Supplying these, these areas is going to be a real challenge through the winter. And it's, it's a humanitarian disaster on the horizon. But you're right to say as well, that's the difference between now and the early, the early phase of the war. Everyone in every corner of Ukraine felt under threat of, you know, risk of immediate death, immediate danger. You know, they were being shelled, bombed. The Russians had made very fast advances, you know, around encircled Kyiv and places like that. Everywhere in Ukraine thought at any moment the Russians could be rolling down the street outside their window. A couple of months into the war, that became clear that that's not the case. So areas like Lviv, for example, in the west— if we focus on Lviv because it's the area I know best— you know, we've kind of relaxed into knowing that, well, you know, the Russians aren't going to be here tomorrow. In fact, they're now in a situation where they're being pushed back. Um, and we've lived with the daily threat of air raid sirens and air raids, but even that has been been a case of over the last few months you tend to ignore the air raid sirens. You don't ignore them, but I mean, people no longer were rushing to shelters and things like that. It was kind of just an inconvenience that these sirens would go off once or twice a day. You kind of just ignored them. I'll be honest, people did— were ignoring them. That's changed in the last few weeks with the Russians now targeting, um, power stations, as you pointed out. Yeah. And also they've now got access to these drones that have been provided by the Iranians that are considerably cheaper than firing very expensive missiles, which means, whereas before they would fire one or two missiles that would get taken out with the air defense system, they can now send 70 or 80 drones with a couple of missiles in the middle, um, at cities like Lviv, which then makes it far more difficult for the air defense system. They're harder to shoot down, aren't they? They're, um, and also they've got the explosive sort of capability, haven't they, still with them, even if you shoot them That— I mean, when you say they're cheaper, they're still about 20,000 each. 20,000, you think? Yeah, that, you know, like when you've got people who actually— cheaper than the long-range missiles. So I know you're able to fire, you know, if you think about it, it's a bit like throwing a stone at a target or just picking up a handful of gravel and throwing it, you know. It means they can just throw a lot more ordnance in the way of those cities in the west, and some of it gets through, unfortunately. So the mood in those cities changed in the last few weeks. You know, in Lviv, for example, where people felt safe, they now no longer feel safe again. But, you know, it's— I think we're talking, bringing the conversation back to things like, you know, trauma and things like that. There's never been a moment when people aren't— the collective trauma and the collective grief that people are having to endure on a daily basis, even without the air raids, is just hard to comprehend. I mean, I don't know a single Ukrainian that hasn't lost either a family member or a close friend to the war. So everybody is suffering some kind of grief. Everybody you know has somebody fighting in the east, again exposed to the daily threat of, you know, being killed. So this is what people are carrying around with them day in, day out. And there's that awful sense as well that, you know, a phrase you hear I hear all the time from people is they'll just shrug their shoulders and say, "We may not be here tomorrow." You know, that phrase that we often use when we did life and we'll say, "Oh, who knows what happens tomorrow? I might not be here, so I'll just go for it." But actually in Ukraine, when people say, "We may not be here tomorrow," you know, they mean it because obviously the other threat that we've had to face in the last few months, well, it's been constant, but from time to time the talk ratchets up around obviously the nuclear threat as well has been something that is constantly on. It's unspoken, you know, it's on people's minds, but nobody really talks about it because it's, you know, it's there and it's just too awful to even contemplate, I think. Yeah, I'm, I, I can't imagine. I mean, I suppose they've got to just cope with the reality of every day and what's happened then and not look too far forward and, and sort of scare yourself, because I think the nuclear threat is Well, it's a world threat really, isn't it? And something that we don't— well, we know it's there, but I think living there, I can't— it's just something you can't make sense of, um, what's going on. And how, how are people— are they quite well informed about what's going on? I mean, how do communications get through, um, to people? Because if they're not in their homes— Yeah, people, people are incredibly well informed because again, it's, it's kind of— this is a, you know, it's— we're in a new era now, and this is possibly— I think people always talked about Vietnam, didn't they, as being the first television war. Yes. Where, you know, Americans back, back home would sit down every night over their evening meal and watch the nightly news bulletin with Walter Cronkite, you know, informing them of exactly what was happening day to day in in Vietnam. And one of the reasons why, you know, public opinion turned against the war, I think, so quickly, wasn't it, with Vietnam, was because people could see the horror of war on their television nightly. We're now in a completely different phase, but this is possibly the first social media modern war. So where everybody you know has a family member or a friend or a relative or a neighbor fighting somewhere in the front line and family members who are living in towns and cities exposed to the front line. That means they have constant communication with those people via WhatsApp, via social media, via Instagram. So the information that exchange that pulls back constantly between, you know, the Ukrainian people themselves is just a constant flow of information. Um, that's not to say there isn't propaganda in any war that's put out by governments and states and things like that, but people are very well informed of what's, of what's happening on around and the ebb and flow of, you know, the fighting. And, you know, so for example, if you take the air raid sirens, for example, we have just run a retreat where we took a group of displaced people up into the mountains for 3 days of yoga and meditations, and we had some musicians with us and did some musical therapy programs with them where we— it sounds very high-tech, saying musical therapy. Really what it is is Everyone has an instrument that these musicians bring with them, just simple percussion instruments and things like that. And over the 3 days, people just get to bash and play these instruments. And after 3 days, we kind of rallied into actually managing to make a little bit of music together and song. Yeah, but it's like you were talking earlier about, you know, therapy, alternative therapies for dealing with trauma and things like that. Anything that you can do to get people out of their heads and engaged in an activity that they can do mindfully and fully focus on for a period of time that just gets them out of thinking about the war or out of that constant, you know, cycle of chatter in our heads. Whether it's playing an instrument, whether it's equine therapy, whether it's knitting, sewing, chanting, singing, or yoga is good for you. So getting them up into the mountains, doing some yoga, walking in nature, playing instruments as a collective group of people, singing, being a bit silly That's what we did for 3 days up in the mountains. And the beauty of that was it meant for 3 days people who— these are people who, for example, from my yoga studio, this was the first time in 9 months they've been able to practice yoga and either not have an air raid siren— oh really— practice, or have an air raid siren go immediately after. So for 3 days they just had some peace and quiet. But the reason I bring that up is because even then you're still aware that there is a war on, on what's happening, because we have air raid sirens, but we also all have apps on our telephone that make a siren sound and alert us when there is an air raid. So even when you're out of the towns and cities, there's technology and apps and data constantly informing you of what's happening. So you get an alert telling you an air raid, then you get a message from a friend saying they've just launched 4 missiles from Belarus, they've just hit a power station in Lviv, they've just hit here, they've just hit there. Everybody is constantly informed about what's going on, which in a way is going to add to the collective trauma because it means, you know, unlike, for example, say if you lived in Britain in the Second World War and you didn't live in a city and you lived in a rural area, I would imagine that, you know, you live on a farm in rural Britain during, even during the Blitz in 1940, you were able to escape the war until you switched the radio on that evening and listened to the daily bulletin of what was happening. But when you go, yeah, the way that we're constantly exposed to the news and information and social media right now, the war is a constant and ever-present. I mean, is it— they're— even though they're physically not physically there, it's still a constant like you say. And I'm just— I know body— our humans are very resilient, but if you've— if you're living in a state of fight, flight, or freeze, it's extremely— it's exhausting. I mean, I've lived like that for a while. I mean, it's emotionally and physically so, so exhausting that you almost don't realize till you're taken away from a situation how exhausting it is. So for you to give— be able to give people 3 or 4 days break in the mountains and something else to, to think about, to put your thoughts to. It must be hugely beneficial. And, um, so you're— when you go back next— so at the moment you're back in the UK to do some more fundraising and to, to run some more workshops and do some more training, but also you get money given to you, donated by people who maybe want to provide money for food for an animal shelter, because there's a lot of domestic animals, well, and must be farm animals as well, that have also been, well, misplaced, or they just need care that they're not going to be able to to get like they used to before the war. So can you explain a little bit about, um, how you decide where your funding is going and you have to sort of adapt to emails and things that— and requests that you get, um, almost immediately you've got to make these decisions, um, and how, how you do that? Because it's not something that I've heard of before. Yeah, I mean, I would love to say that there's, there's a method. I would love to say that there is you know, a system in place. But, you know, as anyone who's been out in Ukraine or is out there will tell you, is the humanitarian effort on the ground is led by grassroots and community organizations and volunteers and charities and small NGOs from all over the world. It's a whole other story, you know, that we could dedicate an entire other conversation to another day. But, you know, the most startling thing from the day I arrived out there is the complete absence of the large NGOs. Really? You know, the effort in Ukraine is being led by grassroots organizations, and there's a huge multinational, you know, effort of an army of people out there doing good. But also, let's remember that the Ukrainians themselves are leading that effort because they've been at war since 2014. So the community-led effort on the ground by the Ukrainians is— there is a vast network in place. But what you find is, for anyone who'll tell you, anyone like me who arrived there with a specific aim in mind, the moment your feet touch the ground is because the need is so great, and because the large NGOs— for example, if you take the situation at Tesco that we were talking about earlier, the refugee hub on the Polish border, that place wouldn't have existed had there been a presence of the large NGOs. Tesco would not have existed, it wouldn't have needed to exist. That specific facility, for example, has now been taken over by the Red Cross. Oh, has it? When, when I arrived, um, in March, I expected to arrive there and walk into a situation where there were refugee centers run by the Red Cross, by UNHCR, by all these different organizations. I didn't expect to walk into a situation where, you know, the refuge— the largest refugee center in the world at that moment in time, in the busiest refugee point in the world at that moment, was run by a ragtag army of individuals, volunteers, you know, people who just turned up and said, how can we help? The Red Cross took over the running of that facility in, I think, the first week of August. Now the war started on February the 24th. Yeah. August before the Red Cross showed up. Because it was, um, when I spoke to Billy, my friend Billy, who by coincidence you've had some contact with, although he's from the United States, you're from the UK. And then by coincidence, you actually both had help. I mean, he flew out just because he, he wanted to go. He's a— he— it's just in his— I could really see him doing it. And it's, you know, he's, um, he's 30 and he wanted to— he's got his money to, to get his ticket to Poland. He just wanted to help. He didn't quite know how he was going to help, but he wanted to help. And he said he just met up with so many people from all over the world who spoke, you know, every language that you can mention, but everybody was, um, you know, there, and they, they somehow formed together and they got this, this place running, the, the Tesco site that you're talking of. And, you know, it's huge, from people— the French, she had a couple of French friends who were making teas and coffees as people got off the bus and, you know, just giving some warmth as well, making a hot drink, but also the greeting. And, you know, a lot of people are quite young. I think— I think I really admire everybody who's gone. I've thought myself I'd love to go and do something to help, but, you know, my situation, I have people that I need to care for in here at home elderly relatives. But I think it's incredible to show how people are resilient, but also people genuinely want to help, and we do care about people. That's one thing that I don't think will ever be broken, no matter how bad the situation. And so, I mean, when you went there, how did you know what sort of base that you would have, or, you know, how safe do you feel now, you, um, going into shelters and things like that, when you, when you're there now that the war, it seems to have changed. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I think so. I think just going back, like, my situation was somewhat different to Billy's because there was a lot of people who went out there who just followed the impulse to go and help. Yeah. And then work out what they were going to do when they got there. Yeah. I mean, you had that impulse, I had, I had that urge, but I didn't follow up on it. I thought I can be best used by working from the UK and training people from here, etc. Then when I realized that actually I needed to support people on the ground in this particular work that I do, I went there with that purpose in mind. However, when I got there, the situation on the ground was so desperate and so dire, and because of the absence of the large NGOs— because I assumed that actually they're going to be doing all this work and people like me are just going to get there and clutter the place up. But that wasn't the case, was it? I ended up getting pulled into the humanitarian side and doing that work simply because it was needed. It was so necessary. So I went out there to run our yoga program, but very quickly found people just need food, they need help. Places like the refugee hub on the border needed people to make beds and clean toilets and just meet people off trains and carry bags and things like that. Yeah, very quickly ended up doing that kind of work. And that's how— why now, for example, I'd say 80% of our resources and effort is still on meeting that humanitarian need in-country. Now we're in Ukraine, you know, it's in delivering food and basic needs to people. And I don't think I answered your question actually when you said— just before your last question— when you said is how do you decide what you spend your money on or where it needs to go. And I think I said, I wish that— I wish I had an answer and said, you know, that there is a system, there is a method. Um, to be quite honest, it's that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? It's like you're confronted with an immediate need. So we have money to run a yoga program, but then we see that the people arriving at the shelter have no food, or there's an immediate need of an orphanage down the road that hasn't had any food in several days. If you've got some money, you spend it on food, and that's the reality of the situation there. And if you take, for example, what I do now is I fundraise At the beginning, it was just to support our work in Ukraine. So what I do now is the money that we spend is pretty much determined by what we've fundraised for. By that, what I mean is I run specific campaigns. So for example, at the moment, we're running a campaign specifically to help us purchase water purification devices. So any money that comes in as part of that campaign gets spent on, on that. For example, when I'm in Lviv, I do some part-time work at an animal shelter just in my downtime. Because my work doesn't take up every hour of the day, and there's an animal shelter next door to where I, where I stay. They need help, for example, just with people to walk the dogs in the nearby park. So I say I volunteer at a shelter. It's actually quite a nice thing to do, is when you've been doing that kind of work all day every day, to finish work and go for a walk in the park and take the dogs from the shelter for a walk. It's a nice thing to do. But if I then use my platform and my connections back in the UK and say, you know, look, we urgently need some food for this animal shelter, if money is donated for the animal shelter, that's where the money goes. That's, that's how we decide where to spend the money. But that's not to say there's still not instances when— I think I was telling you earlier, you know, a friend contacted me the other day and said we desperately need pregnancy kits for a women's shelter that helps women who are survivors of abuse. We needed pregnancy kits and HIV testing kits and things like that, which— and rape kits, which sadly, for obvious reasons— yeah, that's there is a need for this, um, in the— and from people fleeing, you know, the occupied territories. Um, if you have money, you— or you've got connections back in the UK, then you start making phone calls and asking people if they can spare some money to help us purchase those items, you know. So if we ask for money for a specific item or specific need, then that is what determines where the money goes, basically. But in terms of what we focus our our resources on. It's really just adapting to whatever's needed on the day. If we deliver food to a specific area and we arrive there and find that it's an old people's home and nobody's got any winter coats between them, then we'll try and find, you know, winter coats. But it does mean, in a way, it's what you said— going back to what you said just now about human beings and the nature of things— if there's one positive to come from this, it's, it's that it's seeing the army of people from all over the world pulling together, um, just selflessly serving the needs of people in need, you know. And there are people who've been out there now for 8, 9 months just giving everything they have to, to try and support people on the ground. And these are people who previously had no connection to Ukraine. They were just watching the TV and thought, I need to go, I need to go, this isn't right. And I'll be honest, you know, at the start of the war when I saw people doing that, I thought I had the urge myself, but I thought it's, it's not needed, that that help isn't needed on the ground, that actually there are large organizations and government bodies and things like that that will take care of this stuff. Um, that's been one of the biggest shocks for me in being out there, is actually that's not the case, you know. Do you think it's because there's so much— they might— these organizations sometimes have so much red tape that there's so many people that they have to get ask to do or sign off on things, whereas when you just put a load of people together, they see what's needed, they do it, and you get a little bit more of an instant, um, you know, not— do you just get people responding, um, rather than spending, you know, oh, is this right, is this the right thing to do, but actually acting on instinct which is, is what we have as, as human beings, that we should be, that, that keeps us all safe and, you know, keeps us alive and helps us grow. But if you, if you then also had to go and find like a load of pregnancy test kits and HIV test kit, where on earth do you find all those? I mean, it must be difficult getting hold of things. It's not something I'd ever know where to get, but in a, in a larger apply? And how is it difficult getting things logistically delivered to where it needs to go? Um, ironically, the hardest part is getting stuff to the border, um, because there is this, you know, going back to that, that army of volunteers and grassroots organizations and community groups that is effectively running things on the humanitarian side in Ukraine. We're all now part of this. It's how come I know your friend Billy, you know, there is now this established network of people who've been there since day one. Yes. Who, uh, I liken it to Dunkirk in a way. You know, Dunkirk was this army of small boats that, that, um, crossed the Channel to rescue the troops from the French mainland. Boats of spirit. But instead of boats, it's, it's beat-up old transit vans and secondhand ambulances, you know, that are this vast network of of this fleet of individuals and vans and things that are constantly moving backwards and forwards throughout the country, that we're all now connected. So yeah, getting items— once an item gets to the border, if you message me now and said, right, we've got a pallet full of dog food that's just arrived at the Polish border, can we get this to Kyiv? I could go on a group and get that moved to where it needs to be within minutes. There is always somebody going somewhere with empty space in a van or a lorry that take it. The biggest challenge I face is, for example, if I get a phone call now saying we need— or somebody, for example, donates an item. Say, for example, someone donates, you know, 100 blankets to me now and says, we've got 100 blankets, could you take them to Ukraine? Sadly, because of Brexit, for example, it's no longer so easy to just stick them in the post or DHL them to the border. Border or drive them over, you obviously face customs charges and tariffs and things like that that can make it quite complicated. So moving stuff from the UK can be tricky. That's different for donated secondhand goods, obviously, that, that's not so much of a problem. But when it's new items, getting them to the Polish border is actually the biggest challenge. Once we've got them there, it's actually the easy part is getting it moved through Ukraine because there's such a vast network of people constantly moving and shuttling things around. It's getting it to Poland. But that said, you know what, a lot of what we'll do, for example, is if we're purchasing new items— so for example, the pregnancy kits we purchased in Europe and— all right, yeah, delivered to a warehouse on the Polish border. Yeah, move them from there. So that's how we did it. That makes sense because I know there is this difficulty now moving things quite so easily and it's cost effective., and, um, that they get held up for ages. So, um, I know from talking to Billy, you have to have— everything has to be itemized to go through, um, to be let in. You've got— still got checkpoints. And you were saying also there's still a lot of— they've— the Russians have left a lot of mines, not just— they're not just on the road, but they're in trees. And, um, we don't hear about this anymore. So we need to— yeah, there's a huge cleanup operation that's going to take place, but it's going to take a generation. You know, the amount of ordnance and unexploded bombs and mines and booby traps in these occupied areas is just absolutely horrific. You know, parts of the country are just going to be uninhabitable for many years. Oh, it's absolutely devastating. It's, um, I can't believe it's still going on, that we're actually still talking, you know, that that it even started, to be honest. But, you know, the work that you're doing, I think, is fantastic. Um, I, I'd love to speak to you again, actually, Lee, because I don't think that— I think there's an awful lot more that we could, uh, talk about, and the way that things are, are changing, the way that the world's changing, and people are having to adapt. Um, and then I'd also really like to talk to to you about, you know, how our listeners could, could help, um, and maybe, you know, with donations, or if they hear of something, if they're looking out secondhand clothes to get those to people. And also the program that you're doing providing, uh, water purification. I think we all take for granted here that we've got clean water, um, and I can't imagine just not having it and not having it for my family and I know that you were talking to me earlier about LifeStraws, which I think are a most fantastic thing, that you can even put the straw in a puddle and it will filter the water so that what you then drink is clean and safe. So if, if we can help you get some funding for that, that would be incredible. And they're about, what, £15 each?, and they, they last— that would be enough for, um, they last quite a while, don't they? They need changing. Yeah, I need an individual straw, um, and it is literally like a small plastic tube, um, can filter 1,000 liters of water. 1,000 liters! If you had one of these on your person and you were using that individually, for example, then if you're going to drink a liter of water a day— I mean, we should be drinking 2 liters of water a day, but you know, there's a war on on. If you— yeah, you're drinking a liter of water a day, that's 1,000 days worth of water. So that's, that's over 2 years worth of water supply for £15. So you can put it in a puddle and that water will then be clean. So, um, I'm going to put, uh, your, um, links, your social media links on my Instagram and the station's website because we've only got about just over a minute left, um, and there's just, there's just so much to talk about and there's so much that we could all do to help you. And by talking about what you're doing and raising awareness as well of how we could— we're going to have an awful lot of people who are traumatized, not just people who live in Ukraine who've moved, but also people who've become involved, um, in other ways, and they've got this attachment with the country. I mean, certainly people I know are now— that's going to become their home. They want to, to live there now that they've been there and become— they feel very much part of it, no matter how difficult it is. So, um, yeah, that would be great. And I just want to thank you so much. I really appreciate the time that you've spent. I know that you've been really busy And, you know, thank you so much for the work that you do and all the people like you for doing what you do, because it's absolutely invaluable. And we need more people like you and more people like you who, who can talk and inform us. So thank you so much, Lee, and I look forward to arranging for when talk again. And, um, yeah, thank you so much and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you. I like the opportunity to do it again, and thank you for the, the opportunity to— Oh, absolute pleasure, absolute pleasure. And I'll put everything up on, on my, um, Instagram about to contact you. Thank you very much, and I will speak to you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you. Take care. Bye.