Healing Image Hi – Judge Rosemarie Aquilina

Hello, this is Eva May, and I'm speaking to you from the Women's Radio Station for another in my series called Healing Image. Hi. Um, today I have a guest who is absolutely always a pleasure to, to speak with, um, somebody that I sort of touched my life several years ago, um, when in her role as a court judge She sentenced Larry Nassar to prison for the abuse that he inflicted on members of the US gymnastics team. And being a survivor of abuse myself, watching the court, watching how my guest, who's Judge Rosemary Aquilina, listened to every single one of the victims It actually really helped me, and I know from talking to other people how it really helped them too, that survivors had a voice. I've been in touch with you now, we were sort of like Messenger, email-y type across the pond contacts now, and every time I speak to you, you're almost like a little search engine really for me, because I can ask you about anything like Google and you come up with some really great answers. And I just admire your wisdom. You know, you're sensible, your honesty. I've read your books because you're an author as well. And one that I would particularly recommend people, if they haven't listened to, is your audiobook called Just Watch Me, because it's 9 hours of you talking about your life in such a great way that even now when I read your books, I can hear your voice, and that really gives it an extra meaning for me. So yeah, thank you for those books, and I know you're going to write some more. So today I'm so— I'm just so glad that we've managed to arrange to talk. We've had a few little sort of talks already prior to this. It's been a little bit of a week of change in our country in particular. We've got a new prime minister And we've also unfortunately lost our Queen, Queen Elizabeth II, and we've now got King Charles III, which, you know, brings about a lot of things. Um, the monarchy has been a very strong presence. It's something that we've always had, so it's difficult to know what life would be without it. But there's certainly not without sort of issues like any other family, although this is more in the public eye. I feel, I, I feel like a lot of people that 96 was an incredible age, and to have not been, uh, ill and to pass, you know, Tuesday she met our new Prime Minister, and Thursday she passed away. And there is a feeling of sort of solemnness and people wanting to pay their respects and reflect. And I think that's really— that, that's fine, that's great for, for somebody, um, who served for so long and did that bit so well. But there are things in any family, um, you know, my family, your family, everyone's family And we were talking earlier about, uh, you know, Princess Diana. Um, there've been programs because all of this has been planned for decades. They started planning her funeral in the '60s, and all the news agencies and, you know, BBC and whatever, they've been, um, accumulating, you know, footage and what they're going to include ready for this occasion. But there's been very little about, um, the, you know, Princess Diana. And I know you feel a bit like I do, a lot of anger that she actually— she died. And with a family that weren't— that she was married into, who she had children who are going to be— one of them is going to be king for sure. And they weren't there to protect her. And when she was, you know, absolutely probably one of the most compassionate people that I've ever known about and has walked this earth. So do we have a little conversation about the events of this week? Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for inviting me back on your show, and I always love your voice and your strength and your tenacity. It's always fun to talk with you. But yeah, you know, we're all talking about and watching television, all the news reports, the history, because the Queen really is such a historical person, and to live 96 years, she had a wonderful life. My first thought when I heard the news was I would love to just watch. I'm not ready to die yet. I want to live to be 120. But my first thought was, what's the conversation between her and Princess Diana? Are they— have they met at the pearly gates or whatever you believe in? Are they sitting with God and having a conversation? They clearly had unfinished business. And it wasn't that— I didn't like or know the monarchy. I mean, I'm an American, I didn't follow it much. I know my family did. My mother's 88, she followed it. I didn't get interested in it until Princess Diana, and it wasn't because I was a little girl who always wanted to be a princess. There's a lot of those here. I was interested in her because of the person she was, and that being a princess didn't change her to someone who was a snob, but rather she became a princess of the people, and that really engaged me and intrigued me, and I grew so respectful of her. And then to watch her husband cheat on her and ultimately the family turn on her, and a woman who didn't have mental illness or issues then suddenly has bulimia and all the other things that got reported, and she, you know, isn't getting out of bed. And of course she has two children she has to protect. She knows she's facing divorce. You can't have 3 people in a marriage. I think she even said, "There were always 3 people in my marriage." Yeah, she did. In my bed. And I remember that quote very well. And, you know, I practiced divorce law for 20 years, and I clearly really identified with what she was going through. And there was no one in the family to help her, but only to stand by him and to worry about the kids. And she was really just a baby maker because Camilla could not give the prince any children. And I— that, I think, is a huge stain and will always be a stain on the Queen's reign. Is the Queen someone who should be respected? Sure. But I think Princess Diana really is our— or your— uh, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis. You know, she had the dignity and the grace and just did the right things. And the Queen also did a lot for the country, there's no denying that. But how do you get over what she did to Princess Diana? Yeah, well, and the Queen was also born into this. She, she knew all about it, um, you know, it's what she— she took the throne at a very young age, and so it is all she knew. It's like Princess Diana came from, um, you know, another family and had to I think it's changed a little bit now. They, they include, um, people who are now marrying into the royal family, their families more. But when Princess Diana was there, she pretty much had to leave all, all of that behind, her previous life. It changed massively. And well, from my experience, and I can remember exactly where I was the day that she died,. And I don't think I moved all day from just being shocked and stunned and watching the news evolve. But she, she came from another family into this family and she became definitely the, the people's princess. The, the right amount of, of care and the things that she was prepared to, you know, she went out of the comfort zone like you were saying, and she went and sort of work with, uh, people who were suffering with AIDS when other people didn't. You know, she was clearing landmines and she did an awful lot of charity work. And for her, she didn't want to get divorced. She didn't marry to get divorced. Um, and like you said, she didn't marry to be a princess. I think she was, she was really hoping for love. And now we've got King Charles and obviously, you know, That's who she was married to. I'm not sure if some of that's going to be stirred up a bit now again, um, that he's now taken on that role. And we lost her. She shouldn't have died. She should have had protection. Um, like you say, she was a mom, and you've been dealing with people who've gone through divorce, but to go through a divorce like she did and lose all of the family and the everything that surrounded her as an establishment. And I said to you, we, we took our, um, we went to Kensington Palace. I do not feel that I want to go to Buckingham Palace to lay anything for the Queen, but we went to Kensington Palace when the people were like laying out all the flowers. Now, if you've never been there, it's huge, it's beautiful, it's set in a park, and We parked two streets away, we got out the car, and you could hear the fluttering of the cellophane of flowers. And then you could smell all the scent from the flowers and things that people had laid. And there were little areas with— where people have candles, and children have written notes, and, you know, photographs. And she, she was truly, truly loved by everybody. And I think you're right. Yeah, I mean Her family are angry. There's a lot of people who are angry about it. And now we have to accept a king who, who got divorced and has married his mistress, which really was the catalyst for what happened with Princess Diana and, and her death. I mean, she should not have died that young. Those boys should have their mum. So, yeah, I think that there's probably— there is a conversation. There to be had. Um, I mean, certainly not other— you know, I have some issues with, um, Prince Andrew. To me, um, you know, he, he was being involved with people like Jeffrey Epstein. I don't know how on earth that was allowed to, to even happen when they have advisors. And he's always been extremely, um, definite about having security, so it wasn't like something he was doing in secret. It was actually an open thing. So I think some of her reign, you know, the behavior of some of her family has let her down. The mood when Diana died, she didn't— the Queen didn't appear for days, and there was such a sense of anger, particularly in London, that I think she had to come down. So yeah, maybe they are having like a very frank, uh, conversation right now. But, um, you know, I want to point out too, the whole Epstein thing— yes, he should not have gotten involved in that. But when you have a father who the world knows is cheating on your mother, and, you know, as a little boy, who knows what he saw. If he thinks this behavior is okay, the seed has been planted. So maybe in that regard— and it doesn't excuse what he did, I'm not certainly not using it. But I listen to backstories all the time on the bench. You know, I ask, what would you like me to know? Yes. How did you get here? You know, what— what— how can I help you? And those people who are abused abuse others often, and not in every case, but who's to say what effect what was going on in their household had on him to learn right from wrong and how to treat women and all of that. I'm kind of curious about that. I don't know that he's ever answered it. I think he's done some really poor interviews. Again, why wasn't he listening to his advisers? They have all the millions in the world to get the best kind of advisers and media training and all of that. I don't think he's done a good job making amends or explaining what happened. But nonetheless, if I go back in the family history, when he was a little boy and all this stuff's going on, I can't say that that didn't have an impact. I would guess, and I'm not a therapist, but I would guess it had an impact. Yeah, well, I think you're right. I mean, children pick up on things and children, you know, they are affected quite deeply with things. He's, you know, he's divorced too. From, um, Sarah Ferguson. And she, you know, they live in the same house together. Um, you know, there's various schools of thought around that. Um, they've not been— they've not really done very well with their money. You know, they've owed people, been trying to sell property, and they've been owing people money. And, you know, there's things like that where you think you could behave an awful lot better considering which family you're in. And I was at— my, my mom and I were watching the television and there was a thing about Prince Andrew and Sarah Ferguson, his ex-wife, was saying what a totally honorable, honorable man he was. And my mom, who is 86, turned around and said, well, this is from the woman who had her toes sucked in the south of France by her financial advisor for the world to see. She goes, and my financial advisor does not do that. And it's like, yeah, yeah, good for her. Yeah, I said to her, but Mom, you have a chiropodist at the house that has to bring like power tools. I really don't think that anyone would be going near your feet. For any sort of advice. But yeah, I think that— I don't know, do they forget what they did, what they— how they've behaved? And, um, I don't know, like the— yeah, there's definitely questionable things. So I think we focus on, um, the Queen in the next few days, all these things that are going to happen, uh, in our country. We will be putting on the most amazing, you know, all our pomp and everything that goes with this will be Absolutely incredible. And I think, yep, let's celebrate, you know, a life that she's had, and let's see what the next stage brings. But yeah, he is— he's someone who's now the head of the Church of England, and he's a— he's a divorcee who's married his— his mistress, and she's now our Queen Consort. So I think they lose a bit of credibility. For me, they do. They definitely lead a bit of credibility. Lose it. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Now that we've— we kind of talk— when we talk, we talk about different things. We don't— we're a little bit like grasshoppers, aren't we, with our, our chats? Because I, I read things and I think, I'd really like to talk to Rosemary Aquino about this. Um, she'll have some good advice. So my dog yesterday passed her assessment to be a Pets as Therapy Dog. Now, I got my dog, it's the first dog we've ever had. She's 7 years old, and I don't know what I would do without her. For, from what I've been through, from being abused, um, I had not realized this, what, what my dog has given me is just spades of love and support. I mean, it's just— I don't— I very rarely go out without her. Um, I, I'm not great at going out-out. As if I'm with people, I'm all right, or else I go out with my dog. If I go out on my own because I can't take her where I'm going, I actually, um, without even realizing walk close to the wall or a fence, you know, I can't walk near the— I almost have to do this. And it doesn't matter because it's not harming anyone, it's not harming me. But when I go out with my dog, I'm arms back, I'm happy, I'm looking up, it's all completely different. So we're going to be able to go to— I don't know, we're going to get a list of places that we can go. And I hope that she will help people because I think she definitely will. And it led me to reading, because United States, you have, um, training for specialist trauma therapists that we don't, and you also have, um, emotional support animals where a doctor can say that such and such an animal is making this person's mental health improve. So then they get a, uh, a card photograph of the animal, you know, their ID, and they can legally go anywhere. Is that right? Yeah, we actually have— especially with children, we allow emotional support animals in the courtroom. There are emotional support animals in trauma centers where rape victims are, or victims of domestic violence. We have a lot of support animals. Most of them are dogs that we use in the court and other areas, but people in America have all sorts of animals— rabbits and cats and dogs— that qualify as emotional support animals. There's also a huge movement that has been proven very successful with trauma victims, and especially those who are suicidal. They have suicidal ideation, they're bulimic, they're, you know, they're cutting— those kinds of very serious outcomes as a result of trauma. And that's equine therapy. So the equine therapy You know, the horses are trained and those people who are engaged in that therapy are assigned a horse and they ride and they care for the animal and they really develop this great bond that saves their lives. It's fascinating to me. Well, I've done equine therapy. I don't know if I told you, but when I um, because I have a dissociative, uh, disorder which isn't recognized in the UK. So therefore there's no one to diagnose it and there's no treatment for it. It's something to do with the World Health Organization and what they recommend, and then our medical governing body which is called NICE. I've even spoken to NICE and they're like, yeah, we get lots of phone calls about people who've got— been diagnosed with a dissociative disorder, and we don't have any specialists in this country. So the person I'm seeing now in London was trained in Europe. You have to go to Europe or the States to get this training. And my therapy is— I've been in therapy for 33 years, and I consider most of it— it's, well, it's, it's not been what I needed. It's taken me 33 years now to get here, and my treatment is predicted to last 6 weeks, and it's pretty intense. I mean, I get 3 hours a week. But when I was in America, out of absolute desperation, my family paid for me to go to a facility in Arizona where there were only like 23 residents. So we're close. They had a barn and the equine therapy, that not just for me, but I don't think there's a single person that didn't benefit there. And the work that I did with the particular horse that I, that I had, that— well, you could work with any of them, you could mix it up, you could do whatever— it has to be some of the best work that I've ever done. Like, the, the silent internal shift is permanent. And positive. And I mean, I, I used to paint her hooves with nail varnish. She'd let me do a base coat, do some flowers and patterns in colors, and then we'd do a top coat. And she'd even put her hoof out for the next one to be done. Um, just even being around and having a bit of fun with them, um, it was absolutely incredible. But again, this isn't recognized in the UK. I've been to an equine therapy place in the UK and it's very expensive, but it's very, very good and they have to go abroad to train and they link up with the local university and they are trying to, to get research and studies, but the studies have been done. There's years worth of it. In Europe and in America, so I don't know why we're not doing it. And the animal that I had this most incredible experience with last year was in the herd. There was an alpaca, and he sat down, and I approached him, and I sat down next to him, and he lay his, his whole neck against me, and I had my face down in the top of his head, and I had my arms around his neck for about 20 minutes. And it was incredible. I mean, like, he just— I think he picked up that I needed to be held, like, um, an inner child or whatever traumatized part of me needed this healing. And as a prey animal, they very rarely sit down. And the person who was observing said they'd never seen— they'd never seen him behave like that before. And I think it's such a way forward that it's important. It's really, really important. It's not given in hospitals here. Yeah, what's funny about what you're saying is that actually equine therapy has been recognized since the ancient Greek gods. That's how old it is. And they believed in the therapeutic potential of horseback riding. And that's, you know, eons ago, right? Yeah. It's the beginning of time, right? And it's been studied over and over and over again. And now it's really become, especially with all of the awareness of trauma and rapes and just the horrible things people do to each other, it's really becoming recognized and popular here. But it's used for trauma, anxiety, depression, PTSD. And you can work on skills like— it's used for emotional awareness and social skills, impulse control, confidence, trust, and empathy, and problem, problem-solving as well. I mean, for so many things that people struggle with, and people like you emerge so much healthier, sure of themselves, happier, because that horse has taken away some of the pain and given you some of the strength, and they have that incredible sense about them. That they know that you were ailing. That's why that horse came to you. That horse knew. Oh, it honestly— I mean, while I was there, I was told that my abuser had died, and I was like, okay, right, you know, like, the world looks the same right now. It's okay, we're okay. And then we went out. We actually— they took us out to kickboxing because that's another thing they do. They take you out and they keep you fit and they give give you activities and they take you to museums and canyon trips and, you know, you are actually treated with respect and you have things that are interesting and you get assignments. And I came back from— it was actually to the Tucson Museum of Art— and I got back in the van and I, I didn't know what to do. I, I just I just did not know how to cope with the fact that I'd been told he'd died. And one of the people with us who worked there, she said, "Would you like to go straight to the barn?" And I went straight to the barn, and there's about 7 horses in there. And I went, walked in. I had tears just streaming. I just didn't know what to do. I was away from my family. And my horse I used to work with came over to me and put their head, their forehead on my forehead. And like, how incredible is that? Because how am I ever going to find the words to explain what that moment felt like? Because I don't really know how to articulate it. It was a feeling, not words. Um, yeah, so But how do people get to equine therapy in the States? Is it covered by insurance and offered quite easily, or is it a difficult thing? Well, first of all, I don't think there are enough equine therapy facilities. I don't know if it's covered by insurance or recognized in that way, but I know that people are paying for it and having it done and have had success. I haven't had to use it. I don't know if it gets covered. I suspect it's one of those things that isn't covered yet. I suspect in the future it will be covered, but it is there. A lot of the facilities, or some of them I know of, are grant-funded, and they do things because they're big— they're nonprofits, so they will assist people without cost or with some kind of subsidy. So it's available, it's just we don't have enough of them. I know they're working. I know they're doing tremendous things. I know some people who are trying to put more together, but it's a terribly expensive proposition. I mean, horses are not cheap, and the care and all of that, but it is so worthwhile. I absolutely think so. I have to say, um, congratulations to your dog for being a therapy animal. That's quite an accomplishment. I know. I was so, um, I was so proud of her because Um, am I— well, what happened first was I was going to do this before COVID and you can apply online because I thought it would be good for me because I'm, I'm okay going out with my dog. I'm, uh, I'm, I'm more confident, I'm happier, and I've got, you know, now I've got her with me and we get on really well. And, um, so I got the form up online and then they wanted a vaccination certificate. So I don't know where that is, I haven't got a clue. So I shut it down. So 3 years later, they contacted me because COVID's gone, and they were like, you know, are you still interested? And can you tell us why you didn't complete the form? I said, well, actually, I didn't complete the form because if I'd had prior warning in the introduction that I needed the vaccination certificate and a photograph of her, I would have been prepared and been able to do it. So, um, anyway, we couldn't find the vaccination certificate, which is really funny because my husband is, is a vet and he's her vet. So I was like, I can't believe this, we can't go to an assessment without the vaccination certificate, you're the vet, you know. Anyway, we found it and, um, yeah, she went through about nearly an hour of assessment and, you know, they were making noises behind her and They took her— we were actually in a hotel lobby for a lot of it, and she— the assessor goes, we need to also see how she is when she's introduced to new people. I'll go and find some people, like, in the hotel. So we walked along a bit, and there's a family having a meal. Well, what she didn't realize was that the woman was breastfeeding feeding and trying to be really discreet, and the family are having a meal, and then there's this woman who's kind of like a really larger than life, um, in a, you know, in her, um, official outfit, clothing and whatever, wanting to take my dog into this family's meal with, with this poor woman trying to feed her baby. Anyway, they, they said yes, and she, she passed that one too, and, um, Yeah, so we're looking forward to getting our references finished, and then we'll, we'll go off and out and about. But there's, there's a shortage. The, the charity I'm with have been going for 40 years, uh, there's 2 others in our country, and there's a list of establishments who are waiting to have this, this help for, for people who are with them. So anybody who's thinking about it, I would recommend find— if you want to do this and you think your dog's, um, is got the temperament, they do explain to you what they are looking for and what the animal will need to experience to pass this. But make sure you've got your vaccination card and a photograph of your dog with you before you apply, and then it will make the whole thing easier. So yeah, I'm actually really chuffed to bits. I really am. I feel like I've done a good job, um, bringing up so many people. Yeah, we, we are. We're going to help, um, we are. We're going to go and help people. I see a lot of dogs when children testify, especially, and those dogs, the emotional support dog or the therapy dog, um, sometimes it belongs to the center who's helping them, and sometimes they bring their own dog, but the dog simply lays at their feet, and it's amazing that these children can then testify in front of their predator and testify to this judge in this big robe and in this big courtroom and with all these people. And the dog simply calms them. And you don't hear the dog, you don't even know it's there, um, but it's amazing to watch the dynamic. So I know you're going to help a lot of people, and I hope everybody who's listening thinks about signing their animal up. It doesn't— here it doesn't have to be a dog. I don't know there, is it only dogs? It's dogs and cats at the moment. Um, I know, but we— so that's just for therapy animals, but we don't have emotional support animals recognized in this country. So I would consider that she is an emotional support animal to me if I was living in the States. She definitely, I'm sure, would be, uh, a physician would say that she was. So I would be able to take her, you know, into play other places that I can't take to now. Basically here, if I can't take her into certain places, I don't go to those places. Um, it's just better for me. Maybe one day that would change and I'll be able to go to more places without her. But yeah, she, she's— I've looked, all my children have left home as well at the same time, so You know, my husband's so busy working. Two of my kids are living like, one's Northern Ireland, one's the Republic of Ireland, one's in London. So, you know, my role has changed a lot. So I'm trying to get through this. You know, I lost my job because I was abused. I couldn't work. So I'm trying to, you know, I'm 57 and I want to do something with my life. Not, not just for my— for me, but I don't want to lay in bed all day being depressed. I want to get up and out and I want to do something, and I want other people to know that it is possible. But the help that I've had a lot— well, until recently— has been in the United States, and I've been to a terrible facility in the United States. I had the most horrendous 6 days of my life in one. And I actually can't believe such places exist. But they're not all created equal. That's true. They are not. I mean, you know, I think America is a wonderful place. Yeah. So much opportunity and greatness in medical care and in so many fields. But not every person, not every facility is created equal, and it is very troubling. I'm sorry you went through that, but there also are wonderful facilities and people as well, just like in every part of the world. I think so. And I was very fortunate that the first one that I went to in Arizona— and I was there for 70 days— was such a great— I mean, it would be such a good role model for, for people from here, from the United Kingdom, to go and see. But when I was on the board of governors for mental health from my local NHS trust, and they never even heard of it. So I wrote a massive report about it and, you know, to try and help. And because the places I've been in here, I've pretty much been even though I'm not sectioned or anything, I've been treated like, like a criminal. Like, I've, I've been in a room with like security guards outside and stand away from the door and they shove your food on a tray across the floor and like it's, you know, it's because I've dissociated, because that's what happens to me. Um, it's been pretty barbaric. It's, it's terrible. Next month, my therapist in the UK, because she, she's trained in dissociative disorders, she did her training in Europe because it's recognized there as well as the States. She and I are going on a study program. Well, it's remote by somebody in the US, and it's a study that's been running for a long time, for many years. And we meet the criteria because she is trained to, um, you know, dissociative disorders and complex PTSD, dissociative disorders. Everybody else in the UK who's not got her or someone like her, they won't— they can't even take place in the study or benefit from that, what that is going to bring to us and what we can give to that study. So we are— I don't understand why we're so behind. So that's why I keep going on about it. But so emotional support animals— credit, give yourself a lot of credit. All right, what you're doing is you are paving the way for others to get the kind of treatment that is needed and to have this recognized and show the value of it and to educate people about what's needed and why and what really can be accomplished. So You know, I, I know you don't understand it, but obviously I, I think from where I sit, I know you went through some trauma, but I think God gives us the benefit and the burden, and the burden for you is also going to be the benefit for the rest of the world and you. So you're going to make some changes that are needed and that without you would not happen. So congratulations for that. Well, thank you. I mean, you've definitely You know, I think the same goes for you. I mean, you've, you've worked extremely hard to get where you are and everything else that you do. You're extremely busy. And, you know, you've, um, you know, people are benefiting for, from you. I mean, what you did in the Nassau case was the first thing I ever saw. And I have watched, uh, you now in Zoom courts for, for other, um cases. And, and I found that extremely interesting. And I also feel really proud. I'm like, yes, this is my— yeah, good job, love it. Like, your listeners can keep watching. You can share the Zoom link. We, um, there are some sometimes hearings, as you know, that are confidential. We can't have— no, no. And you go into, uh, what is it, a lockout room? Break room? Yeah, the breakout room. And then we come back to court and, um, You know, people around the world really— sometimes there's 100 people watching and sometimes they're just 1 or 2. I never know who's going to be there, but it's very interesting. And I get a lot of comments from people saying, you know, we don't have life in our, in our country, or we don't see judges in our country. I mean, there's just so much diversity around the world about how cases are handled. And I really do believe in our system, but I think our system is also flawed. So I'm not trying to talk about those flaws. I think that you and I, what we have in common is that we want to change the world, making it better. So when, when we go see God, it's better for our children and grandchildren. Yeah, absolutely. That I do. And I think I do also believe that I do deserve a good life. Yeah. Away from everything else that happened me. And, um, you know, but acknowledge it needs to be dealt with. It does. It's too massive. It's too— it's also too much for, for my family. And, you know, I can— they've asked me things, and I, I, I could just answer the question. And some questions I've answered, and then I've realized they've got no idea. They don't you know, this actually— they don't need to know this. To me, it's normal. To them, it's not. And I'm a mom, and I need to protect my family too. So, um, yeah, we're gonna go with our, uh, my pet therapy. But, um, I'm hoping that one day we do have emotional support animals, but not in a crazy, crazy way that every single animal that anybody thinks is like nice or they've got a bond with is going to be given this status. Because we were, uh, talking earlier, I was saying to you I'd read an article about, um, this alligator who's an emotional support animal. He has an ID card with a photograph of about half of him. I don't think they could get all 5 foot 5 inches on the on the picture, and, um, he is an emotional support animal. There were someone who had a peacock and took it on a flight, which caused problems with other passengers. I don't think it sat still. And then there were also some college campuses that, um, allow students to take their animals if they are registered this way, and also campuses that have their own emotional support animals. So, um, and people are choosing to go there to stay in, in those dorms where they've got a cat and a guinea pig and, and all these things. But, um, I think the, um, the, the dangerous animals— like, I, I would consider an alligator to be a dangerous animal, and I, I know you feel the same way. You know, maybe needs some, some real thought to what is helpful and the wider impacts on the community. And why would you choose this animal? The alligator? Yeah. 5 foot— I mean, I'm 5 foot 6. He's 1 inch shorter than me. I don't know how tall you are. But, you know, we're talking about— he, he has his little arms on, you know, people's homes around their, their, um, shoulders and his head on there, the side of their neck, and they're stroking him. I mean, he could just take their head off, I think. But, um, dangerous not just for him but for all those around him. I don't want to see him in a restaurant. I don't want him in my courtroom. Animals are really just animals, and we know a lot about dogs. We don't know a lot about animals who behave— I'm sorry, alligators who behave this way. And good for him, I suppose, but we've seen other people who work with animals on various levels who thought they were their best friends strike out at them. My question, or my thought, thought when I read about him is that this alligator that is now his support animal, um, what has, what has he gone through that makes such a dangerous animal more supportive to him than being with whoever his abuser was or whoever caused the trauma in his life? So he'd rather face I mean, think about that. He'd rather face an alligator and befriend an alligator than whomever caused him pain in his life. I think that there's a whole psychology there that I'm not trained to talk about, but it's very interesting to me to look at those two kinds of dangers and pain. And he would rather take the risk with this dangerous animal that he's befriended than whoever it was who caused him trauma. Yeah, well, I mean, he— they sleep together in the same bed. Um, it's, uh, he lives on his own and this is— and he just has his alligator. But I, I was thinking back from when I was, uh, you know, primary school teacher and all the risk assessments I used to have to do before we went anywhere with the children on a trip. If I had to factor in that somebody might be out with their emotional support alligator, I don't think I'd ever take the children anywhere. I mean, it's just not something, um, I mean, you've seen the, um, it's the SeaWorld, wasn't it? The, um, yeah, the whales. I mean, goodness me. Um, well, and there was the woman who worked the monkey, the apes, and yeah, eventually I think lost half her face. And then there was, um and crocodile— the, the man who worked with the crocodiles, I can't think of it, um, very famous. Anyways, oh, I know, I know who you mean. He did his own TV show, didn't he? And, um, yeah, sorry, I can't remember his name either. But so many people have passed or been seriously maimed by dangerous animals under the guise of, well, they're friendly to me. Well, I think we need to respect all life, including all animals, but we don't have to treat them as human beings because they do have— after all, the basis of them being on this earth is their animal instinct. And when they're upset, we can't tell them to, oh, go see your therapist, sit in a corner, let's do visualization, let's do deep breathing, you know, let's do some yoga. The animal goes to their very basic instincts and they kill or they maim. Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I'd be terrified if I saw it. I'm not a fan of things like that particularly anyway, but I just, I think there needs to be, um, you know, just parameters about around all these things. There was another guy whose, his emotional support animals were 3 goats, and he lived in a town, and the village, the townspeople like the goats but the— I don't know what you call the town hall or something— they'd issued him with like— he was served by the sheriff with a great big thick load of paperwork to get saying he could not keep these goats. But they had this wad of paper, like a massive book, and he said basically that says I have 3 goats, which is true, and then he had one single piece of paper with about 3 lines on from his physician saying that these goats improve his mental health, and, and that would be all that's required for him to keep these goats as, as emotional support pets. But now I also read that American sort of airlines and other places are now writing their own laws because they don't really want these animals on their planes. We've got other passengers and staff that they've got to be responsible for. So, um, you know, like, I, I know I used to have it. I used to teach a child who had a pet tarantula, and I let it come into school, but it did not come out the tank, and her parents had to be with it just for, like, she wanted to show it. But I certainly would not have— and she loved it, you could tell she was very happy. She was only about 8. And but there's no way that if that wasn't an emotional support animal that I would want to work anywhere near it or have it near anybody. It's just not— it's just not sensible. It's like you say, they've got their animal instinct and that's going to come. It could come at any time. So they aren't— I think the better way, and we were talking about this before, is the robots. These new— beg your pardon? There are social robots that are used for emotional support, um, for children at pediatric emergency rooms and other, um, facilities. And I think they're quite Interesting. Yeah, I do. I mean, they talk, they have a child's voice, so they are interactive. Children are quite used now to interactive technology, so they engage really well. And yeah, I think this is quite a good thing. I mean, I don't know how they're programmed, how they process data, or if they just collect data. But yeah, so is it something that's becoming more popular in, in the US? The studies that I've read say yes. And of course you can buy some of these robots online. I don't know the difference between them. I don't know if they're the ones that are actually used, but they did a study that I think there were 109 children aged 3 to 10 years old, and what they found was that their cortisol, which cortisol releases because you're in acute stress, and cortisol can kill you. There's a higher mortality rate if you carry around a lot of cortisol. And they found that it decreased the cortisol in boys by 57% and in girls by 92%. That is huge, really huge. I think when we were talking about this earlier, the problem that I think we both agree on is that if you're going to have this robot talk with the child, be there for the child in their moment of trauma, give the child one to take home. Yeah, right. Because you can't give, you know, say, here's your friend, and then take the friend away. Yeah, we're gonna let you be in a room on your own, although some people are watching, but you can't see that they're watching— the medical professionals and your parents— and you're going to get this relationship or interact with a robot, you can't just take that away and then go and say, talk to a grown-up, because we've got the information out of you. Um, I think you're right, you need, you need to keep the robot. I mean, they're really cute, they're like 60 centimeters high, so they're not intimidating. They move, they talk, and, um, I mean, that's how technology is going. So it's not, it's not alien. It's more alien for them to want to talk to a grown-up and try and provide the answers that the grown-up might want, or not quite know how to, how to even answer, or how to understand, or even how to say I don't understand. Look at how small our cell phones are. They could make a smaller robot that they give them to take home. There could be nonprofits paying for it. There could be grants. Insurance could cover it given the results of the studies. Yeah. You know, it's— some children need that continued support. And if it comes from a robot, I'm fine with that. I can only imagine. Think about this. You go into the hospital with a traumatized child. They're calmed down with this robot. They're engaged with the robot. They're feeling better. They're able to tell you what's wrong, whatever the scenario is going on, and then they leave the robot. My kids, all 5 of them, would have been, 'Can we go back? When can we go back? Can we go back? We have to go back, Mom. The robot misses me.' I mean, I can't even imagine me getting any peace because they want to go back and visit the robot. Yeah, absolutely. Cause tantrums and other things, and like, somehow I'm preventing them from having the robot, their new best friend. So I think the studies and the use of them is great, but I think that you can't take it away from the kids. I think you can talk to the larger size, the 5 or 6-foot one, or whatever, or 4 feet, whatever it is, and then give them a smaller replica to talk to. It's almost like abandonment, isn't it? By a bit of betrayal. You've gone and trusted something and that's just gone out of your life and you can't make sense of that. Right. Yeah, no, I agree. It's like bait and switch, you know, you're brought in for one thing, you leave with another, you're not, you know, you're defrauded really. And we should teach our children that once they are told to trust something, that they can really trust it, that we don't pull away and say, well, we fooled you. Now that we got what we want from you, we fooled you. Yeah, it's like a bad trick. Yes, exactly. But the clinical trials are really promising, and I'm hoping maybe there's some corporations who can build these things and give them to children. You know, we all use cell phones and other devices that have technology within them. When that gets old, why not refurbish, take that— those pieces within those gadgets and make a robot from them? It would be a really good use of things that we throw away. And would make children really happy. I don't know what it takes to make a robot, but I would guess that some of the internal makings of a robot are similar to those in phones and other devices that we get rid of. Yeah, absolutely. They're things that we, we use every day, don't we? And, um, probably discard every day. So, right, we've only got about 7 minutes left. That's a bit, uh, always, you know, always, always flies by. So, um, yeah, so, so yeah, I think, um, I think the robots is a really good idea. And the other thing, I've just got back from holiday, and while I was— we, we have a— we go to the same place, so we see the same people when we go, and it works well for me too. And one of the people there is, um, a, a beautiful girl, and She's very clever, uh, but she's, she's a, an influencer on social media. She has, um, 65,000 followers. She has a manager. So it's a 2-day-a-week job on that, 3 days a week on her other job, which will be her other job because, uh, she realizes that being an influencer has a life. But yeah, I've, I spent 4 days with her, like, not solidly with her, but you know, we went out with them a couple of times and down on the beach and stuff. Those 65,000 followers plus all the others that view it will never ever get to talk to her or know her like I do. Like, I know that she's just a really lovely nice girl, and it just worries me a little bit that, you know, she gets, uh, free stuff uh, she, she can choose it and then she has to wear it and post it. And there are some photographs that her manager will say, no, can't do that, your personal life is not to be on it, you know, it's like that. And it's having a bit of a detrimental effect on— especially now we've got cost of living crisis— that people her age or a bit younger are spending time maybe losing sleep as well because they're spending time on their phones going through all these things. Um, and I guess it's like when we grew up, I don't know if you used to put posters up on your wall from your, your magazine that you got from your pocket money. I guess it's a little bit like that, but you know, it was a poster on the wall, whereas this is going through the access to these— I don't know, fear of missing out, um, it's not showing real life. And it was showing that for 14 to 24-year-olds, it was actually making them feel— they did report that they felt depressed and, um, ugly, you know, like not, not attractive. And, and then the, the other study that they used with these same people was that if they did FaceTime or a phone call, then their happiness levels went up and was in like the 91-93%. So I just really want to— like, great technology, you know, phone, great. I mean, I've got stuff on my phone, my photographs, I have my music that helps me, you know, I've got your book, helps me. Um, but I think you have to be careful with what you're doing and not forget that actually talking to people, doing FaceTime or by phone, is still really important. You know, like, I, I'm so happy that I'm able to talk to you through technology. Um, I love talking to you. It may, you know, make— I'll be positively buoyant. I probably won't go to sleep very early because I'll be like Oh, you know, we talked about this, and I'll be processing it. But yeah, so just, you know, I think talking and listening is so important because we're humans. The technology— and I've noticed this with my children, I've noticed it with my law students, I've noticed it, um, with really the younger lawyers— the technology has really desensitized people. They don't know, um, how to communicate. They don't know how feelings are hurt. There's a lot of things that there's no phone can replace, like picking up the phone and saying, I'm coming over and going to someone's house and actually having a cup of coffee with them, or meeting at a restaurant for lunch and having a conversation that you just set this— the phone aside so that you actually have this human contact. We all need human contact. And I wonder when I see certain crimes in front of me, and when I hear victims talk, and then I hear defendants talk, and defendants are surprised so often, and it's more and more happening. They're surprised so often when the victim says, you hurt me. And they will say, well, I didn't know that it hurt so deep, or that it would hurt. And I think that, you know, the phone use, which is texting and calling and FaceTime, It's more like watching the television, you know, where someone's hurt, like a cartoon is hurting and it pops up back to life. That's not real life. No, it's not. And feel the pain, like when that horse could feel your pain. Yeah, people can feel each other's pain. You can feel happiness. And I think we all need to make sure that we limit the phone use and we increase our human contact time so that we can feel kindness and, and love and pain and show it. Today they were saying at Buckingham Palace when Prince Charles— uh, no, King Charles and, and Queen Consort arrived, that there was applause, but that the applause was very quiet considering the thousands and thousands of people there, because everybody had one hand on their phone recording the whole thing, so they couldn't, they couldn't clap, you know. They— it's, it's just the way it is. Um, yeah, and they said it was just notice— so noticeable that this was the first occasion like this where, you know, the, uh, the, the applause that they usually would have in situations like— it was just phones in the air. So, um, you know, we've got like 9 seconds. This is so bad. Been lovely. I can't wait to be asked to be on again. I will be asking you on again. Thank you so much. Thank you.