Healing Image Hi With Eva May – 3 – 12 In Conversation With Caryn Franklin MBE

Eva May, and welcome to my Healing Image High series for the Women's Radio Station. This is the third broadcast in this series, series, and today I'd like to welcome you to my wonderful guest, Karen Franklin, MBE. I think a lot of people that I've spoken to, and certainly things that I've heard from people, is that they know Karen from the time when she was a presenter for The Clothes Show on the BBC that was from in the 1980s into the 1990s, and also The Clothes Show live experience. So Karen has actually been still working in fashion for another 3 decades and has got an awful lot of interesting things to tell us, and I met Karen through my cousin as I was struggling with my image. I decided I wanted some help with my image. I had tried— I've talked about that in my previous broadcast— where I booked an appointment for a makeup tutorial, just for something light, something easy, something for a very newbie person, and I ended up looking extremely heavily made up, which was something that I could not possibly ever recreate myself, and I wouldn't ever go out looking like that. It simply wasn't me. So a risk I took to call my cousin who had been working in fashion for many years, and she said, "Leave it with me. I will, um, have a think, and I'm going to put you in touch with somebody." The next phone call that I received was to tell me that she'd been speaking to a friend and a colleague who she'd worked with for a long time, and she said that I would be in safe hands with this person. And it turned out that this was Karen Franklin, MBE, and we met in a coffee shop in London nearly 6 years ago now since this all began. And that was the start of my Healing Image High journey. So I'd like to welcome Karen and thank you so much. I know that you're extremely busy as always. So I really appreciate your time speaking to us today. So can you just explain a little bit about how you got yourself into working in fashion and how clearly it was obviously the right thing for you to do because you've had 40 years of doing some absolutely great things and things I know you've been extremely passionate about and worked in a lot of ways that maybe other people don't quite understand and understand everything else that you've done apart from The Clothes Show. So The Clothes Show came as a result of me already working on a magazine which was very much about street style, and I'd done quite a bit of TV up until that point. But I think in terms of pointing myself towards fashion, and choosing to get a job in fashion, that wasn't really what I thought I was going to do. I've always loved making clothes. I used to make them for my sisters and for myself. I grew up as one of five, and back in the day, clothes were expensive. They were possibly the price they should be when you consider how complicated it is to make a beautifully designed garment. I think we've gotten very used to extremely cheap clothes, but maybe more about that later. So because the sewing machine was always out in our house, my mum, you know, taught me to sew and made clothes herself. I sort of quickly saw kind of mastering this machine as a route to not just good style, but feeling good about myself because I couldn't afford what I saw in the shop. So we'd get clothing packages from older relatives who'd sort of go, well, we finished with this, you know, we're sending it to you. And I'd quickly get on the machine and alter it. And so I had a real sense of being empowered when I could wear something that I'd altered or changed or customized., and it kind of gave me a currency. Perhaps it looked a bit like something I'd seen somebody wear on Top of the Pops. Oh, right. Or, you know, something I had seen in a magazine. And so I used clothes and, and styling of, of myself really from that point onwards because I realized that I could either stand out and say something about myself or fit in and be, you know, part of the group. Because when you're younger, you sort of want to wear the same as your peers and be accepted. And I saw clothes as having kind of a narrative and having a powerful statement. So I guess it makes sense that I was drawn to kind of slowly— I went to art school, but I was also an athlete. I was very, very dedicated and trained over 15 hours a week. I thought that I would go into the army so that I could continue my training, but I realized when I sort of went you know, just briefly for a sort of visit, that I was never going to be happy with wearing the shoes that they were wearing. I kind of— I know you're saying the shoes in the army. I just could not see myself wearing those. And, you know, I think generally I'm not a person who responds to, I don't know, falling in line, which you have to do. You know, you have to respond to command if you're in the army. You don't kind of go, well, I'm not doing that. And actually, that is much more what my personality is. And so it kind of was a natural that I instead went to art school and then met lots of people who were actually interested in fashion as a career. And I wasn't. I was a graphic designer. And although I still liked making clothes and I had lots of friends who made clothes, I photographed their clothes and I put them in my college magazines. And then left and got my first job with i-D magazine. So that's how it started. Wow, that's exciting. So just from going for, I think you told me, we were speaking earlier about you were about sort of 12 when you were able, you were confident enough and mastered the sewing machine to change some of the clothes for yourself. Oh, by that time I could make full outfits. Could you? Well, there wasn't great TV on back then in the '70s. I've actually got a friend, a really good friend of mine, who she's good at making clothes, and I'm always a bit in awe, like, how did you learn? Because I really wish that I had learned how to use a sewing machine. I grew up in a house with a sewing machine that my mum could use, and I can remember picking out some fabric that I really liked, and it was in the days where you've got one of those pattern envelopes oops, you know, it was going to be— that was going to be my long dress for my parties. Well, by the time she finished it, it was a short dress. It took her about 3 years. So I, um, yeah, I quickly learned that Mum wasn't going to be able to always come up with what I wanted, or at least not when I wanted. But these— this friend that I know now, she used to work in a shop that sold dress fabric. For a Saturday job with a friend, and at the end of the day they were allowed to take a remnant home. Then they would have 2.5 hours to run themselves up an outfit and then go out and see who could sort of— what each other could make from this short piece of fabric in a very short time. And you know, they were pretty good what they were making, but one night they went out and the lighting in the I know, disco, I think it was, was so that the garment that my friend had made said "end of roll" in the lights. Yeah, yeah, that's— I mean, what you're telling is a story of back of years where people didn't have many clothes and you— it was expensive to buy an item of clothing or an outfit. So a lot of people did teach themselves to sew. I was super lucky because my mum was— she wasn't a dressmaker by trade in any way, but she was very skilled and passed that on to me. And I think that did happen in a lot of families, but also we learnt it at school, whereas as far as I'm aware now, most students don't get the chance to learn to make clothes. At school. No, it's faded out. Yeah, it has been faded out. I had one opportunity to do it. It clearly wasn't something that I was going to find easy, and we needed to wear our wraparound full circle skirts for a sort of parents coming in to look at school. Well, mine was hemmed with sellotape because I hadn't got that far. There's an awful lot to hem a full circle, uh, when you're only like 10, but no, it was not my forte. But the first time that I met you, so I spoke to my cousin and said that I was having some trouble and really like some help to access makeup, hair, and an image, clothing. That's how I saw it. And she called, and then we arranged to meet in, in a coffee shop. So you came in and you were wearing a really nice coat with a collar that had a lovely bit of detailing on the side of it, and I commented on it, and you had— you told me that you'd actually done that, like, put that there yourself. You'd adapted the garment and got some things, and I just thought that is just— it was so nice, like, just to be able to do that. And I've actually started doing that sort of thing. That's something that I am able to do. So, um, that was just so nice to see, you know, somebody like you who's been working in fashion for 40 years is, is doing that as well still, and creative, because I think we are creative and it's really helps me to be creative. But I think I got creative that day with the dress that I was wearing because it was a bright green color, but it was the bra that rather let me down. And although I was all covered up, one of your first comments was, you need a bra, hun. So it's like, great, okay, we've broken the ice here. And in fact, you're quite lucky that I was even wearing one. I don't think that I particularly put enough priority of going out in those days. So it was like, goodness, right, okay, I need to get a new bra. So I think it was about a month or so later, there we were in a shop in just off Regent Street with me having a bra fitting that you'd booked, and you sitting in the opposite changing room with the curtain open watching me having my new bra fitted. I mean, it was just like, I can't believe that this was— this is actually really happening. But my goodness, what a result. I mean, you're absolutely right. So, um, yeah, thank you for that. So anybody else? I can't quite believe I was so direct, but, um, maybe, you know, we, we had got to a stage where you were saying to me right, give it to me straight. But, um, you know, for anybody listening, uh, there's certainly a lot more conversation now about the importance of just comfort and, and correct fit, because our bodies change all the time. And quite often a lot of women aren't, aren't wearing a kind of tight enough, uh, sort of underband So they're not being held in place, and they haven't therefore then got the silhouette and the shape that they need. And clothes fit round the, you know, the shape that our underwear makes. So I think, you know, we were— we realized when we met you that you were hungry for advice and you were really excited. You were embarking on a kind of new relationship with yourself. Do you remember that time? Because that's, you know, that was very clear to us that you were really ready to enjoy yourself. I absolutely was, and you're totally right. And there were other conversations that we had, but around it wasn't just like, "You're wearing a green dress, but you need a new bra." We actually spent quite a lot of time together, and you were telling me about work that you've done, people that you work with who'd been through some trauma or were living in some pretty awful circumstances through no fault of their own, and how you found it quite a privilege as part of your work to listen and to hear other people's stories, and that you also, you identified that a quick chat and a cup of coffee wasn't really going to fix me. I needed some, some help. I wanted some information. I found that because I've been through trauma as a child, that— and I've had a lot of help with mental health services and therapy— that I've done quite a lot of learning around how to manage trauma and to understand it and how my body sort of responds to triggers and things. But we're talking about 35 years of that, and not once had anybody thought about or mentioned to me how I felt about my image. And I strongly felt by then that looking at people wanting to buy into, well, just to feel good about myself on the outside. So I was having therapy that was helping to heal the inside. So if I could get some skin-down healing, hopefully we could kind of meet in the middle and heal myself a little bit more. It's certainly the information that you've given to me, not just about fashion and style tips, but just the conversation and getting to know professionals and people. I found it really, really interesting to learn about your work and your background, as with everybody else that you put me in touch with. I did have nice clothes. I definitely had some good stuff that I bought, but When I wore it, I didn't really feel that I was, you know, with it, wearing it. It was on me rather than part of something that I wanted to project. And this whole concept of getting ready, I'd been out of that way of thinking for such a long time that I really couldn't get my head around it. And I needed it to be broken down and given to me in a way that I could understand. And use. So that I'm extremely grateful for. And we must have worked on this for a couple of years, so I got help from you over sort of time. It wasn't a one-off that fixed it all. So yeah, it's a little bit— Yes, you can't— I mean, there's It's almost like— it's like anything, isn't it? When you are learning something new, you've got to put it into practice, and, you know, then you've got to sort of embed that in your own understanding. And I, you know, there's a point you made early on about the mental health support you've been given, but there hasn't been an understanding of how valuable something as seemingly superficial as image can be to mental health. And I know that individuals who work in the field understand that. But being able to, you know, if you like, kind of pass without people— without drawing people's attention to you, knowing that you fit in, knowing that you have presented as confident, as polished, as authoritative. If you're, you know, looking to be in a situation where you want to challenge people's ideas, all of these things, clothes can deliver that. You've got charities like Dress for Success, which works with women to give them that interview outfit. Oh yeah. When they stand in front of the mirror and they see themselves, they too believe that they are worthy of a good job. And what, what that is called in psychological times, in psychological terms, is enclosed cognition. And there have been studies to show that when we put on an item of clothing which we have invested with a property They actually did it on a doctor's laboratory coat, but when we do this, we take on some of the properties of that garment. So in this study where people were given a doctor's laboratory coat to wear and others weren't, those who, you know, often kind of studies present certain tasks for individuals to do, but they don't really know why they're being evaluated, but those in the coat presented with— it was either more concentration or more focus than those who didn't have the laboratory coat on. So it makes sense that we say to ourselves, if I have dressed in such a way where I feel that, you know, I've— I'm empowered, that I'm— that's actually going to affect how I do behave. Yeah, no, I think it does. I very much felt that what I was wearing wasn't really connecting with me. I kind of shut down a little bit and put a bit of distance between. So I wanted people to see the garment that I was wearing, which was nice, but I didn't really want them to see that and me as a whole thing. That was the difficult bit for me. So, I mean, my theory about it is that I have such difficulty looking at myself because it's looking at my eyes. And your body grows, you get older, taller, grow hair, skin changes, all these things. But your eyes are actually still the same eyes. And I think that my eyes were just holding so much sadness and trauma, and they've been very useful to take me away from situations so I could sort of go to a place behind my eyes so that I wasn't fully exposed to what was going on at the time. So looking at my eyes, what— they're the same eyes that I, I had all that time ago. So I, for me, that's why I think I had difficulty with it. But once I got to, to be able to look, to take in all this new information, whether it was about makeup or hair or my clothes or having a new bra, because you're absolutely right, it does alter the silhouette and how I do look in clothes. And I It's probably the number one thing that is important, that I realize now that is important for when I put clothes on the shop. So can I just ask you, people do still talk so, so much about the CLOTHESHOW and the CLOTHESHOW live events, and it was an incredibly successful programme and it ran for, is it 12 years? Yes. 12 years, that's amazing. And, you know, I was reading about the live events where you were doing about 8 catwalk shows a day and they're allowing about 6,000 people in to see them, like each time. That's absolutely incredible that the interest in clothes for such a huge range of people. Friends of mine used to go with their children, they'd take their mums, you know, it'd be almost like a whole generation of families going up and enjoying and sharing this experience. I think that must have been absolutely incredible. To have been a part of. I wish I'd seen it. I'm sorry you didn't. Oh no, it is testament to how excited people were by the culture of fashion. And let's just remember, you know, in its heyday and when it started up, this was before shopping online, so people couldn't just at the touch of a button kind of access a world and all of the brand imagery on the website of that brand with films and then buy the clothes. So the clothes show, if you like, was a sort of analog version of online shopping because it brought together all the brands that people had seen on TV and all the experiences like the catwalk shows, the makeovers, You know, the hairdressers bringing people kind of into their stalls and, you know, talk. Hairdressers are great entertainers because that's what they do all day long is chat and, yeah, you know, kind of charm, charm people and make great hair. I mean, it's like magic, isn't it? People kind of step up and suddenly this big reveal with a brand new hairstyle and the excitement of that person. So So the CLO-Show Live was all about offering this up as an experience, and I think given, you know, back then it was one of the largest and most successful consumer shows, but it's important that things move on, times change, and people now want more niche access to fashion, and there are lots of different brands that don't try and be one-size-fits-all or one look works for everyone. You know, especially younger people are very used to curating their own fashion experience based on, you know, that brand's transparency around sustainability, the representation that they use in their imagery, and, and what they stand for. I think we're all much more educated now as to the way that fashion has changed since the clothes show days. It ended in 1998, the TV show ended back then. So it began in 1986, that, that was the, the time when— and let's remind ourselves, when people only had 4 TV channels. So what is lovely is even now when I'm out, people, grown men and women, will come up and say, "I grew up with you and I'm in fashion because it was presented to me as an exciting world. I didn't know anything about it and once I saw it on the TV, I wanted to be part of it." So, you know, that's a nice feeling that it made a special impact on on people, as you are with the conversation that you're highlighting, and, you know, the way in which you're encouraging people to use fashion as a tool to be, you know, one— be your best self, to take it and make it something that helps you walk, you know, walk out of the house with confidence. No, it does, it definitely does. I do find that now that, you know, I actually get up and I get ready and I think about what I'm wearing and what I'm going to do. I don't think I think about what message I'm going to give, but obviously I am giving off a message. So we had a day with you and Jane Galpin, who is a stylist. She's an amazing person. So glad I met her. We couldn't have Ariane Poole because she was in Australia, so she's on the other side of the world and probably in bed. And Denise McCannum, who did my hair, was also not available on a day that you and Jane came to my home and we had— we did some photographs for my website, Healing Image High. That was kind of nerve-wracking for me. I'm not sure if you can— it was, it was the first 5 minutes that were going to be the make or break, really, because we got another— we got somebody to help with my makeup and to do my hair. And I think that that is just great testimony to all the work that was done and all the really sensitive support that I had had with my image, that to have someone else to do my hair and to do my makeup was just not a problem at all. In fact, I was excited about it. It was great. Actually, I loved the mirror with all the light bulbs on. That was really good. And, um, But you'd asked me to pull out some of my clothes, which I hung around the room, and I had an area of sort of accessories and shoes and then clothes hanging up along sort of the rails above my doorway. I was actually really scared that you were going to say, we can't work with any of this, this is just not going to happen today. But you did. You were like, gosh, this is great. This is— you can do this with this. This is— talk to me about color blocking and about shoes and pockets and accessories. And it was such a great day. I absolutely loved it. I've never had a day like that in my whole life. And I think my face hurt from smiling. At the end of it. And I also had the other people who were there, and we stopped for lunch. And what I was just so taken with was that all of these people who are younger than I am that were helping for the day, how much they'd never met each other before, but they had all been very influenced by the clothes show. And we had this great group of such creative, individual, confident women. And I thought that was just, I was just really excited and really proud that, you know, that was an incredible thing. And people were, you know, it was, it has a last, it seems to have had a lasting effect that the information that they got. So I think although the way that we access fashion and things, I think a message is still needed from professionals like yourself and from people who you are now involved in teaching, who are going to be the next generation, that their information is— it's really like gold. We, you know, want to know it. It's interesting, and I hope that they understand that, because that's another message I want to get through this radio series, is that everybody who helped me, it's not about necessarily what they physically did to me. It's about what they have given to me as almost like a gift of, of information. So I feel quite informed. I've also— I'm aware that if I go out and look in shops, I have a tendency, not so much now because I've made myself aware of it, to buy more of the same rather than something that's new and something that's different. I think it's because it was familiar. I associate that with comfort maybe, or something else that's really pleasant. And I need to, you know, I now stop and question myself, is this something that I really, really want to purchase? And, and the sustainability is something that is really important, which years and years ago wasn't even something that was considered. So, and I know, I mean, obviously it's something that you're extremely aware of, and I think there's a lot around clothes and education on how things are made. I know that there in, in the fashion industry you talk about soil to soil Clothes that are made from sustainable products that then can go back and be broken down without putting in our polymers and plastics into our planet. I think that's an important thing that we can all think about as stakeholders in the business of clothing because we do need clothes,— and, you know, we will continue to buy clothes, but we can be very powerful sort of citizen participants as opposed to mindless consumers. We can make choices about who we buy the clothes from. And you talked a little bit about the next generation. There are some amazing young creatives coming through now who've dedicated their learning to sustainability. So they are able to work in technology, within technology, that can make fabrics from things like bacterial growth and from onion skins, like waterproof fabric from onion skins, or work with large plants that literally can be turned into a sort of leather-like substance. And of course there's all the recycling. So most of today's young creatives are very focused on a situation where they're not sort of pulling out resources as a kind of single use and then promoting a system in which you wear your clothes for a very short short period of time, and then these clothes go hopefully to secondhand, but often to landfill. So there is a whole new culture there, and we can all be part of that. That, you know, for me is really important and a big drive. And I actually undertook a challenge about 3 or 4 years ago from Extinction Rebellion to Buy Nothing New for '52, which is essentially don't buy anything new for a year. That was about 4 years ago, and I, apart from, and sort of I made this concession for myself, apart from to support fully sustainable businesses where, so I buy my shoes from Pozzu, which is It's an amazing UK company where they deal with natural substances and glues, solvents and glues that are non-toxic because you've got to think about the workers making the garments as well. So for me now, I'm very dedicated to, you know, I'll swap, I'll buy secondhand, I will upcycle. There's a fantastic again, new platform called Retoure, R-E-T-U-R-E, dot com. Now when you go on that, you'll be put in touch with a whole load of amazing young designers, and you can take an existing garment or garments and have them completely reworked or restyled, and you can also buy things. From the platform where they've taken in stuff and they've remade things in unconventional ways. And one example that stands out for me was a beautiful wedding dress that a bride commissioned from a much-loved bedspread that she had. So have a look, you know, there are many platforms like that, and it's for us really to decide that we're going to shop in a different way so that we can enjoy clothing, as you clearly do, Eva-May. And, you know, it's wonderful to, you know, to talk to you about how much that it has empowered you. But we can also be empowering others, you know, depending on how we choose to spend our money. I don't know if that's something that you feel resonates with It does, it does, and actually I buy my shoes from Posu. Yay! They're great, I love them, and they're kind of, the designs are great, and I've got those Star Wars boots. Yes. They're Stormtrooper boots, aren't they? Yes. And I have a black pair and a white pair. But what I do is when I go out, I wear one black and one white. It works if you wear a black dress. Well, I feel it does. Yes. Why not? I love that. I love that. Yeah, you need to have one, or get a friend with the same size feet. You can swap them over. But I think my feet are a bit larger than yours, otherwise I'd offer you one. And I actually go out I go out with these and my kids are like, "Mom." I'm like, "I don't care, I love it." I think these, it's the only shoes that I actually think it would work with. And people come up to me and go like, "Where did you buy those?" It's like, seriously, you think people are selling like monochrome shoes like this? No, no, no, I got two pairs. You know, it's, but people do come up and say, 'That looks really good.' In fact, I did send them a picture of it and they did use it, uh, Posu, because, um, they are— they're like— they, they're great. They're so, so nice. They last for years. In fact, I've still got mine and I'm still wearing them, um, quite often, and that's what, 5, 6 years? They're brilliant. So, but this reads a bit fun. That's an amazing story. I love that. Yeah, yeah, you need definitely. So yeah, so I've gone that far that I even go out in odd shoes deliberately, you know. Maybe when I'm older it won't be deliberate, but at the moment I'm choosing to do that. But what's amazing is you create a talking point in which you're able to promote a sustainable shoe company and people want to come up and find out more. I applaud your creativity. Oh, thank you. Well, the other thing I did was once— because I think my husband's getting a little bit concerned about my sort of escalating interest in fashion, because, you know, we have parcels delivered and it's like, well, what's in this one and what was in the other one? So I had a magazine, it was Women's Health. I like— I really like that. That's the only one that I subscribe subscribe to because it's easy, um, you can do the exercises in there easy, but it also does have things about fashion. And there was a— I think it's a French workers jacket that somebody, um, I wish I could remember her name, I think it's something like Run with the Wolves, and down the side of it she'd embroidered on the sleeve a really lovely pattern. And I I loved it. It was just so, so nice, so right for this garment. So I ordered one, and I've actually got— the one that I got is the one that was in the magazine. And when I go out wearing that, I get so many people. It goes with so many things. I think that's the other great thing about when you've got something that has been personalized in such a way that You don't see stuff like that very often, and it can really go. And I don't need to buy really another jacket that would take me to quite a few places. Yeah, and I feel really good in it, and I feel really good that somebody, you know, put a lot of thought in creating it. And it's definitely worth the investment. So, yeah. I think that's the thing, isn't it? We do make relationships with our clothes. And then I think of my clothes as friends who, you know, wait in my wardrobe whether I need— do I need a comfort blanket and something soft and reassuring to wear? Do I need armor and, you know, go for perhaps some power dressing and some tailoring? Do I need a uniform? Uniform that means that I know if I wear that, I fit in with everybody else and I'm not drawing attention to myself. I've definitely got different aspects of my wardrobe that, for instance, if I'm going on stage, I will access clothes that I keep specially so that when they come out, they look sort of crisp and smart. I wear headscarves in my hair and big earrings so that when I step on stage, people can see that I've made an effort for them and everything looks, you know, really pristine. And sometimes if I'm going out, I think, oh, maybe I could wear that. And, you know, oh, it's okay, it's— I'll wear it for best, but I, you know, I'm, I'm not going to wear it too often because I want it to look good, you know, when I have a job. But I think we all do that with our clothes. We all put them into different kind of orders and categories so that they can— they can— we can call upon them when we need them. Yeah, I like that idea of having clothes as friends. And I— the other thing, one thing that I also like, and I know that— I mean, if you ever have like 4 days spare, you can just Google about Karen Franklin, MBE, and there's some such great podcasts and things that I've listened to, um, about campaigns that you've been in. And I know you're— you've been quite a fan of a slogan t-shirt. Well, I absolutely love a slogan t-shirt, um, and I think the last one that I bought and used to wear and see other people wearing quite a lot of which was pretty much pre-pandemic, was about "If you can be anything, be kind," and in particular in relation to the response of the very sad passing of Caroline Flack. And the world did feel pretty kind then. I felt that it was kind, that the sort of shock— she was an amazing personality and a person who we were privileged to see quite a lot of her, and she always looked fantastic. But what happened to her was in the public eye, and I think it highlights that, you know, we are resilient as humans, but we are also fragile, and we need to be mindful of that. And we need to— I can understand feeling fragile. I cannot understand feeling fragile and having the amount of pressure that she must have been under at that terrible time in her life. So I just think that we also, we can use clothes to show that we how we're feeling without necessarily saying it and slogans and sharing those slogans or things. There's a lovely person called All Things Fiona Lilly, and I don't know if you've heard of her. She does great slogan t-shirts and sweatshirts that are made from sweatshirts that would otherwise— they're imperfect. So you don't really get a say in what size you get. It's generally, it's going to fit you. But she's saved those from going to landfill, and she actually does give some of the money that is paid for these garments to a mental health charity. And I think that that's a really, really nice thing to do as well, to buy. I think I read about her in Women's Health magazine. So That's one thing I do like, is using not necessarily newspapers, but certainly good publications that highlight people who are trying through clothing to do some good and to spread some kindness around. Yeah, I think I would definitely rather spend my money with someone like— did you say Fiona Lilly? Yes, all things Fiona Lilly. I'm going to go and jump on the site and have a look. Yes, have a look. That's a big part of if I'm investing in something, it's because I believe in the person who's making it and I want to support them to kind of redistribute wealth and good feeling. So we can all support small businesses and make sure that those people who are behaving in an authentic way, who know their staff, who care about their product, are, you know, they're getting our money. Thank you for that one. I know, she's a great girl. I think she's from Ireland, so yeah, she's, yeah, it's really good. So can you just, Karen, can you explain to everybody what you're actually like doing now? Because, oh, and the other thing I really want to know is, you know, congratulations on being awarded an MBE. I think you're the only person I know who's got one of those. So I mean, how did that feel? I mean, that must have felt amazing. And what did you wear? Well, I wore a fully sustainable sort of garment, an amazing sort of slubbed gray and black dress coat with trousers made by Ada Zanderton, who works with non-toxic materials. And I knew I would be asked by magazines what I'd worn, So it was a chance to promote a designer who, you know, I believe deserved, deserved press and hoped that other people would buy from too. The MBE came as a result of a lot of campaigning work I'd done on body diversity and unachievable body ideals, sort of broader representation in front of the camera. Because that's been really a big thing for me since I was on The Clothes Show, to challenge fashion's perpetuation of one body ideal, namely the very tall, thin, white, young model. And yes, she is beautiful, but we are, you know, the fashion model isn't the end user of clothing, and we all deserve to see ourselves glamorized and iconized. And in fact, there have been studies since I began campaigning that have shown brands that we— when we look at a fashion image, we look to bond with models through shared characteristics. So the person who most looks like us in the image is the person that we kind of invest in and make a relationship with. And when we can do that, we show an increased engagement intention to purchase by up to 300%. So it's good business. Gosh, it's good business for brands to showcase a broader range of men and women in front of the camera. And we began All Walks in, in 2009. That was me, supermodel Erin O'Connor, and PR Deborah Bourne. And I think that I have seen, as a result of some of the very intense work we did, both with the industry and with the media, that we are seeing people with body difference in front of our screens now, and as models— older women with gray hair, curvaceous women. You know, it's a given that we must demand a range of skin tones, race and ethnicity difference, because this is the planet we live in. But also seeing people, you know, it's become normalized that beautiful people with prosthetic limbs appear in our fashion, people who are wheelchair users. All of these images are, I think, really powerful for us all to see because we're all different. So yeah, it was a nice feeling to collect the MBA for that, from that work. From Princess Anne, who's very charming, I must say. Oh, that's lovely. I mean, well, fantastic achievement, really well deserved. Um, can, can I just ask you then, what, what, so what are you doing now? You're, um, you're Professor of Diversity at Kingston University? Yes, I'm a visiting professor. It's a, it's a different academic role visiting. It's like an honorary role. I'm not a full-time academic, but for me, a big part of helping students go forward in fashion is taking my knowledge. I did quite late in life a Master of Science in Applied Psychology because I really wanted to address some of the barriers that I'd come up against in fashion, the sort of human-made barriers to presenting a broader range of body and beauty ideals and, you know, trying to sort of see a more— a broader range of opinions so that leadership isn't just one type of person. Because, you know, studies show that actually when we are challenged to think outside the box, we become more creative and it's better for business. So I take that into sort of the, the education space, and I teach students how to kind of take charge of their emotional intelligence, you know, how to combine intuition with actual psychological management tools that will help them go further. I, I help them understand how to use their their voice, because I think a lot of young people are highly creative but feel perhaps very overwhelmed by the system when they go into it, because it appears not to care about the same issues that they do. So teaching people how to be disruptors, how to challenge kind of current ways of doing things that aren't always the right way of doing that, and ultimately how to look after their own mental health. Because fashion is a very fast, cutthroat business, and we need to understand how to create barriers for ourselves and how to stay safe and how to, to sort of prevent ourselves from perhaps going into meltdown or running on empty. There are very famous examples of top designers in top jobs who have struggled with their mental health because of the pressure. So being able to teach that to students at an early stage is very important to me. I think, I really think that that is such a great thing to do because your mental health is just, mental well-being is just, it's such something that you really, really need to take care of. It can impact on so many things, and if you're actually actively teaching the next lot of academics to do this and to be boundaried about it, then I think that's great because, I mean, nobody needs to burn out. We've got to— you're not going to be an awful lot of good to yourself or to other people if you're going to get yourself into that situation. So that it's so important that that is just not like the norm. My job previously, I did 20 years in teaching, there was quite a lot of pressure to like be the first one in and the last one to leave. And there's somebody that went in on a Saturday and went in all the time in the holidays. And so they, you know, the actual job was enough without having to go and actually do this, which became almost like a culture thing that I didn't want to buy into at all. It was just not going to be very good for my students either, to have an exhausted person in front of them for 6 hours every day. So, Karen, we've just got a few minutes left and One of the things that you also have helped me with without I haven't even asked for was you wrote a very interesting article, an honest article about the menopause and cronehood, because I was really dreading the crone idea. But actually I quite like it because the way that you, you put it was like, yeah, great, go for this. This looks all right. So perhaps could you say a few things about that? Yes, so very quickly, I think, you know, the media and culturally, we have been taught as women to view ourselves as providers of pretty, providers of beauty and youth. And so through that same lens, We are— we kind of feel somehow a sense of atrophy and loss when youth begins to fade, as it inevitably does when you move through life, become more experienced, cleverer, more discerning. And what I was writing about in Menopause really was the gifts of old age. I have long gray hair. I've been on a variety of TV programs talking about why I don't need to dye my hair to look younger, why I don't care to look younger. I even was even on Newsnight with Kirstie Wark, who wore a gray wig to talk to me. But I'm essentially saying that when we embrace the gifts, the experiential and intellectual gifts of getting older, there is no atrophy, only gain. And The more we see older models in our media, the more we get given an understanding of how fashion can work for us, the more we are empowered. So I see getting older as a huge adventure. And I have two daughters. I've been very careful never to criticize my body in front of them. I'm very grateful for the fact that it works. That it's getting older. I have all the fashion skills I need to show, you know, to celebrate myself. So I think women can inspire each other on that level. No, I mean, absolutely. When I was also talking with Ariane, because I hadn't realized that Ariane was 65, I couldn't believe that. Well, she's nearly 65, so, and she was saying Pretty much the same thing, that she's found other things, more energy. She's got some time to put energy into other areas. It's, you know, time that you can really sort of grow out, grow out and grow out, because there are more things available as well. And we've got valuable skills that are lifelong, lifelong skills. So And that really through meeting with you and the wonderful team that you put together. I know that, you know, that was so one-off. It was a fantastic thing that you've done to me to help me with myself, and I am happier. I look better, I feel better, and I'm actually— I'm I'm full of joy. Not every day is a great day. That's something that I also have to be aware of. But it's way so much better than how I was. So I've just got nothing to say other more than like, thank you so, so much. Thank you for what you've done for me. Thank you for what you've done for millions of people who watch Closur3 and all the other work, the campaigns your students, and I just look forward to hearing what you're doing next. Are you asking me to tell you? Because I don't know if I've got time. We have about 50 seconds. Oh, okay. Well, thank you for that, and you too are an inspiration. We learnt a lot from you, Jane and I, that the marvelous stylist you mentioned too, was absolutely integral to you feeling happy with your image. And just very briefly, at this moment in time, I'm, I'm working on a book about bias, all of our inherent biases. It is a buzzword, unconscious bias, and I think I'm going to use my own life experience of having a mixed-race daughter, of working in fashion where there are many, many biases about female