Healing Image Hi With Eva May – Judge Rosemarie Aquilina

To you from the Women's Radio Station for another in my series of Healing Image. Hi! And today I have, um, a guest that is always absolutely, um, someone I look forward to speaking to very, very much. And she's also someone I do think about, uh, from time to time when I do things in, in my daily life. And, um, it's somebody that, that I also became in contact with through the abuse that happened to me. And her name is— she's the Right Honourable Judge Rosemary Aquilina. And we've never actually met, but we've spoken, we've seen each other. And I messaged Rosemary when, um, the US gymnast team took, uh, went to trial over abuse that happened to them from Dr. Larry Nassar, and it was a case that really, it really moved me being able to see it actually on the television because we don't get the same camera coverage that you do, um, and, and it did something for me, and I know from talking to other people that it certainly moved a lot of others as well, um, and hearing all those stories. Now I know you've got the case, it's randomly selected to you, um, on computer because I didn't quite understand how things were allocated. So yeah, so we've been in contact now for— it must be— is this 3 years that this has now been? I think it's going on 4 years. 4 years, goodness me. So yeah, so sorry, I said thank you for inviting me again. Oh no, I love speaking to you, I absolutely love speaking to you. So, um, and you're on your holiday, so I'm absolutely more grateful that you've managed to find some time, and I've actually managed to get the timing right as well for the difference that we have, um. So would you like to just say a little bit about what's been happening with you lately and, and what you're doing? You're writing some new books and some other things that you're doing because you're a very busy person. Yeah, so I stay busy. I'm a circuit court judge and I have 100% criminal docket, and because of COVID we're very behind, so I am doing everything I can do with every moment I have when I'm in the building to hear cases. I'm on vacation right now for a couple of days because I need some self-care time and spending some time with my kids. But the day before I came up to my vacation spot in Lake Michigan, I did 65 cases, pleas, sentences, motions. And that's because I have about 400 cases and the number's going down, but— Right. Go to trial. So I do a lot of things because people say, well, how can you hear the rape cases, the murders, the child abuse, the— all of the things that you do and keep your sanity and not get upset and all of that? And one of the things I do is I write novels, because you get upset, you can kill anybody you want fictionally, right? It's not a crime to write something. Or if you have, you know, you're in a good mood and you want to write some happy scene, I get to do that in my writing. So, I write fiction. I'm currently, I have 3 thrillers basically. Well, 2 are thrillers and 1 is a cozy mystery, but 2 of them, the cozy mystery and 1 of the thrillers, I'm writing the 2nd in the series. And then, of course, I have my memoir, which people seem to enjoy and have asked me to write more. So, I'm also putting together a book, really stories behind the bench, you know, some of the things that I think about that I do and lessons that I've learned from all those people in front of me, because I think that, like your story, people can learn from you. And those people in front of me, it's not just the victims that I learned from, but also defendants. And I do that by asking, "What would you like me to know?" And these open-ended questions they really give people this safe feeling where they can have a conversation with me and I listen. And what I do with that listening is I make decisions on how best to help them because not everybody deserves to go to prison. Some people do, and some people should be on probation so we can try to help them. And if they do not do well, if they, choose to turn their back on the treatment, don't follow the law, you know, there's any number of reasons, I can always send them to prison, but I try to save a life when I can because it helps all of us. They go back to the families, they go back to the workforce. So each person has a story and that really keeps me motivated and intrigues me and I feel like I'm helping. And I'm also a motivational speaker, so I'm asked to go around the world. I do a lot of speaking in Michigan, but once in a while internationally, either on Skype or traveling. And I talk to all sorts of groups about the law, about how to feel better, how to do self-care, all sorts of things. So I've been very busy and blessed because people seem to want to hear what I have to say, and I love meeting people, and I genuinely care about what happens to people. So, um, I think the lessons that I've learned, I try to share. My kids, of course, think that I don't know anything, but I am happy that some people listen. And I just have the most amazing conversations with people, people like you. I think it's important to get everybody's story out so that we can partner together, not just in America, not just in the UK, but in the world to fix the problems because everybody's having the same problems. It's just we're at different levels of responding to them. And we really should have a think tank, a learning tank of how can we partner together and move every, every country forward rather than having some countries so far behind and others so far ahead. I think we are all human beings who should help each other. And that's what I hope that my contribution in the world is. Well, I think in it, I mean, everything that you've said is amazing. I've read all your books, um, I'm excited for the new ones. I've listened to your audiobook 3 times. Thank you. Like, absolutely, I loved it. I absolutely love what you've done with your life, and, um, it's so insightful. And, and I do think about you from time to time, and I like an audiobook because it really feels like you're speaking from the heart, you know. It, it's, it's just great. And, um, so I, I was thinking about you last week actually, because when you were growing up, you had a little job at home, was to look after the roses. And, um, you even went to the Rose Society to learn about how to really take care of these plants. And the thing I really hate about gardening, because I do not like it at all, two reasons. Number one, I'm extremely allergic to insects, stings and bites, and I've ended up in hospital for quite a few days having been bitten by a nice nest of spiders. I stuck my hand in. And that's the reason— sorry, because that's like a scary movie to me. That's horrifying. It was absolutely horrifying. I was sitting in the hairdresser's and I had these yellow blisters appearing on my hands and my fingers, and they were getting bigger and bigger. And I said to the hairdresser, do you think I need to do something about this? And they look like great big yellow slugs. Well, I went to the hospital and, uh, I was literally shoved in a bed very quickly and put on some, um, I don't know what it was, I can't remember and I'm not medical, but I was in hospital for about 6 days that time. And this, these damn spiders, they were— whatever they put in me, they were attacking my muscles. It literally felt like I was being snapped where every muscle was. It was incredibly painful. So, and I don't like doing things to plants that I don't know if it's the right thing to do for them. Um, you know, it's like, to me, it's caring for a living thing. So I have one job in the garden, and that's to look after our topiary trees. We've got two, and they're twist— do you have those, like twisty boxwood trees? Yeah, right. Well, we've also now got the boxers moth, um, which is, which is like, it's destroyed thousands and thousands of plants in the UK. Well, I'm on mine. I just, I tell you, I am out there with a magnifying glass looking for my caterpillars to pick off to try and save my plants. So I was thinking about you and the roses. The way— so I'm very dedicated to my plants in the way that you're dedicated to your roses. And it's only because of you that I've actually really gone and looked up of how to take care of them while they're going through— well, they're going through some trauma right now. And, um, yes, it did make me laugh because you, you still have your roses in the house, don't you? From— we have roses planted around the house and always roses in the house, whether we buy them when it's winter or whether we cut them from the yard, and they do make a happy house. I just, as a teenager, it was my job, and, you know, I wasn't treated very nicely when I did not do my job when my father wanted me to do that. There's a story I write in the book about— I don't know it. You know, yeah, yeah, you listen to it 3 times, but for me it was so traumatic, you know, and I still get mad about it. And my friends laugh about it because it was just one of those things, you know, that you go through as a kid. But I, I didn't do the roses, and I had, I, I had a football game. I was a pom-pom girl, you know, we do the halftime show, constantly working out. We were, um We had actually won first place in many championships and all of that, and so it was something I looked forward to. And I had to get home from school, get ready for the game, go to the game. I didn't have time for the roses, and my dad didn't say, you know, what's your schedule? When can you do this? He demanded I do it, and I said, well, I will do it sometime this weekend, wasn't good enough for him. So when I was at school, um, he took my dry-cleaned uniform that was ready for me to put on. It was made for you, wasn't it? Yeah, there wasn't another one. We had— we earned the money for them, we paid for them, they were altered specifically for us. And you know, those were times when you didn't have multiple of things. We just— nobody had the money. And we— anyways, and so Uh, he buried it in the, in the rose garden. And rose garden had about 40 bushes, and so there's plenty of space for him to bury it. And I went all over the house looking for it, asking my siblings, and then was told, well, check the rose garden. And there was a hole, and I, I undug the hole, and it was like looking for a body, you know. And there it was, and it was covered in dirt. And I, you know, tried to clean it off and there was no saving it. So I just went to the game and watched, and I didn't participate. And, um, you know, it really affected me, I think. And I've seen this on the bench. I had a father and mother whose child was about 19 and did some kind of petty theft, but it was enough to get in front of me, and I'm the higher court. So it wasn't a misdemeanor, it was more than a felony, or high court misdemeanor is more than one year. And I don't remember what he did, but it was minor compared to what I usually see. But when I talked to him and sentenced him and I gave him what we call HYTA, which is Holmes Youthful Training Act, I let him earn a non-public record. And I talked to him about school and where he's living and what he hoped to do and all those things that I try to get from people so I understand where they're going, where they've been. And he said to me, I don't have a real place to live. I said, I thought you were living at home. And he said, well, because of what I did, my parents are making me live out in the backyard. I have a tent. I'm only allowed to come inside for my meals, and, um, that's just to get the food, and then I have to eat it outside. And I can shower once a day, and I can use the bathroom. Otherwise, I have to live in the backyard. And I said, you're You're living really like a dog. And he said, yes, I feel like a dog. I'm very sorry for what I did, but I have to stay there. And I said, you matter. I know you did something wrong, but you will not be treated inhumanely. We're going to get you a place to live and a job and your education. And he burst into tears because this judge saying that he mattered when his own parents had put him in the backyard to teach him a lesson. That is not the way you teach someone a lesson, to toss them out and treat them like an animal. No, not at all. No, that's— but I mean, but he could, you know, to have you actually put this right. Yeah. And he burst into tears, and it was just— and I understood very well that feeling because it goes to the pit of your stomach, it goes to the core of your heart, and the people that love you most are not listening. They don't have reasonable expectations. And his family— I can't fault parents because I know that as a mom, I have 5 children, I've made my own mistakes, and none of our children come with, uh, you know, rule books. No, we don't get the manual, do we? Right. And, and nope, no parent is perfect. So I'm sure my kids can come on air and tell you all the wrong things that I've done, but What I have learned is that you really have to ask, you know, what would you like me to know? You have to get the backstory and you have to treat people like they matter and they have to know they matter. And I think if there's one thing that you all who are listening can do today, it's to turn to someone, whether it's a friend, whether it's your child or your parent, your neighbor, or just someone in the grocery store you might not know, but who, looks sad and just say, "I care about you. You matter. What would you like me to know?" That will change someone's life in ways you don't even expect. It happens to me every single day. And it's something that I wish I had more of when I grew up. I really feel like I had a loving family. I have no complaints there, but I also had to find my way in so many ways that made things very much harder for me than they had to be. And so I try to pass on the message, you know, let somebody know that they matter and ask, how can I help? And really help them. No, well, I think small acts of kindness are, um, well, actually, it was only 2 days ago that my daughter, my I've got 3 kids and 2 of them live in Ireland. So, you know, I'm mainland, they've, they've gone over there. And the middle one, who is a doctor, has spent the past year living between us and her grandma because, because of the journey and the shift patterns and all that sort of thing. So today, this morning, She's gone. She's, she's ordered a van. We weren't quite sure what it was going to be because she's organized it herself. And she's gone. They're doing it now. They're moving her now. I'm at home looking after the dog. And it feels like, well, it's, it's been, it's been a really busy week for me because she's been working and trying to move. So I've done an awful lot of things. So I've been to a shop that they must, they must wonder, they must think that I've got a problem because I go in there so often now buying lampshades and goodness knows what. And I was at the till paying and the guy in front of me, his card wouldn't work to pay for— he bought a garden, like a fire pit, you know, where you do the marshmallow thing, right? And he, he didn't have any other means of payment. And so I bought it for him. That's very nice. I have done that same thing. Yes, it's very meaningful to someone. Yeah, yeah. I just thought like I could understand, you know, how he wanted to use it and he, you know, he really liked the look of it. It was on sale. It was, um, you know, he couldn't understand why the payment didn't go through. And, you know, we're not— we're not talking sort of huge amount. And I said, look, honestly, I would It was actually like, I can see it means a lot to you, and it would actually mean a lot to me if you accept that I can buy this for you today. And he was like blown away. He said nobody's ever done anything like that before. Um, but it didn't— it just felt like the right thing to do. Um, yeah. And so anyway, yeah, he'll pay that forward. I, I did that, uh, I don't know, about a year ago, I was in line buying some food and the person in front of me did not have enough money for what was in their cart. And they didn't look like they had much money to begin with. And so I just said, "Here," and I paid for the rest of the groceries that they had so they didn't have to put anything back. And they just stood and stared at me and could not believe it either. And even the cashier looked at me like, "Are you strange, lady?" And I said, "Let me pay for this." And you know, it happens then that people do pay that back in the world. I know that a couple of years ago, I was with my kids and we were going through McDonald's, and the woman said, "It's already been paid." And I said, "Excuse me?" And they said, "The person in front of you paid for your meal." So— Oh, that was nice. Yeah, a few months later, I saw some college kids ahead of, or behind me, and I was ahead of them, and I said, "Whatever there is, let me pay for it." And so, you know, I think that when you put good in the world, it comes back tenfold. Yeah, and it— I think it's something, especially since the pandemic, that we've got out of a bit of habit of being, uh, kind and, and really thinking about other people. Um, that— so yeah, I mean, I felt really good. I mean, you know, it wasn't a huge amount of money, and it's not an expensive store, but, you know, it was something he wanted, and he could take it home and We've got amazing weather at the moment, and, you know, I hope they enjoy it. Um, so yeah, so today is the day that my third child has left, and, um, it's the dog and I, so we, we're muddling through this morning. It feels very strange, but there's still an awful lot of her stuff here. Do they ever actually really move out? Because no, no. My middle child moved out, let me see, almost a year ago. And she has a lock on her bedroom door. And I've said, "You've gotta unlock that door so we can clean it and redo it for one of your other siblings to move into or make it into a guest room." And she says, "Mom, I've lived there for so long, I still have to move things." I said, "You have your own home now. You have 3 floors, you have 3 bedrooms." What is there to do? Move into your home. You won't be living with us again. You can visit, you can stay for a while, but you will be living in your own home. And she says, but Mom— and I think it's, it's really they can't let go of their childhood, of the security that we've given them, which is a good sign. But my sister has told her— she has 3 boys, they've all moved out— and she is constantly saying, come get the stuff in your basement, I want to clean the basement. And they will pick up a box or two, but not all of them. I think it's hard, it's hard for parents to let go of those apron strings, you know, to our children, but it's hard for the children to let go, and they won't admit it, but they need that thing to always come home for. They might not admit it's us, they might say it's for their stuff, but it's really sit down and have a chat with us to have the coffee with us to tell us what's in their heart. And I, so I think it's a double-edged sword. We want to see this stuff gone, but yet it always brings them back to us and is their little excuse to come home. Yeah, and actually that's really quite nice. Um, and my son, you know, he— I said to him, because we need to— stuff has to be shipped for him. The only way I can go and visit him is if I take a plane, so I can't take all this stuff with me. And he's like, but Mom, I said, you've even got your own like man cave in your house where, you know, he's married. And he said, but I really like my things at home. So, so this is still in a way home. So I kind of done too bad a job. If they— the other one, my youngest one who lives in, in Southern Ireland, she's gone on, um on a festival for 4 days in the UK. Well, I looked in her room, it looks like she's had the festival in there and everybody's just got up and gone home. I, I've never seen it in such a state. Yeah. So, um, but anyway, it's quite— it is quite nice because it's— it does— I think, you know, for me, my story is that I was abused as a child, and in fact Today is quite a poignant day too, is that when I— I didn't live in the UK when I— I wasn't born here and we moved a long way. We moved here from another country. And one of the first things that I can remember doing when I was 4 was going with my mom and dad and buying a tortoise. And I had that tortoise with me until 3 years ago when it escaped and it's never been seen again. So when you've had a pet for 53 years and you've also been abused, that was almost something like a thread from my childhood that had come with me. And I can remember crawling after it through, through the garden, just following it, flattening quite a lot of plants that Dad wasn't very pleased about. But I wanted to— I don't know, it was my like little, like my little friend. It was a great pet. So I had this thing for 53 years and then he escapes and the neighbor goes, oh yes, I did see it walking down the street. Well, we don't actually have tortoises regularly walking anywhere here. So anyway, he's gone. 3 years on, I went and picked up, um, a rescue today. I've just settled her in and it feels really good to have a tortoise back in my life because it reminds me of like really nice times and times where my children were growing up and they, they grew up with it as well. And it's, you know, it's just one of the joyous things that I had from my past. That I feel it's really important for me to have now because, you know, my background is I was a teacher for over 20 years and I always said to the children, you know, if things mattered to them, they mattered to me. And everything that they enjoyed doing, it could spark really lovely warm memories for me. And I used to say to them, You know, grown-ups are just children with a few more years on. So, you know, this childhood stuff I think is important. Um, so yes, I think it's nice that they are still sort of here, but, um, in with all their stuff about and things. And I'm sure she'll be back, but on the other hand, yeah, it's absolutely great that she's moving out and and going to be doing things, and I won't have to lie awake at night wondering when she's coming in, because that is a thing that I just haven't been able to switch off when they go out. Do you do that? Yes, I do. But, you know, I want to tell you, one of the things that I think is the greatest gift is that we do get to see our children move out, go to school, buses, and my dad, who's now 88 and has Parkinson's, and it's progressing pretty rapidly. I don't know how long we'll have him, but my brother, who's 11 months and 2 days younger than me— I have 3 other siblings, but anyways, he and I were kind of raised like twins. And because he's a doctor, they talk kind of the same language, and Yeah, because your dad's a doctor, isn't he? He is a doctor. So my brother asked my father— this was last week— and he said, what was the best— my dad was having a very lucid day, and my brother said, what was the best part of your life? If you have to pick a time of your life, what's the best time? And my dad looked at him and said, now. And my brother was literally shocked and said, why do you say that, especially with Parkinson's and everything you have going on? And my dad said, because I know how the story ends. Which is very profound because he was really saying he knows we're all settled, we've done well, we're happy, we have kids. He knows the rest of the story. And he really said he couldn't ask for more than knowing, you know, he knows how it ends and with all of us and that he's at peace with that. And I just thought that was probably one of— he said a lot of profound things in his life, but that was probably the kindest, most thoughtful, most profound thing that I have heard him say. No, that's a great thing. I mean, with— as a parent, yeah, I'm absolutely, um, delighted to know that my kids are all sort of happy, they're successful, they've got friends, they've got busy lives, but they do have time for us. And seeing them grow up, um, I mean, that— I'm— I particularly, I feel very, very grateful that my children have grown up as they are and they've been able to do what they've wanted to do because they've had me. And some extremely difficult, uh, times they've had to know about things, you know. They've been— they, they know about the police investigation that I went to and things that you would really want to shield your children from. You'd want to shield anybody from, and they've had to go through some pretty dreadful and worrying times with me. And so to have them all go and be, you know, fine and independent in their own right— but yeah, I mean, she's— I've got it, we've got a date in the diary when she's coming home for, for a weekend in about a couple of weeks' time. So yeah, it's It is really good. So could we go back to you? We were talking about, um, you know, you, you got your legal system. Ours is quite different. I think that you're— I've watched you on your Zoom Court, uh, and also we do see a lot of cases from the States. The latest ones was, was Alex Jones, um, that got quite a lot of media coverage, and I honestly couldn't even believe that some people would even think that way, um, about the school, uh, shooting. Is it Sandy Hook? Um, yeah, yeah. So, um, but, but then, you know, I also learned a lot, and it made me sort of realize how people do think. And, you know, I being abused. I've certainly been brainwashed into, to things that I need to get myself out of, which isn't always easy. And also, I don't understand why this sharing around the world doesn't really go on, because my diagnosis of dissociative identity disorder— so it's like complex PTSD if you look at that on a ladder, um, it's the next rung up. It's not recognized in the UK, and I really want to change this because I am— well, I was 57 this week, and it's taken me 34 years to actually get to a specialist in this country. After 34 years in our National Health and private system, I've spent a lot of money on therapy when there aren't specialists here trained to diagnose and treat. So it actually took me, um, it's only 18 months that I've been with this, uh, place that I am now, and I've got another 5 years to go. But I was within 20 minutes of losing my life, um, to get this. That, that, that's how bad it had to get, um, because people don't understand DID. And now I'm with somebody who does, and she's been trained in Europe, and it's absolutely— well, it's just, thank goodness, you know, I'm getting the right thing. And we, she and I, uh, we meet this criteria because she is trained in in trauma to do a study that's being done in the United States. It's called Top DD and it's run by Dr. Bethany Bland. It's open to anybody in the world, but because in the UK we don't have any trauma specialists, then she and I— also because we've worked together for 6 years, where as most people would only get like 6 sessions and it might not even be with the right person. But, you know, the UK, we're not able to join these studies. I'm fortunate I can. We start in October and, you know, it's— there's been 40 years of research. So I just hope that we're going to catch up. I mean, I've been speaking to my Member of Parliament. He probably absolutely dreads his email box. Now every day, because I do send him things and I am really persistent. And I've said that if there's anything that I can do, if someone with lived experience, then I want to share it and I want to do something about it, because I find it difficult. Like you said, your words to me this morning were that I should think of it as groundbreaking, and I really needed those words. Thank you today. Because I've been feeling, I don't know, like survivor guilt, frustration that more people who are living with, you know, complex trauma aren't getting the right help because it's hard. It's really difficult even when you are getting the right help. But it's, it's, it's just horrendous when you're not getting the help at all. And the depth of pain— I think you must have seen, I don't know what the word for it is, but there's something that can just hit you inside so, so badly and so deeply. It's like being stunned and it's all locked in. And living like that is so hard when you look okay on the outside. And I think it's just— I think, like you said, you know, mental health and abuse is not a favorite topic of people, but it's got to be. We have to start doing it. And you've got lists, Delay, being a judge from COVID I mean, the backlog on stuff here is pretty bad. And for mental health, it's even worse. We weren't doing it very well anyway, and now it's just got to, you know, so, so bad. So I just— white countries do need to, to discuss and share. Um, the United States has got 40 years of research on complex PTSD and DID, so, you know, why not use it? Yeah. Talking about is you were— we'll catch everybody up a little bit. You were telling me that you were so honored to be in this program and you wish that other people could, and you felt bad for them. And yeah, ultimately my words to you are you should not feel bad for them. You have to focus on your healing and that you are a groundbreaker because they're taking 50 people into the program. 50 will turn into 500 and 5,000. It will only grow. It has to We have to start somewhere. And mental health, even in the United States, we have more help available here, but still not enough, especially after COVID. But it is not a sexy topic for legislators to walk in and say, well, this is my platform. And it's really difficult even for that people to raise money across the world because it's just not one of those things you wanna say, oh, I contributed to mental health. They'd rather say, "I contributed to get drugs off the streets and I'm helping kids." But what we really need to do is to take all the lessons the various countries have learned and have this think tank where we then partner together and we learn from each other so that we can have these kinds of programs start up quicker and faster and go farther to share the knowledge. And yet people don't do that. They want to be better than the next country. Well, we're all human beings. Yeah, equal. We all matter and we all should be treated the same and have the same opportunities across the world. And that will only happen if we partner together and share information. People would rather spend their money building bombs and firing guns than giving people the kind of support they need to be safe and happy and healthy and, and deal with, you know, traumatic events. Mental health and physical health is important. Without it, we don't survive. No, you're quite right, we don't. And I don't know if you— my guest last week was a really super lady called Joyce Marta. I don't know if you've heard of her, but she's a psychotherapist, but she now does more, uh, corporate sort of speaking to companies, which I absolutely, like, welcome so much. I mean, she speaks to conferences. Her largest one was 3,000 delegates and about mental health in the workplace. And she also talks a lot about mental, um, wealth and You know, what— and she, she uses research and she puts it so that you can understand it. She's done all the work, picked out the bits that are really helpful, and, and I find her extremely interesting, and she does an awful lot of good work. So I'm hoping that with this study that my therapist and I are doing, you know, we have to work together for a minimum of 3 months. Well, most people won't get that here at all, and, and they're not even trained, so they don't meet the first step anyway. And we've made this commitment to do this together, and these studies have been running for quite a few years now, and they are using the data in a really positive, informative way. And it does make me very angry that we're not— you know, more people need this. I know because there's loads of studies that, you know, there's thousands of survivors like me. And so I'm going to use the radio to talk about it and to try and raise more awareness. Like you say, you know, people would rather spend money on weapons, which is very, very sad. Oh, I'm— yeah, which actually brings me around to something that I was I, I have, um, I do have some friends from America that I like to keep in touch with, but usually just messaging. We don't usually get time to talk, but I've decided in my life I'd rather prefer to talk to people than just message all the time. I think if you can, it's the best thing to do. So I, I have this, um, lovely friend, but she's moving from state— from, uh, she was moving. It's a 10-hour drive to another state, and she's got kids. I was asking how the kids were getting on at their new school because they started before the summer break, and she was saying that they found this really brilliant school. It was, um, everything they wanted, and every room, hall, um, I don't know, library, dining area, cafeteria, has a pod. And I, oh, okay, um, a pod. Well, as a teacher, the only use of pod I've ever heard referred to is like a, a quiet zone for children who need some, some time out or to do work in a different way. But she was talking about bulletproof shelters to put the children in, um, if there's a school shooting. And, and then we've never really had this conversation, but she could not believe that I do not have a gun. Like, we do not have a gun in our house. I don't know anybody in the UK who has a gun unless they're a farmer. And she, she has, she has two with her all the time. She's like, how have you protected your kids? It's not something that we would even think about. Um, and I just wondered what your thoughts were. I mean, you're a mom. Um, and they were talking about drones with tasers as well. I mean, That's, that's a whole new, um, how, how somebody gets to control a drone and accurately taser the right person. And as a teacher, they were also suggesting, um, the parents that maybe teachers could have— were armed. Well, as a teacher, it's a huge responsibility and a great privilege to be with, you know, a class of children for 6 hours a day, and it's a massive responsibility. I was more careful and felt, you know, more care and concern over those children than my own, really, you know, because I'm responsible for them completely. So to have the thought that I might have to protect them from this sort of incident was It's something that we— I think we've had like once, years and years and years ago, where somebody got into a school. Um, so I just wondered what your thoughts were on, on guns and, and school pods. So we have had a number of school shootings in America, huge tragedies. Absolutely. Yeah, I, I don't think it's guns that are going to stop the killing. I think there needs to be better security and cameras and mental health treatment and a whole lot of other things. I'm a judge. Some of the judges carry guns. I don't. I was in the military for 20 years. I know how— I know how to break down big weapons and small weapons, clean them, fire them, zero them, do all of it. And I understand how much of a responsibility it is. If I choose to have a weapon, it will be a taser because generally tasers stun but don't kill. It'll be enough time to get away. But here's the thing that I think people need to understand. It— if I were to say this last year, the number one killer of children, uh, was car accidents, and the number two is guns. That has since risen. The number one killer of children is guns. Is it? It's the number one killer of children, guns. So in America. So why is that? Because people leave them laying in drawers. They don't keep them how they're supposed to. They don't separate the gun and the bullet. They don't regularly clean them. They misfire. There are children— there's constantly stories of children who pick up a gun. And there was one a few months ago where a 6-year-old at his own birthday party picked up his dad's gun, thought it was a toy, and killed himself. I had a case recently with a dad and a mom who were in a vehicle and they had the gun sort of rolling around in the car and they had 3 young children and one of the children, he was about 4 years old, picked up the gun and fired it. Now he didn't die, but the bullet went through his arm and his leg and he's just fine. But again, how horrifying. And it is a huge responsibility. There are other answers before we get to weapons. And I'm not opposed to weapons. There just has to be responsible gun ownership. Has to be training. And really, before we end up giving guns to everybody who shouldn't have them, we need to have mental health, screening, mental health help. We need to have evaluations, medications, things that are available to treat people, because many of the people who've shot up the movie theaters, the schools, and all of that, they were bullied, they were traumatized somehow, they had signs, warnings that they needed mental health treatment. They didn't get it. And so We need to answer other things, and then maybe we can use guns for target practice or hunting or the things they're supposed to be used for, and killing each other. Yeah, I mean, every time I hear about these incidents in schools, I— it's— well, it's just my heart goes out to them. You do have— well, you should have an absolute 100% guarantee that when you drop your child off at school in the morning and then that you're going to be able to pick them up in the afternoon and that they were healthy and happy and had a really good day and learnt a lot. So yeah, it is a massive tragedy, but I mean, you know, some of the Students who've had guns, they're not even old enough to drink alcohol. Why do they have a gun? Exactly. So it's amazing to me that now in America they have— I don't know how much you followed, and I don't know what it is in your country, but women can no longer get abortions. We have to pass laws because— Oh. Yeah, but you can get a gun. You can get a gun and kill a human, But now women are third place. So men are first place, fetuses are second, unviable fetuses, I should say, 'cause there's a point where I don't think you should be able to get an abortion. But when a fetus is viable, I don't think you should be able to get an abortion. But, you know, it's your body, your choice. And that's a choice between you and your doctor and your partner. And, you know, now women, we are going backwards. We are third-class citizens behind men and, unviable fetuses. And it's not a really good feeling when we get, uh, incarcerated. You'll have a felony. The doctor and the woman can have a felony, but yet guns are freely given. So is it because it was this, um, it was, it was Roe versus Wade, and it was a big thing here too. And when I, when I looked it up, if I hear about something, I do like to to find out a bit more about it. That was passed in 1973, and it's like, do people really understand, you know, that, um, it was this, um, it was a— it was like a Jane Doe name, wasn't it, for, for somebody? Um, and she's, she's no longer alive, but it took 3 years to get do that. And now it's gone to the Supreme Court, the only people— the court in the US that could have changed that. And then the next day that you've got a 10-year-old girl who's been raped, who was going to have an abortion because of being in that situation, had to go to another country for that. And yeah, it does It doesn't seem like it's the— there's— I don't know. I know it's very controversial, but— and I'm really pro-life, but you're now going to have an awful lot more children who are, who are going to need adopting or taking into the care sector, um, and an awful lot more families and mothers who who are going to need substantial amounts of help without this. Yeah, but you know, the crime starts at the inception, right? So there's two partners in this crime. Okay, so what's happening to the men who impregnate the women? What about the incest cases? I have multiple incest cases in front of me, and I recently had one with a young girl who looked for her father. She didn't know her father, and she was about 12, 13, got curious, went on the internet, and she found her father and started a relationship with him. And what she didn't know is that he was a sex offender, which is probably why the mother did not want her to have a relationship with him. Yeah, but she did, and he started raping her. She ends up getting pregnant, and she didn't know. She was a little bit low-functioning and very wonderful girl, but She didn't know it was wrong. She— his excuse was, well, she wanted it. She ends up getting pregnant, has the baby, tries to raise the baby, and then tells me that I'm, you know, in, in through tears, I love my baby, but I had to give my baby up for adoption because I couldn't take care of it because it looks just like my father. And I now know, I now know what my dad did to me was wrong. And he— she says, I want you to do, you know, the full extent of the law. And I said, under the plea agreement, I can't, so I don't have to accept it. But then you'll have to go to trial, and you'll have to testify and be cross-examined. Are you willing to do that? Because if you just say the word, and we'll go to trial. I don't want to accept this very light deal that he got for pleading guilty. And she thought about it for about a minute, and she said, "No, no, I can't. I can't testify." Now, she was near suicidal just talking about it. I felt it. I saw it. And so, I accepted this deal. But, you know, it's also a bit backwards. When you have the child who's born, you have the DNA. Why does she have to face the dad? Why doesn't the dad who raped her have to face the DNA of the child and try to explain that to a jury? You know, why are we re-traumatizing victims who have been raped through incest? It is very difficult. They are put in a box where they, you know, they love their parent, they hate their parent, they now have this child, and they have to give away the child they like, they love, and would have liked to raise. And it is so problematic. And when you do not allow abortions in those situations for rape, for incest to save the life of the mother, you know, what kind of society are we turning into? Women don't have a voice over their own body. Our medical records, I'll be having to sign subpoenas to get into medical records that are actually protected right now, but not if the police think that a woman's had an abortion, they'll be able to get in the woman's medical records, but not the men's. So how many women are going to be honest with their doctors? How many doctors are going to be jailed? Because right now there's, there was, I just read an article in Michigan that prosecutors can charge doctors with felonies. So what kind of doctors are going to stay in a state where they could be, if they do family practice, OB-GYN, how are they going to survive in Michigan if they're constantly under scrutiny. And, you know, the other problem is, which people are not talking about, is, oh well, we'll give abortions to save the woman's life. Well, when is it a point where you save the woman's life? Because is that when she's on the table and, you know, she's gonna code, and then they try to save her because she's now septic? She's way beyond being saved when they know a baby's dead. Dead or is not going to survive, why are you not going to allow the abortion? They're saying because, you know, the mother's fine. Well, at what point do you do the abortion, when the mother's now septic? There are so many questions and they're all against women. It doesn't matter— Absolutely right. You're pro-choice or pro-life, let's talk about the bottom line is, as a woman, you are less than. Yeah, it is, it is incredibly— I mean, will this change? I mean, it's now the decision of each state, isn't it? Or are they all waiting to see what everybody else is doing? Yeah, and the states will, will make the changes. But now, you know, those states that say you can't have an abortion, are the doctors going to move? I mean, when I retire, I'm not gonna live in a red state. I'm not gonna live in a state that doesn't treat me as a whole person. Even if I love the state, I might visit there, but I'm not gonna live there. And I'm way past the age of having children, but I'm not going to participate in allowing a state to grow on me spending money there when they are not respecting women.— and it's okay if you're pro-life or pro-choice. With me, it's your choice. That's a choice between God. That's you and God. Why is my government looking in my bedroom and my medical records? Why? Why are they demeaning me and diminishing me? Why are they not giving me a free voice with my doctor that the men have? No, you're absolutely right. It is. And where's the punishment for the man? The crime begins at sex. You know, and now what? Are women not going— there's some thought that, you know, women shouldn't maybe be on birth control pills because, you know, it stops the— yeah, you're stopping a child. Yes. So we can't be on birth control pills, then what about the men? And are they, you know, are, are they going to be prosecuted when they masturbate because now they have gotten rid of semen that could be a child? Ridiculous. And what about IVF? All those people who are infertile, who are going through in vitro, you know, they can go through that, but, you know, if they have 10 eggs and they use 2 and they do not want any more children, then it will be a crime to get rid of the fertilized eggs. Will they then be imprisoned? Will the doctors be imprisoned? What is going to happen? Is that how they are going to read this? Yes, because that's when life is created. They look at when the fertilized egg— so what about all those people who are suffering with infertility? They can be pro-life, pro-choice, it doesn't matter. As soon as you get rid of that fertilized egg, you are— have committed murder. Now that's ridiculous, because there's no viability there. No, that's totally ridiculous. It's not even, you know, it's not even in a uterus. Start, um, but it is life according to them. It's life. So there's so many questions. Um, 6— over 60% of the United States is not in agreement with this, and they haven't defined it. It could end up in a war between the states. It's, it's troublesome because now they're also going to attack gay marriages and gay adoptions and, you know, all of that, which I can tell you I did 20 years of work with child abuse neglect, and those people who, you know, the gays, straight, bi, it doesn't matter how you feel about them. I think they have a right to do whatever they want. I don't wanna look in anybody's bedroom. I don't care what your sexual preference or orientation is. I just care about you as a human being. And I can tell you that I saw so many of the gay marriages or people people who were prior to the marriages being legal, those were the people who were adopting the imperfect children. And what are we going to do with all of these imperfect, imperfect children? Are the pro-lifers going to stand in line to adopt them? I don't see that happening. No, no, because a friend of mine, she wanted— yeah, she did, she wanted to adopt. In the States, and the process to try and get that agreed, they had to pull out. It was too stressful, it was too stressful on the rest of the family. So if you're suddenly going to have all these children that are born in circumstances, situations where it's just not going to work out, then you're going to have to improve the process of how you do How you, how you get them cared for? It's unbelievable. And just going back to, I think it first started in 1968, and it took 3 or 4 years to get the Roe versus Wade decision made. And now you've gone— yeah, because America's usually, you're usually a front-runner on things, really. It was for 49 years, and now, you know, they've done this. They should be focusing on getting rid of human trafficking and the war on drugs and guns and all the other things, and this is what they're doing is they're degrading women. But we could talk about this maybe on another show. I know we're running short, but you know, so many issues that attack women. I always love talking to you. Great. Yeah. We're all so grateful for that. So, um, well, we, we, I know that you, you're on holiday and your kids will be, um, wanting to go out and, uh, and enjoy those few days with you. And, uh, I'm gonna go and see, see how my tortoise, my new tortoise Florence, is getting on. And, um, I've got given a list of all the things that apparently she likes to eat, um, and I'd only got two of them. But I have bought cucumber, and he said, no, she will not like that. Well, she's eaten about half of it already. So, um, I'm gonna go outside and have a little bit of time with my, my new tortoise and see how she's enjoying the garden. We've spent 2 weeks putting up wire to keep this one in. Um, so you enjoy your holiday, and just absolutely lovely as always to speak to you. Um, I, I've, you know, everything you ever speak about is it's just you. It's honest, it's funny, it's just, you know, it's current, and you have such good words. You really helped me, and I'm sure you help— well, I know you do help an awful lot of people. So thank you so much, and I'm afraid we need to say goodbye.