Hidden Gems – Farah Rahman

Hello and welcome to Hidden Gems with Maya on women's radio station the voice of women worldwide. Coming to you from our studio in London, Hidden Gems is designed to inform and inspire our listeners by showcasing extraordinary women in the world of mining as well as the jewelry and gemstone industry. Today on Hidden Gems, we're joined by Farah. She's an entrepreneur and retail jeweler. Farah's been in the industry for 10 years and she's based here in London. So, Farah, over to you. Welcome. Hello. Thanks for having me here today. Let's begin with this or that so we get to know you a little bit better. Okay. Would you rather go to the beach or to the ski slopes? Beach. Aquamarine or amethyst? Aquamarine. That was a really solid, straight aquamarine. Breakfast or dinner? Dinner. Silver or gold? Gold. Staying in or going out? Going out. Ooh, it's your birthday today, isn't it? Forry it is. How are you celebrating? I've got a surprise later. Not quite sure what it is. You'll find out when you get there. Okay. Emeralds or diamonds? That's a tricky one, isn't it, really? Maybe emeralds with diamonds. Oh, la la. I like your thinking. Running or yoga? Oh, neither's really for me. Okay, we can skip that one. Rubies or sapphires? Sapphires, definitely. Do you have any? What is your affinity towards sapphires? Well, actually, it's my birthstone, probably. Maybe that's why, though I didn't realize until quite later in life. But maybe that's why I've always liked them. You've been drawn to them. Makes sense. Okay, for it. Let's hear a bit more about your background and how you ended up where you are today. Describe who you are and what you do in your own words. So I'm currently a designer jeweller based in Hatton Garden. I live in London. I have a background in design gemology. I'm a gemologist and a valuer. And how did you get to that? So I started with university, did a foundation. I went to St. George St. Martin's which is an art school in London. And then I continued my study with doing the jewelry design course at St John Saint Martins, which was really, really good. Great experience, loads of international people, really fun. And then I went to gia, which is a very. It's a Gymnological Institute of America, and that's where I studied that. And that's where you study your gemmology? Yeah, exactly. Are you still in touch with any of your old classmates? Yeah, quite a lot, actually. You don't realize what a great network you build there. It's a global institute and London people want to study there, so you get to meet a lot of people. It's such a hub, isn't it? Okay, so you're a trained gemologist, you run your own business, and you are the true epitome of girlboss, as I like to say. Who is it that you work with in terms of. You said you're in Hatton Garden. Do you work with other jewelers or lapidaries, labs? A bit of everything, actually. It's whatever the client requires. So if a client requires something cut, then, yeah, you need lapidary. If you need specific stones, you've got the diamond dealers, coloured stone dealers from all around the world, you've got your goldsmiths, polishers, everyone, really everyone. You need everyone in the trade, don't you? Absolutely. So talk me through the process. If I wanted to source an engagement ring, that's one of my favorite jobs. Eternal happiness. Exactly. I love an engagement ring. It depends. It's quite good for the. If it's a couple, you know, simple, they're both there. If it's easier one partner, then, you know, they've got to do a bit of investigation. It's quite good, really. When they try and get friends involved, the partner will tend to tell someone what they want, very specific, what they like. Someone will know somewhere. But if they don't know, I go, if you love it, you love them, they'll love it. But it's true. I've never had anyone go, oh, not very good. You present them with a diamond ring, they're very happy. Anything. Even if they like a colored stone, you know, we always work to whatever budget is available. You don't want to say, this is the average. Sometimes people come to you and go, what's the average spend? No, there's no average. It just depends, doesn't it? Exactly. Your partner will not want you to spend any more than you can afford. And if they do, well, then you've got to consider what you're doing. Farah, would you say that our industry welcomes women at all levels, from interns to C level and in leadership roles? Would you say it's an accessible industry for women? It can be a bit tricky. How so? It can be a bit tricky. I mean, often when you start in the industry and you've got quite a lot of education behind you, even if you haven't, they will try and think that you're just a sales girl or automatically. I agree with that. Naturally. And then you come in at this entry level and that's fine because actually everyone needs sales and jewelry. If you can't sell pieces of anything, then how are you going to sell an engagement ring? That's impossible. You're not going to know what your client wants, what they need. So, fine, that's not a problem. I did the same as did some sales before I started working hat and garden. But it can at times be more tricky. I mean, you do find yourself condoning some sort of behavior because you're like, you know, the industry tends to be quite old, but it is changing. It is older generation and male dominated. That is the regular pattern. I mean, once you start selling things, then people change their opinion quite quickly. You have to almost prove yourself. Would you say you have to prove yourself a bit more? I think sometimes, but it's getting better. But, you know, there's still room for growth, I think. But how can we sort of let the. Not always older generation, but sometimes people who think, well, you know, she's just a young girl, she only been doing it for 10 years, I've been doing it for 73 years. And how can we teach them that? Actually, it's okay, we do know what we're talking about and we're specialists. Sometimes you will find someone of that duration who is actually really open and they'll go, why? Like one of my old bosses, actually, it was like someone called in and went, can I speak to the manager? And he went. And he knew what I was saying was correct and he went, tell them, whispered, tell them you're the manager. I'd only been there maybe six months, but he was so sure I knew what I was doing. And he went, you tell them that you are in charge. And he trusted your view and your opinion and your specialist opinion. And he'd been in the trade at least 50 years. So, you know, not everyone is like that. There are, you know. But then the person on the other end was a bit like that. But he had complete faith in what I was doing. And by the end of the phone call, everybody was happy. I mean, he thought I was the manager, didn't he? That's a good point. And Farah, what's it like as a woman in your role? Have you faced any challenges? It's been really good. People really like the opinion. I don't know whether it's because I'm female or just the way it is. I've not really faced any problems as of yet. It's been quite simple. I feel like sometimes I know what a lady would like more, but it's been. It's been good. And what are you currently working on at the moment? Currently I'm working on a couple of engagement rings. Are you allowed to say anything about them? One's actually for a very good friend of mine. Does she know? No. Fabulous. I know, it's been great. These are the ones I really, really love because she's got no clue. And it's lovely just putting someone off. You just chuck them off the scent and then, you know. In a few months. Sure. No, it takes months then. Yeah, it takes months. People would normally prepare quite a long way in advance. Actually, someone email me today going, saw your things, love them. I want to propose in 2020. When do I start preparing? Wow. Yeah, Actually another one whose engagement ring I made last year, preparing their wedding band designs for 2020. So lovely you get to do the full suite. Perhaps they'll come back for some eternity rings or something else later. Yeah, I just sent something up to Scotland actually, to a lovely lady. They were so sweet and they came down to London to see me, sent their pieces up and now she wants to get her bridal earrings made. Oh, hooray. Yeah. And when's her wedding? In 2020. Her wedding? 2019. Yeah. Wow, so soon. So how long does it take from having the idea in your head as a drawing to the final piece? It really depends on the individual. It depends how clear they have in their mind. You know, sometimes it takes literally one appointment. One appointment, we're done. That's the dream situation, isn't it? Because then you can just get on with it. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes, you know, it takes a couple of times they might have an idea like, oh, she really, really loves pear shapes. They see a pear shape, they see the finest pear shape I can bring them. They don't quite like it and luckily I've brought a round with me. Often it's round. Round is one of the most popular cuts as well. The most popular bring a round out and they're like, I like this. You're like, what? That's cause you don't like pear shapes. You just have to sort of help them focus on what it is they actually like. Yeah, exactly. And Forra, can you explain the current jewellery industry in London and where else do you work? Where else do you go for work? Well, now the trade in Hatton Garden is slowing up, I was thinking about getting a premises there. Oh. But it's getting a bit slower. Trade's not as busy, so I mean, I still Work with the traders and things. But it is slowing up. I do work by appointment now. Ah, that makes sense. I think that's a logical next step. Yeah, exactly. So in around London, Hertfordshire, you know, Home Counties, Essex obviously, then got clients coming up from other parts of the country, other countries coming into London. So it's changing to more of a industry on the go. Ah, yeah. Well your arrival today kind of tells us a lot about that. What do you think is the reason behind that? Why is there a slowdown? Everyone is so busy I think and people are being more considered when they're spending. So people aren't buying as many jewelry items, they're saving maybe for the engagement ring. They're not spending as much as they normally would spend on engagement because of mortgages and you know, the way the economy is. And then also everyone's working so much that they like the convenience of you going to them and that's why the buy appointment structure works really well. Completely. It's worked for me so well. I mean sometimes I do, I judge take quite ask quite frequently. Oh, would you prefer if I had a premises that you come to in this area? There you go. Every time from the trade side you hear, you should really, really think about getting one. Yeah, I'm like, well how can I when my clients tell me they want to see me in the evenings? I can't stay in the shop until 10:00pm no, no, no, it's just not worthwhile. I mean I'd just be sat there all day, wouldn't I have an empty shop all day in the evening, non stop running around till 2am or something. Exactly. And in terms of the online world, can you say a little bit more about that online? So I haven't got an E commerce website as of yet. It's more because my style of jewelry I do is bespoke, one of a kind individual tailor made to the client. It's quite tricky doing that on an E commerce kind of site because you know you're doing starting from this, that and the other. However, Instagram is really handy. I'm obsessed. I say this probably in every interview and our beautiful technician here is probably sick of hearing me say it, but I'm obsessed with Instagram. I think it's just such a wonderful platform and it's a great way to connect with trade and with your end client as well as just a visual archive of what you do. It's a great way and sometimes people won't necessarily, they'll follow you and they won't do anything straight away. And then maybe in six months, a year, they'll go, oh, hold on. And then come back to you. And it's a slow game. Yeah. You know, and you just have to be patient. I think you just have to go with the natural, organic flow of Instagram movement. Exactly. I mean, in the beginning you think, oh, I'm just wasting my time. But it's just a very, very slow process and it builds, you know, the customer bond. People like seeing the images, they like seeing all the kinds of different pieces. Absolutely. Farrah, we're going to hear a bit more about you after the break and we'll see you then. WRS Women's radio station. Voice of Women Worldwide, Sarah's Universal Soul Show. What does your soul or spirituality mean to you? Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Welcome back. I'm Russ Cain. You're listening to in conversation with on Women's Radio Station. I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy. And we're open. To see what other programs we have on Women's Radio station, head to our website, womensradiostation.com I'm Isabelle Manevy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 07-98442-2171. I'm listening. Mira EB Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. 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And we're open to share our own personal stories dealing with life events, staying positive through the tough times. Share your stories too. What worked, what didn't? Join us each week for Open. We know you're gonna love it. Women's radio station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to to our website. Every little will help. Welcome back to Hidden Gems with Maya on women's radio station the voice of women worldwide. Coming to you from our studio in London, Hidden Gems is designed to inform and inspire our listeners by showcasing extraordinary women in the world of mining as well as the jewellery and gemstone industry. Today on Hidden Gems, I'm joined by Farah. She is a gemologist, RA retail jeweller and an awesome individual, if I may say so. Varo. I'd like to know a little bit more about a memorable piece of jewellery or some exciting gemstones that you've come across in your career to date. Well, I've seen quite a few fun things, but actually one recently, it's not mine. What are you allowed to talk about? Of course. Well, it was something that someone was making, fixing. I actually know they had made it. It was a royal tiara. I don't know who had it, I don't know whose it is. All I know is it was fabulous. Can you describe it a bit more? It was made from a necklace. It was from a necklace. Oh. When they convert the necklaces into tiara. Yeah. They flip it up and then so many diamonds. So many old cat diamonds. Oh, they're my favorite. It was amazing. And I wore it. Of course I did. Will you have to take any photographs? Yes, I will show you later. I love tiaras. I'm obsessed. I wasn't fake makeup ready, that was the only problem. So I didn't feel like quite a princess. But, you know, it did make my day. But real princesses don't need the makeup. You just throw the tiara on, you're good to go. Just fancy like that. Just how you roll. Farah. Just before the break, we were talking about sort of the slowdown in Hatton Garden. But can you say where you think the industry's going going forward for the next sort of five to 10 years? What's going to happen next? The problem is that we have a lot of people selling diamonds online, you know. Yes. There's a lot of retailers that sell them at cost price Slash, importing them from overseas. That's not a problem. The problem comes when people like clients will go look to buy diamonds in those online situations, look at the weight and don't realize the weight's not the only thing you're meant to be looking for. You know, the reason we have the four Cs, to get a balance within them. And some people do think that the cut's preferable. The carrot, the color, they don't realize it's an all encompassing. I once saw someone had bought someone and he had bought someone. I didn't know someone who had known someone who knew me and bought a half. Half or no, I think it was a 30 pointer, which is a third of a carrot, basically, in a KVVS2 senseless. GIA certified. Why you want to intervene? I'm just like perspiring looking at you, thinking, oh gosh, why didn't they ask? I mean, a K color is such a low color, a VVS2 such a premium for a clarity. It's senseless to put those two things together. Senseless. And that's what happens when you have online diamond dying online gemologists, which are not really. I'm not saying that they're not qualified, because they are. I'm sure they are, whoever's selling it. But it's better to sometimes have that in person experience and have that. One of the recent rings I've done, actually, one of the ones I'm doing wedding bands for, they actually wanted a pink diamond originally. Yes. Now they came to me saying, oh, one of these online shops have got me a pink diamond. Oh, for crying out loud. I was like, oh, have they? Okay, but they retrusted me. I was like, how about pink sapphire? I know your budget, you know, how about you try pink sapphire? It's a lovely stone, nice, hard wearing, beautiful color. You get a better carrot, it'll be a better spread. So it'll be bigger on her finger, you know, she'll love it. He was like, please try. I'm sure you can try. Now, his budget was, you know, a few thousand, not the 15,000 per carat that you'd be looking for to get a pink diamond. Rare, pink, fancy. Oh, my gosh. Exactly. He wanted that perfect, pristine, baby pink kind of color. You know, that color which we've got in a pink sapphire. Fine. But the problem is this online retailer had told him they had pink diamond for two and a half thousand pounds or three thousand pounds. Impossible. I went, can you please show me it? He showed me, absolutely. And I went, how have they got this. Can you show me the certificate? They had the picture sent it, saw the certificate, it was brownie pink. It was like main color brown. And they hadn't told him there was anything. I think transparency is huge for us in our industry. Yeah. And he felt quite cheated anyway. He came to me anyway. But he did, he did feel cheated because they should have said the exact description. You know, pictures are photoshopped anyway. You know, it's not taken outside and you know, they should have been more clear. And these are problems I think the industry is facing. You know, people cross reference prices thinking they're getting the same thing. That's not always the case. But then how's it going to change that over the next coming years? I think maybe shoppers will become like, realize that they probably like seeing things in real life. But if not, we're gonna have to adapt more. We're gonna have to find a way of getting around it or making things. I don't know. You can't really make things cheaper because diamonds are so expensive in themselves. But I mean, I think people always, there will always be some sort of clientele that trust and want to speak to someone and want to go that process rather than just picking it online, popping in and seeing it. You know, you get two different types of clients, don't you? I always think there's space for perhaps not bricks and mortar, but there's certainly always space for face to face. Yeah, exactly. Because most of the clients you do get do want that face to face experience. Not everyone's going to be researching online and studying how to. They don't have time. Nobody has time. They'd be surprised to go online. And I think they, people do. They'll come with all the knowledge about the percentage of cut grades. Oh, I know. I don't really remember the percentage of cut grades anymore. And I mean I did pretty well. And yes, when you're at the gaa, it's fine. It's like top of your head. They were like the, the percentage of the, like, what do they want? Like, they were like, I know this potential needs to be this and the cue needs to be like this. And I was like, how do you remember this? And they went, I remember this is when I was working in one of my old jobs. What you want? I'm not the person to get this for you. I'll have to find someone else. I remember as well one of my old bosses, we needed to know RI's in the top of reflective indexes off the top of our heads. And I just thought, oh my word. I mean, to a point with the most common ones, fine, if you're grading frequently, but you're not going to really remember, I don't know, just it doesn't come off the top of your head at all. Farah, what are your hobbies outside of work? Are you interested in much music, film? We talked a bit about Netflix off air. I do like watching films. It's a really good way to relax and unwind, you know, a good way to just switch a roll off, just, you know, downtime. I used to have a dog and so I take her walking, which is a good time to go speak to people because obviously when you work for yourself, you know, you see a lot of times there's less interaction, isn't there? Well, it's just you and the client as opposed to in an office setting. And you don't want to chew your friends ears off all the time. So you're like, oh, go meet my dog walking friends. What sort of dog do you have? She is a Pomeranian Chihuahua cross. Oh my gosh, she must be tiny. She is quite small. She is quite small. Okay, sorry, back to the gems. What is your favorite gemstone? You mentioned sapphires earlier. This is really tricky, you know, it's quite hard being a. It's really tricky. I think maybe I'm screedy. I like them all. I really like opals. You know, they're really amazing. That's very unusual. They are, they're amazing. But you know, it's tricky. You get really lovely aquamarines, but then I think I keep it in a box rather than wear it because I don't think it suits my skin tone. But you're certainly drawn to blues, isn't it, Akla? I am, aren't I? Didn't realise unknowingly. Yeah. Farah, from a personal and professional perspective, who and what is your source of inspiration? My clients inspire me quite a lot. I'm quite driven to always succeed in giving them what makes them happy. You know, you get a lot of retailers that want to make the maximum budgets. You know, money doesn't drive me. I would rather give them a good service, give them everything they want, make them happy and make them sure they come back to me again rather than make a bigger profit margin. Profit margin is important, of course. I'm not going to be naive and go, it's not. But you know, when you get a client saying, what's better, platinum or white gold? I go, well, what's your budget? Let's let's talk about that first. I know platinum is harder wearing technically, but white gold, you know, stood the test of time. You know, I give them an even knowledge of, you know, platinum. Does this white gold, does this make the decision? This is the price difference. I'm not going to push them. And then they decide, yeah, I'm not going to push them to go platinum just because it cost me more. Like, I can make maybe like 100, 200 pounds more. There's no point. It's not really worth it. Yeah. And what motivates you to stay in this role and in this industry? You know, I kind of fell into jewelry quite an accident, I thought, going to an art degree. I do advertising or something and then it's, oh, jewelry. Oh, I go to jewelry to school dji. And then it's somehow just, you know, it's always interesting, it's always developing. I'm always adding new skills like, you know about with trade, a lot more doing valuations now, you know, always adding things to it so it doesn't get so repetitive. Absolutely. But you seem to have quite a lot of organic growth. Yeah. Has been actually naturally. Accidentally naturally, Yeah. I mean, you have a slight plan and then it grows. Depends who you meet. Yes. Because that can completely change the direction of where you're going. Yeah, exactly. And for what advice would you give to your younger self or to young women who are joining the trade? Don't give up, don't be put off. You know, just don't always chase money either. It's tricky in jewelry, you know, you don't get paid very well at the beginning most of the time. And I see a lot of people, I know a lot of, you know, young women starting in it and they're like, that's not going to pay me very well. Yep. It doesn't pay you very well. But the skills and knowledge you'll gain from getting those beginning jobs and your salary can increase very quickly if you can put the work in and prove yourself, you know, and I think that puts people off. You know, you're starting on a basic entry level salary, but in a year you can increase it if you can prove that you are worth keeping, you know, you can do that yourself. That's very true. And is there anything else you'd like to tell us before you go? Perhaps your social media. What is your handle on Instagram? It's Farah and Bo. It's that on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And then the website is farahandbo.com. okay. Absolutely. Oh, thank you. So much for coming onto the show. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I'll be talking to Farah Rahman, who is a gemologist, retail jeweler, entrepreneur, and as I said earlier, an awesome individual. You're listening to Hidden Gems with Maya on Women's Radio Station. If you have any questions for us, you can email presentersomensradiostation.com or you can find us on Instagram and Twitter womensradiostn. You can also check out my blog, the Carrot Soup. Carrot spelled C A R a T and that's carrot soup. On Facebook, on Instagram and carrotsoup.com thank you for listening. WRS Women's radio station Voice of Women Worldwide. This is Amy Liu, Voice of China at Women's Radio Station. Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. After a long day, I like to sit in my bath with a glass of wine and listen to women's radio cameras. Kate, you're listening to in conversation with with on Women's Radio Station. To see what other programs we have on Women's Radio station, head to our website, womensradiostation.com Are you looking to enhance your career? Are you looking to grow your business? Well, then why not? Visit wearthecity.com wearthecity.com is a website for working women. It's full of inspirational stories of women that have been there, seen it and done it. We also feature events, women's networks and other articles that may help you to progress both in terms of your connections and business ideas. Visit wearethecity.com and take your business or career to the next level. Mirae B Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offering is diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client database, we take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. Would you like to know more? Please call 077-868-4-8998 for further information. Mirae B Limited making the life of the business owner successful. Would you like to host your own radio show? Would you love to be doing what I'm doing right now and be a radio presenter on Women's Radio Station? If you're passionate on your subject or topic, we'd like to hear from you, wherever you are in the world, about what's happening in your country, town or city. It's your station, your voice to women of the world. So contact us. Send an email to involvedomensradiostation.com. I'm Isabelle Manavy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I've seen this transform lives. For more information, look on women's radio website. Call me on 079-84422. I'm listening. Women's radio station is a not for profit community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. Hello, it's Maya from Hidden Gems with Maya on women's radio station the voice of women worldwide. For today's episode, we have a special edition coming to you live from ijl which stands for International Jewellery London. And we're here at Olympia in Kensington at a live trade show. Today on Hidden Gems. I am thrilled to say I am joined by Karen Smit. She's a research scientist at the Gemmological Institute of America. In their words, it's the world's foremost authority in gemmology. In my words, and as a proud alum of gia, it's an excellent foundation for my gemology education. Karen's been in the industry for over a decade and is based in New York City. So, Karen, over to you. Hi everyone. So I'm thrilled to be here and I'm hoping that I can tell you a little bit more about my very interesting career and hopefully inspire people to. To study geology and join the world of diamonds. That'd be amazing. We're going to start with a little bit something a bit personal, kind of this and that, you know, sort of. Would you rather have, I don't know, would you rather go to the beach or go to the slopes? Tricky question, but I think the beach will always win here. Although I do enjoy skiing as well. Okay, what about baguette? Cut or brilliant cut? Brilliant. Asher cut or pearcut? Asher. Breakfast or dinner? Breakfast. Wholesale or retail? Wholesale. That's always a funny question for somebody who's in a lab. I think perhaps I ought to have amended that one slightly. Okay. What about staying in or going out? Staying in all the time wins definitely over going out. Absolutely. I think as we get busier with our lives, it's so much better to have that chance to just, you know, chill out. Absolutely. Netflix and chill. Emeralds or diamonds? I like both. I like the color of emeralds, but you know, I study diamonds and diamonds can tell you so much more about the deep earth and they can tell us so much about how our planet formed. So I'm going to go for diamonds just because I study diamonds and I can see how they're very scientifically interesting as well as a beautiful gemstone. Okay, I think I'll give you that one. What about running or yoga? Yoga, I hate running. Ruby or sapphire? Interesting. Actually, I like both. Pinkish, ruby, reddish, sapphire? No, I like both, depending on, you know, how they set and you know what else they're set with. Because I think it's such a difference with the loose stones versus seeing them set into jewelry. Yeah, absolutely. And actually today, just here at the show, I saw some really, really cool earrings and also bracelets that were sapphires plus emeralds together. So the blue and the green together I really like. So I really like fancy colored diamonds, but also lots of different coloured gemstones because I think it's way more interesting than the colourless diamonds. Yes. I was saying earlier to another lady I was interviewing that I absolutely adore pink diamonds. Not only are they rare, they're just, I don't know, they speak to me. I love colour diamonds, so I can go on all day about them. So green diamonds I really, really like and I was checking out some really fancy, vivid green ones a little bit earlier, but they're a little bit above my budget. But pink and green together, very, very nice. So if you had a ring with either a green in the middle with two pinks on both sides, or pink in the middle with two greens. Yes, that would be what I would prefer in a ring one day. I think that would certainly be very Instagrammable. So, Karin, I'd like to continue to learn a bit more about your background and sort of how you ended up where you are today. Can you describe who you are, what you do and how you got here in your own words? So I'm a diamond research scientist. So what we do, me and my colleagues, is we study diamonds to understand where they form, how they form, why they form. One reason is to inform diamond exploration models. We want to know where to explore for them how to evaluate kimberlites. We want to know how to evaluate the deposit to understand whether it's going to be economic or not. So this is one of the reasons why we study diamonds. The other reason is that it tells us a lot about our planet because diamonds come from really deep inside our planet, like 200km up to like 600km down, maybe even deeper. So these are direct samples that we have of the deep Earth that we're not able to access. In any other way, but through diamond mining. So inclusions in diamonds, as well as the rocks in which diamonds occur, are direct samples of the deep Earth. Because diamonds form from so deep, we can't actually go there. We can't go to the areas in which natural diamonds form. The deepest drill hole is 20km. Diamonds form for like 200km plus. So we need diamond mining as a way to get access to the deep Earth. So that's what me and my colleagues do as we study diamonds, really, to understand our Earth, understand our planet better, using diamonds as key scientific samples to study our planet. So diamonds are actually incredibly interesting samples above and beyond that, people use them for jewelry and their beautiful gemstones. The inclusions in diamonds and their host rocks are very scientifically valuable. So that's sort of, in a nutshell, what I do every day. And so I do all of that at the GIA in New York. And the reason I decided to join GIA was that they have access to some really cool samples that we're not able to get in other places simply because diamonds are submitted for grading, for reports. And so while the diamonds are in our lab, we're able to analyze them and analyze the inclusions and do some research on these stones that come to us. So we get access to some really rare, interesting samples. So that's why I am at the GIA and why I really enjoy being there. I was very fortunate to go to Karen's talk earlier via the gia, the Inspiration Theatre at ijl, and it was absolutely fascinating to see just how far we do go into the Earth and finding little kind of. I guess they're sort of gifts from Mother Nature that have formed. I think that gemology and geology and jewelry, all the ologies, it's a combination of art and science and history. And we're just so lucky to be able to see these things from Mother Nature. No, absolutely. And that's why I really enjoy studying diamonds, is because they do have this fascination about them, is that they are beautiful, they're so durable. But then they also tell us so much about the Earth. Amazing. I can't believe you're a research scientist. It's amazing. Women in STEM always really excites me because I think the next generation, that's what they're looking for, these role models and people to inspire them to be able to get into an industry they perhaps wouldn't know about or, you know, just figuring out how to get there. But I'd like to know, who is it that you work with in terms of on A day to day basis, lab assistants or I mean who you see, who are your colleagues? So my colleagues day to day would be other research scientists. So these are people who also have advanced degrees in either geology or physics or engineering. So these would be my colleagues at the gia. So we have instrument scientists or engineers, we have physicists who work for us as well studying defects in diamonds. And so we have a wide range of people, people at the gia, not just scientists. And then so I deal with a whole range of people on a day to day basis. But just in terms of my research, we also collaborate a lot with research scientists from external organizations at many universities and at other research institutes. So I do get to collaborate with certainly with many other scientists around the world because our research field is actually very small. So diamond geology is an, isn't the largest field. And so actually very lucky that I get to collaborate with people all over the world and travel to conferences and catch up with these folks quite a bit. But just day to day I'd say I certainly also work a lot with graders in the lab. We also have research assistants, we have technicians in our lab and these people all have scientific background who then come work in a lab and then run the instrumentation to analyze the defects in these diamonds. Gosh, it's so awesome. And I think that if you are listening to this and you're a young woman or a young, I mean even if you're a career changer, it's certainly worth looking at the different paths that you get to be in Karin's position, whether that's geology or if you want to be a physicist or scientist and just, you know, being open to the opportunities that could come come your way by being a research scientist. Karen, we're going to go off for a little five minute break and afterwards I'm going to talk to you about the industry and if it's accessible and just to learn a bit more about your background. Sounds good. We'll see you after the break. WRS women's radio station, Voice of Women Worldwide, Sarah's universal soul show. What does your soul or spirituality mean to you? Welcome to future Classical woman awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. Welcome back. I'm Russ Cain. You're listening to in conversation with on women's radio station. I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy. And we're open to see what other programs we have on women's radio station, head to our website womensradiostation.com I'm Isabelle Manevy, an Executive Coach do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 079-8442, 2171. I'm listening. Mirae B Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offer diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client database. We take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. Would you like to know more? Please call 077-8684-8998 for further information. Mirabil Limited making the life of the business owner successful. Let Women's Radio advertise your brand or business. It's so affordable and effective. Reaching out to all women. Call us on 020-743-7706 66 now. Are you struggling with money? Turn to us as a national charity. Helping people struggling to make ends meet. Job loss, illness or bereavement can cause a real financial crisis. We give practical help to get people back on track. Whether you're thinking of having a baby, trying to get out of an unhappy relationship, or just unsure what benefits you may be entitled to, we can help. Visit turntous.org.uk I'm Angie. And I'm Patsy and we're open to share our own personal stories dealing with life events. Staying positive for the tough times. Share your stories too. What worked, what didn't? Join us each week for Open. We know you're going to love it. Women's Radio Station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs. To keep this important initiative to donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help. And joining me on today's show, as you know, before the break, I am with Karin Smit, a research scientist at the GIA in New York. Karin, in your opinion, does our industry welcome women at all levels from interns to CEOs, CFO, CTOs and leadership roles? And would you say it's an accessible industry for women? So tricky question. Certainly within our company, absolutely. It's been incredibly welcoming. There's never been any hint of unwelcomeness that I felt in our company and even our president is a woman. So certainly within the gia, it's definitely been incredibly welcoming to women, certainly at all levels. And many of our research scientists are women. We have a lot of women in our grading Lab we have a lot of women working as research associates, as technicians in our lab. In education, a lot of the instructors are women. So certainly the GIA is a very welcoming company for women and very inclusive environment. However, our larger industry, perhaps more on the geological side, perhaps in mining, certainly there is a concern that if you are an exploration or work in a mine, you know, there will obviously be a little bit of sexism always and you need to be a little bit more careful than you would in other areas. But I guess that is, I guess what you'd expect. Absolutely. I think it's just sometimes a bit of a practical matter as well. In terms of being in a mining region. I don't know if you've ever been down to the mining, but it's quite a not hostile environment. It's usually in a rural area in the middle of nowhere and sometimes it's just impractical. Well, also, you know, like a lot of, certainly at the management level there are many women in mining. But I mean now, you know, like actually at the mine, the people actually doing the mining, operating the, operating the machinery, typically those are men. And so yes, you need to be a little bit more careful. And so I guess I wouldn't necessarily want to be a mining geologist or an exploration geologist where you spend weeks at a time in the bush or in the field somewhere. But I guess that's why I really enjoy the lab. I really enjoy working in the lab because I feel like I make meaningful contributions and I'm surrounded by other people who welcome that. So it's never been, I've never had really an issue doing what I do. Having a great support network professionally and personally always really contributes to a really positive experience in the workplace, certainly. And I work with many great people. So that's been, I've been really fortunate in that regard. Not just a GIA where all my colleagues are great, but also in my larger scientific community for the most part, people have been, have been very welcoming. I mean there have been the one or two instances of harassment, but I think you'd expect that in any industry. And so certainly those have been at conferences where guys get a little bit drunk and they bit untoward, but you just sort of try to handle that as best as you can. But that would happen I think in, in most industries, unfortunately, where, you know, for one reason or the other guys would think that this is appropriate behavior. And really as you see on social media and in traditional media with the campaigns that are going on, there are so many ways of combating it. And I'll just go back to the fact that having good support network always helps when one is faced with such challenges, certainly. And I don't know whether it's maybe a generational thing as well, where it's perhaps our generation, the younger generation, I found less problems or I feel more comfortable with our generation because there is that awareness of equality. Whereas I think the older generation, I think they still struggle a little bit to catch on that times have changed and women no longer are secretaries or just, you know, housewives. Certainly there's nothing wrong with that if that's your choice. But if you do choose to be in a profession you would like to be taken seriously. Absolutely. Hear, hear. And I think that's a really fine note for me to ask you actually how you got here, because we've mentioned in the past, well, just before the break, about your position today and what you do on a day to day basis, but can you just go through your studies and how you ended up where you are today? Sure. So I've never really had a plan. I think things have just sort of happened and I've been really lucky to end up where I am today. And so I did my undergrad just in geology in South Africa. And to be honest, I wasn't such a huge fan of rocks at the end of all of that. And I sort of thought that I would maybe just quit geology or do something else. I wasn't really sure about what I wanted to do in my life. And I guess also the exposure that I had during my undergrad, we didn't study diamonds or gemstones really. And I guess the outlook that I had after my undergrad was that my career options are exploration or mining, I think, because in South Africa that's certainly the norm. And so coming out of my undergrad, I thought that that is, if I wanted to continue with geology, that is what I had to do. And so if I didn't enjoy that, then there's no place for me in geology. And so then I didn't really realize that research was an option. And so then I ended up doing a master's. And the master's project was on a suite of diamonds from Australia. And the people that I did my master's with already had the samples and they were just looking for someone to do the research. And so I was really lucky that I came along at the right time while they were looking for someone to do this project with them. So I was like, wow, yeah, this sounds really interesting. I think I'm in. And there was no looking back. And would you say the rest is history, as they say? Yeah, pretty much. So I did that, my master's project, and I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the lab work because that project was very specific, it was very analytically heavy. So I spent a lot of time doing challenging analyses in the lab. But I actually really enjoyed that because it isn't something that is widely done. And so I really enjoyed the challenge, actually. And then I really, because I really enjoyed that, I asked my supervisors where they would recommend that I go for a PhD. And so they recommended one or two universities to me and introduced me to those people at conferences. And then ultimately I went to Canada to do a PhD and that was four years ago or so. What's your PhD in? In diamond geology. So, but not just on the diamonds, but also the host rocks that these diamonds occur in because we really wanted to try understand the conditions for diamond formation. And so to do that you also need to study the environment in which they grow, not just the diamonds themselves. So I studied a range of rocks that are associated with these diamonds and I studied a particular locality in eastern Canada called the Victor Mine and associated deposits just around there. So I studied the rocks and also some diamonds from there as well, because we just wanted to understand the formation conditions of these diamonds. And so that was a four year PhD in Alberta in Canada. And then once again, coming out of my PhD, I didn't really know what I was going to do. I didn't really have a solid plan and ultimately I thought I would just, you know, go back to South Africa and try to find a job somewhere. I didn't really have a good plan or strategy about what I wanted to do, but I guess I did know that I wanted to stay in research somehow. And then around that time the GAA started their first postdoctoral program. So this is just a research fellowship available for postdoctoral research. And so I found out about that applied to that and. And you got it. And here we are. It's absolutely extraordinary. Yeah, so I've never really planned that far ahead and sort of just taking the opportunities as they come up. Corinne, I'd love to know, and perhaps you can tell our listeners about any research samples that you're working on at the moment or anything that you've published recently. So I. What I enjoy the most, I guess, is analyzing diamonds to find out how old they are. And so how we do that is we actually break the diamonds open, get the inclusions out so that we can dissolve them and analyze their elements in the name of science, Kolichi, in the name of science, with a hammer. So obviously you can understand that we're not going to break the biggest and best diamonds and smash those ones up. What we want to do is we want to find a suite of diamonds from the same place because we need maybe 8 to 10 diamonds, all from the same locality and all with nice big inclusions in them. So these aren't the ones that at the moment are highly valued by the trade, I guess, because a lot of people prefer to have flawless gemstones. Something that I don't understand personally, because I love inclusions. I also prefer rough diamonds that still have the original characteristics on them that haven't all been polished away. I really enjoy seeing inclusions in diamonds, but I digress. So we break open the diamonds to get the inclusions out, obviously with care. We have a special technique to do that because sometimes there's multiple inclusions in the stone and we want to get each one of those out individually and know which one's which. So we do it very carefully under the microscope in the lab and then we analyze them for certain elements and hopefully we get an age out of it. And so by doing this. So me and a number of my colleagues have done diamond dating studies and through this we, we found that diamonds are anywhere from 3.5 billion years old to 90 million years old. So through the whole range of Earth's history. So the earth is 4.56 billion years old and the oldest diamonds are 3.5. And then just for reference, the dinosaurs went extinct like 65 million years ago. So, you know, prior to even the dinosaurs, that's when diamonds were forming. So I think this is why I enjoy studying diamonds. Because not only are these diamonds that contain this unique signature really beautiful gemstones because they're really yellow, they have vivid yellow colors to them. But from the sulfur? Not actually. No, no, it's actually from nitrogen. Wow. You see, it's an endlessly fascinating world. Keep going. Sorry. So these diamonds from West Africa, they are yellow because they contain nitrogen in their diamond lattice. And the nitrogen in these diamonds are. Sorry to cut you off again. What is a diamond lattice? For myself and for the listeners. Yeah, right, sorry. I keep using these terms that I forget. I need to probably explain them a little bit better. So just the diamond structure. So diamond is made up of carbon atoms and so pure diamond just contains carbon. But nitrogen is incredibly compatible. It likes to go into the diamond structure both in lab grown diamonds, but also in natural diamonds. So most diamonds contain some amount of Nitrogen. Karen, I want to know a little bit more about, I guess, who you are and what you do. Your favorite gemstones. Do you like cut or polished or rough? What's your. I mean, we've touched on it briefly, but do you want to say a little bit more about that Rough? Because I am a geologist, I guess so. I way prefer rough diamonds than I do cut diamonds simply because I think that rough diamonds look a little bit more unique. And then once you cut and facet them and polish them and polish all their imperfections away, then they all look the same. A little bit more boring. Dare I use the phrase carbon copy? Ha ha. Gem joke. I knew you'd appreciate that. I've been waiting. I've been saving that one. What a nerd. We find each other nerds, you see. Karen, tell me from a personal and professional perspective, what is your source of inspiration and who is your source of inspiration? My inspiration, I guess, is what keeps me going, is I always want to challenge myself. I guess I never want to be bored and just keep doing the same thing day in, day out. And so I guess that's why I enjoy research, because I want to contribute something new. How can we change our understanding diamond formation? What don't we know yet? And not just doing research projects just for the sake of it, but rather trying to, you know, figure out what we don't know yet and then going after that. And I really enjoy doing challenging analyses because I feel like, well, you know, not everyone can do it. So you feel a little bit more proud of yourself at the end of it being like, okay, cool, you know, I got those diamond ages. So that, yeah, I enjoy challenging myself and I guess that's sort of my inspiration. Thank you so much, Karen. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure having you. Thank you so much for having me. You've been listening to hidden Gems with Maya on women's radio station. If you want to listen again or catch up on our previous programs, you can head to presenters page on womensradiostation.com or women's radio STN on Twitter and Instagram. You can also contact me directly on thecarrotsoup.com carrot C A R A T. Send me a message on Instagram, comment whatever you need to do. I'm very glad to talk to people and connect if you're excited about gemstones as we are. Such a pleasure. Thank you for listening. WRS women's radio station, Voice of women Worldwide. This is Amy Liu, Voice of China at women's radio Station. Welcome to future Classical Woman Awards with me, Stefania Passamoto on Women's Radio Station. After a long day, I like to sit in my bath with a glass of wine and listen to Women's Radio. I'm Ross. Kate. You're listening to in conversation with on Women's Radio Station. To see what other programs we have on Women's Radio Station, head to our website womensradiostation.com are you looking to enhance your career? Are you looking to grow your business? Well then why not? Visit wearthecity.com Weatherthecity.com is a website for working women. It's full of inspirational stories of women that have been there, seen it and done it. We also feature events, women's networks and other articles that may help you to progress both in terms of your connections and business ideas. Visit wearethecity.com and take your business or career to the next level. Mirae B Ltd. We are a virtual PA consultancy. We provide remote administrative services. Our offering is diverse. We manage your calendar, we update your client database. We take care of your property in France and in London. We also offer bookkeeping and translation services. Would you like to know more? Please call 077-8684-8998 for further information. Mirae B Limited making the life of the business owner successful Would you like to host your own radio show? Would you love to be doing what I'm doing right now and be a radio present on Women's Radio Station? If you're passionate on your subject or topic, we'd like to hear from you, wherever you are in the world about what's happening in your country, town or city. It's your station, your voice to women of the world. So contact us. Send an email to involvedmensradiostation.com. I'm Isabelle Manavy, an executive coach. Do you want to change a negative into a positive? We can do this by coaching you to rewire your brain using simple visualization techniques. In 20 years of practice, I've seen this transform lives. For more information, look on Women's Radio website. Call me on 079-84422. I'm listening. Women's Radio Station is a not for profit, community interest company. Supporting women is our passion. We're currently welcoming donations to help towards our running costs to keep this important initiative alive. To donate, simply head to our website. Every little will help.