Kitchen Sink Spirituality – Daisy Waugh

This is women's radio station with Avril Price with her kitchen sink spirituality, the voice of holistic London. And I'm really excited today because I have the very wonderful Daisy Waugh. Hi Daisy. Hello there. Thanks ever so much for joining us today. And I'm sure that our listeners are going to be really intrigued to hear all about you. And we're going to be talking novels, tarot and tarot sleuths. So to start us off, Daisy, tell us a little bit about yourself. What do you do? Well, primarily I write novels. I read tarot cards and I write novels. But mostly I've written a lot of novels for years and then I decided to marry the two and I now currently writing novels about a tarot reading detective. So that's pretty much what I do actually. Yeah. Among other things. Amongst other things. Dare we ask you what these other things might be? Well, only some of them. Other things are I've got quite a big family who take up quite a lot of my time. I've just started doing, teaching people doing master classes in how to write novels. Your microphone just decide to do its own thing. Okay. The boys have been in. The boys were in yesterday. They bashed it up. Blame it on the boys. Yeah. You were saying that you're teaching people how to write. I've actually seen the advertised and it's over in the Barnes area. Yeah, that's quite good fun. And what is. Because I've been writing since ever and that's, that's what I do really. But it's quite. Lately I've been mixing it up a bit more and it's. And it's kind of. It's quite good fun actually. Just, you know, not, not being so. Because writing can be quite lonely. You sit alone in a room or broadcast, no reception and isolating. It's isolating. Yeah. So it's fun to mix it up actually. It's quite fun. And with the teaching people how to write fiction, you know, you could just. I could bang on for hours, you know, and don't use that word. And do do this and don't do that. I think that's pretentious. So perhaps, you know, I need to edit a bit of that. But it's good fun. Do you find that there's a big calling for people to learn how to write fiction? There is quite a bit. I mean, I think that it's one of the things that people think they want to do until the moment comes when they actually might even be going to do it. And I think a Lot of people say, oh, I've always wanted to write, but I haven't got time, or whatever, whatever with all these things, you know, if you really want to do something enough, you find the time, you do it. But it's funny because at the same time, and this has always been a source of real frustration in a kind of petty way that if you are, you might find this as well. Working from home. If you work from home, but certainly if you're sitting writing novels, nobody kind of realizes that. That actually takes a hell of a lot of time, you know, so it's not, oh, so I'm going to drop in for a cup of tea and drop in. Don't be so unfriendly because you can't do this. And there's a constant battle, I find, with sort of, you know, not hurting people's feelings because they think you're only sitting at home writing a book and you can sort of somehow do that between, I don't know, bicycling to the shop and brushing your. I don't know what. They don't seem to realize. It actually takes a monumental. And I, Even my editors kind of think that's just something you squeeze in between. That was a big whine, wasn't it? No, no, I completely empathize, actually, because sadly, I can't claim to be a novelist, but my work does mean that I do quite a lot of writing. And it's like, because you're working from home, everybody thinks that you're actually doing nothing and that you're completely available all of the time. So you've got to be really quite tough. Yeah. To get. Meet your deadlines, to get your work together and so on and so forth. And getting that balance right can be quite difficult, actually. I've got so now because the. I've now actually just booked to go away, which I've always done, apart from last year. I didn't, because I was away for the whole year to go away from everyone, family, everything and anything, and sit in a room and write and. And for five days I'm going. And it is astonishing how much more you can get done if you're just alone, having inconvenienced everybody because you're just not available to anyone. It's amazing how much more you can get done. Have you seen that film called. There's a Film where a man takes a pill that makes him very, very clever and he writes a novel in 10 days. It's like, really? That sounds like that's a great film. It's a very good film with a very Bradley Cooper. So do you have a favourite place to go and write then? I do at the moment. It varies, actually, but I spent last year living in Rome and, you know, it's. I love it there. I love it there. The thing with these writing retreats, which I've done for years now, is they can be again, I mean, intensely lonely. It means you get a hell of a lot done. But by the end of five days you really do feel pretty mad. And it's a bit. It's quite intense and unhappy. Making in Rome. I now have a few friends, so it's lovely, you know, you go and not enough. You know, just occasionally you go and have a drink with somebody in the evening and it just keeps you. Oh, that's the word. Actually, you've comforted me enormously because sometimes if I've spent a whole day writing, I feel completely loopy. I've got really into the epicentre of whatever it is I'm doing and, you know, I'm a gibbering wreck. Yeah, yeah. So I want to ask you, do you prefer to be called a writer or an author? Is there a difference? I don't know. I mean, I. An author. I feel like I'm a writer. An author. I think a writer is. I prefer writer, since you ask. Yeah. Author sounds more like something you put on a cv. A writer sounds more like a whole kind of approach to life. But I've never really thought of it before, so. Because I want to ask you if that's okay, you come from a writer's heritage? I do. You do? Many authors in my family. Many authors in your family. And if I'm correct, your father was Oberon War. That's right, Yep. And if I also remember rightly, he was very interested in politics of the time and he had quite strong opinions, I believe. Yeah, I think he probably did. Yeah. Everyone's got one has that kind of writers and that antecedents. Has that shaped you in some way? Well, but it's like. I mean, all of us is shaped by what came before. I don't think anyone could claim any different, but I think it's also quite hard as the product of something to separate who you are with what you came from. Any of us. So, of course it shaped me in the same way that your parents shaped you and your. I mean, we're all shaped by our environment, so. Yes, adamantly. Of course. Absolutely. Yeah. 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So you have this wonderful book that was published recently called the prime of Muzz Dolly Green and it's a Tarot detective book. So before we start to talk about the book, can you tell us a little bit about your journey into Tarot? Because as far as I'm aware, the spiritual world would not have been an automatic go to place for you. Not at all. I mean, it's Funny. I mean, I was raised as a Catholic and, well, my mother is Anglican, my father was Catholic, but he was. He was quite a sinful old man. But, you know, it was very much part of the conversation. And so it wasn't that, you know, it was a completely unspiritual background. But I think there were kind of orthodoxies. There was a lack of. I mean, well, I don't think anyone would have embraced the idea of tarot. In fact, I know they wouldn't. They would have been pretty appalled by it. A lot of Catholics are very anti the tarot anyway, so that's what I came from. And actually I did have quite a. Quite an intensely religious phase in my sort of teenage years as I was pretty neurotic and intense teenager. So that happened. And then I got on with being very ambitious, really. And I would have been the first in line to kind of laugh and sneer about the tarot. And yet, you know, was also quite superstitious and quite spiritual. So I suppose it was inevitable eventually that having kind of rejected Catholicism fairly quickly, clearly because of all sorts of reasons to do with misogyny and things being too obvious. I mean, not too obvious, but too cut and dried anyway. And I love the way the tarot doesn't give. Doesn't. Doesn't lay down the law ever. So anyway, I found it by. Because I was doing a lot of journalism. And again, almost everything starts from. I was lonely sitting at my desk. I was lonely sitting at my desk thinking, it's all broadcast, no reception. I want to go out and, you know, learn something new. And I thought it would be funny. I literally thought it would be funny. And there was a day's course thought I could use a character, could use the tarot. And it would be quite amusing to be able to have a little bit of a sense of the language so that she could use it. I didn't have really an idea of the character who would use it, but I just thought it would be a funny thing to have to write about at some point. And I went for this day's course and it just blew me away. It was kind of completely out of my comfort zone on every. Every level. And it was sort of above that shop in Covent Garden. I don't know if it's still there. Mysteries, mysteries. It's moved now, actually. It's down Duff Neil's yard somewhere. Oh, is it? Oh, just around here also, still. Yeah. It's not a million miles away. No, the apple doesn't fall from the tree. No, Unless you just go with the tarot. So. And then from there I got obsessed with it and I found teachers all around the place to teach me. And I read about it endlessly and started, you know, bullying my friends to let them let me read their cards. And then I discovered the College of Psychic Studies. That was in South Kensington and that was wonderful, actually. And I did quite a lot of courses there. And then I decided to write these books about it. I just thought, you know, I'm a writer and here's this thing that is just so ripe, it's such a lovely subject. So I thought I decided to marry the two wrote about this. Very glad you did as well. I just wanted to ask you though, Daisy, do you feel that, you know, taking a tarot course and the other courses that you mentioned, do you think that reading Tarot was something that you were taught or do you think that the teaching actually brought out something that was already inherent within you? I think the latter, I think. I think I was obviously. I mean, I think not. Maybe not everybody who does a day's course would be so enamored of it. I mean, I really became obsessed with it and fell in love with it. And it in many ways massively changed the way I see the world and how I operate in small ways and in big ways. And it was a kind of gateway to a whole lot of rejigging. How I looked on the universe. And I've now forgotten what the original question is, but. So maybe I was. Yeah, I think. But I also think actually novelists, probably people who are creative anyway, are more inclined, you know, without wishing to be too boastful, I think they're probably a bit more open minded to kind of, you know, alternative ideas. So maybe there was that. Anyway, plus. Yeah, yeah, I'm glad you said that because I do think that tarot finds you. You don't really find Tarot. And I think that it's a certain kind of person that's required to successfully read the tarot cards. Because it's like you're reading a narrative, you're telling a story, so you need to be quite visual and I think. And imaginative and creative. I think you've got to be really good at stringing symbols together. And that's coupled with people who really live their life who know what it's like to be on the coal face. Yeah. And in some way or emotional. Coal face. I think probably, yes, I think, yes, I think. Because I know that sometimes you've said that to empathize too much isn't I mean, it's actually very draining if you empathize too much when you're reading people's cards. I find it quite hard not to. And I think, I mean, of course it's so hard to know what it's. I mean, I get people coming back, so I can't be that bad at it. But, you know, it's very hard to know how it. Sometimes I wonder if, you know, actually you don't want to be empathized with too much. You just want some sort of solid guidelines. But I find it very hard, you see the images. It's very hard not to get. It's very involving. I think it's because I think you have to Sale, sale, sale. At Queenstyle furniture, up to 50% off all our furniture styles. 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When I was teaching people to create characters in my creative writing thing because, as you know, they're incredibly evocative, aren't they, those cards? Or I use the rider wake cards and they don't insist on anything. I mean, the images are kind of infinitely interpretable. So they're quite good for encouraging people to open their minds and look at things in a less binary way. Does that make sense? I don't think I used the word binary correctly there, but a less literal. A less literal way. Multi dimensional. Thank you. Yes. Actually, I find them really useful for my writing because probably like yourself, I get this kind of like tsunami of ideas and I want to say something, but I never know quite where to start. And sometimes the card will give me that starting point. And again, I'm just completely blown away by their versatility. I just, you know, I think as a device for accessing non local consciousness, I think they're just amazing. Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh, yes. Just kind of opening. You're getting into that multi dimensional thing that you were talking about. So you really do become aware that we're not this two dimensional being that we first thought of, that we're much more expansive than that and can expand further. Hopefully not by the waistline. Yeah, my students got very excited by it, actually. They were very. That exercise particularly, they really liked it because it sort of. It allowed them to see that they didn't. Which I think is the beauty of the cards. They didn't only know what they thought they knew. They knew more than they realized they knew that. Do you know that? Do you know that's a really good point you've made, Daisy, because I think that the cards are like keys to your own inner wisdom and you don't realize just what you do know or how wise you are. Yeah. And I think not only that, but the cards kind of help you facilitate that wisdom. Yes. They help you express it and externalize it. And very often we're brought up in environments that don't encourage that. So, you know, I. I feel that, you know, the way forward with tarot is kind of making it more accessible to everybody. But on A very creative level. And it's very possible that you may have started off that whole trend because let's turn to your book now. It's the prime of Mus, Dolly Green. Now, you've written this under a pseudonym, Evie Hart. Is there a particular reason for this? Well, I've been doing an awful lot of journalism, an awful lot of journalism before that. And actually I'd certainly kind of burned out a bit. I was feeling very overexposed and it was kind of very. It was very. It was real first person journalism. Stupid pictures of me looking tarty in the newspapers and I just. I just wanted a clean page and literally. And actually the whole thing of sort of coming out, coming out as a Tarot reader was, you know, so foreign to the kind of journalism that I'd been doing and the kind of Persona that I'd been professionally selling that it was quite nice just to have a. You know, it's just kind of liberating. That must have been a really bold step actually, to go from like hardened hack to Tarot reader. Did you get much flack for it? I got a bit, but I mean, I did get a little bit and certainly, you know, people thought I was insane and they didn't believe me. They thought I was joking, actually. But, you know, partly it was a reaction to that rather brittle, glib world that I think I was that kind of launched me into sort of threw me into the Tarot's arms anyway, so I'm quite confrontational person. I don't. I mean, in a way that's, you know, just bring it on. I'm quite. I don't like being bullied. Thank goodness for that. Long may it be so. So I've got to say, so looking at the COVID here, I've got to say I recognize this place. Is this Barnes? Yes, Barnes Pond. Barnes Pond. I love that part of the world. It's lovely. So is, is the, is the, is the novel set in that part of the world? Yes. Set, yeah, it's set there. There's lots of stuff that goes on by the riverbank. And by that I mean there are various pubs that readers who live down there definitely recognize. And I did. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing, but I recognize. Yeah, it should be. It's supposed to be. It's a bit of fun. Now. The bookshop was in. The bookshop in Barnes was kind of very supportive and stuff. Almost everyone was. Except funnily enough, the one place which was the Barnes Arts Centre. Or something. But literally that image is taken from its window and it's an art center. And it was the only place that wouldn't put a poster up on the wall. And. Well, the news agent did and the. Everyone else. But. Because in actual fact, I think this is what's quite remarkable about this book is it's almost like a genre within a genre because, you know, you go down to your bookstore and there's many, many books on Tarot. But this is, I think, one of its first of a kind, which is an actual Tarot novel that speaks of Tarot right from beginning to end. And another thing that draws my attention is the heroine of the story is Dolly Green. Now, you've called her Miss, which is very modern. Was there a reason behind that? Because I find Ms. And Mrs. Really irritating. And, you know, she was a muzz, actually. I think finally, I'm astonished how long it's taken for people. I think finally forms are beginning to change and you're not obliged to fill in one or the other. But it's irritated me for years. Why? Whose business is it? What, your attachment or non attachment to a man. Astonishing. Anyway. So very archaic, isn't it? It's ridiculous. Yeah. So we're starting to kind of, you know, always, again, I'm quite confrontational to irritate a little bit. And obviously it's the prime Miss, Jean Brody. So it's like trying to. Yes, that was a good movie. I didn't see that. I read the book. It's very funny, the book, but it's a bit more. I mean, that's kind of light detective show. Well, I've got to say, it's a good read. Oh, thank you. It is indeed. And so Dolly Green, is she based on anybody? Bit me. Yeah, A little bit me. Yeah. But actually also my sister, funnily enough. But I did this thing and it was quite interesting actually, because in a way, the one thing about her, she's not particularly ambitious. And I think it's been my Achilles heel since ever. I just am. And I keep trying not to be, but it just seems to keep bouncing back. But she's not. And funnily enough, there are two things I did with her consciously. One was to make her not ambitious. And it was quite funny. While it was doing the rounds, looking for a publisher, a lot of people said, why isn't she, you know, why doesn't she. Why isn't she going out there and getting it? And actually it was a feminist point that, you know, she didn't have to. She was just kind of muddling through, just, just living her life. And finally I, you know, that, that, that. And actually since it's come out, it's amazing how many people said how much they like and how much they wish she could be, you know, she was extremely. She's exactly someone who they'd like to have as a friend. But this kind of idea that, you know, in order to be a likable hero you have to be out there barging and charging is a, is a nonsense. I think the other thing I did with her, very consciously in fact, in the sequel that comes out in May, I have, I have, I have in fact described her physically but in that I never describe her physically. So she's any woman and every woman, she's just someone who feels kind of attractive but never quite attractive enough kind of, you know that, that sort of. Which I think is. Every woman has little things of feeling insecure and actually it's a weight, you know, that, you know, lack of confidence about your appearance. And I wanted her to be all of us, no matter where. On the kind of busy scale of, you know, who counts what out of 10? Just that every, I would say almost every woman feels kind of insecure and in some ways but kind of quite secure in ways that they don't shout about so much. And actually I think women anyway, so that, that, that was a. Quite a. That was what I did. She's certainly quite a personality despite the fact that you say that she's quite laid back. I personally didn't get that. I thought that she was very capable. She's fiery but she's not ambitious. She's not really status. This is true. Women's radio station will give a voice to your brand. 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You'll be able to contact an IBS medical expert and you will help others like you to live well with IBS. To find out more, please visit theibsnetwork.org or call us on 011-427-23253. Okay. This is women's radio station. This is Avril Price. You're listening to Kitchen Sink Spirituality. It's the voice of elistic London. So, Dolly Green. What I loved about her is that she's a single parent raising a child on her own. And to all intents and purposes, she is earning her cash from her skills as a tarot reader. And I think what you've done quite nicely is that you've woven in this tarot sleuth bit, which I think in some ways that's what tarot readers do. We're problem solvers. But you've taken this into a much wider field and she does this very successfully. She, you know, she, she, you know, she gets to the bottom of the situation, which I'm not going to go into because you've got to read the book. But did you set out to make her like a single parent? Do you think that there's a message in that? Well, it's not a message because I, but it was just that, that was, it was, it was less messy. You know, she's just this woman who's muddling through her life. That, that, that was the point of it, who's kind of reasonably comfortable in her skin. But it's not a particularly easy life. And actually her daughter is quite old now and there's. I hope there's a, you know, there's a thing of just this mother daughter thing where they're just all kind of. The daughter can't quite get a job that pays enough rent, so they're all squished into the same house. So there's just a sense of, I hope, of just kind of friendship and camaraderie and away from that lasting should, should, shouldness that goes on. Everywhere you look, you're being told you should be doing something. They're just, they're just muddling through. And I, that that was what I was trying to get a warmth about that. And then. And the tarot sleuth detective thing is, it's meant to be fun. You know, it's fun that the tarot doesn't just have to be spooky. It's. It can be good fun. It can be extremely good fun. And what I like about your positioning with Dolly Green is it sits quite well historically with spiritualism per se, because part of the difficulties that women had in back in the day was that they were able to earn their money at a time when women didn't earn their own money, but from, shall we say, the paranormal, as it were. Although, having said that, there's nothing paranormal about Dolly Green. She's a wonderful character and I think that you will enjoy the book. And so it's the prime of Miss Dolly Green, written by EV Hart, AKA Daisy War. And you've got a sequel coming out, apparently. Sequel's coming out in early May. Yeah. And what is the title of that book? That one's called the Case of the Fool. The Case of the Fool. Oh, gosh, I can't wait. And if people need to find you, where can they find you? Daisy? I'm on Facebook. Daisy War, author. I'm on Twitter and I've got a website, actually, daisywar.com so I'm quite findable, actually. Yay. If you know how to spell my surname. W, A, U, G, H. Daisy, thanks ever so much for coming in. It's been wonderful chatting. I wish we had longer. You really unpack this whole situation, this topic of feminism and the new age industry. Lovely. Thank you very much. Thank you.