Love Lessons – Emma Heptonstall, The Author Of How To Be A Lady Who Leaves –

Hello, I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons. Today we're here in Covent Garden on women's radio station. I'm so pleased to have you joining me again. Probably this is the show where we talk about everything from dating relationships to breakups and divorce to all the way starting over again as a confident single. Got a really special episode today of about divorcing with dignity. And I've got the wonderful divorce alchemist here, Emma Hechtenstall. And we're really going to be getting to grips with how to feel empowered as a woman, being the lady that leaves and moving forward, divorcing with dignity. So welcome, Emma. Hi, Sarah, Nice to be here. Thank you for having me on the show. It's so exciting to be here because I know that there are so many burning questions and I've got people in close proximity to me, but particularly that will be tuning in today, ready to listen to all the things that you have to say about, I guess, feeling empowered and, you know, taking those courageous steps in a calm way and leaving a marriage or a relationship that is no longer serving you. So I'd love to know a little bit more about you and I'm sure the listeners would too. Can you tell us a bit about what it is that you do and how you help people in this part of their. Drawing a line, I guess, of a relationship. So I'm a recovering lawyer. I worked in the legal profession for 13 years, specifically with couples negotiating their child contact arrangements. And I left that to become a family mediator because I saw, having trained as a coach, that there was a different way that couples could negotiate that difficult transition from being a couple to being co parents. Because it's so, so difficult even when it's amicable and even when you get along with that person. And from that I realised that particularly women are quite disenfranchised financially. And so in the mediation process they'll come along and they will say, I'm not really quite sure how much my husband earns. We've never discussed it. I don't know what the mortgage is, I don't know what I'm entitled to. And so when I was thinking about developing my coaching business, I thought, there's something here that I need to deal with because there are so many women out there that are staying stuck because they're too frightened to make those first steps. So you're looking after ladies. Is it just women that you look after? I coach men as well, but I don't market to them my website as You've seen Sarah is very girly, but if a man reaches out to me, I will work with them too because it's all the same in the end. Yes, absolutely. And so when you guess realised what you would like to do, you found your niche. Did you figure there were a lot of people out there doing what you're doing in this empathetic way from I guess, your legal expertise as well? Did you find there was really a need and a gap in the market for somebody like you to help women certainly in the uk? Yes. Oh, right. Divorce coaching when I started five years ago wasn't really a thing in the uk. There were one or two divorce coaches at that stage. It's quite big in the usa. The uniqueness of myself is that I haven't been divorced, I'm not married and I have that legal as well as coaching background. So I'm never bringing my own personal experience to the table. What I'm bringing is my professional experience of working with lots of people through the divorce process. That's really interesting that you should mention your personal story and what your circumstances and how it is relative or not to the process of, of what you do with helping people. Do you find that a lot of people out there who are helping, you know, soon to become solo singles go through the divorce process? Do you find that they are divorced themselves and they found the niche through trying to find it themselves? Absolutely. Most people who are divorced coaches have been divorced themselves and that's been their calling from their own experience, which I don't knock. My experience is very, very different because I'm coming from that legal perspective of having seen what really happens not just in one case, but in lots of different cases. Yeah, I guess what's coming up for me as you're explaining that is that I'm trying to get myself in, I guess those professionals shoes and thinking would I be helping people through a position of still being in pain myself and empathetically being drawn to them, or actually with someone like you who's come from a neutral perspective, would it be far better? But I guess one never knows unless they try the different services out there. So tell me a little bit about the process of working with you. What kind of things do you do to help people, I guess, come to through the decision making process to divorce? And then again, I guess there's a cycle of them going through the divorce itself and then the aftercare of after divorce. So talk to me about that. That's right, Sarah. So there's two distinct parts, some Women will come to me when they're already in the process. Others will come to me when they're just not sure whether they should le leave or not. And in fact, the first part of my book, how to Be a Lady who Leaves, is all about making a smart decision. Because if the issue is within ourselves rather than within the marriage, we obviously take ourselves with us when we leave. So we're just going to find ourselves in a different home potentially, or the same home, but without our spouse, with all the same issues that were there before. So we have to be certain within ourselves that the marriage is the issue. Right, okay. And that's interesting because I know you've got a guide which is A Smart Woman's Guide to Divorce and you've also got the book how to Be a Lady that Leaves. And I wondered which one is best to utilise first if I was, let's say, in the position of kind of toying with divorce as a prospect of moving on myself. Because you've got those two tools, you've got your book and the workbook, I guess. Yes. What would you use first? The workbook, certainly as an initial overview, because lots of women are very sort of fearful and scared and often picking up a book like that can be a bit nerve wracking and a bit too committed, you know, even within themselves. Whereas downloading a free guide, the Smart Woman's Divorce Guide, which gets delivered over a period of seven days into their inbox, gives them that opportunity to just look at it gently without putting pressure on themselves. And if it's not for them, that's absolutely fine. And then if it is, picking up the book and learning more is probably the way to go. I actually think that what you're saying is a really great way to look at it and to go through the process. Because putting myself, I guess, in the women that are potentially listening in their position, if it's relative to them, is that it could be quite overwhelming to look at it in a bird's eye view. Everything that you have to deal with and go through and separate from, I guess receiving it in bite sized chunks is easily digestible as an emotional process as well as a practical process. So talk to me about the steps that they may see in the Smart Woman's Guide to Divorce. Okay, So I use the word divorce as a way to help them move through it. So it's about that decision making process first and foremost. Are you ready? Are you doing the divorce for the right reasons or is there something else going on with you? Do you need to be taking a step back, trying relationship counseling if you haven't already, going to get your own personal therapy, if that's what you need. And then it's about being ready to invest in yourself and step up, both financially and in terms of time, because divorce is not cheap. It will eat away at your finances and your time, particularly. And if you're a parent and you've got lots of young children, the things that you need to do to get prepared for divorce take time. Then we look at your values and what's important to you, because there's what you're entitled to in the law, and then there's what you want and need for you, and they may be the same thing and they might not be right. Then we look about getting organised, because the more prepared you are and the organised up front, the easier it will be. And then we look at revisiting those values based on having done some research. We look at communication, telling somebody, could be your spouse, could be a solicitor, could be a friend, or even discussing it internally with yourself. That communication about wanting to divorce and then an exit strategy. I think that that sounds absolutely incredible, given the circumstances, that there's help such as that out there. And there's only one or two people that I've certainly come across who do what it is that you do to help people. Because, you know, you've labeled it the Smart Woman's Divorce Guide or Guide to Divorce. But actually it's not just smart, it's very sensible because you often emotionally think that this isn't serving me and something doesn't feel quite right. But then you want to perhaps separate from that person and draw a line. But all of the things that you, you know, perhaps wouldn't think of that come after, not just financially, but exit strategy and all that, and drawing line everything, not just, you know, a love that has perhaps been lost or how to manage the kids. It's the finances, it's the assets, it's the separation of families. I guess there's a lot to consider and I think having a good read of something that is practical from an expert's perspective, such as yourself, is a really sensible and viable move before you take those steps. And you come from an empathetic, in my perspective, place of helping people, which is really kind because you kind and, you know, obviously helpful. You see a lot of divorce lawyers out there giving, you know, similar advice, but it doesn't necessarily come from this space of, you know, empathy and with a big heart. And I feel like I get that from your website and the way you, you help people. I wondered as well about your workbook. Is it also applicable if you're not married and you've been in a long term relationship and you've got so many ties, financial and emotional to separate? Can someone who's not been married use your guide? Do you think they can use some of. Yes, because the principles generally are similar, but the law is not the same. So the law applicable to cohabitation is different to divorce, but the same personal issues that you have, you still need to be organized, you still need to look at your values, you still need to be able to communicate and you still need an exit strategy. All of that's still there. Yeah, really interesting. And so can you just give us a quick fire round just before we head over and have a break about the things to consider about the cycle of divorce, the process. Okay. The first thing is always have a plan. If you're going to leave your man, take time. The first thing you should do is absolutely nothing. Sit with it before you do anything. Amazing. Thank you so much. So I am Sarah Louise Ryan. We're here on Love Lessons with Emma Heptonstall, the divorce alchemist. And after the break we're really going to be getting to grips with the process of going through a divorce and how to get to grips for being the lady that leaves and then I guess following through with that in a confident and calm manner. This is a show where we talk about everything from dating relationships to building confidence and communicating all the way to breakups and divorce. And we'll be right back after the break with Emma Hepton Stahl talking all things breakups and divorce. We'll be right back. Welcome to women's radio station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to future classic women awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on women's radio station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is listening. 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We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org you're listening to Women's Radio Station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio Station's creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter womensradio Station, that's Women's Radio STN or Facebook Women's Radio Station to keep up to date with all our exciting programmes. Hello, welcome back to Love Lessons on Women's Radio Station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan hosting today and I have got a wonderful guest, Emma Heptonstall, the divorce alchemist. Today we're talking all things about confidently and calmly drawing a line under a relationship that's no longer serving you, but more specifically marriage. So welcome back, Emma. Hi, Sarah. So I want to really delve into the whole concept of being the lady that leaves and first and foremost ask you the question of what holds people back from leaving a marriage that's no longer serving them. Well, firstly, I want to say that a lot of what I do doesn't apply to ladies who are in abusive relationships. And by abusive relationships, I mean relationships that are more than the ordinary angst that people go through. When a relationship ends, when people are sad and angry and upset. So there's that aspect of people are too scared to leave. But for those women that are not in that situation, one of the biggest reasons is stigma still in the 21st century about being a lady that wants to break up her family and the damage it will do to her children. So that is a big reason why ladies don't leave is because they think that they'll be judged and they think that their children will be damaged. So what about, say, marriages where those couples have got kids that have fled the nest? What about those couples? So the media has dubbed those couples the Silver Splitters. And at this sort of time in 2019, the silver splitters are actually a very affluent population and they can afford to split because they mostly have good pensions and the kids have gone to university. And therefore, if they have been in a relationship that hasn't been working and the children have left home, they have the ability to separate and go their separate ways. It's a lot easier for them financially, not necessarily emotionally, to leave. So do you think it's often the case just presumably that, you know, having the. Obviously the tie of the children keeps them close enough as a couple for it to work and also they've got the financial and practical obligations of the day to day routine and then is it thereafter they find they've got no common ground. That's absolutely right. I did some very unscientific research on Facebook a few years ago when I was starting out to ask people, women particularly who had already divorced, how long they waited from first deciding that they were thinking of divorcing to actually leaving. And the average was five years. Some women had been in unhappy marriages for 15 and 18 years. Some reported they hadn't been intimate with their partners since their children were conceived and they'd stayed because of the children. Oh, really? And would you say that intimacy, you know, is an integral part to a relationship to keep it, you know, sustainable, you know, in the long run? Personally, I believe so, yes. Yeah, I think so too. I think it's really important to be connected with your partner on all levels and, you know, feel whole in all the different areas of your relationship. And I think intimacy is a really big part. So that's interesting to learn from you. And do you also think that a lot of women, if they're in heterosexual relationships, wait for the man to leave? Women tend to be the leavers. That's interesting. In the circumstance where they have the financial resources to do so. Right. And this is the crucial thing because women generally, and of course this is a generalization, fare better on relationship breakdown than men do in the long run. So what we tend to find is that men won't leave unless there is a plan B already in the background. Generally speaking, and of course I'm generalizing, so I don't want you getting loads of hate mail letters. But generally speaking they don't. Whereas a woman, because we're more used to dealing with household bills, sorting out the washing and the ironing, the shopping, the kids, that part of separation doesn't phase us as much as it does a man. So say I am in the shoes of a woman who has decided to put career and, you know, own business and all that stuff on the back burner because, you know, building a family and my focus being on family is at the forefront of my mind. Where does that leave me when it comes to divorce in the long run? That's a really interesting question, Sarah, because the law as it currently stands, and there are no plans to change this part of the law at the moment is that one of the factors that the court takes into consideration on a financial settlement is the contribution that each person has made to the marriage. And that contribution can be financial or non financial. Oh, that's interesting because my first thought there was a little bit of despair because you know, there are so many women out there and that they make a conscious choice that they want to build a family and be the person that is present for the early years of the children's lives. And that more often than not is the case when building a family. If one person decides not to work for a little while, that it's the woman. So I did, you know, wonder where it left them financially. But you also say it depends on the. Is it emotional input, the practical input? I mean, how do they decide? So the court does not view a woman staying at home to raise her family as any different in terms of contribution to a man who may go to work and work full time and may be out the door from 7 till 7. In the eyes of the court, that has the same value. Now whether a soon to be ex husband feels it has equal value is a completely different story. Most of them do not think that. And that's a whole different conversation about how men value themselves and about how they put their worth in their financial value and the money they earn and the status. And I've got a blog on my website about. Is status an issue in your divorce? Oh, that's interesting because it is for many people. Many ordinarily generous, kind, giving men can become misely and penny pinching when it comes to things like sharing pension and spousal maintenance and providing for the children because they see it as money that's going from them to somebody else. Interesting. So let's say now I love all this little role play like try to put myself in people's shoes and see it from their perspective. And I think it's really important, especially for anyone listening in, that this show is completely relevant to how they're feeling or what they're going through right now. So say I am one of those people that's responded to your Facebook request all those years ago saying, you know, actually it's taken me a good few years and I'm still, let's say I'm still going through the thought process like how do I become the lady that leads? How do I get the confidence and you know, put things in place and in motion? Is it all in your book? It is all in the book, Sarah. And the thing is, is by going through the book you get a sense of all the steps that you need to take. So when I talk about, as I did in the last segment, about having a plan to leave your man, the more you understand about the process, how it works, what you might be entitled to before you actually push the detonation button, the more confident you can be. One of the things that hear frequently from women is, well, my husband tells me that X, Y, Z. My husband says this, he says that I'm not entitled to this. And one of the things that I will say to them is your response need only be, I look forward to hearing that from your solicitor in writing. Because women tend to believe everything their husband tells them without actually sense checking it or checking the facts legally. Well, my husband tells me I'm not entitled to his pension and then that's it. They just shut down and go, well, I'm not entitled. And I'm like, well, is that really true for you? It might be true for you depending on your circumstances. But let's explore them, I guess. So somebody's opinion and thoughts are not actually legal facts. And you know, leading yourself down, down a path of digesting all of those words, if they're not legally in place, an actual fact, then you're I guess you're just suppressing your own opinions somehow and putting yourself on the back burner and letting them take precedence in the whole decision making process. Is that right? Absolutely. You might have been a woman who had a great career, who managed her own finances, that had her own property before you got married, but if you became that woman who said, well, you know, my husband's really great with money, so on marriage, I'm going to let him deal with everything and I don't need to worry about it. If five or even just 10 years go by and you kind of lose that confidence and then you lose the confidence in yourself, your ability to think rationally about what might be possible, then you suddenly begin to realise that you're just sucking up everything he says and seeing it as truth without sense checking it. You know, it's so true that some things like nitty gritty of finances can be quite troublesome to get your head around. But it's so important we can often let those things fall by the wayside thinking, I can't be bothered to look at that. Deal with that. When you're in relationship or in any circumstances, it could be, you know, business or it could be, you know, household bills and it feels like a lot of life admin, you know, topping, topping up your inbox somehow, if you're not taking care of that, you're essentially not in control. Absolutely. So when it comes to the finalizing of a relationship or I guess marriage, you feel out of control when it comes, when it comes to finalising it. So you help women specifically, but you do have a couple of gents who come to you get in control again. And do you find more often than not women feel out of control with the finances? Absolutely. Terrified, scared, stuck. And so I gently, particularly in my membership, take them through the figuring out your finances five day challenge where again, on a daily basis they get a little bit of something to do every day so they don't get overwhelmed. So it's about looking at bank statements, credit card bills, mortgage statements, pensions, all of those kind of things, just a little bit at a time. Because in their future life, in their single life, they will be managing those things themselves anyway. So it's a good time to start right now. Well, interestingly enough, I was just about to ask you, do you find that women or men decide not to leave because they feel overwhelmed and they feel like actually staying in the marriage is far easier than getting to grips with all that life admin? Yes, I do. Lots of women just go, oh, it's too difficult. I'm staying just because of the admin, just because of the feeling of being out of control somehow. They would rather put themselves last and you know, sadly, yes, that's what happens. Lots of women make that decision. Gosh, you know, I really, I can relate. Not from personal, like circumstances, but I do have clients who have been through similar situations and I do know friends and family members who've probably been there at some point. And so it's really interesting to chat to you today. Emma. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan here on Love Lessons. We're talking all things divorce, divorcing with dignity, with confidence and feeling calm and collected, I guess in the decision making process. I'm here with the divorce alchemist, Emma Hetzenstall. And we'll be right back. Welcome to the women's Radio station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website, womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. 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With a wide range of sponsorship opportunities, including individual programs, we can tailor your experience for you. For more information on how you can sponsor a Show, go to womensradiostation.com Women's radio station supporting women's well being. Hello. Welcome back to Love Lessons. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan here on Women's Radio Station where we support women's wellbeing in all kinds of stuff. But this show is specifically about dating, relationships, healing, heartbreak, moving on after divorce as a confident single. So welcome to Emma Hepton store. Hi, Sarah. Or welcome back, I should say. We've been talking all things divorcing with dignity, how to move forward confidently and calmly. And all you ladies out there, how to be the lady that leaves and, you know, feel confidently in control of your love life and life in general. So we were just having a cheeky chat actually during the break, so very naughty of us. But we were talking a little bit about divorce stats and I asking Emma, is it true that January, you know, National Divorce Day is the busiest day and it turns out it might not actually be the case. Tell us more, Emma. That's right, Sarah. So the media love to talk about Divorce Day. It's a day that has been invented by the media. It's not solicitors themselves that will naturally talk about it, of course, from a marketing point of view, if the opportunity is there to talk about their services on, on the 7th of January or thereabouts, of course they'll do that. But actually, in terms of the numbers of people searching and googling the word divorce, September is actually a peak time. And you know, it got me to thinking when you said that during the break, that it's so true because in my perspective, working in dating in general, helping people find a partner or at least get on the path to doing so, we are so busy at Love Lessons in January and September, so I Thought, hey, it could be the same back to school mentality. What I mean by that is in September, pretty much from the 1st of September, we human beings in general are quite kind of conditioned to take stock of all those New Year's resolutions that we've perhaps made in the year, all the things that are going really well and, you know, wanting to do more of. And we also think about the things that haven't served us or haven't gone so well. And if that's a relationship, well, we think about either finding a new one or getting rid of the one that isn't serving us. So what do you find people say to you around September then about divorce? Well, there is still that. I know for me personally, and I'm not in this position, but there is that back to school feeling. And it is time to renew and refresh. And of course, with Christmas just round the corner, people start thinking about if they've had a bit of a nightmare over the summer holiday. Well, the next big holiday is going to be Christmas and how's that going to be and do they want to be in that position? And if they're getting ready to start a new year with a fresh start, then they need to start to be starting to think about divorce in September. Right then really, I guess it's the same kind of idea that during the holidays we have this pressure cooker, emotional, physical time with our loved ones or not. And they can often, you know, because we're in such close proximity with them for a longer period of time, we get to decompress from work if we're not working, we've taken time off for the summer holidays or I guess the Christmas holidays and we spend more time reflecting on is this working, is this serving me, Am I happy? And then I guess doing something about it for ourselves come January or September. So tell me a little bit because I spotted you do group support or coaching programs. What is it? I do group support and I have a membership as well, which is slightly different. Okay, can you talk me through the group support programs? Because I find that quite interesting that people going through something that can be so personal and they can work privately on your workbooks and read your book, you know, in the comfort of their own home or behind their devices where no one can see. So what is the benefit of being in the support program as a group then? So my group program is called Get Divorce Ready and it takes people through the process of that decision and checking that it's the right one for them. And then it might be Beginning to fill in some divorce paperwork. So the divorce petition, how to do that, what to do and what not to do. And then we start that financial disclosure process. So helping them get the finances in order and to understand that process. Because the divorce process and the financial process are two separate things and most people don't realise that. And in the group setting, I run it over Zoom and so I can see everybody, everyone can see me and they can see each other. And so I run a PowerPoint presentation through the Zoom program, talking about the steps they need to take and then people can ask me questions. And we have a private Facebook group and I use Voxer messaging so that the ladies can support each other. It's not just me teaching, for want of a better word. They've got that one on one support as well with me and the other ladies in the group. I find that really exciting in a way, for lack of a better word. Because if you think about, you know, those. What did you say before? Silver separators or whatever. The Silver Splitters. The Silver splitters, more often than not they'll have loads of couple friends who are up, you know, married and they might be the only people getting divorce in their circles at that time. So where. Other than seeking out a lawyer to help them or a solicitor to help them through the process or a mediator, if that's there for them at the time, we'll talk about that a little bit later on. I guess I'm trying to put myself again in their shoes thinking what support would there be out there for me and how could I find like minded, want to be divorcees? So do the women get chance to chat to each other and support each other? I guess other than hearing your PowerPoint and seeing each other. How does it work in the Facebook group? Yes, they do. In fact, the first time I ran it that the ladies that did that, which is three, two and a half years, maybe three years ago now, they still have their little Voxer chat and they still chat to each other regularly. Some of them are now through the process, some of them not, but they are their own little cheerleader. And that's for me, what is. I just love it because I can't be in all places all the time and I've not been through the process and I'm not going through the process. So there is an element that I cannot give and yet the ladies can do that for themselves. And that's what I love. Do you know, I find that really, really definitely exciting. I just, as everyone knows, have just run a retreat called the Staycations for Singles and that was to bring like minded singles together and get people offline and into the real world and dating. And the biggest takeaway for was bringing together a group of like minded people who have now joined a WhatsApp group and all that stuff where they can support each other in their journey to partnering. And so that is perhaps sometimes the best element of any coaching or, you know, thing that you join to help you through something, the community that is cultivated. So I think it's really exciting that they have that in order to go through the stages of divorce, go through the program with you and then move forward, I guess positively. So can you tell me a little bit about your membership site and what functionality does that have and how does that work? So the membership site is part Facebook group and it's a secret group so no one can search you as being in there. So if, for example, if you're worried that you might be being stalked by your soon to be ex partner, unless he has access to your Facebook account itself, he can log in as you, he wouldn't be able to find you in there. So it's a really safe place. And then there's also still an online but separate to Facebook training portal where there's audios, videos, worksheets, cheat sheets on various aspects of the divorce process and including a self study version of the Get Divorce Ready program. So they can just do that on their own aside from everyone else? Absolutely. We did also have a quick chat in the break and we won't go too much into it because we're going to save it actually for another time that we invite Emma back about leaving a toxic relationship. Can you just give us a quick snippet of what the, what reasons we would stay in a toxic relationship? Because it just kind of triggered me. Then you were thinking, you know, if you feel like your partner is stalking you and you need that confidentiality, I guess there might be some people listening in who are in those relationships and want to know that we will talk about it at some point. So can you give me a few reasons that people might, might stay in relationships that aren't serving you that are perhaps emotionally or physically abusive. Okay, so historically when we think about abusive relationships, we think about the quote, the battered wife. But there's a whole other section of the population that are experiencing what I call covert abuse. So it can be financial control, it can be emotional manipulation and that can happen at every end of the social spectrum. So very wealthy men controlling their very wealthy Wives who may look on the face of it to have amazing lives, live in nice homes, go on nice holidays, you know, go out and latte every day. But actually behind closed doors, they're being controlled and manipulated and they find it difficult to leave because sometimes they don't actually have access to their own money, even though the family has wealth. So they have nowhere to go. They can't afford to hire a lawyer because they don't have access to cash. Do you put those people in contact with someone specialist that can help, or do you have your own methodology that those people can approach you for? I'm also a high conflict divorce specialist. So there are plenty of ladies in my membership who are experiencing that kind of relationship ending. And it's different than ordinary divorce because you have to be a little bit smarter. You have to think about how your spouse is going to react to what you're going to do next in a very different way. So you've always got to be a few steps ahead of him because generally speaking, he's very smart. Gosh, you know, I did spot that on your website about being, you know, a high conflict specialist in the arena of divorce. And I did want to delve into what did that mean, and I had never spotted that before about high conflict. And I do want to talk after the break about conflict communication and resolution, or if divorce doesn't seem like the final answer of you're on the fence and not so sure how mediation could perhaps help you get to a space of understanding of where you're at, aside from all the tools that you wonderfully provide. So could you give us a recap of this kind of section about navigating divorce in the upcoming months to September, where we might be tipped over the edge to file. Okay, so where you can just take a step back in your relationship and try and be the observer of your own relationship. That fly on the wall. It's not always easy to do. But when you feel yourself getting anxious, take that step back, make lists about what's working, what isn't working, and put them away and then go back and review them them regularly just to see. So you've got that sense check within yourself. So constantly taking stock of where you're at. Absolutely. Really interesting. So we'll be right back talking conflict resolution, perhaps mediation. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan here on Love Lessons at women's radio station with Emma Hepton Storm. Welcome to women's radio station. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan and welcome to Love Lessons live on women's radio station hello and welcome to future Classic Women Awards with me, Stefania Passamonte on Women's Radio Station. Hello and welcome to Julie Mae is Listening. Hi, this is Anna Kennedy and we're at Women's Radio Station supporting women's wellbeing and we're talking all things autism women. The possibilities are endless. That's what makes us different. Hi, I'm Tracey Weedon of Brownhill Insurance Group. We are an award winning family run insurance broker covering a wide range of insurance products ranging from commercial lines to personal household, high net worth and fine art. You can contact us on 0208-658-4334 or visit our website www.brownhillgroup.co.uk for your free no obligation quotation at Brownhills. 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Hi, I'm Valentina Barbacci and I'm the Executive Director of Media Matters for Women. We're a registered charity operating in Sierra Leone and the Democratic Republic of Congo and we produce and share podcasts via Bluetooth on mobile phones focusing specifically on women and girls excluded from information due to extreme poverty. We empower those living in rural areas with media that transforms how they access, own and share information. To find out more and be part of this movement, come check out our website@mediamattersforwomen.org you're listening to Women's Radio station supporting women's wellbeing women's radio stations creating a global network for the empowerment of women and we want you to be involved. Join us on Instagram and Twitter WomensRadio station. That's WomensRadio STN or Facebook Women's radio station to keep up to date with all our exciting programs. Hello and welcome back to Love Lessons on Women's Radio Station. I am Sarah Louise Ryan and I'm here with the Wonderful Divorce Alcohol, Ms. Emma Heppenstall. Welcome back, Emma. Thanks, Sarah. Just before the break, we were talking about being a fly on the wall in your relationship. Just having a bit of a bird's eye view on what's going on. How do you recommend someone does that? By taking some time out and just being calm. So if meditation is your thing, if going for a walk with the dog is your thing, because when we're in that period of anxiety, as I know from my clients who are constantly voxing me, sometimes three or four times a day when they're not sure and so they want to just. Everything is kind of in the upper chest. It's like, oh, I need a decision. I need a decision. It's just to try as best you can to let go. And I know that's easier said than done, but when we let go and just observe, we can make better decisions. Something that has kind of been going around in my head throughout this whole show is that how to separate the practicality of divorce, which, you know, divorce has got so many steps that needs to be considered in the lead up in the decision making process as well as the actual divorce itself. How can you separate the practical tasks that need to be done away from how do I actually feel? How can you take your feelings into consideration and put that first and foremost without letting the practical steps overwhelm you? That's a great question, Sarah. I think the first thing to remember is that your lawyer is not your therapist. I know. Because they pay for that. You pay for that. So recognizing that you may need some additional support and there's no shame in that if you're really struggling with anxiety or anger. Because if you divorce angry, you will stay angry. So it's about recognising where you're at and just being honest. Because if you're absolutely fed up and annoyed and you could absolutely scratch his eyes out, it's better to admit that with yourself and deal with it before you take the practical steps. Yeah, and. And you know, it's. I often say the phrase that it's not the lack of love that is the killer of relationships, it's that saying it's a lack of friendship. And so if you feel like friendship has Somehow lost its way in a relationship. It's the. How do you communicate the fact that you want to leave if you've come to that decision? It's a great question. My advice is always, if you think that it may turn heated, is to not do it in your shared space. So it may feel obvious when he comes in from work to sit him down and say, I want to leave. But actually, unless one of you can leave the property there and then the property becomes toxic itself because soaking up all of that energy. Exactly. And the fact is, if you are not in a financial position to separate, you've got to stay there together. So go somewhere else. Go somewhere. And particularly if you are vulnerable and you're worried about any outbursts, is go somewhere public and say it. So that when you're surrounded by other people, for example, I think coffee shops are great because they're noisy and they're busy and people are too busy listening to their own conversations, worrying about what you're doing. But there's people around you that you can have that conversation with. You know, emotionally speaking, one thing about breakups in general, relationship breakdowns and marriage, you know, resulting in divorce, that I often come across is the building up of resent. And it's that again, another saying, you know, when you resent someone, it's like drinking a bit of poison and expecting someone else to die. So when you have a relationship that's come to its final, you know, days, how do you stop resent from building? Because energetically that can have side effects such as things you've mentioned like anxiety and chipping away at confidence because you're holding on to such pent up negative energy. How can you stop resent from building? Speak your truth. Okay, speaking your truth. Now, whether you do that in relationship counseling. So I quite often say to clients who come to me and say, I know it's definitely over, there is no going back, but I need a safe space to share it. And if the coffee shop isn't going to be right for you, then use a relationship counsellor to help you because there's that independent third party that will support you to what you need to say and also your spouse to hear, really hear what you're saying. Can you go as a solo to relationship counselling? You can indeed. Confidentially, without the other party knowing. And is there a stigma around going to therapists and counsellors and, you know, relationship specialists? Do you find, especially with the women that you look after, have you found that before they've reached you as the. I Guess the final result they're in. In the process of making their decision and coming to it. Do you find that they talk about a stigma around speaking their truth? Some of them do. I find, however, that most women by the time they get to me, have already voiced or been to relationship counselling. So they've either said it to their partner who has refused or they've been and it hasn't been worked. But equally, I quite often find that once a woman says that she wants the relationship to be over, the man will then step up and say, let's go to relationship counselling. Then, oh gosh, it's kind of a little bit. Is it better late than never or is it too little, too late? Well, that's always a personal choice. Some women will say, well, for me there's no point because I know it's over. And I say, well, sometimes that can help your husband come to terms with the fact, you know, with the grief cycle and moving through that if there is an independent person to help them understand why you're saying what you're saying. Really interesting. There's a couple of things that I really wanted to touch on with you. One is the grief cycle. And we'll get to that in a moment because I want to talk about how you help and how you help yourself as well. Dealing with so many women who are in, I guess, emotional turmoil as well as practical turmoil of, you know, coming to the end of a partnership. So what, what? Just to scrape it back a little bit. When you're taking stock, stock, and you are the fly on the wall and you're looking at your relationship, being calm, going for those walks, how would you, or do you recommend people set the goalposts of making decisions without letting it go on for five years, letting it go on for 15 years, what do you recommend? Okay, so that's a great question because it will really depend on the circumstances. Because there are two aspects here. I said earlier that at first you should do nothing. And if you can afford to do nothing and you can wait and just see how it plays out, that's often a great way to go. However, if you feel that your soon to be ex husband may start to dissipate assets, hide money, then you do have to act quickly. And it may be that in those circumstances you do need to go and get legal advice before property or assets are hidden or sold. Because once that happens, whilst the court has powers to undo those things, it can be costless, time consuming, and there's no guarantee that you'll get Those assets back. Gosh. So you really have to be prepared and think of yourself as a solo in this situation and navigate it as will serve you best. You kind of have to work through it on your own emotionally as well as practically before you, you know, it would be sensible before you vocalise where you're at. Okay, so let's talk about you and the women work that you do. How do you separate, you know, the weight of the emotion involved with working with your clients from so you can, you know, help other people? You're not soaking it in like a sponge every single day and it's not being weighty for you in the evening when you go home. That is definitely a work in progress, Sarah, because obviously when you do this line of work, as I'm sure you understand with what you do, is that people's emotions, you know, they're my business, they're what I do literally seven days a week. Part of the unique service that I offer is that people literally can text me, voice message me on a Sunday afternoon. And I find that lots of women enjoy is the wrong word, but find that valuable because the children might be off with their dad that Sunday afternoon and so they've got time to sit down and deal with the paperwork or an emergency issue. So I have to learn, I guess, to practice more of what I preach because self care is really, really important. So speaking of self care, how would one navigate self care going through this process as it's so important of divorce? Your friendship circle is really, really important. And it's also important that you are clear about who you're going to share this journey with and who you're not. Because well meaning friends and family and sometimes even your bestie may not be able to separate their opinion and their desire to protect you from what's actually in your best interest in this situation. So you need to think carefully about who you're going to rely on for emotional support and pick people who will protect you and support you for your best interests and not for something that might be going on with them. How do you recommend someone navigates rebuilding a social circle and support group when a divorce process or, you know, absolute has come through and you find that all your couple friends, which often is the case, have swayed towards one partner and it might not be be you. What, what would you recommend then? I'd recommend that they start going out, start connecting with new people because you need new people in your life when you're, when you're transitioning or you have transitioned into solo life. Who understand that life is not the same as it was before. Sometimes married friends want to keep you where you were. But you have new freedoms in many, many ways and therefore you need to be able to embrace that. So how to embrace it? 3 Quick Fire Top tips to be confident in the decision making process Put yourself first, put yourself first, put yourself first. I really love that it's one but all three at the same time. Amazing. So Emma, just so the listeners know where to find you. Where can they find you? Sarah they can find me at my website which is www.emmaheptonstall.com or they can Google the Divorce Alchemist and they'll find me. I'm also on Twitter, on Facebook, Facebook, hedivorcealchemist and on Instagram. Amazing. And I have got a copy of how to Be the lady who Leaves here on the desk in front of me. I'm going to have a read of it. I'm going to Review it on lessonsinlove.co.uk and do a link back to Emma's website. For anybody that is going through this and feels like they need a little bit of TLC and support through the decision making process of divorce. Next week on the show we'll be going from heartbreak to heart make and we'll be talking all things. Moving on confidently as a solo, getting to grips with who you are as a single without starting the search again and rebounding if divorce has been the thing for you or a breakup. I'm Sarah Louise Ryan here on Love Lessons. Thank you so much Emma Heptenstahl today for joining us. Thank you Sarah. Been a pleasure. Amazing. This is the show where we talk about love, dating, relationships and starting over again as a confident single. Thank you so much for joining us and hope you all have a wonderful week. Welcome to the Women's Radio station supporting women's well being. Women's Radio station is all about diversity from opinions, career, ethnicity, education and most importantly, women's well being. We aim to celebrate the individuality of every woman everywhere, providing opportunities and the platform for your voice. Visit our website womensradiostation.com for more information. I'm Tamina Zaman, founder of Empower and Enrich. When it comes to money, do you clam up or get confused? 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