The Menopause Show With Sue Moxley – Julie Robinson, From Menohealth

Hi, this is Sue Moxley. This is Women's Radio Station. This is my show, The Menopause Show. Please follow us on any of our socials: Instagram, Women's Radio Station, and Facebook and YouTube. Today my guest is Julie Robinson. Hi, Julie. Hello, Sue, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. And I've been reading your book, Julie, which you wrote on the menopause, and I'm really impressed because it's easy to read. Do you know, is that— was that the idea? That is exactly the idea. So I'm so glad that you've said that. It's very much written from real experience, not just mine, but also from the many thousands of women that we hear from and support, just to really talk about menopause openly and answer the questions that we get asked all the time. Yes. And, um, it's so confusing, isn't it? Like, like it says in your book, we don't realize that it isn't just hot flushes and it isn't just brain fog or having sleepless nights. There are so many symptoms um, including your own, which, which we can get back to. But tell us about your company, um, and what it's called and what it is you do. So Meno Health is there to try and inform, educate, and support people through menopause. That's people before it happens to them, while it's happening to them, after it's happened, but also to to really try and help the people that live with them or work with them, because it does affect everyone, doesn't it, Sue? It's not just you going through those symptoms. So Meno Health originally was set up to try and run exercise and support sessions. If you sort of imagine a combination of a Slimming World meets Zumba, where you do a bit of movement but you talk about menopause and you get some help as well. But even though that was going great guns, we'd got on BBC Breakfast and This Morning live show at the NEC, the pandemic just stopped all those classes, didn't it, for a good while. And so what we did, we took the support sessions online, and we were working with HSBC at the time, and they said, These little half-hour sessions are actually ticking everyone's boxes because they can sit and listen in while they're eating their sandwich, learn something, get the support they need, and then do a little bit of exercise. And I'm talking easy things, things you can do at your desk, things you can do in the kitchen, just to try and offset some of those issues that we face with our heart health, with our bones, with our muscles, with our weight gain, and with achy joints and so on. And that's why we try to include a little bit of movement along with the chatting and support. Can you say that a little bit more because I'm a little bit confused? So the half an hour that you have online, is that live every week or is it kind of pre-recorded that you send out to people? Well, we do a combination. Mainly the support sessions are being run by companies, organisations, who want to support their workforce. So they actually have a block of, say, 10 weeks where every week we discuss a different topic related to menopause, and we also give them a video of that so people that can't make the meeting can join afterwards, along with a downloadable magazine with all of the info, the signposting links to get more help, and the exercise videos. So it's a workplace support program But we also have a big social following, especially on Facebook and Instagram, where we try and share a lot of this information with, with everybody, because not everyone's lucky enough to get this through the workplace. And we have a Meno Sisters Facebook page, and that's where it's really helpful to know that you're not going through this alone, you're not going mad, and somebody else out there is probably feeling just like you. Yeah, well, that's, that's a fantastic idea, and well done on making it happen. Um, yes, so the, the companies, the work companies are okay with it, and they, they're, they're kind of, you know, um, encouraging it. Very much so, and it makes perfect sense, doesn't it, for a company to offer this type of support. It's been very much in the press recently, hasn't it, about where there have been issues where companies are not supporting their workforce. And given the fact that so many of their workforce are women going through menopause or perimenopause, particularly when the symptoms begin, it's good economic sense for them to support them so they stay at work, reduce absenteeism, actually help with recruitment and retention of their staff, because we're normally hitting the peak of our careers just at a time when these symptoms begin. And there's, there's no need for people to have to leave their jobs if they get the right help, medical support sometimes, but a lot of the support we find that really works is having a safe place to talk about it, to get the information. You know, we've got to get this education across so that we know what might happen to us, not to be afraid, but to know where you can go for more support and more help. That's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, did I hear that the government kind of employed their very first menopause in the workplace person, lady? Do you know about that? I don't know about the particular individual, but I am follow the menopause mandate. And in fact, we've got one of the team going to the House of Lords on World Menopause Day on the 18th of October to be there to listen to the latest updates, because we did get involved with the All-Party Parliamentary Group when they wanted to gather stories from across the country about how people are experiencing menopause, what's happening, and what do they need? And they came out with these 14 recommendations, at least, that are still not all being implemented. But there is now a bigger voice, and that is where the campaigning really matters, because we've got to come together to be a collective voice to say, this isn't good enough. We need better help, support, medical treatment, training, so that we don't have to suffer like We have been for many, many years now. Yeah, and you know, it's, it's incredible really. Sorry, I just kicked the chair. It's incredible really because, you know, a lot of doctors, and really not just male doctors but female doctors, don't get any training in menopause and are quite often dismissive of people that come into the surgery and say, you know, I don't feel good, this is happening, that's happening. And I think it's important that— I think that they should bring menopause training into when they're training to be a doctor. And I've heard that from a doctor's mouth, actually. He says he thinks that would be a really good idea because the stories that you hear of women that go to the GP because they have really bad symptoms and they get sent away with either antidepressants or, you know, anti-anxiety tablets, when in actual fact they don't have anxiety, they don't have depression, they just have a hormone imbalance. Yes, and that's part of what the sort of political issues are in terms of this campaigning, is that it will become mandatory for all doctors to have training in menopause. And Sadly, that is one of the most common problems that we hear through our support groups, through people getting in touch through social media, is that when you've plucked up the courage to go and see your doctor and then they dismiss you, it's— you are desperate because you're already feeling emotionally vulnerable, so you're not really ready to fight your case. And if someone just sends you off with a prescription you take it and you disappear. And that's where we're losing out. Women's health is being negatively affected, not just at the time, but sometimes for the rest of their life, because we need to get the right treatment and the right help at the right time. So we do have one of our support sessions, and we share this on social too, is how to have a good conversation with your doctor. And it's just a a bit of a checklist, things you can do in advance that will help you so when you walk through the door you don't burst into tears and walk out with an antidepressant prescription. And I think part of that is looking at the NICE guidance for menopause. And you can literally— NICE, you know, this is the body that helps the NHS and all patients access best practice in medicines and treatments. So all GPs and everybody, you don't have to be medical professional to see them. If you acquaint yourself, if you really have a look at that and say, well, this is what I should be getting, I should be listened to, I should have my symptoms taken into account. And then if I want to have HRT, hormone replacement therapy, and there are no problems with my medical history, then this is something that I should be able to discuss. I'm not advocating all women should have HRT at all, but we are hearing that even though there's more women than ever wanting it, they're not always getting that prescription. And that shouldn't be the case. We should have a choice. Yeah, because I, you know, I hear all the time that women in perimenopause, which of course we know that our whole— the hormones are fluctuating. Fluctuating wildly in that phase are sometimes turned away when they go to the doctor and they say, well, come back when you haven't had a period for a year. But it's in the perimenopause as well that people suffer so much. And that's really old-fashioned thinking, isn't it? Go away, come back when you've been a year without a period, and then we may give you some HRT. And that's wrong. So we really need to, to get, to get that out there. Yeah, I'm afraid that's so true. So a lot of the people that have told us that their doctor has said you can't have HRT till your periods stop. Well, actually, no, that's exactly— you want it as you're in perimenopause. It's those years where your sleep is being disrupted. The anxiety can begin, your loss of confidence, body changes, and, you know, weight gain. And so what we really need to act before that time— it's never too late to go and get your medical advice, and I'm a typical example of that, you know, a very late player in the menopause game in terms of getting the right treatment. Given that actually I had a hysterectomy at the age of 36. But that's why I do what I do, is because I wish that I'd known then what I know now. So we really— I love the fact that you're doing this radio show to try and inform people and just get more and more people that listen and tell a friend. Eventually we're going to spread the word and people have a much better, healthier menopause and life beyond. Well, the reason, just like you, Julie, the reason that I, I got into, you know, a radio show and I write for a menopause mag and I have a company as well is for the very same reason as you, that I had a really bad experience that lasted for like 3 years where no one, no one could tell me my symptoms. I didn't know what was going on. I mean, it's another story. I'll get you to tell yours, but And it was only through 3 years of studying myself on the internet that I eventually found an answer, you know. And it was— those 3 years were really, really not good. Now I know what— why I got my symptoms and I deal with them. But there were so many people I went to, so many different gynecologists and people with allergies and nerve pain and all sorts of things, and no one got it right for such a long time. So tell me about your— do you mind sharing your story? Because I, I read, read your story in the book, and I just think it's fascinating. What— I know it's terrible what happened to you, but it's fascinating because no one would believe that that happened because you were, you know, having menopausal symptoms. Yeah, absolutely. And just like you, you go through so many unnecessary medical tests and worry and fear, where actually if it had just been discussed and diagnosed and treated at an earlier stage, it would have saved the NHS a lot of money, let alone me a lot of strife. But I think Sadly, my story, I really thought that this wouldn't be happening now, what happened to me, but unfortunately, like you, Sue, there's too many people are still having these really bad experiences. So with me, I had endometriosis and I had a hysterectomy when I was 36. Yeah. And I was a teacher at the time. I was working in a primary school then, and I can really sympathize and empathize with all those women that suffer with painful and very heavy periods when you're trying to work and you've probably got a family and parents are perhaps aging, you know, you're right in this, in the middle of trying to please everybody, do everything. So at 36, I was just overjoyed to be out of pain and not have any periods. What freedom! Fantastic. Yeah. Now, unfortunately, at the time, there was, um, the research that was out there that we now know was very misleading, but we didn't at the time, uh, was that HRT was linked to breast cancer risk. Now I have lost 3 sister-in-laws to breast cancer, and even though they were not related to me, I became involved with a charity, a breast cancer research charity, and funnily enough went on to raise over £1 million for the charity and giving thousands of talks about breast cancer awareness along with a group of volunteers. You know, we really did put all our heart, soul, and time into raising awareness of breast cancer. So you can imagine when a doctor said to me, oh, you don't want HRT, it, it could give you breast cancer, I thought, well, obviously I wouldn't dream of it and run a mile. Yes. What I didn't know was actually being so young, I needed to have estrogen. Um, I hadn't had breast cancer history, um, a risk in my family, so there were no contraindications for me. I should, and should have been given oestrogen, because when you go through early menopause, you're really taking away that vital hormone that would have still been in your body till about, on average, the age of 51. So there were many, many golden years there that I missed out on. So when I started to have as well, Julie? Or did they take your ovaries as well when you had that, or did you keep those? They kept my ovaries, but within the next 4 years, I know now that they had failed. And I know that, you know, if you have a hysterectomy and have your womb removed but they leave your ovaries, you normally have a much earlier menopause, as those ovaries tend to to die off. And then, and then I did have to have my ovaries removed because they were causing issues with ovarian cysts. And my sister had ovarian cancer. So at that point I was, I went back in and had further surgery. But I was, I was going through perimenopause very abruptly and very much younger than my friends. And of course then you feel like you're, you're a really odd person because Why on earth can't you sleep at night? You know, what's going on with you? Why do you— why are you suddenly having all of these other weird symptoms when you feel that you're young and healthy? Yeah. And it takes you by surprise. Well, they call it surgical menopause, don't they? And literally what's happened is overnight— well, not so much with you because you did keep your ovaries for a while. Yeah. Even if they weren't functioning fully and they were, you know, kind of disappearing. But overnight, at a very young age, you have kind of gone into menopause. Yeah. And it's such a shock to the system because where we do it gradually, uh, when we, you know, if we don't have a hysterectomy, you've gone bang into it at such a young age. And you should have been replacing those hormones. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I was like everybody, you always associate menopause with hot flushes, and they weren't my problem. And so I didn't at that point equate these weird symptoms that I was having. I just thought it was me, something wrong with me, that I really— I could go to sleep, but then I'd wake up have nightmare insomnia and then feel dreadful every day. The next day you'd be tired and, and you just get into this downward spiral, don't you? But you're still trying to live this very full and busy life. And then I started to have heart flutters that— it wasn't really like a palpitation, it actually just felt like my heart was missing beats. And it was— then it would do a huge double beat and like a thudding in the chest. And you put up with it and you just think, well, that's a bit strange. And yeah, as I say, originally I was a PE teacher, so, you know, I was, I was pretty fit and still running and being active, so I couldn't understand that I'd have anything wrong with my heart. And then it became so bad that one evening I actually became very frightened and thought, I wonder if I'm having a heart attack. This was so awful. You could feel my pulse and there'd be like several seconds where there was no pulse and then it would go ba-dum. And, you know, my husband was like feeling the pulse and saying, crikey. This isn't right. So we went off to hospital because, you know, the doctors weren't open at that point. And they had me in overnight. They tried 3 ECG machines and they kept saying they were faulty because the trace was so erratic and wild. So it isn't something I was imagining. It was really happening on that heart trace to see that there was very strange heartbeat. Anyway, they eventually discounted that there was no heart attack, and this was something for me to follow up with my GP. I went through several more ECG tests, and then I was referred to a heart specialist. They gave me the reassurance after doing a thorough scan of the heart and said, you know, you're fit and healthy, your heart is absolutely fine. But you're suffering ectopic beats, which is a type of palpitation where you sort of have a big gap and then a double beat. And every time it happens, it makes you feel a little bit faint. And, you know, in fact, I did pass out on a flight to go on holiday, and I was unconscious and it was terrifying for everybody around me. So that's why these things have such a massive impact. But just to finish that story, it was as I was leaving the consultant's room, he just said this throwaway comment, you know, it's very typical during menopause, and I read that you've had a hysterectomy. Maybe your heart is something to do with being in menopause. I was like, well, goodness me, I'd never have known that. I look back now and that was a little bit of a lightbulb moment. I had one of those, similar to me. So similar. Yeah, I had a lightbulb moment just like you said. Yeah. What happened to you, Sue? Well, it's quite, um, it is quite intimate, my story, but just going back to yours a minute, I've experienced those, um, irregular heartbeats, um, where your heart misses a feet. Um, and it is awful. I really, really sympathize with you. I mean, I've had to, to pull over when I've been driving because I'm really, really ill, you know. Yeah. And, and I think mine was brought on by, um, I don't think it was a menopause thing. I think it was adrenaline and, you know, anxiety and that sort of— mind you, sometimes it just happens randomly. Um, But that's absolutely terrifying. So are you, are you saying that if you'd have been on HRT, that wouldn't have happened? Of course, you can never say for sure. But given what I know now, and having read so much research that has been done on HRT and, and the importance of this during early menopause, getting oestrogen replaced I think that I, I'd be pretty certain that I wouldn't have had that experience if I'd have been given HRT. And, you know, I found out as well many years later that I got osteopenia, which is the precursor to osteoporosis, thinning of the bones. And again, I know for sure that I, if I'd have had that oestrogen during those golden years where, you know, I should have had it, I'm sure that that would not have developed because I've exercised my entire life, I've had without doubt enough calcium, vitamin D, etc. I've done all the things that you need to do to protect your bones, and so it was a real shock when that happened to me, and I'm very, very passionate about telling other women about looking after their bones because it's a silent thing. You don't know. It's only because I requested a DEXA scan, which looks at your bone density, that this was found. Otherwise, you know, I may not have known. So it's just helped me now because I can do even more to look at ways of boosting my bone health, which we all need to do because, you know, 1 in 2 women over 50 will have a fracture due to osteoporosis. So that is so common, we really do need to look after our bones. Is that why you brought your supplement out? Is it called Gopo? Might have got that wrong. Yeah, Gopo. Now that's, that's not really for bones in terms of bone density, intensity. But we've been really interested in Goppo to help with joint pain. So one of my other experiences, and this is very typical of so many women, you suddenly wake up one morning and think you've aged 20 years, and you think, I've got arthritis overnight. Yeah, exactly. And you, you're trying to get out of bed and you literally feel like you're 80 years old. Everything hurts, you know, my hands, I couldn't, I couldn't even stretch my fingers. I was thinking, oh no, this is, this is so serious. What am I going to do? Once again, I went in. I had to go to the doctors in the end. And they did all sorts of tests for rheumatoid arthritis to rule that out. And I was very happy to say there was nothing wrong. With my joints. But again, I wish I'd known then what I know now. So when we're looking at supporting people through menopause, they always ask, is there a supplement that you recommend? And I'm really reluctant to promote products because you can just end up being flooded with advertising for all sorts of everything. There's an awful lot of companies that have jumped on the menopause bandwagon, haven't they? Yes. And suddenly everything's for menopause. Yeah. But with, with Goppo, I was so interested because there is that clinical evidence that backs it. So they've really looked at the safety and how effective it is, and they did clinical studies that showed that women of menopausal age reported a 50% improvement in their mobility and a reduction in pain following 3 months of taking Goppo every day. And, and so Goppo is actually derived from rosehip, so it's really fantastically full of vitamin C, and you can take this with other medications. There aren't any contraindications for taking this, and I just think, what if it means you're not taking painkillers Surely this is a better idea for you. So I'm happy to tell people about Goppo and then let them go and try it for themselves. It's really that sort of anti-inflammatory effect that comes from this natural plant rosehip that seems to work for so many people. And of course it can help with arthritis as well. Well, I'm on it, Julie. I've got some of it here and I'm going to start taking it today. Because I, you know, I am on a form of HRT, but you still get, you get mornings where you get up and you think, oh my God, I just feel so old. So not that old, you know, really. Exactly. And you know, this is typically an age where you can start to notice, regardless of menopause, there might be some wear and tear with the joints, or it may be that had an injury, or it could be repetitive strain, overuse, or inflammation. And, you know, inflammation now is a buzzword, but I've been really interested in the research that goes behind that in terms of what we can do. Let's empower ourselves to do what we can to reduce inflammation in the body, because inflammatory responses are what lead to all the conditions that we want to avoid. From type 2 diabetes to high blood pressure to heart problems to arthritis to dementia. So, you know, that's why I like to talk about movement, even if it's not exercise, in, in a way of empowering yourself. That's something we can do for ourselves that shouldn't be painful, that shouldn't be horrible, that fits into your daily life, that helps you maintain good joint health, and there's a whole load of other benefits as well. So if you are on like HRT or a form of HRT, you're fine to take, um, Gopo as well? There's no— Absolutely, yeah, yeah. I, I always say to people, if you're, um, going to take anything and you're on other medication, just ask your pharmacist because because they are brilliant at knowing exactly what might affect, because even if something is natural, you know, we should know if you're taking another medication whether it could possibly affect how you metabolise it. So always do a double check, but Gopo is definitely something that is seen to be as safe as possible for as many people as possible. So, are you taking it and are you feeling the benefits of it? Yes, I am. I'm putting mine in either my yogurt and nuts and fruit in the morning or my porridge or a smoothie. So I just take apart the little capsule and sprinkle it on. You can do that, or you can take it as your a tablet instead. Okay, okay, that's brilliant. And so the other thing is, I will tell you my little story in a minute because you might find it interesting, but you've got this Menopause book that I have started to read, and I'm very impressed because it's very much— I like— anyone can read this, you know, there's no like massive terminology going on and complicated words and everything. It's very much easy to read, and you have, yeah, you've done really well. So tell us about the book and why you decided to write it. Thank you, I'm glad to hear that. So, well, we were, I was approached by the publishers Hodder and Stoughton to say that they're writing a series of FAQs book, frequently asked questions, on different topics. And they want me to do one on menopause, FAQs on menopause, which is the title of the book. And they wanted to ask if I would write this because they loved the tone of voice and the way that we engaged with our our followers on social media. What they liked is the combination of having information but a sense of humour and also some positivity, because I think menopause can just seem to be full of doom and gloom. And what we want to do is say, if you learn about it, don't be worried about it, and here's all the things you can do about it to help yourself. And also, I think one of the best feedback bits of feedback I got about the book was, 'This has been absolutely brilliant for me, but I just need to get my husband to read it now.' So, you know, it's for partners too. And, and it isn't like giving them a Bible of 2 inches deep to read. It's saying you can just flick into this or pick out one of the questions. So I haven't got time, I just want to read about anxiety, I just want to read about weight gain, I just want to read about Urinary tract infections, you know, and you can dip in, read it, and also look at the links to go and find out more. So you can get further support if you need it for any particular area. It's brilliant. It is really easy to dip into, like you said, and I've been reading it in bed and it is very, like, yeah, it's easy to read and very informative. In fact, I've just opened the page And it says, loss of confidence. I have to drive all over the country for my job, but suddenly I've lost my confidence and dread going on motorways. It's so amazing how many times I've heard that. Yeah. And yet that isn't something you would naturally associate with menopause, is it? You, you just wouldn't think that that is anything to do with it. But you know, that, that's sometimes it's people's livelihood, having to travel. For work, and they just don't want to do it anymore. And this association that you then get with, like you mentioned, pulling over when you're driving because your heart is racing, your adrenaline's pumping, you've got all this cortisol, stress hormone, coursing through your body, it can create absolute havoc. And then next time you're in the car you start to associate driving with that horrible feeling of being out of control. And then it becomes a phobia. Exactly, exactly. And if we can try and intervene before it gets to that— one of the things we're really bad at is looking after ourselves and giving ourselves enough time for self-care. We put everybody else first, and then at the bottom of the list you know, do you ever take this time out to do some breathing or a little bit of movement or getting that walk or having a walk, a lovely bath, or just giving yourself a little bit of headspace to just do not very much? We are running around like mad, multitasking, and, and actually we do need to do— make self-care a priority. Because women, women wanted to be equal in the world and wanted to be respected and have great jobs. And absolutely, that's happening, and there's loads of women in really fantastic jobs. But then we forget that they have to do all the other stuff as well, you know. I mean, maybe if they're earning enough money, they can employ a cleaner and someone to do their shopping and that kind of thing. But lots of women are in really high stressed jobs, and then they have to come home and look after the family as well. It's exhausting. It sure is. And, you know, you've got to do what you can to look after your physical and mental health. And there are lots of things that you can do, but I think it's no coincidence that the divorce rate goes up during this stage of our lives. Because it can impact on your relationships so much, and it can impact on your ability to work. And I think that's why we've got to keep talking about it and keep educating ourselves about it and really bring ourselves together to know that you're not on your own is a fantastic place to start with. And that's why getting in with a support group doing that type of thing is going to be of benefit. That's, that's perfectly correct. Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you briefly what happened to me because I think my listeners have heard it before, but you might find it interesting. Um, I, I was in a yoga class because I used to go to yoga about 3 times a week. Uh, I was just kind of 50, I think, and I felt my skin split on my vulva. When I was doing a movement. Yeah. Awful. Yeah. So literally I thought, wow, what was that? And it just came out of nowhere. And of course, when you get home, you have a look and you think, how did that happen? And it was very sore and difficult to use the bathroom. So I went, I went to my GP. Those were the days when you could get an appointment within a few days, you know, and you could go and see them. And it was a lady and And she had a look and she said, what have you been doing, riding a bike? And I said, no, I've been riding. Oh my goodness. I know. Oh, I'll just put some Vaseline on it and it'll be fine. Right. Well, that was the start of 3 years of trying because I didn't really know. I know it sounds naive now because I know so much about menopause now, but I didn't know why that had happened. Yeah, I had no clue. It's just bizarre. And then that, that went and that got worse, um, and worse. And then I used to get inflammation, which was so sore and, you know, painful and all of that. And then, and then what happened was the worst part was I— if I tried to have sex, it was impossible because the pain was so excruciating that it felt like a fire, like a red-hot fire. Yeah. So that impacted— it didn't impact my relationship because my husband was fine, but it actually— I didn't want to be like that, you know. And so that started a 3-year journey of going to gynecologists, um, I had tests to see if I were allergic to things like soap powder or, you know, any of those things and found out that I'm only allergic to fake jewelry, which is quite a good thing, really. So, yeah, you have to, you have to buy me real jewelry only. Absolutely. Nice one. Yeah. And then I'm not exaggerating this, but this every time I went to see someone and I tried something different, You know, another 3 months would go by, and then the nerve pain was the worst part of all. So I just kind of discovered from self-reading that it was like provoked vulvodynia. But some women have unprovoked vulvodynia where they feel that nerve pain in the vulva area all day, every day. And Some people still don't know why that happens, um, whether they've had some injury to their back, but you know, they're suicidal because they're in constant pain. Yeah, it was through a Facebook group that I was on, a private, and American lady said to me, um, have you tried the Mona Lisa laser? Well, I'd never heard of it, didn't know what it was. No, a laser can't help me. Why do I need a laser? And then I read about it and realized that it was an internal laser and an external laser that started your collagen working again and brought, you know, blood flow back. Yeah. So I looked and there was only 3 in the whole of our country. Of these machines, and 2 of them were in Essex, amazingly. Wow. So then I went to see the, the gynecologist there, who's my hero to this day, and he examined me and he said, yeah, I think this treatment will help you. He said, you know, the nerve pain that you feel is literally because your nerves— you have— your skin is so damage down there and thin that your nerves are exposed. That was my lightbulb moment. He said to me in one sentence what I didn't, you know, literally he said, it's like your nerve endings are exposed and you have no skin to cover them up. And that was it. It was like, wow, I've 3 years and someone has just explained to me in one sentence what's happened. And all other people, they didn't, didn't know that. And to cut a long story short, the laser worked. It was amazing. And I had the skin taken away and I had new skin put there because it was that bad. And I go once a year to have one of those treatments, and I'm also on bioidentical hormones, but Julie, that was my own kind of research that got me to that point. And it shouldn't be that way, should it? You know, when you go to seek help from a medical professional, you expect that they're going to be able to give you the diagnosis that you need. But sadly, that— your story is not unusual. And this is where I think, for as much as we're talking about menopause, The genitourinary symptoms of menopause are still taboo, and I recently did a fantastic training course, Adore Your Pelvic Floor. It was pretty intensive, and what I've learned— because I thought I already knew quite a lot— but I've realized that we are just not, uh, we don't have enough information and education about things that we ought to know about. And quite honestly, the effects, like yours, on people's lives is really extensive, and they often don't seek help. Apparently it's typically 7 years of suffering before a woman picks up the confidence to go and see a doctor, by which time it's probably got really, really bad, and yet they could have got in much sooner and perhaps had some topical estrogen, for example, which can completely change the pH balance of the vagina. It can help with all of the skin around the vulva, maintain that elasticity, and reduce the risk of having these vaginal atrophy and all this irritation and soreness and burning and so on. So, I mean, so it's great that you're sharing your story because it will help so many others seek help. I know it's hard to share it. I've got better at sharing it because obviously it's very private, but I have got better at sharing it. And so many people have like thanked me because I've been honest about it. I mean, why should I, why should I be ashamed? I didn't, you know, I haven't done anything wrong. But, and it needs to be out there because women are probably, I mean, to be honest with you, I did try topical estrogen and it did help a bit, but it's still, I still, I needed more, if you get what I mean. I needed to use that plus, you know, taking hormones and having like this laser treatment. I needed a bit more, so it wasn't quite enough to deal with how bad mine was. But a lot of the treatments that we hear about are still only available privately at the moment. And sometimes— we always say to people, go to the British Menopause Society website to find a menopause doctor in your area, pop your postcode in, but unfortunately there's just not enough of them, and so the wait is so long and people really are suffering, sometimes for 12 months before they'll get an appointment or even longer, and that shouldn't be the case, you know, we should be able to access the support and the help that we need much sooner, and I think that A lot of women will just suffer in silence. The same goes for prolapse and urinary incontinence, and yet there are women's health physiotherapists that are like, well, just magicians really, in terms of being able to give you a proper diagnosis to see if you are doing your pelvic floor exercises correctly, or if there is too much tone, not enough, if there is a prolapse, whether you need a pessary, what type. And so there's lots of things you can do, but you do need to get that help, and you've got to be brave and go and have that appointment in the first place. Can you get a pessary for urinary incontinence then? Absolutely, yes. There's different types. Not the type at the moment, Julie. There's ring pessaries, and sometimes there's ones that you can put in yourself every day, but most often you can have a ring pessary that is in for 3 months. And from all of the women that I've spoken to who have had this, it's been transformative. It's, you know, just lifts everything up, holds it in place. And prevents that stress incontinence in particular. But this is where you've got to go and get— it's so individual, there's lots of things out there, and you've got to go and get a proper diagnosis— what's happened to you, what's recommended— and then give it a try. So just going back to that Pessary, because I'm very interested in that, I'm sure other people are. Is that just if you have a prolapse, or does it help if you have, you know, just muscle laxity down there or something? I think it can be used for both, because as you know, pelvic floor exercises are often only mentioned when you've had a baby, and yet we ought to be doing them throughout our life, 3 times a day, but we don't. And we forget. So I think with learning how to do those exercises properly, it's the first thing that we can all do for ourselves. And you would just like to go and see a physical therapist to do that? Yeah, so the Women's Health physiotherapists are fantastic for, for helping you with that. The Squeezie app is brilliant, and that is something you can buy yourself, it's only £2.99, or The NHS can actually provide it for you for free if they want you to follow a specific program. How does that work then? It's called Squeezie, and it's an app that you can download and it sends you 3 reminders every day and talks you through, sort of follows how to do it, when to do it, the different ones, because you know you have to do the fast contractions and the slower ones to help with urge incontinence. I'm doing it now. Me too. Come on, everybody listening must do them right now. It's bizarre, you know, I'm sitting here because you're talking about it, I'm doing it, but actually I don't know if I'm doing it correctly. I've got to be honest, because who knows what it's supposed to feel like? Yeah, and I think that sometimes the issue is is that we think we're doing it properly and we may not be. I mean, the way we know that we're engaging the right muscles is if you are sitting on the loo and you're doing a wee and you stop mid-flow, you know, you've clenched the right muscles. And that's the one you can just clench and relax, 1 second, 10 times, very quickly, tense, relax. But don't do it while you're doing a wee because it might, with you can get some retention of urine that can lead to a urinary tract infection. Once you've done it a couple of times, you know where it is. You are very informative, Julia, I must say, because I was just going to say to you, is that a good idea to do it when you're on the loo? Because we might not remember, and you've said no because it can cause, you know, an infection. So yeah, I think one of the things I learned on this course was how having extra tight pelvic floor muscles can actually mean you're not always emptying your bladder. And one other really great bit of advice that I'm sharing is that to do what they call a double void. So when you've finished doing a wee, instead of getting up and rushing straight off, just rock forwards and backwards and rock side to side, a little bit like doing a hula hoop on the loo, but just sitting there relaxing maxi, you often find an extra little bit comes out, and that means then that you properly emptied your bladder. Because we do everything at double speed, and, you know, speedway, get up, run off, and actually just take a few more seconds to properly rock forward, back, side to side, and then it'll empty the bladder more fully. Julia, I've got visions of women all over the country now on their loo seat. I hope so, wouldn't that be brilliant? That's a really good piece of advice, really, really good. I mean, my mum used to get urinary tract infections like all the time. You do when you're older, don't you? So yes, yeah, I think if they become persistent, you know, everyone gets one occasionally, but if it's not treated properly at the start, chronic, and that's so debilitating. And, you know, again, we've had on our— we've got a YouTube page that anybody can go and have a look at for Meno Health. And there's a great interview with a Dr. Catriona Anderson, who is a specialist in chronic urinary tract infections. And she has now set up a laboratory to do the special testing on urine samples. Because, you know, when you go to the doctors, they just do a little dip stick, and apparently, you know, more than half of the time they're not picking up the infection or they're not giving you the right antibiotics for that particular bug. So again, these are the things that we can share that give you a sense of feeling in control, feeling empowered to go, I know where I can go to get further help, I'm not going to put up with this. 'You know, this isn't something I should suffer with.' Yeah. Oh, you're— yeah, you're— you are fantastic, I must say. You're absolutely like a mine of information. What— so what do you think on the men jumping on the bandwagon? You know, I didn't actually read it, but— oh, I have. There's— there's been a big outcry, I think, from a lot of women that are fighting to get men menopause recognized, to get doctors trained, to get the support in the workplace that's required, to ensure HRT is available to those that need it. All these big things, and they're going mad about men being given time off for menopause. I mean, I do recognize that men can have midlife crisis, and changes in health that occur in their 50s particularly. But the andropause is very different to menopause because they have a gradual reduction of testosterone, whereas we are on the roller coaster and then it falls off a cliff. So it, it's not comparable. But, you know, if they've got a severe loss of testosterone, that needs to be diagnosed and treated, but it'd be nice to think that women would be given testosterone when they require it, which at the moment isn't always the case. I don't think we've ever got front page news like that, have we? I saw it in my neighbour's house. I said, save that for me, I need to read that. I haven't read it yet, but I just thought that's hilarious. But, um, no, you're right, I mean, their own problems, don't they? But, um, you know, um, like to be left out. Exactly, exactly, yeah. So just tell me one more time the name of your company and the website and all the details of it if people want to check out your page. The best thing is if you go to Meno Health, so it's literally menohealth.co.uk, and you'll see that we do. There's some lovely blogs on there for people to read more information from other experts. We've got the Menopause First Aid CPD, which has been nationally accredited, and that anybody can go and do that training so that they feel better placed to support others through menopause. We've got the book, we've got our workplace support, and at the bottom bottom of the page, you can just link to Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter, or X as it is now, and just go and join our group if you want to on Facebook and get more support. You are feeling good these days? Well, you know, it's really nice to say that menopause isn't the end of the world when you've gone through it. I'm I'm 63 now and I run 2 companies. I work far more than full-time. You know, I feel fit, healthy, and well, loving life. It isn't the end, it's the start of a new chapter. But, you know, I do think that that's why we've got to do a lot more about looking after our own health. It isn't any good just keep looking after everybody else and then find that, you know, you're hitting retirement age and you're not fit enough and well enough to enjoy it. You know, I don't want to retire for many years yet, and I want to keep living life to the full. So yeah, we've got to look at that nutrition, seeking balance with our stress and anxiety, looking after our mental health. We've got to build movement into our daily life. Anything that makes you feel happy and good that involves moving, keeping your muscles strong, and your bones strong. And then just look at all the things that are out there now that have been proven to try and help you with, with joint health, bone health, mental health. You know, do your research, listen to others, and take control. I mean, we've been talking for an hour and it seems like 10 minutes. It does. I can't believe it. And it's been lovely to speak to you, Sue, and I think you're doing a wonderful job to keep raising awareness and getting people to talk about menopause. Oh, and you too. And yeah, we're mutual kind of warriors, you and I. We are, we're menopause warriors, definitely. We're the same age as well. I'm 63 in a month. So yeah, and I feel like I'm gonna carry on going forever as well. Oh, well, that's wonderful. That's really good to hear. You see, it's lovely to leave for everybody with a positive message at the end of this, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on, and it's been lovely to talk to you. My pleasure. Thanks, Sue. Bye, Julie. Bye. So this is Sue Moxley, and this is Women's Radio Station, and that was The Menopause Show. And what a lovely lady Judy Robinson is, and Wow, she knows so much stuff. Probably a lot more than a lot of doctors, but that's a really controversial thing to say, but I've said it anyway. And so if you want to follow us, go to Facebook, Women's Radio Station, Instagram, Women's Radio Station abbreviated STN, YouTube, or look us up on the website. So thanks for listening, and I'll speak to you all very soon. Bye-bye.