Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Helen Thorn, Ellie Gibson, Jo Hemmings

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr. You're here with me every other fortnight, uh, with— on Thursdays on both the men's and women's radio station. Well, it goes out live streamed on the Thursdays and then it's repeated as a radio show on the Friday at 4 PM across both stations. Just a little reminder that you can follow us on all the usual social media platforms and also on the dot-com, dot-com websites. Apologies, I have another cold. It was only like 6 weeks ago I lost my voice on the program. So that's what comes with meeting lots of people and being all around the shop. So I'm absolutely thrilled that I've got 4 wonderful guests today. It's going to be a fantastic show. And I'm going to kick off with my first guest. Let me tell you about them. They are a comedy duo who are rather filthy, who totally get the gritty and funny side of being mums and are a total laugh fest. I know because I've seen many of their gigs live and you come out with aching sides, as you should do at a comedy stand-up show. They have a number one parenting podcast. You can find them on social media @scummymummies and their website scummymummies.com. They are Ellie Gibson and Helen Thorn, and they should be joining me about now for a chat. Hello, Helen. Hello, Ellie. Hello there. Now, I— it's been ages since I saw you. I think I saw you in the autumn of 2019 at one of your shows before COVID hit, when we were all just happily getting on with our lives. Oh, I know, what a time. Uh, who, who could have predicted how the world was going to change? Uh, and now, yeah, and now we're back doing shows again, which is, which is wonderful, but Yeah, we're going to talk about your shows first. I want to ask you generally, how are you two, and are you prepared for half term with your kids coming up very soon? Oh, I think so. We're going away for half term, which is one of those things— is holidays with kids aren't really holidays in the traditional sense, are they? I don't know how relaxing it's, it's going to be, but we're planning to have a holiday anyway, so we'll see how we go. Are you going to let them run wild in the countryside or at the beach or what? I'm— I, I— there's no letting them run wild. I mean, there's no option to let them be domesticated. I wish there were. So, uh, they're going to be running wild wherever they are. So we'll just see how we go. How about you, Helen? Any plans to keep the children organized? Yes. Well, um, I'm a single parent, so I am seeing them half of half term, uh, which is one of the wonderful things about being divorced and being a single woman in my 40s. So the first half of the half term, I'm planning to have a right old knees up with everyone. And then my children return and I have to sober up. And I'm taking my daughter. We're having a holiday in London. We live in London, but it's going to be her birthday and she's turning 13. So we're staying overnight at a hotel and we said we're going to do 24 hours of her favorite things, like go to her favorite frozen yogurt place, go out for morning tea, afternoon tea. And so that's really exciting. And she wants to get a second piercing. In her upper earlobe. I mean, this is what 13-year-old girls like. So it's going to be really fun. I'm actually looking forward to it. And then it's my birthday, uh, the 30th. So, um, yeah, it's going to be quite, quite, quite a good time. I know I shouldn't— I sound very smug as a single parent, um, but it is, it's excellent, by the way. Highly recommend it. Listen, I'm sure Ellie, Ellie is envious of you. You're getting half of a half term to yourself. It sounds dreamy. Yeah, it sounds pretty great. Another Helen has joined us. She says, good afternoon, hello ladies. Hello to Helen. Um, so I often wonder what you're going to think when your children are old enough to see videos of your comedy, because it can be quite in your face. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's something— and the podcast as well, because obviously we, we talk about our lives on the podcast. So we do We do have to think about that, um, a bit. And we have a family-friendly version of the stage show that we do at festivals and stuff. They have seen that, and they're, they're not very impressed, to be honest. They could take it or leave it, uh, it's fine. Um, so yeah, it's something we're conscious of, but I think really we, we're just conscious of them being proud of seeing us as working mums going out and, and supporting the family, um, and, and doing what we, we need to do, really. So yeah, hopefully we're good role models, and that'll just gloss over content. That's the idea. Yeah, yeah. When they're 18 and they actually see what you really talk about in your non-family-friendly shows, they'll be, 'Mum, mum, wow, you're really cool.' That's what they'll say. Yeah, possibly. Um, they did accidentally see some of the naughty show because, um, we were at a festival and a couple of our kids walked past with one of the— I say one of the dads, Ellie's the only one with a, uh, partner. Uh, he actually accidentally brought kids to the late night shows, so they heard a few rude words. But to be honest, I think they've heard those rude words before. Yes, definitely. I'll never forget when I first started talking about sex and answering sex problems on radio, and my children were saying, my friends at school are listening. You know, they were only like 13 or whatever, my kids, and, and they were going, oh, you know, they heard you talking about sex. And I was like, well, are you embarrassed about it? And they said, no, actually it's really cool. Everybody says how cool you are. So So I think that's gonna happen to you too. You're gonna be in the Hall of Fame of teenagers one day. Is the Netflix series Sex Education based on your life, Pam? Is that what you're saying? I wish, because I'd be rolling in it if I'd sold them my story. Yes! Damn it! My agent has, you know, something to answer for there. He didn't get me that gig to consult on the script. Now, I want to go back to what we first mentioned, the pandemic, and how the last time I saw your show was probably 3 months before it all hit. So what was it like for both of you? Now, I think your journeys were different because from what I believe, Helen, that's when you discovered that things were not right in your marriage. So I'm sure there's two different stories to come out of that question. Um, uh, yeah, I, I found out, uh, my husband, um, had had an affair 3 weeks before, um, lockdown, uh, so, so my marriage ended, uh, immediately, uh, and so I went into lockdown, um, coping with the trauma of finding out that information and processing grief and all those sort of things. Yeah, so I went into lockdown as a newly single mother and sort of trying to balance homeschooling and, you know, trying to navigate a new life that I, whilst hadn't chosen, had tried to make the best of. So in a way it was really good because I had to really sit in all the sadness of that, but also it was a great time to reconnect with my children and, and reform as a new family of three. So, you know, lol, hilarious. Um, but we managed during that time, we were producing content as the Scummy Mummies. We were doing, uh, Instagram Lives twice a week. And, and, um, and lots of people said that us talking honestly about what it was like to be parents during that time, they found quite helpful. And it was a good excuse for us just to sort of, um, do silly things on the internet. And that kept us going as well. Well, it's interesting how you say you had to sit with your pain and heartache at that discovery because of lockdown. And I always advise people when something horrible happens, you know, embrace the horror of it, roll with it, because if you bury it, it will just come back to haunt you. The other thing I say is count on a trusted friend. And you two have an extraordinary friendship. So, Elly, what was it like for you knowing that Helen was going through this And it was lockdown, you know. Well, I mean, we are primarily business associates, Pam. That's really, you know, what it's devolved into now. Uh, yeah, no, of course. Well, of course it was incredibly difficult. Um, and, you know, I would go around there and, and drop food on the doorstep and sort of wave at her from afar. And it was incredibly hard not to be able to give her a hug or, um, or just see her on a day-to-day basis because we spend more, more time with each other than we do with our, our own— well, you know, children. So it's, you know, it was, it was really tough. Um, but in a way, um, it also— I just didn't really have a choice. And in a way, again, that was quite, quite good. So when the lockdown happened, my husband, um, he's a contractor and he was between jobs, so we had no money coming in from him. And obviously no one was hiring people for new contracts at that point, given what state the world was in. And then Helen obviously, you know, couldn't do a lot of work because she was processing what she was processing. So I kind of knew quite quickly, and I said to Pete, you know, I'm gonna have to keep both of, both of us afloat, uh, and this is, this is what it's gonna, it's gonna be, basically. Um, but that gave me a reason to get up in the morning, didn't it? And, and to get, get through it, and it was quite strengthening. So, you know, yeah, we just, I think like everybody, um, we just muddled through, and some people had a worse time than others, but everybody had a thing, it feels like, on top of the pandemic. Everyone was going through something. Um, so yeah, it was tough but we got through it. Now, you two, did comedy come first and then you became firm friends, or were you already friends and decided to start the comedy? No, we, we met at a stand-up gig 8 and a half years ago, um, down the road in Detford. And, um, we were both, uh, Ellie was starting out as a stand-up, I was returning after having two children. So we both sort of approached it at exactly the same time, that we were both starting a stand-up career in London. And yeah, I saw her on stage and just thought she was the most funniest and coolest woman I'd ever met. And then we met backstage and had a beer together. And yeah, that was how the friendship started. But that— were you doing parenting stand-up, Ellie, at that time when Helen first saw you? And I wasn't actually— I was only doing little 5-minute spots, open mic gigs, and I wasn't really talking a lot about, a little bit about my marriage, but not really about parenting, because at that point my, I was still my, my first one, and my son was, uh, about a year and a half old, I think. And actually comedy for me was a break from parenting. I'd been at home with my little one, um, uh, almost full-time for all that time. And so I quite liked, I like being able to go to a pub and stand on stage and not be a mum first and foremost, and, and just be me old self really, and, and, and have a laugh. And it wasn't about that for me. But then obviously when I met Helen, that's a shared experience that we were having. Our boys were born 11 days apart, so again, they were at exactly the same stage. Um, and, and so it sort of evolved into that. And then when we found that there was this gap in the market, almost by accident, we found out that there's this huge appetite for people talking about what we were talking about, because there weren't a lot of other comics doing it. And obviously it's before Motherland and before you know, there were quite a few parenting podcasts out there. Ours really was one of the first. I think it was the first sort of funny, silly, filthy parenting podcast. So we really just got lucky with the timing in a lot of ways. Yeah, because I remember about that time there was the yummy mummy thing that had been around for a while, and I can remember debating with one of the women who was doing this yummy mummy thing on the Lorraine Show about, is this really the, the what we need to present to mums, this yummy mummy thing? That you not only are you going to be 24/7 doing cooking, nappies, whatever, for the first however long. But then you also have to be yummy, you know. And so I remember that debate. And so when I heard about you two through our shared agent, I was like, oh my God, I love this. I have to go see them. Because I'd already railed against the yummy mummy thing. Yeah, it was exciting and, you know, really empowering to be part of that new wave of the way um, women were talking about motherhood and in a fresh and honest way, and that hadn't been done, you know, uh, very publicly. So I think that was, that was great to be part of that. There's been some blogging and, and we were, we were basically the first podcast. And also, to my knowledge, you know, we're the only sort of comedy duo doing this kind of, uh, parenting thing live on stage. So I think it's, yeah, it was great to be part of that. And so many women said thank you for you know, speaking my truth. And so I think there was this, you know, I think it will always— there was always be a bit of shame, uh, thrown at women, um, for how they mother and all that sort of stuff. And it's great to kind of break that down a bit as well because we've got none of that, have we, Ellie? No, exactly. That's— people say how brave we are. It's not to do— break— to have bravery or courage is to own something, to have something. We have a lack of shame and pride. That's, that's a very important distinction. I feel like me on a night out after a few drinks. Yeah. Pride and Shame. Um, so tell me, so did it just happen organically, or did one of you go, hey, we need to do this angle that really is authentic and kind of keeping it real? Or how did it— then, you know, you met and you met at this gig and you admired each other, but who suggested— um, we met and then a few months later— so we used to meet up with our kids and stuff, and we had a good old laugh. And then a few months after that, I was actually looking for a parenting podcast. Podcasting was quite a new medium, and there was quite a few out there about technology and stuff like that, but there wasn't one about parenting, certainly, that was, that was funny or honest. It was all sort of people talking very earnestly about what car seat to buy, and that wasn't really what I was looking for. And I thought, you know, Helen and I can't be the only one having this experience of parenting, which is we love it, we love our kids, blah blah blah, but also it's really hard and funny and silly. Um, so, and then the idea, the name just popped into my head, Scummy Mummies, and the idea popped into my head. And so I wrote to Helen, see if she was up for it, and, and she was. And it, to be honest, at first it was, it was never to inform or to educate, or it was just sort of to entertain, but also it was just to have a reason to meet up once a fortnight, um, you know, so we could say to our husbands, right, well, I've got to go, got to go and see Helen now, and we've got to drink 3 bottles of wine because obviously that's, that's a requirement of the job, uh. And so it was a, it was a sort of excuse to hang out that luckily became something bigger. That's so true. So during the pandemic, you were doing a lot online. Did you miss that kind of sense of live performance? I had Milton Jones on my last show, and he was telling me how it really got to him. You know, you missed that buzz. I mean, how did you feel about that? I mean, Helen, I know you're processing what was happening to your marriage, but also did it— Did you feel that live thing that you get, that adrenaline, was missing, or was it, was it okay? You didn't mind not being in front of audiences? No, there's nothing better than doing live comedy. That's one of the most favorite parts of our job. I mean, we do the podcast and we do, um, stuff on social media, but our live shows are the best thing ever. And also, it feels, it feels like a rally. That's what I love about it. It's women all coming together and supporting each other. So I think that energy you can't replicate in any other form. And when we've gone back out, even though sometimes we sell out theatres and other times it might be like two-thirds full, but the people who have turned up are there for a really good time. And it's so exciting standing backstage and hearing everyone sort of cheer before you even come out. And yeah, I really miss that. Being on tour is fantastic. And also the curries afterwards. I would think, Ellie, are one of our great joys. So tell me, when did you get back into live gigging? Was it just as lockdown ended, or only recently? What's happening with the shows? Um, it's all a bit muddled in my brain. It gets muddled, doesn't it? But we, we did do a few gigs last year, sort of towards Christmas time. Um, but to be honest with you, it was, it was strange. People had to be socially distanced, and I think a lot of people were still a bit anxious and nervous, as were we, kind of about the whole thing really. So we gave it a go, um, and some of the gigs were good, you know, but it wasn't— it didn't have the, the feel of, you know, what luckily we're back to now. I would say now, and now we are properly on tour again, we're going all around the country, um, we're packing out crowds in a lot of places. And as Helen said, the people who turn up, it's like, it's like Ibiza. People are really up for it, they're really excited to be out. And they're like, oh, before we've even been on the stage. I haven't done anything yet, I might not be funny, give us a minute. So it's been a really interesting experience and, and yeah, very energizing, very exciting. So what happens when a gig goes wrong, where, where maybe heckling or— I don't know, have you ever had like bad heckling of someone saying, oh, this is, you know, you're turning mums into, I don't know, What? But, you know, we, we've, it's usually if someone's had too much to drink, um, and we might just get annoying heckling, which is women agreeing with us in some ways. Like, they'll just repeat what we've said back, um, so that can be a bit distracting. We're like, yeah. Or they sort of step on the punchline and things like that. And, and I think sometimes if they haven't been out for a long time, they haven't been at a live show for a couple of years, they forget that they can hear you talking. Like we can hear them talking. So that's, that's a bit distracting because everyone wants to, you know, be part of the show and listen. So we haven't had some really terrible, um, heckles because I think, you know, 99% of our audience are women, and women are pretty awesome, to be honest. I think we're pretty lucky. So where, where are you? I know you've got a gig tonight, but, and, and where's that going to be? I think it's Potter's Bar tonight, I think, which I've been to before. They are in Potter's Bar. It is a party, party bar they should call that town. Yeah, you can see why they put the bar. They didn't just call it Potterstown. It's— they like the bar. Potter's Bar. But no, I, I haven't been there. So are you going up and down the country everywhere? Yes, we have. We're trying to. Yeah, we, we need to book some gigs up north because, you know, especially getting back to touring, we didn't know how it was going to go. We didn't know how many tickets we were going to sell and stuff. So, um, a lot of The gigs this side of Christmas have been kind of towards the south of the country, though we have been places like Exeter, and, you know, we're making— we are making the effort, but it's, it's— I think, you know, we just have to look at the map. And, and it is disheartening because often we'll publish a list of sort of 20 gigs and we'll get messages from women going, oh, but come here, come here, come here. And we'd love to go everywhere, but we are mums and we do have, you know, our kids do like having us at home. We're not single male comedians who can drop everything and just go away for 3 weeks. We just can't. So we have to fit in the tour around our lives, otherwise otherwise it's not fun and it's not good for our kids. So I think that's, that's the issue, isn't it? And of course, um, on at your website scummymummies.com, people can get the gig info. And anywhere else besides just going to your website, is there— or is that the main place for tickets? Yeah, and we were tweeting quite regularly all our gigs, up-and-coming gigs, and social media. All our social handles are basically @ScummyMummies, um, so you can find out dates through there as well. But, um, yeah, and we did the Edinburgh Fringe this year, which was great. We just did 4 nights and actually— I miss Edinburgh. It's been 2 years. Yeah, I know. You guys actually got up there. That's amazing. Yeah, it was great. Now, I once was giving a lecture when I used to work in the NHS in parenting about the under 5s, and I was giving a lecture to colleagues and there was a new mum in there and I was talking about the troubles of some of the client families. I'd seen recently were going through. And this new mom, just tears start running down her face, crying, crying. And I realized obviously I'd touched on something in what I was describing that it immediately connected to what she was going through. So that was pretty difficult in an intense sort of lecture atmosphere of about 20 colleagues. We comforted her and that sort of thing. Have you ever in a gig had a new mom just start crying? Because, you know, you're talking about the nappies and how you're just dying for that wine at 6 o'clock and whatever, and, and you get the new mom who's really frazzled. Has that happened? Or maybe you wouldn't even know about it. We— I don't think we've noticed that during the show, but definitely afterwards, especially in the before times. We used to do meet and greets, so we used to sell t-shirts and sign books and things and have selfies with people. And we would quite often get women, um, often crying and saying, you know, I've had such a hard time. And they would often tell us their story and just say, you know, and often as well, if they listen to the podcast a lot, they would be like, you know, you, you're talking about what I'm, I'm going through. And now, especially with what's happened to Helen, I mean, we get messages every day, don't we, Helen, from, from women saying, you know, talking about their own separation or whether they should get a separation, or it's— people are really identifying, aren't they? Yeah, and I found that especially because I released a book which you are in, Dr. Katzberg. My copy, you say it was delivered on Monday, but anyway, yeah. Um, so yeah, the book's called Get Divorced, Be Happy, and Ellie's written a chapter as well about supporting friends. But yeah, I get, I get messages every day from women saying, I'm going through it, I'm just at the beginning, or I've, you know, I'm a couple of years out and I found your book really comforting. And I've found that the most, one of the most rewarding things that I've done, because it feels like, you know, I've turned something that was horrific and traumatic into something quite positive that's given, um, you know, given a voice to, to people who have gone through divorce or become single later in life, or just survived a terrible thing that they had no choice over. And I think that's been, um, fantastic. And yeah, and I think, I think also women really like that we're a double act because we, we show what friendship is about. And I think female friendship is, it is incredibly powerful. And I, I've been very much witness to that in the last 18 months and, and very, very privileged to have such amazing friends. So I think, I think, you know, what, what started off as a drunken meeting at a pub, you know, doing stand-up, we, we had no intentions that we would actually do some good. And, um, yeah, and then recently we ran the London Marathon We both ran it and, uh, yeah, ridiculous, isn't it? Such show-offs, Pam. Absolutely outrageous. I don't know how you did it. I, I, I've been a runner all my life. I've never done more than a half marathon. I, I, I just know my own body. I didn't think I could do a marathon. I mean, I just— hats off to you. I mean, I just feel— I always feel embarrassed when maybe people who haven't been running all their lives like I have do a marathon. I'm going, oh my God, I'm useless. Not at all. It's just lots of time. You could run a marathon if you wanted to. It is just, um, putting in the extra hours and every week just doing an extra K here and an extra K there. But that said, no, not everyone has to do it. It's a lot of work and it's a long way. Actually, back to your book, I just suddenly thought, what if it did go to my neighbors and they think that people who've just moved in that I, I want a book called Get Happy, Be Divorced, or sorry, Get Divorced, Be Happy. Yeah, that would be nice. That's a nice divorce. Being happy, they'll think Oh, so our new neighbor is planning to get divorced. That's just worry that's lurking in my conscience now. Now, um, so more about the book. Oh no, actually, first I'd like to say you talk— mentioned your podcast, and the time I joined you two to talk about sex for the podcast, that was hilarious. That was brilliant. That was absolutely awesome. I hope people actually felt a bit empowered in their sex lives afterwards. But, um, your podcast— I've listened to a couple of your other, you know, guests and stuff, and there always is a lot of hilarity, but often also a strong message. So do you, do you purposely try and get that across in your, your podcast, the fun with the, with the message, or is that just sometimes it happens with the podcast? I think it just sort of— it just, it happened. We're not— that would, that would imply if we said, oh yes, that's deliberate, that would imply we're in some way planning things or in control or know what we're doing, and none of those things are true, Pam. So, uh, absolutely not. Um, no, it's just things that have happened. It's really down to the guests. And when we first started the podcast, we didn't even have guests. The first couple of episodes were just the two of us, and then we were like, actually, this is just two women in a room, isn't it? It would be quite interesting to have some other people, whether that's experts like yourself or, um, you know, sometimes people, famous people, or sometimes just our mates who we have a laugh with. And that's, for me, one of the best things about the podcast is we've got to meet all these different people and just ask them stuff that we personally would selfishly like to know. And luckily, it seems other people want to know the answers to those questions as well. So what we're saying is it's all about us, Pam. It's just an exercise in us having a laugh and, you know, chatting to clever people. And then, yeah, and I think you get gifts. I, from memory, I think I brought you guys some vibrators. You did. And I, I mentioned this in the book. I mentioned this in the book because I said, oh, I wasn't really into, uh, masturbation and sex toys until one day, uh, Dr. Pam Spare came on our podcast and gave me a vibrator. And, and I said how revolutionary that was. And I was very shy and up until recently have been incredibly shy about talking about sex, and now I can't stop it. It's embarrassing how much I talk about sex. Um, yeah, so, so, um, yeah, it was a— I, I remember just feeling a little bit shy, and I remember you bought things like whips and all sorts of, all sorts of treats, Pam. Yes, eye-opening in many ways, and not just the eyes. Yeah, it was generally an opener. Now, just— we only have a couple minutes left, so I want to talk about the book. So it's, um, Get Divorced, Be Happy. What other sort of experts did you have in it? I know, I think I gave you some information on confidence building after divorce. Yeah, obviously from my work I know about that, having been divorced long ago. I got married very young and then I got divorced very young. I had some experience with that. But what other sort of experts or, or voices are in the book? Yeah, so the book, the book is about basically the first year of separation. So it goes from um, talking about the decision to, to separate. So there's stuff about grief and anger. So we had— I had a couple of different psychotherapists, Dr. Anna Mathur, and then I talked to the amazing Helen Russell, who wrote a book called How to Be Sad. And, and we really sort of unpack, you know, the societal pressures about being sad and talking about sadness. So she was excellent. And then of course, uh, Philippa Perry, who's a child psychotherapist, is excellent. And then I talked to someone called Rosie Wilby, who wrote um, uh, the Heartbreak Monologues, I think that's called. She— and she talks from the perspective of being a lesbian and how there is almost a heartbreak hierarchy. And like, when lesbians split up, they get less sympathy, uh, as a whole. So I wanted different sort of voices about, um, women and about separation. And then there's, you know, the wonderful Jessica Foster-Key, who talked about— she made the decision to separate from her partner. So, and it wasn't because of an affair. And so it's just about sort of unpicking our sort of societal kind of perceptions about how we value marriage and how we perceive single women and single parenting as well. And, you know, there's terrible stories about me getting into online dating as well, so, and Ellie's excellent chapter. So, um, yeah, so it's, it's, uh, I, I hope there's— it's, it's an uplifting read because it's also about kind of, um, finding confidence in myself, but also, um, realizing that I don't need a man. Um, you know, maybe just for Friday nights, but, um, that's about it. For the half term when you don't have the kids. Yeah, bring it on, bring it in. I was gonna say, you know, the, the online dating app research shows that if you involve a friend, a trusted friend, in creating your profile and also looking at the people who are contacting you, that you end up with a better quality experience. So Ellie, I hope you've been in there like a drill sergeant going, no, don't swipe on him, he looks rubbish. I mean, have you got involved in any of that? I don't get involved in the, in the initial selection process. She's definitely got that covered. Um, but, uh, I, I have been known to, to say things like, well, he's a waste of time, that's a waste of your time, you don't need that. He's not that one, not that one. He's rubbish. I like the other one. I like the— what happened to the barista? What happened to him? Uh, the sexy Italian barista? Oh yeah, yeah, he's good at those. Um, yeah, no, in all seriousness, it's quite hard not to feel protective. And, you know, especially at the beginning, because obviously, you know, Helen— Helen's a grown woman, she can do what she likes. At the same time, especially when she just got separated, I was conscious that she was vulnerable and potentially open to exploitation, um, you know. And, and so it was a bit like, yeah, I was anxious that she shouldn't have the mick taken out of her by these people in quite a sort of angry maternal way, um. But I think, I think that's, that's the same in any situation really, isn't it? You want to look out for your friends and, and you care about them. And some people out there are, are dodgy, so it's just life really, isn't it? Yeah. Well, listen, that is a good note to end on. I hope you don't have any dodgy ones in your audience tonight at Potter's Bar or Party Bar. Thank you guys so much for joining me. I know how busy you are, you're on tour. Everybody who's listening, please check out the website scummymummy.com, scummymummies.com, and of course on social media at Scummy Mummies. Thank you both. I hope to see you soon live on that stage. We love you, Dr. Pam. We love you. Thank you. Thank you guys. And now I'll be moving on to my next guest who happens to be a behavioral psychologist who you will have seen on tons of TV programs and heard on loads of radio shows. And she's also one of my best friends. So I'm delighted that Jo Hemmings will be joining us. You can find her on Twitter @TVpsychologist, and her website is johemmings.co.uk. And she should be there now. Hello, darling. Hello, how are you? I'm really well. It's so good to see you. How are you? It's been about 2 weeks since we've spoken. It seems like a long time, you know, on the phone, but it's good to have a few texts, a few messages. Now you and I are going to be talking about dating and from dating moving into a new relationship. And the first thing I wanted to ask you about are the dating red flags that you advise your clients, because you do a lot of date coaching what red flags they should look out for? What are— let's start with a couple of your top ones that you think people ignore too often. I think probably what they ignore is that these things should be organic, they should evolve quite naturally. I think when people meet for the first time, your expectations have to be kind of— you have to nail them, really. So if you've got very high expectations or very low expectations, you'll fulfill those. You won't see the red flags. So I think particularly if somebody doesn't follow through with you, doesn't say thank you after a date, or there's no connection at all other than the next time you meet, maybe. If you're not seeing— I mean, look in the whites of their eyes, look them right in the eyes. Very actually quite hard for someone to lie if you look at them direct in the eye. So try and get a connection going. I mean, it's difficult talking about red flags because red flags are often an individual's red flags. So what I see over and over again are patterns of behaviour. So either people go into the same pattern of the kind of partner they choose with the same expectations, and it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. When that doesn't work out, back they go again. So we've got to break those. Alternatively, people that recognize they've been through difficult relationships cheated on, been hurt, go the other way completely to somebody perhaps who they would 100% trust, but actually they have no compatibility with. So these— I will look out for individual red flags according to somebody's relationship history, really, because neither of the going for the same pattern nor busting it and going in the other direction completely is where you want to be. I think open-mindedness and acceptance and going with that flow, however keen you are to be in a long-term relationship, it's your best mindset. You've got to be ready to date and you've got to have that sort of thought process. Well, I think something you, you said, uh, sparks my thing about reliability. I often say to people, and what you've mentioned is, you know, if they— you've been on your first date, maybe you met on an app and you messaged, you finally meet face to face, and then they say to you something like, oh, I'll message you in the next couple of days and then 8 or 9 days later they message. If someone shows a pattern like that where they're not reliable, they don't— they talk the talk but they don't walk the walk, that is one red flag that I find comes up with a lot of people, particularly now where, don't you find it's so easy, people dip it in and out and they've been chatting to one person on one app, then they chat up someone else on another app, and you get this kind of where they they spread themselves thin and they're disappointing people everywhere because they are not reliable. They're not really in it to meet one person. So I think that that whole thing about reliability is really crucial. Sounds boring, but if someone early on when you're supposed to be really excited about seeing someone then says, yeah, I'm going to message you tomorrow, and it's in 10 days, that, that's not good. I, for me, that's a red flag. That I talk about with, you know, single clients. Also, the attitude thing you say, I think it's really important. Oh, what's happened to Jo? I can't see Jo. I think— have we lost her? I'm just talking to my producer. I'm not sure if we can— get her back. Oh, can't— yeah, something's happened to the line, and we'll see if we can get Jo back, um, and we will continue this conversation. I, I'm just typing a message to my producer. I don't know what's happened about that. Uh, yeah, evidently she needs to log on again. The link went down on her. So while I'm waiting for her, I'm going to talk about that, that point when she was saying how when you're first dating, it's really important to recognize your own pattern of behavior. Have you perhaps been hurt? Someone cheated on you, and so now you're running scared and kind of looking for the easiest option. Um, so that pattern of behavior is important to look out for because you may find someone who's really passive. You can tell them what to do. You can say, let's meet here, let's do this, let's do that. And then, you know, actually it's not the relationship for you because you want someone who has some— something about them. So it's really important how your own previous patterns affect going forward with the next person. Another pattern which I think Jo was going to mention and had sort of touched on is the fact that sometimes you want like too much too soon because you've been hurt and you figure, I would just want them to message me tonight straight after the date, that kind of thing, where you're really desperate to have them, uh, show you attention and, and, and show you, uh, that, that you're worthy of their time. So again, that's kind of where you're expecting too much Hello darling! How did it go? I don't know what happened. We were just talking about people not contacting each other and not being in communication when you disappeared. I was just reiterating what you were saying about watching out for patterns of your own behavior. Yes. Because I think that's really important. And do you find when you're working with your clients that often they don't recognize that, say, they're going for the same type of person time and time again, or they're behaving like they need too much too soon time and time again, how do you— they don't recognize it. You need to lead them to a place where they do. It's, it's very difficult to tell them that this pattern is forming. It's almost like you need to plant that seed and get them to acknowledge, yeah, there is actually— there are similarities going on here, you're right. So they need to But I'm just gonna get to say, rudely interrupted about people not getting in touch for 8 or 9 days. I think that's where we lost each other. Yeah. And that, I mean, there's lots of dating terms for this— benching, breadcrumbing, you know, all these things where you're not really being paid any attention. Now, I think what people have to understand is that if you met somebody on an app And if you're not in a sexual relationship with them yet, they are very likely to be dating other people, and they can. It's okay. I think there's an assumption out there that once you've had a first date, then it's exclusive. Now, that certainly isn't how men generally tend to see it. They're like kids in a sweet shop. There's actually more choice for them than there are for— than there is for women. So I think they'll quite often date a few people, which might account for a few days' gaps in contacting you while they're kind of not making up their minds, but while they're, you know, enjoying multiple dates. Um, but I think 8 or 9 days, you know, after that, they've almost put you in that place that says, I'm in control, I'll contact you when I want to see you, and you're just either sitting around waiting for it, or you accept that's, that's your lot in life with that particular guy. And it's not acceptable. That isn't acceptable. Well, um, yeah, I mean, in America it's, um, much more that people play the field. They, they, they do multiple dating, they're upfront about it, and it's totally acceptable. Because why should you, after one date, necessarily close off any potential people you've been— also, if you're on a dating app or a dating website, or just you have a lot of friends and people are introducing you to people, whatever, And so I, I always find it hard, having spent my first 16 years in America, knowing that we have this attitude that it's okay to multiply date, and you, you're just open about it, you're not hiding it. Um, and then as things maybe progress, then you flag up that actually I'd quite like this to be exclusive, and you have that conversation. It seems to happen much more easily over the pond. It does. It's very different attitude. I mean, I think even when I've had clients who've been told openly, look, it's great meeting you, I definitely want to see you again, by the way, I am, you know, seeing, you know, and somebody else at the moment, they're mortified by it. I mean, they're absolutely— well, I know I've had them say, you know, I'm not going to see them again, why would I see them again? You know, they're dating somebody else. I mean, it— we do not have the acceptance here that that is okay. And I think we need it because it, you know, what, what could be a promising relationship is sort of knocked on its head really because you feel rejected. I think that's how people feel, or not good enough. And because women don't do it in the way that men do, that multiple dating, they, they take it quite personally. Whereas I think we need to kind of reevaluate that in the UK and say that's okay. Obviously when you get to a point when you're intimate, I think you have every right to say, you know, we've got to this stage, I, I'd like us to be exclusive. And we have sometimes have to have that conversation. It can't always be assumed, which is the other thing that people do. They make the assumption and then they're very disappointed when they find out that that's not the case. I think another red flag for me is probably if someone starts trying to control things early on when you've been, you know, on dates a few days, and then they're like No, no, I don't want to meet your friends. I want to do this with you. And, you know, oh no, you're not going to meet my friends. We're going to do this or that. You know, they kind of try and like box someone in. And that always worries me about maybe you're with someone who might have a controlling tendency. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think that's something to watch out for. It's what I call the compartmentalization effect, where they've put you in a place where there is no mingling with anyone that they know. Probably only come over to you, or you go to them. There may not even be any, you know, dating outside of each other's homes. So you're kind of almost like a— you, as you say, put in that box. Um, and that may be because they've got something to hide, or it may be because they are controlling by nature, and they're sort of— what they're doing is setting out their territory, setting out the parameters of your relationship according to their, their way of wanting to run it. Even running a relationship sounds a horrible thing to say. But yeah, I think control is quite insidious. I don't think people recognize that they are being controlled in— because men don't necessarily know that they're doing it. But if you feel manipulated, if you feel coerced, if you feel instinctively that may be going on, it probably is. Yeah, exactly. Now you've hit on the word I was going to say to you— instinct. I do still feel that we do not listen to our instinct early in dating, you know, we do not give it the power it should be given because it's there to, to tell us things like that. And the more experience we've got, the more we've dated, the better, in theory, our instinct should become. I think what people have is an instinct, not sure, which is okay, but they tend to overcompensate by overriding it, and then they quite often come back somewhere down the line saying, 'I knew there was something not quite right,' when something's gone wrong. So if you feel that, listen to it. Just hear it. It's there for a purpose. It's there to protect you. That's why we have instincts. So don't ignore them. I mean, by all means, give it a go and see if you can park them, but, but acknowledge that they're there for a very good reason and, and listen to them, as you say. We spent more time on red flags than I intended, but there's so many red flags we could talk about. Let's just quick go over things like, let's say people have got through the first 5, 6, 7 dates. They want to be exclusive. So many couples end up in unhappy relationships. What are some of the tips you would say to creating an emotionally healthy new relationship from the dating you've been doing with this person? I think you've got to both understand, you've got to tell each other what you want. Shared values is perhaps the most important thing of all. That, that sort of spells out everything else. So don't be backward in coming forward. Don't feel that you're being pushed if you say, yeah, eventually I do want children, or, um, this is the kind of lifestyle I want. I mean, that's really important. Don't, don't tread on eggshells around each other. If after 7 or 8 dates you don't feel you, you know somebody any better than you did after date 1 or 2, that probably isn't going to pan out for you well. Think of it as a friendship with, you know, uh, added benefits if you like. Um, you've got to really feel that person and you connect, um, beyond the bedroom, let's say. So I think that's important. And a lot of relationships stall around the 3-month mark. It's a sort of decision making time, are we going to carry— it could be casual up to then, and you're sort of making either an implicit or a spoken commitment of some sort. If that's not happening in any way and they just want to keep you just as it is, casually, again, and you're starting to get— people talk about it, say something. Don't just feel, because you'll start feeling resentful or anxious, and say it out loud. It's okay to say it. It doesn't make you needy, it just makes makes you honest and self-aware. So I think that again is a key thing. People are in sometimes too long in that first stage of a relationship when it should be progressing in some way. If you feel it isn't, call it out. Absolutely. Obviously wonderful advice from you as always, Jo. It's been fantastic having you. I can always talk to you longer. We're gonna have to get on the phone after this. Yes, thank you. I'm sorry We will see each other somewhere. No, it's undoubtedly only— and I just want to flag out that people can find you at joehemmings.co.uk and on Twitter @TVpsychologist. Lots of love, darling. Speak soon. Thank you. Now, last but not least, I'm delighted that my next guest can join me. He's Mr. George Ampat, FRCS, a consultant orthopedic surgeon who helped patients find non-surgical solutions to pain. He has a number of new books out, and one we're going to focus on today is a new book called Free From Pain: The Exercise Book. His website is ampat.co.uk, and he's also on social media, and I'm hoping that he will be here to join me now. Hello, Mr. Ampat. Hello, Pam. Lovely talking to you, and thanks for having me on your show. Yeah. Now, first off, I want to say, you know, a warm welcome. And as a consultant orthopedic surgeon, you must see people in extreme pain at times. I agree. I agree. And they are in extreme pain from arthritis or for musculoskeletal issues. But the most important thing is how we can help them naturally without resorting to surgical intervention or without resorting to pharmaceuticals. Pharmacological devices. We can give them painkillers. I mean, for instance, typically a patient has pain in January, you give them Tablet A, they come back 6 months later and say they still have pain, you give them Tablet A and Tablet B, they come back in 6 months later and say they still have pain, you give them Tablet A, Tablet B, and Tablet C. In that year, who benefited? The sufferer of pain or the shareholder of the company that makes the tablet? So we need to consider whether whether the tablets are the mechanism or what exactly can we use. Now, our human body has got a lot of mechanisms to handle pain, and exercise or activity is one big— and unfortunately we have lost it because we don't exercise enough. Yeah, well, I wanted to talk to you about that because I know from in my work as a psychologist and coach Sometimes I've had people who also have pain issues besides why they're talking to me, and a lot of them say, oh, I just get on the sofa or I get in bed. But from my understanding, movement, as long as your doctor approves of the movement, is beneficial if you're suffering. Movement is beneficial, and exercise and strengthening exercises to build up the muscles around the joints are very, very essential. And they are because that is when the joints are stabilized and there is no abnormal movement. Whereas the muscles are weak, there is obvious wobbliness of the joint. And when there is wobbliness of the joint, there is increased stress on the joint and increased wear and tear of the joint. It is as simple as we say, if the car tires, if the tires are nice and plump, there is no wobbliness in the car and the shock absorbers will last a lifetime. Time. But on the other hand, if you underinflate the tires and they are not fully inflated, as you drive the car, there is wobbliness in the car. And when there is wobbliness, that is taken— the stress is taken by the shock absorber, and they will have premature degeneration. So if we actually build our muscles up, our joints can withstand it. The— or such activity will increase the chance of arthritis. Evidence speaks otherwise. Actually, running and such other activities decrease the chance of arthritis, decrease the chance of hip and knee replacement, and also decrease the chance of other intervention for, you know, as you become old and have arthritis. Before we get on to your book and exercises and things, don't you find there's quite an individual difference in how people experience pain? And I would love to know why two people can say have a joint problem or have an accident and break a leg or whatever, why some person finds it unbearable and another person goes, oh, you know, it's pretty bad, but I'm healing. Well, is it only psychological, the difference, or are pain mechanisms different for each person? Pain mechanisms are different. So let me give you a simple physiology. I mean, when, say, for instance, if a needle pricked my finger, for that sensation to be recognized in the brain, the way it goes in our body is they have to go through 3 nerves. That is, the first nerve goes for the tip of my finger to just inside the spinal cord. Then there is a junction, then the impulse has to jump the junction. Then there is another nerve that takes from the— that's level of the spinal cord to the base of the brain. That is a second neuron. And then there is a third neuron which takes from the base of the brain to the outside of the brain. Now you would think it makes sense to have one one nerve and it'll be quicker. Why have these junctions? And in these junctions there are neurotransmitters which actually— technically there is a small bubble that bursts with the neurotransmitter. It goes on the next nerve that stimulates the next nerve. You may think it is inefficient, but actually the body has made it this way. And this is an evolutionary adaptation so that the signal can be modified. So when we talk of pain, we talk of the biopsychosocial model. So there is biology, there is psychology, there's also the social interaction which can, you know, comforts our pain. As you said, you said two different individuals, even the same individual, the pain can be different. Say for instance, today I'm going to get an award and a big boulder falls onto my foot, I will not experience the pain. But on the other hand, I've had a bad day, my wife has had a go at me, my daughter shouted at me, A little pebble falls on my toe and you don't know how painful it is. So it's not in two different individuals, in the same individual, the perception of pain can be completely different. So that's really interesting that it's kind of specific to context when people process pain. So if the context is a really good day, the pain might feel less. If it's a bad day, the pain might feel more, even if they physically have done the same amount of activity or something. Exactly, exactly, that is true. And what exercise does is exercise produces some, in very simple terms, some juices. The muscles produce a juice called myokines, and those myokines stimulate us, sometimes decreases the pain. And also in our brain, even for instance, they help exercises instead of crossword puzzles. Exercise prevents dementia because when you Exercise in the brain, there is a brain neurotropic factor secreted, and that prevents dementia, that prevents cognitive decline. But we don't understand that. Interesting. So when you are dealing with someone with pain, as an orthopedic surgeon, I don't know, is your specialty with arthritic pain or with fractures, or, or do you see all sorts people who are in pain? Mainly, I mean, I used to deal with fractures and mainly was the spine, but now mainly I deal with arthritic pain rather than acute fractures. In acute setting, you need painkillers because there is no doubt. It is in the chronic situation where dependence on opioids has to be decreased, when dependence on medicines have to be decreased. And unfortunately, people have this fixation that medicines or surgery is going to cure the pain. They don't cure the pain. And unfortunately, many of the surgeries actually may not make— may sometimes make you worse. If a spinal surgery— 1 in 5 spinal surgery fails and results in what is known as a failback surgery syndrome. One, I was going to say, after a sporting accident I had 10 years ago, both my shoulders were taken apart and put back together by Professor Emeritus Roger with Dr. Omri, who is an orthopedic surgeon you may or may not know. And really, the experience between just my two arms, the post-operative pain was very different. Right. I couldn't really explain it, but, you know, one arm seemed to have nerve pain coming down, you know, and the other arm wasn't, wasn't so bad, even though both shoulders had pretty much the same amount of operating, you know. So I think even as you said, I'm, I'm so interested in this thing about within one person you can have these varying levels of pain. So let me ask you about the medication side. So on the whole, can people become medication-free if they are doing the right exercise and things like that, or do you sometimes blend medication and exercise? Depends. I mean, what I mean, in an acute pain setting, that is sudden onset of pain, you will need medication. There is no way that medication— without medication you can get that acute pain. But when there is chronic pain, you need to do the exercise and some amount of pain you may need to accept it. There is, and unfortunately there is no evidence that multiple opioids or multiple medication actually makes them pain free and back to activity. There is no evidence. That is a myth. And technically, it may be a myth that has been promoted by pharma companies. And actually, people, you may get addicted to these medications and cause more problems from that addiction rather than, you know, make them free from their ailments. Yeah. So what— how— what exercise is best? Let's just take someone with, say, arthritic pain. What should they start doing? If they've been like some of the clients I've spoken to say, oh, I just, when I've had a bad pain day, I just go to bed. I mean, what should they actually do? So technically, what we suggest is the isometric exercises or strengthening exercises. So stretching, there is no evidence that stretching actually takes the pain away. There may be some evidence that actually stretching may increase the pain and compliance decreases. Say, for instance, if I have neck pain and if someone tells me, okay, you need to turn your neck to the left or the right, and if you do that, you are actually irritating the pain fibers and increasing the pain. On the other hand, if you do strengthening exercise, say, for instance, you're tilting the head to the side and you're preventing that movement, you're strengthening the muscles on the side of the neck. By doing and strengthening the muscles around around the neck, you're preventing the pain. And so strengthening exercise, the isometric exercise, the main sort of pain exercises they need to do for pain. And so for the hip and the knee, the best way to exercise would be to have ankle weights on there, you know, so that gives them an extra strength and then build up, but not to do it too much too soon. I tell my patients, okay, you're watching TV for 3 or 4 hours in the evening. Put the ankle weights and every 15 minutes stop the TV or when the adverts are on, do exercises, 5 repetitions. So over an hour, if there are adverts for 4 times, you're doing 20 repetitions. Over 3 hours you're doing 60 repetitions and then it doesn't hurt. If you do all the 60 together, it becomes more painful. So spreading it out little but often, it is— people should follow what is that, what when they drive, they're very careful driving their car. But they don't seem to follow the same principles when they are, you know, have pain. When they drive the car, when it is on amber, they slow down. When it is red, they stop. They never go through the red. And when it is green, they start driving. And we must understand that traffic signal is our inner brain. If there is no pain or less pain, you should do the exercise. When you're noticing discomfort, you should slow down. And when there is red or when it is painful, you should not Good at all. How do you feel? So someone comes to the red light and they've been doing some isometrics, as you say, to strengthen their knee or the hip. What about heat or cold treatment, like a heat pack, cold pack? Do you advocate any of those things? No, all those is helpful. I mean, there are many methods because as you said, you are trying to stimulate the gateway theory of pain. So the gateway theory is is there is only— it's like a door in a room. If there is a door in a room, only one person can go through the room through the door at any point. There can't be two people going through the door. So same way, pain, the fibers that take to the brain. So if that fiber is occupied by something else, so if you put a cold compression, what happens is the cold sensation goes. And because the cold sensation is going, the pain sensation is not being sent. So that is how you find relief. The same thing when you put any mentholated rub, you are sending those mentholated, you know, that vapors provide a sensation which goes through the pain fibers and that dulls the pain. It's not that the pain is gone. It is just you're manipulating the pain pathway. We don't have a lot of time left. This is fascinating. I wish we had longer. Where can people find your book? Free From Pain? Is it your website or Amazon? Or so they can find it on Amazon, they can find it on my website, or also they can, you know, there is a Free From Pain website itself, freefrompain.org.uk, or my own website, ampad.co.uk, or otherwise on Amazon. Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry, I didn't know about your Free From Pain website. I have to put some clients in touch with that. Yeah, I'll check that out too. Does it pretty much have the same information as on ampat.co.uk? Yes, the same information. Yes. Yeah. Well, I really appreciate your time today, and I know it looks like you're at the NHS right now or something. Yes. But thank you so much for your time, Mr. Empath. Thank you, Dr. Spurr. Thank you for taking me on. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Have a lovely day. Thank you. Bye-bye. So please do check out Mr. George AMPAT, the freefrompain.org website, and hisampat.co.uk. I'll be back in a fortnight. Of course, the show is repeated as a radio show on Friday at 4 PM. If you're joining me now, uh, thank you so much for your time, and I look forward to our next show together. And take care of yourself until then.