Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Jay James, Andy West, Anthea Turner

Are you feeling anxious? Online therapy 24. 7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207-5535080 and check out our website on onlinetherapy247.com I'm Dr. Pam Spurr and you're joining me for trending with Dr. Pam. Every fortnight I look at the stories that matter to you. The politicians and the celebrities may make the trends, but we dig deep and find out how they matter to our lives. Now, today, as always, I have a fantastic selection of guests coming up. I've got Jay James. You may have seen him on the X Factor back in 2014. And now a member of the Overtones, followed by AJ west or My friend Andy. He's now gearing up to have his historical novel published. And then Anthea Turner. We're going to be catching up with her and her news and also we'll be finding out what, what she has to say about divorce because divorce statistics are rising and she wrote a book about it. Now, I'm so delighted to welcome my first guest, Jay James. I'm not quite sure if he's there. Yeah. Can you hear me? Okay. How are you doing? I'm really well. I just had a little bit of a technical issue at the very start there. But now I can see you. You can see me, you can hear me. We just needed to put a sound on the meter. Now, Jay, I want to introduce you as, of course, part of the multi platinum selling group the overtones, radio and TV presenter. And also, of course, you're in the final eight of the X Factor back in 2014. I want to tell people they can find you on Twitter and Instagrames. So how are you? I'm wonderful, Dr. Pam. Yeah, it's wonderful to join you. I tell you what, it's very. I've just noticed in the background there, you've got some wonderful pictures and I too have got a wonderful picture at the back. And I'd just like to introduce. Oh, hang on a minute. The one I sent you, one of my little art gifts that I create. Yes. That people can get on my website. Thank you for the plug. This is the seventh piece to a thousand that made up one of those lovely paintings that you've got in the background. And I greatly appreciated it. I felt very special. So from VP and I thank you so much. Thank you, darling. Now, I want to ask you, first off, last time I spoke to you a couple weeks ago, you had a lovely tash. What's happened to it? I did. You know what? I had a fair amount of stick for that tash. Not, not. Not just from. Not just from, from social media and, and all of the toner fans and stuff like that, but actually more from my wife and my kids. They kept on rumbling that every time I gave them a smooch and a kiss, it was tickling them. So I. I sort of. Unfortunately, I've had to get rid of the Tasha. And I'm sure your wife didn't want that razor burn, or what do they call it, the. You know, the sort of rawness that you get when you've been kissing with someone with a tash. I mean, it was a. It was a kiss. No, no. Free zone for a while, Dr. P. And I couldn't have. I couldn't have that. You know what I mean? No, of course not. Now, how have you. You know, we're going to be talking about the trending topics, but I kind of want to get into the Overtones and how you joined them and tell. Tell me a little bit about that story. I mean, look, we've probably not got all day, but to summarize it, I. I've known the lads for a long, long time. Well, easily well over 10 years, to be honest with you. We were part of a. The Samaritan's charity record, Songs To Save A Life, many moons ago, and that's where we first met. I was signed to Deca Records on Universal and the boys were with Warners and loads of other people took part in that campaign. Katie Tunstall, James Morrison, loads of other great, great people. And, you know, that's when I first, you know, came to know about the Overtones. And we were actually working with the same musical director at the time, Cardwell, who's an amazing guy. And then we've kind of stayed in touch over the last 10 years, really. And then off the X Factor in 2014, I sort of, you know, just got all of my things together. I sort of broke into broadcasting, but then kept on, obviously, releasing and doing bits and bobs with, with my own music. And I ended up going to special guests for the Boys on a number of different shows. And that's then fell in love with, with, with the toners. Because, you know, of course the Overtones is, you know, it's. It's like a family. I mean, you've been shows, Pam. It's, you know, huge, huge toners, family and of course I fell in love and ultimately last year, you know, the boys, you know, asked if I'd be up for joining the clan. And to be honest, it feels like everything that I've been through over the last 10 years, both in music and life, has kind of brought me to this moment. So I'm incredibly proud to be part of the Overtones and I consider the boys very much like brothers. So yeah, we've had a whale of a time. I was going to say you and I have talked about before about how music is so good for the soul and I know, you know, you've had your ups and downs in life and you've been honest about those, but I guess, you know, you're singing and your music kind of keeps you going and this show, we always often touch on well being and mental health. I mean, how much impact does music have, say for your well being? It's huge. It's absolutely huge. And it's, you know, it's a. Music is like medicine for. And you know, for lots of different people. And you know, they say music speaks in so many different ways, it connects different languages and different people, but, but also it heals, you know, and often enough you, you know, if you're feeling a little bit blue, you stick on a little bit of Bill Withers or whatever else and you know, you'll feel a different perspective on life. And that's certainly one thing that does for me and I know it does for the boys as well. And we've just started to put together a weekly Feel Good playlist actually on the overtone Spotify, which is just loads of different other artists and groups and songs that make us feel happy, you know, because obviously, as you know, Dr. Pam, right now, you know, we're faced with something that we've never really been in before. So, you know, mental health and talking about mental, mental fitness, more importantly, I think and how we exercise that and how we exercise those feel good hormones and how we put ourselves in a place of positivity, the best and fastest way we possibly can is so important. I cannot wait to get to an Overtones gig when you're back playing live. Have you got any socially distanced gigs coming up? You know what, it's obviously been really, really, really tricky. We, we managed to, to, to be let out the cage a little earlier on as part of a government trial, you know, a couple of months back. And again we just felt so privileged to be able to Try that. It worked on a. On an outside situation where it was kind of like a small percentage were allowed in to come and see. And then, yeah, we did another show and then the other small percentage, of course, will socially distance and it was just. Honestly, it was so good for our souls. We've been out of live music and. And for us, obviously, a lot of people who watch say, oh, we love it and we need it, but equally for us, we need to do it, we need to perform and we need to have that connection. So we're mega excited about as soon as we possibly can to get and do more live shows. There was obviously live shows due for December. We don't know what's happening right now, so we're waiting to hear on that, but. But hopefully soon to come we'll be able to announce some exciting things. And that's when I last saw the Overtones, was last December. I went along with. With your better half. I'm going to call her your better half. We had so much fun dancing in the aisles and you've had a group of family and friends there. Now listen, we're going to play a little, Little clip. I think we've got a clip of some music of the Overtones. You can hear everything. Have we got it? Is it working pound in meter No. I know you're close to me it seems so far apart maybe given time you'll have a change oh, if it takes forever, girl When I'm compared to. I wanted you to start bursting into song there, Jay. Come on. I'm a little bit rusty. Dr. P, that was, you know, that song means a lot to us, really, because we released that. We released the live version during the summer and. And right in the middle of the pandemic where, you know, a lot of people were feeling a little bit blue, ourselves included. And again, to sort of just shine back onto the tour back at Christmas where that was performed in many ways, like, everyone's kept us going and we've all kept each other going, you know, through different things that we've been doing. As you know, you joined us on the Sunday Social last week, a social show that we do on Facebook from 8 o'. Clock. And, you know, we've really enjoyed that. And so what we decided to do was actually release that version. You to me are everything. And that was kind of a no to the fans. And we ended up putting it out on social media and a large majority of our fans recorded videos dancing along and all that. That's cool. And we put it out There. And, and, and so you can go and check that on the overtones YouTube, that official video with. With all of the fans starring in, in, in. In the video. And so it's really great. But, you know, that's what we do. We feel good music and we're mega excited about bringing back that feel good in 2021. That's what we're looking to do. Well, I promise you, I will not send you a video of me dancing to it. You wouldn't want to see that. I see those snake hips in the aisles before. Now I want to sort of run past some of the trending things have been trending recently, like on Twitter. And the first one, of course, is Wayne Lineker was trending because he's joined Celebs Go Dating, and people were comparing him to Gary the Saint Linacre, of course. And it made me think about, you know, I don't really want to talk about them as, you know, family members, but it made me think about how many families. This becomes an issue where there's one, like really good brother or sister, and then there's another where they get labeled like they're the. They're the one. Never do. Well, they're the, you know, the person who always gets in trouble. Now imagine you were the troublemaker in your family. Do you know what? It's so interesting, and it's a cracking debate because it's so true, because you kind of highlighted something there where I think we. We've all been in that situation where if we've got a sibling or someone else in the family that we're close to, they get. It's a stereotype, isn't it? It's a. It's an absolute stereotype based on maybe an experience or an occasion where someone's acted out or they've done something good, and then it's like, oh, he's the good one and he's the bad one, or he's a cheeky one and he's this. And it's so dangerous. Where were you? Where were you in that spectrum? I was a really. I was a. I was a cheeky boy, but I was a good boy. You know, my. My sister kind of paved the way before me because she was a bit of a troublemaker and she was as hard as nails. So growing up as the. The younger brother, I didn't actually need to do anything because everyone was petrified of my sister. So. So, you know, it was all good. But again, it's so. It's so interesting because again, I, I'D probably those types of stereotypes. I, I'd really just, you know, I've got a, a son who's, who's, you know, 19 months old and a daughter who's 7. 7 years old. And, and they're both little cheeky chappies. They're both little cheeky things. But again, I, I would definitely avoid sort of labeling them, oh, he's an angel and she's a tear away or. Because I think, I think, you know, not to go deep on this, but I think those types of stereotypes we've got to get away from. Do you know what I mean? 20, 20. And, and those, those types of stereotypes, no one should be stereotyped in this day of age. Everyone should be free to be themselves. Exactly. And particularly in a family where, you know, you grew up in that family and you, and then you feel what happens. Jay is, I know as a psychologist, people live up to the expectation of their role. You know, say the first 10 years of a little boy's life, he's, you know, called the troublemaker and the tearaway. You know, he comes to fulfill that expectation. And I'm always encouraging families to break free of those kind of roles that you're kind of given. I was the baby of my family, so basically I could get away with anything. And that's really wasn't fair on my older brothers, you know, but that's just the way it was. But we've all learned, thankfully, within my family that we don't, you know, put those roles on each other now, now that we're all grown. So I think for, yeah, it's a really tough thing for parents not to kind of just highlight one trait, but they need to really resist. Like, you're the clever one. Oh, don't worry, you're not so clever. But, you know, you don't have to be like your clever brother or sister. That's a really, really bad one, too, but isn't. You know, the thing is why I think this debate is so interesting because it's almost a magnified version of society, like, you know what I mean? And it's something that we all do and, and, you know, dare I hark on about the X Factor and, and reality shows in general, but they pigeonhole a narrative based around a stereotype, a character, and then basically what people do is they, they, they, they, they kind of connect or relate to that character that's on TV that maybe, maybe not really be what that person is or who that person is. And it's really, it's It's a, it's dangerous because as you say, people, you know, you kind of often lose yourself and in a moment where, as. As you. You preach so rightly, where mental fitness is so important and, and where there's so many things to be, you know, influenced by and inspired by and stuff like that in a positive way as well. We've got to be really aware of. Of encouraging and motivating individuals to find who they are. Who they are, exactly who they are, or who we think they are. Yeah. Because when I was seeing this, you know, on. On. On on Twitter recently about, you know, the, the lineakers, I was thinking, you know, can Wayne be all bad? Is he always the one who's done. Done wrong? And, and you think no, because no one is, you know. Well, very few people are all bad or all cheeky or whatever, you know. So, yeah, I think it's. It's really important that people kind of try and break free. But it can be hard to break free from how we see people, but especially in families, try and break free those roles. And parents really beware not to cast their children, you know, like a play. And then that child always has to play that role. Well, listen, there's something else I want to run past you, and that is, of course, the budget. And Rishi Sunak has been in the news forever, it seems, but it makes me think about money and couples because one of the three main causes that lead to breakups and divorce are money arguments. You know, people who just. They get married, they love each other, but they have totally different views of money. And that's a really hard thing to. Again, to break free of how you've gotten used to spending or whether you're really, really, you know, really a saver. And I just wondered, have you ever seen that, like, in any of your friends? I mean, I'm going to ask you about you and your other half, but, yeah, completely. It's, you know, it's such a, such a tricky one with, with money, isn't it? Because it's an important thing. I'd say firstly that me and Victoria are both terrible. You're equally bad with money. Equally bad with money. But yeah, I sort of, obviously with my military background, I kind of like, steady the ship and go, okay, stop. You know, I love it. Grab a handle here and take charge. Because obviously you put a military, you know, naval suit when you do that, when you say stop. She often likes me. I was gonna say that's gonna create fantasies in all your fans. But no, it you know, it's one of those things. I. I mean, you know, as couples, what we do is we. We, you know, we join each other as a team, don't we? And we. We sort of utilize our strengths to. To maybe combat what. What the other ones maybe not as good at. And, And I think, you know, you identify the roles in which you're good at, and then you take charge on that. You do that, you look after that, and you rein us in when we get too bad at it. And equally, it's like parenting for me. Do you know, I mean, I'm off kind of working quite a lot. And then Victoria is, you know, just phenomenal, is kind of picks up the parents inside of stuff and, and leads the. Leads the way with that. And I kind of. I'm free to be stupid, dad, you know, but it, you know, you just pick up maybe what the other one is not as good at, and then you kind of, you know, and so it's a difficult with money and financial pressures are so difficult. And, well, right now, to the financial pressures people are under and to then be rowing about it, too. It's really tough. It is. And, you know, you can. I think you can overcomplicate money so, so much. I mean, I think we all do it. You know, you can overcomplicate it, and I think you've just got to simplify it. Yeah. I've been in a situation back when I was in the Navy and stuff where I was like, oh, my God, like, where. What am I doing with. With money? And I was in a privileged situation where I was paid every single month and all that sort of stuff, you know, in the military. And, you know, you take those things for granted. But ultimately, if financial, if. If those issues are really affecting you, sit down at the dinner table, sit down on the sofa, lay it all out in front of you and go, okay, how in the simplest way, can we manage our money so we both understand what's going on and how can we help it? Because they're the foundations in which you live off. People say money makes the world go round. And it's not. It's all about happiness. Of course it is, but you have to. You have to know how you're going to live and how you're going to survive and thrive. First of all, I always say to a couple, you know, think in ink, and as you say, sit down, get your incomings and your outgoings and look if there's any left. And then this is what I tell couples where, if one person is a saver. And one person loves to spend, spend, spend. Look at what you have left and split it in half. Half goes into savings and then half you guys agree what you're going to spend it on. But it's just about that kind of compromise which can make all the difference to arguments and, and equally, equally in the opposite way as well, Pam, you know, writing that stuff down, you know, when you both get carried away or you don't, or, or you haven't got the income that's you're usually getting in, you know, rightly to this situation by writing everything down and getting those numbers down on paper, you can go, we're well overspending money that we haven't got here and we need to try and make some cutbacks. We need to budget. And ultimately that comes back to what you' right, to budget, to set a really simple budget to go, okay, we need to buy food and we need to pay for the heating. How much have we got towards that? And you know, those budgets, those margins can be worked up, but they have to be done on a simple level, you know. Yeah, I think that's true and I hope people will take that away if they've been, you know, arguing about money. We have a real emotional attachment to our monetary style. You know, as a psychologist, I know we, we bring what, what our parents taught us about money and parents might have argued about money. So maybe that's your role model. But if you can just as do what we say, practically split it up into incomings, outgoings and as you say, look at what's there and people can solve these sort of problems if they, if they both really want to. Hey, now, this is, you know, something, it's Thanksgiving, the time of Thanksgiving and of course, you know, America and, and Canada celebrates it. So I also wanted to ask you about how you feel, because I kind of feel often on social media I see people complaining about the smallest thing, the tiniest sort of thing. Everyone complains about everything. It can be so negative and draining at times. And I kind of think have we become a culture where we just expect everything 247 if delivery slightly late? We forget about the battle days where it took three weeks in the slow, you know, post to get to us and whatever. And I just think it'd be more important if people would actually look at what's good on that day than what's bad that's happened. You know, these little niggly things that we all have. I mean, I don't know if you've Been struck like that? Yeah, all the time. All the time. You know, I think, you know, many, many people who might be tuned in, you know, would notice I'm not on social media as much as I was because I think in social media you get let in to everybody's world and everybody's worlds of problems and things like that, which is a really selfish thing to say, by the way. But ultimately what you need to do firstly is protect yourself. And there's been so many buzzwords and talk about again coming back around to mindfulness and mental fitness and stuff like that that you need to try and protect yourself and practice gratitude. Now I think, Pam, that gratitude was. If you had said that, you know, in, in a certain way last year, gratitude may have been inclined as almost a bit of a hippie word. And, and, you know, I don't think it is anymore. I think everybody now is becoming to a realization that we need to practice gratitude. We need to practice every single morning, every day the things, our blessings, what we should be grateful for. And that in itself will help help our mental health and help our mental fitness and how we go about the day in a positive manner. Like, it's weird, I used to wake up in the morning, look straight at my mobile phone, let the world in and you know what, into your bedroom. And you know, Victoria was like, oh, babe, we've got to stop, we've got to stop doing that first thing in the morning and last thing at night. And you know, we were chatting, it was like the first thing we do when we open our eyes and say good morning. We get on the phone, go on social media and then we essentially let near on half a million people into our bedroom and say, look, I've got this problem. Very big swingers party. Darling Morgan, say it. Have you seen such and such. I don't hear that noise. I don't want to hear that noise. And unfortunately, that sort of noise also drowns out the beautiful, wonderful side of social media, which is the reason everybody first joined in and connected and that was through connecting with people in a wonderful way. So I think you're totally right. I love, you know, I love the American way of seeing life. I think as Brits, we're often very cynical of life. We're looking to, you know, pull that person down off a pedestal or pull, pull that. That's very true with the British media, isn't it? Yeah, it's so frustrating. And you know, people talk about, you know, bad news is, is. Is worth 10, 20 times the click value of Something good. And that's so, so unfortunate. So I think, yeah, if we can be as positive as we possibly can be with each other and things that we put on socials, the, the better, better world we're going to live in for our children as well. I don't want my daughter and son to be going on social media and seeing, seeing, you know, everybody's, everybody's opinions and stuff like that. It's such a difficult balance. You want to protect them for as long as possible. Listen, it's been amazing chatting. Evidently we've had a lot of comments and my producer is going to start feeding them through. But I can talk to you. I hope you'll come back again soon because I could talk all day with you and I'm mindful of the happiness you bring when you come on the shows that we've been on before. So people can find you, of course, as I said, on Instagram and Twitter, ajames. And you're a member of the multi platinum selling group the Overtones. And they must look out for the Overtones. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jay, and give my love to the family, Pam, it's always an absolute pleasure. Sunday Social and I'll see you very soon, my love. Okay, thank you, darling. Now, I'm delighted that we know we have been getting a lot of comments through. I have, I haven't seen them myself yet, but thank you for any, to anybody who has been posting comments and I'll get to them in a bit. But next, I'm delighted that to be joined by AJ or Andy, as a lot of people know him, AJ west, who's a debut novelist, broadcaster and voiceover artist. Now you can find Andy on Twitter, Andy West TV and on Instagram. J. West author. And we're going to be hearing about his forthcoming historical novel the Spirit Engineer. And I'm really looking forward to him joining me here any moment now. And here he comes. Hello. And Christmas tree is amazing. You have no idea. It's just I'm very much less is more. You know that about me. Look at that. I love it, I love it. It's beautiful. We haven't put ours up yet, but. Because of course, we like to get through Thanksgiving first. But it's stunning. Now, Andy, you know, we, we've, we, we chat and we, and we message, you know, but we haven't done a radio together for ages. And I'm so excited that actually we can hear about the Spirit Engineer today, your debut historical novel. So before we get into that, I Just want to remind people that they might have originally seen you as a BBC sort of journalist and then on Big Brother and you know, your broadcaster. And so people have seen you do all sorts of things, but now the novel, and I have to ask you. Yes. Have you found people saying things like, oh, but you're writing a novel, but you're. You're from Big Brother or you're. You're a radio host. Do people pigeonhole you? Or is that journalists? Do people like you do pan. Yes. And journalists and irksome people like that. No, I mean, like people who follow me from Big Brother just love it because they. They like to see people that they've watched on programs still doing stuff and still being active because it's very easy, I think, once you're off a program like Big Brother to. To disappear because real life starts. It's over. Yeah. So. No, but I. The publisher was interested and I don't. I think I can say this with confidence. I am probably. I've got to be the first and only Big Brother housemate to be a published historical fiction novelist. I would. You've got to be. There's no one else doing that. I would go as far as to say I might be the first ever Big Brother housemate to actually write their own book at all. I could believe that. We will give you that accolade for sure. They don't write their own books. My old agent used to write all their books for them. For all the reader. How many stars. And the reason why I ask you about the pigeonholing is because I've had this issue with, as a psychologist and life coach and people saying, you know, when I started painting and got sort of open about it, like, January this year. Thank you. You were one of the first to really encourage me. You unleashed it. And people say, oh, what, you're a painter now, too? And it's kind of like, well, why can't people be more than one thing? This is no longer a career for a lifetime. People do not go to work like in the 1950s and stay at the same desk for 50 years. And so it's really astounded how readily we are as a culture to just say, oh, that's not you. No, you fit in that box. But I gather you really haven't experienced that. Well, I don't know. Have I experienced that? I'm trying to think. No one said that to me, but there might be people, I think maybe because I was a journalist before and of course that's being a writer and There's a long tradition of journalists becoming authors, so there were loads of people after the program who are like, oh, you should, you know, you should present this and you should do that. And I still get today those messages on social media saying, like, they've just got Dermot and Alison Hammond, haven't they, presenting this morning? I said, oh, well, they'll be looking for a replacement for Alison Hammond. Why don't you give them a call? Like, TV works like that. I'm like, if it was that simple. And also, I'm not sure I'd be any good at that job. Right. Alison has to be very nice to some really stupid people. So I'm just not. Not qualified. But I'm qualified as a writer. And I think that the people who like me, in spite of saying silly things like I just said, understand that it's quite natural that I'm an author. So, no, not really. And the interesting thing about the book that I'm writing is that it's based on a true life story. Yes. And the character in it. I didn't realize when I started writing the book, but the character in it is. Had a kind of similar experience to me. It's almost autobiographical. And for you, as someone who has supported me, actually, with, you know, in your. With your expertise as a therapist as well as, you know, as a psychologist, you know that the process I went through after Big Brother was not an easy one. Yeah, no, I know. And you've done so well to come out kind of how you are now. It was pretty horrible watching you in there. I just immediately took to you and I felt, he's too smart to be in there, if you know what I mean. Academically. Academically. The thing about. The thing about Big Brother is it really shines a light on people's behavior and it showed me that there were some very clever people on there. They didn't know very much, but they were very clever in the way that they manipulated. Exactly. Those With a Machiavellian streak. Exactly, yeah. Which I envy, actually. I'm a bit too. I'm. I'm a bit too dumb. Sometimes I think, why did I do that? That was really stupid. We can all look back at some. I can look back at my whole life and go, hey, I've done this a lot. Really a lot of stupid things. But now. So tell me about. So it's about William Crawford. I was having a look. Tell us about this story. Because when you first started telling me about it, I just absolutely was gripped. It's. Yeah, it's a phenomenal story. I was working as a BBC newsreader in Northern Ireland when I came across it. I was reading Harry Houdini's personal diaries. And for those who don't know, Houdini did a lot of kind of breaking out of chains and, you know, getting trapped in barrels and things. But he actually spent most of his career uncovering fake spiritual mediums. People who were pretending they could speak to ghosts and then they couldn't. Turned out they were using fake shoes or they were using special lifting techniques or glow in the dark things. And so reading his diary was fascinating. Then about halfway through, I found this amazing story of a guy in Belfast who had been investigating a spiritual medium in Harry Houdini's time. Harry Houdini had met him and he had decided this guy was mad. At the same time, the author of the Sherlock Holmes novels, Arthur Conan Doyle, had also met him and had decided, because he was a spiritualist, had decided that this guy was amazing and had uncovered the truth. Wow. And it ends tragically because William Jackson Crawford was a very highly respected guy. And this is why, this is why I feel like there's a mirroring of part of my experience when I, for those who don't know, I left the BBC and then ended up in Big Brother. He was a very highly. That's so unprofessional. I'm sorry. Left the movie. He, he, he, he was investigating the spiritual medium and Harry Houdini says that he found out he had been fooled by the spiritual medium. Arthur Conan Doyle says he realized that the afterlife existed. But either way, this guy took his own life. And I won't go into detail how because it's not appropriate, but he, he took his own life in very, very sad circumstances. And so it's a mystery novel really as to, well, were the seances real? What did he find out? What did he know? And if the seances were real and the ghosts weren't real, who was the person making it all up? So it's a little bit like, almost like an Agatha Christie esque murder mystery. And instead of a murder, you've got ghosts. This is incredible. I love the fact that it's linked in history to other people that we know of, you know, Houdini, Arthur Conan Doyle, and that it's looking at human experience that goes beyond what we experience. It has all the elements of just drawing, you know, I'm, I'm drawn in. I can't wait till it's, it's published next year. What do you feel you say it, you know, you happened upon this when you were in Ireland. Yes. Is that correct? Yeah. So was it sort of one of those moments where you just go, oh, my gosh, I'm doing this. I'm taking this story and I'm running with it, or was it kind of a slow process of, you know, it kind of played in your mind what this could mean, what. How this could be written? How did it evolve like that? I never thought when I was a little boy, I knew then that what I wanted to be was a published author. But then when I started in my career as a BBC journalist, I guess I made peace with the fact that that was unlikely to happen until I was maybe much older. So, in a way, getting kicked out of the BBC and then doing Big Brother and then finding myself with time, not with much money and with zero security, but with time. And. And so actually, I thought, I need to do something positive with this. And I plowed that time into writing this book and to. To have a publisher, a really amazing publisher, by the way, Pam called Duckworth. It's a small publisher, but it's been around for 120 years. And they've published Zadie Smith, Disraeli, D.H. lawrence, some of the biggest British authors there have ever been, is just so exciting. And it happened not because. Not because I was on telly or because I was a journalist or anything like that. It was in what they call the slush pile. And what does slushpile mean? Just so slush pile is if you don't have an agent, but you're a novel yourself, it means it goes in there. Well, we'll read that if we've got nothing better to do. Pile. And I really kind of pestered the guy who I had a contact with just via Twitter. I just followed him on Twitter and he followed me back and I just said, please, please, please read it. And he said, actually, I've never found anything I've liked in the slush pile in my entire career, but I really, really love this, and I think that's. You're the slush pile star. They do. It's a thing in the literary world, finding the diamond in the slush pile. But since I'm on the men's radio station, what really resonated with him, and I think will resonate with men who read it, is that this is a deeply flawed character. He's a chauvinist. He's a man of his time, early 1900s, but he is haunted by not just these ghosts, but by I think his own feelings of inadequacy and failure and that drives him towards following this extremely eccentric path that in the end is his ruin. And that's why I feel it resonates with me because I've spent a lot of my life worrying about failure and am I doing enough and am I achieving? And it ca, it can cause you to take really reckless decisions. And I think in a society that expects guys to be kind of these hard hitting, know what they want. Yeah, we haven't got a clue. Like the idea that I've spoken to extremely powerful men who are hugely successful in seven figure salaries and they're still going, I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing. It's that kind of, you know that when you feel a bit like a fraud, when you've had some success but kind of like people then think oh wow, they're really successful, but then you feel in yourself you're not that successful. It's an unusual cycle that I think certain people get caught up in what I want to tap into something you said when this all came about the origins of your novel. You were saying you had little cash, you know, little going on in your life, feeling quite insecure. So a lot of people that will resonate right now how they're feeling lost jobs, pay cuts, disconnected. What motivated you to get going? Because how did you find that determination? Because that's a really key thing. Well, I think, I think if there's something you're passionate about, then you'll find yourself doing it in one way or another anyway. And so I think, I think giving yourself permission to do something that when you wake up in the morning you think I really want to do that today. Permission to just do it. Which sounds silly, but I think a lot of people don't think, well no, I've got to do all of these other things first. If you're really passionate about something, you will be happier in a few years if you've allowed yourself to do that. The most frightening thing I had when I had no job and no home, really no relationship and not really much of a support network, I had to. I was there for you. You were but you know, it's an early friendship and you know what I mean. But you're absolutely right, you were. I was lucky because I had, I guess, parents who I knew if I needed to move back in with my mum. In fact I did for a couple of weeks when I started writing, writing the book. But I think that was it. It's very easy to Catastrophize in your own head. And I was thinking, oh, my gosh, everything's over, everything's over. What am I going to do? I had this weird situation where I would go outside to the shops or something and people would be coming up saying, can I have a photograph? And how are you? And, you know, is everything amazing? And then I'd be thinking, no, it's not amazing. It's complete nightmare. That cognitive dissonance between what people are telling you and what you're feeling. Oh, it was just an interesting situation. Yeah. And. But what I relied on was I thought, are things going to get so bad? This is going to sound so cataclysmic. Right. But I hope it's okay to say this on your live show. Are things going to get so bad that I die? And I would say, no, they're not going to get so bad that you die. And that's not something you're going to think about. Yeah. So. So. So you're going to be alive and will there be nice things if you're alive in 20 years? Yes, there will definitely be nice things. So actually, what am I worried about? And. And I just. I had to get that literal before I could switch off the worries. As long as I allowed myself to catastrophize and think, it was all over. I couldn't cope. But as soon as I had the reassurance that I knew I would be okay, then I wasn't frightened anymore. And so I took the time I needed to get this going. It is reframing how you think isn't is about taking the one frame where you are catastrophizing and you're wasting so much emotional energy fueling those catastrophizing sort of thoughts or thinking. And you take a different frame and go, there is a bit of optimism in this frame. I'm going to start thinking like this. And I think that's so important for, like, the sort of shows that we do here on the men's and women's radio station, to hear your story and be able to show people that you can reframe how you think. It doesn't mean every day is going to be great and everybody's going to be without anxiety or whatever for so many people. But, you know, it's one way of looking at it. So when is the book out? So the book is set for October next year, so it feels like a long time away, but it's not going to be. I just hope by that point I can actually go into Bookshops and sign books and meet people and talk to people. You sign my book? Absolutely. Do you know I'm talking about you? I don't know if I meant to say this. I'll sign any book books, Dr. Pam, you know that I, I meant to say this, but I, I think they're only going to send me like is it five or ten copies that I'm allowed? It's ten authors copies, yeah. Ten, right. I thought I'd get like a box of fifty or something so they're never that generous. I've written fifteen books, trust me, I know. Fifteen self help books? Yes. I've only read twelve of them, so. Well, you're, I'm offended. You've got three more to read. I love the idea of being a published author. It must be amazing feeling you'll have to tell. It is. And I, I've been, you know, thinking up other books to write myself. In the self help genre of course, not the historical novel. You don't have any competition there, darling, from me. But. Well, listen, one last question before I let you go and that is, you know, you've experienced lockdown. As a, you know, married man here in London, are you looking forward to a little bit more freedoms or have you relished lockdown? I mean, what's your standing on that? I mean, I think I know, but I want you to tell people, no, I've not relished it. I think, I think, I think, I think there's a possibility in 10 years time we'll look back and realize that we might have lost our perspective a little bit on the impact that our actions are going to take on, on people's lives and livelihoods and people's health. And I think it's a shame that so many people have lost so much when I, I would argue we probably could have protected those at risk in a different way. But no, I've found it. Look, I found it easy in the sense that I've got a nice place to live in, a nice part of London and I can go for a walk around a park, but I feel really bad for people who actually haven't got that and who have found it really lonely. I've got a lot of single friends who've struggled. I have some single friends who've found it hard. Well, Andy, I'm gonna make sure you come back next year near to when your book comes out and thank you so much for Jo. Me and people can find you on Instagram. AJ West AUTHOR and on Twitter, of course. Andy west tv because you've got both strings to your bows and more and lots of love to you, darling. Speak soon. Okay, you take care. Bye, darling. So that was wonderful to hear from Andy and I'm so delighted that my next guest is ready to go. She is Anthea Turner, TV personality. I think of her as that all round sort of glamorous dynamo. She's always going from like, project to project. She has so many things that she's done and is doing. You can find her on twitter@Anthea Turner1 and on Instagram ntheaterner and her website is Anthea Turner.com and I believe she's ready to join me now. Hello, Anthea. Hello there, Pam. Can you hear me? I can hear you under my stairs. Why under your stairs? Well, it's the place in the house. And I discovered this. I did something for Steve Wright and we worked out that the best place for the microphone, for the ambience is the cupboard under the stairs. And there are so many people who during lockdown have discovered this. I want to see that cupboard. Have you now kitted it out with like drinks and a coffee bar? If only. Do you know, I did think in turning it into a little bit more of a. But I could describe a few things that are. I mean, it's one of the normal cupboard under the stairs where it's got the. The hamster cage from the dead hamster. It's got this sounds like a ghost story. I'm sorry. Suitcases, it's got cleaning materials. Oh, my goodness me. You just wouldn't want to be in here with me. But I'm so glad to be with you. And I was loving listening, by the way. Don't let's talk about me. Let's talk about Andy West. Yes. And you gave me the best word I've ever heard come out of your mouth, which was catastrophizing. Yes, catastrophizing. I've never heard that. You haven't? I love it. I think because I work obviously as a psychologist and life coach, we often talk about people who catastrophize and it's like diaritizing and alphabetizing, but those are positive things. Is this because you're American? It probably did originate. A lot of. A lot of the psycho jargon comes from, you know, catastrophizing and all those sorts of things comes from America. First, mindfulness. I hate the word mindfulness, but it's true. If we're more mindful, we are more content usually. Now, I. I'm so glad You've learned a new word. Hey, I'm like Susie Dent. I've taught someone a word today. Now, I wanted to talk to you because we had a chat a couple years ago in your book how to Survive Divorce, which was a fantastic take on surviving divorce when it came out then a couple years ago, and I've been struck by a. The divorce statistics for 2019 have just come out and they are rising even before 2020, where there has been all sorts of challenges and pressures on couples during lockdowns, losing jobs, having to hot desk at home. And I thought, I just want to talk to you because you'd had so much to say about surviving divorce and so much of it positive and about moving on. So since I last spoke to you, how has your perspective changed on what you went through when you wrote that book? Well, I think there's two things that we have to point out here because, you know, there's probably people listening who are either in the thick of it or maybe they're thinking about it. They're in the thick of it or they're out the other end, dependent on when you talk, that person is dependent on their view. And of course, you spoke to me after I was in what I would call the eye of the storm. Yes. Now you can look back because as a very good friend of mine says, and I love this phrase, life makes more sense backwards. But at the time it doesn't. It doesn't at all. And you are going through this crazy emotion that you've. You've probably never felt before. You're holding on, but you don't know why you're holding on. Or maybe you're letting go, but you don't know why you're letting go. And you know, it's not a one shoe fits all. But I do know that had you spoken to me when I was in the middle of it, I definitely wouldn't have said, oh, you know, this has been a blessing, actually. I've moved on. And things are much more positive. Positive and happy now. And I fixed this and I saw. No, not at all. I was in a terrible state. But when you look back and you see that mess that you're in, that tangled web of emotion that you were in, and you look back because you've now untangled it and you see everything for what it is because life does make more sense backwards, then you can be optimistic and then you can look forward. What I do always say to people, though, is we have this life and it's really easy to and very Destructful. Destructing. If you. Destructive. Can I use that? I'm going to make some words out now. New word. With my slight lisp. That is a hard one to say, but you could. But you. But it's too easy if you're not careful. Don't, don't keep thumbing back and re looking at things because that doesn't do you any favors. I think once you have, once you've come out the other side and you have compartmentalized everything and you've seen where you were, then it is what it is and you need, you have to move forward. You really do. And I raise this with people who constantly talk about their breakup. Now, when you're going through the breakup, obviously you need to talk about it. And when you come out of the storm, as you describe it, you need to keep talking. But at some point, you see, because you are basically what you're talking about. So if you're constantly still talking about a breakup or divorce, you are. That you are stuck there. So I totally agree with you that at some point there has to be this kind of, you know, moving into a new ground, you know, new. You keep the pain alive, you keep the trauma alive. I think, you know, we all have friends who we have listened to constantly about their situation. But then when a few years later, we're still referring back and saying, oh, but if I hadn't have got divorced, then I would be doing this, that and the other, or if I was still in that marriage, I would be doing this, that and the other. Which is really what I meant to say. You, it's. I, you want to take them by the neck and go, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. And this actually doesn't just go for divorce. This just goes for a lot of situations in life. You know, people at the moment, if you've lost a job and it's terrible and it's awful, but there comes a point when you have to say, right, okay, then we're now moving forward. Let's look at what else I can do. Let's look at the opportunities. Yeah, exactly. Use new skills. Water finds a way. Positive people will always find a way. And we can look back on, you know, lot materialistic things, lovely houses you've had cars, you've had clothes you've had all those lovely things that maybe you have, maybe you don't have them anymore. But actually, are you any happier? Yes, I am happier. Of course I'm happier. Those things mean nothing. So I personally, the, the little journey I've Been on. I did. I was one of the. Those women who did everything I could to save my, My box, my. My home, my. My environment, my life. What I thought was important to me, say, you know, you save it, you save it. I want to hold on. And now it's all gone. I. I'm not actually sure what I was holding on to. Yeah, well, this is what. I thought there might be a different perspective. And it is. And I, And I think you, you regenerate and you never be one of these people who's got bitter and twisted tatted across your forehead. And especially when you are a little older and obviously things that happen in your 50s, you think, hold on a second. I've got more air miles behind me than I have in front of me. So I haven't got. I haven't. I shouldn't. And I don't have the opportunity here to be miserable because I have to make the best of the next. I don't know, I'm 60, so I think I've probably got another good, let's say a good 30 years on this planet, if not more, but 30 years. I have to make the best of them. So I can't keep thumbing back in my book of life and looking back at old times. Do you know what's one of the worst things that we see? And I know so many people are going to relate to this. Switch it off. We have Facebook memories. Oh, my goodness. I'm not on Facebook, but I know what you mean. No, I've never been on Facebook. Oh, my goodness me. I've switched them all off. Switch them all off. And even now Apple do it on the phone and they say, would you like to see what you're doing this time five years ago? Now I flipping well see what I was doing five years ago. Thank you very much. You keep the memories that you love in your. Like your mobile phone. You've got the pictures you want to see, but you don't need the reminders. Now, you mentioned a friend's a little bit ago where. Like a friend who gets stuck in the breakup trap. Yes. And now I remember when we last spoke about this, you were saying that your friends really helped get you through. I mean, a lot of people feel, I don't, I don't want to tell my friends how bad things are or I don't want to be a burden. And. And yet friends don't look at it like that. And I just wondered, you know, again, if you can, you can reiterate how friends help. Helped you What? What? You know, what would I do without my collection of great friends that are male and female? And it's good for a woman and obviously in the opposite. To have the opposite sex mates who will talk to you in the amount of times that I have. But I have one particular boy mate. And the amount of times I go. And you go, that. Stop right there. That. No, no, no, no, no, no. You've got that completely and utterly wrong because men just don't think like that. And I go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, Actually, you're right. You're right. Okay. Yes, that's it. Getting that other perspective. That's it. Always get another perspective. And, you know, you don't have to pay therapist if you've got a good set of friends, but they do that. They are fantastic and they've been very supportive. And I know that we have, many of us, we pass that on. We. We are then supportive to our friends when they're going through difficult times. And especially something which is so emotional as a divorce. It's not a practical thing, but although I. There is a practical side to it. And I think this is where again, as women, we're not very good at this. Men are better at it. But of course, women, we're better at talking about it. And sometimes, sadly, what men do is they don't talk about it and they bottle it all up and then they make themselves ill and they need to release and they need to talk about it all. Men need a really good girl mate. We talk about this all the time, like here on men's and the women's radio station and, and you know, out in, in the social media, people are saying men need to talk more. But you're right, a lot of men still don't talk, you know, and, and it is, it really soothes. Soothes the soul if you can just let it out to someone who won't judge you. You know, you don't have to feel embarrassed about telling the awful things you've been going through with your ex or whatever. I think that's so critical now. We don't have a lot of time. And I do want to ask you again. You're another guest I could talk to for a lot longer. I have to get you back on. How long did you leave it to date again? Because I do a lot of date coaching and this is. This theme often comes up, like with someone who's gone through a breakup. Am I ready to date yet? When did you decide you were kind of ready to date? Did friends start setting you up or did you start friends? It was friends. No, I. I just thought this was the most frightening thing that could ever happen to me was going on a date. The fear was deep down inside me because I'd never really been a dater, to be honest. I'm someone. You'd had long relationships. Really long relationships. Absolutely. And so, so. Oh, my. I. I could get in a cold sweat just a thought of it. And that's again, where you need your friends and my. Anybody set you up on a successful blind date or like me, obviously. Obviously. Now I was there for a friend. Okay. I didn't realize. Absolutely. And I mean, it was five years that I was on. On my own. I dated a few people, but nothing that I would call significant. And, And I. It took actually somebody you know as well. It took a Lizzie Cundy. Lizzy went to a party and she met this chap and she just said, my goodness me, you are so right for my friends, Andy. And he'd broken up as well from somebody a couple of years ago or a year ago. And. And he said. She said, I'm going to set you up on a date. Date. And she did. And that was just over a year ago. Amazing. It was a blind date. Not quite that blind because Lizzie came with me because I was that scared. She knew that was the only way she was going to get me there. Okay. And I heard dragon, do you then, like, over her and say, go on, go on, you can leave now. He's okay. And that means she stayed with me throughout the whole thing. And, and, and then briefly he asked me out again and I thought, well, I can go on my own this time. And, and we did. We got. We got on. But I have to say I was frightened. And I tell you why I think a lot of people are frightened at men and women is because when you've been hurt, you are. You've. You've now mended your heart. Yeah. And you've put yourself back together and you're. You're doing lots of things and you really think, wahoo, your tail is up. But please don't hurt my heart. My heart was so protected. We've run out of time, darling. And I'm just really, really sorry that we've run out of time at this crucial point. But you're absolutely right. You have to kind of almost know when, when you could cope if things. You can open it up again. Open the cage again. Well, listen, thank you again for joining me, darling. And people can find you atAnthea turner.com and pleasure always to speak to you. All right then, thank you. Lots of love. Lots of love and thank. Bye bye. Thank you so much for everybody who joined me today and I'm sorry I ran out of time to get to any comments that were sent in. Really appreciate them. I'm going to try my best next show to make sure that I get your comments, I get them read out. And again, I'll be back in a fortnight here on men's radio station tomorrow. The show is repeated on the women's and the men's radio station at 4 4pm, yeah, 4pm UK time. So you'll be able to catch up then if you've missed some of the show today with my fantastic guests. Anyway, thank you so much for joining me and thanks again to Jay James, Andy west and Anthea Turner. Are you feeling anxious? Online therapy 24. 7 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207-553-5080 and check out our website onlinetherapy247.com.