Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Stephen Bailey, Dr Jeff Bowen, Tina Wilson

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As always, I've got Stephen Bailey, one of my favorite standups. I have Dr. Jeff Bowman of Johns Hopkins University. And of course, I also have Tina Wilson, who is the founder of Wingman Apps. So we've got lots we're going to talk about and I hope you'll get in touch with. So now I am delighted to welcome my first guest. As I said, he's Stephen Bailey, one of my favorite comedians. You might have seen him on Live at the Apollo or on Celebs on the Farm or Roast Battle. And you can find Stephen on his social media. That's stephencomedy and that's both Twitter and Instagram and his website, stephenbaileycomedy.co.uk and if you want to find out about his upcoming gigs, best place to check is his website. Now, today, Stephen and I are going to be talking all the things that are trending and what's been making the news. And I expect him here any moment. So I wonder what you. Hi. Hello, darling. And like magic I am. Here you are. It's so good to see you. We haven't spoken for about two years. It's crazy, isn't it? It's like time really flies because you're busy and then when you're bored doing nothing because the global pandemic hits, somehow you end up being busy baking banana bread. Is that what you've been doing? I've been. I was going to ask you, what have you been doing? Honestly, so many people have been getting in shape, getting really creative. I have rewatched every episode of Sex and the City every episode of Dawson's Creek and I've ate my feelings. That's all I've done. Tell me about it. I've eaten my feelings too. I wrote a book on emotional eating and I know it when I'm doing it. But sometimes you just can't help it. During, you know, the lockdowns we've had and stuff, 100%. Me, my friend would talk about this this morning because he was like, oh my gosh, I've just stopped and had a McDonald's for breakfast. That I know it's a bad idea, but now I'm stuck in the drive thru so I have to commit to it. And I was like, do you know what I think during a pandemic, everything's out of the window. We've just got to try and keep our mental health. Exactly. But if I'd known you were baking banana bread, I would have been sneaking over to yours, knocking on your door and saying, please will you hand me some through the window because I love banana bread. I would left you some because we were eating it. So we, we were like during lockdown, Me and my partner were like, right, we're gonna make really nice dinners every night because obviously I'm a comedian, so normally I'm not home for dinner. So I was like, right, we'll make really nice dinners, but we'll also have like a little sweet treat after each one. Normally we don't bother with dessert unless we're out. But you're doing a sweet treat. We love a sweet treat. So we did dinner, a sweet treat and then banana bread. Two sweet treats. Two sweet treats, yes. Can I say that without stumbling over it? Nobody can. Now you, of course, you host like celebs on the farm now. Isn't there, is there another series coming up on that? Because. Yeah, yeah, it's so good. We're so lucky because obviously we normally find out around March time if we're getting renewed and coming back now. March time this year, a global crisis happened. So people had bigger things to think about than if I need to take a bunch of celebrities to milk some cows. And so we didn't find out for ages. And then obviously, like, you actually just couldn't film anything. They shut production down during the first lockdown and so we were really lucky we were able to do like social bubble filming in between lockdown one and lockdown two. So it's coming in the new year. I don't have a date yet, but it is coming. Well, I just can't wait, because. And I would love to be able to comment on the celebs this series. I wish there was some way of doing that because there was so, so many antics, so much fun in the last series. Now, what about your gigs? Because of course a lot of comedians have been going online, doing things online. So what are you up to? And any socially distanced gigs that people. Yeah, I've done a bit of everything at this point. I have been really lucky because even though I did lose a lot of my jobs and a lot my income with like you say, we were able to do things online. So we've. I've been luckier than so many people. And it's really funny because I know so many, you know, we're comedians, we love a live audience, so it's not quite the same. But I am enjoying a zoom gig because I don't have to leave my bedroom. It's fabulous. And people get a peek inside your bedroom and that's it. And I do find the socially distanced ones hard because I love my audience. Like, I, I'm not, I feel like I can't do this without you. So you're my friends, you're not my audience. You come into a show allows me to pay my mortgage. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And it's. And so normally in the real world, I would, in the break where most people would go and sit in the dressing room, I go around with a glass of rose, I have a little mingle. Oh, how are you doing? I've not seen you in about a year. Thanks for coming to the show. Hope you enjoy it on you, you know, all that stuff, how, you know, how's your baby? And then this shit's been really hard because you get ushered backstage because obviously government guidelines, that's the right thing to do. But it is hard. You want to go out and talk to people. Well, that's what I love. When I saw you in Edinburgh and I love your stand up and you did, you kind of, you didn't sort of run scared from the audience. And that's admirable because a of comedians will just disappear either in their interval or when the show is done and they do not want to have sort of personal interaction. And I think that's, I mean, I think that it must be something to do with you as a person wanting to relate like that because a lot of the comedians I know are quite shy and often quite insecure, so they don't want to kind of give their real self, apart from the state, self what about, how do you feel about that? Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm insecure and shy as well and like, I have the worst anxiety. But I also am very wary that if you don't have people coming to your shows, you don't have a show to do. So I, I really want to thank people for coming and I, I do want to like, talk to people if they, like. Some people just want to come and watch the show and then they leave and that's fine. But some people like do want to have a chat with you. They do almost in a way, become friends. Like, there's a lady that comes to see me and she has come to see me for like the past four years. She'll always be there and support and it's like she messaged me during the lockdown and was like, you don't fancy a FaceTime, do you? And just having a chat and it's like, yeah, happily have a chat. Like, oh, that's so cool. Well, it's like all these people support us and I think that is the big thing is going to. Don't forget where your money comes from. You know, it's like if you worked in a shop, the customer is always right. Be nice to the customer, otherwise they won't come back. It's the same thing. Well, the thing is you, you get your mortgage paid from your shows. When I see like your show or other standups, we get our endorphins rushing. So for well being. And this show always comes back to well being. Laughter is such an important boost to well being. And one of the tips I was giving out when we went into the first lockdown, get some comedy in your life. Rewatch. You know the old comedy that live at the Apollos, you know, look at Dave, you know, the comedy channel. Just get that laughter to help boost your mood. So you do a social service when it comes to mental health. You stand ups. Oh, I don't know if that's true, but I do think I find it the same backwards. Like whenever I'm anxious or feeling down or like I'm going to the dark place or whatever, whenever I get on stage and you are making people laugh. But also it's like, because I do quite interactive comedy, like I will talk to people in the audience, they make me laugh as well. So it's this whole nice little. I always say my gigs are like a coffee morning, but with Rosie and, and naughtiness. Because you do get a bit filthy with your humor. I really do. And Honestly, it's really. I've not been out in ages and I did a show the other night and I'd had it. I had two glasses of rose. That is it. And I was so drunk, I don't even know how I got through the show. I felt so bad. I was like, too. Two glasses of rose. Yeah. And I would be totally. Yeah, I'd be. I'd be your loudest, you know, person in your audience. Yeah. Are you going? And normally, because it obviously is a job, I don't drink on stage, but I just felt like it's Christmas, it's post lockdown, like, let your hair down a little bit. But like you say, my tolerance was just so different and I was like, they've just watched a drunk man for an hour. Well, listen, moving on to what's trending, I want to run these things past you. Now, of course, there have been some people breaking the tier regulations. Rita Ora, Kay Burley, Beth Rigby, they've all been in the news and, you know, a lot of them are kind of like. Like Kay and Beth are evidently off Sky News for a few weeks while they sort it out. Now, in our own lives, people make mistakes in our personal lives. And I was wondering how you feel about things like forgiveness and where we go when someone like a friend or a partner has kind of made a mistake that's upset us. How do you handle these sorts of things? Well, I get out the voodoo doll and I destroy. No, I find it really interesting. Like I am, you know, we all make mistakes, we all get it wrong. And one of my biggest flaws used to be that I used to be so afraid of confrontation that I wouldn't deal with anything, which is such a. Because then you never get anything resolved. You're just hiding from the world. Whereas one of my really good friends was always like, once you've said sorry, there's no way people can go like you've done once you've acknowledged and apologized. And I was like, that's so true. So now I say sorry whenever I've made a mistake. And I do believe in forgiveness, but I also believe if you're going to forgive someone, that's it. We're not talking about it afterwards. Like, you have to forgive and move on. If you can't forgive, then this conversation. But I genuinely do believe, I can't bear it, you know, when it's like, right, we've had a bit of a tiff, we've said sorry, we've moved on, but it's been brought up every day, it just dampens it and then you don't get to move on. So it's like if you're accepting the apology, you have to accept it and then if you're not, well, then, you know, maybe you're all going your separate ways. Well, it's interesting you mentioned that, because one thing they found about people who've been cheated on. 60% of couples stay together after a partner's been unfaithful. But in that 60%, a high percentage, throw it back in the person's face. Yes, supposedly they've accepted the apology. They say they want to move on, but every time there's an argument over money or where to live or who's going to do the washing up, it gets thrown back. Well, you had the affair, you do it. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And that is never healthy because if you are going to forgive something, a small mistake, a big mistake like an affair, you have to decide how you're going to move forward and not keep resurrecting it like this really bad smell that just keeps coming up in every argument. So I think you made a really good point that. Do you think it's about boundaries in your own mind? Because obviously I could react different, something else. So, for example, me, I know if my boyfriend cheated on me and I forgave him and we carried on, I would be that person that would throw it back in his face and I wouldn't be able to forgive him. There's so many things I can forgive, but with that, for me, when the trust is gone, it's just gone. So do you think it's about knowing who you are? Because some people can forgive and forget. Like, some people could really go, all right, you had a slip, I'm over it and we're moving on. I'm not that person. Yeah. It really does come down to your personality traits and things like what you hold to a high standard. Even something like an authoritarian personality trait might enter it. That. I would never do that. So if you do that, I'm never going to forget it. So maybe you're a little closet authoritarian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, gosh. I think it makes us think whenever we see people and the kind of trolling these people have had. I mean, I, trust me, I don't think they should have broken tier regulations. But the venom that comes out when people have made a mistake like that and you see it on social media, it can be quite scary and you think, God, these people are never going to forget this mistake. You know, and also we're all hypocrites as well, because it's like those people, you know, you see it on your Facebook when someone goes, oh my God, I've been out shopping. And it is rammed. Everyone just stay home. And it's like you're out shopping. I know you literally just said you're out. And it's things like that. And I do. Do you know what, the first time around, you know what, it was like a very clear lock. These are the rules. Stay home. That I really, I think when we're in a full lockdown, I really think there's no excuse for breaking it. Yeah, I do think the tier system has blown people's mind. Like, and like the tier system, tier 3 today does not mean what tier 3 men 2 months ago exactly changed. This is a bit of a mess. It leads me on the fact that recently Dawn French did a podcast and she was saying how she was dating someone, turned out that he was a Tory and she dumped him immediately. Now, would you dump someone over something like their political beliefs? Because again, Brexit has been trending. And this makes me think about, again, the rows are starting within family members, within couples. The amount of couples that evidently broke up about Brexit is quite startling. So how about you? How do you deal? I mean, say your partner. Now, do you have similar beliefs when it comes to like, politics? Or could you forgive someone's politics and still love them despite that? So we're on the same page. I think it helps that I'm not the most politically savvy, so I think that really helps. But I don't know, I'm always in two minds about this because I don't think I've, I think, you know, we're all in, we're all, we're all surrounded by people that are like minded, otherwise they wouldn't necessarily get through the front door. But for me, I'm kind of like, I wouldn't break up with anyone because their political views, but it's like you can't have political views because of small mindedness or bigotry. Like, you know, do you know the whole thing where it's like, like I voted. I don't know if we're talking about this, but with Brexit, I was someone who voted Remain. But also, you know, if you voted Leave, I'm not, I don't hate you. Like, it's your right. And I don't like the attitude of going, if you voted Leave, you're a racist. That it's like not everyone who voted Leave is a racist. Some are, but not all of them. Yeah, no, I agree with you there. In our family there were rows, funny enough, originally I was going to vote Brexit and I think it was kind of my. Because, you know, I'm joint American, UK citizenship, and I kind of think it was the American heritage mute. And I was thinking, well, I wouldn't want Canada or Mexico to tell me what to do in America, so. So maybe here. But by the time it all came, my whole thoughts about it evolved and I became a remainer. But people in my family mainly remained. There were some Brexiters and it got heated. I mean, not with me, but, you know, I wasn't going to have a go at them like that. But no, I've been there and it's now happening again. And I think, again, I think it depends upon your personality, whether if you're a political animal and you live and breathe politics, maybe you're not going to accept someone else's views. But if you're more like me, where I'm interested in politics, but. But it doesn't. I don't live and breathe it, then I'm much more accepting. So you've never admit when it comes to like politics and voting, like, I paid more attention to like, who was getting who. Who would win the X Factor than I would. Who would win a political race. I am, I do get involved with politics, but just not that heavy. I'm always like, there's smarter people than me. I don't believe that's harder than you. Now, moving on. Another thing that was trending was Boris Johnson was being called Benny Hill because a couple of his photographs where he's like saluting and I don't know if you remember the old Benny Hill things where he's saluting himself. So that's been trending recently and I was thinking about nicknames sometimes, I suppose. I mean, that's, I think, is quite funny and I don't think someone like Boris Johnson would be upset, but I guess there's a difference between funny nicknames and cruel nicknames. Did you have any nickname at school or. I mean, none to my face. Palm. I'm sure I had plenty behind my back. I had the odd thing, obviously I'm a camp gay man, so every now and again I got called Stephanie, which I'm fine with. Yeah, I'm like, fine, but. And also I didn't mind because at the time in Neighbours there was a character called Steph and I thought she was great and but more recently, me and my boyfriend have developed little pet names for each other during lockdown, because where most couples have, like, fallen out of love, we've actually realized that we actually do like each other. So he. I know. It's so cute. So he calls me his little monkey kins, and I call him my Furlough. It's very cute. Oh, my gosh. I love that. It's like, my other half, he's the captain of that. And maybe it's a fantasy thing, but do you say, like, aye, aye, captain. I'm not gonna tell you. Yeah, I dress up in, like, a naval uniform and pretend I'm just a. Like a lowly sailor and he's the captain. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But no, I think it's quite cute when couples do that. But I've known when I've sat with other couples who then start using their pet names, like around a dinner table pre lockdown. Let's. Let's be clear about this. Yeah. And it can sometimes be a little bit more cringe, you know? So do you think those pet nicknames are better for that just in her in the home, or would. Would he call you Monkey Kins when you're out in the pub next time you're free to do that. No, he wouldn't do that in public. I always think, you know, like, PDA is public displays of affection. When people are that in love in public, I always think there's somewhat dubious going on because it's like, I do love my boyfriend, but I don't need to touch him all the time. I mean, at this. How long? Like, nine months of lockdown, I'm happy if we have separate bedrooms. Yeah. Because usually you're on the road. That's it. I was like, geez, normal. I'd only be here two nights a week. It's hard seeing you for seven days. But see, isn't that great that you two have managed to work it out because you brought up a really important thing again, Lockdown. Divorce lawyers have been rubbing their hands with glee. Well, that's not fair to, you know, ethical divorce lawyers saying that. But there have been so many breakups with people being over stressed. Also, there was one study that came out that showed some couples have grown closer and they've done it together. And that sounds like, you know, you and Furlough. Yeah, that's what I call him. Yeah. But that's great that you've managed to work the stresses and strains out and be. Be closer, you know? I think it's because we're both, we. We learn early on, not in the relationship, in the pandemic, to be really honest about it. So it's like, especially because we've got a one bed flat. You know, there's not many places to go away from each other, especially in that first lockdown where there was so like, you know, it's like you can only leave the house for an hour to jog or whatever and I don't jog. You had a jog. I'd go for a little walk, but it's like, you know, just shutting the door on the bedroom going, right, I need two hours, just me and Carrie Bradshaw. And I need to think that you don't exist for two hours. And he'll be like, okay. And he'll be the same. He'll be like, I'm on a really important work call where you just go for your walk. And it's like, man, I don't want to go for a walk. He's like, just go. Just go. Well, that's great that you talked about and worked it out. And I wish other couples had done that. I think we just got time to do one last trending topic and that was that recently Tesco was in trending for saying that there may be shortages if we have a no deal Brexit. And certainly some items are going to be more pricey. Like, evidently Brie cheese. Now, what would you miss if there were shortages? Because I know what I'm going to miss. What are you going to miss from the continent? Sorry? What are you going to miss? Well, if you just look there, I've got all sorts of Lindt chocolate, like chocolate Santas and reindeers and teddy bears. I am such a lint chocolate bunny. I love it. Really. And if we can't get lint chocolate from the continent, I will be very upset. Do you know, for me, I'm kind of like, I. I have thought about this issue fast and mine would just be. I don't think they'd ever run out of any of anything that would break me, really. Because it's like Coca Cola. Oh, my God. I've got into a bad habit with Coca Cola. I have a glass every morning. I don't think you should. Yeah, you shouldn't. Really. I just go. It feels like. Because it made every day feel like you're like, on Christmas Day, all the rules go out the window in the morning. Yeah. So that's what I've done during the pandemic is, you know, a little Bit full fat Coke and well, I do have a piece of toast. I don't have the chocolate as well, so I think Coca Cola because it has been my crutch. And I think, do you know those, do you know like the sweeties that are shaped like teeth and they're covered in sugar? Oh, they're fabulous. Oh, you mean the kind of ones that are like sherbetty almost. They fizzy. Fizzy. No, they're not fizzy. It's kind of like. I don't know what I mean. I want to say powder but then it sounds wrong. But it's like, it is like a powder coating and it's like a, like a pick a mix vibe and honest. God. I, I mean, at one point me and Rich made a deal, Rich's furlough. We made a deal that we would just do one really healthy week because we had been really naughty and I'd be like, right, I'm just popping to the shop. I'll go, I'll go. You stay working. And I'd get a bag and I'd eat it in the car. I love Shame based. Shame based. We have got a confession from Stephen Bailey. Oh, my goodness, I love Confessions on this show. Oh, I'm so glad. It sounds that things are, you know, are going well and you've handled lockdown well and, and you and furlough have done well. That, that's all brilliant to hear. And as I said, you people can find you on social media, StephenComedy and your website, Stephen baileycomedy.co.uk and tickets go to the website for upcoming gigs, that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't really have anything at the moment but I will go on tour at the end of next year. That. But you didn't have a. Two. Two nights ago. Yeah, I did have that. That's the one where I had my roses. So that was good. But yeah, that's the last one. I have booked it and that was actually a practice for the tour next year. So I'm definitely coming to the tour next year. You must. I'll heckle you back. Okay, well, listen, you darling, it's so lovely to talk to you. As I say, it's been two years. Thank you so much for joining me today. Today. Oh, thanks Pam, for having me. Talk to you soon. Bye. So that was Stephen Bailey and I'm now delighted that my next guest is coming up and let me tell you a little about him. His name is Dr. Jeffrey Bowen. He's a lecturer in the department of Psychological and brain sciences at the renowned Johns Hopkins. His specialties include relationship development and what keeps people together. And I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Bowen now and find out. Want to find out. Hello. Hello Jeff. I guess I can call you Jeff. Yes. Good morning or morning, good afternoon for you. Yeah, you're five hours behind over on the east coast of the States. Thank you for joining me. Now the first question. I mean, obviously I'm fascinated by your work and I found you online and I wanted to know what brought you into this area of relationships. I know what it's like when you're a student in your first degree and you're finding your way. What interested you are you just nosy, I don't think any more, any more than the next person. There's a, there's some psychologists in my family, most of them were clinicians and so I had, I was lucky to sort of get some exposure to that world from an early age. And I actually found that my favorite part was speaking with other, other psychologists, other professionals in that world about the theory and the science that was sort of involved, informing their interest and sort of the best practices and the evidence that they were drawing on to help others. And so when I got to, got to university, I was learning all about, you know, the various research labs that were on campus where undergraduates could get involved. And I did have a natural curiosity about relationships, as I think most of us do, just, you know, in reflecting on my own life and that of friends and family and, and what we like to say a lot in the science of relationships is that we study these processes because for most of us, relationships are the sources of our highest highs and our lowest lows if we think about impactful memories and experiences in our lives. And so to discover that there was a whole psychological discipline devoted to studying that, that there were well validated techniques and an entire community of researchers, that was all the convincing I needed to get involved. That's, that's really interesting and I have questions, you know, to run past you and I'm going to skip right now just because what you've said about, you know, the impact of earlier relationships and as we're growing up, how do our parents relationships affect, you know, our view of how adult relationships should be? Well, you know, there's, there's one theory in particular in the psychology of relationships that has a lot to say about this, that guides a lot of our thinking and research on this topic and that's what's called attachment theory. It was actually started by a British Psychologist John Bowlby, who was working at the Tavistock Institute many decades ago. And the guiding idea behind the theory is that our approach to relationships throughout our life are shaped in large part by caregiving experiences. Often that's with a parent, but it could be a different primary caregiver. And those experiences shape not only our sense of ourselves as being sort of worthy of care and what kinds of experiences we have, but also our expectations for whether other people can provide us support and meet our needs, especially when we're distressed. And so we carry that forward into our adult relationships, in many cases in romantic context. And so if, for example, you've had a lot of experiences with caregivers who are not readily available, then you may find it more difficult to trust other people, develop intimacy, you might be more independent, whereas other folks may have had overbearing caregiving or really inconsistent caregiving. And then that leads to an uncertainty about what to expect. And so that can lead someone to be more anxious in their adult relationships and potentially seek a lot of reassurance and be worried about rejection. And so there's definitely a through line there. Different major life experiences can change people's trajectories, but there's good evidence that that can happen for many of us. Interesting what you've mentioned about inconsistent parenting. And you know, originally when I was doing my doctorate at a London teaching hospital here, you know, it was with the under fives and children with emotional and behavioral problems. And certainly that inconsistency came through in just how the child, the young child reacted. So what you're saying and what I know from that sort of work very early on, these things have an impact. And I don't think a lot of people walking around today like, you know, adults who are looking for love quite realize how much that past may impact, you know, what the decisions are making now. Yeah, no, it certainly can. And you know, especially if, you know, going through adolescence and early adulthood, if those patterns are reinforced, as they often can be, because they're, they're guiding your behaviors, you know, you're trying to manage your own concerns and your insecurities that may have been born out of those early caregiving experiences. And so if you end up in, you know, almost like a self fulfilling prophecy kind of a way, if those experiences compound, then they, they can certainly play a major role in shaping adult relationships. Fortunately, there, there is some evidence to suggest that if you have a lot of a different kind of experience over time, that you can sometimes, you know, change some of those trajectories. But There's a lot of evidence over time to suggest that those caregiving experiences make a big impact. So back to what you're saying about maybe you've grown up with parents who were not that invested and that maybe you become quite independent in your relationships. Now, how does that play into. I know I've seen in your work something about, you know, the hard to get people play hard to get. Now, would that lead. Can independence. An independent personality is probably different than someone who plays hard to get. Yes, I would say so distinction that, you know, singles are out there looking for love, they meet someone who's independent or they meet someone who's playing hard to get. What could they expect between maybe those two scenarios? Right. Yeah, so. So that the independence. There's certainly many healthy forms of independence. If the caregiving experiences that somebody's had has led them to the point that they actually don't trust other people to meet their needs, then you can get sort of a more insecure pattern. We would tend to characterize that as attachment avoidance. And so in some of our recent work, we're finding that folks who score high on this particular dimension of insecurity, and some of it can come with independence with. To meeting one's own needs, but it also tends to come with a tendency to want to keep others at a distance. You know, develop intimacy maybe on your own terms or being a little bit uncomfortable with certain kinds of closeness. And so we found that for some of those people, playing hard to get could be seen as a useful strategy because, you know, on the one hand we can think, well, maybe that makes a person appear desirable to others. You know, maybe you're withholding because, you know, there's a lot that you have to offer and you, you don't just want to make it available to any person who's interested in you, but it may also help you sort of control the unfolding of courtship in a way where, you know, if you are uncomfortable with the. The vulnerability that can go along with emotional intimacy, then helping to sort of keep others at a distance and controlling that progression can be a way to protect yourself a little bit bit. And, you know, some people enjoy, you know, that that can sometimes, you know, feel like, like a bit of a game or a thrill of a chase situation. But other times it's performing a pretty important psychological function for these people because their experiences may have led them to believe they have to tread carefully in these vulnerable, intimate situations. And that's so interesting. And is there any research that takes that then the next stage where if someone who's been playing hard to get, perhaps due to feeling insecure, so it's their way of managing and controlling how a new relationship unfolds, do they readily come to a point then where they feel secure enough to give their heart to this new person? Or is that problematic to ever let go and become vulnerable? I think that's actually. It's a great question and one we actually talk about as being an important direction for researchers to continue exploring. So. So I'm not aware of research that directly explores sort of the long term outcomes of relationships that may have begun because somebody was playing hard to get and potentially attracting a partner in that way. But I think, you know, individuals who have a certain maybe insecurely driven pattern can have quite stable relationships with other people who maybe just have a different kind of insecure pattern, and they may actually meet each other's needs or reinforce each other's sort of styles in relationships a bit. So I think that over time, you know, even if a relationship may have begun in that way, like with early caregiving experiences, you know, if you have enough of a different type of experience over the course of your life, that may change or shift your expectations, I think you can expect the same pattern here. Right. If you ultimately do get into a relationship, even in that way, but you find yourself, you know, with somebody who you can trust, who does in fact meet your needs in a predictable way, who you can rely upon when you're distressed, then I think over time that that can shift in a more secure direction. Now, thinking of a different aspect to this, where let's say you had parents who had quite a lot of drama in their relationship, so they would have a volatile sort of makeup, breakup sort of thing, do you find that people then tend to seek that out because that's kind of what they know. They almost look for a partner. Sorry, I'm making a lot of echoing. I'm not quite sure why they almost look for a partner who gives them that drama, because that's kind of what they're used to. Is that something that pans out like that or. I think there is some evidence, right. That in some instances those, those patterns, you know, intergenerationally can sometimes manifest because. Right. There is a certain rhythm or familiarity to how you relate to another person and you learn from those experiences. And so especially, you know, from an attachment theory perspective, your expectations about what other people can do to meet your needs or how to seek support if your distress are shaped by those experiences. And so you do develop tendencies and Patterns and expectations that you carry forward, even if you're applying them to a new person or a new relationship that may not actually be volatile in those ways, but you may potentially bring about some of those familiar patterns because those have been your experiences. But you know, a certain, a certain awareness about, you know, aspects of those previous relationships that you may find destructive that you want to overcome. It is certainly possible also to, to change the tide of those patterns. But yes, the short answer is there's definitely evidence that that can carry over in the way you're describing. And on the other hand, I remember I once read a study about children of divorce where some, I can't remember this percentage, but some group of children go on from, if they've experienced a really bad divorce through their parents, they go on to become like non arguers. They avoid conflict, they just want peace. So how, what are your thoughts on that? Where, when they're looking for a partner, those sort of people who don't want any conflict because they had so much in their childhood. Yeah, I think, I think that that's certainly another way that you could respond. Like we can have these sort of, these are these reactions to previous experiences where in an interest of not repeating a pattern that we've had negative experiences with, we try, you know, to swing almost all the way the other way, you know, and you know, sometimes that can, that can work to our benefit and maybe it's, you know, it's a useful way to learn from those previous experiences, otherwise it might open the door to new difficulties that we hadn't anticipated. But yeah, I think, you know, while many people may find themselves in a rhythm that's familiar to the one that they grew up with, there are others who will swing the other way. And I think there's, there's plenty of psychological factors that could be responsible for sort of which approach you take. And I think, you know, the social circles in which you're embedded later in life also play a big role in shaping that. So what do you think? People often say to me, oh, it was love at first sight. I'm a big skeptic. I always say it was lust at first sight. That, you know, your kind of sexual chemistry is talking to each other when people claim that. But what do you, what are your thoughts on that sort of love at first sight? Yeah, unrequited love is a really interesting category. I don't know too much about the research that explored that particular experience, but there's plenty of work about, you know, infatuation as a phenomenon that can shape, you know, the passionate spark that a lot of people experience at the beginning of a relationship. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of arousing features in an early interaction, whether it's novelty, whether it's physical appeal, whether it's something, you know, new and exciting about how you communicate with somebody. And so I think, you know, there are some approaches to the study of love that say, well, the love has so many different forms. Maybe one that's built out of, you know, extended companionship and intimacy and trust. That may not be the kind that people are necessarily experiencing at those first moments, but a more sort of passion driven experience. Sure. You know, sometimes it's. It's almost more of a semantic distinction. So, you know, that is definitely phenomenologically a thing people will have experienced. But the form that it takes over time, whether that's the same kind of love that we experience in a deep, long term, committed relationship, maybe it doesn't have all those features. So it's definitely something that has those passionate elements, but also something that takes a great deal of work and time to cultivate. Well, it's really interesting because I've been having people who say to me, oh, if there's not a spark when I first meet someone, then they're not for me. But I also know plenty of people who have told me stories about, well, I worked with this colleague for like two years and I suddenly realized one day how much they meant to me and actually I really loved them, you know, and we got together after just two years, but there was no initial spark. So I often feel like saying to people, just be more open minded. If you're looking for love, it may not be that bam. You know, I was hit by that first spark. It may be something that grows. And again, I wondered if you've ever looked at those sort of relationships that have grown from a kind of friendship or work colleagues over time. Yeah, I think, you know, people's relationship origins do evidence a sort of a mix of those kind of processes. And I think, you know, some of the research, I believe would point to the desire for there to be that spark at the beginning is something that's just going to vary from person to person. So I think for those who feel that they need, need that not having it may, it may be really challenging for, for those people to initiate a relationship in the absence of that. And others who have those stories of it didn't need to begin that way. It was a slow build over time are people that are Also maybe predisposed to being perfectly content with a relationship developing that way. And so whether, you know, they, they have a, you know, a mental framework or schema that they bring to each of those situations that shapes whether that's, you know, a deal breaker or not. I think there's plenty of individual differences, psychologically speaking, whether it's your style of attachment or whether it's a personality dimension or whether it's just what you value most in a partner. I think those are going to determine which of those paths is most likely to characterize it for someone. So I don't think it's one size fits all. I think that advice is probably well taken for a lot of people now. About 17, 18 years ago, I wrote a guide on dating and I was doing the research on successful relationships and, and it struck me there were a number of factors and then I, for my popular psychology guide, broke it into five what I called F factors. You need to have some sort of harmony or agreement on if you're going to have a successful long term relationship. And in caps, or to put it briefly, you know, it was finances, family, you know, if you were the type who was family orientated or not, friendship and socializing, then also fun and leisure, because if you end up with someone who's always watching football but you can't stand, it might be a problem. And then friskiness. So the sexual side of things. And I was just wondering, in terms of compatibility, when people are meeting, is there any research that shows something stands out as the most important, that would, would predict success? Like is it, is it if you both love family or is it that you both see finances some way? I mean, or maybe there's not some magical piece of research that highlights what's most important. I mean, I, I would say that all of those factors in different, different ways are definitely playing a role. I think, you know, if one of them is taking precedence for, for, you know, it could differ a little bit from one person to the next. But just in terms of physical attraction plays an enormous role for I think a majority of relationships, when they form what people are specifically interested in, has some variability, but that is certainly big for attraction. I also think compatibility in its many forms plays a big role as well. So if we're talking about interests being aligned, then from the perspective of the five Fs, fun and leisure, certainly that can support relationship development. When it comes to things like alignment in values and beliefs, especially if these are really sort of core to a person's identity, it may be Pretty challenging to navigate a relationship with someone who can't complement that or match that. So I think those are some big factors. Just with my first guess, I was mentioning how Dawn French, who's a comedian and actress here in the uk, had recently said, as she had dropped someone at some point because she found out that he was what we call a Tory or Conservative, you know, and. And, yeah, I suppose those can be deal breakers if. If that certain political view means that much to you, you know. Right. But, you know, I've only got you for another minute and I was just wondering, any. Any advice to singles out there who are looking for love? Anything that you can flag up that might change, give them say, oh, yeah, that's a good thing to be looking for. Or what? Or tips. You know, so much of my work is focused on sort of maintaining relationships that have already begun. And so maybe, you know, some of the best evidence for happy and stable relationships in those domains could also help for singles, which, you know, a lot of it comes down to communicating effectively with other people. You know, being able to establish trust and build intimacy in that way. You know, sharing about yourself honestly and engagingly, listening constructively to what other people have to say and really making it known that you value who they are and their perspectives. I think that can go a long way, you know, regardless of the context. Excellent. All excellent things for people to consider. And thank you so much for your time, Jeff, of course your people are interested in your research. They can check you out. Dr. Jeff Bowen Johns Hopkins. And yes, we'll have to have you back on sometime. I'd love to. Thank you. Informative. Thank you. And take care. You too. Take care. Now I'll be moving on to my next guest, who is Tina Wilson. Now, Tina is the founder of Wingman dating app. And if you follow me on Twitter, you'll know that I do a regular relationship and dating column for them. And if you want to go online, if you're on social media, you can find Tina Wingman underscore Tina. And also you can just follow at Wingman app that's on social media. And I'm delighted that Tina is going to be joining me any moment now because we want to talk about dating. Hello, Tina. Hi. Hi. Nice to see you. Yeah. Last time I saw you was in March, before lockdown. Do you remember? I remember some of the people there were wearing plastic gloves, so they were always already preparing for the madness. Who knew? Who knew this could happen? I know, I know. We. I think we're all feeling still at that point, that hopeful that it wasn't going to become what it did become. But it's so much I want to ask you. First off, please tell people about Wingman and then I want to know, you know, why you founded it. So tell them about Wingman app and how they use it if they're singles. So if you are single and have tried traditional apps, dating apps, or just dislike online dating, Wingman is going to allow you to pass that control to others. Right? So as a single, you're asking your friends or your family to write your testimonial and give us some insider info into who you are. But then they're also going on to make introductions, to search through various profiles and say, this guy would be great for you. I'm making the introduction. So they're very active, active in that wingman role. So for singles who hate online dating, we've seen so many people come on because traditional online dating has kind of terrified them or they're just not okay with it. And so for us, it's really exciting to see that we're bringing a different category of daters on. And what made you kind of develop it? I mean, where. Where were you in your life? What were you single at the time or, you know, and you were thinking, this is what I need in my life, or you had single friends or what? What was going on? Both. So for me, I came out of a long relationship, and during that time, everyone had kind of moved online. So when I came out of this relationship, I hadn't realized that everybody had moved online. Right. People weren't meeting in bars, and so I was completely hesitant to get involved. I thought it was really weird to kind of have to describe yourself and to kind of, you know, start on that swiping mission. But my girlfriends, my oldest friends were like the most insistent about pushing me back out there. And I don't know about you or for many others, it's like when you come out of a relationship, you're not always at your most confident or things have changed. And so having my friends help to encourage me and put me out there was my first step. The next step was for them writing my profile on current dating sites that so I didn't have to do it myself. And the third was them literally coming around for coffee mornings, going through all the matches and giving me their advice. So it, you know, when I found myself single and living in New York where I was, I was like, I want that. Right? That's what happens in the real world. There should Be something like that. That feels the same, Right. It doesn't feel like a solo journey. You have your friends, your family. It feels like what something like that would happen in a bar scene. And so it was at that point I kind of. The idea for Wingman was planted and I threw myself into research and stuff and then took a leap of faith when I created it. Now Ed has just come online and said, good afternoon. I have never done online dating. I. Real dating is hard enough. I dread thinking about online dating. So what would you say to someone who feels that way, how you do did a few years ago. Oh, my God. I told. I totally hear you. It's like there are the. Some of my best friends who I think are the best people I know will not use online dating still. Right. So no matter, you know, they're in their 30s, but there's still that uncomfortableness about dating online kind of strangers. And so for me, being able to actually say, my friend is great. This is why you should meet them, because it allows me to kind of push them forward. And so I would say to Ed, you don't have to like online dating. Right. If you have someone that you care about that knows you pretty well. Family member or a friend. Exactly. Yeah. Family or friend. They just give you that kind of step up to push you out of your comfort zone. And then, you know, as you get into it and you realize it isn't as scary as you may have thought, it's going to get easier. And so there's. I mean, so many people are using online dating right now as the only way. So there's probably lots of people on there that you might not ordinarily have met. So you just have to kind of rip that band aid off. But obviously I think Wingman is the best way to date. But I would say whichever one you do, just throw yourself into it. And as Ed has just said, sorry. Actually, as it happens, I don't need to. But I was just saying. But I think he's raised a question that especially a lot of men are feeling about. You know, how do I go about it without, like, coming across too strong? Because you often hear women complaining about, oh, he raised sex within our first three messages and stuff. And a lot of guys are to going, I don't want to be associated with online dating because it's supposedly it's all these guys just looking for sex. And so I think a lot of men are quite sensitive. You know, some of the good men are really. I'm not that I'm judging People are just looking for sex, because if you're just looking for a fling, both of you, that's great. Do your thing. Have safe sex, though, you know, no glove, no love. So get the condom on. But. But for people who want more, I think it's quite daunting because they figure out it is just a playing field for people who want sex, which is one reason why, you know, I love being part of the wingman family. Because you. It kind of helps you avoid some of that. Well, that's it. There are so many. There are so many pitfalls with traditional online dating, right? And you have the rejection. You have to sell yourself almost. And generally, you know, it's like writing your own cv. You don't. You may exaggerate slight things. It's not actually truthful, right? Somebody wants to know you, they ask for a reference. And so this is a little bit the same, right? Somebody can talk about your great attributes and what you're good at, whereas if you wrote it yourself, you'd sound slightly narcissistic. So having somebody, that's hard because you're supposed to write good things about yourself. And people don't want to sound like narcissists. But like, you're saying, like, there's so many different audiences that are looking at your profile. Like, the guys who might see someone and think it would be funny to say a particular thing. They may have said it in jest. Somebody's taking it the wrong way, like you. It's so. It's so difficult to kind of really create that in person feeling, right? So for me, you know, hey, people getting in touch. Hey. Because people have all of these. All of the kind of baggage that brings them to these dating sites, it's kind of really hard to navigate that, to actually find out, do I like this person? Would we get on? You have to go through so many things to even get to that point. So for me, being able to bypass the rejection and the awkwardness and saying, hey, my friend would be a great match for you. Do you like them? That, for me, was kind of an active. I was being active, but also creating some positive momentum, not just being a shoulder to cry on or simply swiping for somebody. Funny enough, when I wrote my last dating guide, which is. I was writing it in 2014, I think came out in 2015. The research then said that by 2015, 50% of singles will be trying some form of online dating. So there's this huge wealth of people out there trying. And since 2015, it will only have escalated. And with lockdown, which is what I want to get to, it's hard being single this year. I can't imagine how hard that is. And I wondered if you had any, you know, anecdotes of people who've been successful finding love during lockdown or any tips that you would give people who are looking for love now when it's really difficult to actually have face to face meetings. Do you know what? Yes, it is really. It's a completely different set of problems we have now than the thought. You know, like you say in pre pandemic, there people are online swiping, hooking up, right? That culture of hookup culture, a real throwaway attitude to being able to meet somebody in one mile within 10 minutes. And having that there hasn't always led to great relationships, right. Could maybe lead to a bit of fun, but it doesn't necessarily lead to a good match. So one of the things that we've seen on Wingman is, is a real slow down approach, right? People are taking longer to speak to somebody, they want to know somebody much better than before because we have the safety feature with Corona. But also people are nervous, people are cautious and if anything this year has taught us, it's like you just don't have to rush anything, right? Everyone's kind of been a bit stuck in their tracks and so. So yes, it has slowed down and it hasn't become as kind of frantic with the swiping, but with that, people are reporting that they are meeting better matches, they're looking deeper into profiles than they would have before and they actually ended up making friends as well as relationships because of that patience. See, that's kind of what I've been hearing in my role is date coaching. And I still do sort of Skype sessions and stuff. Stuff, nothing face to face, but about people actually at first being panicked in March, like, I've just got single again and I want to find love. You know, what am I going to do to actually having their attitudes reshaped like that and thinking, actually I can actually get to know someone without the pressure that we're going to. When are we going to have sex? You know, third date sex, first date sex, six dates, you know what, what's the rule for sex? Which talking about that, I always say to you, it should be your rule, it should not be someone else's rule. So whatever date you want to do it on, Whether it's date one or date 101, it's your rule. But I think then people realize that there were These benefits, you know, yeah, for us it's, you know, we've had, as we have, our community is singles, but it also includes their friends and family. So some sometimes talking about somebody else. You can be a little bit more honest than you may be about yourself. So we see all of, you know, people feedback with tons of information as to what's been happening. And even still, some of our wingmen users have said, I've introduced my friend to all these different people and they've come online and they've seen, like, there's seven matches for them and they're so happy and they're really thankful to me. And the first thing they want to do is speak to me rather than any of their matches because they want to, you know, reinforce that friendship connection to say thank you for doing that for me. So it's kind of a bit of a karmic loop because it is about wingman, but it is also about your friendships and those people that are helping you get through it. So I would say, yes, it is terrifying dating in a pandemic because it's tough, but it's also really tough out of a pandemic. I have friends who've been single for years and they've been going out every Wednesday to Saturday. It's like you have to be in the right mindset, the right timing to meet that person. And you, you know, it could happen at the supermarket or it could happen online. I think for us being in real life, having to meet people in real life for that more casual hookup with, avoiding all of that, right? We don't have to do it. There's no. You don't need to feel all awkward. We did a survey of singles saying, if somebody said to you, why don't you come over? What would you do? And 81% of single said they would unmatch them immediately because they would just see them as shady. So it's interesting. So it's interesting that some of those things have become red flags. And just a quick comment. Ed has made a point about do you think not being able to meet anyone at the office has made a big difference? Well, traditionally, of course, about 30% of couples have met at the office, you know, so people not being. People being furloughed, I think has probably made a big difference to sort of the romance and how people hook up. Despite, you know, being online, being online for online dating being so popular now, there's still that office thing. Well, listen, I have to let you go now. It's been amazing talking to you. Thank you so much Andrew. Thank you for having me. Tina Wilson of Wingman App and I want to thank everybody for listening today and I hope they've taken some of the information Singles and Dating who you're looking for what can possibly come come to you when you're looking? Is it something about your childhood? Do you bring people into your life who remind you of what your parents had or have you moved past that and you're looking for something that brings you harmony and compatibility? These things are all so important. And do try online dating. Just always do so safely. Just like if you were going to a nightclub, you'd be safe. You wouldn't go home with the first person you met. So it's always about safety and looking after yourself. I'll be back in a fortnight for this Christmas Eve special. I've got lots of fun guests. We're going to have a blast. And of course there'll always be some well being advice. Thank you so much. Are you feeling anxious? Online therapy 247 is here to help. We offer confidential support from the comfort of your own sofa. Our highly qualified therapists are experienced in a full range of daily challenges. You'll be in safe and trusted hands. Don't suffer alone. Change your life by calling us on 0207-553-5080 and check out our website onlinetherapy247.com.