Trending With Dr. Pam Spurr – Melody Hossaini, Dr. Wendy Suzuki

Hello and welcome. I'm Dr. Pam Spurr. You're here with me every fortnight on a Thursday at 2 o' clock on the men's and the women's radio station. Now, I want to remind you that you can follow us on all the usual social media platforms. When we go out live on a Thursday, you can comment from the men's radio station social media platforms. But of course, then when it's repeated Friday at 4 on both the women's and the men's radio station, it goes out as an audio radio show. Now, two weeks ago, you may remember, I had a raging cold and a really bad cough and two weeks later, I still have a really bad voice. So let's hope that my voice doesn't go. Now, I have two fantastic guests and I'm delighted that they'll be joining me. The very first one is the CEO of Inspiration Engage International. She's a mindset and personal growth life coach who's appeared on the Apprentice and is a keynote speaker and social entrepreneur. On social media. You can find herlodyhosseini and melodyhoseni.com and I'm delighted that Melody joins me now. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, and you popped up a little earlier than I thought you would. I'm here, ready to go. Exactly. Melody, you've had such a career and I just want to take you back to the time of The Apprentice Series 7, when I think you came up. See, there goes my voice already. You came up with the team name Venture. Yes. God, you're taking me back. Now, tell me about that experience and whether you feel it's kind of informed your career since that time. Thank you so much for the question and thank you so much for having me. I'm so delighted to be here. So, yes, the Apprentice is a really interesting time, really quite surreal. I mean, when I now hear the music, I'm just like, sends, like, chills down my spine because it takes me back to those Wednesday nights when we watched it for the first time when it was on tv. I mean, we didn't get to watch it before, but Apprentice was something which I really pushed myself out of my comfort zone. I mean, anyone who does a TV show like that, unless you're going on just to appear on tv, you're pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. And I mean, you'll know because, you know, you've got experience in TV and things like that, but it is just such a strange experience, you know? But, yes. So 75,000 people applied and I was one of the eight women that they chose to go on the show. And I kind of. The reason I went on the show was because I really wanted to bring social enterprise to what was a dog eat dog business world. I wanted to bring something with a social impact to the table. And I went in and just did my best every week. I'm not gonna lie and say it was easy because it wasn't. No, no. And the thing is, being on it is very different to what you see on tv. You know, it is very difficult. It does push you out of your comfort zone. And there was this article I remember that said that I've been held at gunpoint, but being on the Apprentice was scarier. It literally was like a headline. And actually I think I may have even said that. And that has actually unfortunately happened to me. But my goodness, you have to tell me about that. I was so young and, you know, when you were a child, you're so resilient, you know, your system is just bounces back. And it was when we were living in Sweden because we are war refugees from Iran. And then I immigrated to Sweden. We fled to Sweden. I grew up there. I lived there for 11 years. And it was an incident when I was 12 years old. My brother and I were home. Our parents owned a business and a restaurant and sometimes they both needed to urgently be there and whatever. So my brother and I were home alone and suddenly someone knocks on the door. My brother rushes and opens the door without looking to see who it is, make mistake. And I can see from the living room there was a man with a gun that just pushed him in, came into the home. We lived in an apartment. So at that moment you do just run for an exit, but it was the balcony and he came the other side and just pointed a gun to my face and said no. And he sat us down and he gagged us. There were two of them. They gagged us, roped us up and threw us into a wardrobe and said, if your mother comes home while we're here, we will kill her. Which was a horrific, heartless thing to say to two children. Very cruel, very cruel. And my brother was in kind of hysterical, whereas I was actually. And you can't predict how you're going to be in extreme situations like that. Whereas I was very, very calm, all the while thinking, you know, anyway, long story short, they were sent by people we know to come and take something very specific, which they did. And my mom came home, I kid you not. Two seconds after they left, they actually crossed each Other on the stairs. We later found out and my mom came home and she was like, melody Milad, where are you thinking we're playing hide and seek? Because we sometimes would do that. And then when she opened this wardrobe door and saw her two children gagged and roped up, I just cannot believe. This is horrible. She just couldn't even undo us because she was in so much shock. She was just kind of walking around the house, like, trying to just digest what, what. What had happened. Well, I undid ask. The two of us at that point ran to the phone and it's so funny the way our mind works. Earlier that day, before someone knocked on the door, there was a new advert in Sweden for the new telephone number for the police. And that crazy moment, that image came to my head and I called that new number. And anyway, they never caught those people. And, you know, the next day I was like, I need to go to school. I've got projects to do, the geek that I was, you know, and it's like, it's so funny how resilient a system you can have that you really aren't aware of. And sometimes in milder circumstances, you know, you can think like you're in overdrive, whereas actually you're probably using a small percentage of what you're capable of using. Absolutely. And does anything trigger you for that, or did you literally deal with the trauma and you just seem to ride the wave and you just carried on with your life? It's a good question. I mean, in Sweden, they send you to psychological support automatically whenever any child has had any incident. And I went there and I remember the psychologist, she, you know, she did different things with me and whatever. And then she said to the police report, she was like, she doesn't need to come back. She's. I was unaffected to a large degree. But what does trigger me is any kind of game where you point a gun at me, even with your hand. It just kind of. I don't like that feeling. So going to something like paintballing or like even hide and seek, like if I feel someone's coming for me, you know, I don't like that feeling. That's the only thing that really, that has stayed with me is that image of someone pointing a gun at you. I can't do any jokey things. But other than that, I'm glad something like that happened, if it was ever going to happen when I was young, because I think if it happened now, I don't think, because I think a lot and I've Got children and so much to lose. I think as a child, you're just resilient. Your system just deals with things a lot better. At least mine does. I would love to know how your mother dealt with it, because when one of my children was about 14, they were hit by a car who ran a Pelican crossing when it was red for the car, and they were thrown up in the air. They were smashed onto the pavement. I got a phone call, a passerby. Oh, I can understand. She did so well. She never was traumatized. The only thing she didn't like is if you watch Casualty and someone gets smacked by a car, then she will turn away. Of course, I'm the one who was traumatized. Yeah. Yeah. So I wonder how your mother felt. Did she. Well, I mean, you know, it'd be interesting for me to ask her, to be honest, I think, because my mom. And, like, mothers, you'll know this. We are so. We just. We just stay strong for our children, don't we? We protect them over everything. So she. So she's never actually told me, actually, and it's never occurred to me to, actually. Because we've had so many things happen in our lives, unfortunately, so many ups and downs that I think we've never really sat down and said, mom, how did you feel? Because I think we just. We just were like. Because after that incident, we actually packed up everything and we moved to England. We started from zero. We were on benefits. We. My mom used to work night shifts. We were three kids. You know, we just kind of started from zero in this country, and we just got on with it. You know, you just get on with it, and that resilience kicks in, and it allows me now to do the job that I do. Being, you know, being a mindset coach and mindset speaker is that I appreciate the human process because you yourself have lived it. And that allows you to really understand the complexity of how human beings function in terms of our mind and how we cope and what we think and how important our attitude is, because it almost defines the outcome. Yes. A lot isn't in our control. Like that incident. It's not my fault. It's not my brother's fault. It's not my mom's fault. It's something that was without our control, but how we then go forward is my control. It's my responsibility. And the more I feel like that, the more I can do about it. If I feel like, oh, my God, I'm such a victim. It's just. It's affected Me forever. And I use it as an excuse, and I'm talking on a personal level now that. That will rob me of an ability to actually just kind of deal with it and say, you know what, what I do now is what's important. I think you're absolutely right and it's very interesting. And I wish I had your mother here. Yeah. I've had in my life, I've processed, and I know this. This child of mine that got hit by the car, how well they've done and we've talked about it, but it is with me, I'm. I'm worse about it and, And I've never discussed that with her because I don't want to add the way it impacted me. But when you see your child raced, you know, in an ambulance, oh, after such a horrible thing, that wasn't their fault, that was someone else's fault. And they, you know, they ran a red light and he lost his license and, you know, blah, blah, blah. But it's. I think it's different when you're a mother and you're just like, oh, my goodness, you know, this is my child, my baby. You know, 100%. You're so right. And I love what you've just said, because when my work as a coach, I'm always trying to empower people to see the power they have to move forward, process any trauma they've had and the strength and abilities they have to become a survivor rather than go into victim mode, as you've mentioned. And I think there's a really big difference in empowering people. And yes, people have to embrace their trauma. They have to roll with it when it happens. They have to accept those emotions, the whirlwind of emotions that come. And once they've gone through that initial post trauma phase, then, as you say, you start making personal choices. So tell me, this brings me nicely to one of my first questions for you. How did you get into personal growth and development? Was it after the Apprentice or. Or some other point? Yeah, no, thank you. So basically my career actually started when I was 13 years old. And this is actually one of the things which, being on a show like Apprentice, you have to combat is that obviously people think that everything happens because of the Apprentice. And it really was. I remember the Independent did a newspaper article on the candidates and about me, they wrote, if Melody has achieved what she says she's achieved at the age of 26, which is what I was then, then she. Oh, if she's achieved all the things she says she's Achieved. She must be 82 or something. I mean, you know, because I. Because I started when I was 13 years old. So at the age of 13, when we moved to England, when we started from zero and I was being bullied at school and English was my third language and I didn't understand a lot of the things that were happening. You know, we were dealing with a lot of things. You know, we'd left our family, my parents were divorced. There was so much happening. And, you know, when I was 13, I remember thinking, I can either drown, because that's what it felt like. I mean, it was a very difficult time. I can either drown or I can just divert attention. And now it amazes me that I had that thought at the age of 13. But maybe through the things we'd gone through and sometimes adversity is a builder in, you know, character. I kind of had realized that actually, you know what? I need to find something else. And I. And I remember thinking, it feels good to be useful. It feels good to make a difference. So I was reading a magazine and I don't know if you remember now, just Seventeen magazine, right? This girly J. Seventeen. When I was 17, they had it right, so just been around for years. It's not anymore. No one knows. I'm sure there's so many magazines. Anyway, so then I saw in this article saying, do you want to get young people's voices heard? And you know, all this. So anyway, long story short, I became one of the co founders of something called UK Youth Parliament. So that was all about campaigning to get young people's voices heard. We had a meeting with Tony Blair, you know, and it's still around now. It's one of the world's most successful youth democratic organizations in the world. So I became involved with that. So when my friends were having fun on a Saturday, chilling in town, have I frozen. Am I here? Can you hear me? No, you're fine now. You're fine. Good. Yeah. So I was there in the Houses of Parliament thinking about better ways of doing things. That saved me. I mean, it really did, you know, just making a difference. So then from there I developed an interest in people. I just love people. I love human process. I love human style stories. I just. The amount of people I've met on trains and buses and planes, you know, I'm just interested in people. So that became my career, you know, So I did a law degree, but I decided not to pursue that and instead follow my passion, which was in human development. So I started training people first I Started training, you know, so just like, how do we create change? How do we empower people? But then I realized, actually, it's not about strategy or product process. It's about the human being and what they think of themselves. You know, and it all starts with our identity. What do you think of your own ability? Do you like who you are? You know, these are all very important questions that unlocks each individual's potential to fulfill whatever it is they want to be. It's not about devising a goal that's universal. It's about very individual people that can then create magic through just shifting a few things in their mindset that then allows them to be their happiest. And that's what's important. I love that sense of what you've just described. And often when I'm working with people, I find I say to them, do you know the whole life that you've been living since you were tiny, you've been carrying around a basket and people put messages in it. Your parents might have said to you, oh, you're, you know, your brother's the clever one. You won't go to college. Don't worry about it. You can get a job in the local shop. You know, your school teacher might have said, oh, you are the. You're so difficult, you know, that kind of thing, that you've been collecting messages all your life, often from people who don't know better and should have not said those sorts of things to you. And you have to realize that the way you feel about yourself, which is the words you were using about how you feel about. About yourself, often has been impacted, especially in childhood, by those messages that people gave you. And part of the process, I find, in coaching is understanding those messages and how they make your internal voice your monologue. Oh, no, you better not try that, because that's probably out of your, you know, your intelligence level. Or you better not try that, because people always said when you're at school, you wouldn't be good at being creative or something. And it's often about sorting and sifting those messages and so you can actually discover you and your power. And I'm so glad Helen has just joined and says, good afternoon, ladies. And she's often involved in the show, and I know she's gone through lots of personal journeys, so I'm glad she's come in at this point. But do you understand what I'm saying about when you're trying to discover who you are, you sometimes have to get rid of what other people have told you, you are. It's so funny you say, I mean, everybody has different approaches, right? The way that I like to work with my clients, when I do mindset coaching, whether it's our. Because I do a program coaching for kids, which is 4 to 16 year olds, and then I do invest in yourself, which is for adults. And whoever I'm working with, my approach is always, you know what, like that basket that you said, that basket shouldn't in our ideal world exist actually the messages. And if there is such a basket, then the messages in it should be the ones you think of yourself, obviously, in an ideal world. And actually, the more we start, the starting point isn't necessarily in sifting through other people's voices. The starting point should be drawing up a vision of how you see yourself. Because what that will do is when you start in how you view yourself and what your capability is and what you want, if you start from you, then it will be a lot easier to deal with other people's dialogue and voices. Do you see what I mean? I do, yeah. What I was going to say though, is I often find that people, their inner monologue is often reflecting their partner, maybe is saying to them, that is so true. And it's even, as I say, a lot of critical messages get given to you in childhood, but, you know, in the here and now, sometimes it's even a partner or a work colleague. And how do you get someone to. What is your coaching tips, let's say for people who will be listening to the show tomorrow, for someone who is finding, oh, but all I can hear is that other voice telling me, no, you're not good enough. What do you recommend? I'm always keen to hear that. I was invited recently, actually, to deliver training at a college for staff. And I remember asking them, what was the question? Oh, yeah, we were doing an exercise called My Passport, which I will actually talk that this is one of the tips that people could do on a practical level. And I was saying to them, you know, what is your vision and what is your. And all these things about your personal, you know, how do you see your. What are your traits? And then she was saying, I don't know, I need to go and ask my partner. And I was thinking, this is a completely personal thing of how you view yourself. So if you need permission, almost. I don't mean permission in its loose sense of the word, you know, for someone to tell you, actually, you know what, I am a kind person. Do you think I'm a kind person? If you need that Validation. And that's so deeply ingrained in the process of how you view yourself. Then let's start there, you know, let's start looking at why that is. And actually we need to give ourselves permission. You decide what picture you hold of yourself and then you can't control what other people hold. So if another person could be your mother, it could be your partner, it could be whomever tells you, you know what, actually, Melody, I don't actually believe you're passionate. I believe you're X, Y, Z. No matter what happens, nobody can impact on the picture. I'm very interested in what people think. Very interested. I absolutely. And being on the Apprentice, you know, kick that into full gear. 9 million views of what people think, but you know, what people think I can entertain. But it doesn't fundamentally change the picture I hold. And I have permission to view myself in that way. And that flags up to me good self esteem, which is so important to how you feel empowered to see your potential. And it's really interesting to hear you say that. And that's something I say to clients. You may have these other voices, your partner may be saying you're not good enough, you shouldn't go for that promotion or whatever. But what do you think? Take them out of the equation. Let's start dealing with you. And I love what you've just reflected about yourself because that's the goal we want to reach, where you have good enough self esteem to combat those external voices which may have their own agenda. And Helen's saying yes, she likes that. What? You were just saying that. Yes, you have to get rid of those other voices and focus on you and have your picture. And I have a tool actually, it's actually on my homepage, on my website for free. Melodyhussaini.com if you go down, there's a tool called MyPongsport and on this tool it's a really simplified version of it. It's just, you know what, take a blank piece of paper, put it in front of you, write your name big at the top and then answer some questions about yourself, such as, what is my vision? Like, what are my values? You know, values. What's the kind of the compass in my life that's guiding me? What's important to, to me? You know, what are my unique traits? What are my goals? You know, like. And sometimes it's difficult for people to commit to that, you know, like they find it a bit scary to even think. But the more you entertain your mind down that road with yourself, you know, introspection is so important that you're building this relationship with yourself that you're allowing your mind to go and ask and then commit to a picture of you. And it doesn't matter if that picture changes. We can't all be the same. This is like an ongoing process. You know, check in with yourself every time you have a new experience. You may start a new job, you may become a mother or a parent, whatever. These are all things which affect you. So you go back and you introspect again and you always build up, but you get to decide. You have the permission to think of yourself however you want to be. And you can't control what someone else. And they have a right to their own perception because everybody looks through their own lens, which says something about them. And I hate it when people say, don't care what people think. We would live in a very dangerous world if we went around saying nobody should care what people think. That's confidence. I think absolutely, that's a dangerous thing. I care deeply what people think. Everyone should care what we all think, but what we think. And once you what that. Yeah, can't fundamentally change what you think of yourself. And that's what's important. And it's really interesting what you say, because I used to ask clients to think in ink and get a pen to paper. Of course now they're doing it on their iPads, you know, and I haven't thought of a word to say, you know, reflect thinking. So it's just think on your iPad or your laptop, whatever. And to do those sorts of things are so valuable to write down your goal and then like the steps to it. I don't know how you tackle that, but I'm a firm believer in taking a goal and devising the small steps to it so people don't feel overwhelmed, like they want a job promotion or they want to change career. That's a massive goal. Let's look at the little steps towards that goal. And how do you tackle that? Do you go in the steps? Yeah, I have a client, actually, who he has a lot going on. He has a very, very successful career and recently he's finished his job and then, you know, gone full, kind of, you know, full on with his business that he had and all that. There's a lot going on. He's recently got married and lots of things. And he sometimes comes to me quite overwhelmed and, you know, and I say to him, there is a lot happening. Let's just take stock before you zoom in on what should we do about this issue and what should we do? And it feels like you're firefighting. Let's just take stock first. So what I do is I literally get the board. I draw a picture of him in the middle. And then I said, we mind map. Tell me what's going on. What are the topics? So he's like, the business, okay, the business, right? You've got your agency, you've got things happening. What else? You know, I've got the X, Y, Z. Right? So we get it all down. It's moved house. Okay, so you're moving house, right? Get it all down. I'm like, okay, right? These are five things right now. Okay? There's five things in your life happening. What's the time frame for the moving house? Oh, it'll be done by June. Okay, June, what's the time frame for Da da da da da. I say, okay, right, so now we can see from this we've got five things. Five areas of your life. There are things happening in. Okay, but most of these you'll be done by. In his case, it was June. Right? So after June, you've got quite quiet period. You can then get back to this and build this. And all of a sudden he's like, right, you're right, right. And sometimes it's just before the steps and before zooming in, sometimes it helps to step back and just say, what's the bigger picture? Actually? Because otherwise what happens is your mind gets overwhelmed. Because when you zoom in and you're like trying to. You're trying to do the right thing, you're trying to do the steps, you're trying to. But then you're like, oh, but I can't because there's so much else happening. But actually if you take the so much else into perspective and then zoom in, then you suddenly feel, you know what? I'm in control because I'm coming at it from this perspective. It is so much about control, isn't it? What you say? It's, you know, and often high achievers because they're hygiene going on in their life that they often then end up feeling out of control. And what you've just described is so similar to how I work with people and trying to get them to feel in control of what they can and let go of what they can't control. The 12 step program, which I often say to people who I'm coaching, who don't have alcohol issues, drug issues, sex addiction, whatever, the 12 step program is something we should all learn to do one day at a time. What can we manage what is in our control, what is not in our control? And that sounds so much like the process you're describing. I can't believe we are almost out of time. I know. Let me just get to. I know you work with groups too, but I just want to keep it on the individual level because we have our time short. To anyone who listens to the show tomorrow, what would you say? What's the first goal? To change your life in whatever way you're hoping to change your life. What do you say? What is the first step? I think the first thing to say is that we are living in very difficult times, actually, and it shouldn't be understated. You know, a lot of people are struggling within themselves. There's a lot of changes, and people get affected by that. So as much as, you know, people like us who are motivational speakers or whatever, I can say, you know, oh, you know, just do this, do that, do that. Everyone's starting point is different. And I empathize and appreciate that. Everyone's, you know, step forward will look differently. So you do what is right for you. But one thing I would say is no matter how you're feeling, just sitting down and checking in with yourself, who am I and what do I want? Start there, ask yourself, and give yourself the permission to actually answer that and then write it down. And that, I think, is a great starting point because it starts with you. So when you know the answer to that, everything else happening in your life can be slotted into the right place. Now that's excellent. And a very quick question. What shade is your nail varnish? It is a kind of a pink. Mine is too pale. I love that color. What brand is it? That is not the color. I mean, there's a whole story to it. I love that color. We don't have time for the story. Oh, do it. Yes. No, I can't tell you a story, but this is the end result. Well, listen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you. People can find you@melodyhosseini.com on social medialodyhosseini and I strongly advise they get on board and follow you. Excellent advice. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Again, thank you for your time. Thanks so much. Take care. Thank you for having me. Thank you. And Helen says great color. Now, I'm delighted my next guest is going to be joining me all the way from New York. She's a professor of neuroscience and psychology at New York University. She's the author of a brand new book and it's called Good Anxiety Harnessing the power of the most understood emotion on social media. She's at Wasuzuki and her website is wendysazuki.com and I hope she's here now. Hello, Wendy. Hello. How are you? I'm so well. I'm so glad that you are doing fine because of all the reports of the. The terrible weather in New York City. Yeah, I know when we spoke earlier, you're okay, and I'm so glad that you're not even disrupted with your electricity even, you know. Yeah, fingers crossed I'll have good connectivity for the rest of this interview. But, yes, we're definitely bringing out in the city. And it was just this surprise flash. I was. I was getting flash flood warnings all through the night, including at 3am so it was a big one. But I think we're recovering now. That's great. Now, before we get into talking about your book, I first want to know what was your journey into this particular field of neuropsychology and neuroplasticity and anxiety? Tell me about that. So I have a very, very specific journey into my interest in neuroscience. And it happened the very first day of my freshman year at university. I was at UC Berkeley in California, and I took a freshman seminar class, which was a small class with just 15 students and a full professor talking about his or her passion. And the class that I chose was called the Brain and its Potential, taught by who turned out to be an extraordinary teacher, Professor Marion Diamond. And she was very dramatic and not just an amazing teacher, but she had a show woman in her. And she had a hat box at the front of the classroom. And she told us that the brain, our brain, the one in our heads, is the most complex structure known to humankind. As she was regaling us with all the things our brain did for us, she opened that hat box with her gloved hands and she pulled out a real preserved human brain. And freshmen went. And so, learning about the brain and her studies of brain plasticity, which is the brain's extraordinary ability to change and adopt to the environment in which you put your own brain, I said, I want to study that, and I want to be just like her. And so she became my role model. To this day, she is the most extraordinary teacher that I've ever had in the classroom. And to this day, I continue to study brain plasticity. Isn't that wonderful when someone, you know, creates such a zest for a topic? I remember my high school psychology teacher. I wanted to be a medical doctor. There's a lot of medical doctors in my family. And my high school psychology teacher was so great. And then I went on to do physiology anatomy. Freshmen could not bear even dissecting the cats that we were first given. And I said to my parents, I can't even dissect a cat. I mean, I've always had cats. Cat and dog lover. I said, there's no way I can dissect a human. I couldn't have coped if I'd seen that brain that you saw. And I was thinking back to my psychology professor. Psychology professor. My psychology high school teacher. And I thought, that is another subject that he just. Even though I've been thinking medical school. Medical school, I went back and thought, no, he was the best, you know, teacher in high school that I had. So the same thing. He inspired that sort of thing way back at the high school level. Yeah. When I realized there was no way I'd ever be a medical doctor. So it's always nice to hear someone else having such a inspiration from a teacher. Yeah, we don't celebrate them enough. Exactly, exactly. So I know she has inspired so many people, if not to become a professor themselves, then just to love the science that she was sharing with us. So I totally agree. Now let's get on to the subject of anxiety. Yeah. It almost feels. Pardon me. I warned you. I'm gonna lose it. Yes, yes. Foreign. It's almost like we have. Sorry, I'm going again. This happened two weeks ago. An anxiety plague. Yes. So tell me about that. Yeah. So I have to start with the fact that I wrote this book before the coronavirus started. So. And I. I came onto this topic of anxiety simply by looking at the students surrounding me, my undergraduate students at New York University, and just feeling and seeing much higher levels of anxiety and test anxiety than I had seen before. And it wasn't just them. It was myself noticing in myself, in my colleagues, in my friends, and even before. Before the coronavirus started worldwide. Do you know how many people raise their hands? How many Americans raise their hands when asked? Do you feel anxious? I can imagine. It's a huge number. Please tell me. It was. This was before the pandemic. Now, 90%, 90% of Americans raised their hands, identifying with suffering from anxiety. And of course, those levels have gone up. And so that was the reason I wanted to tackle this topic and the book. Now, let me just clarify, though. Can you retrospectively compare that to, like, say, two decades ago, like, studies of anxiety? How many people, say, in America would say that? Is there any comparable work to maybe show that over the last couple decades this has gone up or has it always been there? And maybe people weren't so happy about raising their hand and saying I'm anxious. Yeah, that's a great point. I think both of those are probably true. I think there has been an increase, a slow increase overall. We know from reports that things like the 24, 7 News Feed and the heightened use of social media and some of the ways that those outlets can affect our mental health. And in fact we know since the pandemic one of the groups that have been affected most with clinical anxiety. And in a second I'm going to make a really important statement about that. One of those groups that have increased in clinical levels of anxiety or adolescent girls. And we know that those social media kinds of feeds can be very, very devastating for mental health. Now having said that, my book Good Anxiety doesn't address clinical anxiety. Clinical level anxiety, which needs to be treated by medical professional like a broken leg, it's a different beast. But as we all appreciate, anxiety exists on a spectrum. I am talking about and this book addresses the majority of that 90 plus percent that suffer from what I call everyday anxiety. You may not need to go to the doctor for this yet it is draining it, it affects you, it affects your productivity, it affects your happiness. And that's why I wrote the book that has become even more relevant since the start of the pandemic. Yeah, since you've mentioned that. So how would someone listening to the show tomorrow, how would they know? Yeah, what are the markers that you think would tell them? I actually need to see my GP here in England and talk about this or how would they know if it is, as you say, kind of everyday anxiety that might diminish their life a bit. But it's not, you know, clinical anxiety. How do people tell that? So that's a really great question. And I would say that if you do have that clinical grade anxiety, this is something that is stopping you in your tracks. This is not like, oh, it's hard for me to get out of the house because I have social anxiety, but it is keeping you from going out of your house and living, living your life. It's, it's. If you have that level of worry all the time that is stopping you in your tracks. That is when you need to go see your gp. But also know that, that all of us are, are suffering from this. And I think one of the things that I think is so important about this book is, is I really wrote it as an invitation to be more open with our own mental health, start talking about it, including. And here I want to embrace everybody from those that suffer from clinical levels of anxiety to so many others that have anxiety. That is embarrassing, it's worrisome, it causes shame in people. And the message is, look, 90% plus of everybody that you see has the same thing. Let's talk about it. Let's be open. Yes, start that conversation. That is such an excellent message. Now, I want, before we get into sort of like the advice you give in your book and that thing, setting a little more background. Yeah. A lot of people say to me when I'm coaching things like, oh, I'm so stressed, I'm so stressed. And, and I think we've, we've got confused between stress and anxiety. And I wonder, what is your perspective on that? Yeah, that is also a great kind of background question or foundational question. And the answer is that anxiety is one of our emotions. It is an emotion that comes with fear, associated mainly with the unknown or uncertainty situations. So one can imagine that the global coronavirus pandemic and all the variants is a fertile ground for inspiring higher levels of anxiety. So that is the definition of the emotion of anxiety. Most of us can say, yes, I know what you're talking about. Now, what causes anxiety? Anxiety stimulates that, that, that fear of uncertain situations. You hear something new about the coronavirus and you have, you know what feels like an anxiety attack? That physiological feeling. The butterflies in your stomach, the sweaty palms are caused by a physiological stress response that is undergirded by a part of the nervous system called the sympathetic nervous system. It's also called the fight or flight part of our nervous system. And it was evolved to help us flee from danger. Used to be 2.5 million years ago, there is physical danger. Think lions and tigers and bears. Saber tooth tiger. Yes. Woolly mammoth. Yeah, exactly that, that level. But it's important to realize that that that same exact fight or flight system that that was there 2.5 million years ago is also in US. Same exact thing. It's important to realize that. So it was designed to address a physical danger. And so it, it puts blood into your muscles so that you can fight or run away really fast and save your life. It increases your heart rate, it increases your respiration. Great. It does a great job. Well, the problem is today. Oh, sorry, big message. Why is that so important? It is protective. It was evolved to protect us. This stress and the anxiety that, that, that stimulates the stress system evolved to protect us. It's a good thing and most people are like, yeah, there's nothing good about my anxiety. Right. Why, why is that? Well, because now our anxiety and that that corresponding stress response is being triggered all the time, 24 7. First thing you read in the newspaper, first feed that you see on your phone triggers some little form of anxiety. And too much of any good thing, including any protective thing in our life, is bad. And so our first issue is that our anxiety, our global individual anxiety levels are turned way up in the volume. And so we've lost that protective aspect. And. But so when people say I feel stressed, I often try and get them to pick apart exactly what they mean. Actually. Do they mean they feel anxious or actually did they have too many tasks given them at work that day and it just kind of made them jumpy and feel stressed or whatever. And I think people tend to use that interchangeably. And do you think that's okay coming from your perspective? Yeah. In fact, in the intro chapter for good anxiety, I, I list all the things that I was hearing again before the pandemic that made me start honing in on anxiety. And people would say, I feel stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I can't, I'm tired, even I can't handle it. And I realized as I heard it so much and as I complained to myself and my own friends, how are you doing? Oh, there's too much going on. Right? That is the standard answer certainly here in New York City. That's my answer right now. Too much going on. And right now I think all of those are part and parcel of this collective increase in level of anxiety that we are feeling now. When I'm talking to, say, a coaching client, I often talk about the old bell shaped curve of anxiety. And I say, you know, a little bit of anxiety is a good thing and it keeps you on your toes. Let's look at why it's kind of spinning out of control. So as you say, there is this kind of spectrum and that bell shaped curve is in it where, you know, your performance decreases when it, when that anxiety gets too high. Right. Now, how can people early in, say, feeling anxious? Right. They've had a difficult time at work, let's say they're having a difficult time working remotely because of COVID What are the first steps you recommend in your book in dealing with those feelings that maybe then will get too high and, you know, everything, you know, it really affects their performance at work or in their relationship or whatever? Yeah, yeah. So that is a great place to start. And in fact, I spend a lot of Time talking about that in the book. What is the thing that I could use right now? I'm starting to get anxious. I'm about to go on the Dr. Pam Spears show and I want to make sure I'm giving good answers. You know, I, I, and I don't want to go on the other side of that bell curve, which in fact is in. We have that exact bell curve in the book, except explaining exactly what you just, what you just articulated there. So how do I do that? I, I'm starting to get a little bit nervous. The best way to quell those feelings of anxiety so it doesn't spin you over the top of that bell curve is to activate the equal and opposite part of our nervous system to that sympathetic fight or flight response that is increasing cortisol and making, making our heart rate go up. That part of our nervous system is called the parasympathetic nervous system. And the best way to activate that immediately is deep breathing. Why? Because what does it do? It decreases our heart rate, it decreases in depth, it increases the depth of our, of our breathing, and it actually brings blood to, back to our digestive and reproductive systems. I can't do that consciously. I can't decrease my heart rate and change my blood flow consciously, but I can deepen my breathing consciously. And I love to recommend four part or boxed breathing, which is a four count on an inhale, a four count holding it at the top, a four count on an exhale, and a four count holding at the bottom. I like, I like those numbers because I was doing a kind of a co coaching session with a couple other coaches to learn about techniques. Yes. Like a year or two ago and the person was advocating, you know, the four count, breathe in, then like a seven count hold and an eight count, you know, release of breath. And I just couldn't get my head around those numbers because like, I'm a runner. And although I'm struggling with this terrible voice issue since that horrible virus, I've got really good breath control as a runner for all my life. And I couldn't do the breathing out for eight. I was like, and I'm so glad you do the four technique because that's what I would recommend. Okay, good, good. I'm not doing this right. I can't do it. But you're, I'm really pleased to hear that. Yes. So it's, it's great. And, and I would say that it can also work even if you've kind of gone down to the depth of a, of an anxiety attack. Now what do I recommend? Give it a try. You don't want to try it for the very first time in the middle of an anxiety attack? Try it. Try it when you're feeling better, just to get into the groove of it and feel. I can't, I can't believe every single time I do it for a group, you could feel, you can hear me get more relaxed as I just lead it, because you force yourself to slow down. And it really is this, this immediate, immediate effect. So that is the first, first way in. The second way in is physical activity. I also have studied in my lab the effects of physical activity. And, and while breathing is kind of immediate. I can be breathing while you're asking the question if I'm starting to get anxious. And so it's, it's, it's kind of invisible. You can do it by yourself. Physical activity is also very, very powerful. You can go take a walk. I can't do that in the middle. But walking outside, walking up and down the stairs, get your heart rate up just a little bit. That literally gives your brain what I like to call a wonderful neurochemical bubble bath of dopamine, serotonin, and noradrenaline. You see, I'm loving this because when I've worked with phobic clients before, the very first thing we talk about is breathing and relaxing the big muscle groups. Yes. In the face of your phobic stimulus. Because when you learn those techniques, when you're not stressed and you're not confronting your phobia, maybe it's getting a lift at work or something. It's so valuable when you've relaxed your body, your breathing, to then face what caused you the anxiety, which basically, when you think about a phobia, you get anxious in the face of your phobia. So I think that is such excellent advice. But people often say to me, oh, but it's my mind that's anxious, not my body. I'm going, no, no, no, no, no. Everything freezes up. Tense, you know, and. Yes, and, and so, yeah, I mean, I, I just think that's, that's such a great starting point for people who are listening, will listen tomorrow. Tell me what you would then recommend next. Yes. So I think one of the core principles in my book is the idea of getting more comfortable and getting, making friends with those more uncomfortable emotions that accompany anxiety. It's not about, and the book does not promise, I'm going to get rid of all your fear and anxiety. You'll never have that ever in the world. Why because it is protective for us. We want it. So it's actually a lot of our energy and ambition comes from that energy of anxiety. So we're not getting rid of it. But one of the most surprising things that I learned while writing this book is I found myself making friends with my own anxiety. Now this is not a warm and cuddly friend, it's kind of a prickly friend. I think we all know what those, they tell it like it is. Yeah. And what I mean by that is I found myself looking at where that fear came from. What does it tell me about my values? What does it tell me on a positive stance about my life rather than just the kind of knee jerk reaction of get that fear away. I hate fear. I don't want to even deal with fear. And so it's, it's really a self reflection that is a really, really important part of this. Once you get your anxiety down using breathing, using movements, using one of the 40 tools that I provide in the book, then you can start looking at your difficult emotions and asking where does it come from? What does it teach me? How can I be creative in exploring that in a way that is not just reflexively trying to get away and never thinking about it again? Yeah. It's almost like stepping back and almost the way you sometimes assess a family member or a friend or work colleague and you look and you think, wow, you know, why are they so anxious? What is it about them? And you often reflect about people you care about who are going through hard times, but it's time to reflect about yourself when you're going through those hard times. Yeah. Which is so valuable. I wish I'd been sent the book. Oh, I'm so sorry. I could do with reading it right now. Having just done the house move and a family members ill and then I got ill. Oh, I want to read it. Thank you. So that, that is a really good next step and anything. We have a few more minutes. Tell me what you would like to, you know, reveal from your book. What do you think is important for people to hear tomorrow? Yeah. So I think there's two more key pieces of information that I want to share. The first is that it's just following along. So we've decreased, we turned the volume down on that anxiety so we get it back into that more protective mode. We have self reflected on the, the, the information and the wisdom that can come from these negative emotions. What's causing it? What it, what did it tell me about myself? And then the, I think one of the Big kind of wonderful aspects of this book is the gifts or superpowers that come from anxiety. And so you might think what, I've never gotten a gift from my anxiety. And let me just share one of my favorites. And that is a superpower of empathy. So this comes, and this superpower comes directly from one of my personal, longest standing anxieties, which is social anxiety. So as a young girl, I was very, very shy, high school wallflower, always wanted to be at the dance, but always was the wallflower. And I would say, I can't believe that because, you know, friendly and outgoing. I have skills now, but I can tell you that, that ask any of my high school friends, they will, they will, they will agree with me. And then even in my academic career in college, I remember being there in class and really wanted to ask that question, but being scared that I'm going to be wrong. And it's very scary to do that. Well, of course I've gotten over certain aspects of that social anxiety, becoming a teacher. And I realized that that particular anxiety has become one of my teaching superpowers because even unconsciously, and this is something I learned while writing the book, I realized that I, because of my deep experience with being that shy, awkward student that wanted to participate, I found that from day one, I always tried to arrive early, have more casual conversations before class, after class in case that, you know, there's so many students I know that wanted to ask questions and wanted to be the Hermione Granger. And I love, I love the Hermione Grangers in my class, don't get get me wrong. But I was doing that because I could so empathize with their, with their feelings and, and I realized that that became my own personal superpower. But that's just me, everybody a superpower from their own anxiety. I love something you, you, you just touched on about arriving early. I do a lot of date coaching for singles and I always tell them, yeah, maybe you do not want to be early for the date, but be early to the area of the date so that you can just then relax, give yourself that time so you're not rushing into that first date or you just kind of like panting, you know, you're, you rushed from the tube or from the bus or whatever to get to the general area early, have a walk around, relax your breathing, everything you were saying. Yes. And then you kind of calm your nerves for that, that time when you first meet that person. So, yes, arriving early, but you don't have to show them, you don't have to let them know you were there 10 minutes early. Yeah, just get to the vicinity and then you can calm yourself down. Now let me just give the title of your book again. It is Good Anxiety Harnessing the Power of the Most Understood Emotion. And that's by you and your professor at Of Neuroscience and Psychology at New York University. I've so enjoyed having you Wend. Thank you so much for all that valuable information you've given us and I look forward to seeing your book and I hope people will check it out. Good Anxiety. If they Google that, they'll definitely get to it. And I just want to thank everybody who is listening and for joining in. I'll be back in a fortnight with some more fantastic guests all about well being, as you know, here on the women's and the men's radio stations, it's all about empowering you to make your life better. And I hope you take on board some of Wendy's advice. Thank you again, Wende, and look after yourself until a fortnight when I'll be back with you. And don't forget to check out the other shows on the men's and the women's radio station because you will benefit from all the wonderful guests that we get on these stations. So take care of yourself and I'll see you in a fortnight. Bye. Bye.